I remember shooting those when I got the Colt Delta Elite back in 1987. It did throw the brass a lot further than expected, as well as everyone else on the range asking what I was shooting. Nice trip down memory lane just seeing those boxes.
Those old hollow point bullets got clogged up with clothing pretty easy. It would have been interesting to see what kind of expansion you would have gotten with just bare gel.
Miss my COLT DELTA ELETE got it back in 1990 and ran lots of 10mm Loads and had my dad get all my Brass Reloaded from a southern guy at work that new what he was doing and those full power loads would make that Colt kick like a MULE
Jeff Cooper's original specification for the 10mm was a 200 grain FMJ fired from a 5" barrel maintaining a striking velocity of at least 1,000 feet per second at "all reasonable handgun combat ranges," which he deemed to be 50 meters or less. The 200 grain FMJ out of your 5" 1911 averaged 1048 feet per second at 50 yards with the lowest shot being 1042 feet per second. That gives us an average striking energy at 50 yards of 487 energy foot pounds. It may be falling short of the box specs, but it's absolutely within spec. Even out of the Glock, it has an average V50 of 1029 feet per second with a low of 1023 feet per second and an average Ke50 of 470 energy foot pounds. The 170 grain JHP put up much better numbers, averaging 1159 feet per second out of the 1911 for an average of 506 energy foot pounds at 50 yards. Out of the Glock, it still cooked along with an average V50 of 1135 fps and an average Ke50 of 486 energy foot pounds. Unfortunately, 1980s bullet technology struck and made the 170 grain JHP fail to perform.
A very informative test that should be an eye-opener about the ideas pertaining to the old original loadings. The results with the hollow points were not surprising to me. I still remember back when hollow point autoloading handgun bullets started appearing on the scene and it’s obvious to me that ammunition manufacturers learned a lot over time. As you point out, this 170 grain HP doesn’t have any of the features of modern bullets, and I suspect that at the time it was made the companies just said, “You want a hollow point? Okay, here’s a bullet with a hollow point,” and no real idea how to make sure they would perform. Thanks to you and the one who sent you the ammo for us all to see the results.
I’ve tried a lot of 10mm ammo. Sig Sauer and Fiocchi is pretty consistent full power ammo. That won’t break the bank. Id love to see you test the Black Hills Gold 10mm Honey Badger ammo out! Love your videos!
I knew when this showed up in my feed that you were going to be disappointed with the results. There was so much hype about the 10mm back then and with the factory ammo available at that time. Today we are blessed with some excellent factory ammo and some excellent bullets for reloaders. The 10mm is a great round today thanks to modern bullet designs and modern powders. It's loaded mild to wild . It doesn't have to be loaded to magnum levels to be enjoyable all the time.
I don't think the point of this video was a comparison study. No, I think it was a straightforward evaluation of a round. In other words, here's something and here's what it can (did) do, a peek into the past. To condemn the round based on what it can do doesn't make too much sense. Maybe it'd be more pleasing to see an original 10mm versus a .500 S&W. Yawn. Sigh.
Glad to see the velocity of the 170 grainers. All old school hollow point bullets perform like this one. Bullet tech started to get better in the 1990's and now they're fantastic. Thanks for a great test!
I always love your 10mm videos, if only because it lets me avoid the underpowered stuff that ain't worth my money. I'm still a newbie so I never had a chance at these ammo boxes (Hell, I was a preschooler when they were made XD ) but it's fascinating to see this test round. It really makes you appreciate the properly loaded stuff a lot more. Speaking of, could you test some of the modern factory FMJ 10mm loads as well? I'd like to get some practice rounds as close as possible to the actual "use" rounds, at least in terms of kickback so I can practice without spending too much money.
Wow. The JHP had the wound tract of a hardcast. Not good. News Update: Spoke with my wife this evening. We do some cycling in areas that have mountain lion and bear. I have been carrying a 9mm, but explained the benefits of the 10mm to her. Also explained that my G20 is too large to take on our bikes, and carefully explained how the smaller G29 would do the trick. She said that she trusts my judgement, so I will be heading to the gun store on Tuesday for a G29. Man, I have a GREAT wife!!!!
I believe I saw on Chuke's Outdoor Adventures where the 9mm penetrated just as far as the 10mm. You should check it out. So outdoor woods carry, I carry my Sig P365XL with a Wilson Combat grip module, Tactical Trigger mod, and a 4.2" SS threaded barrel from True Precision. Small, lightweight, accurate, reliable, and very concealable. So I've been leaving my Glock 20 at home.
The Underwood 155 gr .40 round out of a shorter 4 inch barrel gets 1300 fps with 585 ft. lbs. of energy. The only difference is the 10 mm 170gr is 15 gr heavier but has an inch longer barrel. I just can't get excited about the 10mm, mainly because I have all the power I need with a .40 and 357 Sig.
This quickly became well known back in the day : The OG Norma was plenty fast . The 170 gr HP had little to no expansion . The W-W 175 Silvertip quickly became the old days Gold Standard .
I just saw 6 boxes of this ammo at a gun show i went to today.....$80 a box.... tempting but im glad i passed now. Thanks for the great OG tests tools appreciate you and all you do ✌️
I had a 5 boxes of that 170 back in the day. There was a magazine writer who hunted hogs with them and their performance in hogs was impressive, blowing huge exit holes. It's been so long I can't remember what magazine or writer it was though. I bought it bunch based on that article.
How do these sound? Quote from Buffalo Bore developer. When carrying a 10MM for social purposes, I carry two rounds of item 21F up first, followed by the remainder of the magazine being stuffed with item 21G. Over ten years ago, I developed items 21F and 21G for my personal use. They did not have an item # then………..they were designed only for my personal use and I was carrying a Colt Delta Elite for normal social carry, but grew concerned about being slow on my follow-up shots with our full power 10MM ammo. Hence, I designed these TACTICAL 10MM loads for my use and am now offering them to the public for the same very good reason I carried them many years ago.
I pack the 200 grain Underwood HC here in grizz country. I just haven't run the Buffalo Bore thru it enough yet. I can just say, I need quality ammo for any self protection scenarios. I don't even run anything else thru that G20 (KKM barrel, heavier spring). I love the 10mil!
Got the notification, got excited. Seen the performance and was disappointed. I do appreciate you using my carry gun of choice, 1911 Government size, in 10 mil.
I'd rather just hand load 10mm to my own desired specifications. Buffalo Bore might be the only brand I like and it's too expensive to buy in bulk. "If you want something done right, do it yourself" jelly time.
Great, fun to watch test, even with less than stellar performance out of the Norma. I am in the 5” camp, so nice to see the comparison of the two barrel lengths even though they are close to same length. Great job man!!!
The first 10mm that I ever fired were some of those (200 gr FP) out of one of the first Colt Delta Elites in Atlanta. It woke me up! The Delta Elites did not hold up well...
You nailed it with the limp-wristed FBI shooters. They then went to the .40 S&W and had the same problem. They dropped down to the 9mm and I'm betting they still have shooters who struggle. It's hilarious the manufacturers are pushing the 10mm in it's watered down versions and trying to convince the shooting world that the .40 S&W is obsolete. They have nearly succeeded in that as some YT channels tell us that as well. Real time shootings with the .40 show they are mistaken. The 9mm is more effective in movies than reality, though it's a great cartridge, you'd better have good shot placement, though that's key with any cartridge.
@@LogisticallyMisrepresented it was a lot of fun, this was the stuff that made the FBI whine about recoil. lol. It's also the stuff that was damaging frames that weren't up to the recoil they dealt. One of the reasons they neutered the caliber. pity, a firearm truly built for it had no trouble at all. I had the colt delta elite with heavy duty springs and a buffer. it was a blast.
Great review! Now I see how these early Norma cartridges could cause frame cracks in the early Bren Ten's and later 1980's Colt Delta Elites! On their Norma website, no 10 MM Auto cartridges listed....nor 40 S&W....
Great test! Obviously, bullet technology has progressed a lot in the last 40 years... Really, for personal protection, the 40 S&W with good bullets like HST's are about perfect - no need for 10mm velocities. Dangerous game and barrier penetration is another thing.
No surprise to me with 170's. My Colt DE did the same with mid-80's Norma jhp. Bullet tech at the time and being first in line to mfgr.....no comparison to work with. No2, I *did* have occasion to use it on small game (groundhogs) Did. Ok but not regular AFA expansion; some did, some didn't. Accurate as all git out to 100 yd plus, tho. Saving grace is that for most modern uses afield, you'd want that penetration, especially for larger game defense
40 plus years ago Norma 10mm ammo was to hot for the guns available. The only ammo worth a crap at the time was Corbon 135 grain hollow points for self defense and Winchester 175 silvertip for deer. 10mm fmj of that era was only only intended to improve on the performance of 9mm and 45 and it did. Still does.
We are fortunate that technology for bullet design has come a long way since 1983. Results like this may explain why the 10mm failed to achieve the street results of the .357 Mag back when Evan Marshall was gathering data. Some of the better 10mm bullets today are substantially more impressive.
I always heard that the old norma projectiles were bad i also heard that they did skimp on powder on fmj because it wasnt for duty or protection use. That could explain the weak performance of the 200 fmj.
As usual, great job! Pity about the JHP failing to expand. I wish the other manufacturers would follow Underwood's lead in loading 10mm the way it is supposed to be.
I dug deep into an old ammo stash the other day and found a 25 count of 357 reloads with speer 146 grain half jackets, loaded circa 1981. Shot a dozen to see,,, still had plenty of sizzle.!
I just got back from a camp trip of 2 days, involving lots of shooting. I have absolutely ancient ammo that i was shooting both "new" and reloads. I shot 750 rounds this weekend and none of my ammo was newer than 15 years old. I even shot some old corrosive 7.62x39 manufactured in 1967. All of it ran fine.
Great video! I cant remember much about the 170 gr load I dont think it lasted very long. The FBI wanted a lighter load which lead to 40 S&W ammo. I dont think we had the gel back then for a comparison. There were very few chronographs around, also. We relied on the "Handgun Stopping Power" books.
Had high hopes after the speed of the 170, glad bullet technology has improved in the 41 years since the 10mm was developed. Was cool to see how close the listed speeds stacked up to reality. Thanks for the test Tools!
That has been my experience with that bullet as well - they looked beautifully made, they were accurate and consistent (loaded in 40 cal with vv350), but never expended in any medium I tried (no gel in 1994).
I still have have some Black Talon 200gr and some 200gr Hydra Shok's left over from the early 90's. I will have to give them try and see if they are what I remember. I still have my Delta Elite, had to put a new barrel in it. I still have an empty original Hornady 170 JHP box, I think that was some hot stuff as well.
Norma 170gr was their advertised top performer, not sure why they also offered the 200gr FMJ. I read Norma found in their load development that lighter bullets 165-155gr optimized energy, but they didn’t see much market for the 10mm anyway at the time. There wasn’t much JHP pistol bullet jacket development by any ammo manufacturers back in the 80’s.
I remember them well. I had a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and several boxes of the original Norma Ammo that you are testing, I killed a Deer and Two Wild Hogs with the JHP's. It was my Woods and Camping Gun and was always on my hip. I believe the bullets were Nosler at the time, if I remember correctly.
The Norma 200 gr. FMJ was the first 10mm ammo produced for sale. I have an original 20 rd. box also. I will not be firing mine though it is collector ammo now.
Norma does still load 10mm. They have a 155 grain mhp rated at 1308fps. I personally have never shot them but you do see them for sale on psa occasionally. I would love to see them tested but I have low expectations!!
That ammo is Circa 1982ish and the bullet design is probably from the 1970s so it is not a current modern JHP like the ones we have today with bonded cores and tapering jackets to give consistent Mushrooming at given Velocities like what we see today from Nosler Projectiles like the ones that Underwood and Double Tap use in their current 10mm Auto offerings.
Thank you for bringing the nostalgia. I'm not surprised by the poor performance of 80s JHP. I think the best JHPs back in the day were the scalloped 357s and the 200gr CCI flying ashtrays in 45 Auto.
These projectiles were made in a time where expansion was a lot of hit or miss in pistol calibers. Cooper was most concerned with penetration being significantly better than 45 ACP and velocity being high enough to shrink the trajectory from the 45 ACP to something closer to 357 Mag. While this round does penetrate far better than a 45 ACP of the time and does shoot flatter, the expansion is terrible. It may deform somewhat if it hits bone but I don't know that it would expand in flesh.
Maybe shoot one 170 in bare gel? As a long time fan of the 10mm from back in the day, disappointing to see this, but glad some contemporary 10mm is exceptional. Hope more companies bring more offerings to the market.
I predicted exactly this result when you first showed of this ammo. Although i didn't shoot ot in gel i knew what the velocity was going to be. At least on the 200gr load. My old brain recalled the 200 feeling hotter than the 170 back when yhis stuff was new. I guess in our hearts we wanted it to perform well in the gel....but to be perfectly honest the only bullets i recall from the era performing to the standard of today were the old SJHP bullets from Remington in the magnum revolver rounds.
Yeah, it honestly didn't occur to me that we might have a bullet performance problem until I actually saw how very basic the 170 was. Interesting to see none the less.😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets I agree, I was anxious to see what results you got! It also goes to show that even with 40 year old tech they could get the velocity 10mm should be loaded to!
You cracked me up, i cant wait to see your Better Health ad coming soon!! Was cool to see this old school stuff, but i think i was just as excited to see you were gonna run that new gorgeous 1911 you got for it! Definitely a shame that bullet design was so bad that it didnt perform, but still interesting to see an old round tested. Good as always Tools.
The original Norma 170 grain JHP had more than enough velocity, but the bullet was not really designed for expansion. JHP bullet technology has come a long way since the 1980's.
Interesting when you were showing the bullets - the 200 grain had an exposed base and the 170 HP had the nose exposed of course =- but it struck me that they used the exact same type of jacket for both - just reversed.
Dude, I get excited, when I start to see YOU getting excited! …let’s not talk 200 grain. 😂 After how many years, I realize if YOU’RE excited, then it’s definitely something to get excited about! Bummed by the jelly test though. I DO wish Norma was performing the way they USED to! I still remember my Dad telling me back in the 80’s, when I found some Norma 7mm mag in his gun cabinet, that “those are HOT loads”…and he was talking about factory loads. Haha!
Just for grins and chuckles try testing .41 Magnum JHP rounds out of a four-inch barrel compared to current 10mm loadings. Keep in mind that Cooper was looking for a replacement for the .38Spl/.357 Magnum and the hand full of .41 Magnum revolvers utilized by LEOs back then. I'm so old that I recall him saying, in print at least, that the 10mm was superior to the .45ACP. The problem I had with the 10mm, at least in the 1980s and early 1990s, was that there were only two pistols that fit my hand. The Colt's 10mm 1911 version and the "Baby Glock". In fact, my fifty-yard scores were better with the Glock than with the Colt's, and a S&W I tried....And I am anything but a fan of Glock pistols. But then I don't think much of Henry rifles, or their revolver for that matter, either. I'll never own either of those brands as long as I have others to choose from. Great video as usual.
I wonder if those HP's would work if you cut some skives in them with a triangle file or a Dremel cutting wheel. I'm super curious if you can mod the ammo and make it work!! Consider it TnT, would make a great video 🤔🥼 😁.
Disappointed in these 10mm results but thanks for the video! If you'd be interested I'd love to see some 9mm "spoon" rounds tested. It's just an fmj round nose with a small flat sanded/grinded on the bullet tip at a 120° angle. You're only removing about 1 grain of material. This is supposed to induce dramatic tumbling on the round once it hits a soft target. I'd love to see a few of them put into a gel block and see if they actually work.
I had to watch that one twice, the Better Health comment got me both times.🤣🤣🤣 I can't say I am that surprised, but dissapointed as well. Back in the late 70's early 80's, one of the "kid camp guns" was an old lever action .357 magnum. That thing killed deer the same with hollow points as it did with ball ammo, now I know why👍 80's bullet technology.
And this is why 10mm got a reputation of over penetrating early on. I tested some of this back in the early 90's into water through two layers of tshirt and one layer of sweatshirt material and had the same result - zero expansion.
i like 700 ft/lbs for 10 mm just seems like a standard to go for on a 4.6 inch barrel we can call 3.5 inches accounting for actual bullet travel on glock 20
@@ToolsandTargets acually its close to 3.5 inches of travel from nose of bullet, my 357 4 inch to close from nose so settle for 4 inches, i like to see 700 ft/lbs out of a 10 mm but we forget if its does its 3.5 inches travel in a 4.6 inch barrel wich is amazing
All the Hype i read abought Norma 10MM all these years...if that ammo was stored good which it looks like it was would not affect performance ...glad you did this for us...makes me Appreciate my 180gr.SIG VCrowns JHPs which i know expand Smokin.....Thanks again as Always Tools!!!😊
Bullets weren’t as advanced back then (even SuperVel). That’s why I went from 9mm to .45 in 1977. Today we have great bullets. Tools, you’re younger than me, but have you read anything about the .40 G&A wildcat, built on a Browning Hi-Power? Back then, it was hard to find jacketed .40 bullets. They finally used a JSP made for the 38-40, over a stiff charge of Blue Dot if memory serves. Lots of history leading to the 10mm.
I remember shooting those when I got the Colt Delta Elite back in 1987. It did throw the brass a lot further than expected, as well as everyone else on the range asking what I was shooting. Nice trip down memory lane just seeing those boxes.
😎👊
I still have a box with a few rounds left over. Got a lot of 10mm Lite brass. I wonder if the load is posted somewhere.
My Ronin will sling them 20 feet to the right and back of me my uncle was like damn that thing ejects the hell out of those cases lmao
@@terryburton971 Sadly I traded away my Delta Elite, but my TRP Operator does the same as your Ronin. 😁😁
@@normangiven6436 Not sure, I never did any reloading. The Turkey's Opinion does a lot of 10mm reloading and ammo testing.
Testing 40yr old 10mm ammo, is something you'll probably never see anywhere else people
😎👊
Don't test 84 year old buried dud bombs . They have a reputation.
Paul Harrel did a side by side of 1980s and current (2023 or so) Winchester Silvertip 9mm. Love vids like this
I've had and have some ammo over 25 or 30 years old and it still looks and fires great and some is even hotter than the ammo produced today . 😊
It's been done before.
Great test! 10mm weeding out the limp wrists since 1983!
😂
And breaking pistols. All of them. Bren, Colt, AMT, S&W. Seen ALL of them beat to failure in the late 80s.
Yes! lol 😂
@@rsbreeze With the full power loads.
I love to geek out over old ammo and the boxes they came in.
Same here
Same here as well.
Yup love em
Same here. I bought 4 boxes of this stuff, HP and FMJ. The ammo and boxes are in pristine condition. Can't help it, I'm a 10mm 🤓 nerd
Those old hollow point bullets got clogged up with clothing pretty easy.
It would have been interesting to see what kind of expansion you would have gotten with just bare gel.
Miss my COLT DELTA ELETE got it back in 1990 and ran lots of 10mm Loads and had my dad get all my Brass Reloaded from a southern guy at work that new what he was doing and those full power loads would make that Colt kick like a MULE
😎👊
Jeff Cooper's original specification for the 10mm was a 200 grain FMJ fired from a 5" barrel maintaining a striking velocity of at least 1,000 feet per second at "all reasonable handgun combat ranges," which he deemed to be 50 meters or less.
The 200 grain FMJ out of your 5" 1911 averaged 1048 feet per second at 50 yards with the lowest shot being 1042 feet per second. That gives us an average striking energy at 50 yards of 487 energy foot pounds. It may be falling short of the box specs, but it's absolutely within spec. Even out of the Glock, it has an average V50 of 1029 feet per second with a low of 1023 feet per second and an average Ke50 of 470 energy foot pounds.
The 170 grain JHP put up much better numbers, averaging 1159 feet per second out of the 1911 for an average of 506 energy foot pounds at 50 yards. Out of the Glock, it still cooked along with an average V50 of 1135 fps and an average Ke50 of 486 energy foot pounds.
Unfortunately, 1980s bullet technology struck and made the 170 grain JHP fail to perform.
Thanks for sharing
💥😎👊💥
A very informative test that should be an eye-opener about the ideas pertaining to the old original loadings. The results with the hollow points were not surprising to me. I still remember back when hollow point autoloading handgun bullets started appearing on the scene and it’s obvious to me that ammunition manufacturers learned a lot over time. As you point out, this 170 grain HP doesn’t have any of the features of modern bullets, and I suspect that at the time it was made the companies just said, “You want a hollow point? Okay, here’s a bullet with a hollow point,” and no real idea how to make sure they would perform. Thanks to you and the one who sent you the ammo for us all to see the results.
I’ve tried a lot of 10mm ammo. Sig Sauer and Fiocchi is pretty consistent full power ammo. That won’t break the bank. Id love to see you test the Black Hills Gold 10mm Honey Badger ammo out! Love your videos!
Thank you sir.😎👊
Outside of boutique loaders, Sig does make a good 180gr 10mm for big box off the shelf.
I knew when this showed up in my feed that you were going to be disappointed with the results.
There was so much hype about the 10mm back then and with the factory ammo available at that time.
Today we are blessed with some excellent factory ammo and some excellent bullets for reloaders.
The 10mm is a great round today thanks to modern bullet designs and modern powders. It's loaded mild to wild . It doesn't have to be loaded to magnum levels to be enjoyable all the time.
I don't think the point of this video was a comparison study. No, I think it was a straightforward evaluation of a round. In other words, here's something and here's what it can (did) do, a peek into the past. To condemn the round based on what it can do doesn't make too much sense. Maybe it'd be more pleasing to see an original 10mm versus a .500 S&W. Yawn. Sigh.
Glad to see the velocity of the 170 grainers. All old school hollow point bullets perform like this one. Bullet tech started to get better in the 1990's and now they're fantastic. Thanks for a great test!
Hey, they worked for Sonny Crockett.
I always love your 10mm videos, if only because it lets me avoid the underpowered stuff that ain't worth my money.
I'm still a newbie so I never had a chance at these ammo boxes (Hell, I was a preschooler when they were made XD ) but it's fascinating to see this test round. It really makes you appreciate the properly loaded stuff a lot more.
Speaking of, could you test some of the modern factory FMJ 10mm loads as well? I'd like to get some practice rounds as close as possible to the actual "use" rounds, at least in terms of kickback so I can practice without spending too much money.
Wow. The JHP had the wound tract of a hardcast. Not good. News Update: Spoke with my wife this evening. We do some cycling in areas that have mountain lion and bear. I have been carrying a 9mm, but explained the benefits of the 10mm to her. Also explained that my G20 is too large to take on our bikes, and carefully explained how the smaller G29 would do the trick. She said that she trusts my judgement, so I will be heading to the gun store on Tuesday for a G29. Man, I have a GREAT wife!!!!
Nice! Been carrying the G29 since I got it.😎👊
Thor's Hammer
My G29 in a Vedder OWB is like a Mastercard. Never leave home without it.
I believe I saw on Chuke's Outdoor Adventures where the 9mm penetrated just as far as the 10mm. You should check it out. So outdoor woods carry, I carry my Sig P365XL with a Wilson Combat grip module, Tactical Trigger mod, and a 4.2" SS threaded barrel from True Precision. Small, lightweight, accurate, reliable, and very concealable. So I've been leaving my Glock 20 at home.
The Underwood 155 gr .40 round out of a shorter 4 inch barrel gets 1300 fps with 585 ft. lbs. of energy. The only difference is the 10 mm 170gr is 15 gr heavier but has an inch longer barrel. I just can't get excited about the 10mm, mainly because I have all the power I need with a .40 and 357 Sig.
This quickly became well known back in the day :
The OG Norma was plenty fast .
The 170 gr HP had little to no expansion .
The W-W 175 Silvertip quickly became the old days Gold Standard .
I just saw 6 boxes of this ammo at a gun show i went to today.....$80 a box.... tempting but im glad i passed now.
Thanks for the great OG tests tools appreciate you and all you do ✌️
I had a 5 boxes of that 170 back in the day. There was a magazine writer who hunted hogs with them and their performance in hogs was impressive, blowing huge exit holes. It's been so long I can't remember what magazine or writer it was though. I bought it bunch based on that article.
Yeah, it's gonna put a hurtin on something whether it expands or not.💥🐗💥
Keith Warren maybe?
How do these sound? Quote from Buffalo Bore developer.
When carrying a 10MM for social purposes, I carry two rounds of item 21F up first, followed by the remainder of the magazine being stuffed with item 21G. Over ten years ago, I developed items 21F and 21G for my personal use. They did not have an item # then………..they were designed only for my personal use and I was carrying a Colt Delta Elite for normal social carry, but grew concerned about being slow on my follow-up shots with our full power 10MM ammo. Hence, I designed these TACTICAL 10MM loads for my use and am now offering them to the public for the same very good reason I carried them many years ago.
This is a powerful display of modern bullet design and engineering over the past 40 years
Awesome ! To think that Underwood used to make something pretty comparable to the 170 grain.
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I got spicier load from underwood......185 at 1400 and it shoots true from my 5 inch
I didn't know today was Christmas! I love your 10mm vids
Appreciate ya, brother!😎👊
I feel your pain, Brother! Disgusting and disheartening!!
Man, I’m telling you that OG 200 Grainer is a beautiful bear protection gun for grizzly. They just have to be used for the right purpose.
Little light in the britches compared to some of the other 200's.
I pack the 200 grain Underwood HC here in grizz country. I just haven't run the Buffalo Bore thru it enough yet. I can just say, I need quality ammo for any self protection scenarios. I don't even run anything else thru that G20 (KKM barrel, heavier spring). I love the 10mil!
@@ToolsandTargets Great for subsonic, suppressed
I still don't have a 10mm, but I'll watch about any ammo reviews, even the air rifles. Keep up the great work, sir👍.
Got the notification, got excited. Seen the performance and was disappointed. I do appreciate you using my carry gun of choice, 1911 Government size, in 10 mil.
😎👊
This is reliving history and a real tribute. Love it as always 👍
Defensive bullet design has come a long way since the 80s. It's interesting to see how much with a test like this. Thanks!
I don't like to see you emotional when a 10mm turns out to be a 40 S&W +p. Thats what most 10mm is. Still great video as always thanks! Your the man!
Thank you sir.😎👊
Me and my 10mm buddy calls those "40 long" loads
I'd rather just hand load 10mm to my own desired specifications. Buffalo Bore might be the only brand I like and it's too expensive to buy in bulk.
"If you want something done right, do it yourself" jelly time.
Agreed
Great, fun to watch test, even with less than stellar performance out of the Norma. I am in the 5” camp, so nice to see the comparison of the two barrel lengths even though they are close to same length.
Great job man!!!
The first 10mm that I ever fired were some of those (200 gr FP) out of one of the first Colt Delta Elites in Atlanta.
It woke me up!
The Delta Elites did not hold up well...
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You nailed it with the limp-wristed FBI shooters. They then went to the .40 S&W and had the same problem. They dropped down to the 9mm and I'm betting they still have shooters who struggle. It's hilarious the manufacturers are pushing the 10mm in it's watered down versions and trying to convince the shooting world that the .40 S&W is obsolete. They have nearly succeeded in that as some YT channels tell us that as well. Real time shootings with the .40 show they are mistaken. The 9mm is more effective in movies than reality, though it's a great cartridge, you'd better have good shot placement, though that's key with any cartridge.
Remington 165 grain JHP was the GOAT for 10mm back in the day.
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165 to 175 is a good weight/size/speed zone for the caliber. Must have been fun to blast some 😃
@@LogisticallyMisrepresented it was a lot of fun, this was the stuff that made the FBI whine about recoil. lol. It's also the stuff that was damaging frames that weren't up to the recoil they dealt. One of the reasons they neutered the caliber. pity, a firearm truly built for it had no trouble at all. I had the colt delta elite with heavy duty springs and a buffer. it was a blast.
The 10 mm Colt and the Glock 20 kept that cartridge alive all these years
Still have my S&W 1006 and 1076 👍
Great review! Now I see how these early Norma cartridges could cause frame cracks in the early Bren Ten's and later 1980's Colt Delta Elites! On their Norma website, no 10 MM Auto cartridges listed....nor 40 S&W....
Thank you sir.😎👊
Great test! Obviously, bullet technology has progressed a lot in the last 40 years... Really, for personal protection, the 40 S&W with good bullets like HST's are about perfect - no need for 10mm velocities. Dangerous game and barrier penetration is another thing.
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No surprise to me with 170's. My Colt DE did the same with mid-80's Norma jhp. Bullet tech at the time and being first in line to mfgr.....no comparison to work with. No2, I *did* have occasion to use it on small game (groundhogs) Did. Ok but not regular AFA expansion; some did, some didn't. Accurate as all git out to 100 yd plus, tho.
Saving grace is that for most modern uses afield, you'd want that penetration, especially for larger game defense
40 plus years ago Norma 10mm ammo was to hot for the guns available. The only ammo worth a crap at the time was Corbon 135 grain hollow points for self defense and Winchester 175 silvertip for deer. 10mm fmj of that era was only only intended to improve on the performance of 9mm and 45 and it did. Still does.
$11.95 price tag on those rounds 😮. The Good old days 😊
Not when you were making $5.25 an hour! 🤣🤣🤣
@@jd750ace1 good point 🧐💸
@@jd750ace1your money had more buying power then
You always provide amazing ballistic reviews! Great job!! Thanks for turning me onto AAC 10mm.🙏🏿🇺🇸🙏🏿🇺🇸
We are fortunate that technology for bullet design has come a long way since 1983. Results like this may explain why the 10mm failed to achieve the street results of the .357 Mag back when Evan Marshall was gathering data. Some of the better 10mm bullets today are substantially more impressive.
I always heard that the old norma projectiles were bad i also heard that they did skimp on powder on fmj because it wasnt for duty or protection use. That could explain the weak performance of the 200 fmj.
Absolutely awesome this is some of the original production stuff when it was a new cartridge,Norma was the first to load It
As usual, great job! Pity about the JHP failing to expand. I wish the other manufacturers would follow Underwood's lead in loading 10mm the way it is supposed to be.
Norma Jelly Time. 😎
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It’s nice to know we can nowadays get those velocities off the shelf with those same bullet weights , but with better performance. Great test !
I used this ammo in my SW 1066 back in the day.
Seeing my favorite piece tickles me. I’ve sat around and stared at my MR10mm. Such a beauty.
Strange comments from the bots, lol. I have lots of 25 plus year old reloads. They still go bang when requested to.
Yeah, they make zero sense.😂
@@franzputsch254 says the bot. :)
I dug deep into an old ammo stash the other day and found a 25 count of 357 reloads with speer 146 grain half jackets, loaded circa 1981. Shot a dozen to see,,, still had plenty of sizzle.!
I just got back from a camp trip of 2 days, involving lots of shooting. I have absolutely ancient ammo that i was shooting both "new" and reloads. I shot 750 rounds this weekend and none of my ammo was newer than 15 years old. I even shot some old corrosive 7.62x39 manufactured in 1967. All of it ran fine.
Yea but how bad do they smell? I was shooting 30 year old 12 gauge shells the other day and it was terrible i started coughing
Great video!
I cant remember much about the 170 gr load I dont think it lasted very long. The FBI wanted a lighter load which lead to 40 S&W ammo.
I dont think we had the gel back then for a comparison. There were very few chronographs around, also. We relied on the "Handgun Stopping Power" books.
I still have half a box each of the original Norma 200 gr and 165 gr. It goes with my original Bren Ten in the safe. 3:46
Had high hopes after the speed of the 170, glad bullet technology has improved in the 41 years since the 10mm was developed. Was cool to see how close the listed speeds stacked up to reality. Thanks for the test Tools!
That has been my experience with that bullet as well - they looked beautifully made, they were accurate and consistent (loaded in 40 cal with vv350), but never expended in any medium I tried (no gel in 1994).
I still have have some Black Talon 200gr and some 200gr Hydra Shok's left over from the early 90's. I will have to give them try and see if they are what I remember. I still have my Delta Elite, had to put a new barrel in it. I still have an empty original Hornady 170 JHP box, I think that was some hot stuff as well.
“Respek on its name” got my wife to come into the man cave like, “wtf did he just say”? 😂
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My wife is prohibited from my cave!✊🏻
@@bigracer3867 so long as she doesn't return you the same kindness.
Norma 170gr was their advertised top performer, not sure why they also offered the 200gr FMJ.
I read Norma found in their load development that lighter bullets 165-155gr optimized energy, but they didn’t see much market for the 10mm anyway at the time. There wasn’t much JHP pistol bullet jacket development by any ammo manufacturers back in the 80’s.
A test of the 9x25 Dillon with a super hot load out of a 8" barrel would be to darn nice to see at some time.
Great video! Nice to see some Norma
Thank you sir. Shame they didn't act better.😆
What about putting a pine board in front to simulate bone
I remember them well. I had a Colt Delta Elite 10mm and several boxes of the original Norma Ammo that you are testing, I killed a Deer and Two Wild Hogs with the JHP's. It was my Woods and Camping Gun and was always on my hip. I believe the bullets were Nosler at the time, if I remember correctly.
The Norma 200 gr. FMJ was the first 10mm ammo produced for sale. I have an original 20 rd. box also. I will not be firing mine though it is collector ammo now.
AWESOME VIDEO!! Thank you this was really enjoyable, Tools !!
I have a few boxes of this ammo as well. ❤❤❤
It broke my heart.😢
@@ToolsandTargets hahaha. Yea. I dont shoot mine either!
Norma does still load 10mm. They have a 155 grain mhp rated at 1308fps. I personally have never shot them but you do see them for sale on psa occasionally. I would love to see them tested but I have low expectations!!
Shows how far bullet technology has come! Crazy that even 1300 fps wouldn't get a hollow point to do its thing. Thanks for the test.
That ammo is Circa 1982ish and the bullet design is probably from the 1970s so it is not a current modern JHP like the ones we have today with bonded cores and tapering jackets to give consistent Mushrooming at given Velocities like what we see today from Nosler Projectiles like the ones that Underwood and Double Tap use in their current 10mm Auto offerings.
Thank you for bringing the nostalgia. I'm not surprised by the poor performance of 80s JHP. I think the best JHPs back in the day were the scalloped 357s and the 200gr CCI flying ashtrays in 45 Auto.
These projectiles were made in a time where expansion was a lot of hit or miss in pistol calibers. Cooper was most concerned with penetration being significantly better than 45 ACP and velocity being high enough to shrink the trajectory from the 45 ACP to something closer to 357 Mag. While this round does penetrate far better than a 45 ACP of the time and does shoot flatter, the expansion is terrible. It may deform somewhat if it hits bone but I don't know that it would expand in flesh.
Love the channel. You really have me considering picking up a 10mm instead of a. 40 SW
Maybe shoot one 170 in bare gel? As a long time fan of the 10mm from back in the day, disappointing to see this, but glad some contemporary 10mm is exceptional. Hope more companies bring more offerings to the market.
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Yes. Another awesome vid! Keep ‘em coming my guy!!
Appreciate that!😎👊
I predicted exactly this result when you first showed of this ammo. Although i didn't shoot ot in gel i knew what the velocity was going to be. At least on the 200gr load. My old brain recalled the 200 feeling hotter than the 170 back when yhis stuff was new. I guess in our hearts we wanted it to perform well in the gel....but to be perfectly honest the only bullets i recall from the era performing to the standard of today were the old SJHP bullets from Remington in the magnum revolver rounds.
Yeah, it honestly didn't occur to me that we might have a bullet performance problem until I actually saw how very basic the 170 was. Interesting to see none the less.😎👊
@@ToolsandTargets I agree, I was anxious to see what results you got! It also goes to show that even with 40 year old tech they could get the velocity 10mm should be loaded to!
You cracked me up, i cant wait to see your Better Health ad coming soon!! Was cool to see this old school stuff, but i think i was just as excited to see you were gonna run that new gorgeous 1911 you got for it! Definitely a shame that bullet design was so bad that it didnt perform, but still interesting to see an old round tested. Good as always Tools.
😂 That would have been the perfect segue for a Better Help ad!
@@ToolsandTargets lol no doubt brother!
I don't see ANY cuts or skives on the jacket of the JHP at all. It can't open up if you don't cut the jackets right!
Yeah, it's basic as can be. I read somewhere that these original bullets were swaged by Sierra. That would make sense.
The original Norma 170 grain JHP had more than enough velocity, but the bullet was not really designed for expansion. JHP bullet technology has come a long way since the 1980's.
Yes indeed
Interesting ammo test Tools 🇺🇸👊
Appreciate that, brother.😎👊
Interesting when you were showing the bullets - the 200 grain had an exposed base and the 170 HP had the nose exposed of course =- but it struck me that they used the exact same type of jacket for both - just reversed.
It was some thick stuff too.
the wound tracks from all 3 look pretty good despite the failure to expand, interesting
Big ol piece of lead moving quick is still nasty stuff.
Dude, I get excited, when I start to see YOU getting excited! …let’s not talk 200 grain. 😂
After how many years, I realize if YOU’RE excited, then it’s definitely something to get excited about!
Bummed by the jelly test though.
I DO wish Norma was performing the way they USED to!
I still remember my Dad telling me back in the 80’s, when I found some Norma 7mm mag in his gun cabinet, that “those are HOT loads”…and he was talking about factory loads. Haha!
Just for grins and chuckles try testing .41 Magnum JHP rounds out of a four-inch barrel compared to current 10mm loadings. Keep in mind that Cooper was looking for a replacement for the .38Spl/.357 Magnum and the hand full of .41 Magnum revolvers utilized by LEOs back then. I'm so old that I recall him saying, in print at least, that the 10mm was superior to the .45ACP. The problem I had with the 10mm, at least in the 1980s and early 1990s, was that there were only two pistols that fit my hand. The Colt's 10mm 1911 version and the "Baby Glock". In fact, my fifty-yard scores were better with the Glock than with the Colt's, and a S&W I tried....And I am anything but a fan of Glock pistols. But then I don't think much of Henry rifles, or their revolver for that matter, either. I'll never own either of those brands as long as I have others to choose from. Great video as usual.
Thanks for posting.
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...MAN!!! I haven't sent those old 20 round Norma boxes on YEARS!!!
Pretty cool stuff.
I wonder if those HP's would work if you cut some skives in them with a triangle file or a Dremel cutting wheel. I'm super curious if you can mod the ammo and make it work!! Consider it TnT, would make a great video 🤔🥼 😁.
Disappointed in these 10mm results but thanks for the video! If you'd be interested I'd love to see some 9mm "spoon" rounds tested. It's just an fmj round nose with a small flat sanded/grinded on the bullet tip at a 120° angle. You're only removing about 1 grain of material. This is supposed to induce dramatic tumbling on the round once it hits a soft target. I'd love to see a few of them put into a gel block and see if they actually work.
I had to watch that one twice, the Better Health comment got me both times.🤣🤣🤣
I can't say I am that surprised, but dissapointed as well. Back in the late 70's early 80's, one of the "kid camp guns" was an old lever action .357 magnum. That thing killed deer the same with hollow points as it did with ball ammo, now I know why👍 80's bullet technology.
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I wonder if the old 175 Winchester silvertip 10mm would be better?
My condolences to you sir
Love your 10mm videos! Very informative!
And this is why 10mm got a reputation of over penetrating early on. I tested some of this back in the early 90's into water through two layers of tshirt and one layer of sweatshirt material and had the same result - zero expansion.
Please test the Speer gold dot 9mm Carbine out of a 16inch PCC please
i like 700 ft/lbs for 10 mm just seems like a standard to go for on a 4.6 inch barrel we can call 3.5 inches accounting for actual bullet travel on glock 20
Yep
@@ToolsandTargets acually its close to 3.5 inches of travel from nose of bullet, my 357 4 inch to close from nose so settle for 4 inches, i like to see 700 ft/lbs out of a 10 mm but we forget if its does its 3.5 inches travel in a 4.6 inch barrel wich is amazing
I had a delta elite. Need to pic up another. I currently have a F N 510. It's a bad ass handgun. 22 rounds of 10 mm seriously
a 10mm 1911 is my everyday carry loaded with underwood 180grn hollow points and I was wondering have you ever tested underwood ammunition.
I will gladly stay with the Sig 180g V-Crown
To bad about the ammo but it sure is cool to see more of that pistol. Really nice to have folks send ammo out for testing!❤❤❤
Definitely.😎👍
All the Hype i read abought Norma 10MM all these years...if that ammo was stored good which it looks like it was would not affect performance ...glad you did this for us...makes me Appreciate my 180gr.SIG VCrowns JHPs which i know expand Smokin.....Thanks again as Always Tools!!!😊
Yeah, another one of those cases where the legend is better than reality.😆
@@ToolsandTargets well said!!
Thanks Tools for another great vid. Memory can be a funny and fickle thing. Much like my first date wayyyyyyyyyy back when.
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Bullets weren’t as advanced back then (even SuperVel). That’s why I went from 9mm to .45 in 1977. Today we have great bullets. Tools, you’re younger than me, but have you read anything about the .40 G&A wildcat, built on a Browning Hi-Power? Back then, it was hard to find jacketed .40 bullets. They finally used a JSP made for the 38-40, over a stiff charge of Blue Dot if memory serves. Lots of history leading to the 10mm.
10 mil jelly time!
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In order to get optimum velocity from the 10mm, you need a 6" barrel, or handload your own.
Nearly every 10mm round in existence is designed around a 5" barrel.