As a General (that Giles wants her to become) she's not supposed to get to know the soldiers as friends as it WILL affect your decisions. This was an ABSOLUTE BETRAYAL.
Exactly! Same thing with surgeons. You are not allowed to operate on a loved one because you need to see just a body in front of you to be able to do your job, not a person you have feelings for which might affect your skills. And betrayal is unforgivable in general. No discussion there.
It was very weird, to the point it took me out of my suspension of disbelief, and into the space of, "oh, the writers are taking her to a low place for drama reasons, and that's why everyone is being out of character..." Also, Dawn kicked her out of her own house, which was probably the weirdest bit ...Buffy could have kicked all of the guests out, if it came to it🤣.
My only thing I loved in this was Spike and he's comedy gold Blooming Onion love😂, Other than that I remember when this episode happened.. Pure White hot Rage! The back stabbing and betrayal..I wanted All of them do die...I was ready for Spike to return and stomp a mud hole in Everyone! I was not disappointed! Next episode! Happy Halloween Dakara Stay awesome 🎃🤘
I get where they’re all coming from. They’re terrified, and with good reason. And Buffy’s not doing anything to reassure them. She hasn’t found a way to connect with any of the Potentials all season. She isn’t selling them on her plan to go back in there, she’s just telling them “we’re doing it”. She’s not giving them any reason to believe their second fight with Caleb is going to go any better, so they probably feel like she doesn’t care. I think it’s always interesting how Buffy talks about “I’m the Chosen One, none of you can understand what that feels like or what it means, it’s so lonely, also you need to follow me” - but there’s Faith, right there, exactly as Chosen as Buffy. And here she is in the same room, and Buffy still doesn’t think to recognize her, much less reach out seek her support. (Imagine what might have been if Buffy had actually opened up to Faith instead of shutting her out back in S3.) This is where all that self-isolating gets her, and I think the show is putting her in a place to learn and grow.
Originally, Xander was supposed to die, which is why the house turned against her - especially Willow and Anya. The decision was changed close to last minute, but a lot of the plot beats remained, like the united front against Buffy.
As far as the Potentials are aware, Buffy isn't a hero who's saved the word multiple times. She's just the person they were sent to for safety when everyone around them was getting killed; but she doesn't pay them much attention and to date hasn't been very successful in keeping them alive. (Faith's comment about Buffy not learning their names really hit home.) Even if they have heard the original Scoobies going on about how great Buffy is, that doesn't match the evidence of their own eyes so far. I'm not criticising Buffy here. She's carrying a burden that we viewers can see, but the Potentials can't. I'm saying that from their angle, we can't blame them for not having the same view of Buffy that we have. I also think that the fight at the end of the episode blew up out of nowhere. It wasn't that they planned to bring all those points up then and there, but things got out of control. And frankly, Buffy saying, "Well, our last attack on the vineyard was a disaster; some of your friends were killed, others were crippled, but I think we should do the same thing again" IS a bad idea. At the end of Season 5 they had a group brainstorming session on ways to defeat Glory. Here, Buffy is just giving them orders - and they don't like those orders. Personally, I blame Giles for telling her she has to act like a general. She's trying to do things the Watchers' Council way, not the Buffy way. Also, the scene where they vote to kick Buffy out of the Summers house probably seemed less jarring back in 2003 when the TV show Big Brother was a huge international success...
Buffy needs time to get her head on straight. Everyone turning on her wasn't a good thing, but it may have been what she needed. She has to find herself, to come to grips with the fact that she is the one that needs to be able to thread the needle so to speak. I hope you're drinking more than coffee(Tim Hortons is okay, but not as good as Starbucks). You soup, and tea, and - I know it sounds gross - warm lemonade. Most importantly you need rest, and I hope you're getting some.
She was correct that's where the power item was. She was willing to talk about strategies not let's go right now. It's a war where a battle has to happen. And time is of the essence. She's saved the world countless times made the hard decisions lost a LOT to be ambushed by a bunch of kids and her friends
Alyson Hannigan crying at 2.25 and making everyone else automatically cry with her is her special magical ability. I genuinely don't think there are any better cryers in the biz.
2 potential die(i think), 1 lost an eye, others got injure and buffy say let's go back for round 2 or more like round 3 because i got beat up again when i was alone with the priest. At that point buffy got no plan and is reckless. Should they have take her aside and tell her it was a stupid idea instead of doing it in front of everyone... absolutely. but at the same time buffy keep pushing those situation where it's my way or no way and it's the moment that it come to a boiling point and everyone is on edge.
The last few episodes of the S7 had so much going on it was hard to keep up. The way they all turned against Buffy after all she had done for them over the years was so painful to watch at the time. Kennedy and Rhona were utterly despicable, along with the rest of the Scooby Gang. All this leads up to the brilliance of the last few episodes, super writing again, but Andrew is still utterly irritating if entertaining also. Spike reading the scripture, brilliant foreshadowing here. Buffy is of course right they always try to protect the power, they must return to the vineyard, there is a reason for Caleb wanting to defend it. This episode is all about the meeting in Buffy's house this is so difficult to watch with Dawn striking the final blow, after Buffy laid down her very life to save her. We know there is only one who will stand by Buffy, even though he is not at the meeting he has read the scripture 'it is not for thee, it is for her alone to wield'.
💯 I never liked Dawn, but that was the last nail in the coffin. Claiming that it's her house too and Buffy needs to leave when she never lifted a finger and Buffy had to find a second job (apart from fighting evil) right after she was ripped out of heaven by her "friends", being a mom to Dawn even though she just lost her mom too and still nothing was ever enough, it was always about Dawn, Dawn, Dawn. Really grateful...
This is a complete 180 for me and I'm pissed, if they were going to have everyone turn on Buffy they should have done more build up for it. But this even with Xander losing his eye, just feels like a 180 to me.
Something I took from this just after watching your reaction is that responsibility and authority to some extend go together. The slayer's responsibility was put onto Buffy, so naturally she has the authority and people need to follow her. As Faith and Buffy both said, they are "The Law". People can't expect them to take on this responsibility, if they don't trust their judgement. While the distrust after the confrontation with Caleb is justified, they should be able to compromise on some other solution than "If you're not with us, you have to leave".
I actually think this episode needed to happen. Buffy was struggling, she didn't really know what she needed to do and she needed some time apart from her huge responsibilities to get some clarity and reflect on the situation. She is giving orders at this point, but not leading in a way that they can follow any more. Faith giving the kids a break and the group bonding in the fight against the cops helped everyone come together without Buffy. It was a tough situation, and it definitely felt like a betrayal, it wasn't done in the best of ways, but Buffy did the right thing outside talking to Faith, giving her best advice as she passed the baton, albeit grudgingly. Now we put Faith to the test, give everyone else a taste of her leadership. The ending? Not gonna spoil it, just keep watching...and have Faith. 😉
The only way i can watch this and not hate every person in that room besides Buffy, is to remember the First was influencing everybody in the town. They werent immune.
I understand why they do it, and I understand why the narrative 'needs' it. But it's a rare case in Buffy where the writers really really fumbled. I think a scene in, like Potential or First Date or Get it Done, where Dawn and Willow talk, Dawn brings up what Joyce said in Conversations ..., and Willow says something like, "I'm worried you might be right" ... Coupled with the growing distance between B and Giles, it might have at least sowed the seeds more clearly.
while i hate everyone turning on buffy, looking back, it does make sense not just because nobody agreed with buffy's plan but also because buffy has been steadily alienating every single person in that room for the whole duration of this season. kicking her out of her own house is a bit overboard though
It doesn't make sense that they would all turn on her like that. Ok, I get that it's a plot device to ramp up the drama but even so. The potentials might be persuaded, but Giles, Willow, Xander? After all they've been through together? No, sorry, doesn't ring true.
Wrong title. This is _Empty Places._ Any in-fighting the group does is supporting The First because in-fighting is The First's biggest tool against the group. Whether it was telling Wood, as his mother, who murdered his mother or whether it was The First telling Dawn, as Joyce, Buffy won't choose her, which I think is what caused Dawn to say in this episode, "Then you can't stay here." Dawn's not choosing Buffy before Buffy doesn't choose her, thus playing even further into The First's hands. This moment goes against what many people defending The Scoobies say, which is the fact that if everyone wanted a new leader, due to Xander losing an eye, kicking Buffy out wasn't the right option. Buffy told the group she couldn't save everyone in war and has been warning Xander how dangerous slaying is since the second episode of the series ("Xander, this is deeply dangerous"). I disagree with said new leadership of Faith, as does Faith herself, but the group is so against Buffy, they don't listen to Faith. Kicking Buffy out creates in-fighting The Fist clearly wants, and Buffy's house (as of the beginning of this episode) is the only place in Sunnydale vampires don't have entrance to, so kicking her out (whether they assume she can handle herself or not) is a mistake. Xander not only retcons everything good he says about Buffy during his earlier episode speech (the one that had Buffy crying happy tears) by kicking her out, but in the two hour pilot when Buffy says, "Xander, this is deeply dangerous." The fact that in S1 he dismisses this and thinks Buffy's thinking him, "less than a man," compared to what he's saying now shows a long term-ness of never really taking Buffy seriously in these type of situations. I criticize him (and everyone else) for not listening to all her (including the S7) speeches or any other moments like those. The writers stated in behind the scenes footage that Xander losing an eye is the reason behind the kicking Buffy out moment. There's a little more to it, but it would be spoiler-y past this episode. The other argument I’ve seen fans against Buffy say is to argue the fact that Buffy leaves willingly. The defense I have there is that it is the difference between a person resigning and a person getting fired. Resigning, in this case is getting fired without the higher ups saying so. The argument of Buffy leaving on her own is Buffy "resigning" herself to the fact that she isn't The General anymore and doesn't want to in-fight, as The First wants. Its just another form of getting kicked aka "fired" from being The General because The Scoobies don't trust her leadership. Anya was one of four people who resurrected Buffy (the others being Willow, Tara and Xander) and therefore allowed The First to create the S7 plot of killing the slayer line. She, Giles and possibly Willow knows this, so them blaming Buffy for anything happening, when the entirety of why is on their shoulders, is dumb. It is also a joke to have Anya say Buffy didn't earn the role of slayer or general, considering everything Buffy has done for them. The list on that, could go on for 104 hours and 34 minutes (the length of the series to this point). And on top of that, Anya didn't earn her power either. She was given it so she could murder, torture, etc., which she did through the power of the wish. Why did Giles call Buffy the general of the group if he was just going to undermine her at every decision he didn't like and toss her out when things went wrong? Buffy warned them all things like this would happen. Why weren't they listening? Post S6 Willow has a lot of nerve calling Buffy on a lack of judgement. Didn't the Scoobies (including Dawn) learn anything from when Joyce kicked Buffy out in S2? It's a good thing Buffy has grown emotionally since then. Too bad the group doesn't trust Buffy any more since then. Buffy brought up certain points to Xander during their _Selfless_ fight about what it means to be The Slayer, so the fact that the group in this episode are throwing those moments in Buffy's face (those moments specifically being: cutting herself off, someone needing to draw a line, having no guide book to the job of a slayer [and there is a slayer guidebook/handbook, Giles just never gives it to her, so that one is on him], and fighting alone) shows, once again, The Scoobies haven't been listening to Buffy, even before the war with The First started about even the moments not involving The First and its war. Buffy learns from her mistakes. I don't always feel Xander and Willow do if that is something they still don't understand about Buffy seven seasons later. Buffy has learned from Giles' "this isn't a joke" chastisement in _First Date,_ while none of the other Scoobies did, if they were recently going to The Bronze for fun. Giles himself seemed to revert, if he is urging the fun after the _First Date_ chastisement, or at least he has an agenda of his own that goes against what he said when he called Buffy the general upon first showing up in Sunnydale. The group go against everything Buffy learned in _First Date, I Never Kill a Boy on the First Date_ and _Reptile Boy_ when they kick Buffy out. Buffy may or may not have a good idea in going back to the vineyard. Risky either way. Just like war always is. That is not the problem. The real problem is Xander's eye is a moment when the group finally realize Buffy has been right about the danger and are taking it out on her because she is the General. I get that The Scoobies and SIT's are scared, but none of what they do in kicking Buffy out does anything except exactly what The First wants.
The worst scene in the whole show. They could have made that conflict in a way that didnt feel so awkward and undeserved. Faith line of "I dont know if I can lead but the real question is: can you follow?" Is actually an amazing line and makes sense. But its like you said, it feels like we missed an episode. Its similar to Tara and willow first fight were Tara out of nowhere question if willow will stay a lesbian or if its just experimentation. Feels like a bullet point they had to do but didnt figure how to arrive at it
Not a fan of the episode. It's not like a dislike the tone, it just felt rushed. Everyone turning on Buffy so quickly, it just did not feel as well developed as the vast majority of Whedon's long term plot lines. Turn on Buffy, fine, but the build-up felt like something from another show.
Buffy was right the rest were garbage. The fact the bought her back from the DEAD to fight their battles and they have the audacity to kick her out of HER house 😂. Slice it which ever way Buffy is the leader and the rest fall in line.
Yep, a doozy indeed :). _Excruciating_ to watch but... they're not wrong IMO. Buffy _hasn't_ kept them ALL safe, Potentials have died, Xander's maimed and she wants to go back in again, apparently with no new approach ? How many Potentials does she consider acceptable losses _this_ time ? Buffy isn't wrong either, not in her _aim_ but she _is_ willing to throw their lives away by her _methods_ and when it's _your_ life it's not just collateral damage. To Buffy they're soldiers and she's their General but no one is just a piece to be played. So I get where they're coming from even if the way they did it is _so_ wrong and nasty and infuriating and... all the things :). Plus, regardless of all that nuance, Rona can _absolutely_ just f*ck right off - "Ding dong, the witch is dead" !??? No. Just no. When _you've_ died twice literally saving the world THEN _maybe_ you get to say things like that. I'm really glad Dawn went for her in that moment both on an emotional level and because not doing so would've hurt the point being made in the scene. (lots of fans use what happens next to try to claim that Buffy was right all along but to me they're missing a major element that'll hopefully be apparent)
This whole theme is why I can't really stand this season, except a few choice episodes. The idea that Buffy didn't earn her place as leader is *absurd*, the lack of support she gets from the Scoobies is gross and also a repeat story. Over and over again in this series Buffy doesn't get the trust she deserves, and here they don't even give her basic respect. This season seems to force a wedge between Buffy and her friends that isn't earned, and seems to glorify a bizarre codependent relationship with Spike. I think the dynamic between Buffy and Faith is good, and I can oddly only see the care Faith has for Buffy, while all her close friends who she earned the trust of time and time again just shit on her. It doesn't feel authentic to the characters or to the relationships over the last 7 years.
I disagree. Buffy was right and the rest of them were flat-out wrong and disgusting. She was trying to explain why they needed to go now but they cut her off and just attacked her and kicked her out of her own house. I hate them all in this episode. They were ungrateful and despicable. This is my least favorite episode of all.
As a General (that Giles wants her to become) she's not supposed to get to know the soldiers as friends as it WILL affect your decisions. This was an ABSOLUTE BETRAYAL.
Exactly! Same thing with surgeons. You are not allowed to operate on a loved one because you need to see just a body in front of you to be able to do your job, not a person you have feelings for which might affect your skills.
And betrayal is unforgivable in general. No discussion there.
Spike's seasons long obsession with the bloomin' onion might be his most relatable trait. That thing is amazing when done right.
The mutiny does feel like it comes out of left field. It should have waited an episode.
Hey Dak! That's the wrong title you have that is from Series 4 Episode 19 New Moon Rising. This is 7x19 called Empty Places!
I noticed that, too.
If I am the one who pays the bills you get out of my house, not me! Betrayal is unforgivable!
It was very weird, to the point it took me out of my suspension of disbelief, and into the space of, "oh, the writers are taking her to a low place for drama reasons, and that's why everyone is being out of character..."
Also, Dawn kicked her out of her own house, which was probably the weirdest bit ...Buffy could have kicked all of the guests out, if it came to it🤣.
This one pisses everyone off. Nearly every reactor is like "excuse me?!?!?"
Clem was my favorite! ❤
He's cutting way back on the tiny tabbies!
I think this one is called Empty Places.
My only thing I loved in this was Spike and he's comedy gold Blooming Onion love😂, Other than that I remember when this episode happened.. Pure White hot Rage! The back stabbing and betrayal..I wanted All of them do die...I was ready for Spike to return and stomp a mud hole in Everyone! I was not disappointed! Next episode! Happy Halloween Dakara Stay awesome 🎃🤘
Absolutely! Loved his reaction when he returned, my personal hero! 😅
@GJS2183 Damn right! 👊 Definitely one of James Marsters favorite moments just pure Legend 💯
I get where they’re all coming from. They’re terrified, and with good reason. And Buffy’s not doing anything to reassure them. She hasn’t found a way to connect with any of the Potentials all season. She isn’t selling them on her plan to go back in there, she’s just telling them “we’re doing it”. She’s not giving them any reason to believe their second fight with Caleb is going to go any better, so they probably feel like she doesn’t care. I think it’s always interesting how Buffy talks about “I’m the Chosen One, none of you can understand what that feels like or what it means, it’s so lonely, also you need to follow me” - but there’s Faith, right there, exactly as Chosen as Buffy. And here she is in the same room, and Buffy still doesn’t think to recognize her, much less reach out seek her support. (Imagine what might have been if Buffy had actually opened up to Faith instead of shutting her out back in S3.) This is where all that self-isolating gets her, and I think the show is putting her in a place to learn and grow.
Originally, Xander was supposed to die, which is why the house turned against her - especially Willow and Anya.
The decision was changed close to last minute, but a lot of the plot beats remained, like the united front against Buffy.
As far as the Potentials are aware, Buffy isn't a hero who's saved the word multiple times. She's just the person they were sent to for safety when everyone around them was getting killed; but she doesn't pay them much attention and to date hasn't been very successful in keeping them alive. (Faith's comment about Buffy not learning their names really hit home.)
Even if they have heard the original Scoobies going on about how great Buffy is, that doesn't match the evidence of their own eyes so far.
I'm not criticising Buffy here. She's carrying a burden that we viewers can see, but the Potentials can't. I'm saying that from their angle, we can't blame them for not having the same view of Buffy that we have.
I also think that the fight at the end of the episode blew up out of nowhere. It wasn't that they planned to bring all those points up then and there, but things got out of control. And frankly, Buffy saying, "Well, our last attack on the vineyard was a disaster; some of your friends were killed, others were crippled, but I think we should do the same thing again" IS a bad idea.
At the end of Season 5 they had a group brainstorming session on ways to defeat Glory. Here, Buffy is just giving them orders - and they don't like those orders. Personally, I blame Giles for telling her she has to act like a general. She's trying to do things the Watchers' Council way, not the Buffy way.
Also, the scene where they vote to kick Buffy out of the Summers house probably seemed less jarring back in 2003 when the TV show Big Brother was a huge international success...
Buffy needs time to get her head on straight. Everyone turning on her wasn't a good thing, but it may have been what she needed. She has to find herself, to come to grips with the fact that she is the one that needs to be able to thread the needle so to speak. I hope you're drinking more than coffee(Tim Hortons is okay, but not as good as Starbucks). You soup, and tea, and - I know it sounds gross - warm lemonade. Most importantly you need rest, and I hope you're getting some.
She was correct that's where the power item was. She was willing to talk about strategies not let's go right now. It's a war where a battle has to happen. And time is of the essence. She's saved the world countless times made the hard decisions lost a LOT to be ambushed by a bunch of kids and her friends
1:17 I thought you were drinking Fairy Liquid for a second!
Alyson Hannigan crying at 2.25 and making everyone else automatically cry with her is her special magical ability. I genuinely don't think there are any better cryers in the biz.
Betrayal! Treachery! Conniving assholes!!!!
Ok, that said, let's hit play. I'm just mad at them all in advance. xD
💯
2 potential die(i think), 1 lost an eye, others got injure and buffy say let's go back for round 2 or more like round 3 because i got beat up again when i was alone with the priest. At that point buffy got no plan and is reckless. Should they have take her aside and tell her it was a stupid idea instead of doing it in front of everyone... absolutely. but at the same time buffy keep pushing those situation where it's my way or no way and it's the moment that it come to a boiling point and everyone is on edge.
Just a head's up, New Moon Rising is season 4 episode 19, not season 7 :P
The last few episodes of the S7 had so much going on it was hard to keep up. The way they all turned against Buffy after all she had done for them over the years was so painful to watch at the time. Kennedy and Rhona were utterly despicable, along with the rest of the Scooby Gang. All this leads up to the brilliance of the last few episodes, super writing again, but Andrew is still utterly irritating if entertaining also. Spike reading the scripture, brilliant foreshadowing here. Buffy is of course right they always try to protect the power, they must return to the vineyard, there is a reason for Caleb wanting to defend it. This episode is all about the meeting in Buffy's house this is so difficult to watch with Dawn striking the final blow, after Buffy laid down her very life to save her. We know there is only one who will stand by Buffy, even though he is not at the meeting he has read the scripture 'it is not for thee, it is for her alone to wield'.
💯 I never liked Dawn, but that was the last nail in the coffin. Claiming that it's her house too and Buffy needs to leave when she never lifted a finger and Buffy had to find a second job (apart from fighting evil) right after she was ripped out of heaven by her "friends", being a mom to Dawn even though she just lost her mom too and still nothing was ever enough, it was always about Dawn, Dawn, Dawn. Really grateful...
This is a complete 180 for me and I'm pissed, if they were going to have everyone turn on Buffy they should have done more build up for it. But this even with Xander losing his eye, just feels like a 180 to me.
Empty places not new moon rising
Something I took from this just after watching your reaction is that responsibility and authority to some extend go together.
The slayer's responsibility was put onto Buffy, so naturally she has the authority and people need to follow her. As Faith and Buffy both said, they are "The Law".
People can't expect them to take on this responsibility, if they don't trust their judgement.
While the distrust after the confrontation with Caleb is justified, they should be able to compromise on some other solution than "If you're not with us, you have to leave".
I'm so protective over Buffy and she doesn't get nearly enough apologies in this show 😅 Don't worry this ep makes us all fuming x
You've got Tim Hortons in england?
Yup, and in Ireland too. But like only in big cities. Like dublin, they are not that many around the country, especially Ireland.
I actually think this episode needed to happen. Buffy was struggling, she didn't really know what she needed to do and she needed some time apart from her huge responsibilities to get some clarity and reflect on the situation. She is giving orders at this point, but not leading in a way that they can follow any more.
Faith giving the kids a break and the group bonding in the fight against the cops helped everyone come together without Buffy. It was a tough situation, and it definitely felt like a betrayal, it wasn't done in the best of ways, but Buffy did the right thing outside talking to Faith, giving her best advice as she passed the baton, albeit grudgingly.
Now we put Faith to the test, give everyone else a taste of her leadership.
The ending? Not gonna spoil it, just keep watching...and have Faith. 😉
They were all affected by the hell mouth just like the cops were and made them extra aggressive
The only way i can watch this and not hate every person in that room besides Buffy, is to remember the First was influencing everybody in the town. They werent immune.
I understand why they do it, and I understand why the narrative 'needs' it. But it's a rare case in Buffy where the writers really really fumbled. I think a scene in, like Potential or First Date or Get it Done, where Dawn and Willow talk, Dawn brings up what Joyce said in Conversations ..., and Willow says something like, "I'm worried you might be right" ... Coupled with the growing distance between B and Giles, it might have at least sowed the seeds more clearly.
while i hate everyone turning on buffy, looking back, it does make sense not just because nobody agreed with buffy's plan but also because buffy has been steadily alienating every single person in that room for the whole duration of this season. kicking her out of her own house is a bit overboard though
....🙋🏼♂️ ☀️ 🌈
new moon rising😭
It doesn't make sense that they would all turn on her like that. Ok, I get that it's a plot device to ramp up the drama but even so. The potentials might be persuaded, but Giles, Willow, Xander? After all they've been through together? No, sorry, doesn't ring true.
Wrong title. This is _Empty Places._
Any in-fighting the group does is supporting The First because in-fighting is The First's biggest tool against the group. Whether it was telling Wood, as his mother, who murdered his mother or whether it was The First telling Dawn, as Joyce, Buffy won't choose her, which I think is what caused Dawn to say in this episode, "Then you can't stay here." Dawn's not choosing Buffy before Buffy doesn't choose her, thus playing even further into The First's hands. This moment goes against what many people defending The Scoobies say, which is the fact that if everyone wanted a new leader, due to Xander losing an eye, kicking Buffy out wasn't the right option. Buffy told the group she couldn't save everyone in war and has been warning Xander how dangerous slaying is since the second episode of the series ("Xander, this is deeply dangerous"). I disagree with said new leadership of Faith, as does Faith herself, but the group is so against Buffy, they don't listen to Faith. Kicking Buffy out creates in-fighting The Fist clearly wants, and Buffy's house (as of the beginning of this episode) is the only place in Sunnydale vampires don't have entrance to, so kicking her out (whether they assume she can handle herself or not) is a mistake.
Xander not only retcons everything good he says about Buffy during his earlier episode speech (the one that had Buffy crying happy tears) by kicking her out, but in the two hour pilot when Buffy says, "Xander, this is deeply dangerous." The fact that in S1 he dismisses this and thinks Buffy's thinking him, "less than a man," compared to what he's saying now shows a long term-ness of never really taking Buffy seriously in these type of situations. I criticize him (and everyone else) for not listening to all her (including the S7) speeches or any other moments like those. The writers stated in behind the scenes footage that Xander losing an eye is the reason behind the kicking Buffy out moment. There's a little more to it, but it would be spoiler-y past this episode.
The other argument I’ve seen fans against Buffy say is to argue the fact that Buffy leaves willingly. The defense I have there is that it is the difference between a person resigning and a person getting fired. Resigning, in this case is getting fired without the higher ups saying so. The argument of Buffy leaving on her own is Buffy "resigning" herself to the fact that she isn't The General anymore and doesn't want to in-fight, as The First wants. Its just another form of getting kicked aka "fired" from being The General because The Scoobies don't trust her leadership.
Anya was one of four people who resurrected Buffy (the others being Willow, Tara and Xander) and therefore allowed The First to create the S7 plot of killing the slayer line. She, Giles and possibly Willow knows this, so them blaming Buffy for anything happening, when the entirety of why is on their shoulders, is dumb.
It is also a joke to have Anya say Buffy didn't earn the role of slayer or general, considering everything Buffy has done for them. The list on that, could go on for 104 hours and 34 minutes (the length of the series to this point). And on top of that, Anya didn't earn her power either. She was given it so she could murder, torture, etc., which she did through the power of the wish.
Why did Giles call Buffy the general of the group if he was just going to undermine her at every decision he didn't like and toss her out when things went wrong? Buffy warned them all things like this would happen. Why weren't they listening?
Post S6 Willow has a lot of nerve calling Buffy on a lack of judgement.
Didn't the Scoobies (including Dawn) learn anything from when Joyce kicked Buffy out in S2? It's a good thing Buffy has grown emotionally since then. Too bad the group doesn't trust Buffy any more since then.
Buffy brought up certain points to Xander during their _Selfless_ fight about what it means to be The Slayer, so the fact that the group in this episode are throwing those moments in Buffy's face (those moments specifically being: cutting herself off, someone needing to draw a line, having no guide book to the job of a slayer [and there is a slayer guidebook/handbook, Giles just never gives it to her, so that one is on him], and fighting alone) shows, once again, The Scoobies haven't been listening to Buffy, even before the war with The First started about even the moments not involving The First and its war.
Buffy learns from her mistakes. I don't always feel Xander and Willow do if that is something they still don't understand about Buffy seven seasons later. Buffy has learned from Giles' "this isn't a joke" chastisement in _First Date,_ while none of the other Scoobies did, if they were recently going to The Bronze for fun. Giles himself seemed to revert, if he is urging the fun after the _First Date_ chastisement, or at least he has an agenda of his own that goes against what he said when he called Buffy the general upon first showing up in Sunnydale. The group go against everything Buffy learned in _First Date, I Never Kill a Boy on the First Date_ and _Reptile Boy_ when they kick Buffy out.
Buffy may or may not have a good idea in going back to the vineyard. Risky either way. Just like war always is. That is not the problem. The real problem is Xander's eye is a moment when the group finally realize Buffy has been right about the danger and are taking it out on her because she is the General. I get that The Scoobies and SIT's are scared, but none of what they do in kicking Buffy out does anything except exactly what The First wants.
The worst scene in the whole show. They could have made that conflict in a way that didnt feel so awkward and undeserved. Faith line of "I dont know if I can lead but the real question is: can you follow?" Is actually an amazing line and makes sense. But its like you said, it feels like we missed an episode. Its similar to Tara and willow first fight were Tara out of nowhere question if willow will stay a lesbian or if its just experimentation. Feels like a bullet point they had to do but didnt figure how to arrive at it
Not a fan of the episode. It's not like a dislike the tone, it just felt rushed. Everyone turning on Buffy so quickly, it just did not feel as well developed as the vast majority of Whedon's long term plot lines.
Turn on Buffy, fine, but the build-up felt like something from another show.
❤🧡💛💚💙💜🤎🖤🤍
Buffy was right the rest were garbage. The fact the bought her back from the DEAD to fight their battles and they have the audacity to kick her out of HER house 😂. Slice it which ever way Buffy is the leader and the rest fall in line.
Most controversial episode. Looking forward to you reacting to the last few episodes.
Yep, a doozy indeed :). _Excruciating_ to watch but... they're not wrong IMO. Buffy _hasn't_ kept them ALL safe, Potentials have died, Xander's maimed and she wants to go back in again, apparently with no new approach ? How many Potentials does she consider acceptable losses _this_ time ?
Buffy isn't wrong either, not in her _aim_ but she _is_ willing to throw their lives away by her _methods_ and when it's _your_ life it's not just collateral damage. To Buffy they're soldiers and she's their General but no one is just a piece to be played. So I get where they're coming from even if the way they did it is _so_ wrong and nasty and infuriating and... all the things :).
Plus, regardless of all that nuance, Rona can _absolutely_ just f*ck right off - "Ding dong, the witch is dead" !??? No. Just no. When _you've_ died twice literally saving the world THEN _maybe_ you get to say things like that. I'm really glad Dawn went for her in that moment both on an emotional level and because not doing so would've hurt the point being made in the scene.
(lots of fans use what happens next to try to claim that Buffy was right all along but to me they're missing a major element that'll hopefully be apparent)
This whole theme is why I can't really stand this season, except a few choice episodes. The idea that Buffy didn't earn her place as leader is *absurd*, the lack of support she gets from the Scoobies is gross and also a repeat story. Over and over again in this series Buffy doesn't get the trust she deserves, and here they don't even give her basic respect. This season seems to force a wedge between Buffy and her friends that isn't earned, and seems to glorify a bizarre codependent relationship with Spike. I think the dynamic between Buffy and Faith is good, and I can oddly only see the care Faith has for Buffy, while all her close friends who she earned the trust of time and time again just shit on her. It doesn't feel authentic to the characters or to the relationships over the last 7 years.
I disagree. Buffy was right and the rest of them were flat-out wrong and disgusting. She was trying to explain why they needed to go now but they cut her off and just attacked her and kicked her out of her own house. I hate them all in this episode. They were ungrateful and despicable. This is my least favorite episode of all.