How is 10 percent recruitment time valuable? Woo I got my infantry 1 day earlier. woo I got my cannon 2 weeks sooner (even tho you already wait like 20 weeks) big woop. 10 percent inf combat ability is "OKAY"!!??!?! omg why don't you love inf combat ability?
Whilst I do think its been weakened by the change, Religious was by no means just Deus Vult. Humanist has Unrest -2 and Religious Unity, but Religious has Tolerance of the True Faith and stronger missionaries, and conversion has the added benefit of removing tax penalties. Religious also has some of the best event spread in the game. The main thing I miss from humanist is the 5 years of separatism and idea cost finisher.
Creepster-sama well, that would be kinda useless, the costs of surpassing naval force limit is quite low. i think faster ship travel time would be great.
I kinda feel navies should play a bigger role. Like being able to attack coastal forts like artillery, or capture ungarrisoned, unfortified island-provinces. (Hormuz, Socotra, etc.)
I look at Humanist as more of a Band Aid when compared to Religion if you are taking on Provinces of other Religions . Since it takes so long to convert provinces without it , the Reason to Convert , you get Lower Unrest and can Convert their Culture for much higher levels of Production etc ,
The Digital ninja if you cant do anything in the game then just take land from cristian countrys because your already playing as a cristain and you dont have to convert it because it the same religion and you get less unrest
The main reason for religious is not the -25% AE reduction and the casi belli, but the +3 missionary strength and the extra missionary. For nations like Russia, expanding alot and into catholic/sunni lands alot, you NEED these or be eaten by continuous rebels. If anything, for such nations, which get ridiculously good missions aswell, providing casus belli enough times to not need deus vult at the start at all. Your 3 diplomats aren't going to be idle either with such nations. Since you get +3 sooner, you can go eat sunni lands sooner, which means it could also be seen as a buff. just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.
I've got an idea or 2 about guide video's you might wanna consider doing: -vassal management (feeding them, when to integrate, how to deal with liberty desire etc.) -colonial management - a guide on how to dominate the new world without having your colonial nations become independant.
the best thing about Admin ideas is that it has both CCR and interest per annum in the same idea group, making it ridiculously good for a WC in which you use Florrynomics
I find that as a Catholic filling out Religious ideas is really powerful, especially if you already have additional PA (like Spain). Extra yearly PA and extra missionary strength for more PA means if you play Catholic like I do you stop paying admin for stability.
In my opinion it is a small buff for russia, because you get the missionary strength earlier and they don't need the "deus vult" because they get claims on like everything around them.
But you couldn't convert all that land you had claims on, now you can with another 400 admin still in your pocket. And when the time comes where you are able to expand stupendously you will have the cb and more core lands. Claims give you 90% province warscore cost
It was according to the devs moved so that religious ideas would be less of a no brainer. One thing about Deus Vult isn't as needed for Catholics at least, not because most don't border religious enemies but because they fixed that you actually get a cb if you border the current crusade target which actually makes deus vult less needed for Catholics early to mid game. But the rest of the world isn't as lucky.
Just some quick Math for wondering on how long this will delay your GLORIOUS crusading CB on average : Lets presume you're able to spare a budget of an average of 5 admin a month for this holy idea group (3 from monarch, 1 from base 1 from advisor) - its also presume you never spend any of this admin on anything else in the mean time but be aware every 60 admin would be a years delay if this rate applies to you. OK SO: It costs you (400 per idea and there are 7 ideas) 2800 admin power to get to GLORIOUS CRUSADING RIGHTS - Which is 560 monthes or 45.6* years. For reference getting -just- the casus beli before was only around 6.5 years. I wouldn't say this group is unplayable - I'd say it's ~ influence ideas in power level. It's got a clear use - it's situational and not something you want every game but will be very strong some. It's basically what all the idea groups would be in an ideal world. TLDR: I'm happy with this nerf.
While I agree that there are likely more groups that need nerf possibly a little more - this is one of the ones that's easiest to fix - because the only bit that made it 'OP' was the very abusable 'dip' you could take - and how easy it was to simply discard it once you no longer need it. Outside of maybe defensive and administrative I dunno if any group was so cost-efficient in terms of dip - and yeah maybe moving it less far along would have been better...
'Deus Vult is worse than Imperalism' Not strictly. Imperalism requires you to take the enemy Capital as your Wargoal. Deus Vult is Show Superiority; which is usually FAR easier to get ticking on.
Hey Darkfire slide would you ever Take Expansion ideas? Also I love the Channel, do you think you will ever fight as a horde? Which Thorne do you think is better the Chinese 1 or the Japanese 1?
I would also say that the 5th idea in the defensive idea group is very strong as well especially the bigger country you are (assuming you got more forts than the smaller countries), it might not be as awesome as land maintanance but it's still pretty awesome for your economy
not to mention the less attrition from the 6th idea in the group which just means you take less manpower losses from sieges which makes the idea itself a twisted national manpower idea (only for sieges)
I'm not saying if you want manpower you should take defensive but it's a nice bonus to have, I do use forts especially with the new devestation mechanics which makes zone of control more important than before
It's great as a second or third idea group as Japan. Since you're the only shinto nation in the world and it might take you a second to unite Japan it comes into play at just the right time when you begin to have lots of other-religious neighbors.
What do you have against converting provinces? I conquer a lot of pesky heathen land and want to convert is ASAP, Humanism isn't helping much with that task, never really found the appeal in it, I rarely have rebels and the few I have are religious ones who didn't see the light yet.
So, Dark, for which nations would you still recommend taking Religious? Maybe Muscovy, because orthodox? Ethiopia, because Coptic and bordering lots of Muslims? Byzantium because Orthodox and +3 TTF?
Is there a way to tell a vassal to start fabricating a claim or fabricate a claim for a vassal even if you do not share a direct border with the nation you want to fabricate on? I keep trying to play early/mid-game vassal strats but I quickly end up unable to expand due to being boxed in.
At this point why not take influence... yes you need a claim which does slow things down but you can take land without claims for half cost or force vassalization for half cost (the advantage of this is that it also work on secondary participants if your enemy has some allies)
Just started Ethiopia today, and I'm really feeling that nerfed religious. But on the up side I did get colonialism to spawn, so I should be set. As long as they keep 3% missionary strength I'll be happy.
its definitely nerfed, but it makes more sense this way. If you take religious ideas, then your nation slowly becomes more and more religious with each idea you get. Finally, as you complete it, intolerance of neighboring heathens and heretics becomes too much to bear, so your people dont have an issue with persecuting said neighbors
You may slow down the crusade Paradox but you cannot stop it! Deus Vult the heathens! Serious though, religious + Coptic Ottomans = god but now I feel like Humanist + Coptic Ottomans = god.
To be honest, I love religious ideas more then humanist even if you completely remove Deus , due to the religious aspect of it. The faster conversion, making the whole world your fate and also the high tolerance.
I feel like this kinda was a buff because it moved the missionary strength up to the third slot. This makes it much easier to convert dirty muslim land which is impossible to do before like tech 8 or 10 which even then it is still very hard. Besides deus vult if available to use is better than imperialism because you get 100% cost on taking land. So instead of paying dip for land you want you have to pay only the core cost. I find myself taking religious for help converting muslim land rather than just the cb.
make a video about nations that need reworked ideas for example england / great britain... there r a lot, i think, have heavily failed ideas, in comparison to their history
I remember my first game as Aragom, if i didnt took religion ideas for the CB i probably get rekt by Castille, but with the CB i conquered some of north africa and get suficcient army limit and manpower to destroy Castille
I have more than 1000 hous in EU4 and I have never picked Humanist before. I will try to be a tolerant country now more often, especially because the delayed deus vult.
They should make put the Religious CB at the beginning again, but have it be a different, weaker form of the Religious CB. Then have the normal, full Religious CB be gained with the final idea. How's that?
Maybe I'm the only one, but I always used CB's anyway, and Deus Vault for me was and is something I rarely use. So for me this is actually a huge improvement.
I wonder if there would be a way to, instead of screwing with the placement of Dues Vult, reduce the power of the casus belli and improve some of the other ideas. It's going to be hard to balance an idea group which is one great idea and some filler.
More than religious, they should be worried about espionage and innovative ideas. Specially espionage. I mean, what's the point of all this bonuses if you only get 1 more diplomat?
Yes, but if a idea group needs of another idea group to be as useful as the others, it's because the idea group needs a buff. You don't need any other idea group when you choose economic ideas, or trade ideas, or exploration ideas, or any of the military ideas.
I can understand moving Deus Vult to the end to make the idea group less situationally overpowered, however I think having it in the middle might have been a better choice, not too late, but not too early. With it right at the end of the group it feels like it's barely worth being there, it makes taking Religious Ideas a decision based solely off of everything else in the group, so why even keep the Deus Vult in the game?
I personally don't think I'll be playing on 1.20, I haven't got MoH yet, but I'm still scared of the Ming. Until patch 1.21 I'm sticking with 1.19, and my better idea groups.
Now everyone will expect the spanish inquisition.
I'm from Spain, so that means..... be READY!!!!!! xd
It's kind of stupid because Deus Vult was used more in the Medieval era and not in the renaissance
But it makes sense from a balance standpoint, if not a historical one.
maybe if it was in the middle it would be better.
they also got rid of teleporting nations through time, rats.
Bitches. They also removed the infinite diplomats
Daniel Maynard times are hard
Joseph Stalin What about Coptomans ?
holy shit
what else did they remove...
I wished we lived in more pre-patched times.
-1 Stability.
Religious was, to be fair, a bit too powerful with Deus vult first. I think they should have put it maybe half way, rather than last.
Salterino Kripperino
Not exactly the missionari strengh is still very useful especialy for late game when you get the imperial casus beli
Kevin Pauer Also at that point you no longer give fucks about missionary strength.
How is 10 percent recruitment time valuable? Woo I got my infantry 1 day earlier. woo I got my cannon 2 weeks sooner (even tho you already wait like 20 weeks) big woop. 10 percent inf combat ability is "OKAY"!!??!?! omg why don't you love inf combat ability?
I am a Lion lol true
Whilst I do think its been weakened by the change, Religious was by no means just Deus Vult. Humanist has Unrest -2 and Religious Unity, but Religious has Tolerance of the True Faith and stronger missionaries, and conversion has the added benefit of removing tax penalties. Religious also has some of the best event spread in the game. The main thing I miss from humanist is the 5 years of separatism and idea cost finisher.
>calls naval ideas useless
*cries in italian galleys*
although agreed, they should give some increase to naval force limit
Creepster-sama well, that would be kinda useless, the costs of surpassing naval force limit is quite low. i think faster ship travel time would be great.
if only naval idea affect land ship lol
I think the problem is that navies are useless in EU4.
They're good for Byzantium
I kinda feel navies should play a bigger role. Like being able to attack coastal forts like artillery, or capture ungarrisoned, unfortified island-provinces. (Hormuz, Socotra, etc.)
Dark you're sure as hell active! I like it :)
I look at Humanist as more of a Band Aid when compared to Religion if you are taking on Provinces of other Religions . Since it takes so long to convert provinces without it , the Reason to Convert , you get Lower Unrest and can Convert their Culture for much higher levels of Production etc ,
I think that finishing administrative ideas will be quite important, because of the overall reduced number of states you can have
Comrade Mario That is true, but it also makes a great idea group even better.
But how we supposed to slaughte- I mean protect ourselves from the godless muslims
The Digital ninja Lmao 'Godless muslims'
The Digital ninja they wont attack you
The Digital ninja if you cant do anything in the game then just take land from cristian countrys because your already playing as a cristain and you dont have to convert it because it the same religion and you get less unrest
Kyle Neill Genius
Kyle Neill,
she lost the election so badly.
by like twice as many votes.
i guess not as many morons in france as we thought.
RIP Muscovy...
Emery NOBODY EXPECTS RUSSIAN INQUISITION!!!
Emery Yeah as the Byzantines I could declare war on anyone exept for Russia and Wallachia without any reason. Eastern Orthodox
u have tons of claims anyways, just go administrative i guess ^^
rly ? its not liek you can get claims on the entire horde country at once XD
Actually you should pick Administrative first as Russia
The main reason for religious is not the -25% AE reduction and the casi belli, but the +3 missionary strength and the extra missionary. For nations like Russia, expanding alot and into catholic/sunni lands alot, you NEED these or be eaten by continuous rebels. If anything, for such nations, which get ridiculously good missions aswell, providing casus belli enough times to not need deus vult at the start at all. Your 3 diplomats aren't going to be idle either with such nations.
Since you get +3 sooner, you can go eat sunni lands sooner, which means it could also be seen as a buff.
just my 2 cents, feel free to disagree.
they removed infinite diplomats :(
I know I was very sad too D:
KonPlayz What? How?
Marcelo H they just... did.
I feel that paradox found a salt vain so concentrated it will turn the Pacific in to the dead sea
I thought that missionary strength +2 was the main thing in religious ideas
but why move deus vult on the last slot not the second not the third THE FUCKING SEVENTH
because faith of the seven.
I've got an idea or 2 about guide video's you might wanna consider doing:
-vassal management (feeding them, when to integrate, how to deal with liberty desire etc.)
-colonial management - a guide on how to dominate the new world without having your colonial nations become independant.
the best thing about Admin ideas is that it has both CCR and interest per annum in the same idea group, making it ridiculously good for a WC in which you use Florrynomics
I find that as a Catholic filling out Religious ideas is really powerful, especially if you already have additional PA (like Spain). Extra yearly PA and extra missionary strength for more PA means if you play Catholic like I do you stop paying admin for stability.
In my opinion it is a small buff for russia, because you get the missionary strength earlier and they don't need the "deus vult" because they get claims on like everything around them.
Deus Vult idea gives you 75% province warscore cost so that is nerf
But you couldn't convert all that land you had claims on, now you can with another 400 admin still in your pocket. And when the time comes where you are able to expand stupendously you will have the cb and more core lands.
Claims give you 90% province warscore cost
Nah 100%
www.eu4wiki.com/Claim
I don't know if the reduction is only available for the conquest cb though.
Axelander deus vult is still good even if you have claims because it reduces aggressive expansion by 25%
It was according to the devs moved so that religious ideas would be less of a no brainer.
One thing about Deus Vult isn't as needed for Catholics at least, not because most don't border religious enemies but because they fixed that you actually get a cb if you border the current crusade target which actually makes deus vult less needed for Catholics early to mid game.
But the rest of the world isn't as lucky.
Just some quick Math for wondering on how long this will delay your GLORIOUS crusading CB on average :
Lets presume you're able to spare a budget of an average of 5 admin a month for this holy idea group (3 from monarch, 1 from base 1 from advisor) - its also presume you never spend any of this admin on anything else in the mean time but be aware every 60 admin would be a years delay if this rate applies to you.
OK SO:
It costs you (400 per idea and there are 7 ideas) 2800 admin power to get to GLORIOUS CRUSADING RIGHTS - Which is 560 monthes or 45.6* years. For reference getting -just- the casus beli before was only around 6.5 years.
I wouldn't say this group is unplayable - I'd say it's ~ influence ideas in power level. It's got a clear use - it's situational and not something you want every game but will be very strong some. It's basically what all the idea groups would be in an ideal world.
TLDR: I'm happy with this nerf.
graveeking I can't help but wonder if this wasn't a little extreme, given how strong so many other groups start by comparison.
While I agree that there are likely more groups that need nerf possibly a little more - this is one of the ones that's easiest to fix - because the only bit that made it 'OP' was the very abusable 'dip' you could take - and how easy it was to simply discard it once you no longer need it.
Outside of maybe defensive and administrative I dunno if any group was so cost-efficient in terms of dip - and yeah maybe moving it less far along would have been better...
'Deus Vult is worse than Imperalism'
Not strictly. Imperalism requires you to take the enemy Capital as your Wargoal. Deus Vult is Show Superiority; which is usually FAR easier to get ticking on.
The Crusaders Are NOT impressed...
Well its still good, but it has become more of a stability ideagroup than a war ideagroup.
Hey Darkfire slide would you ever Take Expansion ideas? Also I love the Channel, do you think you will ever fight as a horde? Which Thorne do you think is better the Chinese 1 or the Japanese 1?
3 DFS vids in 14 hour's praise the lord!
nice video ! liked and subscribed fellow conquer :)
can you talk about the revamped provence map?
You can delay the crusade, but you can't stop it! DEUS VULT!
I would also say that the 5th idea in the defensive idea group is very strong as well especially the bigger country you are (assuming you got more forts than the smaller countries), it might not be as awesome as land maintanance but it's still pretty awesome for your economy
not to mention the less attrition from the 6th idea in the group which just means you take less manpower losses from sieges which makes the idea itself a twisted national manpower idea (only for sieges)
Wait, you use forts? Also, the attrition thing is nice, but really, if you want manpower, get Quantity.
I'm not saying if you want manpower you should take defensive but it's a nice bonus to have, I do use forts especially with the new devestation mechanics which makes zone of control more important than before
It's great as a second or third idea group as Japan. Since you're the only shinto nation in the world and it might take you a second to unite Japan it comes into play at just the right time when you begin to have lots of other-religious neighbors.
What do you have against converting provinces? I conquer a lot of pesky heathen land and want to convert is ASAP, Humanism isn't helping much with that task, never really found the appeal in it, I rarely have rebels and the few I have are religious ones who didn't see the light yet.
I feel like you really undervalue the strength of interest per annum.
That manuever from defensive helped me with my 60k stack armies in middle east and siberian region
When are they going to just add more idea groups?
So, Dark, for which nations would you still recommend taking Religious? Maybe Muscovy, because orthodox? Ethiopia, because Coptic and bordering lots of Muslims? Byzantium because Orthodox and +3 TTF?
i like the change, never took religous for the cb, only for convert stf
especially for poland and lithuania this is awesome
platoon mexx For Muscovy religius ideas are also very usefull.
So we are back in EU3, there Deus Vult was also one of the last unlocks...
Is there a way to tell a vassal to start fabricating a claim or fabricate a claim for a vassal even if you do not share a direct border with the nation you want to fabricate on? I keep trying to play early/mid-game vassal strats but I quickly end up unable to expand due to being boxed in.
Seiban if u mark the territory as smth ud like to have then i think they would fabricate not sure tho
Okay. I'll try that.
Paradox is infadels!! DEUS VULT
Rip European conquest of India in 1500
But, you get the missionary strength earlier. I play Muscovy a lot so this is nice.
Member when you got CB from diplomatic ideas
At this point why not take influence... yes you need a claim which does slow things down but you can take land without claims for half cost or force vassalization for half cost (the advantage of this is that it also work on secondary participants if your enemy has some allies)
Just started Ethiopia today, and I'm really feeling that nerfed religious. But on the up side I did get colonialism to spawn, so I should be set. As long as they keep 3% missionary strength I'll be happy.
That discord message you got made me habitually check discord XD
Oh boy >_>
its definitely nerfed, but it makes more sense this way.
If you take religious ideas, then your nation slowly becomes more and more religious with each idea you get. Finally, as you complete it, intolerance of neighboring heathens and heretics becomes too much to bear, so your people dont have an issue with persecuting said neighbors
You may slow down the crusade Paradox but you cannot stop it! Deus Vult the heathens!
Serious though, religious + Coptic Ottomans = god but now I feel like Humanist + Coptic Ottomans = god.
CaptainCore993 ottoman ideas got a nerf too though
props for not making it over 10 minutes
Did you get a new mic? Your voice sounded particularly nice in this video.
To be honest, I love religious ideas more then humanist even if you completely remove Deus , due to the religious aspect of it. The faster conversion, making the whole world your fate and also the high tolerance.
I feel like this kinda was a buff because it moved the missionary strength up to the third slot. This makes it much easier to convert dirty muslim land which is impossible to do before like tech 8 or 10 which even then it is still very hard. Besides deus vult if available to use is better than imperialism because you get 100% cost on taking land. So instead of paying dip for land you want you have to pay only the core cost. I find myself taking religious for help converting muslim land rather than just the cb.
especially if you get constantinople... SO MUCH DEVELOPMENT AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Fucking hell Paradox...Move it to the Second Third of Fourth don't break Muscovy and Ethiopia.
Oh yeah! Well, I'll just use a console command for extra admin points!
make a video about nations that need reworked ideas
for example england / great britain... there r a lot, i think, have heavily failed ideas, in comparison to their history
For the accented guide of religious ideas should be spoken in Latin, with subtitles put at the bottom
My ghost diplomats ;_; nyeeet
I remember my first game as Aragom, if i didnt took religion ideas for the CB i probably get rekt by Castille, but with the CB i conquered some of north africa and get suficcient army limit and manpower to destroy Castille
A lot of nations also got nerfed like the ottos and some got stronger like mamluks
I have more than 1000 hous in EU4 and I have never picked Humanist before. I will try to be a tolerant country now more often, especially because the delayed deus vult.
well that's my multiplayer strategy screwed.
I feel like you could just do the first two of quantity
This is actually better for me as i need a missionary at first but...
Red the top comment (Sorted by Top comments)
They should make put the Religious CB at the beginning again, but have it be a different, weaker form of the Religious CB. Then have the normal, full Religious CB be gained with the final idea. How's that?
Progress is going to be slowed because of the nerf to states available.
Do you guys think that Coptoman strategy is still interesting?
1500 is really optimistic
But isn't some age linked to religious unity? it would make sense for some countries to take religious to try to achieve 100% unity
game should not be balanced around fucking MP or even SP, but around history. Dues vult makes sense being the first idea. Fuck paradox
I guess humanist forever it is
if your doing a campaign soon pls do korea
TSKN yeah do choson one
Religious is still better than humanist so that's all that matters.
make mandate of heaven playthrough
Maybe I'm the only one, but I always used CB's anyway, and Deus Vault for me was and is something I rarely use. So for me this is actually a huge improvement.
I wonder if there would be a way to, instead of screwing with the placement of Dues Vult, reduce the power of the casus belli and improve some of the other ideas. It's going to be hard to balance an idea group which is one great idea and some filler.
And how am I gonna do my Russian inquisition now ?
Another Scout Apprentice put in the console command add_claim 301
Pablo Olsiewich What province is it ?
More than religious, they should be worried about espionage and innovative ideas. Specially espionage. I mean, what's the point of all this bonuses if you only get 1 more diplomat?
CR0N0S LXIII Get Diplomatic ideas?
Yes, but if a idea group needs of another idea group to be as useful as the others, it's because the idea group needs a buff. You don't need any other idea group when you choose economic ideas, or trade ideas, or exploration ideas, or any of the military ideas.
CR0N0S LXIII In the case of Exploration ideas, expansion ideas go hand-to-hand with it.
innovative ised only to a -Become Prussia- get +20% infantry bonus. But it been used
Yes, hand-to-hand, but don't needed.
Impossible
paradox nerfs religious but not humanist
why dont you just modify the stuff you dont like yourself, i always have done that.
I can understand moving Deus Vult to the end to make the idea group less situationally overpowered, however I think having it in the middle might have been a better choice, not too late, but not too early. With it right at the end of the group it feels like it's barely worth being there, it makes taking Religious Ideas a decision based solely off of everything else in the group, so why even keep the Deus Vult in the game?
The whole reason I take religious ideas is for conversion strength and deus volt. And you don't get either early now. rip.
lord6617 You still get conversion strength +3%.
I personally don't think I'll be playing on 1.20, I haven't got MoH yet, but I'm still scared of the Ming. Until patch 1.21 I'm sticking with 1.19, and my better idea groups.
RIP religious, long live humanist
I never take humanist cause it is boring and too strong, in the time period the game is set in religious should be superior.
and then 1.26 happened and put a huge nerf on religious ideas and religions in general, by only allowing conversion of states, not territories.
Why nerf religious when humanist is clearly better?
Sam Otten Deus Vult was really goddamn strong for certain starts, but this may have been overkill.
What the hell Paradox? Every update making WC harder.
kotzpenner Anticipating an Admin ideas nerf next, honestly. Stunned it hasn't happened yet actually