Here's a drinking game: Take a shot every time Viziepop gets into a controversy(old and new, whether it be from something she did or through the stupidity of the haters/fandom)
I have a small side hustle where I make art, and I stay away from twitter and TikTok because of this. Even though people who've posted their work from me got a shit load of attention on there, I don't think it's worth it.
So, to summarize, there's no controversy whatsoever. They are paying on the higher end of the industry average for Hazbin Hotel (which has budget constraints) and more than double for the privately budgeted Helluva Boss. Seriously, was she literally Hitler in her previous life? I can't understand why all the vitriol for this specific creator.
Because people, aka twitter FREAKS, are all butthurt over her success as an indie animator/studio. They are jealous, and thus they need to find some way to ruin her or control/influence her creation. But they fail time and again, because they are nothing more than degenerate little trolls malding over one woman's awesome success as an animator.
@@snintendogI'm sorry but there's been waaaay more controversy than just with the 'trans mob' as you call it. Most of it came way before the more unhinged side of that camp got pissy. To point it at that one demographic is disingenuous at best, and dog whistling at worst. The reason she gets as much hate on twitter as she does is pretty straightforward. She's an LGBT content creator who's main work prior to HH/HB was Furry based... And she got successful Twitter hate those three things
People are really trying to stir up controversy anytime possible. I don’t care if the image is fake or not. I’m treating it like it’s real. As somebody who is working on an indie production himself, $35 per second of rough animation was the amount OFFERED to me by an animator who worked on Helluva Boss among other projects. They’re fishing for controversy right now! It’s unfair to expect an INDIE production to be able to pay exorbitant amounts of money. Which is why I admire that Vivzie’s payment for Helluva is so high. If I could, I would pay animators more. They deserve it. But they’re really trying to stir up this controversy without any idea how animation is made.
@@woulf3168per second of animation. That takes about an hour or more. And since it's a big project, that takes even longer. It's alright if you pace yourself
so let me get this straight. Viv actively CHOOSES to pay her workers almost DOUBLE the average rate of animation when she has the ability to, and yet shes STILL somehow the bad guy? god twitter is such a cesspool.
You'll find the same stuff on facebook, discord, youtube... Humanity is the cesspool. X is just everyone's punching bag because people don't know how to use the block and mute buttons. What's worse is that you get shat on for using the block and mute buttons. XD
It's not double the average rate, it's less than half of the average rates for the areas she's recruiting from. The Animation Guild's minimum pay rates are not exactly a secret.
Honestly the fact that Vizie and her team are still working on these series despite all these fake, petty, BS controversies getting thrown at them is a testament of their commitment to their craft.
Im personally proud of both Vivzie and the team not replying or saying anything about these stupid tweets by people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about. Im EXTREMELY proud of them, ik its a difficult thing to do but its a massive step in the right direction. ❤
Exactly! It feels like Vivzie is finally stepping back from joining in on controversial drama (at least the big ones, idk if she's involved in any bickering lately) and the team is following in her footsteps. It's easier for the team to just ignore it, knowing they're making more than industry standard.
All we've really been shown here is that Spindlehorse pays their artists, and is willing to negotiate their pay rates. This isn't really the 'gotcha' the hatedom thinks it is...
@@spectre2803 Any person who would set up fake controversies like this to damage an upcoming indie project are a worse person than Viv is. These people know twitter is stupid enough to believe that one person draws an entire frame and background together from scratch alone and does all the cleaning themself, and all that is paid at just less than $2 a frame, which is completely untrue
Okay honestly though, am I the only one that read the tweet and thought they meant people were getting paid $35 a second of work time? I was like man these animators are making bank! The minimum wage is half that much an hour in most places 😂
I mean, as long as they paid them an amount they agreed to work for, with no misleading, it's the person's choice If no one was willing to work for this price, the show wouldn't be made
You can offer slave wages. That's fine. If someone needs the money then they need the money. If they don't need the money they can find a better paying job. If someone offers up drawings on Fiverr for $5 a drawing, and people commission them and it takes them half to do the drawing, yeah they are paying themselves slave labor. Should they get arrested for that? Keep in mind that Fiverr takes a cut, and they won't be able to crank out 2 drawings an hour. Some people live in New York and they can't really survive on these kinds of wages, and other people live in a cheaper part of the country with room mates, and blow a bunch of money on gacha pulls. $35 a second of animation work doesn't mean the same thing to everyone ESPECIALLY if it can be done remotely.
Per-second rates are inherently misleading because they don't factor in almost mandatory revisions or how long it's actually going to take. Even with the higher HB rate, it's easy to dip below minimum wage on contracts like that.
It's because these people don't actually care. They don't actually care if animators are being paid well or not, all they care about is stirring trouble and drama. It's so much easier to attack something that's popularly hated and get free Internet credit without actually putting in real effort to help people
At this point Viv could straight up physically abuse one of her animators and I just wouldn't believe it, these freaking losers that lie and lie and lie for the sake of stirring up controversy make it so much harder for people actually suffering in the entertainment industry, they freaking disgust me!
Wait, for rough animation, that's 12 rough drawings for $35 (they animate 24fps but on twos). That's basically $3 a sketch, and that's *starting* and *negotiatable*. Being an artist myself, $3 for a quick sketch isn't a bad starting point and considering they have industry artists like Gregzilla working on it and people they pulled over from Hazbin Hotel, I don't think it's worse than the industry standard. That's also not taking into account that base complexity could be the characters just- standing still and talking, and people are trying to compare these to *full-time* animators. If you follow any of the artists who work on the show like Gregzilla and Kitten Sneeze, you know for a fact that they don't work full time on the show, they work on maybe 2 or 3 shots per episode and that's it. These are not full time employees, not only do they not work every day, but they also don't work every hour, and they should not be even remotely compared to them. Not a single part of these posts show any amount of knowledge about the production of show.
@@vortexvibes5944 Not really, this is rough animation, not the full finished product. They are essentially sketching the individual poses, that is then passed on to the cleanup crew who properly lines it. Had it been for the full frame lined, colored, shaded, tweened in some cases and given proper lighting and effects, that would be completely unreasonable. That isn't the case, though, and it seems disingenuous for people to be acting like it is.
Any body notice how quiet Viv is? And your complaining about her being terminally online. I understand why she's being quiet. And only focusing on positive stuff. Good for her at least, no arguing with people and this time let her allies take care of stuff. She earned that break.
@@RandomVivziepopEditz don't let Chai the Chomo foot steps ruin everything. He's a Zoo/Lolicow whos wasting his life on hating Viv. There's no reason to take ANYTHING he says seriously since he got outed for Zoophilia and Shotacon.
For reference to non animation people - 1 second of animation is 24 frames - however most animations are drawn on 2’s meaning on average it’s 12 drawings per second of animation- the post in question also states it’s “rough animation “ which can be pretty damn rough depending on the studio. Meaning it’s not an hours long commission for one drawing. Also how can we verify this is real??
It varies between production, but the VAST majority of standard (Western) 2D animation is done on 2s (24fps), with 1s for certain shots (for example if you look at my own work I animate mainly on 2s but use 1s for smear frames). I don't know why you think most animations are done on 1s? @@alexmfs
This whole drama infuriates me. Well paid animators on Helluva and Hazbin result in Vivienne getting called abusive and exploitative, but there’s little to no comment on the exploitation of animators via outsourced animation under big corporate umbrellas, such as Disney and Warner Bros. (Hence why there’s a planned animators’ and artists’ strike this year). People will go to any length to believe anything bad faith about these projects just to tear them down. It is beyond exhausting, and my condolences go out to everyone who works on these shows. I cannot imagine dealing with accusations like this on the regular.
If anyone was curious: assuming it takes about an hour per second, if a cleanup artist was to work a 40 hour workweek with 4 weeks vacation on $35 per second, they would make about $67k per year, over twice the industry average. Idk how long it takes to do cleanup, but "slave wages" seems a pretty strong phrase. It's especially insulting when you consider the truly horrifying wages of people working on shows for companies like Netflix that outsource their animation. Go get mad at them. Also also, that discord message is incredibly understanding. They're literally like "hey, we know this is less than our usual rate, so if you don't want to take the job that's totally fine and you can still do other projects with us." Like, what else do you want from them.
Random Twitter User: "They don't get paid enough" The Animator Whose Been Doing this for 15 Years: "So this is good pay, sometimes double the average" Yeah, I'll totally take Twitter's word on this one lmao
People aren't listening to other animators who are saying it's too low, actually. The amount of time it takes with complex characters renders "$35 per second" as something that can easily go under minimum wage before you factor in equipment costs and double taxes. Mind you, recruitment is primarily out of the US, Canada, and the EU.
I swear to GOD the closer Hazbin gets to its release date the more both the hatedom and the fandom are causing unnecessary stupid pointless drama. Its getting EXHAUSTING waking up and seeing a NEW controversy surrounding Vivzie, Hazbin or Helluva.
I just hope that once Hazbin Hotel comes out, there won't be any toxic fandom. Plus I know how Vivziepop and her crew work really hard on the animation and everything else.😬
@e92312 You don't have much of an imagination then. Not many shows open their first episode with a pre-installed fanbase. it will count in the show's favor.
@e92312 Trust me, I am a thirteen year old who is practically counting the days till season one releases, and have friends who have watched it with me too. New people have come to it, and there is still old people that have stayed.
@e92312have you not seen the thousands of people who are so excited for the shows release online? You are heavily overestimating the gap in maturity maturity (I think thats what your argument is about) between a 14 year old and a 17-18 year old
Oh my sweet summer child. Every fandom has its toxic elements and thinking there can be one without it is sheer lunacy. I'd find your first sentence funny if it wasn’t so sad.
People are just finding any way to hate on vivzie at this point. It’s not even funny because this cannot be healthy. The amount of obsession these people have with vivziepop and making her look bad is ridiculous and honestly just pathetic.
I could be totally wrong but by the sounds of it the pay isn't anything out of the ordinary and if it was it would be the studio's fault because of the set budget and schedule and out of Viv's control
Wait so twitter is getting mad at Vivziepop for going on "lavish vacations" while her animators are "underpaid" even though her animators are paid more than average, and she's not even in charge of the actually budget of the show, AND when Vivzie does have control over the budget, she pays her animators a much higher rate. In trying to make Vivziepop look like a bad boss, they've just made her look better...
Gotta love how those outraged by this are ignoring what Adam's message actually says XD. Not only is this a temp job, but it was fully acknowledged in the job offer that this temp job pays less than usual because of a set budget. Even so, the job offer still left open room for negotiation and made it clear that the cleanup artist would have other resources and assistance. And if the cleanup artist decided not to take the assignment, it looked like their job would continue with Helluva Boss in a few months, and would return to a higher rate
@@D1EN0 And too many aren't taking into account that she pays higher on the show she has full control of (Helluva), so is being limited by the studio (who she can't control) on Hazbin. It's not even like 'the average' rate' is what she _wants_ to pay.
This and the fact they probably see her as an easy target, which I'm not denying she is- But it really does suck, Viv doesn't deserve it.@@HaughtyToast
I did some digging: Cleanup is just tracing the animators’ work to make cleaner outlines that can be coloured in later right?? And per second??? If you do the math that’s not too bad-
I'm not sure about other social media, but I heard Discord and Twitter conversations can be easy to fake or take out of context. If you want their animators to be paid more, then please consider buying merch from Vivziepop.
If she sold more merch of that pig from the end of the Addict MV, I definitely would. Also, got no money to buy the merch myself, but again, I totally would if I did.
Thank you for the run down! It's really hard for me to trust anything out of twitter, or even just any info surrounding Viv because of how out of context things are taken like you said. So I really appreciate your straight to the facts run down on things, highlighting all sides of what's happening. You're the only channel I trust right now with any news on Viv and Hazbin because even if you're biased, you don't let bias affect what you post
The thumbnail for this video really captures how I feel about this 😂 like... come on. Thats some good pay for an animator rigbt there! Better then what I make thats for sure
5:30 “…and the fact that most twitter users lack critical thinking skills…” single best line in the video (if i can improve upon this format of quoting let me know this is my first time doing so)
Ok so each employee gets paid $35 per second of animation right? Ok let's break this down... One episode = 24 minutes = 1440 seconds of animation (roughly). 1440 x $35 = $50,000 per employee per episode. It generally takes about a month to complete one episode which comes out to $403,200 for roughly 8 months work, if that. I am going to say this as nicely as I can... THAT'S NOT SLAVE WAGES!!! Good God, this is why no one took the SAG strike seriously!
I feel so bad for this team. Like... they're put their heart into their project. I don't want to people harass them to the point where they don't want to make content anymore because of some people who can't live their life if they not cancelling someone. The show has flaws for sure that annoy me to, but here's the thing: I don't do animation, and I could not do a pilot that has over 93 million views.
Honestly, I'm so glad for your videos breaking down every vivzie "controversy" and why it's bullshit. There have been so many of them that they've genuinely gotten hard to keep track of.
Besides the explainable stuff, theres three things I also find kinda weird about the message. 1. The message is in English, yet the date is in Spanish. Not the first time I've seen this, so whatever. 2. The person is working as a cleanup artist, yet Adam gives the wage of Rough Artist? 3. When Vivzie would hire, wouldn't she give an E-mail to contact? Do they E-mail their discord? Also, seems kinda risky to rely on discord when not everyone has it. Could probably be easily explained, but I just saw them out of ordinary.
It's just actually baffaling how many controversies this woman has. Don't get me wrong, people have genuine reasons to dislike her, and she has done shady shit, but there are so many people who do 4x what Vivzie pop does yet no one cares. I mean, it's just funny. People are working themselves to DEATH trying to find SOMETHING to tear her down, I don't understand why. If you don't like her, just stop watching her content, stop engaging with her fandom, you don't need a reason to just not like someone, just post your hate tweet and go, no need to make up stuff.
I feel like with all this drama there’s going to be a “boy who cried wolf” situation, She’s going to do something absolutely abysmal and nobody will think she did it because of all the fake stuff. The only really “bad” things she’s done is be kind’ve a jerk and have a mostly horrible fan base and she shouldn’t be held accountable for the second “bad” thing because it isn’t really her fault that her fan base is full of edgy 10 year olds thinking they’re tough shit and that they’re “Mature” for watching a adult show. Good creators can have horrible fan bases for example like DOOM, Murder Drones, Undertale, and a lot of other things. Hopefully Vivzepop and her fan base and her haters, and critics can keep their mouth shut so we don’t have to see a bunch of bullshit fabricated out of nowhere.
I feel really bad for Vivz. All she wanted to do was to create a show - and she did it, it's actually super impressive and an incredible achievement - and people are just shitting on her all the time for no reason. I don't follow these dramas too closely because that would drive me mad but, is she doing something wrong ? Why is everyone so against her ?
Considering that my first ever job paid 5 bucks an hour, I would KILL for about 35 bucks an hour on a job I will actually enjoy (assuming the person takes an hour to finish 1 second of cleanup). All I'm seeing from this is that Viv is actually paying more than corporate studios are if A24 is paying 35 per second and she is paying 60 per second
I've had my legitimate complaints about the show itself and was a casual fan who thought there was a bit more good than bad, but the fact that the team puts up with this kind of nonsense regularly and keeps on going in spite of it has made me a super fan. You just have to admire their work ethic.
That's what I was thinking. Part of my course in uni that I got a diploma in included animation. The fact that it's that per frame and the average wage in the industry it's pretty good. Everyone is way to use to seeing 20$ an hour something. There's always something Viv haters are going to try to drag her and her crew down. Plus, like you said hazbin is bento box and Amazon, so they will have different wages. The film and animation industry is different then just flipping burgers for a job.
I had one twitter user reply to a comment I made that questioned the timing of this drop that said it was likely because of NDAs....Gotta love people who don't realize that NDAs do not, and CANNOT cover discussing wages. Its absolutely illegal for an employer in the US to prevent you from discussing your wages, be it with people outside of work or with your coworkers (especially with your coworkers). The only people who can't discuss your wages or others wages is HR/Payroll and that is just because those positions have access to privileged info. I think the whole thing is stupid, and really shows the utter lack of critical thinking and reading comprehension.
The fact the person criticising this didn't say what they view a reasonable wage as speaks volumes. It sounds like it is an incredibly obscure payment method given some projects a second of rough draft might take hours others it could take minutes (just making those up I'm not in animation) so it's difficult. I feel the message was quite professional.
This is getting VERY tiring. Its like there's a controversy every other week on Viv. If she's soooooo evil as all these people keep claiming, why don't they form a union, or strike, or both. Even if a contract says you can't union, the contract cannot stop nearly 0 workers in the office. But wait, its almost like a bunch of these controversies don't hold weight, or have been interpreted wrong! The only things that could be a big problem are the besti drawings from her youth (which i don't think she draws anymore) and the Alastor drama, which imo if its a religion/mythology, do whatever you want as long as you're not rude to the people practicing them. Unless the practicers were rude to you first (looking at you, good chunk of Christians)
So basically, it's a bunch of people who really don't know much about the industry or its terms getting mad and screaming over the internet without thinking or doing actual research? Yep, sounds like the internet summed up to me lol.
Industry Animator here, their rates suck. And none of it is liveable wages. Not anywhere in the US. This has been an on going problem for non-union work. Also I know BentoBox underpays their own inhouse studio works and contract workers. They pay 16-18$ an hour for ppl who are suppose to have degrees or years of professional experience in their East Coast/Altanta studio. That is minimum walmart wages for people who cannot get by without food stamps or government assistance. Is that the expectation for people with degrees and years of experience to be valued at? Everyone should be paid a fair liveable wage and especially so for professional industry work. Just cause some animators have worked for years with bad wages does not mean that should be acceptable, but means they have not been properly paid for years and need to be. If you want to avoid a studio Mappa situation, we need to be paying and valuing these jobs more, all over the world. Only way to do that is to unionize and not let people get exploited to be underpaid by studios. These big studios need to start paying up. And the indie studios need to start smaller with either fewer people or get more funding through kickstarter if they do wanna keep making more projects, rather than trying to get professional work with little pay. It is unfeasible, to expect the artists to eat the cost by not being paid enough to live properly with fair wages.
So Viv literally pays her animators double the average wages and people are saying she 'Doesn't pay her animators'??? These people need to get a life mahn. Also yeah, most of the people commenting on Twitter clearly don't know anything about how the animation pipeline works. And all of this not even to mention the fact that Viv literally has no control over how much she can pay the Hazbin animators!! If you're going to come after anyone here, maybe come after A24?? (Which I think is still stupid. Like seriously don't do that A24 isn't doing anything wrong either, and the animation on Hazbin is much less intensive than on Helluva) Also, the person pointing out how shady it was that the tweet came out right after that hiring post from Viv is probably onto something. If you look at when the discord message was sent, it was sent 2 years ago, in 2022. Ain't it sus that Viv posts about how she's hiring new animators, only for a discord message from Adam from *2 years ago* to get leaked and "expose" the "slave wages"?? Yeah I smell a little BS. For all we know Hazbin could've upped their rates by now anyways. It's been like a year and a half.
I remember seeing this! I was like 'hey it says rough animation. that's like sketches, right?' AND NO ONE EVEN WAS LIKE 'oh yeah maybe' it was just NO NO NO ITS THE FULL THING like why
I think for TV shows on prime you don't have to pay but you do have to watch ads. But if you wanna watch a movie or watch it without ads you have to pay (I THINK)
I was waiting for you to cover this. My friend sent it to me with the addage that "All my friends in the industry say this is actual slave wages, like below minimum wage per hour." So thank you for clarifying some things. I appreciate it greatly.
Than you just love to gobble up misinfo and there's no helping you. Twitter's on the the door to your left. Bunch of bastards just like you waiting for ya.
I feel like this is another case where Viv is doing something that is an industry standard or industry wide problem and people latch on to it as if she's the only person doing it. That and they don't know how animation works if they think that every frame is always a 100% new drawing done by one person. Like, if they were getting paid ~$3 a frame and one person was handling the background, line art, and color for any given frame, they would all quit. Viv just wouldn't have anyone working for her because those rates would be too low to afford basic necessities. This isn't like actual examples of underpayment where the workers have no other reasonable job options and are forced to stay at a bad job. These people are at a skill level where they can reasonably get a different animation related job or simply continue doing what they were doing before getting the job offer.
As a stubborn man once said: “Slander is spoken. In print, it’s libel.” Can we _please_ go even _two weeks_ without a “new” Spindlehorse/VivziePop controversy taking over all of Twitter? I’d like that a lot, thanks, gettin reeeeaaal sick of feeling like I need to hide the fact that I watch her stuff for fear that people I like will disown me for ignorance.
conversy aside its really intresting to get this insight. ive been trying to produce my own series for a while and do what i can to give fair wages out of my own pocket to everyone on staff, it was super hard orginally finding info about how the indie side of the industry works so hearing about these rates for the rough animation stage really does just help further in learning about ways i can improve the qaulity of funding for my own team . thank you for going over this stuff
The fact that Adam’s screenshot clearly says that the reason the pay is 35/s (the higher end of an industry average) is because of a set budget by their client, while their own budget is almost double that, makes this entire debacle only about the lack of reading comprehension of all of Vivzie and Spindlehorse haters. Why are they mad at Spindlehorse and NOT A24/Bento for paying them so “cheap”, if they really want to throw a fit about this? Nevermind the fact that rate is an industry average 🤦
me when i'm excited for Hazbin Hotel season 1 to release: man! i'm sure nothing bad would happen! :D Ayy Lmao: *releases pay controversy of Vivziepop Hazbin Hotel video* Hazbin Hotel community: *started chaos* Me: ...............alright. I guess i was wrong.
i swear its probably because vivzie is so bad at handling criticism that she got into the same situation that dream is in where every few weeks or so a new controversy would appear because people see how easy it is to do it with those people
Just looking at the tweet when I just woke up this morning was literally a bunch of nonsense that I feel like this user tweeted this garbage on purpose with no literal proof or doesn't know how the work of animation works. And of course, the tweet had to go viral for all the wrong reasons. These constant controversies is really exhausting with how the haters/antis are so desperate to attack Vivziepop for something that she isn't doing. I guess we as the enjoyers of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss don't deserve nice things.
Imma be real, I don't even think that original screenshot is real. The original poster is notorious for faking evidence against Vivziepop (and has apparently said some very disgusting things on Tumblr regarding a "sexual" relationship between the HTDYD character Hiccup and his pet dragon, Toothless 😬) Also Discord messages are like STUPIDLY easy to fake becahse if hoe Discord's display works. As you said, the fact we're not shown the messages before or after the original is very suspicious. Furthermore, why would a message like that even be sent through a texting/gaming app like discord? That's the kind of message that would be in an email. Very suspicious.
literally people apparently doesnt like her because she is living their dreams and having a show actually be made, along with her Helluva boss series on youtube, to be a real dream for her made true. Like people trying to find ways to cancel this chick is absurd and should really stop because she became successful off of her and everyone else's hard work on the show to make it what it is today. Everything she has pumped out for Helluva boss is amazing, so for Hazbin Hotel, which started out as a pilot episode and received MILLIONS OF VIEWS in a matter of hours to days and exceed even her expectations and to become a TWO SEASON SHOW is amazing. for the haters on her, for the haters on the show, kiss her ass!! BOW TO THIS WOMAN AND HER PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS SHOW AND HER OTHER SERIES!!! She achieved something that MOST content creators try to go for, making a show with more than one season, getting notoriety from Amazon and what not for the show to get a series, etc. Respect the lady and her crew for everything she did. Like its annoying to see her getting targeted over something so FUCKING DUMB.
I feel its also worth noting that in the replies, OP is encoraging a user to pirate the show which... im no legal expert but that, to me, sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen
Here's a drinking game: Take a shot every time Viziepop gets into a controversy(old and new, whether it be from something she did or through the stupidity of the haters/fandom)
I would get alcohol poisoning and die
That's very dangerous
Am alrrrreedyydd drunnndk
@ExcaliberGod Hey, look on the bright side, you get a chance to join the Hazbin cast
@@shylar763Indeed, that's a game that has a Surgeon General's Warning
Ain’t no harsher truth than “most Twitter users lack critical thinking skills”.
I have a small side hustle where I make art, and I stay away from twitter and TikTok because of this. Even though people who've posted their work from me got a shit load of attention on there, I don't think it's worth it.
I read this comment right as the video said it, that was so wack lol.
Most human beings in general lack critical thinking skills
Until you realize that "most people lack critical thinking skills." is more accurate.
@@makaisenki Yeah. Twitter is just the easiest place to show that.
That fact it’s becoming “When” not “If” an Viziepop controversy pops up is ridiculous
Nah, more that it's been a matter of "when" not "if" the latest controversy will be proven as utter bad-faith BS.
No publicity is bad. More ppl will tune in on Jan. 19th to see what’s the hype.
the “when” is every week or two 💀
@@Nanette-Book-Lover I mean all the JK Rowling controversies didn't stop Harry Potter from doing really well so yeah...
So, to summarize, there's no controversy whatsoever. They are paying on the higher end of the industry average for Hazbin Hotel (which has budget constraints) and more than double for the privately budgeted Helluva Boss.
Seriously, was she literally Hitler in her previous life? I can't understand why all the vitriol for this specific creator.
Because people, aka twitter FREAKS, are all butthurt over her success as an indie animator/studio. They are jealous, and thus they need to find some way to ruin her or control/influence her creation. But they fail time and again, because they are nothing more than degenerate little trolls malding over one woman's awesome success as an animator.
she made the Trans mob mad. Thats all it takes. Ban the people who fly that flag and the harassment goes away.
Because she was once in their position, just a regular person with ocs and she actually made it in the industry through hard work and they’re jealous.
@@snintendogI'm sorry but there's been waaaay more controversy than just with the 'trans mob' as you call it. Most of it came way before the more unhinged side of that camp got pissy.
To point it at that one demographic is disingenuous at best, and dog whistling at worst.
The reason she gets as much hate on twitter as she does is pretty straightforward. She's an LGBT content creator who's main work prior to HH/HB was Furry based... And she got successful
Twitter hate those three things
@@snintendogahh yes, “Trans people bad” , perfect explanation./s
Can’t go two seconds without vivzie drama
Edit: Damn thanks for the likes
Frr
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Not even 0.001 KiloSecond
No we cannot apparently. This is why this fandom scares me sometimes
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People are really trying to stir up controversy anytime possible. I don’t care if the image is fake or not. I’m treating it like it’s real. As somebody who is working on an indie production himself, $35 per second of rough animation was the amount OFFERED to me by an animator who worked on Helluva Boss among other projects. They’re fishing for controversy right now! It’s unfair to expect an INDIE production to be able to pay exorbitant amounts of money. Which is why I admire that Vivzie’s payment for Helluva is so high. If I could, I would pay animators more. They deserve it. But they’re really trying to stir up this controversy without any idea how animation is made.
Am I the only one who thinks 35 per second is good? 😭 some people are getting paid 35 an hr and later on helluva they’ll be paid 65 A SECOND anyway??
Oh it’s per second of animation but still I think that’s good? Especially since it’s a average pay for something like this
I did some calculations and don’t know how good they are and the animators make more money in 15 minutes then what I get in a hole month…
@@woulf3168per second of animation. That takes about an hour or more. And since it's a big project, that takes even longer. It's alright if you pace yourself
In the end, 35$ for one day of hard work is not bad at all.
The creator of monkey wrench even said that the $35 pay is average for animation like that😩
The workers get paid more on Hella boss side.
HH had more legal Binding contracts, to go by, but still is awesome how they get paid more on HB
@@x-dragonhunter2085 can you rephrase this comment I don’t understand it
that $35 from what i hear is actually on the higher side of that average. so they could be getting paid less and it still be within "average range".
@@x-dragonhunter2085i had a stroke reading that
where? because I don’t see what your talking about.
so let me get this straight. Viv actively CHOOSES to pay her workers almost DOUBLE the average rate of animation when she has the ability to, and yet shes STILL somehow the bad guy?
god twitter is such a cesspool.
May as well delete the fucking thing.
You'll find the same stuff on facebook, discord, youtube...
Humanity is the cesspool. X is just everyone's punching bag because people don't know how to use the block and mute buttons.
What's worse is that you get shat on for using the block and mute buttons. XD
It's not double the average rate, it's less than half of the average rates for the areas she's recruiting from. The Animation Guild's minimum pay rates are not exactly a secret.
Its less than half
No surprise since these are the same people who gave Mr.Beast crap for curing people's blindness.
"Twititer users tend to lack critical thinking" Ayy Lmao be spitting facts
Good thing I don't use Twitter.
@@nickcooper7714don't ever even visit the site if you have an anxiety disorder
@@ZentaBon I believe you mean to say: Don't ever visit the site.
@@jyjaeskz yeah. If you don't have an anxiety disorder, you will after trying to take that site seriously.
Honestly the fact that Vizie and her team are still working on these series despite all these fake, petty, BS controversies getting thrown at them is a testament of their commitment to their craft.
And it's a sign of resilience
And patience
Im personally proud of both Vivzie and the team not replying or saying anything about these stupid tweets by people who obviously have no idea what they are talking about. Im EXTREMELY proud of them, ik its a difficult thing to do but its a massive step in the right direction. ❤
For once
Exactly! It feels like Vivzie is finally stepping back from joining in on controversial drama (at least the big ones, idk if she's involved in any bickering lately) and the team is following in her footsteps. It's easier for the team to just ignore it, knowing they're making more than industry standard.
How much do you want to bet this will cause another controversy where morons will say Vivzie refuses to see criticism?
@@lightyearpig12 Happened the last controversy, people will always find a reason to complain. It's twitter.
Honestly, i hope to god she just turns twitter off and lets them seethe.
All we've really been shown here is that Spindlehorse pays their artists, and is willing to negotiate their pay rates. This isn't really the 'gotcha' the hatedom thinks it is...
Just because Viv isn’t a financial sorceress doesn’t make her a bad person
No, but blocking everyone, including friendly large, fellow creators for the slightest critiques on you or your show does
@@spectre2803Idk if that makes her a bad person. Insecure and socially awkward, maybe, but not bad.
@@spectre2803 Any person who would set up fake controversies like this to damage an upcoming indie project are a worse person than Viv is. These people know twitter is stupid enough to believe that one person draws an entire frame and background together from scratch alone and does all the cleaning themself, and all that is paid at just less than $2 a frame, which is completely untrue
@@spectre2803 says you
@@spectre2803her not wanting to deal with people’s bs makes her a bad person?
How to get sued for defamation 101:
Okay honestly though, am I the only one that read the tweet and thought they meant people were getting paid $35 a second of work time? I was like man these animators are making bank! The minimum wage is half that much an hour in most places 😂
HAHA FR I was like “wait why are we complaining?” 😭
for a second i thought that and then I put 2 and 2 together lol 😂
I thought so too and In my mind I was thinking "they are literally get $2,100 a minute why tf are they complaining"😂
Yeah same! I was so confused until I realized they meant animation seconds 😅
@@lyracatiyu8361 That’s still more than what you’d normally get per hour in any other workplace.
You know a studio is doing something right when people are DESPERATE to fabricate a controversy about them. Ignorance is always the loudest.
I mean, as long as they paid them an amount they agreed to work for, with no misleading, it's the person's choice
If no one was willing to work for this price, the show wouldn't be made
Ita upper wnd of average pay this is good pay for animation work
Animation is notoriously under pay if its i. The us it more then most anime/foreign shows 🤔
You can offer slave wages. That's fine. If someone needs the money then they need the money. If they don't need the money they can find a better paying job.
If someone offers up drawings on Fiverr for $5 a drawing, and people commission them and it takes them half to do the drawing, yeah they are paying themselves slave labor. Should they get arrested for that? Keep in mind that Fiverr takes a cut, and they won't be able to crank out 2 drawings an hour. Some people live in New York and they can't really survive on these kinds of wages, and other people live in a cheaper part of the country with room mates, and blow a bunch of money on gacha pulls.
$35 a second of animation work doesn't mean the same thing to everyone ESPECIALLY if it can be done remotely.
Per-second rates are inherently misleading because they don't factor in almost mandatory revisions or how long it's actually going to take. Even with the higher HB rate, it's easy to dip below minimum wage on contracts like that.
@@AlexMint nope this is rix uo only not making work their job is pure fixed frame
why can't people focus on actual issues in the animation industry
It's because these people don't actually care. They don't actually care if animators are being paid well or not, all they care about is stirring trouble and drama. It's so much easier to attack something that's popularly hated and get free Internet credit without actually putting in real effort to help people
Bc they just want a reason to hate viv
Cause that requires effort they'd rather use to put down others.
“Most twitter users lack critical thinking skills” is the funnest thing I have heard all day
Let alone when leftists, when infamous for that?
At this point Viv could straight up physically abuse one of her animators and I just wouldn't believe it, these freaking losers that lie and lie and lie for the sake of stirring up controversy make it so much harder for people actually suffering in the entertainment industry, they freaking disgust me!
People forgot about "the boy who cried wolf" story 💀💀💀💀
Bruh💀💀 tf?? Pls calm down lmfao
@@calebwilson.27 Is my frustration misplaced?
How do you know they are lying?
@@williamparker7025 Did you watch the video?
Wait, for rough animation, that's 12 rough drawings for $35 (they animate 24fps but on twos). That's basically $3 a sketch, and that's *starting* and *negotiatable*. Being an artist myself, $3 for a quick sketch isn't a bad starting point and considering they have industry artists like Gregzilla working on it and people they pulled over from Hazbin Hotel, I don't think it's worse than the industry standard.
That's also not taking into account that base complexity could be the characters just- standing still and talking, and people are trying to compare these to *full-time* animators. If you follow any of the artists who work on the show like Gregzilla and Kitten Sneeze, you know for a fact that they don't work full time on the show, they work on maybe 2 or 3 shots per episode and that's it. These are not full time employees, not only do they not work every day, but they also don't work every hour, and they should not be even remotely compared to them.
Not a single part of these posts show any amount of knowledge about the production of show.
A quick sketch is different from animation frames
@@vortexvibes5944 Not really, this is rough animation, not the full finished product. They are essentially sketching the individual poses, that is then passed on to the cleanup crew who properly lines it. Had it been for the full frame lined, colored, shaded, tweened in some cases and given proper lighting and effects, that would be completely unreasonable. That isn't the case, though, and it seems disingenuous for people to be acting like it is.
Any body notice how quiet Viv is? And your complaining about her being terminally online.
I understand why she's being quiet. And only focusing on positive stuff.
Good for her at least, no arguing with people and this time let her allies take care of stuff. She earned that break.
I'm glad that she's not responding and looking on the positive side
@@RandomVivziepopEditz yup. the better choice for her. Just focus on that and promoting stuff on Instagram.
@@RandomVivziepopEditz don't let Chai the Chomo foot steps ruin everything. He's a Zoo/Lolicow whos wasting his life on hating Viv.
There's no reason to take ANYTHING he says seriously since he got outed for Zoophilia and Shotacon.
I hope she stays quiet. I hope she has a social media manager to run her Twitter and she stays away from the drama. It will do her so much good.
@@tjones7341 I mean she'll ocassionally act up from time to time as it's few and far between tho right now nothing serious has happened as of yet
For reference to non animation people - 1 second of animation is 24 frames - however most animations are drawn on 2’s meaning on average it’s 12 drawings per second of animation- the post in question also states it’s “rough animation “ which can be pretty damn rough depending on the studio. Meaning it’s not an hours long commission for one drawing. Also how can we verify this is real??
Most animations aren't drawn on twos. Most animations are done on ones. I don't know why you think most animations are done on twos.
Yeah exactly. Plus if shots involve characters standing mostly still and just talking, that'll of course make work even less intensive.
@@alexmfs googled: "animation ones or twos standard" and wikipedia, reddit and quora say its twos most of the time
It varies between production, but the VAST majority of standard (Western) 2D animation is done on 2s (24fps), with 1s for certain shots (for example if you look at my own work I animate mainly on 2s but use 1s for smear frames). I don't know why you think most animations are done on 1s? @@alexmfs
@@alexmfs They are done on 2' for shows. It's better for time and budget :/
This whole drama infuriates me. Well paid animators on Helluva and Hazbin result in Vivienne getting called abusive and exploitative, but there’s little to no comment on the exploitation of animators via outsourced animation under big corporate umbrellas, such as Disney and Warner Bros. (Hence why there’s a planned animators’ and artists’ strike this year). People will go to any length to believe anything bad faith about these projects just to tear them down. It is beyond exhausting, and my condolences go out to everyone who works on these shows. I cannot imagine dealing with accusations like this on the regular.
If anyone was curious: assuming it takes about an hour per second, if a cleanup artist was to work a 40 hour workweek with 4 weeks vacation on $35 per second, they would make about $67k per year, over twice the industry average. Idk how long it takes to do cleanup, but "slave wages" seems a pretty strong phrase.
It's especially insulting when you consider the truly horrifying wages of people working on shows for companies like Netflix that outsource their animation. Go get mad at them.
Also also, that discord message is incredibly understanding. They're literally like "hey, we know this is less than our usual rate, so if you don't want to take the job that's totally fine and you can still do other projects with us." Like, what else do you want from them.
Random Twitter User: "They don't get paid enough"
The Animator Whose Been Doing this for 15 Years: "So this is good pay, sometimes double the average"
Yeah, I'll totally take Twitter's word on this one lmao
People aren't listening to other animators who are saying it's too low, actually. The amount of time it takes with complex characters renders "$35 per second" as something that can easily go under minimum wage before you factor in equipment costs and double taxes. Mind you, recruitment is primarily out of the US, Canada, and the EU.
twitter is a shithole lol, what did you expect from twt users 💀
I swear to GOD the closer Hazbin gets to its release date the more both the hatedom and the fandom are causing unnecessary stupid pointless drama. Its getting EXHAUSTING waking up and seeing a NEW controversy surrounding Vivzie, Hazbin or Helluva.
The fact people were taking google screenshots from the show and saying that whole frame was done on that pay is fucking hilarious.
Yeah... I love it when people look at things they do not understand and feel they have the comprehension to complain about it. :') /sarcasm
I just hope that once Hazbin Hotel comes out, there won't be any toxic fandom. Plus I know how Vivziepop and her crew work really hard on the animation and everything else.😬
@e92312 You don't have much of an imagination then. Not many shows open their first episode with a pre-installed fanbase. it will count in the show's favor.
@e92312 Trust me, I am a thirteen year old who is practically counting the days till season one releases, and have friends who have watched it with me too. New people have come to it, and there is still old people that have stayed.
@e92312have you not seen the thousands of people who are so excited for the shows release online? You are heavily overestimating the gap in maturity maturity (I think thats what your argument is about) between a 14 year old and a 17-18 year old
Oh my sweet summer child. Every fandom has its toxic elements and thinking there can be one without it is sheer lunacy.
I'd find your first sentence funny if it wasn’t so sad.
@e92312 ....Those came out this year?
People are just finding any way to hate on vivzie at this point. It’s not even funny because this cannot be healthy. The amount of obsession these people have with vivziepop and making her look bad is ridiculous and honestly just pathetic.
I could be totally wrong but by the sounds of it the pay isn't anything out of the ordinary and if it was it would be the studio's fault because of the set budget and schedule and out of Viv's control
I had no idea
She's literally paying rates that actual animators envy, yet Twitter hate-dom made up a way to look at it to make her look pure evil.
Wait so twitter is getting mad at Vivziepop for going on "lavish vacations" while her animators are "underpaid" even though her animators are paid more than average, and she's not even in charge of the actually budget of the show, AND when Vivzie does have control over the budget, she pays her animators a much higher rate. In trying to make Vivziepop look like a bad boss, they've just made her look better...
Gotta love how those outraged by this are ignoring what Adam's message actually says XD. Not only is this a temp job, but it was fully acknowledged in the job offer that this temp job pays less than usual because of a set budget. Even so, the job offer still left open room for negotiation and made it clear that the cleanup artist would have other resources and assistance. And if the cleanup artist decided not to take the assignment, it looked like their job would continue with Helluva Boss in a few months, and would return to a higher rate
I’m still very confused with this situation and honestly I didn’t even know it was happening! This is really tripping my braincells .
Same 😭😭😭
People are basically getting mad at vivize for "underpaying" clean up crew when it's an average pay rate
@@D1EN0B-b-but 35 dollars are average why are people mad and think about how much money they make per episode.... I Can't with twitter 😭
@@D1EN0 And too many aren't taking into account that she pays higher on the show she has full control of (Helluva), so is being limited by the studio (who she can't control) on Hazbin. It's not even like 'the average' rate' is what she _wants_ to pay.
Why do they keep on attacking Vivienne Medrano for no reason.
Good question
This and the fact they probably see her as an easy target, which I'm not denying she is- But it really does suck, Viv doesn't deserve it.@@HaughtyToast
Cause it's Twitter. They wake up and play the Blame game with someone who seem like a easy target.
@@HaughtyToast Ignoring it has been my plan. This story just confirms it's the best course.
That's the internet, sunshine.
Can we live without any drama like for a year please
Its simple. Get off your phone dumdum😊
@@Clossephone isn’t enough. Get off the computers and radios too
Nope.
@@phoenixflamegames1Don't even go outside, just lock yaself in a dark room.
I did some digging: Cleanup is just tracing the animators’ work to make cleaner outlines that can be coloured in later right??
And per second??? If you do the math that’s not too bad-
I'm not sure about other social media, but I heard Discord and Twitter conversations can be easy to fake or take out of context. If you want their animators to be paid more, then please consider buying merch from Vivziepop.
If she sold more merch of that pig from the end of the Addict MV, I definitely would. Also, got no money to buy the merch myself, but again, I totally would if I did.
Thank you for the run down!
It's really hard for me to trust anything out of twitter, or even just any info surrounding Viv because of how out of context things are taken like you said. So I really appreciate your straight to the facts run down on things, highlighting all sides of what's happening. You're the only channel I trust right now with any news on Viv and Hazbin because even if you're biased, you don't let bias affect what you post
The thumbnail for this video really captures how I feel about this 😂 like... come on. Thats some good pay for an animator rigbt there! Better then what I make thats for sure
5:30 “…and the fact that most twitter users lack critical thinking skills…” single best line in the video
(if i can improve upon this format of quoting let me know this is my first time doing so)
Ok so each employee gets paid $35 per second of animation right? Ok let's break this down...
One episode = 24 minutes = 1440 seconds of animation (roughly).
1440 x $35 = $50,000 per employee per episode. It generally takes about a month to complete one episode which comes out to $403,200 for roughly 8 months work, if that.
I am going to say this as nicely as I can...
THAT'S NOT SLAVE WAGES!!! Good God, this is why no one took the SAG strike seriously!
Vivzipop: **Breathes**
Twitter: REEEEEEEEEEEEEE 🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬😡💢💢
This is why i dont get a Twitter account.
Another day, another controversy 🤦♀️
Agreed
But it's The Game
By David Fincher
I feel so bad for this team. Like... they're put their heart into their project. I don't want to people harass them to the point where they don't want to make content anymore because of some people who can't live their life if they not cancelling someone. The show has flaws for sure that annoy me to, but here's the thing: I don't do animation, and I could not do a pilot that has over 93 million views.
Honestly, I'm so glad for your videos breaking down every vivzie "controversy" and why it's bullshit. There have been so many of them that they've genuinely gotten hard to keep track of.
This reminds me of Erika Frost situation. Hazbin is around the corner and I think they tried to put the show in a bad light
Besides the explainable stuff, theres three things I also find kinda weird about the message.
1. The message is in English, yet the date is in Spanish. Not the first time I've seen this, so whatever.
2. The person is working as a cleanup artist, yet Adam gives the wage of Rough Artist?
3. When Vivzie would hire, wouldn't she give an E-mail to contact? Do they E-mail their discord? Also, seems kinda risky to rely on discord when not everyone has it.
Could probably be easily explained, but I just saw them out of ordinary.
On a professional level, your employer would send a fucking email to you about everything…
It's just actually baffaling how many controversies this woman has. Don't get me wrong, people have genuine reasons to dislike her, and she has done shady shit, but there are so many people who do 4x what Vivzie pop does yet no one cares.
I mean, it's just funny. People are working themselves to DEATH trying to find SOMETHING to tear her down, I don't understand why. If you don't like her, just stop watching her content, stop engaging with her fandom, you don't need a reason to just not like someone, just post your hate tweet and go, no need to make up stuff.
Hol up $35 per second? Damn that sounds awesome, I only get paid almost $18 an hour
lol I also thought that for a sec and was confused how they have that money
That’s 126k per hour
That's 35 bucks per second of animation done, not 35 bucks a second lmao
@@thenamesronni I know that
@@shylar763 ah
I feel like with all this drama there’s going to be a “boy who cried wolf” situation, She’s going to do something absolutely abysmal and nobody will think she did it because of all the fake stuff. The only really “bad” things she’s done is be kind’ve a jerk and have a mostly horrible fan base and she shouldn’t be held accountable for the second “bad” thing because it isn’t really her fault that her fan base is full of edgy 10 year olds thinking they’re tough shit and that they’re “Mature” for watching a adult show. Good creators can have horrible fan bases for example like DOOM, Murder Drones, Undertale, and a lot of other things. Hopefully Vivzepop and her fan base and her haters, and critics can keep their mouth shut so we don’t have to see a bunch of bullshit fabricated out of nowhere.
Dang $35 it's pretty good for an indie project, I wish that I can get that opportunity someday when I improve myself more on animation xD
I feel really bad for Vivz. All she wanted to do was to create a show - and she did it, it's actually super impressive and an incredible achievement - and people are just shitting on her all the time for no reason. I don't follow these dramas too closely because that would drive me mad but, is she doing something wrong ? Why is everyone so against her ?
saying 35 dollars a second is a slave wage is so insensitive for so many reasons bro
Considering that my first ever job paid 5 bucks an hour, I would KILL for about 35 bucks an hour on a job I will actually enjoy (assuming the person takes an hour to finish 1 second of cleanup). All I'm seeing from this is that Viv is actually paying more than corporate studios are if A24 is paying 35 per second and she is paying 60 per second
I've had my legitimate complaints about the show itself and was a casual fan who thought there was a bit more good than bad, but the fact that the team puts up with this kind of nonsense regularly and keeps on going in spite of it has made me a super fan. You just have to admire their work ethic.
Even though I don’t like Viv as a person, I kinda separate her from the shows because of this
I agree with your end thoughts, all this drama is really just annoying at this point, with no proper explanations for anything…*sigh* twitter users
I’m not even surprised anymore to see videos titled: Viziepop Drama
That's what I was thinking. Part of my course in uni that I got a diploma in included animation. The fact that it's that per frame and the average wage in the industry it's pretty good. Everyone is way to use to seeing 20$ an hour something. There's always something Viv haters are going to try to drag her and her crew down. Plus, like you said hazbin is bento box and Amazon, so they will have different wages. The film and animation industry is different then just flipping burgers for a job.
I had one twitter user reply to a comment I made that questioned the timing of this drop that said it was likely because of NDAs....Gotta love people who don't realize that NDAs do not, and CANNOT cover discussing wages. Its absolutely illegal for an employer in the US to prevent you from discussing your wages, be it with people outside of work or with your coworkers (especially with your coworkers). The only people who can't discuss your wages or others wages is HR/Payroll and that is just because those positions have access to privileged info. I think the whole thing is stupid, and really shows the utter lack of critical thinking and reading comprehension.
The fact the person criticising this didn't say what they view a reasonable wage as speaks volumes. It sounds like it is an incredibly obscure payment method given some projects a second of rough draft might take hours others it could take minutes (just making those up I'm not in animation) so it's difficult. I feel the message was quite professional.
This is getting VERY tiring. Its like there's a controversy every other week on Viv. If she's soooooo evil as all these people keep claiming, why don't they form a union, or strike, or both. Even if a contract says you can't union, the contract cannot stop nearly 0 workers in the office.
But wait, its almost like a bunch of these controversies don't hold weight, or have been interpreted wrong!
The only things that could be a big problem are the besti drawings from her youth (which i don't think she draws anymore) and the Alastor drama, which imo if its a religion/mythology, do whatever you want as long as you're not rude to the people practicing them. Unless the practicers were rude to you first (looking at you, good chunk of Christians)
I got really scared when Monkey Wrench was brought up cuz I was hoping it wasn’t gonna get caught in some crap, I need more Monkey Wrench, please
So basically, it's a bunch of people who really don't know much about the industry or its terms getting mad and screaming over the internet without thinking or doing actual research? Yep, sounds like the internet summed up to me lol.
Industry Animator here, their rates suck. And none of it is liveable wages. Not anywhere in the US. This has been an on going problem for non-union work. Also I know BentoBox underpays their own inhouse studio works and contract workers. They pay 16-18$ an hour for ppl who are suppose to have degrees or years of professional experience in their East Coast/Altanta studio. That is minimum walmart wages for people who cannot get by without food stamps or government assistance. Is that the expectation for people with degrees and years of experience to be valued at?
Everyone should be paid a fair liveable wage and especially so for professional industry work. Just cause some animators have worked for years with bad wages does not mean that should be acceptable, but means they have not been properly paid for years and need to be. If you want to avoid a studio Mappa situation, we need to be paying and valuing these jobs more, all over the world. Only way to do that is to unionize and not let people get exploited to be underpaid by studios. These big studios need to start paying up. And the indie studios need to start smaller with either fewer people or get more funding through kickstarter if they do wanna keep making more projects, rather than trying to get professional work with little pay. It is unfeasible, to expect the artists to eat the cost by not being paid enough to live properly with fair wages.
Plus the person who made the og tweet (chai)is a known liar and has his own controverys worse than viv hes obsessed w viv
I made a vid on my channel about him
"Twitter users tend to lack critical thinking skills" As someone who has a Twitter account, I can confirm this is true.
5:29 him saying "most twitter users lack critical thinking skills" in such a monochrome voice was amazing
“Since most Twitter users lack critical thinking skills” is a perfect description of EVERY viv drama that’s ever happened
So Viv literally pays her animators double the average wages and people are saying she 'Doesn't pay her animators'??? These people need to get a life mahn.
Also yeah, most of the people commenting on Twitter clearly don't know anything about how the animation pipeline works. And all of this not even to mention the fact that Viv literally has no control over how much she can pay the Hazbin animators!! If you're going to come after anyone here, maybe come after A24?? (Which I think is still stupid. Like seriously don't do that A24 isn't doing anything wrong either, and the animation on Hazbin is much less intensive than on Helluva)
Also, the person pointing out how shady it was that the tweet came out right after that hiring post from Viv is probably onto something. If you look at when the discord message was sent, it was sent 2 years ago, in 2022. Ain't it sus that Viv posts about how she's hiring new animators, only for a discord message from Adam from *2 years ago* to get leaked and "expose" the "slave wages"??
Yeah I smell a little BS. For all we know Hazbin could've upped their rates by now anyways. It's been like a year and a half.
I remember seeing this! I was like 'hey it says rough animation. that's like sketches, right?' AND NO ONE EVEN WAS LIKE 'oh yeah maybe' it was just NO NO NO ITS THE FULL THING like why
Am sure hazbin hotel will work out with the power of positive thinking ( ´◡‿ゝ◡`)
It’s like there’s some force trying to stop it from releasing
When I saw the title, I thought it meant we have to pay to watch Hazbin, I’m hoping we don’t have to
We do, just via a Prime subscription. If you have one and it's not expiring, you are golden. 👍
I think for TV shows on prime you don't have to pay but you do have to watch ads.
But if you wanna watch a movie or watch it without ads you have to pay
(I THINK)
Love the new background footage.
Is that modded left4dead? AWESOME pfft
Dam, viz just cant get anyway from the drama.
I was waiting for you to cover this. My friend sent it to me with the addage that "All my friends in the industry say this is actual slave wages, like below minimum wage per hour." So thank you for clarifying some things. I appreciate it greatly.
Wow. I think VivziePop is in the wrong even MORE now! Thanks Ayy Lmao!
Most intelligent Twitter user
Than you just love to gobble up misinfo and there's no helping you.
Twitter's on the the door to your left. Bunch of bastards just like you waiting for ya.
I feel like this is another case where Viv is doing something that is an industry standard or industry wide problem and people latch on to it as if she's the only person doing it. That and they don't know how animation works if they think that every frame is always a 100% new drawing done by one person. Like, if they were getting paid ~$3 a frame and one person was handling the background, line art, and color for any given frame, they would all quit. Viv just wouldn't have anyone working for her because those rates would be too low to afford basic necessities.
This isn't like actual examples of underpayment where the workers have no other reasonable job options and are forced to stay at a bad job. These people are at a skill level where they can reasonably get a different animation related job or simply continue doing what they were doing before getting the job offer.
Jeez, it's like these people can't stand the idea of an adult indie animation studio becoming as popular as it is.
As a stubborn man once said: “Slander is spoken. In print, it’s libel.”
Can we _please_ go even _two weeks_ without a “new” Spindlehorse/VivziePop controversy taking over all of Twitter? I’d like that a lot, thanks, gettin reeeeaaal sick of feeling like I need to hide the fact that I watch her stuff for fear that people I like will disown me for ignorance.
So... they are paying the higher side of the industry average for animation? Are twitter trolls morons?
Yes.
WHAT DID SHE DO NOW?!
Devilalchmist i don't fucking know...
If this is anything like past dramas, likely nothing.
Pay slightly better than average
@@commandercorl1544 Facts it's always the same thing
HOW MANY TIMES DO WE HAVE TO TEACH YOU THIS LESSON OLD MAN 😂
conversy aside its really intresting to get this insight. ive been trying to produce my own series for a while and do what i can to give fair wages out of my own pocket to everyone on staff, it was super hard orginally finding info about how the indie side of the industry works so hearing about these rates for the rough animation stage really does just help further in learning about ways i can improve the qaulity of funding for my own team .
thank you for going over this stuff
The fact that Adam’s screenshot clearly says that the reason the pay is 35/s (the higher end of an industry average) is because of a set budget by their client, while their own budget is almost double that, makes this entire debacle only about the lack of reading comprehension of all of Vivzie and Spindlehorse haters. Why are they mad at Spindlehorse and NOT A24/Bento for paying them so “cheap”, if they really want to throw a fit about this? Nevermind the fact that rate is an industry average 🤦
me when i'm excited for Hazbin Hotel season 1 to release: man! i'm sure nothing bad would happen! :D
Ayy Lmao: *releases pay controversy of Vivziepop Hazbin Hotel video*
Hazbin Hotel community: *started chaos*
Me: ...............alright. I guess i was wrong.
I thought it meant per real time second for a bit and I was thinking how the fuck are people complaining about that
35$ a second (of animation) is insane, thats a lot
Conspiracy theory: all this drama is big animation trying to kill indie animation
Just ONCE I’d like to pass the month without controversy concerning Viz
"And the fact that most twitter users lack critical thinking skills" Words of the wise 5:28
One of the biggest and greatest questions of the decade or maybe a century: Why some peoples hated indie animation in general like at all?
i swear its probably because vivzie is so bad at handling criticism that she got into the same situation that dream is in where every few weeks or so a new controversy would appear because people see how easy it is to do it with those people
Just looking at the tweet when I just woke up this morning was literally a bunch of nonsense that I feel like this user tweeted this garbage on purpose with no literal proof or doesn't know how the work of animation works.
And of course, the tweet had to go viral for all the wrong reasons. These constant controversies is really exhausting with how the haters/antis are so desperate to attack Vivziepop for something that she isn't doing. I guess we as the enjoyers of Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss don't deserve nice things.
Imma be real, I don't even think that original screenshot is real. The original poster is notorious for faking evidence against Vivziepop (and has apparently said some very disgusting things on Tumblr regarding a "sexual" relationship between the HTDYD character Hiccup and his pet dragon, Toothless 😬) Also Discord messages are like STUPIDLY easy to fake becahse if hoe Discord's display works. As you said, the fact we're not shown the messages before or after the original is very suspicious. Furthermore, why would a message like that even be sent through a texting/gaming app like discord? That's the kind of message that would be in an email. Very suspicious.
This Chai person is also known to stalk Vivziepop and her family, which is just… why’re people taking their word for it?
literally people apparently doesnt like her because she is living their dreams and having a show actually be made, along with her Helluva boss series on youtube, to be a real dream for her made true. Like people trying to find ways to cancel this chick is absurd and should really stop because she became successful off of her and everyone else's hard work on the show to make it what it is today. Everything she has pumped out for Helluva boss is amazing, so for Hazbin Hotel, which started out as a pilot episode and received MILLIONS OF VIEWS in a matter of hours to days and exceed even her expectations and to become a TWO SEASON SHOW is amazing. for the haters on her, for the haters on the show, kiss her ass!! BOW TO THIS WOMAN AND HER PEOPLE WHO MADE THIS SHOW AND HER OTHER SERIES!!! She achieved something that MOST content creators try to go for, making a show with more than one season, getting notoriety from Amazon and what not for the show to get a series, etc. Respect the lady and her crew for everything she did. Like its annoying to see her getting targeted over something so FUCKING DUMB.
There literally can not be one day without viv getting yelled at
I feel its also worth noting that in the replies, OP is encoraging a user to pirate the show which... im no legal expert but that, to me, sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen