📌 ATTENTION: The Force Feedback Stick (FFBeast) is now available for pre-order! Find it here: ffbeast.github.io/docs/en/joystick.html ------------------------------------ 🤜🏼🤛🏼 Support me on Patreon & gain access to the mission .miz file: www.patreon.com/command_t ------------------------------------- The boat and lighthouse are part of the Civilian Assets Pack Navy by Eight Ball: forum.dcs.world/topic/270558-civilian-objects-and-vehicles/
@@jasons9564 Yeah unfortunately you need to have this screwed to a base on the floor, but I highly recommend building/ buying yourself a platform for this if you can afford it. Totally worth it! :)
@@benjiman46 That you for your service sir. Did you ever get to see the English Electric lightening and the Avro Vulcan fly? Those are two of my favorite aircraft of all time.
@@ImpendingJokerthis is mostly because in a real helicopter you need to watch around you and below to hover. A lot more easy with VR. This is also why a lot of people without VR use devices like track IR, so they can look around with their head.
Real helicopter pilot here: I'm never flown a helicopter that had forced trim. The ones I have flown (R44, bell 206-L4, bell 505) The stick just stays wherever you put it, I'm never let go of the stick while flying but it feels like it would stay wherever you let go of it. I have flown in a R44 simulator and I can say it's significantly harder than real life even though the stick feels identical because you have zero feeling of anything. There's no friction in the stick and you can't feel the helicopter move so it's really hard to keep the stick in one spot without any feeling. I've never flown force trim but I feel like when flying a simulator it would be beneficial cuz it would give you some feeling (proprioception) of where the stick is since it would be a bit easier to feel it move. From what I read in the helicopter flying handbook page 4-17 force trim was invented mostly for airplane pilots that transition to helicopters to give it a bit more feeling like an airplane that has some resistance in the stick depending on which way you moved it as opposed to a regular helicopter stick that simply has no feeling anywhere in this travel.
ive been in a few b3 squirrels and the pilots like letting go and the stick will self centre, they can then adjust the radio, phone, keep it straight using their feet. excellent graphics, this looks fun, sound design is phenominal, nothing beats the rotor chop
The biggest issue with the DCS Huey is that it doesn't have the cyclic trim beeper switch implemented. That is the hat switch on the top of the cyclic. They have it modeled but it doesn't work like it is supposed to. This is even stranger when the Mi-24 has this feature along with the cyclic trim offset. This has been something that has always made me laugh every time they say that MSFS isn't realistic enough yet the Huey is the second oldest module and it has never been fixed. That said, I can fly it just as well as this with my Saitek X-56 Rhino.
@@vincentvoncarnapYup can say for a fact that it messed up with my fixed wing aircraft flying lol so I went back to the usual non reversed throttle for helicopters despite it being more intuitive when reversed
This is brilliant. Fantastic flying! The stick looks massive, beefy, a bit intimidating tbh. Really curious to hear more about FFB telemetry in DCS. In sim racing the software and hardware worked together to accelerate the development of FFB. Flight sims are way behind but hopefully can catch up.
Indeed! Yep, I'll do a fair few videos with this set up, and I'll dive into some more details later. The FFB info also needs to come from ED for all their modules and at the moment we only have some features and it varies module-to-module so you effectively end up tuning it yourself for a lot of stuff which is a bit of science and a black art all at once!
the red button on the cyclic is for trimming, it turns off force trim while held and once you release the new center is where you put it. I find it strange that you use the force trim switch on the center console
Sorry, could you clarify what you mean? I did use the red button to set a new trimmed position for the cyclic. I just demonstrated that you can fly with force trim off like Huey pilots told me they often did, and that way there is no need to use the trim button at all. What I didn't know is that there is no trim reset button in the real helicopter, apparently that is only for DCS.
@@CommandT Apologies then, I was just under the impression that you didnt use the designated red button for it. Just wanted to inform that theres a proper one on the cyclic rather than using the toggle one on the console. Sorry! Should have paid better attention :) I was pretty much flying without the force trim switch on, when I had my springless clutch joystick. That was way better than using the gamey trim switch where you reset your physical stick to center and then create an offset within the sim. After getting FFB it has definitely improved helis by 100%
I want one :) I am amazed at the precision you have with the collective when transitioning sideways next to the boat. I have a Warthog and the throttle used for collective is no where near that precise for me, I am having to constantly adjust collective. Very nice flying indeed.
Really nice video! I fly helis alot and I do notice the challenge to find that sweetspot with trim, using a Warthog Hogas setup. Which of course comes with a spring/recenter thingy. It is manageable but a bit picky to get right sometimes to keep the heli in a straight flight or steady hover. Then again the Warthog is not intended for helis, but it is still a nice setup. And it is mostly when flying the Huey the issue presents itself. Sometimes I prefer to fly untrimmed and keep the stick in a position manually, esspecially when I want to do precision rocket attacks (however precise they may be lol). But I must admit I got a bit inspired to have the kind of joystick you showcase when it comes to flying helis. Very cool.
Before FFB I just never used trim. I hated that "virtual" trim where I'd have to use trim reset and possibly screw myself when doing that. So I flew without using trim at all, with weak aftermarket springs or just regular springs and an extension - it's very much doable and isn't bad at all. After getting the Rhino, I can say FFB is better in every way possible, but yeah, you can learn how to fly with the TM as well, just an extension will mean the springs will feel a lot less stiff and with the weight of the TM F16/A10 grip you can sometimes just let go and it'll stay where it is too. ;) Nowadays there are bases with dampeners or whatever stuff where you can basically trim it, which is great, but it's still not what FFB trim gives you. ;)
I personally use the Ka-50 collective from Virpil. I don't have any other experience with any other collectives, so that's pretty much the best I can attest to... It's a great collective overall.
I've never flown a helicopter, and only had very limited experience flying small planes, so the following may be wrong. I would imagine that with force trim off, the cyclic would want to return to some sort of neutral position due to the aerodynamic forces acting on the rotor blades, a bit like a centering spring, while you're sat on the ground at least. Then in forward flight, there should be some force pulling the stick back towards you that you are constantly fighting against, otherwise force trim would not exist. Force Trim is there to relieve the pilot over longer durations, so instead of you holding against the pressure, the force trim does it, no? In a fixed wing for example, if you are constantly holding the yoke back to maintain level flight, you adjust the pitch trim to relieve that force. So without being able to feel what you are feeling, as you demonstrate force trim on at 02:30, to me that is how it should be setup for force trim off, a force returning the stick to the neutral position, as you gain speed I would imagine the force to hold the stick forward would increase, or the effective centre would move aft. I thought the force trim was a way of mechanically holding the stick in a position that it doesn't want to stay in. And in fact with force trim engaged it would be more difficult to move it away from that position, and that is why the force trim release button exists on the cyclic stick. I'm not sure how hydraulically assisted servos factor in. Thoughts?
Interestingly enough, the intuitive concept of the rotor aerodynamics providing a 'centring' of the controls isn't how it works out. Whether the controls are hydraulically boosted or not, the stick either tends to 'stay put' in the position you left it (roughly) or in really light machines like the R44, can just fall over if left to its own devices (with predictable results). Most modern helicopters equipped with force trim are designed to be flown with it on for a couple of reasons - it provides the baseline of the automation or stability augmentation systems, and/or it provides tactile feedback (force) about control displacement from neutral. It's also important to note that the neutral position in a helicopter varies, unlike that of a fixed wing aircraft, so it's helpful for the force trim system to give tactile information to the pilot about where they are in relation to neutral, as proprioception is less reliable. Hope that's of interest.
Not quite. I spoke to a few helicopter pilots including those that flew the Huey - the way I have it set up is correct. Also have a look at the reply by DCSDebfief below :)
@@CommandT you have it setup correctly, but to add to the discussion, there is a force pushing the cyclic back towards "center" from forward in cruise due to dissymmetry of lift. The trim is there to alleviate pilot workload of those forces in cruise. You would use the force trim in cruise, to set the new "center" for cruise attitude, but then turn it off when flying more precise maneuvers like landing or hovering. At least that's how I use trim in Robinson's but they don't have the same force trim setup, it's on or off.
@@DCSDebrief That's very interesting and thanks. I did watch a couple of videos on helicopter cyclic controls, but they were pretty basic "it does this" types, no mention of how it feels etc. One was a light helicopter, maybe an R44, and the instructor asks the student if they can feel the need to add constant forward and right pressure during forward flight at 80kts, though the student only replies with "I can sorta feel that yeah", so it didn't seem like a very strong force, the instructor then engages the force trim and asks how it feels now. th-cam.com/video/_Hrm3DRyKg8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wE81LBhn0VNIhqUg In another video, obviously something bigger and more modern, an Airbus H125, the pilot is showing how sensitive the cyclic is, and is just tapping the stick in different directions and it stays put and the helicopter is continuing it's roll or pitch change until the pilot taps the stick again. So I wasn't sure if that had more to do with a more sophisticated flight control system. th-cam.com/video/0cUXsCmi9Uc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=GHIPT5iPR95s3lDO I appreciate your input, thank you.
@@CommandT So after reading the other replies, may I ask you, with force trim on, when you press the actual "force trim" switch on the stick (not to be confused with your keybind for the force trim on/off switch on the panel) , does that set a new centre position with your setup? And then the trimmer reset, resets it to the middle?
So, I'm not sure how it's done in the Huey, but I do know at least for Take Off and Landing Proceedures for the Robinson R22 and R44 helicopters tell you to *turn off* the trim for those phases of flight.
I really want to try this force feedback system when it becomes available. I currently fly the Bell 429 and I prefer to fly with the force trim completely off so I don't have to constantly trim it or mash the interrupt switch. Not all pilots agree with that but that's how I like to fly at least for maneuvering. I've never flown a Huey in real life but I've always wanted to since it's so iconic. I missed my chance to get 222 time as the operator I work for replaced it with the 429 right before I started.
Jealous you get to fly the 429 anyway!! And the stick is now available for preorder. Have a look at the link in the pinned comment of the description if you’re interested.
I just scored a Logitech G940 FFB stick off ebay for 50 bucks. Untested. But if it does work? Hellz to the yeah!! And if it doesn't work let's hope it's not too hard to fix. Perhaps just a broken wire or solder joint.
Been said here already but dude reverse your throttle axis for more like a collective. It is much better - back/up to increase, forward/down to decrease.
Yeah my only issue with it is that I can’t mount it under my seat like they’ve designed so will have to figure out a solution for their stupid bracket that is on the right of the stick, might have to cut it off if I order it myself.
@@CommandT Will check how I can mount it myself, I use a custom cockpit with a big seat so if the bracket is not too long, maybe... will check that... and indeed to mount it we only need the holes near the collective. So maybe I'll ask a friend to cut this bracket shorter if it hinders my placement left of my seat.
@@CommandT if I check the picture on virpil website, sure the bracket is a bit long and designed to be put under the seat, but this is because it is designed for seats with a left arm, so in fact the collective is not that close to the seat. So even if do not put the bracket under the seat, maybe the positition will be ok.
@@CommandT If you do get the Virpil collective, do yourself a favor and get the counter-balance kit, too ( especially if you opt for the Apache grip). It's compact, works absolutely perfect, and is buttery smooth. Also, your video probably just cost me a grand.
FFBeast : 15Nm / motor, yeap, that"s a beast ! Did you try to apply the max torque on the stick just to see how you can handle it (muscular force applied) ? Just to know how one could feel 15Nm ... Thanks for your reply.
No because it’s ridiculous. With my 5cm extension it’s a crazy amount of force. I mean it’s “unflyable” haha. I guess the idea is that if you have a long extension then you can still get the realistic forces
@CommandT: Heard your comments about VR. You can get very nice clear image quality in VR today, but the cost of all the HW/gear including controllers/HOTAS is very high. At this level you need to make it into a serious hobby. BTW, I am only using the PC for DCS World. No other games. But again, if you are willing to spend USD1000k++ for a FFB stick base, I am sure you can afford a decent PC and VR headset? ☺
I have Crystals and image in DCS with quad view in full resolution is amazing. Future is now, and top headsets have super clear image almost like monitors.
So my main gripe is that this image clarity in VR comes at a high price in terms of DCS graphics settings. In VR you need (or at least I) need a perfectly smooth, non-jittery experience no matter where I fly - low over the forest or the middle of Beirut at 550kts. I know we have 8k headsets now but the hardware (not my PC, I mean in general) and VR optimization from ED's side is the limitation for me. Other's accept that to be in 3D they have to reduce the scenery graphics, shadows ect - I just can't stand that. If anything I want more details and more scenery complexity in VR because everything becomes huge and wrapped around your real head... but in the current VR world it's the opposite, you have to sacrifice scenery details (and the perceived resolution) just to be in 3D. There's no way you can run all game graphics settings on high/ maximum like I do in 2D whilst being in a VR headset. And I still don't believe the image quality in VR comes close to my big monitor, sorry. I mean not in practice whilst flying in DCS. I used a Reverb G2 before and I think there would need to be a x 6-8 times improvement in image clarity, brightness, quality and ability to jack the graphics/ scenery settings to the same as what I have in 2D for me to consider getting back into VR. I understand that I am a very demanding customer. If I was using DCS mainly for dogfighting I would use VR no issue all day, but my use case requires the best looking image that runs with zero jitters or fps loss.
@@CommandT It is possible today. I dont have the most possible powerfull PC. An i am playing in DCS, almost exerything on max settings, so the graphic is as great as in 2D, resolution 4200x5300, and 60FPS with reprojection to 120FPS. The key is eyetracking and fovated rendering with quad view.
@@DraveS21 Hmmmm. I am still not convinced, sorry! What VR headset are you using? The Pimax? Heard some things about it having varying degrees of quality
@@CommandTPimax Crystal, but similar experience is possible with Varjo Aero 2. And probably with Somium in future. I don't need to convince you ;). Just giving you information, that something what was impossible in near past, right now is possible. Its not cheap of course, because you steel need ~1,5k headset and powerful PC with at least RXT4080. But its possible to have incredible view, edge, to edge clarity, great FOV and good fps. (Saying again - the key is eye tracking with quad view which only DCS has now. Its boosting your FPS like two times) And for helicopter flying VR is amazing, because is much easier to evaluate the distance and relativity of movement. And of course this amazing feeling of being inside. But i understand its not for everyone. And some people still are not convinced.
Are you sure in a real helicopter when force trim is off the stick remains where you put it? Or maybe it depends on the helicopter? I talked to a real helicopter pilot and he told me in the helicopter he was flying if he releases the stick it falls over around the place.
I use the winwing black shark collective, which is good but I think the Virpil collective setup might be better, as with the sort of throttle base conversion of the winwing you can run into some "stiction" issues.
The solution I found with my WinWing Collective is add a counter balance with a small piece of pvc pipe and a heavy bolt end. This way I can have the friction just enough so there is no stickiness but because of the counterweight it will stay wherever it is when I take my hand off it. Work a treat 👍
@@CommandT the collective uses friction to stay in place when you release it, but the grip itself is quite heavy. So you either have the friction set lower and the grip can sag a bit when you let go, or higher and the force required to overcome the friction might cause some over input. There is always the possibility you find that perfect balance, but I haven’t found it yet after a year of tinkering with it.
I'm afraid I don't. However the Rhino by comparison looks nowhere near as solid or as beefy. Maybe it's very good, I don't know. But certainly would be strange if it could offer the same amount of force feedback... although I must admit that with a small extension that I use I am nowhere near the maximum force that FFBeast can create, so with a smaller stick extension there's definitely an argument for not needing a huge amount of force feedback. Sorry I can't give any more input on this :(
I'm definitely curious what a self-build would look like for this thing. It seems like a pretty interesting thing to be able to build, and would be incredible for the Apache, especially with something for the rudder pedals like the Virpil dampener.
Sure, but as I’ve explained in the video, the beauty of a force feedback stick is that you can set it up to replicate a helicopter cyclic… something you can’t do with a spring-loaded centre stick. So despite not using the actual “force feedback” feature of the stick it’s still the way to go for flying helicopters.
Check out Heli Mech on TH-cam. He is an aircraft mechanic who is building a 737 cockpit, but has designed a collective that he sells the plans for. I just need a bigger printer.
A shame the Little Bird you mentioned is a mod and not from one of the big devs. More likely to find it's way onto a cold war server if it's not a mod.
@@FGCH03 It is possible to have two extenders. One for VKB, One for Virpil. Each of extenders have wire connected to its controller. And you can switch extender with grip. Virpil and VKB have different connectors and different(and proprietary) protocol of communication. So it is impossible to have one single controller which have full support of all sticks. It is possible to 'hack' protocols and have 'partial' support, but full functionality is possible only with original controllers. Blackbox in case of VKB and Virpil controller - in case of using Virpil grips.
It would help alot if you make a flight model that way that center stick position with a regular spring stick also freezes your stick ingame and any movement you do goes from that freezed position. You wouldn't need a FF stick then. Also you would not have to stress your hand. I mean honestly, am I the only one who came to that conclusion?
DCS Looks great but impossible just to use a keyboard and mouse But you can fly choppers in GTA 5 , nice flying man make it all the better with a joystick tho.
I would say the price to realism/ feel/ enjoyment ratio is actually incredibly good value. But if you're happy using whatever you have then of course there's no need to switch :)
You must be out of your mind. I can tell you got that stick for free because 900 eruos or about $960US, is out of most people's price range. This is coming from one that worked on helicopters in real life for 20+ years, and fly helicopters almost exclusively in DCS and MSFS. This is roughly half of the new computer I am building so, no, this is a hard pass. You can get a used MS Sidewinder FFB stick way cheaper and works just as well. What a joke.
I’m sorry, but you come across as being fairly ignorant. You’re comparing an MS Sidewinder with this stick? It’s a bit like comparing a remote control Spitfire and an actual Spitfire. I obviously get that 900 euros is a lot of money for most people. And I’m not trying to tell anyone to sell their kidney for one of these. However, if you can afford it, then the experience between this and an MS Sodewinder is worth far more than 900 euros. But this is just my humble opinion. You are welcome to disagree of course.
@@CommandT Wow, ignorant am I? That is the only part of this I disagree with. haha I only said it works just as well as I have Sidewinder FFB stick and have owned one since they came out decades ago, so not only am I not ignorant on the subject, as one that has flown helicopters RL, and the Huey specifically in the Army, I know what difference a good stick can make. That said, I don't even use my Sidewinder because I find my X56 Rhino is better for flying helicopters as I can reduce the spring pressure to make it very light(using the lightest included spring and a zip tie to further compress it), so no, 900 euros is outrageous.
📌 ATTENTION: The Force Feedback Stick (FFBeast) is now available for pre-order! Find it here: ffbeast.github.io/docs/en/joystick.html
------------------------------------
🤜🏼🤛🏼 Support me on Patreon & gain access to the mission .miz file:
www.patreon.com/command_t
-------------------------------------
The boat and lighthouse are part of the Civilian Assets Pack Navy by Eight Ball: forum.dcs.world/topic/270558-civilian-objects-and-vehicles/
its not
@@dunbar555 its available to preorder, 899 euros
@@_cyantist done ! Sorry I was answering to the guy saying it was msfs2020
I was pretty excited about this until I saw the size. Probably not something I want around my desk :(
@@jasons9564 Yeah unfortunately you need to have this screwed to a base on the floor, but I highly recommend building/ buying yourself a platform for this if you can afford it. Totally worth it! :)
Listening to the thump thump thump of the Huey is really triggering flashbacks to my time in the Army doing airmobile operations with the 25th ID.
Thank you for your service (I'm ex Royal Air Force myself)
@@benjiman46 thank you for you're service benjiman!
@@benjiman46 That you for your service sir. Did you ever get to see the English Electric lightening and the Avro Vulcan fly? Those are two of my favorite aircraft of all time.
I love flying the Huey in sim. Even painted it up like my dads old UH-1 from the 240th AHC back in Vietnam
Force feed back, a buttkicker, VR headset, and you have a receipe for a fantastic time!😊
How about haptic vest and haptic gloves to add to that? 😃
VR is amazing. I am unable to fly without now. So much more immersion. :)
Sounds like a skill issue.
@@ImpendingJokerthis is mostly because in a real helicopter you need to watch around you and below to hover. A lot more easy with VR. This is also why a lot of people without VR use devices like track IR, so they can look around with their head.
@@ImpendingJoker More like...why would you....issue.
wow that's some excellent flying, you look so comfortable throwing this thing around with the new stick
Thanks! Yeah it's a piece of cake, honestly! :D
Love the sound of the blades biting into the air as you change their pitch
Yep! 😁
Real helicopter pilot here: I'm never flown a helicopter that had forced trim. The ones I have flown (R44, bell 206-L4, bell 505) The stick just stays wherever you put it, I'm never let go of the stick while flying but it feels like it would stay wherever you let go of it. I have flown in a R44 simulator and I can say it's significantly harder than real life even though the stick feels identical because you have zero feeling of anything. There's no friction in the stick and you can't feel the helicopter move so it's really hard to keep the stick in one spot without any feeling. I've never flown force trim but I feel like when flying a simulator it would be beneficial cuz it would give you some feeling (proprioception) of where the stick is since it would be a bit easier to feel it move.
From what I read in the helicopter flying handbook page 4-17 force trim was invented mostly for airplane pilots that transition to helicopters to give it a bit more feeling like an airplane that has some resistance in the stick depending on which way you moved it as opposed to a regular helicopter stick that simply has no feeling anywhere in this travel.
ive been in a few b3 squirrels and the pilots like letting go and the stick will self centre, they can then adjust the radio, phone, keep it straight using their feet. excellent graphics, this looks fun, sound design is phenominal, nothing beats the rotor chop
Thanks! And yeah, Huey has great chop! 😅
Well flown. You're the second best pilot I have ever seen on DCS so far - Maverick being the most skilful I have seen. Good job.
Ha, thanks, didn’t realise Maverick flys DCS 🤪
@@CommandT He flies everything bruv
I love Mav but often times he´s really pulling the guts out of every aircraft, especially helicopters.
12:30 just cruising along that cliff looks excellent!
The biggest issue with the DCS Huey is that it doesn't have the cyclic trim beeper switch implemented. That is the hat switch on the top of the cyclic. They have it modeled but it doesn't work like it is supposed to. This is even stranger when the Mi-24 has this feature along with the cyclic trim offset. This has been something that has always made me laugh every time they say that MSFS isn't realistic enough yet the Huey is the second oldest module and it has never been fixed. That said, I can fly it just as well as this with my Saitek X-56 Rhino.
No collective doesn't do this setup justice. Very cool man
I know! I agree with you! I need to buy a collective! :)
I reversed my throttle for collective-more like a collective, but can make for some moments flying the Harrier, etc.
Same here, highly recommended. Took me a few days to get used to it, but is very nice for helicopters.
Yeah, I totally see the idea, but I think I'll just buy a collective in the near future.
Heard that itll really mess with your muscle memory if you fly fixed and rotary wing
@@vincentvoncarnapYup can say for a fact that it messed up with my fixed wing aircraft flying lol so I went back to the usual non reversed throttle for helicopters despite it being more intuitive when reversed
@@vincentvoncarnap No it does not. I fly both just as much.
This is brilliant. Fantastic flying! The stick looks massive, beefy, a bit intimidating tbh. Really curious to hear more about FFB telemetry in DCS. In sim racing the software and hardware worked together to accelerate the development of FFB. Flight sims are way behind but hopefully can catch up.
Indeed! Yep, I'll do a fair few videos with this set up, and I'll dive into some more details later. The FFB info also needs to come from ED for all their modules and at the moment we only have some features and it varies module-to-module so you effectively end up tuning it yourself for a lot of stuff which is a bit of science and a black art all at once!
I would LOVE to review this stick. Either way I'm definitely going to be picking one up as I've wanted one for ages!
Oh nice!!
Awesome channel and great flying!
Thank you! 😃 Very kind!
I would totally buy one of these as long as the waiting lists are not several months plus I will be very excited.
From what I heard the first batch of sign ups should expect to wait 1.5-2 months
the red button on the cyclic is for trimming, it turns off force trim while held and once you release the new center is where you put it. I find it strange that you use the force trim switch on the center console
Sorry, could you clarify what you mean? I did use the red button to set a new trimmed position for the cyclic. I just demonstrated that you can fly with force trim off like Huey pilots told me they often did, and that way there is no need to use the trim button at all. What I didn't know is that there is no trim reset button in the real helicopter, apparently that is only for DCS.
@@CommandT Apologies then, I was just under the impression that you didnt use the designated red button for it. Just wanted to inform that theres a proper one on the cyclic rather than using the toggle one on the console.
Sorry! Should have paid better attention :)
I was pretty much flying without the force trim switch on, when I had my springless clutch joystick. That was way better than using the gamey trim switch where you reset your physical stick to center and then create an offset within the sim.
After getting FFB it has definitely improved helis by 100%
@@chronichurdle1802 Yeah there's no comparison for sure!
Indeed ffb is amazing for helicopters. I use another brand one but I like it a lot.
I want one :) I am amazed at the precision you have with the collective when transitioning sideways next to the boat. I have a Warthog and the throttle used for collective is no where near that precise for me, I am having to constantly adjust collective. Very nice flying indeed.
Thanks! I just use a regular throttle as you can see. Just small corrections :)
Virpil collective ofc. It has Thrustmaster's interface for grips, throttle control on pro version, and they already have an Apache's one for it.
Yeah I’m probably gonna get it!
Really nice video!
I fly helis alot and I do notice the challenge to find that sweetspot with trim, using a Warthog Hogas setup. Which of course comes with a spring/recenter thingy.
It is manageable but a bit picky to get right sometimes to keep the heli in a straight flight or steady hover. Then again the Warthog is not intended for helis, but it is still a nice setup.
And it is mostly when flying the Huey the issue presents itself.
Sometimes I prefer to fly untrimmed and keep the stick in a position manually, esspecially when I want to do precision rocket attacks (however precise they may be lol).
But I must admit I got a bit inspired to have the kind of joystick you showcase when it comes to flying helis. Very cool.
Oh nice to hear!
Before FFB I just never used trim. I hated that "virtual" trim where I'd have to use trim reset and possibly screw myself when doing that. So I flew without using trim at all, with weak aftermarket springs or just regular springs and an extension - it's very much doable and isn't bad at all. After getting the Rhino, I can say FFB is better in every way possible, but yeah, you can learn how to fly with the TM as well, just an extension will mean the springs will feel a lot less stiff and with the weight of the TM F16/A10 grip you can sometimes just let go and it'll stay where it is too. ;)
Nowadays there are bases with dampeners or whatever stuff where you can basically trim it, which is great, but it's still not what FFB trim gives you. ;)
I am a happy owner of a Logitech G940 Hotas with force feedback. I can't even fly helis in DCS without him.
I use my throttle 'backwards' to simulate a collective; ie. full forward is low collective and full back is max collective. It works well.
Yeah good idea but I got a collective now!
I would love to see a video where you show the entire stick, how you set it up and connect it to your PC.
Yeah I’ll do that at some point
Same here. Ex helicopter pilot here. I’ve considered removing the springs in my joystick, but something like this with force trim off seems perfect.
I personally use the Ka-50 collective from Virpil.
I don't have any other experience with any other collectives, so that's pretty much the best I can attest to... It's a great collective overall.
I've never flown a helicopter, and only had very limited experience flying small planes, so the following may be wrong.
I would imagine that with force trim off, the cyclic would want to return to some sort of neutral position due to the aerodynamic forces acting on the rotor blades, a bit like a centering spring, while you're sat on the ground at least.
Then in forward flight, there should be some force pulling the stick back towards you that you are constantly fighting against, otherwise force trim would not exist. Force Trim is there to relieve the pilot over longer durations, so instead of you holding against the pressure, the force trim does it, no?
In a fixed wing for example, if you are constantly holding the yoke back to maintain level flight, you adjust the pitch trim to relieve that force.
So without being able to feel what you are feeling, as you demonstrate force trim on at 02:30, to me that is how it should be setup for force trim off, a force returning the stick to the neutral position, as you gain speed I would imagine the force to hold the stick forward would increase, or the effective centre would move aft.
I thought the force trim was a way of mechanically holding the stick in a position that it doesn't want to stay in. And in fact with force trim engaged it would be more difficult to move it away from that position, and that is why the force trim release button exists on the cyclic stick.
I'm not sure how hydraulically assisted servos factor in.
Thoughts?
Interestingly enough, the intuitive concept of the rotor aerodynamics providing a 'centring' of the controls isn't how it works out. Whether the controls are hydraulically boosted or not, the stick either tends to 'stay put' in the position you left it (roughly) or in really light machines like the R44, can just fall over if left to its own devices (with predictable results). Most modern helicopters equipped with force trim are designed to be flown with it on for a couple of reasons - it provides the baseline of the automation or stability augmentation systems, and/or it provides tactile feedback (force) about control displacement from neutral. It's also important to note that the neutral position in a helicopter varies, unlike that of a fixed wing aircraft, so it's helpful for the force trim system to give tactile information to the pilot about where they are in relation to neutral, as proprioception is less reliable. Hope that's of interest.
Not quite. I spoke to a few helicopter pilots including those that flew the Huey - the way I have it set up is correct. Also have a look at the reply by DCSDebfief below :)
@@CommandT you have it setup correctly, but to add to the discussion, there is a force pushing the cyclic back towards "center" from forward in cruise due to dissymmetry of lift. The trim is there to alleviate pilot workload of those forces in cruise. You would use the force trim in cruise, to set the new "center" for cruise attitude, but then turn it off when flying more precise maneuvers like landing or hovering. At least that's how I use trim in Robinson's but they don't have the same force trim setup, it's on or off.
@@DCSDebrief That's very interesting and thanks. I did watch a couple of videos on helicopter cyclic controls, but they were pretty basic "it does this" types, no mention of how it feels etc. One was a light helicopter, maybe an R44, and the instructor asks the student if they can feel the need to add constant forward and right pressure during forward flight at 80kts, though the student only replies with "I can sorta feel that yeah", so it didn't seem like a very strong force, the instructor then engages the force trim and asks how it feels now.
th-cam.com/video/_Hrm3DRyKg8/w-d-xo.htmlsi=wE81LBhn0VNIhqUg
In another video, obviously something bigger and more modern, an Airbus H125, the pilot is showing how sensitive the cyclic is, and is just tapping the stick in different directions and it stays put and the helicopter is continuing it's roll or pitch change until the pilot taps the stick again. So I wasn't sure if that had more to do with a more sophisticated flight control system.
th-cam.com/video/0cUXsCmi9Uc/w-d-xo.htmlsi=GHIPT5iPR95s3lDO
I appreciate your input, thank you.
@@CommandT So after reading the other replies, may I ask you, with force trim on, when you press the actual "force trim" switch on the stick (not to be confused with your keybind for the force trim on/off switch on the panel) , does that set a new centre position with your setup? And then the trimmer reset, resets it to the middle?
So, I'm not sure how it's done in the Huey, but I do know at least for Take Off and Landing Proceedures for the Robinson R22 and R44 helicopters tell you to *turn off* the trim for those phases of flight.
Huey is pilot preference I think.
That would be a game changer for me 🥰
I really want to try this force feedback system when it becomes available. I currently fly the Bell 429 and I prefer to fly with the force trim completely off so I don't have to constantly trim it or mash the interrupt switch. Not all pilots agree with that but that's how I like to fly at least for maneuvering. I've never flown a Huey in real life but I've always wanted to since it's so iconic. I missed my chance to get 222 time as the operator I work for replaced it with the 429 right before I started.
Jealous you get to fly the 429 anyway!! And the stick is now available for preorder. Have a look at the link in the pinned comment of the description if you’re interested.
Got mine 3 weeks ago. Loving it!
is it special? why is different from other?? thank you
i’m helicopter pilot on DCS … i love the huey, so I WANT IT!!! 🤪
Oh yeah it's a game changer :D
I just scored a Logitech G940 FFB stick off ebay for 50 bucks. Untested. But if it does work? Hellz to the yeah!! And if it doesn't work let's hope it's not too hard to fix. Perhaps just a broken wire or solder joint.
On the waiting list I go !
Awesome! :)
Ur land the huey easy and smooth on the boat, great. I´m happy if i land somewhere in the base. Its a long way to learn for me....
Haha. Practice makes perfect!
vr is great, but it will be along time before you can get it looking as good as flat screen, flat screen looks incredible in this video
Yep, exactly that!
Been said here already but dude reverse your throttle axis for more like a collective. It is much better - back/up to increase, forward/down to decrease.
I used to do that back in my Longbow 2 days. I just never set it up that way in DCS and I think it would confuse me to do it now.
Yeah it's a fair point but I think I'll just buy a collective shortly :)
Beautiful, magic....very good !
Thanks!! :)
For collective I ordered the virpil one, with the apache grip. With the counter balance kit. Looks like a great one.
Yeah my only issue with it is that I can’t mount it under my seat like they’ve designed so will have to figure out a solution for their stupid bracket that is on the right of the stick, might have to cut it off if I order it myself.
@@CommandT Will check how I can mount it myself, I use a custom cockpit with a big seat so if the bracket is not too long, maybe... will check that... and indeed to mount it we only need the holes near the collective. So maybe I'll ask a friend to cut this bracket shorter if it hinders my placement left of my seat.
@@CommandT if I check the picture on virpil website, sure the bracket is a bit long and designed to be put under the seat, but this is because it is designed for seats with a left arm, so in fact the collective is not that close to the seat. So even if do not put the bracket under the seat, maybe the positition will be ok.
@@CommandT If you do get the Virpil collective, do yourself a favor and get the counter-balance kit, too ( especially if you opt for the Apache grip). It's compact, works absolutely perfect, and is buttery smooth. Also, your video probably just cost me a grand.
Very nice scenery. Where is it exactly? We should have the miz file to go there?
The miz files are available to patron supporters. The location is Marianas Islands 👌
Thank you - great demo!
Thanks!
Out of context quotes: "I like it both ways" - CommandT
I like it both ways title of your sextape :D
Eightballs stuff is just the best!
100% agree :)
can I buy this Hotas as a 15 year old with no job?
Ha! I would be having the same dilemma if I was 15 and this thing existed back then :)
FFBeast : 15Nm / motor, yeap, that"s a beast ! Did you try to apply the max torque on the stick just to see how you can handle it (muscular force applied) ? Just to know how one could feel 15Nm ... Thanks for your reply.
No because it’s ridiculous. With my 5cm extension it’s a crazy amount of force. I mean it’s “unflyable” haha. I guess the idea is that if you have a long extension then you can still get the realistic forces
Tkx.
This is amazing!! So cool
Nice flying!!
Thanks! :)
How does your dcs look that beautiful???
Lighting, weather, high graphics settings and a bit of Reshade
Me want, I have a microhelis Huey collective and it's great, the Virpil on a look really good though
Just googled that Huey collective - looks really cool! I'll bookmark it!
I was expecting Kong to appear at any moment
If only we had a mod for that!!
@CommandT: Heard your comments about VR. You can get very nice clear image quality in VR today, but the cost of all the HW/gear including controllers/HOTAS is very high. At this level you need to make it into a serious hobby. BTW, I am only using the PC for DCS World. No other games. But again, if you are willing to spend USD1000k++ for a FFB stick base, I am sure you can afford a decent PC and VR headset? ☺
I have Crystals and image in DCS with quad view in full resolution is amazing. Future is now, and top headsets have super clear image almost like monitors.
So my main gripe is that this image clarity in VR comes at a high price in terms of DCS graphics settings. In VR you need (or at least I) need a perfectly smooth, non-jittery experience no matter where I fly - low over the forest or the middle of Beirut at 550kts. I know we have 8k headsets now but the hardware (not my PC, I mean in general) and VR optimization from ED's side is the limitation for me. Other's accept that to be in 3D they have to reduce the scenery graphics, shadows ect - I just can't stand that. If anything I want more details and more scenery complexity in VR because everything becomes huge and wrapped around your real head... but in the current VR world it's the opposite, you have to sacrifice scenery details (and the perceived resolution) just to be in 3D. There's no way you can run all game graphics settings on high/ maximum like I do in 2D whilst being in a VR headset. And I still don't believe the image quality in VR comes close to my big monitor, sorry. I mean not in practice whilst flying in DCS. I used a Reverb G2 before and I think there would need to be a x 6-8 times improvement in image clarity, brightness, quality and ability to jack the graphics/ scenery settings to the same as what I have in 2D for me to consider getting back into VR. I understand that I am a very demanding customer. If I was using DCS mainly for dogfighting I would use VR no issue all day, but my use case requires the best looking image that runs with zero jitters or fps loss.
@@CommandT It is possible today. I dont have the most possible powerfull PC. An i am playing in DCS, almost exerything on max settings, so the graphic is as great as in 2D, resolution 4200x5300, and 60FPS with reprojection to 120FPS.
The key is eyetracking and fovated rendering with quad view.
@@DraveS21 Hmmmm. I am still not convinced, sorry! What VR headset are you using? The Pimax? Heard some things about it having varying degrees of quality
@@CommandTPimax Crystal, but similar experience is possible with Varjo Aero 2. And probably with Somium in future.
I don't need to convince you ;). Just giving you information, that something what was impossible in near past, right now is possible. Its not cheap of course, because you steel need ~1,5k headset and powerful PC with at least RXT4080. But its possible to have incredible view, edge, to edge clarity, great FOV and good fps. (Saying again - the key is eye tracking with quad view which only DCS has now. Its boosting your FPS like two times)
And for helicopter flying VR is amazing, because is much easier to evaluate the distance and relativity of movement.
And of course this amazing feeling of being inside. But i understand its not for everyone. And some people still are not convinced.
Take my money. Really looking for a decent ffb flightstick for a while now. Unfortunately ffb is not really a ‘thing’ in flight sims.
It is now!! :)
Are you sure in a real helicopter when force trim is off the stick remains where you put it? Or maybe it depends on the helicopter? I talked to a real helicopter pilot and he told me in the helicopter he was flying if he releases the stick it falls over around the place.
I think it might depend on the helicopter. A Huey pilot told me my set up is correct. 🤷♂️
Meanwhile here's me trying to do fine movements with my ol' warthog that sticks everytime I try move it haha
Yeah it was definitely more tough with my old WH stick
Fix it sticking then you won't have the problem easy enough to do plenty of vids on YT with the fix.
There is a special type of grease you can get that will fix this. I have some that I used in my hotas and it made a huge difference.
I use the winwing black shark collective, which is good but I think the Virpil collective setup might be better, as with the sort of throttle base conversion of the winwing you can run into some "stiction" issues.
The solution I found with my WinWing Collective is add a counter balance with a small piece of pvc pipe and a heavy bolt end. This way I can have the friction just enough so there is no stickiness but because of the counterweight it will stay wherever it is when I take my hand off it. Work a treat 👍
What do you mean by “stiction”?
@@CommandT the collective uses friction to stay in place when you release it, but the grip itself is quite heavy. So you either have the friction set lower and the grip can sag a bit when you let go, or higher and the force required to overcome the friction might cause some over input. There is always the possibility you find that perfect balance, but I haven’t found it yet after a year of tinkering with it.
@@Volcrum Ohhh, I see! Damn, that's not ideal! I'll have a think about it.
I just got the Virpil collective & throttle. Wonderful unit. It makes a big difference, but I still struggle with the Huey.
It's probably not Mariana's map, I didn't find this venue.
It is Marianas. One of the northerly islands
I need to get a FF stick for DCS
Yep, transformational :)
youre helo skills are on point, you should give classes lol. do you have a video on how to get your vr to not have the shakes when recording?
Ha, thanks! I don't use VR atm :)
@@CommandT gotcha, thanks brother. And love your videos. 👍👍👍
@@rasse30 Thanks! Glad to hear :)
What joystick is it you have? Brunner?
Have a look at the pinned comment or top part of the description 👍
great video! what map or mod is this?
It's Marianas Islands. The lighthouse and boat is a mod, have a look at the pinned comment :)
oh i see now. i should pay for access.. thanks anyway, mods looks awesome@@CommandT
Do you have comparition to VPForce Rhino stick?
I'm afraid I don't. However the Rhino by comparison looks nowhere near as solid or as beefy. Maybe it's very good, I don't know. But certainly would be strange if it could offer the same amount of force feedback... although I must admit that with a small extension that I use I am nowhere near the maximum force that FFBeast can create, so with a smaller stick extension there's definitely an argument for not needing a huge amount of force feedback. Sorry I can't give any more input on this :(
You would find it a lot better if you invert your throttle quad 🙂
I already have a collective if you check out my latest Huey video 😁
I'm definitely curious what a self-build would look like for this thing. It seems like a pretty interesting thing to be able to build, and would be incredible for the Apache, especially with something for the rudder pedals like the Virpil dampener.
Indeed!
FFBBeast !
Which is funny because I’m a helicopter pilot and there is no force feedback in any of the cyclics I’ve used
Sure, but as I’ve explained in the video, the beauty of a force feedback stick is that you can set it up to replicate a helicopter cyclic… something you can’t do with a spring-loaded centre stick. So despite not using the actual “force feedback” feature of the stick it’s still the way to go for flying helicopters.
I think Force Feedback is just the gaming worlds term for Force Trim.
Check out Heli Mech on TH-cam. He is an aircraft mechanic who is building a 737 cockpit, but has designed a collective that he sells the plans for. I just need a bigger printer.
I’ll have a look, cheers!
Virpil collective is good.
Yeah I’m thinking about it 👍
A shame the Little Bird you mentioned is a mod and not from one of the big devs. More likely to find it's way onto a cold war server if it's not a mod.
So long as it feels and flies realistically, that’s all that counts! 🤞
Can you use virpil sticks ?
Yep, if you have a look on the website it states that it is compatible with Virpil: ffbeast.github.io/docs/en/joystick.html
@@CommandT can you change to vkb stick on the fly?
@@FGCH03 It is possible to have two extenders. One for VKB, One for Virpil. Each of extenders have wire connected to its controller. And you can switch extender with grip. Virpil and VKB have different connectors and different(and proprietary) protocol of communication. So it is impossible to have one single controller which have full support of all sticks. It is possible to 'hack' protocols and have 'partial' support, but full functionality is possible only with original controllers. Blackbox in case of VKB and Virpil controller - in case of using Virpil grips.
WinWing for collective
What is the mod called?
Have a look at the pinned comment :)
It would help alot if you make a flight model that way that center stick position with a regular spring stick also freezes your stick ingame and any movement you do goes from that freezed position. You wouldn't need a FF stick then. Also you would not have to stress your hand. I mean honestly, am I the only one who came to that conclusion?
I don’t understand what you mean
What map is this?
Marianas islands map
No way he paid 900 Euros for the Joystick. Dude...
Trim reset is a cheat. There is no such feature in the Huey :)
Yes that’s right! It is a cheat! 😅
DCS Looks great but impossible just to use a keyboard and mouse But you can fly choppers in GTA 5 , nice flying man make it all the better with a joystick tho.
Indeed! Thanks!
It's more realistic ground and water, than msfs 2020 ground, water, all mesh in ground looks suck in msfs 2020 , that's sad
989 usd for a cyclic, you are high if I'd buy anything force feedback for anything
I would say the price to realism/ feel/ enjoyment ratio is actually incredibly good value. But if you're happy using whatever you have then of course there's no need to switch :)
You must be out of your mind. I can tell you got that stick for free because 900 eruos or about $960US, is out of most people's price range. This is coming from one that worked on helicopters in real life for 20+ years, and fly helicopters almost exclusively in DCS and MSFS. This is roughly half of the new computer I am building so, no, this is a hard pass. You can get a used MS Sidewinder FFB stick way cheaper and works just as well. What a joke.
I’m sorry, but you come across as being fairly ignorant. You’re comparing an MS Sidewinder with this stick? It’s a bit like comparing a remote control Spitfire and an actual Spitfire.
I obviously get that 900 euros is a lot of money for most people. And I’m not trying to tell anyone to sell their kidney for one of these. However, if you can afford it, then the experience between this and an MS Sodewinder is worth far more than 900 euros. But this is just my humble opinion. You are welcome to disagree of course.
@@CommandT Wow, ignorant am I? That is the only part of this I disagree with. haha I only said it works just as well as I have Sidewinder FFB stick and have owned one since they came out decades ago, so not only am I not ignorant on the subject, as one that has flown helicopters RL, and the Huey specifically in the Army, I know what difference a good stick can make. That said, I don't even use my Sidewinder because I find my X56 Rhino is better for flying helicopters as I can reduce the spring pressure to make it very light(using the lightest included spring and a zip tie to further compress it), so no, 900 euros is outrageous.
Why do the graphics looks so bad?
How much?
Just have a look at the pinned comment and have a look at the link for pricing options from FFBeast :)