Dr Nightstar: "Congratulations, Mrs Warhammer, Mr Marauder, it's a Thug!" Mad: "Aww, look honey, he has your SRMs." Whm: "And your legs." Mad: "And...Hand actuators?! Where did he get THOSE?!" Nightstar:
The Thug is a VERY solid assault, 80 tons, dual PPCs and SRM's and ALL of the heatsinks, the 2750 one is absurdly oversinked but that just means you can put a brick on the fire button and leave it there. Great vid on a solid 'mech!
There's something inherently funny about the name Thug. It is kinda menacing but it feels so mundane in between all the other mechs. It's like naming a mech Bully or Grunt.
See, that's *basic* knowledge in the field. What's less well-known is that Maltex gave it an array of warning klaxons for when the Thug is moving through concentrations of friendly troops. This is because the Thug proved surprisingly difficult to see for a three-story war machine. Thug pilots have taken to sounding these klaxons when they are about to administer the coup de grace. Indeed, Thug pilots maintain that if *you hear those horns, you're finished.*
Warhammer taps its price tag and introtech label I'm not saying the Thug is bad, but it is less versatile and it is harder to get your hands on. While Warhammers are ubiquitous affordable, and flexible.
@@bthsr7113 yeah they made a better Warhammer it only took 10 tons 2 million more cbills and Star League tech 🙄Oh yeah an there are couple Star League tech Warhammer variants that would still trash it.
@@hurnn1543 And then there's the Warhammer IIC whose price jump over the Thug is smaller than the Thug over the normal Warhammer and could maul even royal Thugs.
True, but losing heat sinks usually is a sure indication that your Mech isn´t worling at full capacity any more. The 11E should have either been equipped with ER-PPCs in the first place or have some heat sinks removed for an extra couple of medium lasers and maybe a flamer.
The real fridge logic is when you realize the stock thug is really just a faster, even more heavily armored Awesome, which trades the third PPC and small laser for SRM's. It's basically saying "look at what this already pretty nice, cost effective mech can do with only minor modifications."
I know it's meant to be designed after the warhammer, but it reads to me like they just took two panthers and fused them together. Double the PPC, double the SRM, same amount of "variation" between models. Like having something other than a PPC and SRM in the mech would bring great dishonor to their family. It works though. Haven't had a chance to field one myself yet but I've faced them and they take a lot to put down.
That's a very interesting and accurate assessment: in addition to the weapons the mechs have the same 4/6 movement. Of course, the Panther has jumpjets but the Thug has more structure points than two Panthers combined. The BV values are also incredibly close, 767 and 1501 for the panther and Thug respectively. Personally, I think the assault mech is the better buy but thats a reflection of my preference for toughness over mobility. There's actually other assault mechs that are like welded-together twins of lesser mechs. The Stalker (favorite mech btw) is like a pair of Wyverns except it has medium lasers instead of smalls. Also, it ditches the jumpjets because who cares about controlling the range when you have a weapon for _every_ range? Also it's a hell of a lot cheaper. The Wyvern is a good medium, don't get me wrong, and it's also a great price at 1068 BV. But for twice that price I can get a Stalker with _clan_ equipment.
The Thug is hard to dislike, I find. It's somewhat undergunned and oversinked, yeah, but the relatively simplistic loadout avoids having to keep track of a billion different range-bands, tricksy heat management and other shenanigans, making it a dream for a beginner, especially in light of its toughness, while a veteran will appreciate elements like the full hand actuators on a 80-ton chassis for those critical moments.
I probably did the boring thing and pulled the SRM-4 from the -10E for a quartette of Medium Lasers and another Heat Sink. This -10ED is able to stay Heat Neutral when standing still and firing its PPCs, but can then cool off while running while still firing all four Medium Lasers.
Can't go wrong with such a weapon combo. In tabletop: 2 ppc = 20 dmg for 20 heat 1 ppc and 2 srm6 = up 34 dmg for 18 heat 1 ppc and 1 srm6 = up 22 damage for 14 heat 2 srm 6 = up to 24 dmg for 8 heat Many ways to cause a knock down at any range and the armor to deliver it. In video games, ppcs and srm are always heavy hitters. Solid design.
On paper it might sound impressive... however it comes with a huge caveat: PPCs have a minimum range of 3, SRMs short range is 3... so you will never get the same to hit score on your PPCs and your SRMs. So any PPC+SRM combo will see one weapon system with a higher to hit modifier wich can range from 2+ to 4+ for the SRMs if outside of their short range, or you fire the PPCs below minimum range wich can go up to +3, and this all under the assumption that the thug didnt move that turn and that the thugs target didnt move. All in all PPCs+SRMs are less then ideal as a weapons pairing and leads to alot of missed shots. At the end of the day the thug is very unlikely to cause a knockdown on its own. Either it cant hit fast moving targets with enough damage or the oponent is heavy enough to shrug off a knockdown test with a low modifier. Damage potential is all fine and dandy but you first have to land those hits. Hence why i still prefer the warhammer wich has ample secondaries so it doesnt have to use its PPCs in close combat.
@@riptors9777 on paper the min 3 is not as big of a problem as it sounds. If your in the short range of the ppcs you will get a better chance to hit with those and with 2, thats 20 damage and a pilot skill roll. The SRMs are back up in this case if 1 PPC misses as you will only need 5/12 missiles to induce a PSR. If they come into min range, then they are in your srm 6 short range which increases your chances of nailing at least 10 missiles to hit causing a PSR. Even at min range, you can fire off the ppcs on a thug because its oversinked. I think you misunderstand my comment thinking it's about damage potential. I could have listed the alpha strike but I didn't for a reason. This combo is good for getting consistent 20 or more damage. Inner sphere average pilots are bad at PSR and after a couple tumbles from 20+ dmg attacks, things get hairy fast
@@v13r3r Yeah but thats only if the dice go perfectly your way, wich more often then not they dont. Lets see here: 4/5 pilot in the Thug, and you fire 1 PPC and 1 SRM at a range of 4. Thats 4 for the PPCs and 6 for the SRMs due to firing the SRMs at medium range. Lets say the Thug ran, thats another +2 for a 6 and 8 for SRMs. Still respectable odds here. For realism lets say the enemy wich is a medium class ran 6 hexes wich is on the lower end for a medium. Thats another 2+ so now youre at 8+ for the PPCs and 10+ for the SRMs. Its not likely youre going cause a pilot skill check with those odds even if you fire both PPCs instead of the PPC/SRM due to having reached lower then 50% chance to hit. And even if you do: Its 20 damage, wich while nothing to scoff at is a basic piloting test that more often then not will succeed for a 4/5 pilot. And this is without Terrain or other enviromental modifiers too Now lets say you only fire your SRMs: In the above example thats still only 8 for both SRMs. Again: Not that likely to consistently do 20+ damage cause of the hitrate. And then you have to roll high for enough missles to hit to reach 20+ damage. Wich while not being impossible is still very unlikely to happen. And that was the point of my argument: PPCs dont pair up well with SRMs if fired together. They should have taken out 2 double heatsinks and installed 2 medium lasers instead, wich would leave the Thug with 1 D-heatsink in the positive and give the thug some more knife range firepower. Things get even worse if you play lvl 1 tech in 3025 since at close range those twin SRM 4s wont scare even light mechs away.
@@riptors9777 1 ppc and 1 srm? I think we are not on the same page at all and just have different playstyles and experiences. I recommend you run a few more games with the thug to gain more familiarty. You can start with the star league version with ER PPCs if you need to ease in. Or a hatomato chi if you want a challenge. This argument is old as the mechs themselves so please understand that I don't feel like rehashing it as I know it will go no where and it's quite boring to me now. I'm not going to fight mlas and srm as well because those are a classic combo and exist in a different paradigm for what I'm talking about. To give you some insight: 2 mlas and 2 srm4 are what I consider minimum combo for consistent 20+ damage at the lightest weight and heat. On paper that combo wouldnt work but in practice, its quite consistent. You will probably find that wrong but that's what I mean by difference in playstyles and experience. And that's fine. You can keep playing your way, and I'll play mine. The game would be boring if there was only one way to play
Fully agree. Within the respective TROs the Thug 11E and 10E are excellent designs. While the standard Warhammer and Marauder are rather fragile, the Thug can dish out and take a beating. An excellent "anchor" unit for heavy lances.
The THG-MF is an absolute beast. Got to love a design with twin Plasma Rifles. I could see it running a pair of small lasers instead of medium, and try to shoehorn in an ECM.
But really the Thug is amazing no matter what form it takes. The fact that there isn't any Clan version still boggles my mind given how tough and effective the base design is.
I bought the Inner Sphere Support Lance simply because it had a Thug in it. I tend to prefer faster mediums and lights, but the Thug really is THAT great.
The Thug I'm currently running is part of a C3B Boosted Company. Dual ER LG Lasers, dual SRM-6's (with two tons of ammo protected by CASE), and a C3B Boosted Master Computer. Maxed armor and 16 double heat sinks keep it relatively cool. It retains most of the firepower, while gaining that nice C3 bonus that's very difficult to disrupt.
@@anselmoffrisia2930 the entire pack is great! But I could almost resist the others, as I already had minis of them. That Thug gave me the butterflies 🦋🦋
Had a thug in Mech warrior 2 mercs it was my Warhammer cope mechanism as the undean had just got going then. Also yes painting more minis a lance of Northwind highlanders!
My favourite assault mech. Put it in any assault formation and it will hold its own. While not a spotlight holder, it will always hold a special place in my heart for just being so damned reliable.
We love the Thug because it's a four-letter monosyllabic word in the form of consonant-consonant-vowel-G, and all the best words are like that (see also: FROG)
It's really hard to go wrong with dual PPCs. And then the follow-up wave of SRMs gives you twelve potential chances for critting something out. It's simple and effective. Absolutely love it.
Love how the original weapons payload of the thug remain unchanged from the star league era all the way to to the ilclan era. Dual PPCs and SRMs are timeless for that Thug Life combo.
The Thug is flat-out better than a Warhammer for most things-the problem is it costs 38% more and uses advanced technology to do it. It is rugged, though not quite as much as the Warhammer either. And you can get and run a full Lance of Warhammers for cheaper than three Thugs, too-and for most jobs, a Lance of Warhammers is good enough. The Thug has aged well, especially the upgrade with ER PPCs, but it's a shame there hasn't been a version with CASE II (not the 13U, it's way too specialized and lacks the long range) to truly set it into the new era. A Sea Fox upgrade package giving it a part-for-part replacement (two Clan ER PPCs, two Clan Streak SRM-6s, two Inner Sphere CASE IIs, and maybe a Clan ECM Suite for some extra defense? kinda like the Wild Geese version) would be a real killer product, i think. There's no real Thug counterpart to the Warhammer 8R-though the appeal of the Thug, perhaps, is that there doesn't really need to be.
Always loved piloting the Thug in Mechwarrior 2. The lack of torso twisting made it feel like a spiritual successor to the old WW2 German tank destroyers and assault guns, namely the StuG
Oh, the Thug… the mech that truly brought me into Battletech, I remember watching something that had art of the Thug and I thought ‘that’s so cool!’ Thanks for doing a video on it!
as soon as the Star League TRO 2750 (1989) was released the Thug was a regular sites on my table. They have a special place in my memory. I warmly remember one of my thugs wielding a leg of a commando smashing anything that got to close with SRMs and Clubbing, mech was eventually named the Knight Clubber after this became a regular tactic. - it did have a single DHS and 1/2 ton armor removed for an ECM. Ok removed is not correct - more - not replaced after a battle and the ECM was recovered. One build i did for a clan what if - ended up with 2xATM6 2xERPPC ECM AMS FF +2 DHS and of course I had to have a jumping thug Another good one Mr Mech Frog
I can attest to the Thug the last time I ran one in a lance with a Catapult K2, Dragon N1 & Hunchback 4G in a Long Ranged Fire lance it didn't disappoint
Thank you so much. I absolutely love the Thug! The addition of things like ERPPCs and snub-nosed PPCs feel so right, a machine with the heat-stinks to alpha strike with two SRM-6s and two PPCs deserves PPCs with no minimum range.
I played a Thug in a tournament at a con in like the summer of '95, I didn't win but did go to the second round. The Thug is the best zombie mech, it keeps coming.
Honestly, the -11E and -10E are probably my favorite canon variants of the Thug. And while I do like your THG-MF variant, I still made my own - which I'm sure you expected to happen. The THG-ISM utilizes, of course, some Clantech in the form of its DHS, XL engine, and internal structure. It replaces the standard gyro with a heavy-duty version, the 15.5 tons of standard armor with 18.5 tons of Hardened armor, and swaps the PPCs for Clan ER versions. It drops the SRMs completely in favor of 2 Medium Re-Engineered Lasers in each side torso, as well as an additional DHS. While this is inadequate to handle the heat load of an alpha strike (38 heat dissipation against 54 heat generated), it negates the need for CASE - which admittedly might be such a good trade-off. Mounting TSM helps to take advantage of the heat load, but still doesn't really make it worth it. I did add jump jets to it as well, which probably doesn't help with the heat but improves its mobility. In spite of that, I do like it. Plus, if you're familiar with the way 'Mech combat went in the Succession Wars as well as the Clan Invasion and just afterward, a high heat burden would something pilots would be used to.
Mech Frog showed me this beauty. Gonna see if I can get me one of them in the future. Would pair nicely with an Awesome. Making it an Awesome Thug lance. Cheers
The original Thug is the definition of "Simple and Effective" as far as Assault Battlemechs go. I prefer the Victor in MWO and MW5 for its jumpjets enabling it to perform "shock infantry" duty, but if confined to the tabletop, a THG-11E would be a superior choice methinks to most Victors.
I run a Mixed tech thug with clan double heat sinks, ferro fibrous armor, ER PPCs and 4 medium pulse lasers. Basically a 10E that swaps everything but the engine and chassis.
@@MechanicalFrog it's not bad. Have to watch out for overheating. I made it to show a friend who was getting into the game how mixed tech works. Now he plays mostly mixed tech inner sphear mechs 😂
The only modification I'd do to my stock thug would be to pull 4 very much not really needed DHS and add 4 medium lasers massively beefs up the close up close punch and can still fire a PPC every other turn when using the SRMs and medium lasers
Thug just all around bad ass. Only thing I would change on the Royal variant with the ER PPC's is going to four streak-2's in the SL era. Then that leaves the options of getting rid of a extra ton of ammo, and case in a torso if desired. I'd go 19th Double heatsink, and a half to of whatever.
Its just some mercs from the periphery what could they possibly bring? New target: Thug THG-11E Oh......that explains the green paint, bloody SLDF descendan- *Signal lost due to cockpit destruction due to two PPC's to the head* I love my tabletop mercs' Thug, an old relic of their past. Were they a good SLDF unit back in their day? No,they ended up deserting when they were cut off from friendly support and trapped in the periphery. The mercs they would go on to create? Much braver than their ancestors. With a current total of 5 lances its a good force,though the Thug is the only mech that is in its original SLDF configuration.
I didn’t like the Thug at first. Until I played MW5 and used the Awesome. Sure, the Awesome is heavily armored and packs a wallop, but in anything except straight defensive and offensive actions, it’s slow speed leaves it vulnerable. The Thug is an awesome with better close range firepower, speed and even heavier armor, and for no real loss in firepower as apparently Awesome pilots didn’t often fire more than 2 PPCs at once. After slogging through artillery fire in a slow Awesome, the Thug would do mighty fine as a replacement.
It is not often that you hear of a mech, regardless of it's class, weight, or use case, that's *so good* that the great houses _didn't_ want to send them into the meat grinder of the succession wars and kept them like prized possessions. That should say something about the design. I admittedly never thought about the Thug that much until I watched this video. Maybe I'll give it another run if I ever encounter it in the various games I play. :)
@@MechanicalFrog Happy to make your day go a little bit better! Loving the content. You and BigRed are my two main go-to guys for Battletech stuffs. :D
I've pulled the SRM's out of an 11E as well as the left PPC to put a targeting computer and LRM15 in the right and left torso respectively, two Defiance C9M clan-grade ER Medium Lasers each in the left arm and center torso, and shaved one ton of armor and I think a few heat sinks to fit. Still fully cooled and it's a mid-range monster
@@MechanicalFrog To be 100% honest, I was looking to make these changes to a Zeus instead, but the Zeus has no hands and also has *literally never* been produced in an Endo-Steel frame. I then found the Thug and discovered that everything was already kinda in the spots I wanted it. Also the Thug is much cooler looking than a Zeus.
@@MechanicalFrog I do find it a better choice due to the extra armor, as I always have to keep any Warhammer I got slightly in the back as close-support just because it can't take take a lot of punishement. In that regard, I would grab it for a mercenary unit as well.
Honestly, I just like the idea that someone used those hands to grab an enemy mech and hold them still in front of their chest. Then they dumped as many SRM's in to them as it took with no chance of missing.
I'm not a big fan myself, even though it is a solid design. But my first thought seeing it was they took bits of the Zeus, Warhammer, and Titan and crammed them all together. (Yeah, I know the Titan is only marginally canon, having only appeared in the Battetechnology magazine. But it's hard to ignore 2 PPCs, 6 ML, and 22 SRMs...)
The combination of TSM and Ballistic armour makes me think the 13U was designed specifically for hot environments. It seems like a mech designed to brawl in a Solaris arena filled with lava.
I used a Thug 11E my last game. Charged it into the fray to cover my medium units and had it punching, kicking, and shooting, as you do with a Thug. Got a nice end of game kill on a Crusader, even after its whole right side was blown off from an ammo-crit. Thug life baby!
You know, the Thug was never one of my favorites to use in my lances, but perhaps I should reconsider that going forward. Always had a preference for the Awesome for PPC shenanigans.
I love this mech it does well with its mix if not number of weapons...sometimes less is more :-) we love the thug cause it looks good and hits hard :-) a regular opponent of mine loves the ppc and this is one of his must go toos so ive learnt to respect it :-)
I really, really like the Thug. Pretty much the only thing that could make me like the Thug even more would be if there were a standard variant that could jump, but that would probably only be achievable by under-sinking it more or doing something like what you did with the XL gyro. Zombie mechs are my jam, the Grasshopper is my favorite mech, so obviously I dig the Thug.
Thug is good, so I like it. While it may be slightly undergunned for it's weight class, I think the extra mobility more than makes up for it. Side note, my theory for the extra double heat sinks is actually for if the thug takes an engine hit. If it's engine is damaged, it can still run and alpha strike and have 1 heat capacity to spare. I feel it gives it slightly more longevity, though how much more value that longevity brings is debateable.
Loved it since the day I picked up TRO 2750. Only thing better in that TRO was the passage on Highlander Burials (and perhaps the original warship pics)
I made my own silly variant based on 11E with two plasma rifles and one ton of inferno missiles for the SRM-6 in addition to a ton of regular missiles.
I play both IF and Clans. The Thug is one of like, maybe four of my Inner Sphere mechs I don't have to worry about. (The others are my Zeus, Awesome, and strangely enough my Caesar holds better than my King Crab) which for Inner Sphere mechs is rare. Meanwhile my Clan mechs, I basically don't worry about. But the Thug in particular, is tough enough to tank any singular hit, and can generally give as good as it gets. In a game where I can pick my weapons, I'd trade in the srms for lasers, just for battlefield longevity, but they work in the games.
The TSM Thug would likely have been served better by moving the snubs to the torso, but that might have put critical space at too much a premium. Always found that two chances to punch with the upper body track is more advantageous than a single kick with the lower.
I love it because it is simple, and gives me an excuse to utter the pun "thug around and find out." I do prefer the one with the kurita body kit, but with the classic thug loadout (aka put the dhs back in, comstar isn't looking). there is little i could do to improve it beyond ditching some dhs to add case II but that is such a minor change. and with it being so oversinked the ERPPCs of the royal version and later 12E sort of make sense as you paid for the entire thermometer, you might as well use it to shoot rather than just as TAC absorbers. PS: on the Wild Geese version you (visually) list it as having 3 clan erppcs instead of two. audio correctly mentions it as having two
I mean, I'm one of those "it's a worse Warhammer" guy- but I like to look at the pricetag. The Thug is a classic menace, and the setting is better for having it- even if I don't like it very much for my own lances.
I don't see being oversynched as a problem, depending on the loadout. I'd rather my mech be cool as a winter day in Fargo as opposed to alpha striking and then giving my lance mates an early sunrise
I always wonder why the Thug never got a 2750 Era "All Energy" variant. The "All Energy" Warhammer seems to be from that time period and switching the SRMs for a Medium and M-Pulse + Heat Sink (getting to 20 Doubles). Yes, a bit less damage in the M-Laser/SRM long range bracket but lasers are more constant in damage and require no resupply.
Dr Nightstar: "Congratulations, Mrs Warhammer, Mr Marauder, it's a Thug!"
Mad: "Aww, look honey, he has your SRMs."
Whm: "And your legs."
Mad: "And...Hand actuators?! Where did he get THOSE?!"
Nightstar:
Haha😂
Theyre battlemechs he would meter towards the door lol
The Thug is a VERY solid assault, 80 tons, dual PPCs and SRM's and ALL of the heatsinks, the 2750 one is absurdly oversinked but that just means you can put a brick on the fire button and leave it there. Great vid on a solid 'mech!
Great platform to put some captured clan equipment after you kick their ass on tukkayid
@@HalIOfFamer That could work but you might screw up the heat balance, honestly the Thug does not need much done to it.
I suspect the original idea was to fit ER-PPCs onto the design. Even with ER-PPCs, it would still not overheat too badly on an alpha strike.
@@andrewszigeti2174 Yeah that figures, 38 heat if you don't move, venting 36, so bugger all really.
@@sharlin648 the 13U is all that was needed to be done.
That variant is an absolute beast and pound for pound one the best IS mechs ever produced.
The Thug: meant to surpass the Warhammer in every measure, eventually settling into a strange frenemy relationship. Thanks for the video.
Well put.
You just can't outshine the Warhammer... especially when you're not financially competitive.
There's something inherently funny about the name Thug. It is kinda menacing but it feels so mundane in between all the other mechs. It's like naming a mech Bully or Grunt.
Agreed. The naming conventions in Battletech are inconsistent mostly especially within certain houses.
For some reason, I'd say "Bully" would be a fair designation to most MF variants. Typically only lack the inferno load as a cherry on top.
Well, Thugs engage in thuggery on lighter mechs...soo
That "TH" sound is just fun.
Ironically, I use the term “bully” for Mechs like the Thug and Dragon, who literally “bully” smaller Mechs while the Panthers snipe everything else.
Maltex took a look at the Warhammer when designing the their Thug and said “So, you think you’re untouchable”. Thugonomics 101.
"We're you, but better."
See, that's *basic* knowledge in the field. What's less well-known is that Maltex gave it an array of warning klaxons for when the Thug is moving through concentrations of friendly troops. This is because the Thug proved surprisingly difficult to see for a three-story war machine. Thug pilots have taken to sounding these klaxons when they are about to administer the coup de grace. Indeed, Thug pilots maintain that if *you hear those horns, you're finished.*
Warhammer taps its price tag and introtech label
I'm not saying the Thug is bad, but it is less versatile and it is harder to get your hands on. While Warhammers are ubiquitous affordable, and flexible.
@@bthsr7113 yeah they made a better Warhammer it only took 10 tons 2 million more cbills and Star League tech 🙄Oh yeah an there are couple Star League tech Warhammer variants that would still trash it.
@@hurnn1543 And then there's the Warhammer IIC whose price jump over the Thug is smaller than the Thug over the normal Warhammer and could maul even royal Thugs.
When your group only plays in the Succession Wars era and you pilot a Thug:
"Been spendin most my life livin in an Amish Paradise. . . "
I always knew Mechfrog was living that Thug life.
W3rd.
The extra heatsinks on the original Thug means it can lose a few and still keep operating at full capacity.
True.
True, but losing heat sinks usually is a sure indication that your Mech isn´t worling at full capacity any more.
The 11E should have either been equipped with ER-PPCs in the first place or
have some heat sinks removed for an extra couple of medium lasers and maybe a flamer.
@@hermes7587 With a name like THUG, a flamer would be on brand.
As any wise Mechwarrior knows, you do not choose the Thug life. The Thug life chooses you.
Fact Check: True.
@@MechanicalFrog Except the Hatamoto-Chi, that's a Charger that chose the Thug life.
@@claytonhollowell4488Nah. Hatanoto-Chi is a Thug disguised as a Charger.
"As the entire idea of a Thug being stealthy amuses my primitive mammalian brain"
but MF, i thought your brain was amphibian!
I keep the mammalian brain in a jar in the garage.
@@MechanicalFrog which mammal does it come from?
@@MechanicalFrogah, the good old i.c.e brain.
The real fridge logic is when you realize the stock thug is really just a faster, even more heavily armored Awesome, which trades the third PPC and small laser for SRM's. It's basically saying "look at what this already pretty nice, cost effective mech can do with only minor modifications."
Fair argument.
Though the Awesome can't have ammo explosions... barring the variants that add ammo dependent weapons or some idiot installing improved heavy lasers.
I know it's meant to be designed after the warhammer, but it reads to me like they just took two panthers and fused them together. Double the PPC, double the SRM, same amount of "variation" between models. Like having something other than a PPC and SRM in the mech would bring great dishonor to their family.
It works though. Haven't had a chance to field one myself yet but I've faced them and they take a lot to put down.
That's a very interesting and accurate assessment: in addition to the weapons the mechs have the same 4/6 movement. Of course, the Panther has jumpjets but the Thug has more structure points than two Panthers combined. The BV values are also incredibly close, 767 and 1501 for the panther and Thug respectively. Personally, I think the assault mech is the better buy but thats a reflection of my preference for toughness over mobility.
There's actually other assault mechs that are like welded-together twins of lesser mechs. The Stalker (favorite mech btw) is like a pair of Wyverns except it has medium lasers instead of smalls. Also, it ditches the jumpjets because who cares about controlling the range when you have a weapon for _every_ range? Also it's a hell of a lot cheaper. The Wyvern is a good medium, don't get me wrong, and it's also a great price at 1068 BV. But for twice that price I can get a Stalker with _clan_ equipment.
Played a Thug for the first time last night- the 11Eb! It was a monster
Yeah that one is sure something.
I mean, it was a no brainer Block 2 upgrade package. It had ample heat sinks in the base model to handle the twin ERPPC heat load.
The Thug is hard to dislike, I find. It's somewhat undergunned and oversinked, yeah, but the relatively simplistic loadout avoids having to keep track of a billion different range-bands, tricksy heat management and other shenanigans, making it a dream for a beginner, especially in light of its toughness, while a veteran will appreciate elements like the full hand actuators on a 80-ton chassis for those critical moments.
There aren’t a ton of mechs that are so good that the massive downgrade of the succession wars barely effected the devastation it can throw out.
It definitely could have been much worse for our friend the Thug.
One of the benefits of the K.I.S.S. doctrine
I probably did the boring thing and pulled the SRM-4 from the -10E for a quartette of Medium Lasers and another Heat Sink.
This -10ED is able to stay Heat Neutral when standing still and firing its PPCs, but can then cool off while running while still firing all four Medium Lasers.
Can't go wrong with such a weapon combo. In tabletop:
2 ppc = 20 dmg for 20 heat
1 ppc and 2 srm6 = up 34 dmg for 18 heat
1 ppc and 1 srm6 = up 22 damage for 14 heat
2 srm 6 = up to 24 dmg for 8 heat
Many ways to cause a knock down at any range and the armor to deliver it.
In video games, ppcs and srm are always heavy hitters.
Solid design.
Always nice when you have plenty of options.
On paper it might sound impressive... however it comes with a huge caveat:
PPCs have a minimum range of 3, SRMs short range is 3... so you will never get the same to hit score on your PPCs and your SRMs. So any PPC+SRM combo will see one weapon system with a higher to hit modifier wich can range from 2+ to 4+ for the SRMs if outside of their short range, or you fire the PPCs below minimum range wich can go up to +3, and this all under the assumption that the thug didnt move that turn and that the thugs target didnt move. All in all PPCs+SRMs are less then ideal as a weapons pairing and leads to alot of missed shots. At the end of the day the thug is very unlikely to cause a knockdown on its own. Either it cant hit fast moving targets with enough damage or the oponent is heavy enough to shrug off a knockdown test with a low modifier.
Damage potential is all fine and dandy but you first have to land those hits. Hence why i still prefer the warhammer wich has ample secondaries so it doesnt have to use its PPCs in close combat.
@@riptors9777 on paper the min 3 is not as big of a problem as it sounds. If your in the short range of the ppcs you will get a better chance to hit with those and with 2, thats 20 damage and a pilot skill roll. The SRMs are back up in this case if 1 PPC misses as you will only need 5/12 missiles to induce a PSR. If they come into min range, then they are in your srm 6 short range which increases your chances of nailing at least 10 missiles to hit causing a PSR. Even at min range, you can fire off the ppcs on a thug because its oversinked.
I think you misunderstand my comment thinking it's about damage potential. I could have listed the alpha strike but I didn't for a reason. This combo is good for getting consistent 20 or more damage. Inner sphere average pilots are bad at PSR and after a couple tumbles from 20+ dmg attacks, things get hairy fast
@@v13r3r Yeah but thats only if the dice go perfectly your way, wich more often then not they dont.
Lets see here: 4/5 pilot in the Thug, and you fire 1 PPC and 1 SRM at a range of 4. Thats 4 for the PPCs and 6 for the SRMs due to firing the SRMs at medium range. Lets say the Thug ran, thats another +2 for a 6 and 8 for SRMs. Still respectable odds here. For realism lets say the enemy wich is a medium class ran 6 hexes wich is on the lower end for a medium. Thats another 2+ so now youre at 8+ for the PPCs and 10+ for the SRMs.
Its not likely youre going cause a pilot skill check with those odds even if you fire both PPCs instead of the PPC/SRM due to having reached lower then 50% chance to hit. And even if you do: Its 20 damage, wich while nothing to scoff at is a basic piloting test that more often then not will succeed for a 4/5 pilot.
And this is without Terrain or other enviromental modifiers too
Now lets say you only fire your SRMs: In the above example thats still only 8 for both SRMs. Again: Not that likely to consistently do 20+ damage cause of the hitrate. And then you have to roll high for enough missles to hit to reach 20+ damage. Wich while not being impossible is still very unlikely to happen.
And that was the point of my argument: PPCs dont pair up well with SRMs if fired together. They should have taken out 2 double heatsinks and installed 2 medium lasers instead, wich would leave the Thug with 1 D-heatsink in the positive and give the thug some more knife range firepower.
Things get even worse if you play lvl 1 tech in 3025 since at close range those twin SRM 4s wont scare even light mechs away.
@@riptors9777 1 ppc and 1 srm? I think we are not on the same page at all and just have different playstyles and experiences. I recommend you run a few more games with the thug to gain more familiarty. You can start with the star league version with ER PPCs if you need to ease in. Or a hatomato chi if you want a challenge.
This argument is old as the mechs themselves so please understand that I don't feel like rehashing it as I know it will go no where and it's quite boring to me now.
I'm not going to fight mlas and srm as well because those are a classic combo and exist in a different paradigm for what I'm talking about. To give you some insight: 2 mlas and 2 srm4 are what I consider minimum combo for consistent 20+ damage at the lightest weight and heat. On paper that combo wouldnt work but in practice, its quite consistent. You will probably find that wrong but that's what I mean by difference in playstyles and experience.
And that's fine. You can keep playing your way, and I'll play mine. The game would be boring if there was only one way to play
If there were two words that would sum up the Thug for me they would be “simple” and “reliable”. Also that “downgrade” is still damn good.
Yeah, as far as Succession War downgrades go, the Thug did ok.
Fully agree. Within the respective TROs the Thug 11E and 10E are excellent designs.
While the standard Warhammer and Marauder are rather fragile, the Thug can dish out and take a beating.
An excellent "anchor" unit for heavy lances.
One of my favorites. This guy is tough, durable and just plain nasty:)
"It just works."
The THG-MF is an absolute beast. Got to love a design with twin Plasma Rifles.
I could see it running a pair of small lasers instead of medium, and try to shoehorn in an ECM.
I could go for that.
You forgot the emotional support/Anti bird poop SPL in the head.
And XL engine designations in your info graphics.
Gotta love the thug 😂 my first campaign to be a part of when I first got into Battletech was my Marauder getting its cockpit punched out by a thug 😂
It just works.
But really the Thug is amazing no matter what form it takes. The fact that there isn't any Clan version still boggles my mind given how tough and effective the base design is.
My brain-canon rationale is that the Warhammer IIC is basically a Thug IIC.
@@MechanicalFrog Okay, I can see that
@MechanicalFrog "Let's just combine the best bits of these two legends of our Star League anscestors."
I bought the Inner Sphere Support Lance simply because it had a Thug in it. I tend to prefer faster mediums and lights, but the Thug really is THAT great.
The Thug I'm currently running is part of a C3B Boosted Company. Dual ER LG Lasers, dual SRM-6's (with two tons of ammo protected by CASE), and a C3B Boosted Master Computer. Maxed armor and 16 double heat sinks keep it relatively cool.
It retains most of the firepower, while gaining that nice C3 bonus that's very difficult to disrupt.
Oo, I've been wanting to get a Dragon since reading "Wolves at the Border" early this year. That's two reasons to buy that box now.
@@anselmoffrisia2930 the entire pack is great! But I could almost resist the others, as I already had minis of them. That Thug gave me the butterflies 🦋🦋
@@ogrehaslayers605 I certainly wouldn't mind the Cyclops either. I already have 4 Spiders I printed though.
Had a thug in Mech warrior 2 mercs it was my Warhammer cope mechanism as the undean had just got going then. Also yes painting more minis a lance of Northwind highlanders!
Sweet ride.
At first glance, the Thug didn’t look like much for an 80 ton assault mech. You soon find out otherwise-as do your opponents.
My favourite assault mech. Put it in any assault formation and it will hold its own. While not a spotlight holder, it will always hold a special place in my heart for just being so damned reliable.
Very well put.
Love the MF variant. Two Plasma Rifles are just nasty, but they fit the theme of the Thug so well!
Of all the mechs, I think the Thug deserved them.
The Mother Fokker variant
We love the Thug because it's a four-letter monosyllabic word in the form of consonant-consonant-vowel-G, and all the best words are like that (see also: FROG)
It's really hard to go wrong with dual PPCs. And then the follow-up wave of SRMs gives you twelve potential chances for critting something out. It's simple and effective. Absolutely love it.
Love how the original weapons payload of the thug remain unchanged from the star league era all the way to to the ilclan era. Dual PPCs and SRMs are timeless for that Thug Life combo.
The Thug is flat-out better than a Warhammer for most things-the problem is it costs 38% more and uses advanced technology to do it. It is rugged, though not quite as much as the Warhammer either. And you can get and run a full Lance of Warhammers for cheaper than three Thugs, too-and for most jobs, a Lance of Warhammers is good enough.
The Thug has aged well, especially the upgrade with ER PPCs, but it's a shame there hasn't been a version with CASE II (not the 13U, it's way too specialized and lacks the long range) to truly set it into the new era. A Sea Fox upgrade package giving it a part-for-part replacement (two Clan ER PPCs, two Clan Streak SRM-6s, two Inner Sphere CASE IIs, and maybe a Clan ECM Suite for some extra defense? kinda like the Wild Geese version) would be a real killer product, i think. There's no real Thug counterpart to the Warhammer 8R-though the appeal of the Thug, perhaps, is that there doesn't really need to be.
I actually appreciate when designs are not 'perfect' Ala the Thug's notorious 'over' sinking.
The Thug is such a beast in almost all its variants....
Fact Check: True.
The Thug sounds like a lot of fun to play.
Always loved piloting the Thug in Mechwarrior 2. The lack of torso twisting made it feel like a spiritual successor to the old WW2 German tank destroyers and assault guns, namely the StuG
Heh.
This is one of my favorite mechs of all time. I was extremely upset when I discovered MW5 Mercs didn’t add it in. Lovely video, sir!
Once you pilot a Thug, you know its *Thug Life for Life*
w3rd
Oh, the Thug… the mech that truly brought me into Battletech, I remember watching something that had art of the Thug and I thought ‘that’s so cool!’ Thanks for doing a video on it!
as soon as the Star League TRO 2750 (1989) was released the Thug was a regular sites on my table. They have a special place in my memory.
I warmly remember one of my thugs wielding a leg of a commando smashing anything that got to close with SRMs and Clubbing, mech was eventually named the Knight Clubber after this became a regular tactic. - it did have a single DHS and 1/2 ton armor removed for an ECM. Ok removed is not correct - more - not replaced after a battle and the ECM was recovered.
One build i did for a clan what if - ended up with 2xATM6 2xERPPC ECM AMS FF +2 DHS
and of course I had to have a jumping thug
Another good one Mr Mech Frog
Thanks for giving the vid a go. I'm glad it has seen some play on your table over the years.
I can attest to the Thug the last time I ran one in a lance with a Catapult K2, Dragon N1 & Hunchback 4G in a Long Ranged Fire lance it didn't disappoint
Glad to hear it.
Why was that hunchie in there? Why not a J or N?
I enjoy all of Mechanical Frog videos
I love using the Thug against clan mechs since its beefy enough to just park in front of several clan mechs for several turns and just absorb damage
It can definitely do that.
I like big stompy robits with guns and lasers. Thus, I love the Thug and all battlemechs, even the Urbanmech.
This is fair.
Another great awesome video there. I've never played with the Thug myself, but I love tinkering around with the design. It's a good solid design.
Put my first Thug on the table recently and it is quickly becoming one of my favorite mechs.
Very well done. I really enjoyed the coverage. A great video, for a great Mech.
Awesome, thank you!
DANG!!! No notification TH-cam!! - just started the video. Thank you much MechFrog!
I'd change the ppc to large lasers and add 2 more medium lasers in the left right torso.
Thank you so much. I absolutely love the Thug! The addition of things like ERPPCs and snub-nosed PPCs feel so right, a machine with the heat-stinks to alpha strike with two SRM-6s and two PPCs deserves PPCs with no minimum range.
I played a Thug in a tournament at a con in like the summer of '95, I didn't win but did go to the second round. The Thug is the best zombie mech, it keeps coming.
A solid pick.
I once ran a 13U in a headhunter lance, very effective at getting in quick, smashing anything at or below its weight and then getting out.
Glad to hear it performed well. Go Thug!
Who else thinks the Thug looks like it needs a mace? And not a nice factory made mace. I mean like a rusty girder with a block of concrete on the end.
Honestly, the -11E and -10E are probably my favorite canon variants of the Thug. And while I do like your THG-MF variant, I still made my own - which I'm sure you expected to happen.
The THG-ISM utilizes, of course, some Clantech in the form of its DHS, XL engine, and internal structure. It replaces the standard gyro with a heavy-duty version, the 15.5 tons of standard armor with 18.5 tons of Hardened armor, and swaps the PPCs for Clan ER versions. It drops the SRMs completely in favor of 2 Medium Re-Engineered Lasers in each side torso, as well as an additional DHS. While this is inadequate to handle the heat load of an alpha strike (38 heat dissipation against 54 heat generated), it negates the need for CASE - which admittedly might be such a good trade-off. Mounting TSM helps to take advantage of the heat load, but still doesn't really make it worth it. I did add jump jets to it as well, which probably doesn't help with the heat but improves its mobility.
In spite of that, I do like it. Plus, if you're familiar with the way 'Mech combat went in the Succession Wars as well as the Clan Invasion and just afterward, a high heat burden would something pilots would be used to.
I'll forgive the Clan XL... this time. :D
@@MechanicalFrog Oh, thank you, mighty MechFrog.
Mech Frog showed me this beauty. Gonna see if I can get me one of them in the future. Would pair nicely with an Awesome. Making it an Awesome Thug lance. Cheers
Love how the corporate shenanigans continue with the Kuritans mixing the Thug load out with the Charger chassis .
Such a solid mech , anything that can cop engine crits and that you can still just hold the trigger down is fantastic
The original Thug is the definition of "Simple and Effective" as far as Assault Battlemechs go.
I prefer the Victor in MWO and MW5 for its jumpjets enabling it to perform "shock infantry" duty, but if confined to the tabletop, a THG-11E would be a superior choice methinks to most Victors.
I run a Mixed tech thug with clan double heat sinks, ferro fibrous armor, ER PPCs and 4 medium pulse lasers. Basically a 10E that swaps everything but the engine and chassis.
Sounds like a beast.
@@MechanicalFrog it's not bad. Have to watch out for overheating. I made it to show a friend who was getting into the game how mixed tech works. Now he plays mostly mixed tech inner sphear mechs 😂
The only modification I'd do to my stock thug would be to pull 4 very much not really needed DHS and add 4 medium lasers massively beefs up the close up close punch and can still fire a PPC every other turn when using the SRMs and medium lasers
I'll allow it. :D
Me personally, I'd swap the regular SRMs for Streaks, but having more medium lasers for a nice disco death lightshow... can't argue with that.
I loved the Thug since I I first saw it in MW2 Mercenaries!
Solid game. Put way too many hours into it.
Thug just all around bad ass.
Only thing I would change on the Royal variant with the ER PPC's is going to four streak-2's in the SL era.
Then that leaves the options of getting rid of a extra ton of ammo, and case in a torso if desired. I'd go 19th Double heatsink, and a half to of whatever.
Its just some mercs from the periphery what could they possibly bring?
New target: Thug THG-11E
Oh......that explains the green paint, bloody SLDF descendan-
*Signal lost due to cockpit destruction due to two PPC's to the head*
I love my tabletop mercs' Thug, an old relic of their past. Were they a good SLDF unit back in their day? No,they ended up deserting when they were cut off from friendly support and trapped in the periphery. The mercs they would go on to create? Much braver than their ancestors. With a current total of 5 lances its a good force,though the Thug is the only mech that is in its original SLDF configuration.
I didn’t like the Thug at first. Until I played MW5 and used the Awesome. Sure, the Awesome is heavily armored and packs a wallop, but in anything except straight defensive and offensive actions, it’s slow speed leaves it vulnerable.
The Thug is an awesome with better close range firepower, speed and even heavier armor, and for no real loss in firepower as apparently Awesome pilots didn’t often fire more than 2 PPCs at once.
After slogging through artillery fire in a slow Awesome, the Thug would do mighty fine as a replacement.
It is not often that you hear of a mech, regardless of it's class, weight, or use case, that's *so good* that the great houses _didn't_ want to send them into the meat grinder of the succession wars and kept them like prized possessions. That should say something about the design. I admittedly never thought about the Thug that much until I watched this video. Maybe I'll give it another run if I ever encounter it in the various games I play. :)
This is the sort of comment that makes it all worthwhile.
@@MechanicalFrog Happy to make your day go a little bit better! Loving the content. You and BigRed are my two main go-to guys for Battletech stuffs. :D
I've pulled the SRM's out of an 11E as well as the left PPC to put a targeting computer and LRM15 in the right and left torso respectively, two Defiance C9M clan-grade ER Medium Lasers each in the left arm and center torso, and shaved one ton of armor and I think a few heat sinks to fit. Still fully cooled and it's a mid-range monster
Interesting direction you took with it to make it a more long-range stand off mech.
@@MechanicalFrog To be 100% honest, I was looking to make these changes to a Zeus instead, but the Zeus has no hands and also has *literally never* been produced in an Endo-Steel frame. I then found the Thug and discovered that everything was already kinda in the spots I wanted it.
Also the Thug is much cooler looking than a Zeus.
18:20 loaded with infernos, of course 🤠.
and Heat Seeking Warheads for the other ton?
@@tomcowan7695 didn't think of that one. I like your train of thought 😎.
Great video! I like the Thug. Looking forward to more videos.
Appreciate it!
A great Star League era Mech. Always took one for a ComGuard unit.
A solid pick.
@@MechanicalFrog I do find it a better choice due to the extra armor, as I always have to keep any Warhammer I got slightly in the back as close-support just because it can't take take a lot of punishement.
In that regard, I would grab it for a mercenary unit as well.
Honestly, I just like the idea that someone used those hands to grab an enemy mech and hold them still in front of their chest.
Then they dumped as many SRM's in to them as it took with no chance of missing.
I'm not a big fan myself, even though it is a solid design. But my first thought seeing it was they took bits of the Zeus, Warhammer, and Titan and crammed them all together.
(Yeah, I know the Titan is only marginally canon, having only appeared in the Battetechnology magazine. But it's hard to ignore 2 PPCs, 6 ML, and 22 SRMs...)
The combination of TSM and Ballistic armour makes me think the 13U was designed specifically for hot environments. It seems like a mech designed to brawl in a Solaris arena filled with lava.
I used a Thug 11E my last game. Charged it into the fray to cover my medium units and had it punching, kicking, and shooting, as you do with a Thug. Got a nice end of game kill on a Crusader, even after its whole right side was blown off from an ammo-crit. Thug life baby!
You know, the Thug was never one of my favorites to use in my lances, but perhaps I should reconsider that going forward. Always had a preference for the Awesome for PPC shenanigans.
Give it a try and see what happens.
I love this mech it does well with its mix if not number of weapons...sometimes less is more :-) we love the thug cause it looks good and hits hard :-) a regular opponent of mine loves the ppc and this is one of his must go toos so ive learnt to respect it :-)
I heard about the 3 Hppc thug and the Awesome 8Q came to mind.
Thug is an anagram for "Oh my God, we're about to get horribly killed !"
Never used it, never owned a model, never even sat in the cockpit in a game.
Why do I love the Thug? Honestly, the name.
We love the Thug when we cant get our hands on an Awesome, Marauder or Warhammer. Ride the lightning to victory, and stand on their smoking scrap!
I'll take a Thug over an Awesome any day.
I've never played a Thug before, it may be time to remedy that.
Definitely.
I really, really like the Thug. Pretty much the only thing that could make me like the Thug even more would be if there were a standard variant that could jump, but that would probably only be achievable by under-sinking it more or doing something like what you did with the XL gyro. Zombie mechs are my jam, the Grasshopper is my favorite mech, so obviously I dig the Thug.
18:33 that could have been two flamers 🙂🔥👩🚒🧑🚒❤🔥.
Missed opportunity.
Thug is good, so I like it. While it may be slightly undergunned for it's weight class, I think the extra mobility more than makes up for it.
Side note, my theory for the extra double heat sinks is actually for if the thug takes an engine hit. If it's engine is damaged, it can still run and alpha strike and have 1 heat capacity to spare. I feel it gives it slightly more longevity, though how much more value that longevity brings is debateable.
I hope this can be on MWO Legends.
I tried the ilclan era Version last week, this Thing is a real menace in City fights
This is one of my fave mechs and I used it in my first league to end up winning the B side
The Thug: Because a hamner may be simple, but sometimes all you really need is a hammer.
Loved it since the day I picked up TRO 2750. Only thing better in that TRO was the passage on Highlander Burials (and perhaps the original warship pics)
I made my own silly variant based on 11E with two plasma rifles and one ton of inferno missiles for the SRM-6 in addition to a ton of regular missiles.
I play both IF and Clans. The Thug is one of like, maybe four of my Inner Sphere mechs I don't have to worry about. (The others are my Zeus, Awesome, and strangely enough my Caesar holds better than my King Crab) which for Inner Sphere mechs is rare.
Meanwhile my Clan mechs, I basically don't worry about.
But the Thug in particular, is tough enough to tank any singular hit, and can generally give as good as it gets. In a game where I can pick my weapons, I'd trade in the srms for lasers, just for battlefield longevity, but they work in the games.
Other than some of the variants being under-sinked, I have always thought that the Thug is a decent machine.
Quite solid.
Sometimes you just need a brick house for a mech
Very true.
My favorite comes from a Merc who served with Amaris a stealth thug
Sneaky Thug.
@@MechanicalFrogSnug, if you will.
The same day i read the novel i got the quote from it in the video.
The Thug:
What happens when someone redesigns a Warhammer so they can market it for House Steiner.
The TSM Thug would likely have been served better by moving the snubs to the torso, but that might have put critical space at too much a premium. Always found that two chances to punch with the upper body track is more advantageous than a single kick with the lower.
I love it because it is simple, and gives me an excuse to utter the pun "thug around and find out." I do prefer the one with the kurita body kit, but with the classic thug loadout (aka put the dhs back in, comstar isn't looking).
there is little i could do to improve it beyond ditching some dhs to add case II but that is such a minor change. and with it being so oversinked the ERPPCs of the royal version and later 12E sort of make sense as you paid for the entire thermometer, you might as well use it to shoot rather than just as TAC absorbers.
PS: on the Wild Geese version you (visually) list it as having 3 clan erppcs instead of two. audio correctly mentions it as having two
My fav inner sphere mech
Fun one.
I mean, I'm one of those "it's a worse Warhammer" guy- but I like to look at the pricetag. The Thug is a classic menace, and the setting is better for having it- even if I don't like it very much for my own lances.
It's not for everyone and that's ok. :D
@@MechanicalFrog
I don't see being oversynched as a problem, depending on the loadout. I'd rather my mech be cool as a winter day in Fargo as opposed to alpha striking and then giving my lance mates an early sunrise
I always wonder why the Thug never got a 2750 Era "All Energy" variant. The "All Energy" Warhammer seems to be from that time period and switching the SRMs for a Medium and M-Pulse + Heat Sink (getting to 20 Doubles). Yes, a bit less damage in the M-Laser/SRM long range bracket but lasers are more constant in damage and require no resupply.
I expected Plasma Rifles for the MF variant and was not disappointed
I know what people want.