Tony, that is a really impressive system you have built there. Very impressive. Maybe the sap will start running again after this polar vortex passes! John
Yeah, I’m kind of about the same. I’m an ASE certified mechanic by trade and I do alarm systems now for a living, so I am pretty mechanical and electronic strong. I just wasn’t sure where you got the big pipe and the ends. I think the rest of it I can figure out. I’ll do some looking around and I’ll let you know if I find anything. If you could, could you take a close-up of what you had mailed on the plexiglass ends and what you used for clips that would be great. Other than that, I’m pretty sure I can figure the other stuff out. I appreciate any help. Thanks so much. Thanks.
Yeah, I’m kind of about the same. I’m an ASE certified mechanic by trade and I do alarm systems now for a living, so I am pretty mechanical and electronic strong. I just wasn’t sure where you got the big pipe and the ends. I think the rest of it I can figure out. I’ll do some looking around and I’ll let you know if I find anything. Thanks.
Very cool and neat setup. You truly flexed some engineering skills on the build. I’m curious as to why you are releasing the vacuum out of the releaser when you have a sensor and pumps. Wouldn’t it have made more sense to plumb a shallow well pump on sap exit side and used the sensor to trigger on the pump to drain the extractor without losing vacuum? Also where did you source your plex glass end caps. I’m doing a build with float less sensors and c900 pipe but have not come up with end caps yet
From a total efficiency standpoint, yes. And if we were a larger operation, or concerned only with getting the maximum volume of sap from every tree, then yes, pumping down the releaser while maintaining vacuum makes perfect sense. But there's something else in play here, for us at least. We are hobby producers, just a small scale operation. And while we believe that form should follow function, it still needs to be a close race........ meaning that "how" it's done, is very nearly as important as "getting it done". There's a certain...sexiness(?) in how an old style, conventional releaser works. It's in the very name: releaser. It's able to pull a vacuum on the sap, then release the vacuum to allow the sap to dump while maintaining vacuum on the lines, then reset and pull down again. It's mechanical poetry of a sort, that you just can't get from a shallow well pump under constant vacuum. Sorry for the long winded answer! I sourced our plexiglass from eBay of all places, found a seller who had precut rounds, 1" thick. The $$$ part was finding a machine shop to turn them down to the finished diameter. Thanks for the comment, good luck with your build!
Also to get the float down lower than the bottom of the releaser, I assume you used a short piece of 1 inch with a cap so you could put the bolt down through so that the float would sit recessed?
Well, we're small scale producers. I enjoy scaling down the technology used by large operations, and adapting/building it to suit our needs. I'm just not sure that given our inefficiencies, if a dedicated dry line would be worth the effort? Interesting idea though! Thanks for commenting!
@@bbfarmsmaple8011 It seems like it's possible to double the throughput. The exhaust (push) of the pump routed up to the beginning (end) of the vacuum (pull) line. (I'm speculating and contemplating. It seems like a semi closed (controlled sap outlet) loop.)
Great video thanks. Do you have any type of drawing or parts list for that homemade releaser. I’m a fairly small producer with 60 trees. And I just can’t afford to buy a professional releaser so I would like to try to build one myself. Thanks for any help. Fred
Hmmm. I don't have any drawings, sorry! I'm kind of a "it's all in my head" kinda' guy. I will say that the most difficult, expensive parts of the project was sourcing the large diameter schedule 80 pipe, and having the plexiglass ends machined to fit. Everything else was put together with off the shelf components. If you have a question about a particular component or process, I will try to help. Thanks for watching!
Curious question all my maple lines will have a slight down hill to them, but where my manifold goes the line from the manifold up to the vacuum releaser will be slightly uphill. Will that be a problem? Thanks Fred
Hmm. I'm not sure. I suspect that you might get more surging, as the sap builds up in the low spot, then gets sucked into the releaser, then repeats. Doesn't mean it won't work, but might not be as efficient. If you can make changes to eliminate the uphill run on the manifold, I think it would be worth it.
I think this may be correct the bottom float triggers when it goes down so it triggers on normally open, which closes and opens the corresponding valve, and the top float triggers on normally closed, which flips the valves the other way Is that right? If not, I still need your help. Thanks again.
The check valve that releases and dumps sap into the transfer tank doesn't have a spring, but the check valve on the incoming sap line from the trees had a spring, but I removed it.
Fantastic thanks so much. I found a friend of mine that does a bunch of dirt work and he has a bunch of pieces of that pipe that he said I can have . For the end cap would 1/2” plexiglass be sufficient?
I kinda doubt that 1/2" would hold up, but I'm certainly not an expert. I feel like the diameter of the pipe, and the level of vacuum in the chamber would come into play. I seem to recall seeing specs for a 10" cylinder, (what I used), requiring 3/4". I ended up with 1" thick stuff, because that's what I found first.
We pump out through 3/4" mainline. The 4008 pump is rated at 3 gpm, and the releaser dumps 6.5 gallons at a time. Never actually timed it, but I would estimate 2.5 minutes to pump that up to the sugarhouse, so I don't believe we are losing much volume to head pressure. We do have a larger pump available, but at this point I'm not sure if swapping it out is warranted, as the 3gpm pump is working well for us.
Am trying to figure out your float wiring. I ordered the same stainless steel double float that you have but I’m a little confused on the wiring. So the bottom float, you said it goes up as the level rises and when it gets to the top float and the float goes up, it triggers the valves to basically go backwards which I understand but then you said when the top flow goes down and the bottom float goes down. Nothing happens because the tank will be empty so how does sap get back in to raise the bottom float to change everything if you have no vacuumto open the check valve to allow more sap in? I think I’m pretty set on everything else except for this. I appreciate any help and or feedback. Thank you so much for your time and your help. By all means if a phone call may be easier for you. I do not have a problem giving you my personal email and my phone number. Fred
Okay, I may have notes on the wiring down in the pump shed. I will try to look tomorrow night. In a nutshell, it works like this: There's a ball valve that opens to allow air into the chamber to break, or release the vacuum. There's another ball valve that closes to shut off the vacuum line from the pump. So, when sap is coming into the releaser, the valve to the pump is open. Allowing vacuum to fill the releaser. The valve that allows air into the chamber is closed. Sap level begins to rise in the chamber, raising the bottom float. Nothing happens when the bottom float raises. (That's not really true, but I'll cover that shortly) sap level keeps raising until the upper float rises, then the ball valve to the vacuum pump closes, while the valve that allows air into the releaser opens... vacuum is released and the sap drains out the bottom of the releaser, and the upper float drops, but nothing happens until the releaser is empty and the lower float drops, at which point the valve to the pump opens again, while the valve that allows air in, closes. Vacuum builds in the releaser, and sap starts coming in again. This happens over and over. In short, the lower float raises, nothing happens. The upper float raises, which causes the ball valves to change state. Sap begins to drain out, the upper float drops, nothing happens, until the lower float drops which resets everything. It's all done by the two float switches, a relay, and a self holding circuit. I'll look for a diagram. Yes, the bottom float drops into a well, I think I used 1.5"pvc for that.
Tony, that is a really impressive system you have built there. Very impressive. Maybe the sap will start running again after this polar vortex passes! John
Thanks John, it works better than I had hoped!
Great Info thanks. I think he has 8” but it’s free so I’ll do my best to make it work. Thanks again for the help.
Very cool. Thank you for sharing
Appreciate the comment!
Yeah, I’m kind of about the same. I’m an ASE certified mechanic by trade and I do alarm systems now for a living, so I am pretty mechanical and electronic strong. I just wasn’t sure where you got the big pipe and the ends. I think the rest of it I can figure out. I’ll do some looking around and I’ll let you know if I find anything. If you could, could you take a close-up of what you had mailed on the plexiglass ends and what you used for clips that would be great. Other than that, I’m pretty sure I can figure the other stuff out. I appreciate any help. Thanks so much.
Thanks.
Yeah, I’m kind of about the same. I’m an ASE certified mechanic by trade and I do alarm systems now for a living, so I am pretty mechanical and electronic strong. I just wasn’t sure where you got the big pipe and the ends. I think the rest of it I can figure out. I’ll do some looking around and I’ll let you know if I find anything. Thanks.
Both the pipe and the ends came from....... EBay of all places. Good luck with your build!
Very cool and neat setup. You truly flexed some engineering skills on the build. I’m curious as to why you are releasing the vacuum out of the releaser when you have a sensor and pumps.
Wouldn’t it have made more sense to plumb a shallow well pump on sap exit side and used the sensor to trigger on the pump to drain the extractor without losing vacuum?
Also where did you source your plex glass end caps. I’m doing a build with float less sensors and c900 pipe but have not come up with end caps yet
From a total efficiency standpoint, yes. And if we were a larger operation, or concerned only with getting the maximum volume of sap from every tree, then yes, pumping down the releaser while maintaining vacuum makes perfect sense.
But there's something else in play here, for us at least. We are hobby producers, just a small scale operation. And while we believe that form should follow function, it still needs to be a close race........ meaning that "how" it's done, is very nearly as important as "getting it done".
There's a certain...sexiness(?) in how an old style, conventional releaser works. It's in the very name: releaser. It's able to pull a vacuum on the sap, then release the vacuum to allow the sap to dump while maintaining vacuum on the lines, then reset and pull down again. It's mechanical poetry of a sort, that you just can't get from a shallow well pump under constant vacuum. Sorry for the long winded answer!
I sourced our plexiglass from eBay of all places, found a seller who had precut rounds, 1" thick. The $$$ part was finding a machine shop to turn them down to the finished diameter.
Thanks for the comment, good luck with your build!
Also to get the float down lower than the bottom of the releaser, I assume you used a short piece of 1 inch with a cap so you could put the bolt down through so that the float would sit recessed?
Fantastic thanks so much
Awesome build. One physical issue is with your handling of the concept of vacuum though.
Thanks! It worked great last season, looking forward to adding additional lines for next season!
Have you considered the benefits of adding a dry line to the system?
Well, we're small scale producers. I enjoy scaling down the technology used by large operations, and adapting/building it to suit our needs. I'm just not sure that given our inefficiencies, if a dedicated dry line would be worth the effort? Interesting idea though! Thanks for commenting!
@@bbfarmsmaple8011 It seems like it's possible to double the throughput. The exhaust (push) of the pump routed up to the beginning (end) of the vacuum (pull) line. (I'm speculating and contemplating. It seems like a semi closed (controlled sap outlet) loop.)
Great video thanks. Do you have any type of drawing or parts list for that homemade releaser. I’m a fairly small producer with 60 trees. And I just can’t afford to buy a professional releaser so I would like to try to build one myself. Thanks for any help.
Fred
Hmmm. I don't have any drawings, sorry! I'm kind of a "it's all in my head" kinda' guy. I will say that the most difficult, expensive parts of the project was sourcing the large diameter schedule 80 pipe, and having the plexiglass ends machined to fit. Everything else was put together with off the shelf components. If you have a question about a particular component or process, I will try to help. Thanks for watching!
Curious question all my maple lines will have a slight down hill to them, but where my manifold goes the line from the manifold up to the vacuum releaser will be slightly uphill. Will that be a problem?
Thanks
Fred
Hmm. I'm not sure. I suspect that you might get more surging, as the sap builds up in the low spot, then gets sucked into the releaser, then repeats. Doesn't mean it won't work, but might not be as efficient. If you can make changes to eliminate the uphill run on the manifold, I think it would be worth it.
Thanks so much
I think this may be correct the bottom float triggers when it goes down so it triggers on normally open, which closes and opens the corresponding valve, and the top float triggers on normally closed, which flips the valves the other way Is that right? If not, I still need your help. Thanks again.
I think you've got it!
Also, are you running all 5/16 lines?
We are transitioning over to 5/16", but still have 3 lines that are 3/16"
By the way, you can change that from Celsius to Fahrenheit
Thanks for the info!
Starting to put a list together. Do use spring check valves?
Thanks
The check valve that releases and dumps sap into the transfer tank doesn't have a spring, but the check valve on the incoming sap line from the trees had a spring, but I removed it.
Fantastic thanks so much. I found a friend of mine that does a bunch of dirt work and he has a bunch of pieces of that pipe that he said I can have . For the end cap would 1/2” plexiglass be sufficient?
I kinda doubt that 1/2" would hold up, but I'm certainly not an expert. I feel like the diameter of the pipe, and the level of vacuum in the chamber would come into play. I seem to recall seeing specs for a 10" cylinder, (what I used), requiring 3/4". I ended up with 1" thick stuff, because that's what I found first.
How fair are you pumping with the transfer pump and about how high.
We have 30' of elevation, and a transfer distance of approx 65'. Hope this helps!
@bbfarmsmaple8011
What size pump out line are you using and what are yoy getting for a flow rate?
We pump out through 3/4" mainline. The 4008 pump is rated at 3 gpm, and the releaser dumps 6.5 gallons at a time. Never actually timed it, but I would estimate 2.5 minutes to pump that up to the sugarhouse, so I don't believe we are losing much volume to head pressure. We do have a larger pump available, but at this point I'm not sure if swapping it out is warranted, as the 3gpm pump is working well for us.
@bbfarmsmaple8011 thank you very much for that information
Am trying to figure out your float wiring. I ordered the same stainless steel double float that you have but I’m a little confused on the wiring. So the bottom float, you said it goes up as the level rises and when it gets to the top float and the float goes up, it triggers the valves to basically go backwards which I understand but then you said when the top flow goes down and the bottom float goes down. Nothing happens because the tank will be empty so how does sap get back in to raise the bottom float to change everything if you have no vacuumto open the check valve to allow more sap in? I think I’m pretty set on everything else except for this. I appreciate any help and or feedback. Thank you so much for your time and your help. By all means if a phone call may be easier for you. I do not have a problem giving you my personal email and my phone number.
Fred
Okay, I may have notes on the wiring down in the pump shed. I will try to look tomorrow night. In a nutshell, it works like this:
There's a ball valve that opens to allow air into the chamber to break, or release the vacuum. There's another ball valve that closes to shut off the vacuum line from the pump. So, when sap is coming into the releaser, the valve to the pump is open. Allowing vacuum to fill the releaser. The valve that allows air into the chamber is closed. Sap level begins to rise in the chamber, raising the bottom float. Nothing happens when the bottom float raises. (That's not really true, but I'll cover that shortly) sap level keeps raising until the upper float rises, then the ball valve to the vacuum pump closes, while the valve that allows air into the releaser opens... vacuum is released and the sap drains out the bottom of the releaser, and the upper float drops, but nothing happens until the releaser is empty and the lower float drops, at which point the valve to the pump opens again, while the valve that allows air in, closes. Vacuum builds in the releaser, and sap starts coming in again. This happens over and over.
In short, the lower float raises, nothing happens. The upper float raises, which causes the ball valves to change state. Sap begins to drain out, the upper float drops, nothing happens, until the lower float drops which resets everything.
It's all done by the two float switches, a relay, and a self holding circuit. I'll look for a diagram. Yes, the bottom float drops into a well, I think I used 1.5"pvc for that.