1047 Battlecruisers - Guide 185 (NB)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ย. 2024
- The 1047 class, never-built battlecruisers of the Royal Dutch Navy, are today's subject.
Want to support the channel? - / drachinifel
Want a shirt/mug/hoodie - shop.spreadshi...
Want a medal? - www.etsy.com/u...
Want to talk about ships? / discord
Want to get some books? www.amazon.co.uk/shop/drachinifel
Drydock Episodes in podcast format - / user-21912004
Next on the list:
-Battle class
-HMS Caroline
-All-big-gun designs
-Daring class
-USS Indianapolis
-Atago/Takao
-Midway class
-Graf Zeppelin
-Bathurst class
-RHS Queen Olga
-HMS Belfast
-Aurora
-Imperator Nikolai I
-USS Helena
-USS Tennesse
-HMNZS New Zealand
-HMS Queen Mary
-USS Marblehead
-New York class
-L-20e
-Abdiel class
-Panserskib (Armoured ship) Rolf Krake
-HMS Victoria
-HMS Charybdis
-Eidsvold class
-IJN “Special” DD's
-SMS Emden
-Ships of Battle of Campeche
-USS England (DE-635)
-Tashkent
-1934A Class
-HMS Plym (K271)
-Siegfried class
Music - / ncmepicmusic
Pinned post for Q&A :)
You mention that the Scharnhost Class made an impression. Mind going over more detail what Impact the revel of it had?
Do you know the Anime/Games Azur Lane and Kancolle respectively and what are your thoughts about those 2?
At the same token: was/is Sand Diego truly "NR. 1" when one counts battle stars per ton displacement?
A number of British ships seem to have a habit of escaping. Do you think this was a call from the battleship gods that the UK should have kept at least one also if Warspite had been saved where she should have gone regardless of the logistics of getting her there?
Hi Drachinifel. Thanks for yet another amazing video. Just a quick question, which, if any, of the German First World War dreadnoughts and battle cruisers would have been worth modernising/rebuilding for 2nd World War use if they had been able to survive in a different Treaty of Versailles world?
The Royal Navy is making a new class of ten new Destroyers and five Carriers. What would name the classes and the ships
In a previous drydock you showed a picture of a Kamikaze attack on HMS Sussex and the plane is a ZERO but it actually isn't, what aircraft is it as to me it looks like a VAL with the fixed landing gear?
damn we orderd battlecruiser parts not an entire occuping army.
German manager with a weird moustache: “It’s on the house”
The lads were just passing so we thought we'd pop in and see how things were going.
the german's executed hostile takeover of dutch ship manufacturing
Yeah, the Germans definitely tended to let their Scouting trips get out of hand those days
@@markkim7348 EST IST NACH ZU HAUS SHEISSEKOPF
main lesson to be learned from the first few minutes: 'when the dutch start looking at capital ships. a world war is imminent'. never knew we were so prophetic. love the broad pick of 'whatever ships seems interesting' drach! learned so much from this channel.
Well. It's less messy then goat entrails.
Carch P. Glauca Then it should be of some concern that the Dutch MoD is right now not just looking into building a new batch of subs, but they’ve also got... preliminary designs for a replacement for the M-class, AND it’s being built in cooperation with Germany...
@@Erdanya We're also getting a new supply ship and 6 new minehunters...
You know that during the Cold War one of the actual indicators used to track whether war was imminent was watching the churches to see if any were taking down their stained glass windows. In both wars they had "the inside track".
Whenever dutch defense spending is at its lowest something bad happens. 1672 1800 1914 1939.....2 years ago dutch defense spending was at its lowest since belgian independence. The netherlands will never learn.
Unfortunately, the British had since secured their harbors better and so the, **ahem** traditional method of Dutch capital ship acquisition was off the table.
Yes well. I don't see them trying that again.
😂
@@bigblue6917 They're just lulling the Brits into complaisance. :)
Then again, maybe someone might consider Putting the Medway to Shame in a video game.
That bulbous bow was designed to be efficient in breaking chains.
My brain saw the title and goes "Ah yes, turreted battle cruisers from the year 1047. Nothing out of the ordinary." before commiting a hard reset.
I got a good laugh out of that one!
Now That'd be an interesting thing indeed, although honestly seeing Ballista's and catapults where the main form of armanent it's also not that odd
How do you perform "hard reset"?
Error 406 Brain suffered failure on launch
llib get blackout drunk and reboot in the morning
"The Germans showed up at the border and they weren't stopping"
"Gekoloni-"
"NEIN"
NEIN GET OUT YOU ARE TO LOUD AND YOU RUIN THE TULIPS !!!
O yes , the Tour de Europe of 1940 , an excelent example of german will to winn the tour :)
The Germans where stopped by the Dutch. There was just a surrender after the Germans started bombing civilian population (Rotterdam)
@@aartdegraaf6754 we surrendered before that but because of a miscommunication they bombed Rotterdam anyway
I have arrived faster than Admiral Fisher when anyone suggests armoring a ship.
You mean installing bigger engines?
Why not both!
@@steakthedoggaming5333 Both is unsporting, obviously.
@@magisterrleth3129 It is not!
Engines sound like armor to me
I absolutely love talking about ships that were never started or completed. Its absolutely fascinating how things would have looked had some of them be completed.
Especially these Dutch battlecruisers.
Fantastic work as always Drach.
I know right, every time I see the (NB) tag on a Drach video I get happy. Theres just something I find really interesting about the ships that were never finished
Agreed, got a bit of an obsesion with CVA-01 myself
@@themadhammer3305 I'm a Montana fan as Louisiana BB 71 was the last battleship authorized by Congress. And I'm a Louisiana native.
I also wonder about how the Lion class or the post war British super cruisers would have really looked.
@@admiraltiberius1989 Lion would have looked like Vanguard, but with 3x3 16" instead of 2x4 15". Vanguard's design was basically that of Lion's, but modified to carry the spare 15" guns that they had leftover from the conversion of Courageous and Glorious to aircraft carriers.
We are, as ever, in your debt for such superb work, Drach. Also, "Dutch capital ship" is a phrase that always makes me do a double take.
Yeah it's one of those sentences you'd need to hear twice to just confirm that it wasn't a fluke
Battle cruisers were a proven deterrent for small navies. The mere existence of HMAS Australia in 1914 caused the German Pacific squadron to avoid that part of the world and instead they tried to get home the long way via Cape Horn where it was destroyed off the Falkland Islands. As Drach said, the Dutch knew they couldn't defeat the Japanese, but the presence of a couple of battle cruisers might make them look elsewhere for oil and rubber.
Hey they even had carriers...besides theyre super rich large economy so why not. The only problem they have always had was manpower.
Oh almighty! Ship jesus has again blessed us with knowledge in an otherwise mundane quarantine-era weekend.
keith moore yes
@keith moore Good idea
A similar video to The Chieftain and Ian’s video on the Sherman tank, but it’s Drach and Ian on the USS Texas.
@@lovelybraintoaster164 not sure that is legal or ever going to happeb but I want so bad
Aargh ! Germans !
looks like they would have been lovely ships. a shame they never got built.
Let's start a 'Go Fund Me' page.
Up at 4:30AM on the Pacific Coast of Canada, the rum is almost gone, waiting for something like this.
1047 battle cruisers that is a lot
Werner?
Never even heard of these plans. Good stuff Drach!!!!!
Nice video Drachinifel ! An excellent video that once again amplifies the point that if a country tries to build a battle ship it had to first build the infrastructure to support them.Too many countries that didn't have the resources to build battleships thought that building battlecruisers would be easier. The idea of battlecruisers seemed to imply that the government wasn't being the war aggressor, plus the wrong idea that they would be cheaper. As it happened, Germany invaded the Netherlands, and Japan took their overseas colonies without much effort anyway.
What a happy coincidence that I was doing some research on this ship design at the same time this was uploaded
Drach can you make an Analysis video regarding Fisher's Large "light" cruisers and Either Deutchland or the Cruiser "killers" *cough*Battlecruiser*cough*
He already did the Courageous-class.
when your having design problems and customer care shows up free of charge
Honestly Netherlands if you want capital ships wait until just after a war, not just before it. They could have bought the Bayern and maybe a couple of other German ships from the British before they were scuttled at Scapa Flow.
Have you considered to make videos about specific nations and their naval policies in different time periods. Like France 1919-39 Sweden prior to ww1 Soviet prior to 1939 Turkey 1908-1918 1919-39 1945 to 74 etc etc etc etc.
In my version of Furushita's Fleet, the Derfflinger and Lutzow mutinied while enroute to Scapa Flow., made a dash for Dutch waters and were interned. The crews were repatriated to Germany and the RN, not wanting to start another war, left it at that. The Dutch then paid the cash strapped Weimar Republic a modest mount and got two capital ships on the cheap, the Zeven Provincien and Prins van Oranje. In the mid-Thirties they were modernized ala HMS Renown and emerged with 4X2 11 inch, 6X2 4.7 inch and 8X2 40mm. At the same time, the Dutch ordered the 1047's, so the IJN faced two battlecruisers and three armored cruisers in the Dutch East Indies in 1942. Your roll, honorable Japanese player.
Send the Kido Butai?
I would like to see this ship given life in World of Warships.
They could, there could be Premium or a tech tree given to the Pan-Europeans
It would probably be very easy. Just modify the data for a Scharnhorst (Lowering armour, increasing the speed).
It would be much better than the Scharnhorst, cause it would not be German..
I would love this. It would make a nice T9 large cruiser.
o dear that would be something , imagine this ship was completed with the bofors developed during ww2 the same ones as fitted on the friesland. a battle cruiser with 3 frieslands strapped to it. 35 knots and ripping through cruisers and destroyers.
Guess we'll be seeing these in a future WOWS tech tree up-date.
a true prophet you where
Just letting you know I'd be interested in a video on the development of Ironclads until pre-dreadnought, and/or what a navy in this transitional time might look like. Similar to your 'sail to steam to iron' video.
When that thumbnail popped up in my feed I first thought it looked like some sort of insane postmodern sheet music. Took a while to see what it actually was.
I'd really like to know more about the drawings used in this production. Many years ago, for a novel I was writing, I concocted a fictitious German battlecruiser that wound up looking very much like this Dutch ship.
Good to have a paced and scripted commentary. Makes for a great video. Well done.
I liked the video if only for the fact that for the first time @ 4:40 you pronounced Wichita almost 100% correct for the first time. :)
So the lesson to be taken here:
If the Dutch want to build a capital ship... head for the bunkers...
Ought to be just about any day now, I imagine.......
As your prior videos have explained, the Swedes actually executed this "just a little too tough to comfortably swallow up" strategy and deterred the Germans.
Uh, no they did not. They exported so many war materials to the nazis that they didn't need to invade. Much like Switzerland, which effectively allied with Hitler to make sure they wouldn't be invaded.
Although admittedly, unlike the Swiss, Sweden didn't get dirty by doing things like selling Jews for extermination purposes.
*"A more compact, but harder to maintain German design..."*
Hey I've been hoping you'd cover these ships for awhile now. Awesome. Thanks again.
Drach, thank you so much for getting the volume level for your intro. The music is harder to hear now but I wasn't hearing it at all when I skipped straight to 0:32 every video.
about time :-) i have a transcript of the article published in a leaflet about the funding for these 3 ships, the dutch company "Unilever" was actually going to put the 74.5 million florins these 3 ships would cost on the table.
private financing for capital ships, something even Trump has not managed yet.
i also have the line plan and have been working on a model (with breaks due to changes in life) for years.
Mine is called "Hr Ms Eendracht"
I like these ships.
They seem like great ships for taking on Japanese cruisers (though torpedo tubes might have helped in this)...which is what they were designed to do.
Thank you for this video.
Way overkill and cost-ineffective for taking out mere cruisers. The only way ships like this can justify themselves is if a) they kill other capital ships and b) there is no better way of killing capital ships (which wasn’t the case by the late 1930s onwards).
@@bkjeong4302 Yet another TH-camr who assumes someone meant something that they never actually said. I never said they were cost effective or smart things to build. All I said was they would be great for taking on Japanese cruisers - which is what they were designed for ('The Dutch believed that if war broke out, Japan's capital ships would be preoccupied with the battleships of the United States Navy and the British Royal Navy, meaning that the defenses of the East Indies would need to cope only with Japan's cruisers.' en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_1047_battlecruiser)
@Nguyen Johnathan They were designed to defend colonies from Japanese cruisers as it was thought (and rightly so) that the main Japanese units would be used elsewhere.
McRocket
And the problem is that the very idea behind their design was strategically flawed. The only good reason to build capital ships is to kill enemy capital ships, they just cost too much for anything else.
@@bkjeong4302 Mr. Smarty pants, Building these ships yes they arr costly but these are what that country needed at the time, not the aircraft carriers cause they arr not still viable in the 30s, and dude like drach said these are not yout usual capital ships cause these arre designed to face japanese light forces, who knows if they might face Capital ships but the idea is taking cruisers,
Opposite to most people, I found this channel and THEN downloaded world of warships. This channel is awesome. Ships are awesome!
+The Rocinante
not that uncommon though...
I arrived here first too. I loved the Bismark article and then broadened my interest. Then I listened to Jingles for a quite a while before getting my feet wet on WoW Blitz (I don't have enough disk space for the PC Version).
@@Tuning3434 More common than I thought I suppose!
Well, this was interesting, I wonder how much effect these BCs could have had in the pacific had they been ordered and built several years earlier.
They would definitely have been a early thorn in Japan's side for taking the Dutch east Indies. They wouldn't have stopped the Japanese invasion but they may well have have done some decent damage provided they didn't get sunk by aircraft like Repulse and PoW
I actually think these things would have been counterproductive for their own side in the same way as pretty much every other WWII-era big-gun ship (on both the Axis and Allied forces): unless they ran into an enemy big-gun capital ship at night, they wouldn’t ever be able to justify themselves, since everything else would be things other stuff could get done more efficiently, especially given the serious fuel supply issues ABDA had to deal with. And that’s if they don’t get sunk by carriers or land-based aircraft.
Yes, having these around at Java Sea sounds awesome-until you realize that a) having more heavy cruisers would be a lot more efficient for dealing with the Japanese force there, and b) the Japanese could just bring in the Kido Butai or pull another Force Z when they see one of these things, and attack them (and the rest of the ABDA force) with absolute impunity, which would be even worse than what historically went down.
At best, ABDA runs out of fuel faster due to these ships and they only manage to get some Japanese cruisers (that could have been taken out by other cruisers for less fuel or money). At worst, they end up causing the ABDA Squadron to face mass air attacks and lose even worse than they historically did.
The Dutch honestly got lucky they were unable to build these things. Their British, French and American allies, as well as their enemies, sabotaged their own war effort by building such ships. The world already saw 31 obsolete-on-launch capital ships in WWII, it doesn’t need any more.
The biggest effect would be if they made the Japanese decide they needed the kido butai in the south instead of being available for Pearl Harbor.
@@Wick9876 they didn't for Force Z.
Nguyen Johnathan
They may still send swarms of aircraft as the Kantai Kessen doctrine called for air attacks (to kill off any potential enemy carriers before they could do the same against the Japanese battleline). Why the hell they didn’t extend this to the enemy capital ship is beyond me, since they clearly recognized that carriers > battleships and took that into account.
I was playing HOI4 yesterday as the dutch... England attacked me and wiped my navy out of existence. I rebuilt it using 1940's light cruisers, destroyers and a single battlecruiser - pretty much the 1047 :D
Don't forget that you need to change armor scheme from Battleship Armor I to BC Armor I or II since for whatever reason Paradox stuck the wrong model in the base design you receive from the focus unless you designed it on your own.
Fun fact though, you can build a quite devastating navy able to present a decent threat even to the Allies by 42-43 by just getting enough dockyards online and the foci that reduce production cost of naval units
In b4 we'll get this in WOWS now
Waiting for my atago/takao to be mentioned in da future
Drachinifel posted 2 videos of Her NL Majesty's Class 1047 12 hours ago.
At this point, one of the 2 (the one with this comment) has 25k views, while the other has 8.5k. Further, this video has received ~3k thumbs-ups.
Clearly this Drach dude has tapped the very wellspring of Dutch Naval fandom on TH-cam.
Now I'll go back to watching the video in my kombuis.
A good paper ship for WOWS. Of course since, it's not Russian so who knows how long before we see it and how much it be nerfed.
here i am at 03:45 looking at the thumbnai and going like "Thats a Scharnhorst... No! thats not a scharnhorst... is it a scharnhorst? .... that looks like a tripple 28cm... but it got two funnels..." confused sleep dprived thinking noises
Hunting for the new drac vid like the royal navy sniffing out the kreigsmarine in the North Atlantic
Thank you lord Drachinifel
One of my favorite “neverweres” of all time Would have been quite interesting as a match for Dunkerques or to the fictional Chichibu Could we get a video on that one? I bet it would be fun to watch!
I realize I have hindsight, but an aircraft carrier or two would seem to me a much better option than a battlecruiser or two. First, you could operate carrier aircraft from land or sea, so you could increase your capabilities in small increments with additional aircraft rather than an entire new ship. In addition, given that you would likely be outnumbered in any encounter, an aircraft strike would be more likely to inflict proportional damage, and hopefully allow the capital ship to get away, while a battlecruiser would have to come within firing range of the enemy, and then try to escape after suffering battle damage.
maemorri
This isn’t even necessarily a case of hindsight. The construction of a total of 31 obsolete-on-launch big-gun ships (and many more that never got completed) on both sides of WWII is probably the largest military procurement disaster in history.
@@bkjeong4302 There were a few visionaries who rejected the concept of big gun fleets, but as your comment shows, no navy would commit to a different concept. You would think a small country like the Netherlands would have been especially likely to go all-in on an asymmetric, approach. If not aircraft, perhaps U-boats. Which would be a bigger threat to a battle fleet and landing craft? One or two battle cruisers or two wolf packs of U-boats operating under air superiority provided by land-based aircraft?
It takes a massive effort to build a naval aviation force. Not only must you develop the infrastructure to build a carrier you need to have an aircraft industry to develop aircraft. You also have to build escorts.
@@johnshepherd8687 No you don't. You can import aircraft or build them under contract from friendly allied powers. The Dutch weren't designing or building their own big ships. Why would they design their own aircraft?
@@maemorri When I wrote this I was unaware of Ed Nash's channel. The Dutch had an aircraft industry.
I had no idea there were two versions of this and was really confused thinking this week was only in Dutch
Ever notice how the US defense establishment wants all of it's bright ideas built *and* it wants to build it's own version of every shiny thing it sees any other country build? The French and Germans build, and the Dutch consider, undersized, undergunned, battlecruisers, and the US gives birth to the Alaskas. All the resources that went into them, laid down weeks after the Pacific battle line was sunk by carrier aircraft, less than three years in commission, and off to the breakers.
Steve Valley
You could also say that about the Iowas, great battleships that were launched after battleships were obsolete; should have been cancelled before they ever entered service.
Yes, BK and Gues, they were intended as cruiser killers, just like the WWI Brit battle cruisers. They are bigger and more expensive than a CA, but, at some point, they are probably going to find themselves in a situation where they are up against real battleships, running is not an option, and they are going to get pounded, just like a CA, in spite of their extra cost to build and run. Scharnhorst did OK, until it ran into the Duke of York. Imagine what would have happened to the Lexingtons if they had been built as Battle Cruisers, and got stuck into the Solomons campaign.
@@stevevalley7835 it would have been very unlikely that an Alaska would have run into a battleship force. Unlike the Germans, the US Navy had plenty of Battleships. They would never had reason to send an Alaska to do a battleship's mission.
@@johnshepherd8687 Yes, the USN had plenty of BBs by the time the Alaskas entered service. In fact, if the IJN had sent out a cruiser swarm, like the Alaskas were supposed to intercept, the cruiser swarm would probably run into BBs instead. I think the Brits, USN and Italians were 100% correct in building nothing but treatymax BBs in the 30s. I suspect it was only a small group in the USN that saw the shiny things the French, Germans and Dutch had/planned, and decided that the USN "had to have it too", and, when the war engulfed every part of the world except the Americas, they were able to get funding for their pet project. Sanity was restored with the end of the war, and the Alaskas were shoved straight into mothballs, and stayed there until they went to the breakers, while the Iowas were reactivated for Korea, and stayed in service well into the 50s, then mothballed again, and reactivated again in the 80s.
@@stevevalley7835 Well, I'd say that given the industrial capacity of the USA, it certainly didn't hurt to build them. They were basically heavy cruisers with harder hitting guns. If it ever came to cruiser battle at night, which is not unrealistic at all given the number of cruisers built for the IJN, they would probably have been very useful.
No one tell the Dutch navy that timing is everything.
This is actually a twofer; these things were planned just when big guns were rendered obsolete.
It went beyond the Dutch navy. The Dutch didn't want to spend money on the military in general, believing that they would be able to stay neutral like they had in WW1. By the time they finally decided to upgrade the military and allocated some funds for it, they ran into a bit of an issue: A lack of Dutch factories that made such things and foreign ones all booked with orders by other countries who were a little more on the ball. So the Dutch had a lot of antiquated gear in their armed forces.
But the Dutch did put up a good fight with what they had. They had taken careful notes on how the Germans used airborne assaults in Norway and made plans to counter it. And so the German airborne assaults did not accomplish much. Furthermore, they inflicted heavy losses on the German transport planes, a loss the Germans really couldn't afford. The Dutch defense overall cost the Germans more and took longer than they wanted, and so the swap to the terror bombing of civilians.
And as a final raised middle finger before resistance on the mainland ceased, they took a bunch of German PoWs, stuck them on a merchant ship, and sent them to Britain.
I watched the Dutch one first! Used the auto translate subtitles, which do get confused sometimes, but you get the gist. But then I realised this was a repeat in English, and that cleared upsome of the mysteries - the Greek reference and jaro boilers! But the Dutch version is 11 minutes long - this is only 7 and a half! Where's the missing 3 and a half minutes? Nearly a third less!!!
the dutch version goes at a slightly less break-neck pace.
Still hoping this ship makes it to World of Warships some day, either as part of a Dutch tech tree or a stand-alone. Drach, how similar would you rate it compared to Dunkerque, Alaska or the various Soviet battlecruiser/large cruiser designs? Correct meif I'm wrong but didn't they ask the French first but got a big fat NON when asked to have a look at the Dunkerques, hence turning to Germany?
Hurrah for Saturday!
33ktons for an 11" armed BC - perhaps just asking the UK if they could build another KGV and call it Queen Wilhemina
Are the Dutch trying to build a ship in 2020? Seems to be a bad omen when they do.
The dutch navy is shopping around for new frigates. Take that as you wish
Interesstigly a Dutch Shipyard won a contract for the German Navy.
A Dutch company will build 4 MKS 180 Frigates for Germany in the next years.
Thanks for video!)
I want this ship included in a WoWS paneuropean Battleship tech tree!
I also want the Viribus Unitis either downrated to Tier IV or getting all the 7,6cm guns the ship actually has available for AA defense.
OK, I know this will be controversial. They were not battlecruisers. Now what is the definition of a battlecruiser? A vessel armed with capital ship weapons, but sacrificing armor (not being able to resist the guns it carried) for speed. Eleven/Twelve inch guns had been obsolete for capital ship armament since the British introduced the 15 inch and everyone else tagged along with 15 or 16 inch guns. A lot of the dreadnoughts scrapped under the Treaties would have been scrapped anyway as their 12 inch batteries were obsolete. The only reason USS Arkansas was still around was to give the US its full number of ships allowed under the Treaties. So what were the Alaska, Dunkerque, Deutschland and 1047 classes? Dreadnought armored cruisers or as the US Navy called them, Large Cruisers (CB). An armored cruiser had mounted weapons of a lesser caliber than battleship guns (9.2 inch in the RN. 8/10 inch in the USN versus 12 inch in their pre-dreadnoughts) and did not sacrifice armor for speed, being armored to resist guns of the size they mounted. And that is exactly the characteristics of these ships. What about the Scharnhorsts? They are difficult to classify. They did not carry capital ship weapons, but were armored against them - sort of "anti-battlecruisers" - because it was always planned to replace their triple 11 gun turrets with dual 15 inch to make them fast battleships. I guess, I'd throw them into the Large Cruiser category. The reason they were called "battlecruisers" is because the RN couldn't figure out how to rate them. Thus endeth the lesson.
It's funny to plan so well for a ship you need immediately. Paralysis by analysis.
They didn’t need this thing, they needed a carrier if they wanted a capital ship for WWII. But that would also have been an impossibility for the Dutch since they’d have to develop the whole doctrine.
WG, Pls take notes.
Also, when PanEU cruiser will be released?
Shame it was never built as they looked really slick
Wouldn't mind seeing this design appear in the Pan-European tech tree in World of Warships
GRACIAS POR EL VIDEO !!!!!! PODRIAS HACER UNO SOBRE EL MONITOR HUASCAR ???
What about the Norwegian or danish coastal defence ships that would be a great video
I believe some of them are on the list.
Nitpick: The Japanese didn't actually need to take the Philippines to seize the Dutch East Indies. They had the forces and logistics to attack the Dutch East Indies without it and the Philippines had no bases or infrastructure to support a major fleet there, plus it was close to Japan and could be easily cut off from reinforcement. The US Navy had recognized these problems from its own wargames and rightly concluded that rushing their fleet west to defend the Philippines would be suicidal without first building up their forces and logistics for a few years. By 1941 the USN planned to abandon the Far East in any war with Japan, then return later with overwhelming force and grind Japan to dust.
So there wasn't actually a pressing need for Japan to seize the Philippines and Dutch beliefs that the USA was guaranteed to intervene if Japan attacked them (much less that they'd rush their fleet over to save the East Indies) were just wishful thinking.
In fact, during Japanese planning for the actual attack on the Dutch East Indies, Admiral Nagano argued against striking the Philippines or any other American possessions, forcing the USA to declare war on Japan without a compelling casus belli (because Americans had little love for Dutch colonialism regardless of their president's words) and leaving open the possibility for a negotiated peace. He relented when Yamamoto threatened to resign if Nagano didn't go along with his plan for a surprise attack on the US fleet at Pearl Harbor, which ensured a fight to the finish with the USA that Japan couldn't win. (Sources: Parshall and Tully's "Shattered Sword", Miller's "War Plan Orange")
The point I was making was not so much about taking the DEI directly or not but vulnerability, leaving the Phillipines unoccupied basically puts a knife at the throat of your newly acquired supply lines.
Drachinifel - Not if the USA is neutral - We weren’t going to war without the attacks on Pearl Harbor, the Philippines, Guam & Wake Island, & the Japanese always had the option of acceding to American demands in China & just biding their time. At which point, we’d have had no reason to attack or otherwise hinder Japanese shipping in the region.
Coming to World of Warships in the future...
Interesting ship design. How did they compare with the USN's Alaska Class? Better armor scheme?
Marginally worse main armament, much worse secondary battery, 2Kts faster, an inch heavier belt, all for about 10k tons extra displacement.
@drachinifel can you review the USS Alabama (BB 60)?
Why can I see this being a tier 7-9 premium for warships? Probably a dock yard build or free xp ship.
The version of this video in Dutch is 3½ minutes longer. The sailor would fall asleep before het kapteyn has finished his orders.
Make them missile carriers and stuff them full. 1,000+ air sea and land.
The time to buy capital ships would have been when the great powers had just finished a war. Yards are free and people are looking to unload excess ships.
I remember a lot of comments in the Dutch version of this video about how foolish such a plan was. In the light of what happened it doesn't seem that useful to develop 3 such Battle Cruisers but - if you think about it in other terms (not dependent on 20/20 foresight) it makes more sense.
IF you look at is as The European Colonial Powers Against the Japanese - Holland contributing 3 capital ships to safeguard their Colonies - in conjunction with ships from France, Great Britain and the USA - it makes a lot more sense.
The Dutch just don't seem to be taking into consideration the possibility that the people they were about to buy all those parts from would invade and occupy their country.
Now - one thing about Holland here - is that the Dutch sat out WWI as a Neutral Power - so - they might be forgiven for thinking that in the event of another war - they could sit that one out too. They also might be forgiven for not realizing that not only themselves but Belgium, France, Norway and Denmark would also be invaded and occupied. Additionally they also didn't anticipate that the US Pacific Fleet would have a good bit of it's tonnage sunk at anchor at Pearl Harbor. And finally - they - like a number of other nations - failed to anticipate the full degree to which aircraft would supplant surface ships as the prime determiners of Naval Combat.
But - looking on the bright side - at least they hadn't given all that money to the Germans before all this happened.
.
"Additionally they also didn't anticipate that the US Pacific Fleet would have a good bit of it's tonnage sunk at anchor at Pearl Harbor."
@@maozedong44 If they really saw the future they would have seen that big guns were obsolete with or without AA, simply because there is no gun that has the same striking range as a carrier.
@@bkjeong4302 And no carrier aircraft could operate at night or bad weather until well into WW2.
@@colbeausabre8842
Which would result in a stalemate since there’s still the matter of finding and catching up to the carrier from a few hundred miles away; it still wouldn’t allow big guns the upper hand.
@@bkjeong4302 Sorry, but what happens if they come after you instead of running away? Scharnhorst and Gneisnau didn't fun from Glorious.
So if these are properly called battlecruisers, does that affect your argument against calling the Alaskas battlecruisers in any way?
They had a different role. They were cruiser killers ntended to operate with other cruisers.
whot name of ship in 7.15 ?
How nice of the Germans to bring samples 😁.
The video appeared to be at 1.25 speed. But it wasn´t.
I was in a discussion in the World of Warships forum about capital ships for the EU tech tree then Drach uploaded this video.
What timing.
PS. I would call ships like this, Alaska, Kronstadt and B-65 class "super cruisers" though, because I use the RN WW1 battlecruisers as the frame of reference. And these classes don't match, their guns aren't as big as contemporary BBs.
Not because the game puts them as "cruisers", I've called them "super cruisers" for a long time before Kronstadt was added.
Why do people keep denigrating 12-in guns? The Scharnhorst class and the USS Wyoming (both active in WWII) had less powerful guns than the Alaskas, and they were considered battleships. For that matter, the guns on the Conte di Cavour class threw a shell almost exactly the same weight as the Alaskas.
That's a shame considering what a fine looking ship she was to be; almost artful.
Yeah, the Dutch were quite naive and too late in gearing up for war.
Sure, there was the economic crisis of 1929-1933, to which the Dutch government responded poorly, and thus lasted much longer.
But the whole Dutch military was woefully outdated, and especially lacked good intelligence.
It did fight bravely when the shooting started, and some units distinguished themselves, often with poor material, but they were no match for the Germans or Japanese.
RogerWilco - I’m reading a book, U-BOAT ASSAULT ON AMERICA, that’s been recommended by Drach. One point the author makes is that FDR used NIRA & WPA funds to fund ship construction & naval infrastructure from 1933 to 1939. I suspect the Dutch could have used “economic stimulus” & “jobs” as justifications for naval construction & force modernization...
Who would win
The entire IJN or Senator Tillman and some boats that are named after him
Depends which side Ugg the log joins.....
The Tillman Battle ships while they would have been monsters even by Yamato standards would not have lasted long against the IJN Carriers.
It's a strange part of history that the Dreadnought and everything it would bring was made obsolete by the airplane that flew years before it was ever even conceived.
German Destroyers WWII ?
Considering that they were talking about Holdings over in the Pacific I'm surprised it didn't get the United States to build at least with one of them there on the West Coast.
Get it in WoWs
Would an Iowa class battleship be considered a super battle cruiser since they were so fast compared to other battleships???
Not really, because they have a lot more armour.
@@bkjeong4302 one could argue that the Iowa was something of a battleship/battlecruiser hybrid, because it had the speed to run down enemy cruisers, which is exactly the task a battlecruiser is designed for. 33 knots is ridiculously fast for a battleship.
@@michaelkovacic2608 The speed of the Iowas was actually for running down enemy capital ships expected to be too fast for the other American fast battleships or the Standards, acting as a fast wing of the battleline. Of course, this design purpose became obsolete before the Iowas ever entered service.
Considering what happened at the Battle of the Java Sea, the dutch should probably have irdered some desent admirals to command 'em.
This would be possible [if dutch already have it ] japan didnt bomb pearl harbour and france
German-designed engines...compact but hard to maintain. Some things never change...like my past Audis and BMWs. 💸💸💸
2:40 Netherlands, battlecruiser proposal, 3x3 11"...
I think pls make it European T9 for 1 mil FreeXP
...i play too much wows -.-
I hope the Dutch tax payers weren't stuck with a bill for the German designs.
hows it going?
Wait till War Gaming gets wind of this...
Oh, we've been telling them about it for years! I would love to see the 1047s in at tier 7.
They'll just nerf it out of recognition.....
Where the pinned post huh
And still I think this whole idea was fundamentally flawed and downright stupid...
The Royal Dutch Navy was in terms of theoretical schools pretty much the Germans 2.0, with the same flaws. So you got three different doctrines to pick from:
-Risk theory where you assume your fleet will cause enough damage when it gets destroyed so that a third power can then intervene and kill your attacker off. It absolutely did not work during WW1 and the force ratio's between the Dutch and Japanese where far worse than the British and Germans. Also aircraft are a thing now, and it was known by 1938.
-Commerce raiding with surface ships. It has some merits to it, especially if you do it with proper battlecruisers that outclass any cruiser and can actually run away from battleships. But the problem is again aircraft. In the Dutch context, commerce raiding is more aimed towards finding the inevitable Japanese invasion convoy. Now this convoy was expected to be covered at most with heavy cruisers, thus battlecruisers. Now we know that the IJN barely used the Fuso's and Ise's during WW2, but I would see them being used after Pearl Harbor if somehow the Dutch navy had three battlecruisers present. That would have ended great. The battlecruisers where also intended as commerce raiders to be deployed in the South China sea. They probably could do a lot more damage in that role, but at what cost? They where very big and expensive ships that will trigger a response. Again after Pearl Harbor they would not be able to carry out their mission. They will just end up as more capital ship kills for Japanese land or carrier based squadrons.
-Commerce raiding with submarines. Now this is where it got interesting seeing as the Royal Dutch Navy was years ahead of the Germans in terms of submarine tactics. They where actively planning to engage heavily defended convoys while taking into account especially aerial attacks on submarines, aside from the usual destroyer threat. They developed everything from the snuiver to remain submerged during the day, radio communication between the submarines to coordinate an attack from a large wolf pack, could talk directly to reconnaissance planes, the newer boats had the Germans passive GHG sonar systems, and the crews where trained to make hours long approaches underwater with nothing but sonar guidance, pop up briefly to periscope depth for targeting and dive again to fire under passive sonar. We are talking within 1000 meters to make the torpedo's count. This is late WW2 German level tactics, made doctrine by 1934. The Royal Dutch Navy was planning to engage at close range against RN levels of ASW, but their targets would be the the IJN.
Furstner who was chief of the naval staff from 1936 onwards, honestly was an idiot. The Dutch Erich Raeder in terms of authoritarian command, far right political views, removing rivals, arrogant, not caring about his subordinates or visiting crews during WW2 while having an expensive mansion rented just outside of London with sailors at waiters, all paid for by the Dutch government in exile. But the worst would be failing to put a well thought naval strategy in place that could actually work. That was his job...
The Germans did not build up a submarine force until it was arguably to late. The Dutch Navy had a really well trained and advanced submarine force and then Furstner wanted to reverse that, because battlecruisers where the way. This had to be accomplished with few resources to build these and the rest of the desired surface fleet. Just crewing the proposed battlecruisers might already have been a serious issue on itself. Dutch rearmament started in 1936, but instead of doubling down on what you spent years developing, something with a lot of promise and in highside the correct decision, instead years get waisted on remodelling the fleet from submarine centric to surface centric with new designs and doctrine based on concepts that already had been proven flawed during WW1, and by the time this fleet finally starts being build, a bunch of Germans show up uninvited...
Quite a few more O-19 and O-21 class boats could have been build before may 1940 if resources had been directed that way. Dutch shipbuilding of the time seems to be quite slow which makes me suspect the yards where working with smaller workforces. Employment was still a big problem in the Netherlands around that time and many government work projects where under way. Diverting some of those funds to the shipyards would have been possible and sensible. Their where simply no technical, strategic, diplomatic or doctrinal barriers for the Dutch Royal Navy to go all out on submarines.
Yes, even though I do kinda like the idea of battlecruisers because "big and shiny", I just can't justify them because the whole thinking behind these was so utterly flawed when placed in the context of the period. That the admiral behind these ships was comfortable living in a mansion during WW2 and didn't even have the decency to go talk to the crews who where risking their lives every time they sailed out, doesn't help.
It’s actually even stupider than you have stated, because by this point the entire concept behind any big-gun capital ship was obsolete.
Do you reckon that the Dutch wolfpack tactics would have made a difference if there had been more O19/O21 type boats?
@@bkjeong4302 Now that is one step to far for me. They where not obsolete because that would imply that they don't poses any significant combat value. Plenty of battleship engagements during WW2 that prove otherwise. Instead I would argue they where obsolescent. They have a place in a balanced fleet of a great naval power. It just isn't as THE main fighting force. Defiantly a powerful combat unit in a balanced task force, but no longer line all the battleships up and start shooting at each other.
It also differs from theatre to theatre. In the central pacific, yea they are glorified carrier escorts to deter night-time attack by cruisers. The weather is such that you can carry out flight operations, or are desperately not trying to capsize in a typhoon with very little in between those two extremes. Around Guadalcanal they where game changers when they got unleashed.
In Europe they also where a lot more useful. The Mediterranean theatre was very complex and showed that battleships still had a role to play in balanced task forces. Now the North Atlantic might be the theatre where they still had some value as they most powerful ships. The North Atlantic tends to be a very rough operating area that would often make flight operations impossible. Another problem in both European theatres would be land based aircraft that can easily overwhelm any carrier force in numbers, payload and often also in sheer quality of planes. That also diminished the carrier in the European theatre. They are useful, but they can't stand up against a concentrated effort from bases on land.
The problem for the Dutch is that a large balanced fleet is unaffordable. To make these battlecruisers efficient, you probably need a few fleet carriers alongside a few dozen destroyers and another few cruisers on top of the Ruyter and the planned two 10,000t cruisers. That isn't happening.
DaniëlWW2
But big-gun units existed to BE the primary force. Once they could no longer serve as such, there was no reason for them to exist. Not when subcapital units can fill those other roles far more efficiently.
A balanced fleet in WWII had no need for battleships, even in the Atlantic or Mediterranean theatre. Yes they were used in those places but that doesn’t mean they were the best tools for the jobs they actually did. There is literally only one engagement in the European theatre of WWII where battleships were actually justified (North Cape).....and even that was sparked by the Germans trying to use a battleship for something battleships are terrible at (commerce raiding).
Gues Who - If these 3 had been part of ABDA, the Japanese would’ve sent the Kido Butai & 2-4 BB’s to any engagements against the ABDA fleet. The Japanese might even defer attacking the USA & agree to accede to most of the American demands on China. If so, the Dutch & British would have been facing the Japanese on their own at the end of some very long supply lines.
What if the United States stayed neutral until 1943 and pearl harbor had never happened
The Japanese had 2 options attack Russia or the US for raw materials
They choose the US.
I think the UK would have signed an armistice and Russia would be attacked from 2 sides.
Without US meddling around Shino -Japanese conflict (which at the end lead to Tojo's facist rise to power and overall war with USA) it's very possible that Japan would REMAIN neutral in the war (especially taking under consideration the fact that because of the Ribbentrop - Molotov Pact Tokyo declared Anticommintern Pact dead and that they are no longer bound by its rules to help Hitler in his attack on soviets) and it would very complicated Soviet strategic situation, because without Siberian army overall Soviet strategic reserves at the end of the 1941 reached critical breakpoint and risk of the Moscow fall to the Germany's hands grown practically every week the fight continued.
Let's not forget that Stalin's paranoia doesn't help the situation either and despite reciving many intels from the Soviet spys that Japan will abbide the non aggresion treaty he might be too "cautious" fearing deception to give order to bring Siberian Army to Moscow...
US on the other hand was a completely different political mess... because without event like Pearl Harbor pro german isolationists in the Congres would NEVER allow dragging USA in to another war... especially against Hitler... which would put Great Britain in very difficult position of the tactical and strategical stalemate.
Heck... Historicaly, without Hitler's idiotic move to declare war to USA (about which by the way no one... including Tokyo... ask him to do) US commitment to the war would be limited to Pacific Theater with slim to none involvement in European front by sending war supplies to England... but nothing more.
Even in his December 8th speech in Congres Roosevelt asked for declaration of war ONLY against Japan... but not Germany as well... because Roosevelt knew that such move would be struck by pro german opposition... lead by no one else than Kennedy senior himself (and what latter on haunted Kennedy family for years being called a nazi supporters).
To conclude... without Pearl Harbor WW II would take very different and a lot complicated political and military route with a great chances of dragging the whole conflict way beyond 1945 (perhaps close to what was presented in the book "Fatherland")... 🤔
Wasn't going to happen. As soon as Roosevelt won reelection in 1940 he started trying to get into the war in the Atlantic with Germany. A US destroyer dropped depth charges on a u-boat, claiming self-defense, in APRIL. The Reuben James was sunk by a u-boat in October. A few more dead US sailors in the Atlantic and Roosevelt would have had his causus bellum. The comment below jabbering about German lobbyists in America is confusing the situation with WW1.
Roosevelt would have gotten us in somehow
Demon Princes And yet you won and become the superpower of this world. So why complain now?
F
It’s actually a blessing in disguise for the Dutch they never got to build these things. Just take a look at how badly the British, French, Germans, Japanese, Americans, and Italians hurt themselves building obsolete-on-launch big-gun ships at around this time.
But we only kniw that through hindsight.
Luke Dogwalker
By the late 1930s carrier supremacy was no longer a thing of the future.
@@bkjeong4302 But curiously no navy in the late 30 think this way. All of them were building BB, and no one look at the carriers as more of an usefull auxiliary unit. And it´s not til the sinking of PoW and R that the airpower have any success in sinking a BB or a BC in open waters.
So in late 30´s the carriers supremacy was still a thing of the future. A future that it´a just arround the corner, but still future.
Salvador Sempere
Carrier supremacy was present by the late 30s, since by then naval aviation had gotten to the point it had rendered big guns superfluous. People just failed to realize this due to lack of case studies.
There is a massive difference between people assuming a weapon is relevant, and it actually being relevant. The fact everyone thought of battleships as the best capital ships in the late 1930s doesn’t actually mean they were.
@@bkjeong4302 That is not true all. Carrier aviation was not capable of dealing with surface fleets until the universal introduction of momoplane aircraft. The only biplanes that that had a to take out a major combatant were torpedo bombers and unescorted torpedo bombers are very vulnerable to enemy fighters.
Typical Dutch warship. An excellent design, and then it doesn't get built
Pin it!
SECOND COMMENT