Samurai had the win on board. With more than 7 cards in hand and glint-horn on the field, he can flesh duplicate the tandem lookout, soulbond with glint-horn, and go to end step. Discard to hand size, glint-horn triggers, making 3 treasure + drawing 3 cards. You have to clean up again, meaning discard 3 cards, trigger glint-horn again, make 9 treasures and draw 9 cards. Not a rag on samurai, dude was coming out of another tournament less than 24 hours prior to this one. Just wanted to point out the line for educational purposes
Rant about draws: I would say draws are not the problem, but agreed upon draws are. In normal magic they almost never make sense and are super risky. In March of the Machine, I believe, Nathan Steuer and his teammate draw because they didn’t want to destroy the good record they had, and it screwed up their chances to get into top 8. There are also some other spots where draws make sense (gotten to a top 8 because of one in a local tournament once since my opponent thought it was good matchup for him), but most of often it is not something that would ever happen in a competitive environment. However, in Multiplier draws are great. With only 1 of 4 players receiving points in most rounds the single point is huge. To adjust for that there would need be twice as many rounds of Swiss which is obviously impossible. Thus, it feels to me like most tournaments just get decided within first couple of rounds. Win those and you can easily draw your way to the top with people who loose not really having a chance to come back since as they battle the winners of the first two rounds got free points, so even if you win the same number of games later in the tournament you have no chance. Especially in cEDH that is so horrible since the format can be often swingy and luck based. The only real solution is saying in the rules agreeing to a draw can only be done after time is called. Yes, players still can play cautiously but inevitably someone will assemble a great hand giving them the option to go for it. This game for example could have easily continued for 1 or 2 more turns and would most likely end in a winner since there were several wins ready to go.
It is a hard thing to stop. Let's say you want to prevent tabels drawing as a collectiv. You say you can't do it in the rules. But the players could just sit and table talk for some extra time on nothing and the game just stands still anyways. But I don't like it either. Games going to draw I hate that. Even my own 1v1 games. I actully rather lose my 1v1 games then have them draw.
I'm very surprised that Samurai agreed to a draw. It looks like he was in an insanely strong position to win that game. Final Fortune, 4 pieces of interaction, an on board win condition, and the ability to see 20+ more cards on his turn. His opponents would need some very specific interaction to stop him. Even if it wasn't a guaranteed win, that hand was extremely good and I think he was more likely to win than his opponents. Maybe he can comment why he thought he didn't have it locked up?
Thanks Mons! With current rules the players made the correct call but would love for a way to decrease the incentive to draw as I think draws are less fun for everyone. I acknowledge that with current format it isn’t an easy fix.
Yeah I don't like it either but I don't have a good solution. I mean we have to have a time limit. and in multiplayer there is a concept or tournament records and things like team effort to not make someone win.
@@cedhtvgameplay3974I’ve found myself in this situation where I was playing a tournament top 4 with the other three players being a group or’ team’ that travels and grinds tournaments. It was an invitational event, and two of the three had qualified already leaving the third needing to beat me. The game felt very biased and every action I made was stopped by the other three players. Multiplayer tournaments are hard to call without some draws needing to happen. I feel the game I played would have been a draw had it not been the finals
I have been offered a couple draws in tournaments and I don’t know if it’s bad etiquette but I prefer to play the game out. I’d rather try and win then and there vs having a draw and loosing for the day because I didn’t win the game I took a draw on.
I hate when I get draws in 1v1. I rather lose a 1v1 then have a draw. So I agree. I don't think I would agree to a draw. But I have been in games that have gone to time and I know I can't win so I try and interact so no one wins.
Mons can you explain your comment about not being able to tap Sol Ring for mana when casting Transmute Artifact? I’m not sure I understand that limitation of the card. He could tap Sol Ring to float mana and still cast Transmute on the Sol Ring. I’m not following the comment you made about not being able to do that. Is there a ruling that I’m missing?
He forgot to tap it first. If he would have done it the way you said it would have worked. But he thought he could tap it during resolution. and tournaments are tournaments. It wasent tapped for mana as it started to resolve. In any normal game it would work fine.
Kinnan and Relic don't work that way. If you tap a permanent using relic, you're not tapping that permanent to add mana. So kinnan wouldnt add extra mana.
Feels against the spirit for cEDH, where you are "playing to win". I do get it's technically optimal to draw because it gives everyone a higher win percentage for the entire tournament, but it feels almost like group hug. You should be trying to beat your opponents at each step of a cedh tournament. Totally within the rules and abusing the rules is the way of cedh so I'm not faulting the individuals, just saying the rules should change to avoid this result.
Makes sense to me because it's a long tournament day so you definitely don't want to go to time if you can help it. This way they all get 1 point and a mental break in-between rounds. I hear you that it feels against the spirit of "play to win" but also, with the goal of winning the tournament, this decision must have made sense for each player to have better odds at doing well in future rounds
@@alanschellenberger9356 ya unfortunately going forward it might be optimal to have everyone draw to top 16 to avoid strain and then just start actually playing in the final round. Obviously this is hyperbole but if drawing is the new meta, everyone should just do it. Drawing to be fresher than your next opponents feels like collusion and is unsporting. If you don't want to play in the tournament, don't play in the tournament. Imagine buying tickets to a hockey game, no one scores in the first so they decide to get off the ice before they risk losing or letting their opponent win and try again tomorrow against another team.
You counter your own point. "Playing to win" means eking out every percentage point you can in your favor. Thinking that winning a single game is "playing to win" is quite naïve.
He did cast it and wanted to sacrifice the Sol Ring. But you have to float the mana BEFORE you cast the spell to do that. Once you put the spell on the stack, its too late to float the mana from the Sol ring, as its an additional cost to sacrifice it. Simply put, he played it wrong and in a tournament you play by the rules (in any casual setting people would just allow it to happen).
Thank God. Ya'll are way too chatty in the intro's, this is a way better format. The Mulligan chat is also pretty useful for in depth play tho- maybe post them separately.
A video series just for mulligan practice in different decks, pods, etc would be cool. Splitting one video into two small ones would be annoying. Just skip the mulligan chat if you dont want to watch it
Samurai had the win on board. With more than 7 cards in hand and glint-horn on the field, he can flesh duplicate the tandem lookout, soulbond with glint-horn, and go to end step. Discard to hand size, glint-horn triggers, making 3 treasure + drawing 3 cards. You have to clean up again, meaning discard 3 cards, trigger glint-horn again, make 9 treasures and draw 9 cards.
Not a rag on samurai, dude was coming out of another tournament less than 24 hours prior to this one. Just wanted to point out the line for educational purposes
Rant about draws: I would say draws are not the problem, but agreed upon draws are. In normal magic they almost never make sense and are super risky. In March of the Machine, I believe, Nathan Steuer and his teammate draw because they didn’t want to destroy the good record they had, and it screwed up their chances to get into top 8. There are also some other spots where draws make sense (gotten to a top 8 because of one in a local tournament once since my opponent thought it was good matchup for him), but most of often it is not something that would ever happen in a competitive environment.
However, in Multiplier draws are great. With only 1 of 4 players receiving points in most rounds the single point is huge. To adjust for that there would need be twice as many rounds of Swiss which is obviously impossible. Thus, it feels to me like most tournaments just get decided within first couple of rounds. Win those and you can easily draw your way to the top with people who loose not really having a chance to come back since as they battle the winners of the first two rounds got free points, so even if you win the same number of games later in the tournament you have no chance. Especially in cEDH that is so horrible since the format can be often swingy and luck based.
The only real solution is saying in the rules agreeing to a draw can only be done after time is called. Yes, players still can play cautiously but inevitably someone will assemble a great hand giving them the option to go for it. This game for example could have easily continued for 1 or 2 more turns and would most likely end in a winner since there were several wins ready to go.
It is a hard thing to stop. Let's say you want to prevent tabels drawing as a collectiv. You say you can't do it in the rules. But the players could just sit and table talk for some extra time on nothing and the game just stands still anyways. But I don't like it either. Games going to draw I hate that. Even my own 1v1 games. I actully rather lose my 1v1 games then have them draw.
I'm very surprised that Samurai agreed to a draw. It looks like he was in an insanely strong position to win that game. Final Fortune, 4 pieces of interaction, an on board win condition, and the ability to see 20+ more cards on his turn. His opponents would need some very specific interaction to stop him.
Even if it wasn't a guaranteed win, that hand was extremely good and I think he was more likely to win than his opponents. Maybe he can comment why he thought he didn't have it locked up?
I thought so to during the actuall game. I mean if he got to his turn he should have kinda won. I think he didn't belive he would get to his turn.
I was so tired guys
@@odyseeuswhen did he activate glint-horn illegally….?
@@odyseeus He didn't activate him - he discarded to hand size which triggers static ability on Glinthorn.
Thank you for showcasing this and actually explaining it.
Your welcome. Wanna support some of the cEDH tournament events.
Thank you for the view into a real tournament match and how long the turns go with table talk. Great video, once again!
Love seeing tournament games. Wish I caught the live stream
NEXT TIME! but well time zones might make it tricky.
Thanks Mons! With current rules the players made the correct call but would love for a way to decrease the incentive to draw as I think draws are less fun for everyone.
I acknowledge that with current format it isn’t an easy fix.
Yeah I don't like it either but I don't have a good solution. I mean we have to have a time limit. and in multiplayer there is a concept or tournament records and things like team effort to not make someone win.
@@cedhtvgameplay3974I’ve found myself in this situation where I was playing a tournament top 4 with the other three players being a group or’ team’ that travels and grinds tournaments. It was an invitational event, and two of the three had qualified already leaving the third needing to beat me. The game felt very biased and every action I made was stopped by the other three players. Multiplayer tournaments are hard to call without some draws needing to happen. I feel the game I played would have been a draw had it not been the finals
Hopefully we copy Japanese rules and get zero for drawing, this farming for points is a disgrace for the format
I will agree to this. Currently you do get points for draws.
Relic of Legends does not produce 2 mana with the second mana ability, as it doesnt tap itself to produce mana, so Kinnan doesnt work with that part.
Yes looked into it now your correct. They might have played that correct tho. Just me saying things during the stream.
Divine Intervention says hi.
Very good video
Hi thank you!
love that card
I have been offered a couple draws in tournaments and I don’t know if it’s bad etiquette but I prefer to play the game out. I’d rather try and win then and there vs having a draw and loosing for the day because I didn’t win the game I took a draw on.
I hate when I get draws in 1v1. I rather lose a 1v1 then have a draw. So I agree. I don't think I would agree to a draw. But I have been in games that have gone to time and I know I can't win so I try and interact so no one wins.
Mons can you explain your comment about not being able to tap Sol Ring for mana when casting Transmute Artifact? I’m not sure I understand that limitation of the card. He could tap Sol Ring to float mana and still cast Transmute on the Sol Ring. I’m not following the comment you made about not being able to do that. Is there a ruling that I’m missing?
He forgot to tap it first. If he would have done it the way you said it would have worked. But he thought he could tap it during resolution. and tournaments are tournaments. It wasent tapped for mana as it started to resolve. In any normal game it would work fine.
@@cedhtvgameplay3974 got it, thanks for the clarification.
Kinnan and Relic don't work that way. If you tap a permanent using relic, you're not tapping that permanent to add mana. So kinnan wouldnt add extra mana.
Yes looked into it now your correct. They might have played that correct tho. Just me saying things during the stream.
@@cedhtvgameplay3974 no worries. I am always happy to learn more niche things, so figured someone else would be 2.
Feels against the spirit for cEDH, where you are "playing to win". I do get it's technically optimal to draw because it gives everyone a higher win percentage for the entire tournament, but it feels almost like group hug. You should be trying to beat your opponents at each step of a cedh tournament. Totally within the rules and abusing the rules is the way of cedh so I'm not faulting the individuals, just saying the rules should change to avoid this result.
I might agree. I just don't know how. But I would like to se something to solve it. Kinda happy to make this video and showcase it to push for it.
Makes sense to me because it's a long tournament day so you definitely don't want to go to time if you can help it. This way they all get 1 point and a mental break in-between rounds.
I hear you that it feels against the spirit of "play to win" but also, with the goal of winning the tournament, this decision must have made sense for each player to have better odds at doing well in future rounds
@@alanschellenberger9356 ya unfortunately going forward it might be optimal to have everyone draw to top 16 to avoid strain and then just start actually playing in the final round. Obviously this is hyperbole but if drawing is the new meta, everyone should just do it. Drawing to be fresher than your next opponents feels like collusion and is unsporting. If you don't want to play in the tournament, don't play in the tournament. Imagine buying tickets to a hockey game, no one scores in the first so they decide to get off the ice before they risk losing or letting their opponent win and try again tomorrow against another team.
You counter your own point. "Playing to win" means eking out every percentage point you can in your favor. Thinking that winning a single game is "playing to win" is quite naïve.
@@MasterDecoy1W I awknowleged the paradox in the comment. It's nuanced.
❤❤❤
I don't understand the transmute thingy.
He did cast it and wanted to sacrifice the Sol Ring. But you have to float the mana BEFORE you cast the spell to do that. Once you put the spell on the stack, its too late to float the mana from the Sol ring, as its an additional cost to sacrifice it. Simply put, he played it wrong and in a tournament you play by the rules (in any casual setting people would just allow it to happen).
@@ThisNameIsBanned alright thanks. Didn't quite understand what he had done.
a draw..damn. wish someone would've gone for it.
How do you score draws like that?
1point vs 0 for losing
@@kennethpolsky8369 so it's on a 3-2-1-0 point system?
No there is ?-1-0. I don't remeber how much you get from winning.
Boo draw
Thank God.
Ya'll are way too chatty in the intro's, this is a way better format.
The Mulligan chat is also pretty useful for in depth play tho- maybe post them separately.
A video series just for mulligan practice in different decks, pods, etc would be cool. Splitting one video into two small ones would be annoying. Just skip the mulligan chat if you dont want to watch it