ACOG vs LPVO
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ต.ค. 2023
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The venerable ACOG has proven itself for decades in the field and in combat, but we see it generally falling out of favor and being replaced with low power variables (LPVOs). In this video we directly compare the old school @TrijiconInc ACOG to a modern @sigsauerinc LPVO and discuss the benefits of detriments of both, as well as put them against each other on courses of timed fire to draw a more thorough conclusion.
Everyone know K98k+Acog4x is the future
You grab a k98k with an acog and hide on a hillside. I grab the first car I see and create manburger helper. We are not the same
What is this pubg
Mosin FTW
@@SteelHexmosin IS trash nothing to do with a máuser
Lol what?:)
I was a Armor In the Marines around 2008. The adoption of the acog was astounding what it did to the range scores. Sad part is how many we broke due to everytime you went to the range you were issued a different rifle. It was Never ment to be adjusted that much. So they would wear out and you just can't sight them in. That really bothered me when I was in. You knew the problem but its the government they dont care.
Yeah, using a drill to change windage or elevation (joke, but you know what I mean) is one way to wear out/break an ACOG.
More like how your average soldiers doesn't care for government-issued gears, because it isn't theirs
I left right as we started giving out Rico’s for recruits. Was it about on par with how often you had to swap front sight posts?
Please excuse my question but do i get that correct, soldiers were issued a different rifle when going to the range for live shooting?
That would 🤯.
The reason i am asking: I am from a country with conscription, and on my first day i got issued a rifle which then was sighted in to me. (the adjustment of the optic was done by the shoting instructor based on where my shots placed) and i kept that rifle and used it at every live shooting until i was sent to a different branch for different training.
So out optics basically only got adjusted only when the rifle was issued to a new recruit.
@@nirfz I was USMC infantry from 2005-2009, and we definitely kept the same rifle. I think we did reissues shortly after deployments (twice over my 4 years), but that must have been a POG thing to juggle rifles for every range
I'm from a country without the ability to own guns freely and you guys make this topic so approachable and interesting that I've been a sub for years and years. Just want to say thanks for being awesome.
Same. But the level of nerdiness is just awesome! 🙂
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This discussion/comparison is why I am subscribed to your channel. Great topic/comparison! Thank you!
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As a Marine, I have a lot of trigger time behind an TA31 RCO on a M16A4, and I have seen that optic work miracles. I am a big fan of that optic. It does a lot of work for you. What the ACOG lacks in zoom range, it usually makes up for being more lighter and more compact, simpler and more durable. It is intuitive and it just works. I think it might still be prudent to have an RMR either offset or piggy-backing, but that wasn't really an option when I was issued it. We ran all our tables with the RCO, and even at 50 feet, shooting on the move with both eyes open, it could surprise you. I think the ACOG is still completely relevant and makes a lot of sense on the WWSD because it shares the emphasis on lightweight durability and simplicity.
The only thing about ACOGs I don't like is the short eye relief.
@armynurseboy Yes. That can be an issue. But the tradeoff for that short eye relief is an exceptional field of view. The RCO has a significantly wider field of view than other 4x32 scopes.
This is a terrific breakdown. So clear and concise.
Terrific?:):)
More like interesting*
Ive been using a TA-31 for 8 years now. Been through red dots, lpvo's, higher mag scopes, offset dots and every other optic and have always came back to my TA-31 with a piggy backed dot. Perfect setup for anything you will do with an AR-15. Nobody will convice me otherwise until a 1-10 that can read my mind to what magnification i want and be as light and durable as an ACOG. Plus night vision with a piggy backed optic is poggers.
Night vision?
Still waiting for Acogs to cost less than a rifle.
Most optics cost more than the rifle now, considering you can get a complete AR15 for $400 or less.
@@InrangeTv true, but with tech advancing the way it is, I would expect the price point to drop some. Seems like economy of scale would take effect by now.
Buy used!
Just buy a gucci rifle, problem solved 👍
@@civicsr2cool kinda going the other way with that solution, lol
I’d love to see a video on how the ACOG stacks up against more modern prisms on the market
Espicially the new PA 5x Cyclops. If they had an RMR mount to piggy back, I'd get that as an update to replace my ACOG.
@@PilgrimXXIIlook up Brass Facts review on the PA 5x optic, pretty intriguing
@@PilgrimXXII The 5x is fine. If you want one, get it. Personally it really isn’t “better” than an Acog and I never noticed any benefit from the extra magnification. A modern prism is probably something closer to the TAO2 if I was in charge of the criteriaz
Great breakdown, I always appreciate the level of experience you two bring to gear discussions. I also appreciate that you seem to be one of the few channels that still talks about the ACOG at all
Much appreciated!
This pretty closely mirrors what I've heard others consistently say when it comes to variable magnification:
- The quality of your 1x is much more important than your max magnification, because if you were focusing on better magnification you'd use a dedicated prism or MPVO
- 1-10s are mostly not worthwhile for *shooting* purposes for most people, specifically because of the focus issue. Most people are better served by a 1-6 / 1-8 *or* a 2-10 / 2-12, etc.
- for shooting at a known target with 5.56 4x is basically perfect, higher magnifications are more about positively IDing what you're looking at to see if it *is* a target, or for taking a "high value" shot where you need to not miss
I don't always follow the channel now of days, but I always learn something some yall. Cheers.
There’s LPVOs and there’s the VCOG. Nothing compares to it. Great video and content 🇺🇸
Nice! Thank you both. Richard.
Another fantastic video, I really enjoy these sorts of gear discussions.
I'm not a match shooter and my fixed 4x scope isn't an ACOG, but I have personally found that under physical and time stress that having a fixed 4x zoom that I don't need to touch or think about is faster and less error prone then my attempts to use a LPVO.
I really think this is one of those personal preference moments, like discussed in the video they're both viable options, you just need to ask yourself what you prefer under stress. I can do the both eyes open thing very easily so that also pushes me towards the fixed magnification option, but that's not a universal option.
Ive got an ACOG TA-31 and a VCOG 1-6. I have to say I prefer the Acog in most all scenarios. But i sure like both!
sounds like you dont shoot much, go shoot a match.
Things work different for everyone. I prefer my TA02 with a piggy back RMR over any LPVO. The wide FOV just works better for me. And yes I have shot in matches. Still prefer the ACOG. Luckily we can all choose what works best for us.
@@DefZen343 sounds like YOU don't shoot much. Can't use a magnified optic as a red dot? Definitely a skill issue. Open both eyes and go train.
@@W1ckedRcL i shoot 2 gun matches every month, and dmr matches every few months, if you want to force an inferior optic to work then thats fine but talking like you overcoming a disadvantage of an optic makes a disadvantage disappear is silly 👀
@@DefZen343 there's a reason that the ACOG is the most successful and effective combat optic ever created. The fact that you THINK it has disadvantages doesn't mean it actually has disadvantages. We used it so well in Fallujah that we were investigated for executing prisoners because we hit so many done shots. What you need is training. What you have is a crutch.
Acog with a piggyback RDS is still kinda goated. I only wish that someone made a cantilevered mount to move an RMR from the rear to the front of the standard TA-31. Would be better under nods that way too.
Very Interesting data here. It all depends on the specific task you are trying to do.
if trijicon would update the reticles they offer, it would be even more of a no brainer. the ACSS acog that Primary Arms sold for years was probably their best selling model, but they no longer have anything with wind holds.
Primary Arms did a colab with Trijicon and did an ACSS reticle in the ACOG chasis.
@@PilgrimXXII that's the second half of my comment....
@@mattcomchoc2957 your right. My bad. I missed that part.
Because of the greater durability of something like a red dot-magnifier combo I often think about a 1x prism with a flip magnifier, since the etched reticle would be sharper under magnification than a dot, and it could incorporate things like BDC and ranging estimations, all without changing how you hold the gun. Then I realize that I've reinvented the Elcan Specter 1-4 from first principles.
Great info. Thanks guys.
Welcome to Idaho!!! Hope you enjoy it here, and you're close. Payette here!!
Excellent video and well done
Great comparison video, surprised how well the acog worked in this setting
Very well stated. I used to shoot with a couple of silhouette/ small bore aces that won more than their fair share of target matches with 6x or less optics. Lessons learned the hard way.Go back in the historical record and notice that Jack O'connor recommended a 4x for everything, a 2x for dense brush,and a 6x for only the most open plains.times have changed for sure, but there is a legion of great riflemen that echo the same sentiments your video states. Don't get hung up on excess magnification, concentrate on your reticle and technique. Too bad finding a fixed power is getting more difficult. Great video, this is why i recommend InRangeTV to anyone interested in firearms.👍
I qual'd with irons in boot camp, then was part of one of the first groups of Marines to have ACOGs (or "RCO" as they call it for whatever reason) when I got to MCT (and from that point on). Had a brand new, still oily, fresh out the box M16A4 with a shiny new RCO on it. It always amazed me how many people didn't trust the thing. They'd try to do weird windage stuff and miss, then their qual scores would suck and they'd blame the optic...it was baffling. I loved the thing. Works great! lol
The ACOG is just a bullet proof optic even heavily used ones are still completely serviceable
Nice discussion. Thanks
Thanks again for the great content, love to hear about Firearm philosophy. What do you want your gun to do.
Currently stationed in 29 palms (kill me). My unit recently started the process of switching over from the acog to lpvos. The difference is night and day. There’s a reason we’re all switching, they’re better in almost every way. Sure acogs are “bomb proof” but from what I’ve seen in the field acogs sturdiness is overrated, and people don’t give lpvos enough credit. Sure it’s the most battle proven optic, I’ll give you that, but if you look at all our tier one and tier two groups none of them run acogs anymore. Same reason with not running the m16. Good video, good discussion.
Great discussion! After tinkering with several different setups for about a decade I've come to similar conclusions, that the choice is subjective and very condition specific. However if I just want to hit a silhouette with a 556 carbine from CQ distance out to 300 yards I still think a red dot is the most practical. In the end optics are no different from why we have shotguns, 22s, and big bore calibers; it depends on what you need it for.
A few tricks to do when piggy backing an RMR on the ACOG. First, don't worry about rear BUIS placement behind the ACOG, put them in front of the scope mount, if you like them on your bang stick. Secondly, train to use your non-dominant eye for the RMR. That way when you go to the RMR there's less interference with your lid. A freebie, wear a boonie with a peak sewn into the front of the hat to create a pocket for the optics group to go.
Mount your Acog to a fixed M16a2 carry handle and use iron sights as your 1x backup through the optic mount tunnel.
i just loved my ACOG when i was in souly because of how bomb proof it was, we had two guys on our team who had LPVOs and when you are carrying your rilfe all day, bumping stuff, sand, even just rubbing on your gear and shit, it would fuck with that LPVO after a while. the ACOG was always aces. we aren't talking about having it out for an afternoon but just... living with the thing for weeks at a time in-between shooting the thing while on Gard duty and whatnot meant that if something popped off you could be sure about your ACOG. not so sure about the LPVO. those guys always had trouble needing to re zero and shit when we did get back to the range, i never had that problem.
I have 3 ACOGS and I just mounted a 35 degree can’t Holosun and I’m in love
I recently tried an ACOG with forward mounted rmr. I thought it was a good combo. I am interested to see such a configuration using the new RCR
I came up with the ACOG in the Army and I own a couple of my own. I think the ACOG with be a go to choice for a lot of guys for years to come, just because they have real world experience with them and trust them. I use a chevron reticle, I know newer reticles have come out, but in my experience the chevron is big enough to work well for CQC using the BAC. It's far from perfect, but you can usually get good enough hits using that method.
I'm not against piggyback optics, it all depends on what you're doing, but going in and out of vehicles and moving around the average home, makes a piggyback RMR more likely to get hit into things. I know some people still prefer that and I guess its more of a personal choice. I have an LPVO with an RMR piggybacked on a rifle but if pressed I'd still use my M4 type rifle with the TA31F. My soldiering days are behind me, so I won't likely ever switch or put in the time to get really comfortable with a new system. Familiarity plays a big part in my choices. I can certainly see the advantage of the LVPO's.
The 3.5X ACOG is much more forgiving WRT eye relief.
Pass on a acog. Once you train with one youll never try anything else.
That goes for anything else, someone could be John Wick with irons
How much does the added topside weight of larger optics affect the feel and handling of your rifle? In my limited experience, they make a rifle noticeably top heavy; how quickly do you train through this? This is one reason I much prefer lightweight units like the PA 3x microprism--though I'm sure there's an ACOG in my future...
The thumbnail made no mention of Mr Phagan. What a treat👍
I'm BOOOOOOOSTING (for the algo)
Cool t-shirts on both!
I have a 1.5 and a 3x. I love them. By far my favorite optics over my red dots amd lvpo’s. Still need to grab a 4x.
Sinistral's Warhammer 40K Adeptus Mechanicus T-shirt is quite something hehe :)
All praise the Omnimessiah!
I was looking for someone who would bring that up. Is he a fan or something? Or does the symbol only just look like the symbol of the Adeptus Mechanicus, but is in fact something else?
My ACOG on my rifles will probably outlive me and go to my grandkids. I love the Trijicon ACOG on my rifles.
I have a TA31 RCO-A4 mounted on my 20" Criterion Core barrel build via the Larue TackTickle QD mount that places it further back on the receiver to work better with fixed stocks (mine is an MOE rifle). It is paired with a Micro T2 on an offset Arisaka mount. I find that the offset shooting position works really well with my plate carrier (Spiritus Systems LV115) due to the angled relief of the plate. I would run a piggyback rds, but that will bump into my helmet's nvg shroud and mount. I wish Trijicon would offer the TA02 with a 20" callibrated reticle, so I could run a front mounted red dot for passive aiming and gas mask use.
Quite honestly, a 4X ACOG without any illumination with a solid mounting boss for a red dot up front would be absolutely awesome.
both work, really think at this point it’s what you train more on. A ton of people have decades on the ACOG, at which one point I’d assume it’s their preferred setup. Vice versa for those of us who basically have only ever used LVPOs
@12:45 immediately reminded me of the recent 5.56 vs SVD video.
ACOG with a top mounted RMR here is something nice to ponder on
Have you done a red/green dot prism scope? Fixed power or variable? With my astigmatism, old age and unwillingness to chase shot deer (range limit at 200 yds) I'm looking at one for my 6mm AR build. If I get healthy enough I might even try it in local 3 gun competition.
I’ve been wondering about the utility of LVPOs that go higher than 1-6x magnification. I hadn’t thought of the focus issue that Russell mentioned. However, that first focal plane reticle is going to get *really* small at 1x power. Maybe that doesn’t matter close in if your illumination is bright enough?
A lot of FFP reticles will be designed in a way that there is a large, illumination portion of the reticle that is clearly visible on 1x, that when you increase mag it you will look through it. The easiest example would be one of the EoTech Vudu 1-6 or 1-10’s that have the iconic dot and donut at 1x, and then at max mag the BDC/Mil tree are visible in the center with the donut being on the edge or out of the field of view.
@@ShurkMan413 good to know - thanks
I haven't had a lot of time behind an LPVO. I think the idea is great. I have a lot of time behind an ACOG and it is a great optic. When they were first issued, I was always worried I was going to break it. After 6 months of use I had stopped worrying when it hit something.
BAC does work for closer in stuff but it takes a lot of work. Inside of 25-30m, I used the front fin of the tritium.
The ACOG lives!!! Nice video
Love my TA31 with the Holosun 507C on it. It is sooooo easy to hit your targets at any range. Also I like the REM ACOG illuminator for those low light conditions. Now my TA31 has the same abilities as the TA02 but I keep the fiber optic. Best of both worlds! :)
Who needs armored divisions when you got this tank of a man.
Can we all just acknowledge that Carl is an excellent shooter. I need some random jackass to do these tests
Noooooo I need my 1-10lpvo with a scopeswitch to change magnification without breaking grip and a canted RMR to be tactical
I think you misspelled tacticool.
I agree with Karl’s assessment. The ACOG plus an RMR is still highly effective.
Karl, what do you think about the difference in speed of simply moving your head (chin weld to cheek weld) to go from the dot to 4X vs. dialing magnification? I recently heard a fairly “high speed” combat veteran say that rapid target engagements at substantially different ranges favored the ACOG plus RMR.
I think switching to the RMR on the ACOG is faster than dialing an LPVO. It's also less disruptive to the sight picture and situational awareness.
We ran secondary piggy back micro red dots with the ACOG and ELCAN. However GWOT experience only goes so far.
I spent a lot if time with M4 acog and SR-25 with Leupold x10 or Nightforce x6-12 (If I remember correctly), and by far ACOG is my favorite optic.
What surprises me is that noone mentioned the trick of using ACOG with both eyes open. With sufficient practice (when I got it issued after my red dot, I spent about 3 hours adjusting my non-dominant eye), ACOG is achieving red dot performance even under stress. X4 is sufficient for all 5.56 applications, and it is DURABLE as hell.
I still shoot everything with both eyes open, even my iron sights Glock.
Yup. That's the thing. Being able to go down to one. I feel so much safer.
Curious, a diopter is to focus the reticle, not the target. Are you saying the reticle clarity is changing at different magnifications?
Question. Could you do a SIG-550/Stgw90 Mud Reliability Mud Test??
Now you released it, let there be rage and contraversy. REALEASE THE SWARM!
I have to wonder if all these matches at extreme range are shot with the targets at specific distances known to the shooter, or if some feature targets that are out there at who (range official) knows what range?
I shot a local 3 gun match last weekend with reduced targets out to 100 and 200 from a VTAC barricade I run a FFP primary arms ACSS raptor I set it to 4X and it was perfect
Funny this just came out, I JUST sold my LPVO for an ACOG and offset SCRS.
Has anyone every tried the Bindon Aiming Concept in a match or on duty? I'm wondering if it really can overcome some of the short range advantages that the LPVO has over the ACOG.
just consistently the best firearm content
I switched from a 1-10 lpvo to a prism with a red dot for the weight savings and simplicity. lpvo's are still great though.
After owning both deploying with one. I am however impartial to the ACOG 14.5-18in.
Wow, looks like I'm actually first to the party for once.
This is gonna be a good one, I bet.
Nice video, gentlement. One thing...I thought ACOGs had that whole "bindon aiming concept" thing going for it for short-range "red-dot" like engagements.
It doesn’t work as well in practice as it does in theory
@@SinistralRifleman Interesting. Doesn't it sort of rely on the concept that the original Armson OEG sight used?
I always wondered why ACOG users seemed to have a small RDS on their gun too. I figured it was just faster to have a dedicated sight and that they didn't have a lot of practice with BAC.
I believe you’ll find, as you alluded to, that not one optic can do it all. The easy solution is multiple uppers with the required optic(s) for different mission sets. Know your gear and train. Most likely you’ll get by should things get a bit sideways.
Are you guys from Parma? I’m currently near fruitland and would love to come out and shoot with y’all
We'l be back in 2024 for High Desert Brutality, early entry for Patreons and regular entry via Brutalitymatches.org
What about fixed 10x vs lvpo on dmr rifles?
Free the Iron Sights!
"Where that's helpful is, ...." LMAO 👍👍👍
(EVERYWHERE! 🤣)
Does something like a 4-6 or 4-8 flip up magnifier exist?
Not a variable. You can get a 3 or 5 power flip up. I use a 3 to great effect.....
How about a carry handle with a seethrough rail and an acog mounted on top? :)
LED acog replacement with current standard for prisms would be the best thing since first acog release.
The LED powered ACOG has the red dot mount at the front of the optic
The simpler design makes me feel better running my acog. Its my favorite rifle optic and if it didnt look so awkward I'd have one on my hunting rifle.
Anyone having issues finding the sig optic with numbers in the reticle?
Once you get that drilling part out for LPVOs its easy mode after that
What pistol were your using?
Not relevant to this video.
Very interesting perspective. I just watched a streaming event from the Dark Lord of Optics in which he featured the new prismatic scope, the Element Immersive 5x30 Prismatic scope, with a very unique reticle designed by Ilya. I asked which type of optics (LPVO vs Prism w/rds) would be best for my style of shooting which was mostly up-close with a few occasional 100-300 yard targets. His feedback was that he is impressed with the optical clarity and the features within the reticle (as he should be since it's his design) of the Immersive 5x30 which revivals that of a $1,300 LPVO. This video only adds validity to his recommendations
I wonder how this will change in 10, 20, maybe 30 years as technology advances and gives more and more information on the scope. We already see with the NGSW how LPVO and more complex systems can give you information like range and ballistic trajectory. At that point, would a simpler, more rugged design be less viable since you are trading off more? Or, will the more rugged designs be upgraded too without sacrificing durability? Theoretically, you could slap a solar panel on the gun and have it charge batteries in the gun or scope , meaning it would work as long as you weren’t in the dark for 1000 hours with it on. Will optics like ACOGs become more backup optics instead of iron sights?
I’m legitimately asking. If anyone has any ideas, I would love to hear them.
I like ACOGs, but the Trijicon Credo is my go to for optics. Might not be the highest of speeds or lowest of drags, but it’s been through some rough stuff, especially in Idaho.
Tango MSR is pretty much the king of entry level LPVOs where it had the best bang for buck with the mount, lay flat caps, throw lever and level line as features while having good glass and reticle despite being Chinese glass. All the other optics like strike eagles and PA pretty much needed to release 2nd gen optics just to keep up. They practically started selling gen 1 strike eagles for 150 due to SIGs predatory pricing.
That being said, it’s a far cry in quality when compared against SIGs higher end optics that come with Japanese or American glass. It also pales with upper end scopes like the razor or even higher tier scopes like kahles.
But as an FFP 1-10, not much are at its weight class as compared to it’s SFP 1-6. It’s nice, but FFP is hard to do well, even for a razor gen 3. Eye box and reliefs suffers. I’d prefer an SFP for a carbine then I’ll just do some quick mental math to approximate hits depending on the magnification if it’s bdc. (I.e. if bdc says first click is 100 at 6x, then I’d think that at 1x the first hash is 600). Though id still prefer mils when there are hash marks as bdc’s aren’t accurate since it’s tested on a specific barrel length, bullet weight and velocity.
I’d take the lpvo for capability, but kinda see more quality with an acog despite its age. Still clear glass with robust durability and gives drip. Also worth more to trade up to get into more quality LPVOs. Tango MSR, I’d rock it but it wouldn’t be my top choice if I’m spending at least 5 hundo, more so since I’d rather have a usable 1-6 throughout the range than have a barely usable 6-10x. Heck, I dig 1-5s enough too, better mag than a 4x acog and is quite flat and forgiving eye box and reliefs too if you’re paying FFP tango msr prices or higher.
You know how we have flip to side magnifiers.
We need something similar “optic flipper” so you could mount an acog and red dot side to side and flip them back and forth to bring either one into the optimum 12:00 position (with the other optic at 10:30/1:30 and still useable in an emergency).
Though I’d do a t-2 instead of an rmr
That sounds wild lol
Theoretically possible, but difficult to implement. To have it return to a true zero each flip would be an engineering nightmare and the weight to make it durable would be prohibitive. Not even going to touch the cost.
Magnifiers work well because small amounts of shift do lot matter since the red dot is what holds the zero.
I think that, if the Stoner project is about reducing weight, then the ACOG will win in this match-up as it's about seven ounces lighter than the LPVO you had. However, I'm assuming it isn't entirely about weight, otherwise you'd be putting on 2.5 ounces of polymer "iron" sights on them. What I think would be a good compromise between weight and usability would be a red dot or holographic sight with one of these quick detach magnifiers... assuming they work.
What is the device thst is on the ACOG?
th-cam.com/users/shortszjgtTh8g9o4?feature=share
In defense of the Patrons, ACOG is more in line with the WWSD concept than LPVOs.
LPVO all the way ! With 1-6 power as 6x has enough for what a 5.56 can do.
Reflex and magnifier.
Do "facogs" count, too? 'Cause y'know I got one o' those. lol
I've never used one. No idea.
Fake acogs are people too
I’ve got two for fun range guns, surprisingly they’ve held up for YEARS..
The ACOG works for 5.56. Anything with more juice and you'd be hard-pressed to argue with variable magnification. I'm LPVO gang but I'm biased :)