Honestly, Marinette's stalker behavior turned me against Adrienette, and "Chat Blanc" and "Ephemeral" didn't help, since it felt like the writers didn't want it, either.
but after watching the 14th episode, after a mental trauma, I understood Marinette's behavior, yes, this does not justify her, but still Adrien helps Marinette somehow cope with this problem, helping not only Marinette, but helps herself develop better in relationships, because he also received a mental trauma while sitting at home, and so far has little understanding of this world.
I think the reason the love square is still as popular as ever is largely due to the fanbase creations and the early seasons, there are many many many animatics, fanfics, fanart pieces heck even songs about different forms of their romantic relationship dynamics Early on the canon established Marinette as a kind of clingy but overall still good and shy girl, not yet a full on stalker. Similarly Chat Noir was kind of sassy and flirty but didn't come off as creepy as he did in later seasons People got attached to this more early writing form of the characters and created headcanons as well as full on fanfic universes that are honestly way better than any romantic progression we get in the actual show
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head; so many fans agree that the writers don’t do the show justice and have collectively said “if you won’t do it well, I’ll do it myself” There are so many rewrite projects and fix-it’s that in some circles of the fan base the canon of the show just doesn’t matter; they took the concept of the show and ran with it
Yea I see the love square was made especially for fans to made fanfics, comics etc, and fanbase always love things like that. Or just made unintentionally but go that way. And yea, in first season Mari and Adrien were have not that bad vibes which go in next seasons. I propably stop interest in serial when wait for S4. Just basically start to read fics and comics... and i nearly regret not stop being in fandom just for fanfics, because last two seasons was like spit to my face by producers.
I don’t know if this is a hot take or not, but I feel like the time travel episodes exposed how insecure the writers were regarding people criticizing the romance. It felt a bit like the writers were sick of people pestering them about the slow burn and said “Fine, here’s your reveal. Uh oh, it caused the end of the world twice. Now shut up about.” I dunno, just a thought.
If both Marinette and Cat Noir’s creepy tendencies were framed as a flaw that they could help each other overcome, or better yet, receive outside help from people who are in a relationship (I.e. Ivan and Mylene, Nino and Alya) they could learn what it means to be in a healthy relationship, also sending a good message to kids. The moment they get together would feel even more satisfying that way.
Better, just think if Kagami or Luka teach them and show what mistake's they take. It could also be a good took for series, Mari try not to act like stalker and Chat not to be a abuser toward LB.
@@Shimospeher So what? it's not a sign of creepiness. he's been locked up at home for 15 years and he's bad at relationships. so he couldn't let go of ladybug like his mother.😒
@@topgame2645 his behaviour towards ladybug throughout the show is jarring. He’s allowed to like her, but constant flirting and throwing an attitude when she rejects him is weird. Guys who do this in real life are weird! Sadly this is never addressed and his behaviour is seen as cute/funny
Dame I just don't understand if Zoe gotten a lot of hate for only existing to be chole's replacement why don't kagmi and Luka get any hate for only existing as temporary love interests for the main characters I mean if chole remained queen bee Zoe wouldn't have to exist if Marinette had Adrian became a couple earlier we wouldn't even need Luka and kagmi I kind of wish they came as love guides for them instead
@@virnalassiter382 I think it's because Kagami and Luka never replaced Marinette and Adrien as characters; once Zoe came in, Chloe was intended to be forgotten by the writers.
This is (once again) something the movie handled way better. None of this constant beating around the bush! Now all the upcoming sequels have to do is expand on it. Something that can't be hard because (unlike the show)they were able to know each other's identities by the end of the first movie.
I too look forward the sequels. Because we can maybe get a half point break-up. Maybe something happen and they break up. Atleast until the end where they get together again. Or maybe they meet Kagami and Luka and don't get together at the end and just become friends. Then in sequels after they can maybe realize that they still love eachother and finally get together. Just what I think
@joeljohansson3615 well I'm not looking forward to the next movie because thanks to everyone making a fuss about chole not getting a redemption arc I have a very bad feeling that she's going to end up having one in the sequel as well returning as queen bee ha if we do end up having queen bee in the next movie I'll want a 3 qual were Zoe takes over the whole queen bee thing makes me wish that we only had ladybug and cat noir it's so odd that adrinette haters think that Adrian doesn't deserve marinette for stalking him when he's a love stalker himself and he can't handle her with other boys he may not sabotage them like she's doing to the girls he's with but my goodness and he abused his powers as well and the adunice only grounds ladybug for it and I really hate how the Fandom claims that Marinette never gets consequences for her actions duh her parents grounded her for skipping class and even though they should have punished her believing she didn't do what Lila framed her for at least she would have gotten what she deserved if she did actually do what Lila said she did and they also say she never gives cat noir a chance okay she may don't him sometimes but who can blame her if cat noir is being so dumb and annoying her? And if she always douted him she wouldn't accept him as her partner she just reject him trying to comfort her and even though she really got on my nerves begging for him to come at least it proves that she may have a little trust in him
Yes, the movie hand that better and i not only talk about they learn their ID and Gabe. After nearly a decade propably everyone want to see a good chemistry between heroes and damn, movie look like some good fanfic story.
I know I'm a month late, but I have to disagree which PAINS me bc the movie did so many other things better. But Adrien still rejects Marinette until he finds out she's LB. That just comes off hella shallow of him and I would hope the sequel(s?) could fix this...but I'm not really seeing how :/
Well, since the Miraculous movie ended with Marinette and Adrien revealing their identities and getting together, even though it's a different retelling of the Miraculous show, it still achieved that goal where Marinette and Adrien revealed their identities and got together. So in a way you did see Marinette and Adrien end up together in the end. The show has gotten them together eventually in season 5 but it's still slightly dragged on as they don't know each other's identities and the soon to come conflicts created by Lila as the future Hawkmoth, so yeah, you might be waiting a while for Adrien and Marinette to get their happy ending in the show.
I would say that the love square was funny and cute at first but then they overdid it and after that it took up more time than the plot's development and character development and was just overkill sometimes. There were times where personally it felt a little like they were inserting love square situations where it had no relevance to the story and overshadowed the plot's focus a bit. Nothing against them but they really overdid it a bit with the love square.
Yeah I kind of miss marinette being awkward around Adrian it kind of made her a funny girl and when I say I miss ladynoir I don't mean I miss cat noir flirting with ladybug but I do miss ladybug almost falling for cat noir the love square reverse is the most wasted pontial in the entire show we have waited for 4 seasons for ladybug to relazie her feelings for cat noir and it only lasted for 4 fucking episodes it should have lasted at least 10 or 11 more episodes and Adrian really only has his eyes on Marinette in season 5 after all this seasons he has seen her as "just a friend" he doesn't even take advantage that ladybug is finally looking up to him the way he did to her did he really fall out of love for ladybug or he's just blind by his love for Marinette? Come on yes she's been a huge jerk to him for 4 seasons and ignored all last season but come on no matter how many times she's rejected you you really wanted her that badly ha I think he's still blind
I was a marichat shipper do to the fact that one Mariette wasn't a stalker and genuinely starting growing a friendship with Chat Noir instead of a crush with friendship growing after and still being obsessive and how Chat Noir sure was playful but never saw Marinette as less then and took the time to understand her. That's why I like Marichat the way the show made Ladrien was just them having feelings but could never open up bout it. Then Adrienette being seen as Marinettes stalking and Ladynoir with Chat Noir being the "nice guy" and with the aspect of Marinette seeing herself being her true self as Marinette and Adrien seeing his true self as Chat Noir makes it more harsh cause if the reversal never happened then the problem of them not having feelings for who they really are would come up.
I never shipped Marichat romantically but they 100% should've had more scenes together. I Love seeing them as friends bc they can talk to each other naturally and are comfortable with each other
If you think about it, Ladybug doesn’t actually need Cat Noir or his powers, because she can just break the akumatized object herself and capture the akuma. Which means that Cat Noir literally only exists to carry on the plot for this show.
Personally, I find the problem with Marinette's Stalker with a Crush tendencies to be that they kept going at it for too long. Admittedly, it's a trope that's begun to fall out of fashion during the last ten years (thankfully) because now we recognise it as creepy rather than funny or endearing, especially if it happens in real life. With that in mind, it could be argued that the writers themselves were disconnected from reality in that respect, that they weren't as aware of the fact that the trope was overused and falling out of favour by the time the show premiered in 2015. You could say that sort of "explains" or maybe even "justifies" that they included it at all. However, they really should have moved on from that a long time ago. Just like if they wanted to justify Marinette's actions as a response to a traumatic event, perhaps they should have explained it sooner rather than wait seven years to assassinate Kim's character in one foul swoop. In a way, this can also be tied back to the pacing problem you mentioned. I don't know if I'm alone on this one, but for the longest time it sort of felt like Adrien and Marinette were only friends in name. Yes, there were heartwarming moments where Adrien was shown to care for her and Marinette chose to put his happiness before her romantic feelings, but for most of the show, they barely interact or hang out unless it's tinted under a romantic light. Which robs their relationship of any natural progression before falling in love. If they had just allowed Marinette and Adrien to truly grow close as friends before ending up together, Marinette could have moved on from her stalkerish tendencies after getting to know the real Adrien from interacting with him. While Adrien, aside from gaining another much needed friend, could have grown protective of her if they'd kept her backstory canon and introduced it early on in the story rather than at the very end of their first major story thread. That way, you have Marinette growing past one of her biggest flaws and learning to see Adrien as a person first and boyfriend material second, and Adrien learning to put his foot down regarding Chloé sooner while also slowly developing feelings for Marinette in a way that feels more organic.
@@leopoldosoto779 No, that was definitely a problem as well. Mainly because the writers refused to treat it as an actual flaw. I was just focusing on the Adrienette angle when I posted the original comment.
The romance between the 2 was the cherry on top for me absolutely despising the season 5 finale and majority of the show. The love story between Adrien and Marinette took far, far too long, and it just became creepier each passing episode. And on top of that, season 6 is probably gonna continue the romance between them but with Marinette keeping a bunch of secrets about Adrien’s family and his overall existence. Yikes forever.
Be honest they had more chemistry as just friends then anything else. Adrigami and Lukanette had it all but was shot down with flamethrower. Everyone have a blessed Monday August 28, 2023 at 10:16AM. 🔥🌸🔥🌸
@@DFeligamiAdrizoeSworaDennisFan Hey hope your Monday is well. I'm still writing my Adrigami/Lukanette fanfictions. Of course instead of a toxic forced love story. A slow burn annoys me but even that concept is fine as long it gets somewhere eventually. Everyone have a blessed Monday August 28, 2023 at 11:26AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥🌸
The main leads' worst traits are mostly a result of season 1 being an episodic romantic comedy that forgot that you can ditch those jokes when you got to the more serious part of the romance.
@@StrawberryStar7 You wouldn't even think of him as a deuteragonist with how little he gets in terms of wins. Not being the protagonist isn't an excuse to treat his character like the writers do since there are tons of deuteragonists who are actually treated as such, some of my favorites being Mabel from Gravity Falls, Richie/Gear from Static Shock, Ingrid from Filmore, as well as Katara and Sokka from ATLA. And what makes it worse for Miraculous is the fact that these shows which gave their deuteragonists ample amounts of all the good stuff, were all at least half as long, Filmore and Gravity Falls were only 2 seasons, ATLA was 3, and I think Static Shock was too.
@@StrawberryStar7 There can absolutely be multiple protagonists in a show. By definition, a protagonist is "the leading character OR ONE OF THE MAJOR CHARACTERS in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional piece." But you are right in that the title character does not necessarily have to also be one of the protagonists. After all, Dracula is the antagonist of his story, and in Disney and Pixar's "Coco," the title character is the protagonist's great-grandmother.
I agree, plus I feel like the backstory with kim was shoved in the story as an afterthought. Why would Marinette be fine giving a miraculous to Kim with the spider thing in mind, or at least why did she not give it a second thought. This is all to say it felt like the writers saw that the community was giving Marinette flack for this so they pulled a reason out of their collective ass to explain, whilst using the only conventionally attractive male they had.
Correction Marinette never gave the miraculous to Kim. Master fu chose Kim because all the other people in party had already gotten a miraculous and he was the only one at the party. And as to why she gave it to Kim is because Master fu gave it to him just like how he gave her and catnoir the cat and the bug miraculous. And he was the guardian of the miracle box at the time. So it kinda makes sense and marinette doesn’t talk to Kim that much plus her fear is not Kim giving her spiders but the harassment of chloe she even said that it was Chloe’s fault not Kim. Plus Kim was always a jokester and I would see him do that to Marinette.
It definitely was, as well as Soqueline's introduction. They couldn't use Alya for this episode, so they created a new one. Real cheap Plus, this episode retcons dark cupid. Why would Marinette help the guy who "traumatized" her get with her bully ? It doesn't make sense
I can explain Marinette giving him Monkey Miraculous but keeping Derision in mind I for the love of God can't explain why Marinette would be supportive of Kim confessing to Chloe in Dark Cupid given what happened in Derision Also Dark Blade episode revealed that Kim is afraid of spiders and that's what Chloe blackmailed him with so the whole prank in Derision doesn't make sense So the whole episode doesn't fit the show
Being an adult (21) fan is so surreal and disheartening sometimes. I babysit sisters, and their older sister is 16. She was home while I was watching the girls and we started talking about ML since the girls were watching it. She started saying things like, "Yea but you have to imagine, I was a kid when I first started watching it, so that's why I like it." As if that's her justification and she's better than me. Uhhhhh girl. Me too! I was 13-14 maybe? I was definitely Mari's age or younger. I was around when it was just the beginning of season 1, before Origins. It's been around so long that new new fans are getting into it and "new fans" are starting to get older and are forgetting adult fans (OGs) were originally preteens/kids too. It's crazy!
You're right for sure! Spoilers up ahead... Season 5 ruined the square for me(not that it was ever good but it was at the vrry least entertaining)because Marinette is lying to his face about the fact that his father is a terrorist, and then who even cares about Cat Noir anymore?
Season 3 soured me towards the love square and glaciator 2 the scene where ladybug throws cat noir in the trash can ruined the love square entirely And cat noir has always gotten the short end of the stick
I started to watch Miraculous as a child and now i am an adult, and i am still waiting for them to discover each other identity. This is soooo frustrating.
I couldn't agree more Back when I was a BIG miraculous ladybug fangirl I took a year long break from MLB after watching that AWFUL season 3 and when I came back I missed nothing romance related I would also turn off some episodes just because I was uncomfortable with Marinette's creepy behaviour and that fact she's "traumatized" doesn't change that LIKE IF YOU MAKE A 10 YEAR OLD UNCOMFORTABLE AT SOMETHING WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE "CUTE" THEN YOU KNOW YOU MESSED UP
Yeah I agree that it took way too long for the romance to happen and when it showed I wasn't into it. For the Love Square, I can find better fan fiction stories where they establish each ship and not be complicated. Heck even with different Marinette ships
Yeah... I think dragging out as long as they did built the hype way too much and then just kept dragging it until it kinda crashed. There was a pretty low chance of it ever living up to the fans expectations after so many seasons of will-they-won't-they shenanigans. Never mind the fact that it just isn't the greatest example of writing.
Yea they basicaly kill the thrill after 8 years, it feel for me at some point that relation between them would never happen. And for show that roll around romance and hero thing (which suprise is also romantic)... Hell i would propably better love this show if in S4 they know who they are and act like lovely doofus.
What I dislike about the explanations given for their behavior, is that instead of just having them go through natural character development & improving their characters, they just explain why they are the way they are, and that’s the end of it. Like, now that we know the reason behind their behavior, it’s all good & they don’t have to change them any.
Yeah I realised how obsessive he used to be but atleast he's not as bad as Marinette. And he was sheltered so it would explain his extreme actions(not justify it) besides he does seem better now anyways
He never acted that way around kagami tho he only did it around ladybug and no one eals and merranet did not know adrein was into somone eals aka ladybug but he knew she was into someone eals and did care
I gave up on those two since the end of season 3 they took too long to make them be together the chemistry they use to have isn't really there anymore because the show drags it out for too long when they got together I was like whatever Felix and Kagami being together got me more existed.
As a fan of Miraculous since season 4, I noticed how slow the main love story progressed slowly as I binged seasons 1-3 to get ready for season 4. I wished they did more with Marinette's romantic relationship with Luka and Adrien's romantic relationship with Kagami, like have a season where they were with their respective paramores until close to the end of the season. Then have Adrienette start up again while Lady Noir gets complicated. I swear the writers are like to drag their feet about progressing the story rather it's in the superhero/civilian life balancing, romantic subplots, calendar tracking (which I think is BS at the best of times. Like the whole 5 seasons taking place over a year? Yeah right!) and the villains not learn from their failures. Put people wanna see Marinette and Adrien get together and not explore them being with other potential romantic partners. And they dare try to justify a status quo that is overdone.
Some day we will all be nostalgic for the love square meme era. It was a big part of the franchise and its overall popularity. It is not missed yet but some day it will be.
The reason why the love square is the only thing that made this show popular is because it’s a new idea that’s never been done before, or at least an idea that I’ve personally never seen. They were cooking when they came up with this idea in the writing room but sadly they ran out of ingredients after this idea. Personally I read fanfics of the love square where it’s arguably better to satisfy that love-square craving that you want in romance.
Totally agree. As a hero story it was decent. First season was funny but nothing special. With Agreste plot it finally start defend itself with story. But love square Skyrocket that into it's position. I never saw anything like this, the closet was propably kamikaze kaito Jeanne but no chemistry like that. Ship scenes in episodes like when they go to ice rink was better and more interesting than fight next after. But after 3 seasons it lost momentum and creators propably lost steam too. The things we saw in 5 like Bugi flirt with chat or Adrien with Mari should go in S3. Not nearly five years later
@@Shimospeher i watched the first 2 seasons when they first came out and instantly knew that this show is giving the “rent a girlfriend” treatment of the -will they? Won’t they?- phenomenon, so I stopped watching. Recently I watched session 5, skipping 3 & 4, and yup, i was totally right. It’s like I didn’t skip two whole seasons at all.
I mean itsactually a classic trope. its a classic lois lane/clark kent/super man aspect...or even just a batman x catwoman aspect. it just this was front and center and can play on how sincere someons feelings are if they dontknow akll of you or only seem to like you under certain circumstances.
Personally I watch the show for everything But Marinette and Adrien. But especially Chloe. Heck the main reason I have to watch Season 6 is to find out what is going on with Amelie, and Lila Marinette and Adrien are not even on "The list".
They pinched it from Spider-Man the only difference is Spider-Man found out Black cat was Felicia fairly soon and they are not supposed to be the OTP. But otherwise Felicia likes Spider-Man and is dismissive of Peter and Peter likes Felicia but is dismissive of Black Cat and when they find out who each other is both sides Felica looses interest completely.
The title just got me clinking it. Indeed it's a success even as it's a lack luster badly written concept. Now I'm talking regardless my Adrigami/Lukanette heart was canon wise punched into a coma. Doesn't matter the pairing inside, the (Stupid) Love Square is that: S-T-U-P-I-D!! It's never continuous in development, the toxicity on BOTH their sides (Not just Marinette and not just Adrien) but how they forced moments between them that didn't fix into particular parts of all episodes. The series ended in the Season 3 Finale for me. Watching by the end of 5 was just for the mini moments of Adrigami and Lukanette. Anyway, Smarty Pants your Miraculous videos never fail to make smirk and laugh. 😻😻 Everyone have a blessed Monday August 28, 2023 at 10:13AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥
I think the simplicity of the idea of the love square gave internet artists and writers a lot to work with and fans meanwhile enjoy speculating about the details of the reveal.
I honestly agree with you the lover story is very badly written, it took forever to make any actual progress, I think because of that I forgot about the franchise for a while and I only came back like last year
Ever since "Chat Blanc" and "Ephemeral," I gave up on Adrienette because the narrative just shows that the only way Marinette and Adrien can only be together if they know their identities. However, in every scenario, Hawkmoth ends up knowing both their identities and the world gets destroyed one way or another. With that in mind, it just feels like the writers never even wated them to date.
I read Archie comics growing up, and that was a somewhat messy love triangle with Archie, Betty, and Ronnie. (Before anyone asks, I can’t stand Riverdale) The miraculous love triangle just reminded me of the Archie comics.
And that season 5 ending with the lying…Marinette is now dishonest and perpetuating a completely false narrative. Also…what is she going to tell Cat Noir about the identity of Hawk Moth and the truth of how it all went down…as adrien, he will find out it was all a lie? This show makes no sense. This love story went from being slow and infuriating to absolutely toxic and fucked up…yet here I am…no intention to stop watching. Its like a car accident you cant look away from. I cant look away. Someone help me. Maybe thats why it lasts. We all are attracted to disaster.
It's the small crumpets we get each season that keep us going. Oblivio, Cat Blanc, The time traveling episodes where we see that Cat Noir and Ladybug are grown up and still doing the superhero thing, the time they're pressured by Dark Owl to De costume, the time Adrien tried for 3 whole months to make his new rewind time power work. The Luka episode where we learn Luka knows the identities of both. Each time we see a glimpse of what the romance could be, the love square finally over and the love finally fulfilled. But at what a devastating costs. Their love according to the writers can never be. So we sit, we watch and we hope that something, anything will happen in the romance department. The biggest issue is that when they show all these clips, they end so unsatisfyingly. Luka written out, reversed memory, paradoxical time travel with memory wipes. All just written so poorly that it's no wonder that we gobble up what we can and just pray that once, maybe just once they'll come through and write something satisfying for the viewer. In my opinion, I don't know if I'll go back to the show after watching the most recent movie. The movie gave me everything I wanted from the show. A proper romance between the two. A proper reveal. A satisfying conclusion to the Hawk Moth Saga. After seeing what could be, why would I go back to this unsatisfying mess of a show.
It’s a bit sad but the toxic love square is probably the more realistic conclusion. They both need different things from one another they’re prevented by circumstance. Honestly for the shows endgame they should have Chat and Ladybug at such great odds against each other it allows Hawk Moth to win and only after they reconcile can they save the day.
Something you didn't touch upon is how even when Marinette tries to stop and move on, the narrative won't let her by either resetting her by the next episode or by having the other characters (especially her friends and mainly Alya) encourage her and try to push her towards Adrien. They had MANY chances to not have her become a stalker. But they didn't. They didn't go with the "celebrity crush" or "falls in love with someone else and realizes what love is and how to act" routes they had already set up. But noooo the 13/14 y.o gotta be creepy. Chat Noir's "crush" devolved too quickly and ngl had no out to get better. Really wish they'd have gone with him having some sort of admiration/celebrity crush on Ladybug to parallel Marinette's. They like the ideal/forced to be perfect self but learn to love the other's true/current self. Ladrien would be them being awkward and forcing themselves to conform to the other's image of them while Marichat is them becoming friends, leaning on each other and talking about what bothers them (giving them both am opportunity to show depth) then realizing they love each other. It wasn't that hard to find a concept that works for a love square. Just like it wasn't that hard to find a way to convey good messages to young kids ("you shouldn't take on everything by yourself and make stress yourself" through Ladybug and "you don't have to bottle up your emotions and try to be perfect/conform to what adults want" through Adrien) but the show gotta be as shallow as can be with its beloved formula of "Marinette ALWAYS fucks up somehow even if it isn't actually her fault and Adrien is perfection incarnated even if he's in the wrong". How dare we want a decent show geared towards kids?! Surely, they don't have a brain to enjoy a show that has work and love put into it and isn't more superficial than Franklin! Kids shows in 2013 still tried to have a message in every episode or in the show as a whole. It's a fundamental aspect Miraculous somehow missed and my personal interpretation is that they simply didn't intend to make a kid's show and this is the result
Honestly I'd argue that they were never even friends to begin with. They were as friendly as one would be with a classmate and just use the term of "friend" Adrian might very well think of Marinette as a friend but in Marinette's case it just doesn't feel like she ever truly considers him her friend and just the object of her affection. She barely knows Adrian and not being able to really talk to him is not helping her case. Honestly rewatching the series the two barely have any meaningful interactions and the moment the writers chose to make Adrian realize he likes her was stupid!
Everyone who loves romance loves a Romeo and Juliet type love story hoping for a happy ending instead of a tragic one It helps that the animation is awesome
I don't have super-strong opinions on this, but I like the idea of pairing Adrien and Chloe. This does have the advantage of creating two arcs at once, so it's the sort of thing I would go for if I were writing this. I suck at writing romance arcs that are only romance arcs, so writing a romance arc that is also Chloe's redemption arc would suit me way better. Of course, this might go too far into the "I can fix her" territory, which I try to avoid. Maybe I could avoid that by having them be just friends for a while, only falling in love with each other after Chloe has made significant progress. Hm. ...I'm not actually going to write that fanfic. It's just that I'm a writer and this is how I muse about stories.
huh....I actually ship more chloe x luka in that regard... since luka can look into people and can be soothing and not judgmental and can be easy to talk to and can be more mature but also lowkey has his own parent issues. ...though mostly because it feels like chloe's crush on adrien never felt like a actual romantic crush..and more because she was scaredto lose him and nino took her best friend spot...so in hierchy being his girlfriend could sooth her that adrien wouldn't leave and give her a better advantage to keep others away...it didnt really feel like a romantic thing between them. though that said we know adrien DOES admire people who are honest and blunt with themselves and both ladybug and chloe can have tempers and they have known eachother forever... though honestly as her friend(or ex friend by this point) I kindof wish he did more to help her...especially when they had parallels in the show with losing people. or could even point to maybe chloe being his inspiration for chat noir's confidence
Queen Bee with a Secret identity is what the show should have for it's eventual reboot the show need to be a threesome to keep it more fresh and dynamic, Marinette isn't an interesting sole focus for the show as is. as she doesn't do much. She's a bland every woman character. But she also does things people in as vicarious bent wouldn't do. (like throw Cat into a Dustbin for example)
personally her throwing him in the bin wasnt the problem as that felt cartoony and he was getting in the way. it was the kicking the bin over part that felt kindof uncomfortable...though they are in suits that protect themselves and they both have literaly been thrown off roofs. though honestly why do people focus on the bin part rather than the fact she was chill with having a guy she knows was crushing on her help her practice confessing for another guy even after tikki brought up that something about that feels off? and how she literally kindof forgot he would take her feelings seriously and she didnt seem that upset about the situation earlier later on with ow she was hanging out with him and chatting while he was still worried he had crossed boundaries and seriously made her uncomfortable. like on one hand it shows her issue was more with the city and he was just the straw that broke the camels back in that moment becasue he couldnt read the mood and she honestly doesnt mind/care that mch about his crus most of the time which gave me some relief and ut helped show once and for all that he really would be horrified if she really was uncomfortable with it the times she doesn't take it in banter. on the other it made her kindof insensative?(which is a consistant character flaw that I do Like as in find really interesting for her to have)..like when adrien says just a friend (which we know is his geninely highest compliment and not him dismissing potential of romance and more just describing what she is) or when he asked her advice with kagami or told her about the girl he liked who doesnt think he's funny....he at least doesnt KNOW about her feelings and any hurt is accidental and we know he's feel terrible if he knew he hurt her in some way without realizing. but marinette legit knows she is his crush and decides its fine if chat helps her practice to confess to cheer up another boy just becuase chat doesnt know he'd be helping his crush get together with someone else....like I LOVE the marichat interaction there and I actually do like the irony of all these little build up stuff on mari's end(mostly becasue Iif mari ever has a realization its going to hit her like a brick and she'll be horrified she was that blind/insensative while adrien would probably find it funny)...but it definitly doesn't paint mari in the most sensative light when it comes to caring about his feelings...though to be fair she is kindof insensative in general about people who have crushes on her which...on one hand she doesnt owe them anything... on the other it IS a bit of a dick move to have someone you know has a crush on you helping you get with someone else after you berated them for joking about you and them as a couple around a akuma you literaly had pretended to be a couple in the past to defeat!@@90lancaster though honestly the irony is a little funny..like when she assumed chat was trying to ger her jealous but we know he was actually feeling genuine feelings for kagami and WASN't trying to get her jealous that time and how she had pushed him amd kagami together herself...and how she assumed his friendship flower was him doing a work around to give her a romantic flower when in fact it was a genuine freindship appreciation flower X'D.
honestly though....have you not noticed that marinette and chloe actually have quite a few parallels? and i dont just mean that they both have gotten a bunch of people akumatized. honestly i feel like chloe might show up in that spin off in newyork they are planning. though what if they do a switcharoo where we end up seeing chloe is reedeemable and see the issues with gabe and andre(her dad) pointed out? I think the issue though is marinette isnt a bad character...its that she works best bouncing off people. though imagine of chloe's sister gives chloe the bee again herself and chloe gets a redesign of her outfit like catwalker? i still really want adriien to help chloe redeem herself.@@90lancaster
Feel free to correct me, I haven't rewatched season one in a year or so, but i feel like both characters weren't so grabage. Cat noir was more of a flirty annoyance and i feel like mairenette wasnt insane yet. They genuinely had so much to work with, and yet they decided to make both characters irredeemable and the romance laughable. While the movie wasn't perfect, it was so much better. Adrienette was barley there, but ladynoir was done so well imo. The point of the love square is to convince the audience that they love each other in BOTH FORMS because they're "destined soulmates" or whatever. I feel like you could tell that ladybug genuinely felt attracted to cat noir, AND CAT NOIR GENUINELY RESPECTED HER. He asked he not to leave, BUT ALSO LET HER LEAVE. It would be different if the show actually portrayed their toxic behaviors as bad and ALWAYS gave them repercussions for it. In cat noir's case, i would almost be ok if they explained his actions with his sheltered childhood, ONLY if he gets told off, learns why its wrong, and makes effort to change. It wouldn't be ideal, especially in a show on kids channels, but it would be a heck of a lot better. It's insane how Felix, a character who's supposed to be a sympathetic villain/antihero/morally grey antagonist,has a better relationship than our main duo. Kagami calls out his crap, which he really didn't seem to think was wrong, he doesn't excuse himself, he just apologizes, and never does it again. Its not that hard.
I feel like the overlap between the canon ships and fanon ships is a very, very thin sliver for borrowing names/superhero ideas/world/looks of characters. The Miraculous Fandom(TM) with what it's produced is honestly more incredible IMHO. That said, I do feel like the game-changer of Luka and Kagami would have been better handled by, hm, better writers. The one interesting thing in the secondary genre of this show aaaaaand completely wiped after 2 episodes because Status Quo is everything to this show.
It really is wild how terribly written this show is and how much we all love it and will never stop watching it. They know they can do anything they want with this show for that reason
Tbh i think that on the side of chat noir a lot of the whole calling ladybug out is just about how he's treated in general, and not just the romance, like up to now cat noir is ignored and left in the dark by the narrative and consequently by ladybug. That doesn't he doesn't come off as a bit creepy almost as equal to marinette's stalking, but it's definitely a general writing issue
I think the success comes of the fact that there were no better alternative. A story to me successful only needs to be better than the similar style stories of its time. Action and romance are in a love and hate relationship in storytelling as both needs much screentime to be good and so they fight for the precious screentime. The best stories out there often lean to favor one over the other in the end, not being able to give 50%-50% attention to both. In 20 min episodes Miraculus tried to do the impossible, giving action and romance equal footing and due to the time limit of one episode, it eventually failed telling the story well. It was just told well enough given the absence of similar 50% action and 50% romance shows. Also they streched out the status quo too much, trying to defend the point of the ships not being able to develop without the world crumbling at the same time. The movie had so much better pacing but the runtime was too short there. The whole Agreste Arc I feel would have worked the best in 3 seasons of 30 min episodes. With first season ending with the introduction of the peacock, the second with a Chat Blank episode and the third having Lady Justice at its mid point and the final battle with both heroes facing Hawkmoth. In terms of romance the first season is our lovely square, second season is where Luka and Kagami are introduced and win by the season final, these ships last till the Lady Justice episode where we get back to standard love square and having a reveal at the end of the show.
I think you're 100% correct I think the problem with the romance in the show is the pacing of the show. The problem is they don't want Marinette or cat Noir before season for changing how they feel about each other what's the season finale because God forbid they have an actual Ark over multiple stories or show the episodes in order
The show is also HIGHLY rewarded for mediocracy (or even worse), compared to its well written episodes that don't score as well. Take Chat Blanc. In terms of good writing, character consistency, and the way it completely erases itself through time travel, it is one of the worst episodes in the show. I could probably write an hour-long video essay about why it sucks, but I won't go into it. It's also used as the main excuse for why Ladybug shelfs Chat Noir, when they're meant to be a DUO, a TEAM, and it's long term implications are used as an excuse to absolve Ladybug of criticism for the way she treats Chat Noir in later episodes (similarly how the show threw in a Kim backstory for Marinette to justify her stalker behaviour and say that anyone who still criticises her despite her woe backstory are bigots). AND YET, WITHIN THE FANDOM ITSELF, IT IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE SHOWS *BEST EPISODES*. IT IS THE SHOWS HIGHEST RATED EPISODE. The production crew knows it doesn't need to try and can leave loose ends because they know the fandom will still eat everything up, and even PRAISE it when it does so. All they need to do is throw the fandom some poetic crumbs od a semblance of a poorly-written romance and the fandom screams with joy. It's ridiculous.
But remember it's also show for kids. I not lie, i like Chat Blanc and S3 is my fav season but still there was better even in romance sense written, like "Desperada". And don't worry, soon it will be 10 years and miracolous would fall from popularity.
They know how to end it, they just don’t know how to continue it in a satisfying way. So since they want to keep making the show that’s what happens. I doubt they wasn’t thinking of much more than a season ahead at a time. I have watched this show for a long time and it’s one of the things where I just think. It’s for the sake of being episodical. Another thing that really bothers me is how everyone know the akumas are because of negative emotions and Chloe is still there. They even try to deal with it from the schools side, but they just can’t connect the dots. I wonder if Pars would do something about mental health and deal with people like Chloe if Ladybug didn’t fix all of the damage afterwards
I somewhat agree with you, but I'd like to point these few things out. 1. Narrative Pacing: While it's true that the pacing of the romance has been slow, it could also be argued that this slow development has allowed for more tension and anticipation to build up among the fans. The creators might have intentionally taken their time to develop the relationship in order to make the eventual payoff more impactful. Additionally, some viewers might appreciate the fact that the show has taken the time to establish the characters' individual lives and struggles before delving into their romantic relationship. 2. Character Complexity: You've have shown some negative aspects of the characters' behaviors, but it's important to remember that characters in a story, like real people, can have flaws and make mistakes. I know that some people will say that: ohh no that is true, but Marinette is still a stalker. Yes, but you have to consider this too. It can make them relatable and realistic. Marinette's actions might come across as obsessive, but they also showcase her vulnerability and insecurity. Adrian's behavior might seem pushy at times, but it's also indicative of his struggles to cope with his dual identity and feelings of isolation. He was locked up in that house his whole life for gods sake. In the end, while there are certainly flaws in the love square people love it. Change my mind! The show's popularity shows that it has managed to capture the interest and imagination of a significant audience, even if it doesn't align with everyone's preferences for romantic storytelling you have to say that they have created something unique. I mean, squeezing 4 ships out of 2 people is kind of nuts. Thanks for reading this, if anyone ever reads this lol
Excusing Marinette's stalker actions as a sign of how vulnerable and insecure she is isn't great and if they wanted Marinette to feel insecure or vulnerable about being in a relationship, she doesn't have to show that by stalking. The concept of Derision does have promise to explain Marinette's past but it's executed so poorly and in season five? That episode would've worked fine in season one.
My take is its popular because it has so much wasted potential, and so badly written people feel like they need to create/read a lot of fan content to cope in a way.
Here’s the thing about the love Square/Diamond. I’ve never really been bothered by these, but Marinette specifically is the worst part of it. And don’t get me started on the goddamn Love Dodecahedron after Season 5.
It's kinda funny that the when they reveal their identities and start to date, the reason it ends is always marinette's fault and because of her obsession with Adrian
I not lie, propably most favourite thing for me in the show was love square. Yea the fights was good and the story was interesting, especially Agreste Arc, but it was nothing we not see. But the love square oh boy, it was one of funniest ships i see in any media. And i usually don't like romances. Love square was not only funny, but also made for fandom creativity. It not suprise me that people like the show because sudden you had 4 hypotetical ships and fandom just present how many this can give for fanfics, comics and whatever can get into mind of artist. Oh not only love square, for Adrien you have also Lila, Chloe and Kagami, and for Mari Nino and Nathaniel (first season) and next Luka. But with time it was take bad. Jut like many other things in show. I don't really want to talk about Marinette stalker or Chat "no mean no", but only with timing. It take only 8 years and 5 seasons to finally take some advance in protagonist relationship. Damn, some people start to watch this as kids and wait to adult to see where it go... and yea, it goes somwhere. And it should go in S4, when Marinette and Adrien learn that Luka and Kagami were good, but they not meant for each other. Then in S4 reveal and Hawkmoth conclusion. But then no, not only no hero reveal (if that was anime then heroes would propably know after 1 season) but also hmm i not mind how chemistry look between Mari and Adi in S5, but also I cannot say it not see somewhat fast forward. And it also not suprise me, because proprably producers realise "hey, show now after neraly 10 years old, but we end main story and finalize romance..." am willing to bet pearls against peanuts that Miracolous would start to loose its popularity. I cannot remember west cartoon shows who get that popular or be aired that long. Adventure time, Steven Universe, Gumball, MLP:FIM, and FIM had propably greatest fandom at some time, that could rivalise Star Wars for some years (even today still are made ponymeets in Poland and it's nothing small or rare). Miracolous lost momentum year ago in rush for still want hold "when they kiss" and "Gabe finale". I could say this show still has potential with things Mari lie to Adrien about Gabriel, Adrien learn he Sentie and even Adrien villain turn, but I think writers would ruin in still want present Marinette Sue as best as can. And it's sad for me cuz the fanfics show even after learn their ID and start relationship it could still be interesting.
I completely agree with you about about this love plot nonsense. They have kept us fans waiting 9 years to watch these two finally get together and in my personal opinion I lost interest in it at the end of S3. They made Chloe into an out of control jerk, they added Marinette's trauma story in S5 out of no where to justify her stalking behavior, they make her a almost complete Mary Sue, completely ignoring her flaws and in my mind painting her as a narcissist who thinks that everything she does is okay as long as it makes Adrien happy and keeps Paris safe from Gabriel. The main purpose of S4 was to show off the other miraculous heroes that are, like you've mentioned before, pawns on a chessboard to fight the Akuma villains, and the arc wraps up with Marinette failing to stop the universe from getting destroyed by a wish which was that started all of this in the beginning and just living happily ever with her boyfriend in a world created from her own failure. I could go on and on but the main point is they believed that this show could keeps us drawn in with these constant battle episodes hoping that we will just ignore the boring main plot. I am seriously hoping for big changes in the next arc or I'm dropping this show for good.
1:20 Thats because the show is aimed at kids and kids don't really care about good writing. When you are a kid stuff goes over your head and you just want pretty colors. When you get more cognitive you start to care about plot holes and stuff like that. Also Riverdale has poor writing ( so I have heard) and that show did super well so I'm not sure adults care that much about good writing either.
People like the concept of the show more and the fan made elements more. There is a lot of projection by fans on the characters. Persoanlly i no longer care for the love square as presented in the show
Honestly I'm hoping with season 6 the writers focus on other relationships maybe take a break from the square maybe focus on stuff we need maybe a marthaniel or julerose episode, like season 5 I feel was focused just around the square
I don’t know but I honestly think yeah it may seem creepy Marinette’s behavior with Adrien but honestly that’s how a lot of girls are at least when going through crushes in middle and high school. What is the thing that every girl makes a reference about? That one person that can work for the FBI bc they find out things about the family and what not on social media bc they’re looking for and stalking the boy they have a crush on. I know no one might agree with that but it’s true and does have quite often. Not only that but the way Chat acts with Ladybug is kinda how boys behave with girls when they keep going after them even though the girl clearly doesn’t want anything to do with him. It does happen. Glorifying it and showing kids that watch the show that it’s okay to behave like that is completely different though that’s just not okay bc it’s weird and creepy but just saying it does happen lol
I got to say Marinette definitely feels like realistic to me when look at my girl friends celeb crushes since yeah it's a phase that ends but the only people that will ever be like Marinette as an older person are either just in a phase or Tick Tock destroyed them and will phase out of it back into a common sence person eventually be what I would say is normal. Man it's weird that this show feels so realistic sometimes. Also your points are very valid it's just normal people will always see Marinette as a prime example of what not to be in romance since it's a full blown meme at this point.
I really really hated the marinette backstory episode. Like, if you try to say Marinette is creepy people are like, “B-b-b-b-b-b-but in that one episode we find out marinette is that way because of Kim and Chloe and she’s traumatised!!!!1!!1!1!” Like ok Thomas just wants us to sympathise with a creep and get rid of any possibility of a Chloe redemption
I hope Jeremy zag undoes Astructs shit like that bish sexualized marinette and she is like 14-15-16 but after seeing the movie I'm curious to see the rest of the seasons. But bro out of NOWHERE there is an episode 27!? But I stan the show and I feel like it resembles Fnaf is some way
Out of the whole love square… I think we as a community can all agree that Adrienette, LadyNoir, and MariChat are all number 1 of the love square. And Ladrien is last… actually I wouldn’t even rate ladrien. Nobody likes ladrien… Nobody…
in fact , all love couples except Adrinette are already dead and have ceased to exist, so they can safely go to the abyss to ladrien (which by the way a lot of people love , if you are not familiar with the whole community)
I've read a few ladies fanfics, watched a few animations and read some comics all based on Ladrien. Yeah no, there are people who likes the ship. And there are some who made the ship alive in season 1-2 quit because they learnt of the toxicity. (Even some used the toxicity for their stories and it was still better than the show)
At least Adrien took the consent workshop by the time adrienette ship started. He doesn't push too far with marinette, like he did with ladybug as marinette. So when things get awkward between the two, cuz adrien doesn't know how far to push or when to stop or that he apologises not understanding the core reasons why marinette keeps pushing him away...its cute. Because he isn't just being completely obssessive (like with ladybug), but slightly infatuated. Decreasing, but not completely gone to the point it would feel OOC. And it is true that marinette did try to change from being a literal stalker... but the writers kinda made it look like 'not stalking' is a bad thing. Especially that episode with Felix and the red moon. That the reason marinette didn't notice is because she decided to trust her bf, and wasn't stalking adrien anymore. 🤮
It blows my fucking mind that the show is five seasons in and they still don't know the other's identity. Like wtf. I didn't stick around after the first season and I'm kinda glad lol
One of my issues with this ship is how EVERYONE in universe (who isn't an antagonist) ships these two to a excessive degree. In season 5 and the New York special when Marinette is trying to get over her crush (character development) but Alya is basically like "nope you love Adrien, end of story" (I will acknowledge she learned a lesson in that season 5 episode). Speaking of the New York special two random teens think "they're made for each other" despite barely knowing them. And like it's not even that some people don't care either they're for it or against it (though I could be wrong feel free to.correct me)
![ประสบการณ์ จ้าง Developer ที่ผมจะไม่มีวันลืม [ภาค1]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bzivN4KDg-k/mqdefault.jpg)
Honestly, Marinette's stalker behavior turned me against Adrienette, and "Chat Blanc" and "Ephemeral" didn't help, since it felt like the writers didn't want it, either.
Mhn
Isn't anyone going to talk about oblivo in the whole identity reveal thing
but after watching the 14th episode, after a mental trauma, I understood Marinette's behavior, yes, this does not justify her, but still Adrien helps Marinette somehow cope with this problem, helping not only Marinette, but helps herself develop better in relationships, because he also received a mental trauma while sitting at home, and so far has little understanding of this world.
@@virnalassiter382 To be fair, I can't remember every episode we got trolled on. But yes, Oblivio sucked as it did nothing for Adrienette or Ninya
@OpticalSorcerer ugh I remember fangirling over the oblivio spoiler thinking that it was the actual reveal
I think the reason the love square is still as popular as ever is largely due to the fanbase creations and the early seasons, there are many many many animatics, fanfics, fanart pieces heck even songs about different forms of their romantic relationship dynamics
Early on the canon established Marinette as a kind of clingy but overall still good and shy girl, not yet a full on stalker. Similarly Chat Noir was kind of sassy and flirty but didn't come off as creepy as he did in later seasons
People got attached to this more early writing form of the characters and created headcanons as well as full on fanfic universes that are honestly way better than any romantic progression we get in the actual show
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head; so many fans agree that the writers don’t do the show justice and have collectively said “if you won’t do it well, I’ll do it myself”
There are so many rewrite projects and fix-it’s that in some circles of the fan base the canon of the show just doesn’t matter; they took the concept of the show and ran with it
Cat noir is not creepy.
@@topgame2645 Perhaps not, but he was really pushy in the earlier seasons before S5 and maybe S4 fixed his problem.
@@toastysweaters5692 no
Yea I see the love square was made especially for fans to made fanfics, comics etc, and fanbase always love things like that. Or just made unintentionally but go that way. And yea, in first season Mari and Adrien were have not that bad vibes which go in next seasons.
I propably stop interest in serial when wait for S4. Just basically start to read fics and comics... and i nearly regret not stop being in fandom just for fanfics, because last two seasons was like spit to my face by producers.
I don’t know if this is a hot take or not, but I feel like the time travel episodes exposed how insecure the writers were regarding people criticizing the romance.
It felt a bit like the writers were sick of people pestering them about the slow burn and said “Fine, here’s your reveal. Uh oh, it caused the end of the world twice. Now shut up about.”
I dunno, just a thought.
Bro that's not a hot take that's a fact
@@OthandoSimamane-ss1xp okay so I’m not crazy. I just never hear anyone talk about it
Literally bro.
@noah_j_mc no we talked about it. Especially for ephemeral we just got tired of repeating the same thing.
(Something the show can't do😞 )
@@akeelahbruce1821 ah I see. I must’ve joined after all that then. Thanks
If both Marinette and Cat Noir’s creepy tendencies were framed as a flaw that they could help each other overcome, or better yet, receive outside help from people who are in a relationship (I.e. Ivan and Mylene, Nino and Alya) they could learn what it means to be in a healthy relationship, also sending a good message to kids. The moment they get together would feel even more satisfying that way.
Why cat noir is creepy?
He's not.
@@topgame2645 yea he was, he not take "no means no". He was not so stalker like Mari, but should know when to pass.
Better, just think if Kagami or Luka teach them and show what mistake's they take. It could also be a good took for series, Mari try not to act like stalker and Chat not to be a abuser toward LB.
@@Shimospeher So what? it's not a sign of creepiness. he's been locked up at home for 15 years and he's bad at relationships. so he couldn't let go of ladybug like his mother.😒
@@topgame2645 his behaviour towards ladybug throughout the show is jarring. He’s allowed to like her, but constant flirting and throwing an attitude when she rejects him is weird. Guys who do this in real life are weird! Sadly this is never addressed and his behaviour is seen as cute/funny
It’s crazy because technically, without plot armor, Lukanette and Adrigami (arguably) are still better for each of them.
my boy Luka got so much dirt D: They literally Thanos snap him.
I feel like Kagami needs to work on her social/people skills a bit more before being with Adrien. She feels a bit too aggressive with him.
Dame I just don't understand if Zoe gotten a lot of hate for only existing to be chole's replacement why don't kagmi and Luka get any hate for only existing as temporary love interests for the main characters I mean if chole remained queen bee Zoe wouldn't have to exist if Marinette had Adrian became a couple earlier we wouldn't even need Luka and kagmi I kind of wish they came as love guides for them instead
@@virnalassiter382 I think it's because Kagami and Luka never replaced Marinette and Adrien as characters; once Zoe came in, Chloe was intended to be forgotten by the writers.
@@OpticalSorcererShe's blunt with him. Not aggressive.
This is (once again) something the movie handled way better. None of this constant beating around the bush! Now all the upcoming sequels have to do is expand on it. Something that can't be hard because (unlike the show)they were able to know each other's identities by the end of the first movie.
I too look forward the sequels. Because we can maybe get a half point break-up. Maybe something happen and they break up. Atleast until the end where they get together again. Or maybe they meet Kagami and Luka and don't get together at the end and just become friends. Then in sequels after they can maybe realize that they still love eachother and finally get together. Just what I think
maybe because the movie lasts only an hour and a half?🙄
@joeljohansson3615 well I'm not looking forward to the next movie because thanks to everyone making a fuss about chole not getting a redemption arc I have a very bad feeling that she's going to end up having one in the sequel as well returning as queen bee ha if we do end up having queen bee in the next movie I'll want a 3 qual were Zoe takes over the whole queen bee thing makes me wish that we only had ladybug and cat noir it's so odd that adrinette haters think that Adrian doesn't deserve marinette for stalking him when he's a love stalker himself and he can't handle her with other boys he may not sabotage them like she's doing to the girls he's with but my goodness and he abused his powers as well and the adunice only grounds ladybug for it and I really hate how the Fandom claims that Marinette never gets consequences for her actions duh her parents grounded her for skipping class and even though they should have punished her believing she didn't do what Lila framed her for at least she would have gotten what she deserved if she did actually do what Lila said she did and they also say she never gives cat noir a chance okay she may don't him sometimes but who can blame her if cat noir is being so dumb and annoying her? And if she always douted him she wouldn't accept him as her partner she just reject him trying to comfort her and even though she really got on my nerves begging for him to come at least it proves that she may have a little trust in him
Yes, the movie hand that better and i not only talk about they learn their ID and Gabe. After nearly a decade propably everyone want to see a good chemistry between heroes and damn, movie look like some good fanfic story.
I know I'm a month late, but I have to disagree which PAINS me bc the movie did so many other things better.
But Adrien still rejects Marinette until he finds out she's LB. That just comes off hella shallow of him and I would hope the sequel(s?) could fix this...but I'm not really seeing how :/
The only reason I still stick around is to see how they end up together, its the biggest part of the show really
Well, since the Miraculous movie ended with Marinette and Adrien revealing their identities and getting together, even though it's a different retelling of the Miraculous show, it still achieved that goal where Marinette and Adrien revealed their identities and got together.
So in a way you did see Marinette and Adrien end up together in the end.
The show has gotten them together eventually in season 5 but it's still slightly dragged on as they don't know each other's identities and the soon to come conflicts created by Lila as the future Hawkmoth, so yeah, you might be waiting a while for Adrien and Marinette to get their happy ending in the show.
I would say that the love square was funny and cute at first but then they overdid it and after that it took up more time than the plot's development and character development and was just overkill sometimes.
There were times where personally it felt a little like they were inserting love square situations where it had no relevance to the story and overshadowed the plot's focus a bit.
Nothing against them but they really overdid it a bit with the love square.
Yeah I kind of miss marinette being awkward around Adrian it kind of made her a funny girl and when I say I miss ladynoir I don't mean I miss cat noir flirting with ladybug but I do miss ladybug almost falling for cat noir the love square reverse is the most wasted pontial in the entire show we have waited for 4 seasons for ladybug to relazie her feelings for cat noir and it only lasted for 4 fucking episodes it should have lasted at least 10 or 11 more episodes and Adrian really only has his eyes on Marinette in season 5 after all this seasons he has seen her as "just a friend" he doesn't even take advantage that ladybug is finally looking up to him the way he did to her did he really fall out of love for ladybug or he's just blind by his love for Marinette? Come on yes she's been a huge jerk to him for 4 seasons and ignored all last season but come on no matter how many times she's rejected you you really wanted her that badly ha I think he's still blind
I was a marichat shipper do to the fact that one Mariette wasn't a stalker and genuinely starting growing a friendship with Chat Noir instead of a crush with friendship growing after and still being obsessive and how Chat Noir sure was playful but never saw Marinette as less then and took the time to understand her. That's why I like Marichat the way the show made Ladrien was just them having feelings but could never open up bout it. Then Adrienette being seen as Marinettes stalking and Ladynoir with Chat Noir being the "nice guy" and with the aspect of Marinette seeing herself being her true self as Marinette and Adrien seeing his true self as Chat Noir makes it more harsh cause if the reversal never happened then the problem of them not having feelings for who they really are would come up.
I LOVE MARICHAT
I never shipped Marichat romantically but they 100% should've had more scenes together. I Love seeing them as friends bc they can talk to each other naturally and are comfortable with each other
If you think about it, Ladybug doesn’t actually need Cat Noir or his powers, because she can just break the akumatized object herself and capture the akuma.
Which means that Cat Noir literally only exists to carry on the plot for this show.
Cat Noir better get more screen time next season, because they did him dirty by not including him the final battle against Hawkmoth in Season 5.
Facts!
We like literally don't have to watch the season's now, Smarty Pants just told all of it in one video 💀
Personally, I find the problem with Marinette's Stalker with a Crush tendencies to be that they kept going at it for too long. Admittedly, it's a trope that's begun to fall out of fashion during the last ten years (thankfully) because now we recognise it as creepy rather than funny or endearing, especially if it happens in real life.
With that in mind, it could be argued that the writers themselves were disconnected from reality in that respect, that they weren't as aware of the fact that the trope was overused and falling out of favour by the time the show premiered in 2015. You could say that sort of "explains" or maybe even "justifies" that they included it at all.
However, they really should have moved on from that a long time ago. Just like if they wanted to justify Marinette's actions as a response to a traumatic event, perhaps they should have explained it sooner rather than wait seven years to assassinate Kim's character in one foul swoop. In a way, this can also be tied back to the pacing problem you mentioned.
I don't know if I'm alone on this one, but for the longest time it sort of felt like Adrien and Marinette were only friends in name. Yes, there were heartwarming moments where Adrien was shown to care for her and Marinette chose to put his happiness before her romantic feelings, but for most of the show, they barely interact or hang out unless it's tinted under a romantic light. Which robs their relationship of any natural progression before falling in love.
If they had just allowed Marinette and Adrien to truly grow close as friends before ending up together, Marinette could have moved on from her stalkerish tendencies after getting to know the real Adrien from interacting with him. While Adrien, aside from gaining another much needed friend, could have grown protective of her if they'd kept her backstory canon and introduced it early on in the story rather than at the very end of their first major story thread.
That way, you have Marinette growing past one of her biggest flaws and learning to see Adrien as a person first and boyfriend material second, and Adrien learning to put his foot down regarding Chloé sooner while also slowly developing feelings for Marinette in a way that feels more organic.
omg that would have been amazing
You probably have to account cat noir's flaw's like not taking no for an answer and having to stop his constant flirting and advances.
@@leopoldosoto779 No, that was definitely a problem as well. Mainly because the writers refused to treat it as an actual flaw. I was just focusing on the Adrienette angle when I posted the original comment.
@@paus.8429 fair enough.
The romance between the 2 was the cherry on top for me absolutely despising the season 5 finale and majority of the show.
The love story between Adrien and Marinette took far, far too long, and it just became creepier each passing episode.
And on top of that, season 6 is probably gonna continue the romance between them but with Marinette keeping a bunch of secrets about Adrien’s family and his overall existence.
Yikes forever.
Man, Marinette’s face in the thumbnail. She’s gonna eat my soul.
When it comes to romance, this show forgets how logic works
the sad thing is, we waited so long for adrienette and when it happens they kinda lose their chemistry 😐
Be honest they had more chemistry as just friends then anything else. Adrigami and Lukanette had it all but was shot down with flamethrower.
Everyone have a blessed Monday August 28, 2023 at 10:16AM. 🔥🌸🔥🌸
I would have liked Ladynoir even if they we're the same people. At least they had more chemistry. Which is saying something...
@@cheyennecedeno6867Exactly! Adrienette should've just stayed as friends!
@@DFeligamiAdrizoeSworaDennisFan
Hey hope your Monday is well. I'm still writing my Adrigami/Lukanette fanfictions.
Of course instead of a toxic forced love story. A slow burn annoys me but even that concept is fine as long it gets somewhere eventually.
Everyone have a blessed Monday August 28, 2023 at 11:26AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥🌸
@@cheyennecedeno6867Thanks. My Monday is going pretty well. Just trying to get used to the weather changing.
The main leads' worst traits are mostly a result of season 1 being an episodic romantic comedy that forgot that you can ditch those jokes when you got to the more serious part of the romance.
But those are the only Jokes Thomas knows, that and ones that involve Marinette touching Adrien's chest and falling over.
In the future seasons, Cat Noir better start getting more recognition, more screen-time, and more characters or else I won’t forgive this show
@@StrawberryStar7He was treated like fucking shit in season 4 and the end of season 5! Stop using the D word! I will not repeat myself again.
@@StrawberryStar7 You wouldn't even think of him as a deuteragonist with how little he gets in terms of wins. Not being the protagonist isn't an excuse to treat his character like the writers do since there are tons of deuteragonists who are actually treated as such, some of my favorites being Mabel from Gravity Falls, Richie/Gear from Static Shock, Ingrid from Filmore, as well as Katara and Sokka from ATLA. And what makes it worse for Miraculous is the fact that these shows which gave their deuteragonists ample amounts of all the good stuff, were all at least half as long, Filmore and Gravity Falls were only 2 seasons, ATLA was 3, and I think Static Shock was too.
what does screen time have to do with it?
@@StrawberryStar7 Wow, I didn't even know about that!!
@@StrawberryStar7 There can absolutely be multiple protagonists in a show. By definition, a protagonist is "the leading character OR ONE OF THE MAJOR CHARACTERS in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional piece." But you are right in that the title character does not necessarily have to also be one of the protagonists. After all, Dracula is the antagonist of his story, and in Disney and Pixar's "Coco," the title character is the protagonist's great-grandmother.
I agree, plus I feel like the backstory with kim was shoved in the story as an afterthought. Why would Marinette be fine giving a miraculous to Kim with the spider thing in mind, or at least why did she not give it a second thought. This is all to say it felt like the writers saw that the community was giving Marinette flack for this so they pulled a reason out of their collective ass to explain, whilst using the only conventionally attractive male they had.
Correction Marinette never gave the miraculous to Kim. Master fu chose Kim because all the other people in party had already gotten a miraculous and he was the only one at the party. And as to why she gave it to Kim is because Master fu gave it to him just like how he gave her and catnoir the cat and the bug miraculous. And he was the guardian of the miracle box at the time. So it kinda makes sense and marinette doesn’t talk to Kim that much plus her fear is not Kim giving her spiders but the harassment of chloe she even said that it was Chloe’s fault not Kim. Plus Kim was always a jokester and I would see him do that to Marinette.
He just fits the Monkey personality.
It definitely was, as well as Soqueline's introduction. They couldn't use Alya for this episode, so they created a new one. Real cheap
Plus, this episode retcons dark cupid. Why would Marinette help the guy who "traumatized" her get with her bully ? It doesn't make sense
I can explain Marinette giving him Monkey Miraculous but keeping Derision in mind I for the love of God can't explain why Marinette would be supportive of Kim confessing to Chloe in Dark Cupid given what happened in Derision
Also Dark Blade episode revealed that Kim is afraid of spiders and that's what Chloe blackmailed him with so the whole prank in Derision doesn't make sense
So the whole episode doesn't fit the show
@@Mimi_UAE09 facts
Being an adult (21) fan is so surreal and disheartening sometimes. I babysit sisters, and their older sister is 16. She was home while I was watching the girls and we started talking about ML since the girls were watching it. She started saying things like, "Yea but you have to imagine, I was a kid when I first started watching it, so that's why I like it." As if that's her justification and she's better than me.
Uhhhhh girl. Me too! I was 13-14 maybe? I was definitely Mari's age or younger. I was around when it was just the beginning of season 1, before Origins.
It's been around so long that new new fans are getting into it and "new fans" are starting to get older and are forgetting adult fans (OGs) were originally preteens/kids too. It's crazy!
You're right for sure! Spoilers up ahead...
Season 5 ruined the square for me(not that it was ever good but it was at the vrry least entertaining)because Marinette is lying to his face about the fact that his father is a terrorist, and then who even cares about Cat Noir anymore?
Season 3 soured me towards the love square and glaciator 2 the scene where ladybug throws cat noir in the trash can ruined the love square entirely
And cat noir has always gotten the short end of the stick
I started to watch Miraculous as a child and now i am an adult, and i am still waiting for them to discover each other identity. This is soooo frustrating.
2025 (if you are lucky)
I couldn't agree more
Back when I was a BIG miraculous ladybug fangirl I took a year long break from MLB after watching that AWFUL season 3 and when I came back I missed nothing romance related
I would also turn off some episodes just because I was uncomfortable with Marinette's creepy behaviour and that fact she's "traumatized" doesn't change that
LIKE IF YOU MAKE A 10 YEAR OLD UNCOMFORTABLE AT SOMETHING WHICH IS SUPPOSED TO BE "CUTE" THEN YOU KNOW YOU MESSED UP
now its even worse cus now shes literally liying to him about HIS FATHER and omg shes just a AWFUL girlfriend
Exactly!
Yeah I agree that it took way too long for the romance to happen and when it showed I wasn't into it. For the Love Square, I can find better fan fiction stories where they establish each ship and not be complicated. Heck even with different Marinette ships
Yep. True.
Yeah... I think dragging out as long as they did built the hype way too much and then just kept dragging it until it kinda crashed. There was a pretty low chance of it ever living up to the fans expectations after so many seasons of will-they-won't-they shenanigans.
Never mind the fact that it just isn't the greatest example of writing.
Yea they basicaly kill the thrill after 8 years, it feel for me at some point that relation between them would never happen. And for show that roll around romance and hero thing (which suprise is also romantic)...
Hell i would propably better love this show if in S4 they know who they are and act like lovely doofus.
What I dislike about the explanations given for their behavior, is that instead of just having them go through natural character development & improving their characters, they just explain why they are the way they are, and that’s the end of it.
Like, now that we know the reason behind their behavior, it’s all good & they don’t have to change them any.
The way Cat Noir used to act around Ladybug was enough to make me want to see the show canceled.
And now people are simping over him. Crazy how things turn out 💀
@@Imperial304These Chat Noir Simps Are Crazy (but I cant mind them cuz It would make me look like a hypocrite)
@@Imperial304 in the end everyone turns into dimitri trash
Yeah I realised how obsessive he used to be but atleast he's not as bad as Marinette. And he was sheltered so it would explain his extreme actions(not justify it) besides he does seem better now anyways
He never acted that way around kagami tho he only did it around ladybug and no one eals and merranet did not know adrein was into somone eals aka ladybug but he knew she was into someone eals and did care
I gave up on those two since the end of season 3 they took too long to make them be together the chemistry they use to have isn't really there anymore because the show drags it out for too long when they got together I was like whatever Felix and Kagami being together got me more existed.
As a fan of Miraculous since season 4, I noticed how slow the main love story progressed slowly as I binged seasons 1-3 to get ready for season 4. I wished they did more with Marinette's romantic relationship with Luka and Adrien's romantic relationship with Kagami, like have a season where they were with their respective paramores until close to the end of the season. Then have Adrienette start up again while Lady Noir gets complicated. I swear the writers are like to drag their feet about progressing the story rather it's in the superhero/civilian life balancing, romantic subplots, calendar tracking (which I think is BS at the best of times. Like the whole 5 seasons taking place over a year? Yeah right!) and the villains not learn from their failures. Put people wanna see Marinette and Adrien get together and not explore them being with other potential romantic partners. And they dare try to justify a status quo that is overdone.
Will they even Clarify if the Royal connection is real or a metaphor and that is pretty nuts in an of itself.
@@90lancaster Knowing how the writers are, I give them a 20% chance that the Royal connection being touched on. Being very generous there.
Marinette’s advanced stalker behavior made me immediately not want her to end up with Adrien, it’s not a healthy relationship
Some day we will all be nostalgic for the love square meme era. It was a big part of the franchise and its overall popularity. It is not missed yet but some day it will be.
Oh yea, especially consider that this is main reason why show skyrocket in popularity
The reason why the love square is the only thing that made this show popular is because it’s a new idea that’s never been done before, or at least an idea that I’ve personally never seen. They were cooking when they came up with this idea in the writing room but sadly they ran out of ingredients after this idea. Personally I read fanfics of the love square where it’s arguably better to satisfy that love-square craving that you want in romance.
Totally agree. As a hero story it was decent. First season was funny but nothing special. With Agreste plot it finally start defend itself with story.
But love square Skyrocket that into it's position. I never saw anything like this, the closet was propably kamikaze kaito Jeanne but no chemistry like that. Ship scenes in episodes like when they go to ice rink was better and more interesting than fight next after.
But after 3 seasons it lost momentum and creators propably lost steam too. The things we saw in 5 like Bugi flirt with chat or Adrien with Mari should go in S3. Not nearly five years later
@@Shimospeher i watched the first 2 seasons when they first came out and instantly knew that this show is giving the “rent a girlfriend” treatment of the -will they? Won’t they?- phenomenon, so I stopped watching. Recently I watched session 5, skipping 3 & 4, and yup, i was totally right. It’s like I didn’t skip two whole seasons at all.
I mean itsactually a classic trope. its a classic lois lane/clark kent/super man aspect...or even just a batman x catwoman aspect. it just this was front and center and can play on how sincere someons feelings are if they dontknow akll of you or only seem to like you under certain circumstances.
Personally I watch the show for everything But Marinette and Adrien.
But especially Chloe.
Heck the main reason I have to watch Season 6 is to find out what is going on with Amelie, and Lila
Marinette and Adrien are not even on "The list".
They pinched it from Spider-Man the only difference is Spider-Man found out Black cat was Felicia fairly soon and they are not supposed to be the OTP.
But otherwise Felicia likes Spider-Man and is dismissive of Peter
and Peter likes Felicia but is dismissive of Black Cat and when they find out who each other is both sides Felica looses interest completely.
I was one of those people to start watching as a kid and then wait till literally MONTHS away from being a legal adult for them to just kiss!
The title just got me clinking it. Indeed it's a success even as it's a lack luster badly written concept. Now I'm talking regardless my Adrigami/Lukanette heart was canon wise punched into a coma. Doesn't matter the pairing inside, the (Stupid) Love Square is that: S-T-U-P-I-D!!
It's never continuous in development, the toxicity on BOTH their sides (Not just Marinette and not just Adrien) but how they forced moments between them that didn't fix into particular parts of all episodes.
The series ended in the Season 3 Finale for me. Watching by the end of 5 was just for the mini moments of Adrigami and Lukanette.
Anyway, Smarty Pants your Miraculous videos never fail to make smirk and laugh. 😻😻
Everyone have a blessed Monday August 28, 2023 at 10:13AM. 🌸🔥🌸🔥
I think the simplicity of the idea of the love square gave internet artists and writers a lot to work with and fans meanwhile enjoy speculating about the details of the reveal.
And all this happened during the early seasons before we learned that they are just dragging the romance
I honestly agree with you the lover story is very badly written, it took forever to make any actual progress, I think because of that I forgot about the franchise for a while and I only came back like last year
And I also agree that the main ship is very toxic, but at least the mlb movie didn’t have any of that
Ever since "Chat Blanc" and "Ephemeral," I gave up on Adrienette because the narrative just shows that the only way Marinette and Adrien can only be together if they know their identities. However, in every scenario, Hawkmoth ends up knowing both their identities and the world gets destroyed one way or another. With that in mind, it just feels like the writers never even wated them to date.
I read Archie comics growing up, and that was a somewhat messy love triangle with Archie, Betty, and Ronnie. (Before anyone asks, I can’t stand Riverdale)
The miraculous love triangle just reminded me of the Archie comics.
And that season 5 ending with the lying…Marinette is now dishonest and perpetuating a completely false narrative. Also…what is she going to tell Cat Noir about the identity of Hawk Moth and the truth of how it all went down…as adrien, he will find out it was all a lie? This show makes no sense. This love story went from being slow and infuriating to absolutely toxic and fucked up…yet here I am…no intention to stop watching. Its like a car accident you cant look away from. I cant look away. Someone help me. Maybe thats why it lasts. We all are attracted to disaster.
It's the small crumpets we get each season that keep us going. Oblivio, Cat Blanc, The time traveling episodes where we see that Cat Noir and Ladybug are grown up and still doing the superhero thing, the time they're pressured by Dark Owl to De costume, the time Adrien tried for 3 whole months to make his new rewind time power work. The Luka episode where we learn Luka knows the identities of both.
Each time we see a glimpse of what the romance could be, the love square finally over and the love finally fulfilled. But at what a devastating costs. Their love according to the writers can never be. So we sit, we watch and we hope that something, anything will happen in the romance department.
The biggest issue is that when they show all these clips, they end so unsatisfyingly. Luka written out, reversed memory, paradoxical time travel with memory wipes. All just written so poorly that it's no wonder that we gobble up what we can and just pray that once, maybe just once they'll come through and write something satisfying for the viewer.
In my opinion, I don't know if I'll go back to the show after watching the most recent movie. The movie gave me everything I wanted from the show. A proper romance between the two. A proper reveal. A satisfying conclusion to the Hawk Moth Saga. After seeing what could be, why would I go back to this unsatisfying mess of a show.
It’s a bit sad but the toxic love square is probably the more realistic conclusion. They both need different things from one another they’re prevented by circumstance. Honestly for the shows endgame they should have Chat and Ladybug at such great odds against each other it allows Hawk Moth to win and only after they reconcile can they save the day.
The love square is just so iconic
Something you didn't touch upon is how even when Marinette tries to stop and move on, the narrative won't let her by either resetting her by the next episode or by having the other characters (especially her friends and mainly Alya) encourage her and try to push her towards Adrien.
They had MANY chances to not have her become a stalker. But they didn't. They didn't go with the "celebrity crush" or "falls in love with someone else and realizes what love is and how to act" routes they had already set up. But noooo the 13/14 y.o gotta be creepy.
Chat Noir's "crush" devolved too quickly and ngl had no out to get better. Really wish they'd have gone with him having some sort of admiration/celebrity crush on Ladybug to parallel Marinette's. They like the ideal/forced to be perfect self but learn to love the other's true/current self.
Ladrien would be them being awkward and forcing themselves to conform to the other's image of them while Marichat is them becoming friends, leaning on each other and talking about what bothers them (giving them both am opportunity to show depth) then realizing they love each other.
It wasn't that hard to find a concept that works for a love square. Just like it wasn't that hard to find a way to convey good messages to young kids ("you shouldn't take on everything by yourself and make stress yourself" through Ladybug and "you don't have to bottle up your emotions and try to be perfect/conform to what adults want" through Adrien) but the show gotta be as shallow as can be with its beloved formula of "Marinette ALWAYS fucks up somehow even if it isn't actually her fault and Adrien is perfection incarnated even if he's in the wrong". How dare we want a decent show geared towards kids?! Surely, they don't have a brain to enjoy a show that has work and love put into it and isn't more superficial than Franklin!
Kids shows in 2013 still tried to have a message in every episode or in the show as a whole. It's a fundamental aspect Miraculous somehow missed and my personal interpretation is that they simply didn't intend to make a kid's show and this is the result
Honestly I'd argue that they were never even friends to begin with. They were as friendly as one would be with a classmate and just use the term of "friend" Adrian might very well think of Marinette as a friend but in Marinette's case it just doesn't feel like she ever truly considers him her friend and just the object of her affection.
She barely knows Adrian and not being able to really talk to him is not helping her case. Honestly rewatching the series the two barely have any meaningful interactions and the moment the writers chose to make Adrian realize he likes her was stupid!
I was 10 when this show started and I’ve been watching it since I was like 11/12
Everyone who loves romance loves a Romeo and Juliet type love story hoping for a happy ending instead of a tragic one
It helps that the animation is awesome
I don't have super-strong opinions on this, but I like the idea of pairing Adrien and Chloe. This does have the advantage of creating two arcs at once, so it's the sort of thing I would go for if I were writing this. I suck at writing romance arcs that are only romance arcs, so writing a romance arc that is also Chloe's redemption arc would suit me way better. Of course, this might go too far into the "I can fix her" territory, which I try to avoid. Maybe I could avoid that by having them be just friends for a while, only falling in love with each other after Chloe has made significant progress. Hm.
...I'm not actually going to write that fanfic. It's just that I'm a writer and this is how I muse about stories.
huh....I actually ship more chloe x luka in that regard...
since luka can look into people and can be soothing and not judgmental and can be easy to talk to and can be more mature but also lowkey has his own parent issues.
...though mostly because it feels like chloe's crush on adrien never felt like a actual romantic crush..and more because she was scaredto lose him and nino took her best friend spot...so in hierchy being his girlfriend could sooth her that adrien wouldn't leave and give her a better advantage to keep others away...it didnt really feel like a romantic thing between them.
though that said we know adrien DOES admire people who are honest and blunt with themselves and both ladybug and chloe can have tempers and they have known eachother forever...
though honestly as her friend(or ex friend by this point) I kindof wish he did more to help her...especially when they had parallels in the show with losing people.
or could even point to maybe chloe being his inspiration for chat noir's confidence
Queen Bee with a Secret identity is what the show should have for it's eventual reboot the show need to be a threesome to keep it more fresh and dynamic, Marinette isn't an interesting sole focus for the show as is. as she doesn't do much. She's a bland every woman character. But she also does things people in as vicarious bent wouldn't do. (like throw Cat into a Dustbin for example)
personally her throwing him in the bin wasnt the problem as that felt cartoony and he was getting in the way. it was the kicking the bin over part that felt kindof uncomfortable...though they are in suits that protect themselves and they both have literaly been thrown off roofs. though honestly why do people focus on the bin part rather than the fact she was chill with having a guy she knows was crushing on her help her practice confessing for another guy even after tikki brought up that something about that feels off? and how she literally kindof forgot he would take her feelings seriously and she didnt seem that upset about the situation earlier later on with ow she was hanging out with him and chatting while he was still worried he had crossed boundaries and seriously made her uncomfortable.
like on one hand it shows her issue was more with the city and he was just the straw that broke the camels back in that moment becasue he couldnt read the mood and she honestly doesnt mind/care that mch about his crus most of the time which gave me some relief and ut helped show once and for all that he really would be horrified if she really was uncomfortable with it the times she doesn't take it in banter.
on the other it made her kindof insensative?(which is a consistant character flaw that I do Like as in find really interesting for her to have)..like when adrien says just a friend (which we know is his geninely highest compliment and not him dismissing potential of romance and more just describing what she is) or when he asked her advice with kagami or told her about the girl he liked who doesnt think he's funny....he at least doesnt KNOW about her feelings and any hurt is accidental and we know he's feel terrible if he knew he hurt her in some way without realizing.
but marinette legit knows she is his crush and decides its fine if chat helps her practice to confess to cheer up another boy just becuase chat doesnt know he'd be helping his crush get together with someone else....like I LOVE the marichat interaction there and I actually do like the irony of all these little build up stuff on mari's end(mostly becasue Iif mari ever has a realization its going to hit her like a brick and she'll be horrified she was that blind/insensative while adrien would probably find it funny)...but it definitly doesn't paint mari in the most sensative light when it comes to caring about his feelings...though to be fair she is kindof insensative in general about people who have crushes on her which...on one hand she doesnt owe them anything...
on the other it IS a bit of a dick move to have someone you know has a crush on you helping you get with someone else after you berated them for joking about you and them as a couple around a akuma you literaly had pretended to be a couple in the past to defeat!@@90lancaster
though honestly the irony is a little funny..like when she assumed chat was trying to ger her jealous but we know he was actually feeling genuine feelings for kagami and WASN't trying to get her jealous that time and how she had pushed him amd kagami together herself...and how she assumed his friendship flower was him doing a work around to give her a romantic flower when in fact it was a genuine freindship appreciation flower X'D.
honestly though....have you not noticed that marinette and chloe actually have quite a few parallels? and i dont just mean that they both have gotten a bunch of people akumatized. honestly i feel like chloe might show up in that spin off in newyork they are planning. though what if they do a switcharoo where we end up seeing chloe is reedeemable and see the issues with gabe and andre(her dad) pointed out?
I think the issue though is marinette isnt a bad character...its that she works best bouncing off people.
though imagine of chloe's sister gives chloe the bee again herself and chloe gets a redesign of her outfit like catwalker? i still really want adriien to help chloe redeem herself.@@90lancaster
And the end of season 5 makes it even worse with Marinette lying to Adrian about his father, that bothers me so much.
I hope the "love" crashes and burns.
With Chloe just watching the fire burn.
Feel free to correct me, I haven't rewatched season one in a year or so, but i feel like both characters weren't so grabage. Cat noir was more of a flirty annoyance and i feel like mairenette wasnt insane yet. They genuinely had so much to work with, and yet they decided to make both characters irredeemable and the romance laughable. While the movie wasn't perfect, it was so much better. Adrienette was barley there, but ladynoir was done so well imo. The point of the love square is to convince the audience that they love each other in BOTH FORMS because they're "destined soulmates" or whatever. I feel like you could tell that ladybug genuinely felt attracted to cat noir, AND CAT NOIR GENUINELY RESPECTED HER. He asked he not to leave, BUT ALSO LET HER LEAVE. It would be different if the show actually portrayed their toxic behaviors as bad and ALWAYS gave them repercussions for it. In cat noir's case, i would almost be ok if they explained his actions with his sheltered childhood, ONLY if he gets told off, learns why its wrong, and makes effort to change. It wouldn't be ideal, especially in a show on kids channels, but it would be a heck of a lot better. It's insane how Felix, a character who's supposed to be a sympathetic villain/antihero/morally grey antagonist,has a better relationship than our main duo. Kagami calls out his crap, which he really didn't seem to think was wrong, he doesn't excuse himself, he just apologizes, and never does it again. Its not that hard.
I feel like the overlap between the canon ships and fanon ships is a very, very thin sliver for borrowing names/superhero ideas/world/looks of characters. The Miraculous Fandom(TM) with what it's produced is honestly more incredible IMHO.
That said, I do feel like the game-changer of Luka and Kagami would have been better handled by, hm, better writers. The one interesting thing in the secondary genre of this show aaaaaand completely wiped after 2 episodes because Status Quo is everything to this show.
It really is wild how terribly written this show is and how much we all love it and will never stop watching it. They know they can do anything they want with this show for that reason
Tbh i think that on the side of chat noir a lot of the whole calling ladybug out is just about how he's treated in general, and not just the romance, like up to now cat noir is ignored and left in the dark by the narrative and consequently by ladybug. That doesn't he doesn't come off as a bit creepy almost as equal to marinette's stalking, but it's definitely a general writing issue
I think the success comes of the fact that there were no better alternative. A story to me successful only needs to be better than the similar style stories of its time. Action and romance are in a love and hate relationship in storytelling as both needs much screentime to be good and so they fight for the precious screentime. The best stories out there often lean to favor one over the other in the end, not being able to give 50%-50% attention to both. In 20 min episodes Miraculus tried to do the impossible, giving action and romance equal footing and due to the time limit of one episode, it eventually failed telling the story well. It was just told well enough given the absence of similar 50% action and 50% romance shows.
Also they streched out the status quo too much, trying to defend the point of the ships not being able to develop without the world crumbling at the same time. The movie had so much better pacing but the runtime was too short there. The whole Agreste Arc I feel would have worked the best in 3 seasons of 30 min episodes. With first season ending with the introduction of the peacock, the second with a Chat Blank episode and the third having Lady Justice at its mid point and the final battle with both heroes facing Hawkmoth. In terms of romance the first season is our lovely square, second season is where Luka and Kagami are introduced and win by the season final, these ships last till the Lady Justice episode where we get back to standard love square and having a reveal at the end of the show.
I think you're 100% correct I think the problem with the romance in the show is the pacing of the show. The problem is they don't want Marinette or cat Noir before season for changing how they feel about each other what's the season finale because God forbid they have an actual Ark over multiple stories or show the episodes in order
The show is also HIGHLY rewarded for mediocracy (or even worse), compared to its well written episodes that don't score as well. Take Chat Blanc. In terms of good writing, character consistency, and the way it completely erases itself through time travel, it is one of the worst episodes in the show. I could probably write an hour-long video essay about why it sucks, but I won't go into it. It's also used as the main excuse for why Ladybug shelfs Chat Noir, when they're meant to be a DUO, a TEAM, and it's long term implications are used as an excuse to absolve Ladybug of criticism for the way she treats Chat Noir in later episodes (similarly how the show threw in a Kim backstory for Marinette to justify her stalker behaviour and say that anyone who still criticises her despite her woe backstory are bigots). AND YET, WITHIN THE FANDOM ITSELF, IT IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE SHOWS *BEST EPISODES*. IT IS THE SHOWS HIGHEST RATED EPISODE. The production crew knows it doesn't need to try and can leave loose ends because they know the fandom will still eat everything up, and even PRAISE it when it does so. All they need to do is throw the fandom some poetic crumbs od a semblance of a poorly-written romance and the fandom screams with joy. It's ridiculous.
But remember it's also show for kids. I not lie, i like Chat Blanc and S3 is my fav season but still there was better even in romance sense written, like "Desperada".
And don't worry, soon it will be 10 years and miracolous would fall from popularity.
They know how to end it, they just don’t know how to continue it in a satisfying way. So since they want to keep making the show that’s what happens. I doubt they wasn’t thinking of much more than a season ahead at a time. I have watched this show for a long time and it’s one of the things where I just think. It’s for the sake of being episodical. Another thing that really bothers me is how everyone know the akumas are because of negative emotions and Chloe is still there. They even try to deal with it from the schools side, but they just can’t connect the dots. I wonder if Pars would do something about mental health and deal with people like Chloe if Ladybug didn’t fix all of the damage afterwards
I somewhat agree with you, but I'd like to point these few things out.
1. Narrative Pacing:
While it's true that the pacing of the romance has been slow, it could also be argued that this slow development has allowed for more tension and anticipation to build up among the fans. The creators might have intentionally taken their time to develop the relationship in order to make the eventual payoff more impactful. Additionally, some viewers might appreciate the fact that the show has taken the time to establish the characters' individual lives and struggles before delving into their romantic relationship.
2. Character Complexity:
You've have shown some negative aspects of the characters' behaviors, but it's important to remember that characters in a story, like real people, can have flaws and make mistakes. I know that some people will say that: ohh no that is true, but Marinette is still a stalker. Yes, but you have to consider this too. It can make them relatable and realistic. Marinette's actions might come across as obsessive, but they also showcase her vulnerability and insecurity. Adrian's behavior might seem pushy at times, but it's also indicative of his struggles to cope with his dual identity and feelings of isolation. He was locked up in that house his whole life for gods sake.
In the end, while there are certainly flaws in the love square people love it. Change my mind! The show's popularity shows that it has managed to capture the interest and imagination of a significant audience, even if it doesn't align with everyone's preferences for romantic storytelling you have to say that they have created something unique. I mean, squeezing 4 ships out of 2 people is kind of nuts.
Thanks for reading this, if anyone ever reads this lol
Excusing Marinette's stalker actions as a sign of how vulnerable and insecure she is isn't great and if they wanted Marinette to feel insecure or vulnerable about being in a relationship, she doesn't have to show that by stalking. The concept of Derision does have promise to explain Marinette's past but it's executed so poorly and in season five? That episode would've worked fine in season one.
But where is the charactet development
@@hiiamjustacoolrandomuser168FR💀
@@hiiamjustacoolrandomuser168 The development is that canon Marinette gets her ass hauled off to prison on immaculate counts of stalking.
FRRR
3:57 Thats me! I waited my whole teen years and finally see them kiss as an adult😅❤
My take is its popular because it has so much wasted potential, and so badly written people feel like they need to create/read a lot of fan content to cope in a way.
Here’s the thing about the love Square/Diamond.
I’ve never really been bothered by these, but Marinette specifically is the worst part of it. And don’t get me started on the goddamn Love Dodecahedron after Season 5.
Marinette be Puppet Master around here her family, friends, EVEN HER BOYFRIEND
In my opinion, they should have ended the pushy cat noir narrative in the prime queen episode.
It's kinda funny that the when they reveal their identities and start to date, the reason it ends is always marinette's fault and because of her obsession with Adrian
i expect each episode to get worse.... and yet i tune in every time....
If i had to describe the Adrienette/Ladynoir ship in 3 words: Task failed succesfully
That’s why I love the movie. They fixed all this.
I not lie, propably most favourite thing for me in the show was love square. Yea the fights was good and the story was interesting, especially Agreste Arc, but it was nothing we not see. But the love square oh boy, it was one of funniest ships i see in any media. And i usually don't like romances. Love square was not only funny, but also made for fandom creativity. It not suprise me that people like the show because sudden you had 4 hypotetical ships and fandom just present how many this can give for fanfics, comics and whatever can get into mind of artist. Oh not only love square, for Adrien you have also Lila, Chloe and Kagami, and for Mari Nino and Nathaniel (first season) and next Luka.
But with time it was take bad. Jut like many other things in show. I don't really want to talk about Marinette stalker or Chat "no mean no", but only with timing. It take only 8 years and 5 seasons to finally take some advance in protagonist relationship. Damn, some people start to watch this as kids and wait to adult to see where it go... and yea, it goes somwhere. And it should go in S4, when Marinette and Adrien learn that Luka and Kagami were good, but they not meant for each other. Then in S4 reveal and Hawkmoth conclusion. But then no, not only no hero reveal (if that was anime then heroes would propably know after 1 season) but also hmm i not mind how chemistry look between Mari and Adi in S5, but also I cannot say it not see somewhat fast forward. And it also not suprise me, because proprably producers realise "hey, show now after neraly 10 years old, but we end main story and finalize romance..."
am willing to bet pearls against peanuts that Miracolous would start to loose its popularity. I cannot remember west cartoon shows who get that popular or be aired that long. Adventure time, Steven Universe, Gumball, MLP:FIM, and FIM had propably greatest fandom at some time, that could rivalise Star Wars for some years (even today still are made ponymeets in Poland and it's nothing small or rare). Miracolous lost momentum year ago in rush for still want hold "when they kiss" and "Gabe finale".
I could say this show still has potential with things Mari lie to Adrien about Gabriel, Adrien learn he Sentie and even Adrien villain turn, but I think writers would ruin in still want present Marinette Sue as best as can. And it's sad for me cuz the fanfics show even after learn their ID and start relationship it could still be interesting.
I completely agree with you about about this love plot nonsense. They have kept us fans waiting 9 years to watch these two finally get together and in my personal opinion I lost interest in it at the end of S3. They made Chloe into an out of control jerk, they added Marinette's trauma story in S5 out of no where to justify her stalking behavior, they make her a almost complete Mary Sue, completely ignoring her flaws and in my mind painting her as a narcissist who thinks that everything she does is okay as long as it makes Adrien happy and keeps Paris safe from Gabriel. The main purpose of S4 was to show off the other miraculous heroes that are, like you've mentioned before, pawns on a chessboard to fight the Akuma villains, and the arc wraps up with Marinette failing to stop the universe from getting destroyed by a wish which was that started all of this in the beginning and just living happily ever with her boyfriend in a world created from her own failure. I could go on and on but the main point is they believed that this show could keeps us drawn in with these constant battle episodes hoping that we will just ignore the boring main plot. I am seriously hoping for big changes in the next arc or I'm dropping this show for good.
It had to be with how much the show liked to shove it in our faces this ship was going to be canon
I can't imagine I started watching the show at age 4 and am 10 now 6 years for goods plot I have drained my life away so I quit
Huh, fair and valid points and opinions, i wonder how this Romance will go from here?
SmartyPants is a real smarty pants!
1:20 Thats because the show is aimed at kids and kids don't really care about good writing. When you are a kid stuff goes over your head and you just want pretty colors. When you get more cognitive you start to care about plot holes and stuff like that. Also Riverdale has poor writing ( so I have heard) and that show did super well so I'm not sure adults care that much about good writing either.
"One is the very clear loser," looks at ladrien. Yeah, that's true.
People like the concept of the show more and the fan made elements more. There is a lot of projection by fans on the characters. Persoanlly i no longer care for the love square as presented in the show
I propably stop interesting in show after S3 (and no, for me it was best season. But wait kill my thrill). But fandom still hold me
Honestly I'm hoping with season 6 the writers focus on other relationships maybe take a break from the square maybe focus on stuff we need maybe a marthaniel or julerose episode, like season 5 I feel was focused just around the square
I don’t know but I honestly think yeah it may seem creepy Marinette’s behavior with Adrien but honestly that’s how a lot of girls are at least when going through crushes in middle and high school. What is the thing that every girl makes a reference about? That one person that can work for the FBI bc they find out things about the family and what not on social media bc they’re looking for and stalking the boy they have a crush on. I know no one might agree with that but it’s true and does have quite often. Not only that but the way Chat acts with Ladybug is kinda how boys behave with girls when they keep going after them even though the girl clearly doesn’t want anything to do with him. It does happen. Glorifying it and showing kids that watch the show that it’s okay to behave like that is completely different though that’s just not okay bc it’s weird and creepy but just saying it does happen lol
It’s now seeming competitive but recently there has been a little bit more action in season 5 ig
I got to say Marinette definitely feels like realistic to me when look at my girl friends celeb crushes since yeah it's a phase that ends but the only people that will ever be like Marinette as an older person are either just in a phase or Tick Tock destroyed them and will phase out of it back into a common sence person eventually be what I would say is normal. Man it's weird that this show feels so realistic sometimes. Also your points are very valid it's just normal people will always see Marinette as a prime example of what not to be in romance since it's a full blown meme at this point.
Yea
3:55 Literally me, how'd you know?!
Yeah! I've been watching since season 1!
I really really hated the marinette backstory episode. Like, if you try to say Marinette is creepy people are like, “B-b-b-b-b-b-but in that one episode we find out marinette is that way because of Kim and Chloe and she’s traumatised!!!!1!!1!1!” Like ok Thomas just wants us to sympathise with a creep and get rid of any possibility of a Chloe redemption
Mm hmm. Thomas asstruc is so pathetic.
Watch as Lyla destroys Marinette's romance again.
I hope Jeremy zag undoes Astructs shit like that bish sexualized marinette and she is like 14-15-16 but after seeing the movie I'm curious to see the rest of the seasons. But bro out of NOWHERE there is an episode 27!? But I stan the show and I feel like it resembles Fnaf is some way
+2:48 "Coy Ladybug" (like hell she doesn't flirt back)
Marinette was a stalker and Chat noir was incredibly pushy. Honestly this entire show is so bad
man the movie did such a better jop with these 2
well two creppy people in a realtionship is kinda better than one if you really think about it
With the way the creators write the slow burn, they should definitively read way more slow burn fanfics
And this is why I read fanfiction 😭
Out of the whole love square… I think we as a community can all agree that Adrienette, LadyNoir, and MariChat are all number 1 of the love square. And Ladrien is last… actually I wouldn’t even rate ladrien. Nobody likes ladrien…
Nobody…
in fact , all love couples except Adrinette are already dead and have ceased to exist, so they can safely go to the abyss to ladrien (which by the way a lot of people love , if you are not familiar with the whole community)
I've read a few ladies fanfics, watched a few animations and read some comics all based on Ladrien.
Yeah no, there are people who likes the ship. And there are some who made the ship alive in season 1-2 quit because they learnt of the toxicity.
(Even some used the toxicity for their stories and it was still better than the show)
Jumped the shark
nuked the fridge
Gimmi'd the wish ?
The creepiness on both sides is the reason why I have a hard time shipping Adrienette and LadyNoir.
At least Adrien took the consent workshop by the time adrienette ship started. He doesn't push too far with marinette, like he did with ladybug as marinette. So when things get awkward between the two, cuz adrien doesn't know how far to push or when to stop or that he apologises not understanding the core reasons why marinette keeps pushing him away...its cute. Because he isn't just being completely obssessive (like with ladybug), but slightly infatuated. Decreasing, but not completely gone to the point it would feel OOC.
And it is true that marinette did try to change from being a literal stalker... but the writers kinda made it look like 'not stalking' is a bad thing. Especially that episode with Felix and the red moon. That the reason marinette didn't notice is because she decided to trust her bf, and wasn't stalking adrien anymore. 🤮
Failed upwards- Buggy 😂 anyone.
I’m still watching.
I feel like the people were trying to do a Pepe Le Pew kinda character
It blows my fucking mind that the show is five seasons in and they still don't know the other's identity. Like wtf. I didn't stick around after the first season and I'm kinda glad lol
Tbh they should just like do like how the movie was like I beg❤
One of my issues with this ship is how EVERYONE in universe (who isn't an antagonist) ships these two to a excessive degree. In season 5 and the New York special when Marinette is trying to get over her crush (character development) but Alya is basically like "nope you love Adrien, end of story" (I will acknowledge she learned a lesson in that season 5 episode). Speaking of the New York special two random teens think "they're made for each other" despite barely knowing them. And like it's not even that some people don't care either they're for it or against it (though I could be wrong feel free to.correct me)