that 17 minutes reveal was what broke so many people. Even after everything bojack has done you still can find ways to root for him and have hope, but that one act is just so insanely monstrous.
I saw somewhere that the writers wanted to add that detail in because too many people were trying to say that Sarah Lynn wasn't Bojack's fault. So they wanted something to really drive it home how guilty Bojack was of killing Sarah Lynn
@@internetgal38 I think what those people meant was the Sarah Lynn was an adult and chose to go on a bender. Bojack was still at fault but its not like Sarah Lynn did not choose to go do drugs. Making her a complete victim is no different than the people who make Bojack a complete victim because of his childhood early drinking whenever he has his alcoholic tendencies
It isn't even the fact that Sarah Lynn could survive, it's just that any sane person would have called the ambulance instantly, but Bojack prioritized his reputation over someone else life. As they said, it's not malice but by disregard, but that doesn't make it any less monstrous.
worst of all is that he covered his tracks because he thought he'd get in trouble for being involved in her death because she was with him, not realizing that there's an actual law that would have protected him from that specific thing. If I remember correctly, it was called the "good samaritan law".
The first hint about this is in S04E02, The Old Sugarman Place - the 2 girls at the hardware store comment about hearing that Bojack was there at the hospital when she died. Also, the movie with Paul Giamatti shows the doctors saying that Sarah Lynn died at the hospital. It's not the full story, but definitely enough of a background for the reveal to not be completely out of left field.
And that's what makes it hurt so much. We see Bojack putting forth a genuine effort to be better. We want these steps he's taking to lead to something good, for him to be happy. "He finally on the right path, why do those reporters want to ruin that?", we think. But for someone like Bojack, true growth cannot begin until he has faced ALL his demons.
The fact that Sarah Lynn may have still lived if Bojack swallowed his own pride and did the right thing for once. Some people may say “oh but he was panicking!” Very concerning that his first instinct was to draw himself away from the blame, and he had 17 minutes to panic, not once did go back in to help her
I want to say while I agree with you, I did see an interesting counter argument from non-using addicts on the bojack sub, they talked about how instincts can get very mixed up on a cocktail of meds, they said something that would be instinct and second nature to do in there right mind would be very different from what they would do when not sober, I want to express they also said it doesn't matter though, what bojack did was wrong and his fault, just like it would still be there fault for any actions they did under the influence, they were just explaining that you can be a much worse person when on meds. The pills to some degree change what you do and how you act. It's not right and if you know you make bad decisions on meds then you need to take responsibility for your action even when you're not sober.
Caleb actually came remarkably close to anticipating this episode's reveal, all the way back at the end of Season 4. At around minute 22 or 23 in the public S04E10 episode video, when commenting on Bojack's first reaction to Hollyhock's overdose being to run into his bathroom and start flushing his pharmaceuticals down the toilet, followed shortly thereafter by an anxiety attack, he starts speculating on Bojack having done something to hide "evidence that [he] might have killed somebody" directly after Sarah Lynn's death. He even said: "It feels to me like a very potential dark twist on things..." but then never *quite* followed the chain of thought through to its proper conclusion. Ever since that episode, though, I've noticed Caleb often circling around something being Not Quite Right about the night Sarah Lynne died, even before the show made this explicit at the opening of this season. It's clearly been nagging at him on some level. Eventually, he gets Jacob in on it too, and they start speculating about things like Bojack actually having been the one to help Sarah Lynn inject the heroin, stuff like that. It's been really interesting to watch -- and pretty impressive, honestly. On rewatch, the clues that there's *something* fucky about what went on that night are definitely there, but I don't remember picking up on them at all on my first watch, and I don't get the impression that many other people do either. Really good reading skills on display here.
Still don't think that was intend of the scene with Hollyhock, but reveal does make start of season 4 way more realistic response on Bojack's part. Especially part with watching reenactment of a scene at the hospital. I would say that besides admirable media literacy on their part, it also proofs that writers didn't pull 17 minutes twist out of thin air at the last possible moment. It was planted to put audience in the same shoes as Bojack's friends that often were in the dark or had only their imagination to fill in the blanks.
@@somestuff7876 Agreed. I don't think that we were particularly *meant* to see the 17 minutes coming -- I agree with you that part of its intent was to make us feel as betrayed by that revelation as Bojack's friends and fans might feel -- but it was interesting to see that there were enough...I dunno how even to put it, traces of intent? -- circling around that night for some readers to focus on there being something there to speculate about.
The cool meta-narrative trick this episode pulls is that the viewer is practically Bojack's accomplice by virtue of we knowing what happened with Sarah Lynn and rooting for Bojack to reach a happy ending. But then the series drops that Bojack has been hiding the 17 minutes delay even to us, so we feel kinda betrayed by the revelation.
“What am I suppose to do? I don’t know what to do. Am I doomed?” To think, she wasn’t doomed yet, even THAT night of their bender. She had a chance, right there, and I think she really wanted to change by then…but then when she needed somebody most, Bojack literally left her to die.
They both snorted the heroin mid-bender and you can assume they kept doing it off and on. It was Bojack's heroin from the Bojack Kills episode, Sarah Lynn found it in his glovebox and was enthusiastic about it (presumably had done it before but its not clear) while Bojack was initially hesitant, saying "we are not going to inject heroin... we will snort heroin like civilized adults" or something like that.
Yeah. There's a brief scene on the bench in the park (the same one we see in S01E03, the one that looks out over the "ass island") after they've agreed to snort the heroin where she's visibly and obviously nodding off. It's yet another of those nasty little "overdose false alarms" they pull throughout the episode. I assume that while she pulled herself out of that nod, she then continued to snort the stuff on and off right up until they went to the Planetarium.
@@AmericanBrit9834 So it seems like black tar heroin cannot be snorted but Powdered heroin is designed to be snorted or smoked. I could be wrong, this is what google told me.
Yeah… learning about the 17 minutes. That's too much, man. After that, I learned that you could only defend someone for so long. Ever since, whenever I see a character in whatever media being toxic, I don't sympathize if they continuously hurt themselves or others. Getting closer to the penultimate episode. Which is hands down the greatest episode this show has.
I think it was more the implication. “She was *different* I loved Sarah Lynn.” Different. Different from the other women in his life, different from Princess Caroline. It’s implying that he didn’t really love her.
@@lort8334 He says throughout the show that he's not capable of loving people but that PC is the closest he's come to actual love. So I wonder if PC sees it as he loves Sarah Lynn more or if she views it as him lying. Perhaps a bit of both
@@Greg-TC I always saw it as he technically loved Sarah lynn more but more like a daughter, he loved Princess Caroline like a life partner and that's going to be a much more damaged outlook because of his parents and how he saw there relationship. It would be easier to love someone he doesn't view romantically.
Near the end of season one episode 12 , Bojack is at the observatory holding his award and looking 👀 out over the city… A young horse comes up to him to get his autograph and says “ You’re my hero “ Near the end of this episode, where Bojack is at the Laugh Shack we meet this young guys older brother…. And learn that his younger brother died 😢😢 This show is astounding ❤❤
It's a pretty solid theory, but I'm not sure it's 100% confirmed. I feel like Horsin' Around was a bit too early for him and the kid is too young, but he may have been watching reruns so who knows.
One thing I think it's interesting is that he final interview didnt get all the facts, or even got some wrong because. They did not know the entire deal with Penny, and escaping with the rehab girl was less "devious" from how they put it. But it doesn't really matter if all the facts are right because the pattern is true. It doesnt make things look better for bojack or anything (if they knew everything about Penny it would be A LOT WORSE) I just think it's a nice realistic detail because they dont know all the information about it.
For the sake of the show's themes, I'd focus more on "BoJack hasn't experienced the consequences of his actions" and less "BoJack hasn't experienced his rock bottom yet".
Mr. PB breaking up with Pickles like that was the writing team taking a dig at Netflix cancelling the show early and not giving them the time to fully flesh out all the characters story endings.
The 17 minutes reveal was already enough to spike my hatred towards bojack to a hundred, but what made it so much worse was the fact that he wanted to exploit all the times he abused someone, lie about them, and act like a victim just because he got a dopamine hit from the hollywoo attention he's getting again. Those stories of him being a bad person are a source of trauma for his victims, the story of sarah lynn specifically was the cause of her literal death, and it's aired on television, wherein bojack sprinkles lies and decenters the actual tragedy and feelings of the victim and is used to make him, the person who killed her, look good. All he cares about is making himself look and feel good, with no regard or respect for all those he's hurt. Truly one of the few times i've been this grossed out by a fictional character also the fact that he immediately reverted to the "old bojack" when he got that dopamine hit from hollywoo attention goes to show how deeply ingrained certain habits (not sure if this is the right word tbh) are. It makes sense that he's at the mercy of the environment that shaped him throughout his entire life, but it's not sympathetic in the slightest when there are people who can break free from that because their morals and their desire to be better just overpowers it.
The smiles slowly dissapearing from their faces at 8:55 First time watching it I felt so dissapointed, because it felt like suddenly however much he changed or self-reflected on his actions was gone, and we were left seeing season 1 bojack
the episode was your standard 20ish minutes. But you're probably thinking of the Johnny 2 Cellos video about it which was 17 minutes long just to show how long 17 minutes is and what could have been done in that amount of time.
@@rosenrot234 Yep. I think they may also be thinking about the penultimate episode of the series, in which an important event occurs at the 17 minute mark.
The thing is that saying BoJack abuses his power over women doesn't really seem like a good analysis of what's wrong. We know that's not what happened with Jameson & it seems like an oversimplification with Princess Carolyn. However, there's a bit of truth to it as well. Princess Carolyn asks him in season 1 if he's really in love with Diane or she's just paid to listen to him talk about himself & that's what's going on with most of these. He latched onto anyone who gave him validation & all these women did in different ways. Marcie is obvious. Penny made him fell still desirable after Charlotte shot him down. Princess Carolyn believed in his career when most people didn't. Sarah Lynn had gone through a lot of the same things he did & understood why he was the way he was & didn't try to get him to change, just rode the slide all the way down. It's about the most immature & irresponsible form of attraction & he never gave any consideration to his own responsibilities to the other party, only thought about how they made him feel.
that 17 minutes reveal was what broke so many people. Even after everything bojack has done you still can find ways to root for him and have hope, but that one act is just so insanely monstrous.
I saw somewhere that the writers wanted to add that detail in because too many people were trying to say that Sarah Lynn wasn't Bojack's fault. So they wanted something to really drive it home how guilty Bojack was of killing Sarah Lynn
@@internetgal38ugh!!! I hate to say that I fell in that trap with Bojack…I’m glad they purposely put that in…
@@internetgal38 I think what those people meant was the Sarah Lynn was an adult and chose to go on a bender. Bojack was still at fault but its not like Sarah Lynn did not choose to go do drugs. Making her a complete victim is no different than the people who make Bojack a complete victim because of his childhood early drinking whenever he has his alcoholic tendencies
It isn't even the fact that Sarah Lynn could survive, it's just that any sane person would have called the ambulance instantly, but Bojack prioritized his reputation over someone else life. As they said, it's not malice but by disregard, but that doesn't make it any less monstrous.
worst of all is that he covered his tracks because he thought he'd get in trouble for being involved in her death because she was with him, not realizing that there's an actual law that would have protected him from that specific thing. If I remember correctly, it was called the "good samaritan law".
The first hint about this is in S04E02, The Old Sugarman Place - the 2 girls at the hardware store comment about hearing that Bojack was there at the hospital when she died. Also, the movie with Paul Giamatti shows the doctors saying that Sarah Lynn died at the hospital. It's not the full story, but definitely enough of a background for the reveal to not be completely out of left field.
I love how EVERYONE knew that doing the second interview was going to be a huge mistake
The episode I’ve been waiting for. The 17 minutes in which Bojack not only betrayed Sarah Lynn, but also the audience.
And that's what makes it hurt so much. We see Bojack putting forth a genuine effort to be better. We want these steps he's taking to lead to something good, for him to be happy. "He finally on the right path, why do those reporters want to ruin that?", we think. But for someone like Bojack, true growth cannot begin until he has faced ALL his demons.
@@TheJacobG "You're trying to make it seem that I'm a bad guy. I'm not. I'm not a bad guy."
The BoJack writing team can craft uncomfortable, realistic dialogue like none other.
The fact that Sarah Lynn may have still lived if Bojack swallowed his own pride and did the right thing for once. Some people may say “oh but he was panicking!” Very concerning that his first instinct was to draw himself away from the blame, and he had 17 minutes to panic, not once did go back in to help her
I want to say while I agree with you, I did see an interesting counter argument from non-using addicts on the bojack sub, they talked about how instincts can get very mixed up on a cocktail of meds, they said something that would be instinct and second nature to do in there right mind would be very different from what they would do when not sober, I want to express they also said it doesn't matter though, what bojack did was wrong and his fault, just like it would still be there fault for any actions they did under the influence, they were just explaining that you can be a much worse person when on meds.
The pills to some degree change what you do and how you act. It's not right and if you know you make bad decisions on meds then you need to take responsibility for your action even when you're not sober.
“WHY DO YOU TALK LIKE THAT, WE’RE FROM FRESNO”
not as good as the spaghetti strainers, but another great punchline cashing in on a season-long setup
Caleb actually came remarkably close to anticipating this episode's reveal, all the way back at the end of Season 4. At around minute 22 or 23 in the public S04E10 episode video, when commenting on Bojack's first reaction to Hollyhock's overdose being to run into his bathroom and start flushing his pharmaceuticals down the toilet, followed shortly thereafter by an anxiety attack, he starts speculating on Bojack having done something to hide "evidence that [he] might have killed somebody" directly after Sarah Lynn's death. He even said: "It feels to me like a very potential dark twist on things..." but then never *quite* followed the chain of thought through to its proper conclusion.
Ever since that episode, though, I've noticed Caleb often circling around something being Not Quite Right about the night Sarah Lynne died, even before the show made this explicit at the opening of this season. It's clearly been nagging at him on some level. Eventually, he gets Jacob in on it too, and they start speculating about things like Bojack actually having been the one to help Sarah Lynn inject the heroin, stuff like that.
It's been really interesting to watch -- and pretty impressive, honestly. On rewatch, the clues that there's *something* fucky about what went on that night are definitely there, but I don't remember picking up on them at all on my first watch, and I don't get the impression that many other people do either. Really good reading skills on display here.
Sad that they dont read comments...I think!
Nice comment!
Still don't think that was intend of the scene with Hollyhock, but reveal does make start of season 4 way more realistic response on Bojack's part. Especially part with watching reenactment of a scene at the hospital.
I would say that besides admirable media literacy on their part, it also proofs that writers didn't pull 17 minutes twist out of thin air at the last possible moment.
It was planted to put audience in the same shoes as Bojack's friends that often were in the dark or had only their imagination to fill in the blanks.
@@somestuff7876 Agreed. I don't think that we were particularly *meant* to see the 17 minutes coming -- I agree with you that part of its intent was to make us feel as betrayed by that revelation as Bojack's friends and fans might feel -- but it was interesting to see that there were enough...I dunno how even to put it, traces of intent? -- circling around that night for some readers to focus on there being something there to speculate about.
@@niloy2473 I don't think they read comments either, so I address comments on these posts more to other viewers.
The cool meta-narrative trick this episode pulls is that the viewer is practically Bojack's accomplice by virtue of we knowing what happened with Sarah Lynn and rooting for Bojack to reach a happy ending. But then the series drops that Bojack has been hiding the 17 minutes delay even to us, so we feel kinda betrayed by the revelation.
the worst part is that with narcan, administered as quickly as possible, she had a good possibility she would have been saveable.
“What am I suppose to do? I don’t know what to do. Am I doomed?”
To think, she wasn’t doomed yet, even THAT night of their bender. She had a chance, right there, and I think she really wanted to change by then…but then when she needed somebody most, Bojack literally left her to die.
They both snorted the heroin mid-bender and you can assume they kept doing it off and on. It was Bojack's heroin from the Bojack Kills episode, Sarah Lynn found it in his glovebox and was enthusiastic about it (presumably had done it before but its not clear) while Bojack was initially hesitant, saying "we are not going to inject heroin... we will snort heroin like civilized adults" or something like that.
Another thing is that unlike cocaine, you super can’t snort heroin. You need to inject it or else you are just asking for a brain aneurysm.
Yeah. There's a brief scene on the bench in the park (the same one we see in S01E03, the one that looks out over the "ass island") after they've agreed to snort the heroin where she's visibly and obviously nodding off. It's yet another of those nasty little "overdose false alarms" they pull throughout the episode. I assume that while she pulled herself out of that nod, she then continued to snort the stuff on and off right up until they went to the Planetarium.
@@AmericanBrit9834 So it seems like black tar heroin cannot be snorted but Powdered heroin is designed to be snorted or smoked. I could be wrong, this is what google told me.
@@Parasolhyena I'll be honest. I'm not super knowledgeable about heroin, that's just something I remember reading.
Yeah… learning about the 17 minutes. That's too much, man.
After that, I learned that you could only defend someone for so long. Ever since, whenever I see a character in whatever media being toxic, I don't sympathize if they continuously hurt themselves or others.
Getting closer to the penultimate episode. Which is hands down the greatest episode this show has.
The look on Caroline's face when Bojack said he loved Sarah Lynn. 😢
I think it was more the implication. “She was *different* I loved Sarah Lynn.” Different. Different from the other women in his life, different from Princess Caroline. It’s implying that he didn’t really love her.
@@lort8334 He says throughout the show that he's not capable of loving people but that PC is the closest he's come to actual love. So I wonder if PC sees it as he loves Sarah Lynn more or if she views it as him lying. Perhaps a bit of both
@@Greg-TC I always saw it as he technically loved Sarah lynn more but more like a daughter, he loved Princess Caroline like a life partner and that's going to be a much more damaged outlook because of his parents and how he saw there relationship. It would be easier to love someone he doesn't view romantically.
Near the end of season one episode 12 , Bojack is at the observatory holding his award and looking 👀 out over the city…
A young horse comes up to him to get his autograph and says “ You’re my hero “
Near the end of this episode, where Bojack is at the Laugh Shack we meet this young guys older brother….
And learn that his younger brother died 😢😢
This show is astounding ❤❤
It's a pretty solid theory, but I'm not sure it's 100% confirmed. I feel like Horsin' Around was a bit too early for him and the kid is too young, but he may have been watching reruns so who knows.
One thing I think it's interesting is that he final interview didnt get all the facts, or even got some wrong because. They did not know the entire deal with Penny, and escaping with the rehab girl was less "devious" from how they put it. But it doesn't really matter if all the facts are right because the pattern is true.
It doesnt make things look better for bojack or anything (if they knew everything about Penny it would be A LOT WORSE) I just think it's a nice realistic detail because they dont know all the information about it.
For the sake of the show's themes, I'd focus more on "BoJack hasn't experienced the consequences of his actions" and less "BoJack hasn't experienced his rock bottom yet".
The season 3 premiere has an excerpt of a TV movie that shows Sarah Lynn dying in the hospital.
Mr. PB breaking up with Pickles like that was the writing team taking a dig at Netflix cancelling the show early and not giving them the time to fully flesh out all the characters story endings.
incredible. great commentary! cannot wait for the next 4 eps
Same. What an amazing second half to this season. Every single episode hits hard. There's no reprieve.
The 17 minutes reveal was already enough to spike my hatred towards bojack to a hundred, but what made it so much worse was the fact that he wanted to exploit all the times he abused someone, lie about them, and act like a victim just because he got a dopamine hit from the hollywoo attention he's getting again. Those stories of him being a bad person are a source of trauma for his victims, the story of sarah lynn specifically was the cause of her literal death, and it's aired on television, wherein bojack sprinkles lies and decenters the actual tragedy and feelings of the victim and is used to make him, the person who killed her, look good. All he cares about is making himself look and feel good, with no regard or respect for all those he's hurt. Truly one of the few times i've been this grossed out by a fictional character
also the fact that he immediately reverted to the "old bojack" when he got that dopamine hit from hollywoo attention goes to show how deeply ingrained certain habits (not sure if this is the right word tbh) are. It makes sense that he's at the mercy of the environment that shaped him throughout his entire life, but it's not sympathetic in the slightest when there are people who can break free from that because their morals and their desire to be better just overpowers it.
I forgot just how much of a forest fire bojack is
The smiles slowly dissapearing from their faces at 8:55
First time watching it I felt so dissapointed, because it felt like suddenly however much he changed or self-reflected on his actions was gone, and we were left seeing season 1 bojack
That 2nd interview is so uncomfortable but so good… this is one of my favorite episodes specifically for its inclusion
People say this is Bojack Horseman’s “Ozymandias” and considering everything,I think that is pretty accurate.
Finally! I've been waiting for this episode since you guys started this show.
Bojack will suffer for his crimes.
Really great discussion you guys.
Havent watched your reaction yet, but considering the episode youre about to watch and the length of the video i know itss gonna hit hard
I have been waiting for this episode for the longest.
This episode explains the the very plot question they were discussing in the intro.
1 HOUR DISCUSSION?!
1 hour reaction?! Awesome
If I remember right, to hammer the point home this episode is 17 minutes long...but I don't have Netflix anymore so can't confirm.
I believe that reveal is at the 17 min mark, the episodes are always 22-24 mins
the episode was your standard 20ish minutes. But you're probably thinking of the Johnny 2 Cellos video about it which was 17 minutes long just to show how long 17 minutes is and what could have been done in that amount of time.
@@rosenrot234 Yep. I think they may also be thinking about the penultimate episode of the series, in which an important event occurs at the 17 minute mark.
@@elkins4406 Oh right I forgot about that
When I first watched this epsidoe, it made me physically sick. I had to stop the episode midway and came back to it months ago
The thing is that saying BoJack abuses his power over women doesn't really seem like a good analysis of what's wrong. We know that's not what happened with Jameson & it seems like an oversimplification with Princess Carolyn. However, there's a bit of truth to it as well. Princess Carolyn asks him in season 1 if he's really in love with Diane or she's just paid to listen to him talk about himself & that's what's going on with most of these. He latched onto anyone who gave him validation & all these women did in different ways.
Marcie is obvious. Penny made him fell still desirable after Charlotte shot him down. Princess Carolyn believed in his career when most people didn't. Sarah Lynn had gone through a lot of the same things he did & understood why he was the way he was & didn't try to get him to change, just rode the slide all the way down. It's about the most immature & irresponsible form of attraction & he never gave any consideration to his own responsibilities to the other party, only thought about how they made him feel.
Oh, I've been waiting for this one...
Oh, I've been waiting for this.
Ohhh you guys. You GUYS. You didn’t ever resolve the thread about Bojack needing to be liked.
Yeah, Bojack is going to hit rock bottom