I remember shooting those when I got the Colt Delta Elite back in 1987. It did throw the brass a lot further than expected, as well as everyone else on the range asking what I was shooting. Nice trip down memory lane just seeing those boxes.
Those old hollow point bullets got clogged up with clothing pretty easy. It would have been interesting to see what kind of expansion you would have gotten with just bare gel.
Wow. The JHP had the wound tract of a hardcast. Not good. News Update: Spoke with my wife this evening. We do some cycling in areas that have mountain lion and bear. I have been carrying a 9mm, but explained the benefits of the 10mm to her. Also explained that my G20 is too large to take on our bikes, and carefully explained how the smaller G29 would do the trick. She said that she trusts my judgement, so I will be heading to the gun store on Tuesday for a G29. Man, I have a GREAT wife!!!!
I believe I saw on Chuke's Outdoor Adventures where the 9mm penetrated just as far as the 10mm. You should check it out. So outdoor woods carry, I carry my Sig P365XL with a Wilson Combat grip module, Tactical Trigger mod, and a 4.2" SS threaded barrel from True Precision. Small, lightweight, accurate, reliable, and very concealable. So I've been leaving my Glock 20 at home.
The Underwood 155 gr .40 round out of a shorter 4 inch barrel gets 1300 fps with 585 ft. lbs. of energy. The only difference is the 10 mm 170gr is 15 gr heavier but has an inch longer barrel. I just can't get excited about the 10mm, mainly because I have all the power I need with a .40 and 357 Sig.
Jeff Cooper's original specification for the 10mm was a 200 grain FMJ fired from a 5" barrel maintaining a striking velocity of at least 1,000 feet per second at "all reasonable handgun combat ranges," which he deemed to be 50 meters or less. The 200 grain FMJ out of your 5" 1911 averaged 1048 feet per second at 50 yards with the lowest shot being 1042 feet per second. That gives us an average striking energy at 50 yards of 487 energy foot pounds. It may be falling short of the box specs, but it's absolutely within spec. Even out of the Glock, it has an average V50 of 1029 feet per second with a low of 1023 feet per second and an average Ke50 of 470 energy foot pounds. The 170 grain JHP put up much better numbers, averaging 1159 feet per second out of the 1911 for an average of 506 energy foot pounds at 50 yards. Out of the Glock, it still cooked along with an average V50 of 1135 fps and an average Ke50 of 486 energy foot pounds. Unfortunately, 1980s bullet technology struck and made the 170 grain JHP fail to perform.
Miss my COLT DELTA ELETE got it back in 1990 and ran lots of 10mm Loads and had my dad get all my Brass Reloaded from a southern guy at work that new what he was doing and those full power loads would make that Colt kick like a MULE
A very informative test that should be an eye-opener about the ideas pertaining to the old original loadings. The results with the hollow points were not surprising to me. I still remember back when hollow point autoloading handgun bullets started appearing on the scene and it’s obvious to me that ammunition manufacturers learned a lot over time. As you point out, this 170 grain HP doesn’t have any of the features of modern bullets, and I suspect that at the time it was made the companies just said, “You want a hollow point? Okay, here’s a bullet with a hollow point,” and no real idea how to make sure they would perform. Thanks to you and the one who sent you the ammo for us all to see the results.
I knew when this showed up in my feed that you were going to be disappointed with the results. There was so much hype about the 10mm back then and with the factory ammo available at that time. Today we are blessed with some excellent factory ammo and some excellent bullets for reloaders. The 10mm is a great round today thanks to modern bullet designs and modern powders. It's loaded mild to wild . It doesn't have to be loaded to magnum levels to be enjoyable all the time.
I don't think the point of this video was a comparison study. No, I think it was a straightforward evaluation of a round. In other words, here's something and here's what it can (did) do, a peek into the past. To condemn the round based on what it can do doesn't make too much sense. Maybe it'd be more pleasing to see an original 10mm versus a .500 S&W. Yawn. Sigh.
This quickly became well known back in the day : The OG Norma was plenty fast . The 170 gr HP had little to no expansion . The W-W 175 Silvertip quickly became the old days Gold Standard .
I pack the 200 grain Underwood HC here in grizz country. I just haven't run the Buffalo Bore thru it enough yet. I can just say, I need quality ammo for any self protection scenarios. I don't even run anything else thru that G20 (KKM barrel, heavier spring). I love the 10mil!
Glad to see the velocity of the 170 grainers. All old school hollow point bullets perform like this one. Bullet tech started to get better in the 1990's and now they're fantastic. Thanks for a great test!
I’ve tried a lot of 10mm ammo. Sig Sauer and Fiocchi is pretty consistent full power ammo. That won’t break the bank. Id love to see you test the Black Hills Gold 10mm Honey Badger ammo out! Love your videos!
How do these sound? Quote from Buffalo Bore developer. When carrying a 10MM for social purposes, I carry two rounds of item 21F up first, followed by the remainder of the magazine being stuffed with item 21G. Over ten years ago, I developed items 21F and 21G for my personal use. They did not have an item # then………..they were designed only for my personal use and I was carrying a Colt Delta Elite for normal social carry, but grew concerned about being slow on my follow-up shots with our full power 10MM ammo. Hence, I designed these TACTICAL 10MM loads for my use and am now offering them to the public for the same very good reason I carried them many years ago.
I had a 5 boxes of that 170 back in the day. There was a magazine writer who hunted hogs with them and their performance in hogs was impressive, blowing huge exit holes. It's been so long I can't remember what magazine or writer it was though. I bought it bunch based on that article.
I always love your 10mm videos, if only because it lets me avoid the underpowered stuff that ain't worth my money. I'm still a newbie so I never had a chance at these ammo boxes (Hell, I was a preschooler when they were made XD ) but it's fascinating to see this test round. It really makes you appreciate the properly loaded stuff a lot more. Speaking of, could you test some of the modern factory FMJ 10mm loads as well? I'd like to get some practice rounds as close as possible to the actual "use" rounds, at least in terms of kickback so I can practice without spending too much money.
Got the notification, got excited. Seen the performance and was disappointed. I do appreciate you using my carry gun of choice, 1911 Government size, in 10 mil.
I just saw 6 boxes of this ammo at a gun show i went to today.....$80 a box.... tempting but im glad i passed now. Thanks for the great OG tests tools appreciate you and all you do ✌️
We are fortunate that technology for bullet design has come a long way since 1983. Results like this may explain why the 10mm failed to achieve the street results of the .357 Mag back when Evan Marshall was gathering data. Some of the better 10mm bullets today are substantially more impressive.
You nailed it with the limp-wristed FBI shooters. They then went to the .40 S&W and had the same problem. They dropped down to the 9mm and I'm betting they still have shooters who struggle. It's hilarious the manufacturers are pushing the 10mm in it's watered down versions and trying to convince the shooting world that the .40 S&W is obsolete. They have nearly succeeded in that as some YT channels tell us that as well. Real time shootings with the .40 show they are mistaken. The 9mm is more effective in movies than reality, though it's a great cartridge, you'd better have good shot placement, though that's key with any cartridge.
The first 10mm that I ever fired were some of those (200 gr FP) out of one of the first Colt Delta Elites in Atlanta. It woke me up! The Delta Elites did not hold up well...
Great test! Obviously, bullet technology has progressed a lot in the last 40 years... Really, for personal protection, the 40 S&W with good bullets like HST's are about perfect - no need for 10mm velocities. Dangerous game and barrier penetration is another thing.
I'd rather just hand load 10mm to my own desired specifications. Buffalo Bore might be the only brand I like and it's too expensive to buy in bulk. "If you want something done right, do it yourself" jelly time.
@@LogisticallyMisrepresented it was a lot of fun, this was the stuff that made the FBI whine about recoil. lol. It's also the stuff that was damaging frames that weren't up to the recoil they dealt. One of the reasons they neutered the caliber. pity, a firearm truly built for it had no trouble at all. I had the colt delta elite with heavy duty springs and a buffer. it was a blast.
No surprise to me with 170's. My Colt DE did the same with mid-80's Norma jhp. Bullet tech at the time and being first in line to mfgr.....no comparison to work with. No2, I *did* have occasion to use it on small game (groundhogs) Did. Ok but not regular AFA expansion; some did, some didn't. Accurate as all git out to 100 yd plus, tho. Saving grace is that for most modern uses afield, you'd want that penetration, especially for larger game defense
40 plus years ago Norma 10mm ammo was to hot for the guns available. The only ammo worth a crap at the time was Corbon 135 grain hollow points for self defense and Winchester 175 silvertip for deer. 10mm fmj of that era was only only intended to improve on the performance of 9mm and 45 and it did. Still does.
Great, fun to watch test, even with less than stellar performance out of the Norma. I am in the 5” camp, so nice to see the comparison of the two barrel lengths even though they are close to same length. Great job man!!!
Norma 170gr was their advertised top performer, not sure why they also offered the 200gr FMJ. I read Norma found in their load development that lighter bullets 165-155gr optimized energy, but they didn’t see much market for the 10mm anyway at the time. There wasn’t much JHP pistol bullet jacket development by any ammo manufacturers back in the 80’s.
Maybe shoot one 170 in bare gel? As a long time fan of the 10mm from back in the day, disappointing to see this, but glad some contemporary 10mm is exceptional. Hope more companies bring more offerings to the market.
Great review! Now I see how these early Norma cartridges could cause frame cracks in the early Bren Ten's and later 1980's Colt Delta Elites! On their Norma website, no 10 MM Auto cartridges listed....nor 40 S&W....
I dug deep into an old ammo stash the other day and found a 25 count of 357 reloads with speer 146 grain half jackets, loaded circa 1981. Shot a dozen to see,,, still had plenty of sizzle.!
I just got back from a camp trip of 2 days, involving lots of shooting. I have absolutely ancient ammo that i was shooting both "new" and reloads. I shot 750 rounds this weekend and none of my ammo was newer than 15 years old. I even shot some old corrosive 7.62x39 manufactured in 1967. All of it ran fine.
As usual, great job! Pity about the JHP failing to expand. I wish the other manufacturers would follow Underwood's lead in loading 10mm the way it is supposed to be.
That ammo is Circa 1982ish and the bullet design is probably from the 1970s so it is not a current modern JHP like the ones we have today with bonded cores and tapering jackets to give consistent Mushrooming at given Velocities like what we see today from Nosler Projectiles like the ones that Underwood and Double Tap use in their current 10mm Auto offerings.
These projectiles were made in a time where expansion was a lot of hit or miss in pistol calibers. Cooper was most concerned with penetration being significantly better than 45 ACP and velocity being high enough to shrink the trajectory from the 45 ACP to something closer to 357 Mag. While this round does penetrate far better than a 45 ACP of the time and does shoot flatter, the expansion is terrible. It may deform somewhat if it hits bone but I don't know that it would expand in flesh.
Had high hopes after the speed of the 170, glad bullet technology has improved in the 41 years since the 10mm was developed. Was cool to see how close the listed speeds stacked up to reality. Thanks for the test Tools!
The original Norma 170 grain JHP had more than enough velocity, but the bullet was not really designed for expansion. JHP bullet technology has come a long way since the 1980's.
That has been my experience with that bullet as well - they looked beautifully made, they were accurate and consistent (loaded in 40 cal with vv350), but never expended in any medium I tried (no gel in 1994).
Interesting when you were showing the bullets - the 200 grain had an exposed base and the 170 HP had the nose exposed of course =- but it struck me that they used the exact same type of jacket for both - just reversed.
Great video! I cant remember much about the 170 gr load I dont think it lasted very long. The FBI wanted a lighter load which lead to 40 S&W ammo. I dont think we had the gel back then for a comparison. There were very few chronographs around, also. We relied on the "Handgun Stopping Power" books.
I still have have some Black Talon 200gr and some 200gr Hydra Shok's left over from the early 90's. I will have to give them try and see if they are what I remember. I still have my Delta Elite, had to put a new barrel in it. I still have an empty original Hornady 170 JHP box, I think that was some hot stuff as well.
Norma does still load 10mm. They have a 155 grain mhp rated at 1308fps. I personally have never shot them but you do see them for sale on psa occasionally. I would love to see them tested but I have low expectations!!
And this is why 10mm got a reputation of over penetrating early on. I tested some of this back in the early 90's into water through two layers of tshirt and one layer of sweatshirt material and had the same result - zero expansion.
I always heard that the old norma projectiles were bad i also heard that they did skimp on powder on fmj because it wasnt for duty or protection use. That could explain the weak performance of the 200 fmj.
You cracked me up, i cant wait to see your Better Health ad coming soon!! Was cool to see this old school stuff, but i think i was just as excited to see you were gonna run that new gorgeous 1911 you got for it! Definitely a shame that bullet design was so bad that it didnt perform, but still interesting to see an old round tested. Good as always Tools.
The Norma 200 gr. FMJ was the first 10mm ammo produced for sale. I have an original 20 rd. box also. I will not be firing mine though it is collector ammo now.
I remember them well. I had a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and several boxes of the original Norma Ammo that you are testing, I killed a Deer and Two Wild Hogs with the JHP's. It was my Woods and Camping Gun and was always on my hip. I believe the bullets were Nosler at the time, if I remember correctly.
Thank you for bringing the nostalgia. I'm not surprised by the poor performance of 80s JHP. I think the best JHPs back in the day were the scalloped 357s and the 200gr CCI flying ashtrays in 45 Auto.
Dude, I get excited, when I start to see YOU getting excited! …let’s not talk 200 grain. 😂 After how many years, I realize if YOU’RE excited, then it’s definitely something to get excited about! Bummed by the jelly test though. I DO wish Norma was performing the way they USED to! I still remember my Dad telling me back in the 80’s, when I found some Norma 7mm mag in his gun cabinet, that “those are HOT loads”…and he was talking about factory loads. Haha!
Not to argue, but I think the takeaway here is the performance of a round. I don't think I saw a comparison test, unless I'm missing something. No, it was just a test of an old bullet to see what it could do.
Disappointed in these 10mm results but thanks for the video! If you'd be interested I'd love to see some 9mm "spoon" rounds tested. It's just an fmj round nose with a small flat sanded/grinded on the bullet tip at a 120° angle. You're only removing about 1 grain of material. This is supposed to induce dramatic tumbling on the round once it hits a soft target. I'd love to see a few of them put into a gel block and see if they actually work.
Just for grins and chuckles try testing .41 Magnum JHP rounds out of a four-inch barrel compared to current 10mm loadings. Keep in mind that Cooper was looking for a replacement for the .38Spl/.357 Magnum and the hand full of .41 Magnum revolvers utilized by LEOs back then. I'm so old that I recall him saying, in print at least, that the 10mm was superior to the .45ACP. The problem I had with the 10mm, at least in the 1980s and early 1990s, was that there were only two pistols that fit my hand. The Colt's 10mm 1911 version and the "Baby Glock". In fact, my fifty-yard scores were better with the Glock than with the Colt's, and a S&W I tried....And I am anything but a fan of Glock pistols. But then I don't think much of Henry rifles, or their revolver for that matter, either. I'll never own either of those brands as long as I have others to choose from. Great video as usual.
Bullets weren’t as advanced back then (even SuperVel). That’s why I went from 9mm to .45 in 1977. Today we have great bullets. Tools, you’re younger than me, but have you read anything about the .40 G&A wildcat, built on a Browning Hi-Power? Back then, it was hard to find jacketed .40 bullets. They finally used a JSP made for the 38-40, over a stiff charge of Blue Dot if memory serves. Lots of history leading to the 10mm.
I bet Norma or any big company could make a fortune selling +P or full power range ammo. A lot of people carry that type of stuff & would like to train with it, but it's very hard to find +P or even full power range ammo in about any caliber.
I predicted exactly this result when you first showed of this ammo. Although i didn't shoot ot in gel i knew what the velocity was going to be. At least on the 200gr load. My old brain recalled the 200 feeling hotter than the 170 back when yhis stuff was new. I guess in our hearts we wanted it to perform well in the gel....but to be perfectly honest the only bullets i recall from the era performing to the standard of today were the old SJHP bullets from Remington in the magnum revolver rounds.
Yeah, it honestly didn't occur to me that we might have a bullet performance problem until I actually saw how very basic the 170 was. Interesting to see none the less.😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets I agree, I was anxious to see what results you got! It also goes to show that even with 40 year old tech they could get the velocity 10mm should be loaded to!
Come to think about it, I believe bullet technology in general (then) was a bit lack luster. With that, I believe LE agencies and individuals, me included, relied on companies advertising as there wasn’t a wide-known ballistic testing outside of what we figured out what works and what doesn’t, usually through hunting. Anyway, nowadays, people want to harp on how bullet technology made the 9mm just as effective as (insert your favorite duty/defense caliber). While that might be truthful to some degree, bullet technology extended to other calibers as well - including the 10mm. I suspect with the OG Norma 170, penetration was the number one concern, and if that was the case, they nailed it, lol, as the then FBI 9mm 115 gr. Silver Tip failed to penetrate deeply enough to stop one of the Miami Shootout bad guys… ironically, that projectile missed bone which ultimately caused it to not drive deep enough… it missed the arm bone and ribs before stopping about two inches short of the heart. Had it hit a bone, the outcome might have been different… apparently, the ole .38 +p wad or semiwadcutter performed better than the 9mm 115 Siver Tip. I’m surprised Winchester still manufactures that load unless the bullet is slightly different than the 1986 version. Something else, I wish people would stop with the over penetration thing. Caveat is obviously not using a 200 gr . hard cast load in an apartment or other crowed setting. Let’s spend the energy here and talk about shot placement and making hits during a dynamic and violet encounter when innocent life is on the line. A miss is a lot worse than over penetration!
I have my last two, 20 round boxes of "Original" Hornady 10MM ammo I would like to send you to see what they do in comparison to the Norma's and current 10MM ammo. One box is the 170 gr. JHP, the other is 155 gr. JHP. I purchased them new from the store and been lugging them around with me for 30-40 years. Give me an email address and I'll send you some pictures and you can respond with an address for me to send them to if you're interested. Keep up the outstanding work. Love your passion for 10MM.
It’s crazy over the years how much junk we have been sold. It could be a bad junk bullet, not enough speed or both. Now don’t get me wrong a bullet is a bullet and it’s no joke but come on that’s not what we are paying for especially today with the prices! These ammo companies been rippin us off for years! What opened my eyes was the 40 test you did with Remington UMC and WWB
Damn, seems like you could make a few shallow cuts from hacksaw to those hollow points and have a better bullet design. 10mm has been neglected for decades when it comes to most ammo off the shelf.
While disappointing with their lack of expansion in the gel, the wound track on the 170’s wasn’t terrible. Certainly far better options available now, but I wonder how it compares to other calibers/ammo from the same time period? I know the .357 magnum sjhp would have performed well, but outside of that I don’t know what else would have. In any event, I do appreciate the better projectiles available today.
I wonder if those HP's would work if you cut some skives in them with a triangle file or a Dremel cutting wheel. I'm super curious if you can mod the ammo and make it work!! Consider it TnT, would make a great video 🤔🥼 😁.
Back when the 10 came out there was no internet army with chronograph's. ALL of the ammo manufacturers exaggerated their velocities. Somehow that 200 at 1200 became legend. Lot's of g 20"s blown to smitheries trying to match it. You can do it with new powders, but you have to ignore SAAMI pressures at least to some extent.
To be fair it was designed to run at 50k psi not 32k psi. ....200 at 1200 was standard.......I run higher spec than that in mine but dont do that with old delta elites
Makes you wonder if all the 'hype' we remember about the 90's 10MM loads wasn't just that, hype, seeing as these Norma loads were as good as the day they were loaded. 9x19, 10MM, .357Sig and some .45ACP are all underloaded nowadays because ammo companies crapped themselves when the Glock .40 KB's were happening and started to load their rounds lighter and less hot. Scared of litigation it seems was the cause for our ammo being so weak nowadays. IMHO only .40S&W is loaded to spec by most manufacturers.
You should test the new Buffalo Bore Low Flash/Low-Recoil 180 JHP 10mm! Made for "human" ballistic performance. Quick follow up shots and low flash sound great in 10mm. They also have 150 JHP in the same round. The question is, is it really low flash in low light and how does it compare against a 40 S&W in gel. Think bump in the night, next to bed application. Thank you, great content as always! Eric
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I remember shooting those when I got the Colt Delta Elite back in 1987. It did throw the brass a lot further than expected, as well as everyone else on the range asking what I was shooting. Nice trip down memory lane just seeing those boxes.
😎👊
I still have a box with a few rounds left over. Got a lot of 10mm Lite brass. I wonder if the load is posted somewhere.
My Ronin will sling them 20 feet to the right and back of me my uncle was like damn that thing ejects the hell out of those cases lmao
@@terryburton971 Sadly I traded away my Delta Elite, but my TRP Operator does the same as your Ronin. 😁😁
@@normangiven6436 Not sure, I never did any reloading. The Turkey's Opinion does a lot of 10mm reloading and ammo testing.
Testing 40yr old 10mm ammo, is something you'll probably never see anywhere else people
😎👊
Don't test 84 year old buried dud bombs . They have a reputation.
Paul Harrel did a side by side of 1980s and current (2023 or so) Winchester Silvertip 9mm. Love vids like this
I've had and have some ammo over 25 or 30 years old and it still looks and fires great and some is even hotter than the ammo produced today . 😊
It's been done before.
Those old hollow point bullets got clogged up with clothing pretty easy.
It would have been interesting to see what kind of expansion you would have gotten with just bare gel.
Wow. The JHP had the wound tract of a hardcast. Not good. News Update: Spoke with my wife this evening. We do some cycling in areas that have mountain lion and bear. I have been carrying a 9mm, but explained the benefits of the 10mm to her. Also explained that my G20 is too large to take on our bikes, and carefully explained how the smaller G29 would do the trick. She said that she trusts my judgement, so I will be heading to the gun store on Tuesday for a G29. Man, I have a GREAT wife!!!!
Nice! Been carrying the G29 since I got it.😎👊
Thor's Hammer
My G29 in a Vedder OWB is like a Mastercard. Never leave home without it.
I believe I saw on Chuke's Outdoor Adventures where the 9mm penetrated just as far as the 10mm. You should check it out. So outdoor woods carry, I carry my Sig P365XL with a Wilson Combat grip module, Tactical Trigger mod, and a 4.2" SS threaded barrel from True Precision. Small, lightweight, accurate, reliable, and very concealable. So I've been leaving my Glock 20 at home.
The Underwood 155 gr .40 round out of a shorter 4 inch barrel gets 1300 fps with 585 ft. lbs. of energy. The only difference is the 10 mm 170gr is 15 gr heavier but has an inch longer barrel. I just can't get excited about the 10mm, mainly because I have all the power I need with a .40 and 357 Sig.
I love to geek out over old ammo and the boxes they came in.
Same here
Same here as well.
Yup love em
Same here. I bought 4 boxes of this stuff, HP and FMJ. The ammo and boxes are in pristine condition. Can't help it, I'm a 10mm 🤓 nerd
Great test! 10mm weeding out the limp wrists since 1983!
😂
And breaking pistols. All of them. Bren, Colt, AMT, S&W. Seen ALL of them beat to failure in the late 80s.
Yes! lol 😂
@@rsbreeze With the full power loads.
Jeff Cooper's original specification for the 10mm was a 200 grain FMJ fired from a 5" barrel maintaining a striking velocity of at least 1,000 feet per second at "all reasonable handgun combat ranges," which he deemed to be 50 meters or less.
The 200 grain FMJ out of your 5" 1911 averaged 1048 feet per second at 50 yards with the lowest shot being 1042 feet per second. That gives us an average striking energy at 50 yards of 487 energy foot pounds. It may be falling short of the box specs, but it's absolutely within spec. Even out of the Glock, it has an average V50 of 1029 feet per second with a low of 1023 feet per second and an average Ke50 of 470 energy foot pounds.
The 170 grain JHP put up much better numbers, averaging 1159 feet per second out of the 1911 for an average of 506 energy foot pounds at 50 yards. Out of the Glock, it still cooked along with an average V50 of 1135 fps and an average Ke50 of 486 energy foot pounds.
Unfortunately, 1980s bullet technology struck and made the 170 grain JHP fail to perform.
Thanks for sharing
💥😎👊💥
Miss my COLT DELTA ELETE got it back in 1990 and ran lots of 10mm Loads and had my dad get all my Brass Reloaded from a southern guy at work that new what he was doing and those full power loads would make that Colt kick like a MULE
😎👊
A very informative test that should be an eye-opener about the ideas pertaining to the old original loadings. The results with the hollow points were not surprising to me. I still remember back when hollow point autoloading handgun bullets started appearing on the scene and it’s obvious to me that ammunition manufacturers learned a lot over time. As you point out, this 170 grain HP doesn’t have any of the features of modern bullets, and I suspect that at the time it was made the companies just said, “You want a hollow point? Okay, here’s a bullet with a hollow point,” and no real idea how to make sure they would perform. Thanks to you and the one who sent you the ammo for us all to see the results.
I knew when this showed up in my feed that you were going to be disappointed with the results.
There was so much hype about the 10mm back then and with the factory ammo available at that time.
Today we are blessed with some excellent factory ammo and some excellent bullets for reloaders.
The 10mm is a great round today thanks to modern bullet designs and modern powders. It's loaded mild to wild . It doesn't have to be loaded to magnum levels to be enjoyable all the time.
I don't think the point of this video was a comparison study. No, I think it was a straightforward evaluation of a round. In other words, here's something and here's what it can (did) do, a peek into the past. To condemn the round based on what it can do doesn't make too much sense. Maybe it'd be more pleasing to see an original 10mm versus a .500 S&W. Yawn. Sigh.
This quickly became well known back in the day :
The OG Norma was plenty fast .
The 170 gr HP had little to no expansion .
The W-W 175 Silvertip quickly became the old days Gold Standard .
Hey, they worked for Sonny Crockett.
This is a powerful display of modern bullet design and engineering over the past 40 years
Man, I’m telling you that OG 200 Grainer is a beautiful bear protection gun for grizzly. They just have to be used for the right purpose.
Little light in the britches compared to some of the other 200's.
I pack the 200 grain Underwood HC here in grizz country. I just haven't run the Buffalo Bore thru it enough yet. I can just say, I need quality ammo for any self protection scenarios. I don't even run anything else thru that G20 (KKM barrel, heavier spring). I love the 10mil!
@@ToolsandTargets Great for subsonic, suppressed
Glad to see the velocity of the 170 grainers. All old school hollow point bullets perform like this one. Bullet tech started to get better in the 1990's and now they're fantastic. Thanks for a great test!
I’ve tried a lot of 10mm ammo. Sig Sauer and Fiocchi is pretty consistent full power ammo. That won’t break the bank. Id love to see you test the Black Hills Gold 10mm Honey Badger ammo out! Love your videos!
Thank you sir.😎👊
Outside of boutique loaders, Sig does make a good 180gr 10mm for big box off the shelf.
How do these sound? Quote from Buffalo Bore developer.
When carrying a 10MM for social purposes, I carry two rounds of item 21F up first, followed by the remainder of the magazine being stuffed with item 21G. Over ten years ago, I developed items 21F and 21G for my personal use. They did not have an item # then………..they were designed only for my personal use and I was carrying a Colt Delta Elite for normal social carry, but grew concerned about being slow on my follow-up shots with our full power 10MM ammo. Hence, I designed these TACTICAL 10MM loads for my use and am now offering them to the public for the same very good reason I carried them many years ago.
I had a 5 boxes of that 170 back in the day. There was a magazine writer who hunted hogs with them and their performance in hogs was impressive, blowing huge exit holes. It's been so long I can't remember what magazine or writer it was though. I bought it bunch based on that article.
Yeah, it's gonna put a hurtin on something whether it expands or not.💥🐗💥
Keith Warren maybe?
I always love your 10mm videos, if only because it lets me avoid the underpowered stuff that ain't worth my money.
I'm still a newbie so I never had a chance at these ammo boxes (Hell, I was a preschooler when they were made XD ) but it's fascinating to see this test round. It really makes you appreciate the properly loaded stuff a lot more.
Speaking of, could you test some of the modern factory FMJ 10mm loads as well? I'd like to get some practice rounds as close as possible to the actual "use" rounds, at least in terms of kickback so I can practice without spending too much money.
Got the notification, got excited. Seen the performance and was disappointed. I do appreciate you using my carry gun of choice, 1911 Government size, in 10 mil.
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I just saw 6 boxes of this ammo at a gun show i went to today.....$80 a box.... tempting but im glad i passed now.
Thanks for the great OG tests tools appreciate you and all you do ✌️
Defensive bullet design has come a long way since the 80s. It's interesting to see how much with a test like this. Thanks!
I don't like to see you emotional when a 10mm turns out to be a 40 S&W +p. Thats what most 10mm is. Still great video as always thanks! Your the man!
Thank you sir.😎👊
Me and my 10mm buddy calls those "40 long" loads
A test of the 9x25 Dillon with a super hot load out of a 8" barrel would be to darn nice to see at some time.
We are fortunate that technology for bullet design has come a long way since 1983. Results like this may explain why the 10mm failed to achieve the street results of the .357 Mag back when Evan Marshall was gathering data. Some of the better 10mm bullets today are substantially more impressive.
You nailed it with the limp-wristed FBI shooters. They then went to the .40 S&W and had the same problem. They dropped down to the 9mm and I'm betting they still have shooters who struggle. It's hilarious the manufacturers are pushing the 10mm in it's watered down versions and trying to convince the shooting world that the .40 S&W is obsolete. They have nearly succeeded in that as some YT channels tell us that as well. Real time shootings with the .40 show they are mistaken. The 9mm is more effective in movies than reality, though it's a great cartridge, you'd better have good shot placement, though that's key with any cartridge.
Awesome ! To think that Underwood used to make something pretty comparable to the 170 grain.
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I got spicier load from underwood......185 at 1400 and it shoots true from my 5 inch
I didn't know today was Christmas! I love your 10mm vids
Appreciate ya, brother!😎👊
I feel your pain, Brother! Disgusting and disheartening!!
I still don't have a 10mm, but I'll watch about any ammo reviews, even the air rifles. Keep up the great work, sir👍.
The first 10mm that I ever fired were some of those (200 gr FP) out of one of the first Colt Delta Elites in Atlanta.
It woke me up!
The Delta Elites did not hold up well...
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Great test! Obviously, bullet technology has progressed a lot in the last 40 years... Really, for personal protection, the 40 S&W with good bullets like HST's are about perfect - no need for 10mm velocities. Dangerous game and barrier penetration is another thing.
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I'd rather just hand load 10mm to my own desired specifications. Buffalo Bore might be the only brand I like and it's too expensive to buy in bulk.
"If you want something done right, do it yourself" jelly time.
Agreed
The 10 mm Colt and the Glock 20 kept that cartridge alive all these years
Remington 165 grain JHP was the GOAT for 10mm back in the day.
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165 to 175 is a good weight/size/speed zone for the caliber. Must have been fun to blast some 😃
@@LogisticallyMisrepresented it was a lot of fun, this was the stuff that made the FBI whine about recoil. lol. It's also the stuff that was damaging frames that weren't up to the recoil they dealt. One of the reasons they neutered the caliber. pity, a firearm truly built for it had no trouble at all. I had the colt delta elite with heavy duty springs and a buffer. it was a blast.
No surprise to me with 170's. My Colt DE did the same with mid-80's Norma jhp. Bullet tech at the time and being first in line to mfgr.....no comparison to work with. No2, I *did* have occasion to use it on small game (groundhogs) Did. Ok but not regular AFA expansion; some did, some didn't. Accurate as all git out to 100 yd plus, tho.
Saving grace is that for most modern uses afield, you'd want that penetration, especially for larger game defense
40 plus years ago Norma 10mm ammo was to hot for the guns available. The only ammo worth a crap at the time was Corbon 135 grain hollow points for self defense and Winchester 175 silvertip for deer. 10mm fmj of that era was only only intended to improve on the performance of 9mm and 45 and it did. Still does.
It’s nice to know we can nowadays get those velocities off the shelf with those same bullet weights , but with better performance. Great test !
Seeing my favorite piece tickles me. I’ve sat around and stared at my MR10mm. Such a beauty.
“Respek on its name” got my wife to come into the man cave like, “wtf did he just say”? 😂
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My wife is prohibited from my cave!✊🏻
@@bigracer3867 so long as she doesn't return you the same kindness.
Great, fun to watch test, even with less than stellar performance out of the Norma. I am in the 5” camp, so nice to see the comparison of the two barrel lengths even though they are close to same length.
Great job man!!!
Norma 170gr was their advertised top performer, not sure why they also offered the 200gr FMJ.
I read Norma found in their load development that lighter bullets 165-155gr optimized energy, but they didn’t see much market for the 10mm anyway at the time. There wasn’t much JHP pistol bullet jacket development by any ammo manufacturers back in the 80’s.
$11.95 price tag on those rounds 😮. The Good old days 😊
Not when you were making $5.25 an hour! 🤣🤣🤣
@@jd750ace1 good point 🧐💸
@@jd750ace1your money had more buying power then
This is reliving history and a real tribute. Love it as always 👍
Maybe shoot one 170 in bare gel? As a long time fan of the 10mm from back in the day, disappointing to see this, but glad some contemporary 10mm is exceptional. Hope more companies bring more offerings to the market.
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Shows how far bullet technology has come! Crazy that even 1300 fps wouldn't get a hollow point to do its thing. Thanks for the test.
Great review! Now I see how these early Norma cartridges could cause frame cracks in the early Bren Ten's and later 1980's Colt Delta Elites! On their Norma website, no 10 MM Auto cartridges listed....nor 40 S&W....
Thank you sir.😎👊
He is a little off in the FBI did not use the Colt delta Elite. They used a S&W 1006 converted to double action only version.
Didn't say they did. I said the Delta Elite and FBI more or less saved the round.
Strange comments from the bots, lol. I have lots of 25 plus year old reloads. They still go bang when requested to.
Yeah, they make zero sense.😂
@@franzputsch254 says the bot. :)
I dug deep into an old ammo stash the other day and found a 25 count of 357 reloads with speer 146 grain half jackets, loaded circa 1981. Shot a dozen to see,,, still had plenty of sizzle.!
I just got back from a camp trip of 2 days, involving lots of shooting. I have absolutely ancient ammo that i was shooting both "new" and reloads. I shot 750 rounds this weekend and none of my ammo was newer than 15 years old. I even shot some old corrosive 7.62x39 manufactured in 1967. All of it ran fine.
Yea but how bad do they smell? I was shooting 30 year old 12 gauge shells the other day and it was terrible i started coughing
As usual, great job! Pity about the JHP failing to expand. I wish the other manufacturers would follow Underwood's lead in loading 10mm the way it is supposed to be.
You always provide amazing ballistic reviews! Great job!! Thanks for turning me onto AAC 10mm.🙏🏿🇺🇸🙏🏿🇺🇸
Norma Jelly Time. 😎
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That ammo is Circa 1982ish and the bullet design is probably from the 1970s so it is not a current modern JHP like the ones we have today with bonded cores and tapering jackets to give consistent Mushrooming at given Velocities like what we see today from Nosler Projectiles like the ones that Underwood and Double Tap use in their current 10mm Auto offerings.
These projectiles were made in a time where expansion was a lot of hit or miss in pistol calibers. Cooper was most concerned with penetration being significantly better than 45 ACP and velocity being high enough to shrink the trajectory from the 45 ACP to something closer to 357 Mag. While this round does penetrate far better than a 45 ACP of the time and does shoot flatter, the expansion is terrible. It may deform somewhat if it hits bone but I don't know that it would expand in flesh.
Had high hopes after the speed of the 170, glad bullet technology has improved in the 41 years since the 10mm was developed. Was cool to see how close the listed speeds stacked up to reality. Thanks for the test Tools!
The original Norma 170 grain JHP had more than enough velocity, but the bullet was not really designed for expansion. JHP bullet technology has come a long way since the 1980's.
Yes indeed
That has been my experience with that bullet as well - they looked beautifully made, they were accurate and consistent (loaded in 40 cal with vv350), but never expended in any medium I tried (no gel in 1994).
Interesting when you were showing the bullets - the 200 grain had an exposed base and the 170 HP had the nose exposed of course =- but it struck me that they used the exact same type of jacket for both - just reversed.
It was some thick stuff too.
Great video!
I cant remember much about the 170 gr load I dont think it lasted very long. The FBI wanted a lighter load which lead to 40 S&W ammo.
I dont think we had the gel back then for a comparison. There were very few chronographs around, also. We relied on the "Handgun Stopping Power" books.
Still have my S&W 1006 and 1076 👍
“I’m so tore up and distraught I might even have to call Better Help” 😂 Too funny man
Keep up the great work brother
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Absolutely awesome this is some of the original production stuff when it was a new cartridge,Norma was the first to load It
I still have have some Black Talon 200gr and some 200gr Hydra Shok's left over from the early 90's. I will have to give them try and see if they are what I remember. I still have my Delta Elite, had to put a new barrel in it. I still have an empty original Hornady 170 JHP box, I think that was some hot stuff as well.
Norma does still load 10mm. They have a 155 grain mhp rated at 1308fps. I personally have never shot them but you do see them for sale on psa occasionally. I would love to see them tested but I have low expectations!!
And this is why 10mm got a reputation of over penetrating early on. I tested some of this back in the early 90's into water through two layers of tshirt and one layer of sweatshirt material and had the same result - zero expansion.
Great video! Nice to see some Norma
Thank you sir. Shame they didn't act better.😆
I always heard that the old norma projectiles were bad i also heard that they did skimp on powder on fmj because it wasnt for duty or protection use. That could explain the weak performance of the 200 fmj.
the wound tracks from all 3 look pretty good despite the failure to expand, interesting
Big ol piece of lead moving quick is still nasty stuff.
You cracked me up, i cant wait to see your Better Health ad coming soon!! Was cool to see this old school stuff, but i think i was just as excited to see you were gonna run that new gorgeous 1911 you got for it! Definitely a shame that bullet design was so bad that it didnt perform, but still interesting to see an old round tested. Good as always Tools.
😂 That would have been the perfect segue for a Better Help ad!
@@ToolsandTargets lol no doubt brother!
The Norma 200 gr. FMJ was the first 10mm ammo produced for sale. I have an original 20 rd. box also. I will not be firing mine though it is collector ammo now.
I remember them well. I had a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and several boxes of the original Norma Ammo that you are testing, I killed a Deer and Two Wild Hogs with the JHP's. It was my Woods and Camping Gun and was always on my hip. I believe the bullets were Nosler at the time, if I remember correctly.
Thank you for bringing the nostalgia. I'm not surprised by the poor performance of 80s JHP. I think the best JHPs back in the day were the scalloped 357s and the 200gr CCI flying ashtrays in 45 Auto.
Dude, I get excited, when I start to see YOU getting excited! …let’s not talk 200 grain. 😂
After how many years, I realize if YOU’RE excited, then it’s definitely something to get excited about!
Bummed by the jelly test though.
I DO wish Norma was performing the way they USED to!
I still remember my Dad telling me back in the 80’s, when I found some Norma 7mm mag in his gun cabinet, that “those are HOT loads”…and he was talking about factory loads. Haha!
I think the takeaway here is that bullet design has really progressed over the past 40 years.
Not to argue, but I think the takeaway here is the performance of a round. I don't think I saw a comparison test, unless I'm missing something. No, it was just a test of an old bullet to see what it could do.
It compares a fmj to an old tech hp .old hp didnt open at 1300. Agree w/ squarewave
Disappointed in these 10mm results but thanks for the video! If you'd be interested I'd love to see some 9mm "spoon" rounds tested. It's just an fmj round nose with a small flat sanded/grinded on the bullet tip at a 120° angle. You're only removing about 1 grain of material. This is supposed to induce dramatic tumbling on the round once it hits a soft target. I'd love to see a few of them put into a gel block and see if they actually work.
Just for grins and chuckles try testing .41 Magnum JHP rounds out of a four-inch barrel compared to current 10mm loadings. Keep in mind that Cooper was looking for a replacement for the .38Spl/.357 Magnum and the hand full of .41 Magnum revolvers utilized by LEOs back then. I'm so old that I recall him saying, in print at least, that the 10mm was superior to the .45ACP. The problem I had with the 10mm, at least in the 1980s and early 1990s, was that there were only two pistols that fit my hand. The Colt's 10mm 1911 version and the "Baby Glock". In fact, my fifty-yard scores were better with the Glock than with the Colt's, and a S&W I tried....And I am anything but a fan of Glock pistols. But then I don't think much of Henry rifles, or their revolver for that matter, either. I'll never own either of those brands as long as I have others to choose from. Great video as usual.
Yes. Another awesome vid! Keep ‘em coming my guy!!
Appreciate that!😎👊
In order to get optimum velocity from the 10mm, you need a 6" barrel, or handload your own.
Nearly every 10mm round in existence is designed around a 5" barrel.
I still have half a box each of the original Norma 200 gr and 165 gr. It goes with my original Bren Ten in the safe. 3:46
Bullets weren’t as advanced back then (even SuperVel). That’s why I went from 9mm to .45 in 1977. Today we have great bullets. Tools, you’re younger than me, but have you read anything about the .40 G&A wildcat, built on a Browning Hi-Power? Back then, it was hard to find jacketed .40 bullets. They finally used a JSP made for the 38-40, over a stiff charge of Blue Dot if memory serves. Lots of history leading to the 10mm.
I bet Norma or any big company could make a fortune selling +P or full power range ammo.
A lot of people carry that type of stuff & would like to train with it, but it's very hard to find +P or even full power range ammo in about any caliber.
Love the channel. You really have me considering picking up a 10mm instead of a. 40 SW
I predicted exactly this result when you first showed of this ammo. Although i didn't shoot ot in gel i knew what the velocity was going to be. At least on the 200gr load. My old brain recalled the 200 feeling hotter than the 170 back when yhis stuff was new. I guess in our hearts we wanted it to perform well in the gel....but to be perfectly honest the only bullets i recall from the era performing to the standard of today were the old SJHP bullets from Remington in the magnum revolver rounds.
Yeah, it honestly didn't occur to me that we might have a bullet performance problem until I actually saw how very basic the 170 was. Interesting to see none the less.😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets I agree, I was anxious to see what results you got! It also goes to show that even with 40 year old tech they could get the velocity 10mm should be loaded to!
The defunct Texas Ammunition 10mm Express should be tested. They made a 200 XTP that was rated over 1300 FPS.
AWESOME VIDEO!! Thank you this was really enjoyable, Tools !!
...MAN!!! I haven't sent those old 20 round Norma boxes on YEARS!!!
Pretty cool stuff.
Come to think about it, I believe bullet technology in general (then) was a bit lack luster. With that, I believe LE agencies and individuals, me included, relied on companies advertising as there wasn’t a wide-known ballistic testing outside of what we figured out what works and what doesn’t, usually through hunting. Anyway, nowadays, people want to harp on how bullet technology made the 9mm just as effective as (insert your favorite duty/defense caliber). While that might be truthful to some degree, bullet technology extended to other calibers as well - including the 10mm. I suspect with the OG Norma 170, penetration was the number one concern, and if that was the case, they nailed it, lol, as the then FBI 9mm 115 gr. Silver Tip failed to penetrate deeply enough to stop one of the Miami Shootout bad guys… ironically, that projectile missed bone which ultimately caused it to not drive deep enough… it missed the arm bone and ribs before stopping about two inches short of the heart. Had it hit a bone, the outcome might have been different… apparently, the ole .38 +p wad or semiwadcutter performed better than the 9mm 115 Siver Tip. I’m surprised Winchester still manufactures that load unless the bullet is slightly different than the 1986 version.
Something else, I wish people would stop with the over penetration thing. Caveat is obviously not using a 200 gr . hard cast load in an apartment or other crowed setting. Let’s spend the energy here and talk about shot placement and making hits during a dynamic and violet encounter when innocent life is on the line. A miss is a lot worse than over penetration!
I have my last two, 20 round boxes of "Original" Hornady 10MM ammo I would like to send you to see what they do in comparison to the Norma's and current 10MM ammo. One box is the 170 gr. JHP, the other is 155 gr. JHP. I purchased them new from the store and been lugging them around with me for 30-40 years. Give me an email address and I'll send you some pictures and you can respond with an address for me to send them to if you're interested. Keep up the outstanding work. Love your passion for 10MM.
I don't see ANY cuts or skives on the jacket of the JHP at all. It can't open up if you don't cut the jackets right!
Yeah, it's basic as can be. I read somewhere that these original bullets were swaged by Sierra. That would make sense.
Thanks Tools for another great vid. Memory can be a funny and fickle thing. Much like my first date wayyyyyyyyyy back when.
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It’s crazy over the years how much junk we have been sold. It could be a bad junk bullet, not enough speed or both. Now don’t get me wrong a bullet is a bullet and it’s no joke but come on that’s not what we are paying for especially today with the prices! These ammo companies been rippin us off for years! What opened my eyes was the 40 test you did with Remington UMC and WWB
Damn, seems like you could make a few shallow cuts from hacksaw to those hollow points and have a better bullet design. 10mm has been neglected for decades when it comes to most ammo off the shelf.
While disappointing with their lack of expansion in the gel, the wound track on the 170’s wasn’t terrible. Certainly far better options available now, but I wonder how it compares to other calibers/ammo from the same time period? I know the .357 magnum sjhp would have performed well, but outside of that I don’t know what else would have. In any event, I do appreciate the better projectiles available today.
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I used this ammo in my SW 1066 back in the day.
I wonder if those HP's would work if you cut some skives in them with a triangle file or a Dremel cutting wheel. I'm super curious if you can mod the ammo and make it work!! Consider it TnT, would make a great video 🤔🥼 😁.
I had a delta elite. Need to pic up another. I currently have a F N 510. It's a bad ass handgun. 22 rounds of 10 mm seriously
Silly part is those wound tracks are still better than some 9mm jhp’s that do expand.
Back when the 10 came out there was no internet army with chronograph's. ALL of the ammo manufacturers exaggerated their velocities. Somehow that 200 at 1200 became legend. Lot's of g 20"s blown to smitheries trying to match it. You can do it with new powders, but you have to ignore SAAMI pressures at least to some extent.
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Accurate #9 will push a 200gr xtp to 1200 fps with a “book load”
To be fair it was designed to run at 50k psi not 32k psi. ....200 at 1200 was standard.......I run higher spec than that in mine but dont do that with old delta elites
Makes you wonder if all the 'hype' we remember about the 90's 10MM loads wasn't just that, hype, seeing as these Norma loads were as good as the day they were loaded. 9x19, 10MM, .357Sig and some .45ACP are all underloaded nowadays because ammo companies crapped themselves when the Glock .40 KB's were happening and started to load their rounds lighter and less hot. Scared of litigation it seems was the cause for our ammo being so weak nowadays. IMHO only .40S&W is loaded to spec by most manufacturers.
You should test the new Buffalo Bore Low Flash/Low-Recoil 180 JHP 10mm! Made for "human" ballistic performance. Quick follow up shots and low flash sound great in 10mm. They also have 150 JHP in the same round. The question is, is it really low flash in low light and how does it compare against a 40 S&W in gel. Think bump in the night, next to bed application. Thank you, great content as always! Eric
What about putting a pine board in front to simulate bone