I have the 444 MARLIN it has surpassed my expectations of a great brush gun I have taken many deer and many wild hog with it and honestly not one time did I have to track the animals after I shot them they always dropped within 5 yards of where I initially shot them love my 444 MARLIN thank you for the great video SEMPER-FI
I have the new marlin 1895 trapper 16 in barrel using 325gr. FTX max load recommended in the lee reloading manual for modern leaver actions not ruger no.1 data with a good charge of H4198 getting 2100 fps I would love to see velocity with a 27 inch barrel
I have the 444. Marlin, every deer I’ve shot fell where they stood, longest shot was stepped off at 175 yards. Hand loads with 265 grain pills shoots inch groups at 100 yards.
.45-70 has a lot more to offer than what you tested. The 405gr load is for Trapdoor rifles from the 1800s. Modern rifles can take a lot more than that.
4570shooter - totally agree that 45/70 left a lot on the table based on ammo selection. Any of the high pressure (modern rifle) loads would out perform the others. If you reload, the 45/70 can perform almost to the level of an elephant cartridge. The 450B factory left some on the table as well as it’s factory pressure is limited to not push the Hornaday FTX bullets beyond there limits. The 450B’s parent case is rated to 60K psi but the 450 is limited to under 40K to not overdrive the projectile according to Tim LeGendre (designer of the cartridge). I load the 450 but don’t own a 45/70 yet. It’s next on my list.
@@shooter-vx7xy TRUE ! "even the Basic HORNADY Loads make a world of difference.." HORNADY has truly up the scale in performance, even with the 30-30 Win round with the MonoFlex Tip. What Sierra did in the early 70's with the Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail design Hornady has covered just about every round even for lever action rifles. The Hornady "225 gr FTX" for my 44 Mag has brought both my Ruger 6 shooter and Win 94 to an all new level. FTX for the 44, "You have to trim the cases" , time consuming yeah but what an awesome round it is with Spitzer improvements, speed, range and grouping. I'm not knocking Barnes, Sierra or Nosler, they played there role to and played it well over time👌. If it wasn't for them, well you know..👍 (good point you made)
The hardest hitting load in 45-70 is the 405 grain solid at 2,000 ft.per second and just shy of 3,600 ft.lbs.of energy.This is currently made by Buffolo-Bore.
In my opinion, .444 is the best for deer hunting. Can be loaded for lower recoil and still be a devastating round to game out to 200 yards. My .444 loads with h322 and 270g bullets compared to my 450 bushmaster use night and day.
.45/70 is an obvious favorite for a lot of us because we grew up with them being prominent in our fathers/grandfathers levers. That being said, I picked up a .450BM and it’s absolutely no slouch.
I really appreciate the information you've presented here. Its really useful data. Having said that, I couldn't disagree more with your recommended barrel lengths. In every case, you could go with a barrel length of 16" or 18" (depending on which cartridge you're talking about) and only loose 50 to 100 fps but end up with a rifle that packs/carries and handles MUCH better in the field. 100 fps isn't going to make a significant difference in trajectory for any of these cartridges, and it sure as heck isn't going to change the terminal performance. I mean seriously, who in the world made the recommendation of using a 24" barrel for a straight walled PISTOL cartridge for crying out loud.... MGM is probably the premier custom barrel maker for TC Contenders, Encores and probably most of the more recent single shot rifles to hit the market in recent years. When you make a recommendation, people are going to put a lot of faith in it. You need to do better.
@Bruce Whitcavitch if your looking at the old 405 gr. Factory stuff or run of the mill 300 odd gr. Whitetail loads from Remington, Winchester, etc., sure. However, 45-70 is a rifle bullet with much better sectional density because of the heavier available bullet weights. Just look at some of Buffalo Bore's heavy loads for modern rifles. Those are factory loads approaching ,458 Win Mag territory.
@@niteshift92 lol you made a comment saying factory ammo then point out +p hand loads that run 142$ shipped for 20 rounds 90+tax+shipping+hazmat fee. Off the shelf well bushmaster wins. Also you can get 200 round hornady new ammo delivered for 180$. It’s hard to beat as a just a deer hammer. If you want to compare lever guns get a 50-110 it destroys the 45-70 in every metric. Since then your comparing lever guns to lever guns. Unless someone makes sub 800$ 45-70 ar or bolt action platforms?
Also I have all 3 and load all 3. Would take the 450 all day hand loads in my ar do 3100 lbs muzzle energy with a 325g bullet. And that is brutal in the lighter weight of the platform. 45-70 is fun but the platform is just not as adjustable to the shooter like bolt guns and ar platforms so I don’t use it much as my accuracy is not great with it. And the 50-110 just brutal it’s more a novelty I keep around and let a few off with friends at the range because well it’s brutal but fun
@@mddunlap03 AR's or bolt actions? You only need one shot with any one of the cartridges being discussed if you are doing your job out in the field. For ANY North American herd animal, a single shot rifle [including the inexpensive Handi-rifles, H&R Buffalo, CVA, or Thompson Center Arms (all of which will handle +P loads)] is more than adequate for the task if you take care of your end. For dangerous North American game a repeater is necessary of course, but most states restrict you to 5 rounds, so the AR, while novel in concept for the application, is overkill. The big bore lever guns have a much faster follow-up than any bolt action, were designed around the cartridges they shoot, and have a 140 year track record. Don't get me wrong, I love the AR's that I own. They are a blast to shoot, and are reliable when used for what they were designed for. When you try to make them do things they weren't designed for, just like anything else, problems can arise. I wouldn't want to rely on a big bore AR in a dangerous game situation. My opinion is my opinion, yours is your own, and I'm not knocking your opinion, just stating mine.
@@mddunlap03 Oh, and another note, the only time I would consider a +P load necessary in North America is on a dangerous game hunt. I've rolled over a 230 lb Whitetail with Remington Green/Yellow box 405 grain Trapdoor safe load.
Given that the chosen platform, and among MGM's specialties, is the T/C Encore, I'm very surprised you didn't mention the lack of a rim on the 450BM. In addition to possible extraction issues, not having a rim or a belt on a case for single-shot rifles can be inconvenient, especially during very cold hunting conditions where gloved hands appreciate having that rim to hold onto. My biggest concern with the 450BM is that it lacks a rim, belt or shoulder for positive headspace, which means it must headspace on the mouth. As long as the chamber is cut correctly (I'm sure MGM chambers are!) and the case length is correct, this is not a problem. However, as a lifelong reloader, I have serious misgivings about having to worry about the case length, as well as having the case mouth on any reloaded round be square to the body of the case. There is a reason the vast majority of successful Contender and Encore cartridges have a rimmed case head design, even if they headspace on a shoulder. All other things being equal, the 450BM is the least desirable of the 4 cases shown, in a single-shot action. YMMV
Great video, hand loading the 45/70 steps it up to 458 data .The cool thing about the 460 you can shoot 454 and 45 colt. And a lot of reload data. The 450 is awesome wish they would stop coming up with new rounds. Not only a barrel I’ll have to come up with dies and no data.
@@charlesmckinley29 I have several 45-70s and one bolt action 450 Bushmaster and while its a great round it will never topple the 45 govt.off of its well deserved throne as king no matter how hard they try and talk the BM into that position.
Interesting video and comparison... It may have been a tad more revealing of the 45-70 if the 300 grain and 325 grain bullets were used in this comparison as most hunters usually use the the Marlin lever and those bullets are the ones that are most commonly available where ammo is sold.
Looking for a deer rifle to shoot less than 100 yards, was already leaning towards the 450 bush master and the shorter barrel velocity numbers sealed the deal, thanks.
Superb video I just purchased a 22" long bolt rifle in 450BM and are very excited to see what it can do with my handloads. Hoping to get over 2300fps/mv with 245 grain projectiles. Should be a deer hammer.
I own all these cartridges except .460. Barnes bullets are a game changer especially the lighter offerings. Dramatic terminal performance and little recoil.
All these are rifle rounds except the 460 which is a handgun round and yet it is comparable to all of these rifle loads it's impressive and in think the 460 is the overall best because of versatility, the 460 is based off the 45 Colt it you can safely shoot 4 calibers from a 460 magnum chambered firearm 45 Schofield,45 Colt,454 casull, and of course 460S&W I have a TC Encore with the 20 inch 460 barrel and it's a beast of a cartridge I plan on getting a chronograph to test the speed boost from the 20 inch barrel I expect around 10% extra from what the box says, if the rifles were more popular I could see a mainstream ammo company making a rifle load that would be awesome
Great video. An overlay graph of all 4 cartridges with equal bullet weights would have been nice to see. I can get that from the video, but I have to go back and forth and write down the data.
William Jenssen .WOW, that is some bone crushing power! I am ready to see some video with home loads and exotic load thresholds, I think people are afraid to open that Pandora's box. Viewer safety is the factor in guessing.
Well it’s two years later and I’m watching this after I already got a ar15 chambered in 450bm. I’m trying to figure out which one of these would be best in a single shot rifle and apparently I already made the most practical choice.
460 S&W is the only caliber and gun that I do not own in this whole group of 4 calibers here. But out of the 444 Marlin, the 450 BM and the 45-70 I like the 444 Marlin the best. Some day hope I get to shoot or buy a 460 S&W rifle.
460SW is not intended to be a rifle caliber. Was developed for revolvers. I have a SW 460v 5", and I love the gun, as I can shoot the 460, 454 Casull and 45 LC all out of the same gun.
I have A Thompson Center Encore with the 460mag barrel that's 20 inches long, it's a beast it's hard to believe the round is designed for handguns, a cool thing is that it's compatible with multiple calibers you can safely shoot 45 Schofield,45 colt, 454 casull and of course 460S&W threw a gun Chambered for 460 which is nice
@@tyronekim3506 The difference is that the .300WM will carry that energy for long distances, whereas these calibers are heavy hitters up close but bleed off quickly due to their profile.
@@Borderline5440 According to Hornady reloading handbook a 200 gainer from a 460 S&W has max velocity of 2250fps. That gives 2246 foot pounds of energy which is impressive for a handgun but is far from 3916 foot pounds of energy from 300 Win Mag. There could be a problem with the chronograph. Be safe and in good health.
How about the .45 Raptor ? It’s basically a .460 S&W rimless , and can actually be used in .460 revolver with moon clips if you wanted . But it way out performs the 450 BM .
I doubt a deer, bear or moose would know the difference! I have a 450bm, 45/70 and 444. They are all killers! I have taken hundreds of hogs 100lb-450lbs over the years. The 450BM AR is my favorite now. I don't set around reading ballistic tables, and all the marketing articles. I get in the woods and see for myself how they perform. I like the 450BM. JMHO
What round are you shooting and the grain weight of bullet to get those ballistics??? I hand load lehigh defense 220 grain penetrators with H110, n Lil gun. N I'm close to fps, but I'm very meticulous. If ur getting that from a factory load, n by ur energy numbers it has to be at least a 240 grain bullet. I'll stop reloading n buy those all day long????
Yup I love my 444 Marlin...best brush gun ever...I remember my buds shooting groundhogs at his cattle farm, they dig holes that can do a number on cattles legs. They were using a 270 for groundhogs. I pulled out my Marlin...they said WTF is that...My 444...I saw 2 groundhogs poking out of a hill at 60 yards....i aimed in between them and fired ( i dont kill what I dont eat). Well...the whole hill disappeared and splashed em with rocks and sand. lol Yup its a cannon....If you plan to scope it like I did...take haste...first time I shot, I got a black eye...it kicks.
Really liked this video it was very informative and educational. I am trying to get started in long range and 3gun shoots at 59yrs old lol so im guessing ill have to start in the seniors shoots? although i wanted to start this many years ago ,i have 4kids and now three grandbabies so im getting a late start :>/ hehe any suggestion on a good trap door caliber as well as one for an AR in the 3gun? thanks
I was glad to see this pop up in my feed. I've often pondered a companion rifle to go with my Ruger SRH 454 Casull compared to packing a 1895 in 45-70, with 2 different caliber bullets. Do you have data/information related to the 454 from a (20") rifle barrel?
Can u compare a 454 casull to those in a rifle length barrel? I'm very curious to see how that high pressure hot round does in a longer barrel. You would think it would keep climbing kinda like the 45/70? As far as I know puma "was" the only 1 that ever offered it, but they stopped making it soon after? To hot? Eating up the gun?? Thanks great content, much appreciated it
I'm considering a 45-70 barrel for my Pro hunter XT, and maybe a 308 Win barrel as well. I have both of those in lever action and bolt action rifles. Target practice and range days are fun, but I need to get back into hunting.
Out of curiosity, what kind of performance would I get out of a 45-70 using the 305 grain +p extreme penetrators from Underwood Ammo? They recommend 1/24 twist rates and the closest you provide is 1/20. I’m wanting to build a tc pro hunter rifle and pistol barrel option for my firearm using the 45/70 gov and specifically those extreme penetrators. rifle barrel 20-24” and pistol at 9”. The backup pistol option would be the 454 Casull but the 45/70 has more available options on Ammo for cheaper if they have similar performance out of a pistol barrel
@@peterb8904 It's too long. It won't fit in the allowed length of the AR-15 magazine or mag well. It would fit an AR-10, but even then it's a rimmed case and would feed from a mag like complete garbage.
Well i have a Marlin 1895 Rifle chambered in the 45/70 and i was surprised to see it was the slowest round out of all of these? I didnt expect it to be in the t op two but still. What would you suggest out of the 444Marlin and 450BM? im trying to decide what caliber to buy a single shot rifle in for target shooting? I really like the throw back shoots with trap door and other older rifles best. but they didnt have those other calibers back then! LOL
High velocity (and correspondingly high energy) isn't always the best choice in effectiveness. I think you've implied that by stating the lack of "rifle type" bullets available for some of these, saying they didn't do well with handgun bullets. I've read articles which stated the penetration ability of heavy .45-70 hard-cast bullets was reduced when the velocity was increased, so the loads were backed down somewhat and the performance on a big heavy animal was also greatly increased. It's counter-intuitive but it's true. Sometimes higher velocities destroy the ability of cast lead projectiles (and jacketed projectiles for that matter) to hold together, to retain their profile reliably which also leads to less satisfactory results. Speed isn't everything on these big-bore straight-wall cartridges. Based on availability, I'd take the .45-70 first, and the .450 Bushmaster second. Don't think I'd find any need for the 444 due to how venerable and flexible the .45-70 is. The .450 Bushmaster would be an appealing cartridge in many ways because of the rifle platforms that chamber it, such as Ruger's #1, Scout, and American, besides the obvious AR-15 compatibility.
thats true but its because the bullets dont disrupt as much at slower velocities. ive seen similar studies from people trying to push the .45-70 for african DG and at the end of the day it just wont do what the .458 win mag or lott will do no matter how you load them.
The only firearms training i have is threw the service and it wasnt much as i was in the Navy lol So when it came to firearms we just had to qualify with a 22LR caliber AR and 1911 when i was in. It was an M4 carbine of the 80s lol We only had minimal training when it came to shooting it self, but had plenty of firarms safety training. With my swim test the seals wanted me but i quickly said no thank you sir i am not crazy enough for that! LOL i was scared enough going in at ,Just days after my 18th birthday ,going into the regula Navy! LOL In any case i loved that part of the training the most as i have always loved firearms! but never got the chance to learn much about that. Taking this or that handgun or rifle apart to clean ,yes, but not much else. I have since educated my self on building ARs and other bolt guns. But im very far from any kind of expert! Right now im playing a sponge so i can learn all i can to make this hobby even more fun and so i can better defend my self ,or family if i ever have too!?! So i subbed your channel as i think it will teach me a lot! Thanks
The .30 06 began in 1903 and was then able for it all. Whelen necked it up to .35 for big game at a good yardage. The .444 is basically a .44 whelen or .44 caliber ot six. If you have a steel barreled .44 40 with steel toggles you can spit the 265 grain hornady out at over 1600 fps with IMR 4227 24 and a half grains and kill that bear at 150 yards. I also like the .30 378 weatherby for flat shooting but what are you trying to do that isn't bettered by the .50 bmg? Oh so many calibers and loads but in the end it's all just chasing after the wind.
I believe the official diameter for 450 BM and 460 S&W is .452. .451 is a 45 ACP bullet. Not that it should matter much but I doubt you'd find bullets that can hold up to those velocities in .451. Thanks for the video.
If you pull up SAAMI's spec sheet on the 450 bush, it lists the dia as .450" (+.002), so .451 would this be dead center of the tolerances. The bullet dia spec (same saami sheet) requires .4525“ (-.003). So that bullet is going to either expand to fill the gap or be squished a bit to fit. It's desirable that the bullet deform a bit to fit, as it will give you a good gas seal and better performance!
I love my Henry 45-70, hunted everything from Deer to Grizzly. Just a thought, maybe you should have included the price of each rifle and the cost of ammo, that does figure into a person's decision on what they are buying.
A hard cast 500gr. bullet from a 45-70 will shoot ent to end on most North American game. By the way what would a .45-70 do with a 250 gr. bullet with a good charge of fast to medium burning powder?
454 Casull is the top cartridge not included in the lineup. 16" 454 Casull rifle barrel will handle anything thing that walks. Additionally, I'm not talking about shooting the 454 Casull in a 460 S&W Magnum barrel.
Your favorite cartridge is the 450 BM.A cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth? if you handload you could easily download the 460 to the 450 ballistics,so the pick makes no sense unless your a non handloader who is determined to use the 250gr FTC or you use an AR platform.
Irony! My only complaint about the BM450 is that it is limited by the design limits of the AR-15 (bolt thrust) and is not loaded to its full potential. One big advantage for the BM450 is that it is AR-15 compatible. It is also awesome to hand load pistol bullets because they make cheap plinking loads. They make nice round .45 caliber holes in paper at 100 yards the same as the 250 grain FTX bullets. I have seen BM450 ammo for sale for use only in bolt action or break action rifles. They advertise that they can push a 285 grain bullet to 2,250 fps! If only there was a company that offered an AR style rifle that accepted AR-15 magazines but used an AR-10 BCG. The full potential of this cartridge could be used if the bolt's lugs were stronger! *cough CMMG*
@@quarterpounderwithcheese3178 go ahead, but you won't be deer hunting in Ohio with 308 win. Different uses, different applications, 450BM is fun to shoot in a ar15 platform also.
I got 50 call muzzloader..takes 451 barnes 250 bullet then got 460 pistol.. then I got the katahdin barrel...I dont have access to Chronograph...is 200 gr the best then heavier rounds....can you see what 454 casull info. With 460 barrel see if there is more energy and how big the drop is And other 460 ammo info thanks Great job
I have Katahdin barrels in both 45-70 and the 460 S&W. I really love these rifles but that 460 is a bruiser. I have a Smith & Wesson XVR in 460 and it is a powder puff to shoot compared to the Thompson. I was wondering if porting the Katahdin barrel is a good idea.
I also have a S&W 460 revolver and an Encore 460 pistol. The encore is punishing to shoot. Even with a muzzle brake. The folks at S&W put some special magic into there revolvers to have them behave so well with this cartridge. Maybe that gain rifleing has a real purpose. I have resigned my 460 encore to subsonic Trailboss loads suppressed exclusively. I believe MGM was correct in stating that 460 was the hardest on equipment. Chambering it in anything other than the x frame revolver seems a little silly but most of us have to learn the hard way.
I just can’t understand why no one will give a real review on 4570, I get it it’s an ancient round but I love it and a lot of other Americans do sure wish someone would do it right
Not always possible or realistic. I’m not an expert on rifle calibers, but I’ll use pistols as an example. Both 9mm and .357 magnum use the same diameter bullet, but .357 usually utilizes heavier projectiles than 9mm. 9mm usually comes in a 115 to 124 grain projectile where it’s hard to find .357 with anything less than 130 grains. You can find some rounds that match for a “fair” comparison, but I would argue that it’s not necessarily a realistic one.
Thanks for the video. I learned something new today. I hope your velocity data are correct because I'm in disbelief that the 460SW, a smaller cartridge than the 444 Marlin and the 45-70 Gov't, has more energy than the 444 Marlin and 45-70 Gov't.
It would have been more apples to apples if the same bullet weight was used, then velocity can be used to determine energy, then you can debate that difference in the cartridges.
Thanks for NOT having Ads!!!
I have the 444 MARLIN it has surpassed my expectations of a great brush gun I have taken many deer and many wild hog with it and honestly not one time did I have to track the animals after I shot them they always dropped within 5 yards of where I initially shot them love my 444 MARLIN thank you for the great video SEMPER-FI
what distance are your hits? im 4 for 4 at 200y with my 450bm
I have the new marlin 1895 trapper 16 in barrel using 325gr. FTX max load recommended in the lee reloading manual for modern leaver actions not ruger no.1 data with a good charge of H4198 getting 2100 fps I would love to see velocity with a 27 inch barrel
I have the 444. Marlin, every deer I’ve shot fell where they stood, longest shot was stepped off at 175 yards. Hand loads with 265 grain pills shoots inch groups at 100 yards.
Thanks for taking the time and effort to collect that data and share, good stuff.
Very nice! Thanks for the hours of work that had to go into this video.
.45-70 has a lot more to offer than what you tested. The 405gr load is for Trapdoor rifles from the 1800s. Modern rifles can take a lot more than that.
@MegaStick93 Yeah. Even basic Hornady loads are worlds better than the 405gr/1300fps stuff they tested here.
4570shooter - totally agree that 45/70 left a lot on the table based on ammo selection. Any of the high pressure (modern rifle) loads would out perform the others. If you reload, the 45/70 can perform almost to the level of an elephant cartridge. The 450B factory left some on the table as well as it’s factory pressure is limited to not push the Hornaday FTX bullets beyond there limits. The 450B’s parent case is rated to 60K psi but the 450 is limited to under 40K to not overdrive the projectile according to Tim LeGendre (designer of the cartridge). I load the 450 but don’t own a 45/70 yet. It’s next on my list.
@@shooter-vx7xy the video says they tested the 325gr factory loads. I'm not sure what you're saying?
@@-GOVT the video says they tested the 325gr factory loads. I'm not sure what you're saying?
@@shooter-vx7xy TRUE ! "even the Basic HORNADY Loads make a world of difference.." HORNADY has truly up the scale in performance, even with the 30-30 Win round with the MonoFlex Tip. What Sierra did in the early 70's with the Sierra Spitzer Boat Tail design Hornady has covered just about every round even for lever action rifles. The Hornady "225 gr FTX" for my 44 Mag has brought both my Ruger 6 shooter and Win 94 to an all new level. FTX for the 44, "You have to trim the cases" , time consuming yeah but what an awesome round it is with Spitzer improvements, speed, range and grouping. I'm not knocking Barnes, Sierra or Nosler, they played there role to and played it well over time👌. If it wasn't for them, well you know..👍 (good point you made)
Great information. The Bushmaster surprised me in this comparison. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
Glad we could help!
The hardest hitting load in 45-70 is the 405 grain solid at 2,000 ft.per second and just shy of 3,600 ft.lbs.of energy.This is currently made by Buffolo-Bore.
I would like to introduce you to Underwood Lehigh factory 225 Xtreme Hunter +p. Loaded to over 2700fps and 3700ftlbs of energy.
50-110 WCF around 6,000 ft-lb. :)
@@exothermal.sprocket What’s that used for, Terodactyl’s.
@@philipgates8693 Back in the late 1800's, Pterodactyls resembled Bison.
45-70 will drop anything that walks this planet.
In my opinion, .444 is the best for deer hunting. Can be loaded for lower recoil and still be a devastating round to game out to 200 yards. My .444 loads with h322 and 270g bullets compared to my 450 bushmaster use night and day.
Great video and solid information documented. Thank you.
Great video. Hope you do one comparing the 454 casull ,45LC, 44mag and 41mag.
And 445 supermag-
.45/70 is an obvious favorite for a lot of us because we grew up with them being prominent in our fathers/grandfathers levers. That being said, I picked up a .450BM and it’s absolutely no slouch.
I love my 444 with 270 grain Corbon it drops deer wonderful..
Great video. Thanks for the info
I like the 444 marlin.
Great info, just picked up a .450 BM in 18" barrel. I should have watched this before that, but it looks like I made the right choice.
I really appreciate the information you've presented here. Its really useful data. Having said that, I couldn't disagree more with your recommended barrel lengths. In every case, you could go with a barrel length of 16" or 18" (depending on which cartridge you're talking about) and only loose 50 to 100 fps but end up with a rifle that packs/carries and handles MUCH better in the field. 100 fps isn't going to make a significant difference in trajectory for any of these cartridges, and it sure as heck isn't going to change the terminal performance. I mean seriously, who in the world made the recommendation of using a 24" barrel for a straight walled PISTOL cartridge for crying out loud....
MGM is probably the premier custom barrel maker for TC Contenders, Encores and probably most of the more recent single shot rifles to hit the market in recent years. When you make a recommendation, people are going to put a lot of faith in it. You need to do better.
With reloading or with factory ammo, the 45-70 Govt. Is by far the most versatile and the heaviest hitting.
@Bruce Whitcavitch if your looking at the old 405 gr. Factory stuff or run of the mill 300 odd gr. Whitetail loads from Remington, Winchester, etc., sure. However, 45-70 is a rifle bullet with much better sectional density because of the heavier available bullet weights. Just look at some of Buffalo Bore's heavy loads for modern rifles. Those are factory loads approaching ,458 Win Mag territory.
@@niteshift92 lol you made a comment saying factory ammo then point out +p hand loads that run 142$ shipped for 20 rounds 90+tax+shipping+hazmat fee. Off the shelf well bushmaster wins. Also you can get 200 round hornady new ammo delivered for 180$. It’s hard to beat as a just a deer hammer. If you want to compare lever guns get a 50-110 it destroys the 45-70 in every metric. Since then your comparing lever guns to lever guns. Unless someone makes sub 800$ 45-70 ar or bolt action platforms?
Also I have all 3 and load all 3. Would take the 450 all day hand loads in my ar do 3100 lbs muzzle energy with a 325g bullet. And that is brutal in the lighter weight of the platform. 45-70 is fun but the platform is just not as adjustable to the shooter like bolt guns and ar platforms so I don’t use it much as my accuracy is not great with it. And the 50-110 just brutal it’s more a novelty I keep around and let a few off with friends at the range because well it’s brutal but fun
@@mddunlap03 AR's or bolt actions? You only need one shot with any one of the cartridges being discussed if you are doing your job out in the field. For ANY North American herd animal, a single shot rifle [including the inexpensive Handi-rifles, H&R Buffalo, CVA, or Thompson Center Arms (all of which will handle +P loads)] is more than adequate for the task if you take care of your end. For dangerous North American game a repeater is necessary of course, but most states restrict you to 5 rounds, so the AR, while novel in concept for the application, is overkill. The big bore lever guns have a much faster follow-up than any bolt action, were designed around the cartridges they shoot, and have a 140 year track record. Don't get me wrong, I love the AR's that I own. They are a blast to shoot, and are reliable when used for what they were designed for. When you try to make them do things they weren't designed for, just like anything else, problems can arise. I wouldn't want to rely on a big bore AR in a dangerous game situation. My opinion is my opinion, yours is your own, and I'm not knocking your opinion, just stating mine.
@@mddunlap03 Oh, and another note, the only time I would consider a +P load necessary in North America is on a dangerous game hunt. I've rolled over a 230 lb Whitetail with Remington Green/Yellow box 405 grain Trapdoor safe load.
Now that is how a cartridge comparison should be done. Thank you! Looks like I'll be getting a 23" .45-70 encore barrel from you.
What a tremendous job!
Given that the chosen platform, and among MGM's specialties, is the T/C Encore, I'm very surprised you didn't mention the lack of a rim on the 450BM. In addition to possible extraction issues, not having a rim or a belt on a case for single-shot rifles can be inconvenient, especially during very cold hunting conditions where gloved hands appreciate having that rim to hold onto. My biggest concern with the 450BM is that it lacks a rim, belt or shoulder for positive headspace, which means it must headspace on the mouth. As long as the chamber is cut correctly (I'm sure MGM chambers are!) and the case length is correct, this is not a problem. However, as a lifelong reloader, I have serious misgivings about having to worry about the case length, as well as having the case mouth on any reloaded round be square to the body of the case. There is a reason the vast majority of successful Contender and Encore cartridges have a rimmed case head design, even if they headspace on a shoulder. All other things being equal, the 450BM is the least desirable of the 4 cases shown, in a single-shot action. YMMV
Wow, good info and even fairly unbiased.
Love my 450 BM size of thumb going in the size of a baseball coming out.
That's not always the ideal thing to try and do.
@@MrWhitetailtracker only if you're trying to save meat
Only downside to a 45/70 is the massive drop after 150 yards. Other than that, it’s the best damn cartridge out there
You evèr ßhot onè? Àŕmy mule comes to mind
Great data. Thank you
Great video, hand loading the 45/70 steps it up to 458 data .The cool thing about the 460 you can shoot 454 and 45 colt. And a lot of reload data. The 450 is awesome wish they would stop coming up with new rounds. Not only a barrel I’ll have to come up with dies and no data.
You shot one? Itkìckslike àn àrmy mule........ maybemý gunsmith cousin gave me à boost?
Excellent data!!!
Pretty interesting the two best performing were also the shortest case length and the two newest. Shows how far tech has came.
The 45-70 load was very conservative.
@@charlesmckinley29 I have several 45-70s and one bolt action 450 Bushmaster and while its a great round it will never topple the 45 govt.off of its well deserved throne as king no matter how hard they try and talk the BM into that position.
Interesting video and comparison... It may have been a tad more revealing of the 45-70 if the 300 grain and 325 grain bullets were used in this comparison as most hunters usually use the the Marlin lever and those bullets are the ones that are most commonly available where ammo is sold.
Good information! THX!
Looking for a deer rifle to shoot less than 100 yards, was already leaning towards the 450 bush master and the shorter barrel velocity numbers sealed the deal, thanks.
Superb video
I just purchased a 22" long bolt rifle in 450BM and are very excited to see what it can do with my handloads.
Hoping to get over 2300fps/mv with 245 grain projectiles.
Should be a deer hammer.
Great video as far as custom made could you do a 7 practical? I’m thinking long range with a single shot.
I own all these cartridges except .460. Barnes bullets are a game changer especially the lighter offerings. Dramatic terminal performance and little recoil.
All these are rifle rounds except the 460 which is a handgun round and yet it is comparable to all of these rifle loads it's impressive and in think the 460 is the overall best because of versatility, the 460 is based off the 45 Colt it you can safely shoot 4 calibers from a 460 magnum chambered firearm 45 Schofield,45 Colt,454 casull, and of course 460S&W
I have a TC Encore with the 20 inch 460 barrel and it's a beast of a cartridge I plan on getting a chronograph to test the speed boost from the 20 inch barrel I expect around 10% extra from what the box says, if the rifles were more popular I could see a mainstream ammo company making a rifle load that would be awesome
Great video. An overlay graph of all 4 cartridges with equal bullet weights would have been nice to see. I can get that from the video, but I have to go back and forth and write down the data.
Should have tested the .460 magnum with some Buffalo Bore 360gr hardcast. That cartridge delivers some punch.
If I need to stop a large furry charging creature that has pointed teeth and claws, I want the 45/70 in a rifle.
i read that as "if i have to kill [a furry], 45-70". still a good choice
45-70s are fairly underpowered and can handle much hotter loads which I think makes it a great choice for reloading high performance hunting loads.
@@imperialwhovian3461 you can get upwards of 3700 ft Ibs from a 45-70 with proper loads and a 400gr bullet.
William Jenssen .WOW, that is some bone crushing power! I am ready to see some video with home loads and exotic load thresholds, I think people are afraid to open that Pandora's box. Viewer safety is the factor in guessing.
@@noahaugust9444 I think that the limiting factor is mostly chamber pressure and shoulder pain...
Awesome. Thank you
Needed to have the .450 Marlin
Interesting that you chose the one rimless cartridge. Sounds like a recipe for extraction problems.
Well it’s two years later and I’m watching this after I already got a ar15 chambered in 450bm. I’m trying to figure out which one of these would be best in a single shot rifle and apparently I already made the most practical choice.
The beating the 460 puts on your gear definitely shouldn't be overlooked.
460 S&W is the only caliber and gun that I do not own in this whole group of 4 calibers here. But out of the 444 Marlin, the 450 BM and the 45-70 I like the 444 Marlin the best. Some day hope I get to shoot or buy a 460 S&W rifle.
.458 Socom is an absolute sledge hammer with 300 gr. at 1900 FPS
460SW is not intended to be a rifle caliber. Was developed for revolvers. I have a SW 460v 5", and I love the gun, as I can shoot the 460, 454 Casull and 45 LC all out of the same gun.
I have A Thompson Center Encore with the 460mag barrel that's 20 inches long, it's a beast it's hard to believe the round is designed for handguns, a cool thing is that it's compatible with multiple calibers you can safely shoot 45 Schofield,45 colt, 454 casull and of course 460S&W threw a gun Chambered for 460 which is nice
@@Gaigebacca True, but it's loaded to rifle pressure. Much higher than the other rounds
Would be cool to see how the 454 casull does at different barrel lengths
The 460 s&w 200 grain ftx at 2970fps translates to about 3916lbs of energy. Thats impressive for a pistol caliber.
Right on! It's comparable to 300 Win Mag at the muzzle. I'm in disbelief!
@@tyronekim3506 The difference is that the .300WM will carry that energy for long distances, whereas these calibers are heavy hitters up close but bleed off quickly due to their profile.
@@Borderline5440 According to Hornady reloading handbook a 200 gainer from a 460 S&W has max velocity of 2250fps. That gives 2246 foot pounds of energy which is impressive for a handgun but is far from 3916 foot pounds of energy from 300 Win Mag. There could be a problem with the chronograph.
Be safe and in good health.
@@tyronekim3506 That would make sense. 3000 FPS from a pistol caliber would be just plain nuts.
@@Borderline5440 I agree.
How about the .45 Raptor ? It’s basically a .460 S&W rimless , and can actually be used in .460 revolver with moon clips if you wanted . But it way out performs the 450 BM .
I doubt a deer, bear or moose would know the difference! I have a 450bm, 45/70 and 444. They are all killers! I have taken hundreds of hogs 100lb-450lbs over the years. The 450BM AR is my favorite now. I don't set around reading ballistic tables, and all the marketing articles. I get in the woods and see for myself how they perform. I like the 450BM. JMHO
A 450lb hog now that's a big fish.
Great vid. Just the facts ma'am.
Outstanding
I would love to see a 450 Marlin compared to these fired from a 22 or 24inch barrel.
I love the.45-70 and definitely want a .444 Marlin. I’m in the east and prefer heavier bullets, so don’t really care about energy at longer ranges.
Love the 450BM, I shoot the Bear Creek Ballistics at 2550 fps 3500FPE and higher BC .265 than the rest extends the range 100 yards over 45-70
What round are you shooting and the grain weight of bullet to get those ballistics??? I hand load lehigh defense 220 grain penetrators with H110, n Lil gun. N I'm close to fps, but I'm very meticulous. If ur getting that from a factory load, n by ur energy numbers it has to be at least a 240 grain bullet. I'll stop reloading n buy those all day long????
Yup I love my 444 Marlin...best brush gun ever...I remember my buds shooting groundhogs at his cattle farm, they dig holes that can do a number on cattles legs. They were using a 270 for groundhogs. I pulled out my Marlin...they said WTF is that...My 444...I saw 2 groundhogs poking out of a hill at 60 yards....i aimed in between them and fired ( i dont kill what I dont eat). Well...the whole hill disappeared and splashed em with rocks and sand. lol Yup its a cannon....If you plan to scope it like I did...take haste...first time I shot, I got a black eye...it kicks.
Really liked this video it was very informative and educational. I am trying to get started in long range and 3gun shoots at 59yrs old lol so im guessing ill have to start in the seniors shoots? although i wanted to start this many years ago ,i have 4kids and now three grandbabies so im getting a late start :>/ hehe any suggestion on a good trap door caliber as well as one for an AR in the 3gun? thanks
I was glad to see this pop up in my feed. I've often pondered a companion rifle to go with my Ruger SRH 454 Casull compared to packing a 1895 in 45-70, with 2 different caliber bullets. Do you have data/information related to the 454 from a (20") rifle barrel?
We did not do velocity testing with a 454 Casul, sorry.
Can test by running 454 ammo in 460bbl
Can u compare a 454 casull to those in a rifle length barrel? I'm very curious to see how that high pressure hot round does in a longer barrel. You would think it would keep climbing kinda like the 45/70? As far as I know puma "was" the only 1 that ever offered it, but they stopped making it soon after? To hot? Eating up the gun?? Thanks great content, much appreciated it
I have .444 marlin and love it. Doesn’t really kick, more like a push. My 30-06 kicks.
Bear Creek Ballistics now makes 450 Bushmaster that sends a 240gr solid copper bullet 2600 fps, but it’s not cheap
I'm considering a 45-70 barrel for my Pro hunter XT, and maybe a 308 Win barrel as well. I have both of those in lever action and bolt action rifles.
Target practice and range days are fun, but I need to get back into hunting.
Go all the way and get a 460 S&W barrel for it! I have A pro hunter in 460 and its a flat shooter but it is a little lively in the hand.
Out of curiosity, what kind of performance would I get out of a 45-70 using the 305 grain +p extreme penetrators from Underwood Ammo? They recommend 1/24 twist rates and the closest you provide is 1/20.
I’m wanting to build a tc pro hunter rifle and pistol barrel option for my firearm using the 45/70 gov and specifically those extreme penetrators. rifle barrel 20-24” and pistol at 9”. The backup pistol option would be the 454 Casull but the 45/70 has more available options on Ammo for cheaper if they have similar performance out of a pistol barrel
I love 45-70 but 450BM is my go to, lever guns are fun but I enjoy being able to shoot in AR platform.
You got a clue why they can't move 45-70s onto an AR platform?
@@peterb8904 It's too long. It won't fit in the allowed length of the AR-15 magazine or mag well. It would fit an AR-10, but even then it's a rimmed case and would feed from a mag like complete garbage.
.45 Raptor is the answer.
Well i have a Marlin 1895 Rifle chambered in the 45/70 and i was surprised to see it was the slowest round out of all of these? I didnt expect it to be in the t op two but still. What would you suggest out of the 444Marlin and 450BM? im trying to decide what caliber to buy a single shot rifle in for target shooting? I really like the throw back shoots with trap door and other older rifles best. but they didnt have those other calibers back then! LOL
You could purchase 3 or 4 1895 Marlin 1895 CBA 45-70 leverguns for the price of that glass on top of old Smokey there!!
High velocity (and correspondingly high energy) isn't always the best choice in effectiveness. I think you've implied that by stating the lack of "rifle type" bullets available for some of these, saying they didn't do well with handgun bullets.
I've read articles which stated the penetration ability of heavy .45-70 hard-cast bullets was reduced when the velocity was increased, so the loads were backed down somewhat and the performance on a big heavy animal was also greatly increased. It's counter-intuitive but it's true. Sometimes higher velocities destroy the ability of cast lead projectiles (and jacketed projectiles for that matter) to hold together, to retain their profile reliably which also leads to less satisfactory results. Speed isn't everything on these big-bore straight-wall cartridges.
Based on availability, I'd take the .45-70 first, and the .450 Bushmaster second. Don't think I'd find any need for the 444 due to how venerable and flexible the .45-70 is. The .450 Bushmaster would be an appealing cartridge in many ways because of the rifle platforms that chamber it, such as Ruger's #1, Scout, and American, besides the obvious AR-15 compatibility.
thats true but its because the bullets dont disrupt as much at slower velocities. ive seen similar studies from people trying to push the .45-70 for african DG and at the end of the day it just wont do what the .458 win mag or lott will do no matter how you load them.
@@hotramen5952 Seems to do okay. www.crater4570.com/Hunting_Trophies.html
The only firearms training i have is threw the service and it wasnt much as i was in the Navy lol So when it came to firearms we just had to qualify with a 22LR caliber AR and 1911 when i was in. It was an M4 carbine of the 80s lol We only had minimal training when it came to shooting it self, but had plenty of firarms safety training. With my swim test the seals wanted me but i quickly said no thank you sir i am not crazy enough for that! LOL i was scared enough going in at ,Just days after my 18th birthday ,going into the regula Navy! LOL In any case i loved that part of the training the most as i have always loved firearms! but never got the chance to learn much about that. Taking this or that handgun or rifle apart to clean ,yes, but not much else. I have since educated my self on building ARs and other bolt guns. But im very far from any kind of expert! Right now im playing a sponge so i can learn all i can to make this hobby even more fun and so i can better defend my self ,or family if i ever have too!?! So i subbed your channel as i think it will teach me a lot! Thanks
best barrels Ive ever owned .
The .30 06 began in 1903 and was then able for it all. Whelen necked it up to .35 for big game at a good yardage. The .444 is basically a .44 whelen or .44 caliber ot six. If you have a steel barreled .44 40 with steel toggles you can spit the 265 grain hornady out at over 1600 fps with IMR 4227 24 and a half grains and kill that bear at 150 yards. I also like the .30 378 weatherby for flat shooting but what are you trying to do that isn't bettered by the .50 bmg? Oh so many calibers and loads but in the end it's all just chasing after the wind.
I believe the official diameter for 450 BM and 460 S&W is .452. .451 is a 45 ACP bullet. Not that it should matter much but I doubt you'd find bullets that can hold up to those velocities in .451. Thanks for the video.
If you pull up SAAMI's spec sheet on the 450 bush, it lists the dia as .450" (+.002), so .451 would this be dead center of the tolerances. The bullet dia spec (same saami sheet) requires .4525“ (-.003). So that bullet is going to either expand to fill the gap or be squished a bit to fit. It's desirable that the bullet deform a bit to fit, as it will give you a good gas seal and better performance!
Is that the CVA scout in the beginning of your video? Where did you get that camo stock?
No, it is an Encore stock from Haus of Arms.
Wish you would have included 458 socom!
Why not 26 inch barrel for the 444 Marlin
Why not put the 454 casull up in this class? I've yet to see any ballistics of this round thru a 16" barrel. Would it compete ballisticly
I love my Henry 45-70, hunted everything from Deer to Grizzly. Just a thought, maybe you should have included the price of each rifle and the cost of ammo, that does figure into a person's decision on what they are buying.
It would be nice, but unfortunately, those ammo prices would be accurate for about a day...
You forgot the 450 marlin!!
I have a 45 70 it is really a good round
A hard cast 500gr. bullet from a 45-70 will shoot ent to end on most North American game. By the way what would a .45-70 do with a 250 gr. bullet with a good charge of fast to medium burning powder?
If you were planning on buying a single load rifle and cutting down to 16.25" would the 450 Bushmaster be the obvious choice?
The 444 Marlin does not get the respect it deserves. It punches above it's weight class.
454 Casull is the top cartridge not included in the lineup. 16" 454 Casull rifle barrel will handle anything thing that walks. Additionally, I'm not talking about shooting the 454 Casull in a 460 S&W Magnum barrel.
Your favorite cartridge is the 450 BM.A cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth? if you handload you could easily download the 460 to the 450 ballistics,so the pick makes no sense unless your a non handloader who is determined to use the 250gr FTC or you use an AR platform.
Had no idea the 450 BM was that destructive. 🙀🙀
Oh yeah! They pack one heck of a punch, when the dust settled there were no large pieces left of that rock, just pebbles lol
Irony! My only complaint about the BM450 is that it is limited by the design limits of the AR-15 (bolt thrust) and is not loaded to its full potential. One big advantage for the BM450 is that it is AR-15 compatible. It is also awesome to hand load pistol bullets because they make cheap plinking loads. They make nice round .45 caliber holes in paper at 100 yards the same as the 250 grain FTX bullets.
I have seen BM450 ammo for sale for use only in bolt action or break action rifles. They advertise that they can push a 285 grain bullet to 2,250 fps!
If only there was a company that offered an AR style rifle that accepted AR-15 magazines but used an AR-10 BCG. The full potential of this cartridge could be used if the bolt's lugs were stronger! *cough CMMG*
Love my 450 BM size of thumb going in the size of a baseball coming out.
anything is destructive when you have to be within 100yrds to hit something before the bullet goes subsonic with a 5moa. I'll stick to 308win
@@quarterpounderwithcheese3178 go ahead, but you won't be deer hunting in Ohio with 308 win. Different uses, different applications, 450BM is fun to shoot in a ar15 platform also.
I got 50 call muzzloader..takes 451 barnes
250 bullet then got 460 pistol.. then I got the katahdin barrel...I dont have access to
Chronograph...is 200 gr the best then heavier rounds....can you see what 454 casull info. With 460 barrel see if there is more energy and how big the drop is
And other 460 ammo info thanks
Great job
That 200 grain 460 S&W was smoking hot. That's nearly 4000 foot pounds of energy.
What would be your pick in a 14" braked pistol Encore?
Marlin 1895, .45-70, 250 gr Barnes copper hollow point, mv 2,600. Nothing walks away.
I miss the .450 marlin.
Great video. Cheers
You should have added the 50 Alaskan for people that want to hunt up north for the big bears or moose
How does the 450 BM compare to a 458 socom?
Give me a information IMPORTANT - can shot 454, 45Lc and 410 Shell on a 460 weapon ?
I have Katahdin barrels in both 45-70 and the 460 S&W. I really love these rifles but that 460 is a bruiser. I have a Smith & Wesson XVR in 460 and it is a powder puff to shoot compared to the Thompson.
I was wondering if porting the Katahdin barrel is a good idea.
I also have a S&W 460 revolver and an Encore 460 pistol. The encore is punishing to shoot. Even with a muzzle brake. The folks at S&W put some special magic into there revolvers to have them behave so well with this cartridge. Maybe that gain rifleing has a real purpose. I have resigned my 460 encore to subsonic Trailboss loads suppressed exclusively.
I believe MGM was correct in stating that 460 was the hardest on equipment. Chambering it in anything other than the x frame revolver seems a little silly but most of us have to learn the hard way.
@@feralfx6764 bp?
I just can’t understand why no one will give a real review on 4570, I get it it’s an ancient round but I love it and a lot of other Americans do sure wish someone would do it right
You should have been consistent with bullet weights to have a fare comparison !
not necessarily so. different cartridges do better/worse with different weights. its not a one size fits all
boedude exactly
Not always possible or realistic. I’m not an expert on rifle calibers, but I’ll use pistols as an example. Both 9mm and .357 magnum use the same diameter bullet, but .357 usually utilizes heavier projectiles than 9mm. 9mm usually comes in a 115 to 124 grain projectile where it’s hard to find .357 with anything less than 130 grains. You can find some rounds that match for a “fair” comparison, but I would argue that it’s not necessarily a realistic one.
You need a bigger scope on that rifle in the opening sequence.
450 Bowel movement all the way
What’s the diameter on those test barrels .810 or .875 ? Thanks
Thanks for the video. I learned something new today. I hope your velocity data are correct because I'm in disbelief that the 460SW, a smaller cartridge than the 444 Marlin and the 45-70 Gov't, has more energy than the 444 Marlin and 45-70 Gov't.
Velocity buddy
That's the wonder of pressure in a case. It's like boost for a motor.
.450 BM for me.
Most affordable and accessible ammo, and dumps its energy in deer.
It would have been more apples to apples if the same bullet weight was used, then velocity can be used to determine energy, then you can debate that difference in the cartridges.