A quick thought which might help:. You swapped the two controller phases and saw the same rotation. That makes sense. As far as i can see, what needs changing is the _low level phase signal which drives those boards,_ not the boards themselves. If those signals are on three pins of an IC, or on three IC's, then the two relevant wires or tracks going to the boards need swapping over, maybe even by cutting the powered down tracks and adding small jumper leads. If it's done through circuitry which is potted, or on a multi-layer PCB with several tracks inside the board, then that modification might be much harder to make. If you have the documentation, then have a good look at the circuitry to try to find the correct wires or PCB tracks. You will need to use a logic probe, or oscilloscope, to find those input connectors, if no documentation is available to you. With luck, the board might even be marked clearly, albeit in small letters, and that could save you a lot of time. Unless you know someone who can reprogram the microprocessor or PIC's? Do let us know which approach is relevant to you. Thanks. 🙂👍
I refrained from objecting the positioning of the rear motor in your previous video, because I didn't want to contradict the "professor". So, I am glad you came around, or indeed upside down! :-P
I’m so glad you said that. It was driving me nuts wondering why you could not just rotate the motor around it’s axle at the back. I screaming it at the tv 🤣
This type of conversion is a conversation starter! People are going to be talking about it for a long time. We've entered a TWILIGHT ZONE______Thx for bringing us there!
My God, Richard is building a massive beast? That project will be mental from 0 to 100. You better be getting some heavy batteries on it for stability and sanity sake. :)
EEC, there is liquid cooling of the motor, and it is likely designed with a certain drain path. So I suggest reviewing the motor cooling path for any trouble spots. It might be fine, but take a look at channels that disassembled motor for how cooling runs through. Or might end up blowing out some seals or something unexpected. (Gruber, Monroe, RichRebuild, others I forget) Special note: some channels have shown failed gaskets/seals that have leaked coolant into controller area and such.
Yep, we've taken a good look at the coolant paths, it'll be fine with the motor flipped. I doubt very much that coolant leaks into the inverter area will be anything to do with failed seals, it'll be because the inverters weren't torqued to the gear casting correctly or the seals weren't mounted correctly or the surfaces weren't cleaned correctly. We've put dozens of these motors together and these points are critical to ensure good sealing between the inverted and motor. It's also critical to ensure the coolant pressure doesn't exceed factory settings. 👍
Hey Richard... Its only a few episodes I"ve watched since I subscribed but each of those videos are filled with good info which makes me more excited with my future EV project. Thank you
Looking good, Moggie. I love how this is progressing. Can't wait to see you stick the boot into this thing for the first time and smoke up all four wheels 😁
@@ElectricClassicCars 12:00 🤔 My fear is on the flipped-over drive unit: The (small) teeth on the intermediate shaft (towards the motor) are now running throught the oil sump, wich they don't do in the original position. The oil could be beaten to foam or cream on high rpm and the gears plus bearings overheat and get wrecked.
If you swapped the inverters and the gate controller connections, you swapped them twice, so they were back to the way they started. May be tricky just swapping gate control, as there is probably also phase current-sensing and maybe other monitoring that would also need to be swapped.
Tried swapping just the inverter phases, just the gate controller wiring, gate controller wiring and inverter phases, then same again but also swapping the current sensor wiring. My thinking is it's something to do with the dual motor software as that should have worked ( in theory). Thanks for your input. 👍
There are only two current sensors, iirc. The third one is done by math. Because of that, I think you have to do a firmware mod in addition to: swapping phase current sensors, gate phases and fiddle with the reluctor direction.
@@vidznstuff1 Yes, the 2 outer phases have current sensors the middle phase as you say must be done by calculation. Maybe swapping the 2 outer current sensor wires, the 2 outer phase gate controller wiring and the encoder wiring is messing the calculations for the 3rd middle phase somehow. I think you might be onto something there. 👍
Yes, at first thought it would need an idler, but that applies to a gear set like the motor drive set (motor turns opposite way to wheels). If you have a look at (or visualise) a bevel set, both shafts turn in the same direction.
Well done! Proper engineering there!! Curious about you seating position, which was a bit of an issue, last time around, in conjunction with the front motor. But I guess that will be part of you next vid, as you need to resolve that before you can fit the bodywork...
Does the drivetrain oil pump normally sit with oil in? Will it suck oil from startup when mounted at the top? Maybe a mini dry sump kit from a motorbike might be worth considering. Or oil pressure monitor at the least
Another great show, I try to watch them all. Just a little off-topic question, do you ever receive donor cars whole and if you do, do you use the big screen or anything else in your builds or just the drivetrain?
You need to swap the gate drive signals from the logic board to two of the power modules. Just swapping the modules is like swapping two identical carburettors on a twin carb engine.
@@ElectricClassicCars I'm not that familiar with the LTDU, but is the phase current sensor wiring seperate, or combined with the gate drive loom? If it's seperate, then you would have to swap the both the gate and phase current wiring between two power stages.
I thought Tesla motors were more drum like with a similar shaped inverter housing on the other side of the gearbox/diff, like the rear motor, so why is the front motor so different?
Hi. Why do all the cars use a 12 V battery. I understand it’s a normal car voltage . As well as the battery pack for the motors. Why not is a transformer to bring the voltage down. One large common battery pack.
Hello! I am considering flipping a Small Tesla drive unit upside down for a Porsche 996 conversion so that I can get the motor in front of the rear axle line similar to this build. Do you see any reason why this would not work? I'm guessing I just need to add an oil pickup line to reach the bottom like you are planning. Thank you for sharing your work!
Thanks for sharing your work and congrats for the test working! I was wondering how the braking and regen system will work in terms of when the disc brakes kick in? Do the disk brakes kick in at certain pressures from the pedal/driver?
realy nice project. Do you know it is possible LDU from model 3 to flip oposite like this S model ? ? Model 3 has heat exchanger with oil and coolant , and it has oilpump ... will oilpump work propertly?? tnx . Hope you see question.
This is coming together quite nicely! I've got a question. Do you need to sync the two motors to spin at the same linear speed for the front and rear tires to rotate equally? Or do the motor's logic compensate for that? Cheers!
I ve asked that the last time. it seems the rear motor is the master and the front one the slave. I guess the front control unit receives just the torque setpoint sent from the rear one
@@davidef4162 My ebike has regen so if I set the speed low and go down hill it will slow me down. Would the same happen on the front motor as it was spinning much slower then the rear.
@@alibro7512 I guess that, while pushing the throttle, the negative torque limit is set to zero (the regen torque limit), thus preventing the motor to act as a generator. Anyway, I'm not an expert...
Lighter is better. For pikes peak challenge, is it necessary to have two motors (front and back)? I would just have one. You win race in the corners and with 0-60 acceleration. Yes, 4 wheels has greater traction. Calculate the acceleration speed difference between single vs dual and weight difference. I personally think single motors is best. The more join you add to the steering the more play. Remive the front motor and less play. I do think you should sit low to the ground. Question. Because you are smart, could you replace the shell of the motors from metal to carbon fiber? Less is best. Might not change too much weight but every little bit helps. I strongly wish you could make that chassis out of carbon fiber. Everything you could do, replace, lighter is better, carbon fiber Everything.
A great conversions. How much for this vehicle all done with windows and hard top . I live in Spain do you know if it can be registered in Spain as it's been modified.
There’s a very good chance that the phase drivers you tried moving don’t have any smarts to them that say which phase they are but the actual cabling going to them dictates what the main controller believes is the phase order. So the board’s physical location doesn’t matter but the cables going to them do. With that said I’d be more keen to flip the motor and sort the oiling and cooling system rather that spin everything backwards. Reason why is those helical gears in those gearboxes create axial loads into the support bearings based on which way they’re designed to spin. If you flip the direction of rotation the axial loads are also flipped. When engineers spec the bearings the dominant load is what they’re going for so you may find that the one that’s on the side that sees the higher axial loads is usually bigger.
We swapped the control wiring too but didn't work for some reason. In the Mercedes B class the Tesla motor spins in reverse so the axial loads on the bearings should be fine.
@@ElectricClassicCars Right on. I wonder what type of encoder it has on it. In some motor controllers they'll re-order the phases based on the encoder during an initial calibration. During the calibration the motor controller energizes the motor phases in an order and checks the encoder to see if it's in the right order. This is a little different than how the VESC works where it updates the hall table to match whatever the phase order is. Silly question but you did swap the encoder order at the same time you swapped the phases yeah?
How often does the oil and filter in the backmotor have to be changed ? My model S has 260.000Km on the odometer and i wonder if it is necessary to do it now. Have you any advice ? Thx in advance. Greetings, XaRaI. BTW your channel is a real gem, i love it ! :-)
For the film "The Dark Knight" they had a similar problem with the "Bat Pod" (the bike he used in the film). It had a motor in each wheel that needed to be alined to achieve movement. I believe they go through the solution on the bonus disk of the dvd - I don't have the dvd anymore, let alone dvd player, but might be worth doing a dive on. As for your phase switching on the tesla motor and it not working: The only thing I can think of is that each unit in the motor is assigned a unique ID (similar to a mac address for network enabled devices). I would imagine, on the factory floor, the units are given a firmware flash as the full drive is assembled. The reason for this, is less to do with maintenance but more to do with system control. I wouldn't be surpised if Tesla treats the car like we treat our home devices for connecting bluetooth or to the internet; each device has a unique address, so it knows what it is and where it is.
@@ElectricClassicCars No problem. What I mean with the ID is that it's most likely hard coded by Tesla that unit 1 has ID 12334 that represents phase 1. This can't be dynmaically changed or assigned after leaving the factory. I reckon it'll be down to not wanting anyone putting in any custom hardware or doing their own repairs etc.
There are two current sensors on the motor phase busbars. Try swapping those if possible or atleast the wiring to them. They are probally running some form of Field Oriented Control method thus heavily relying on current measurements per phase. Did you try running it with just the encoder swapped?
Yep, tried both those things. Still didn't want to work. Thanks Tom. I'm going to try it on another motor on the bench, I'm thinking it might have something to do with it having a dual motor software on the main control board so I'll try it with a single motor setup as I really think what we tried should have otherwise worked. 👍
I wondered when you were going to get around to flipping the motor. If you cast your mind back a bit, the FJ cars of the '60s using a Renault gear box, turned them upside down and back to front to give the mid engine position and turn the wheels in the correct direction.
On old VWs the diffs were made to be installed either way up, one way for the cars and the other for the vans with the portal axles, so the drive could be reversed to compensate for the portal gears. If the diff was accidentally installed the wrong way, you'd have a Beetle with one forward gear and four reverses!
not really related to the Buffy build, but are the Model 3/Y Motors constrained when trying to use them in a build like this? Do they need further mods to allow them to be used? Great video btw
The Model 3 motor is a superior motor to the induction motors in a Model S. We use them in a number of builds. Maybe that's a good topic for a future Tech talk, covering the pros and cons of all the different Tesla motors currently available. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars Yes, that'd be great. I saw that Zero EV had a test rig to get the M3 motor to work by modifying the throttle pedal .... but i didn't really understand what they were doing ☺
the controller with the blutooth and ipad app, what brand is this? your own solution for your builds or something we all 'wannabees' can buy for our builds? great work by the way, you have inspired me for a new build -EV Rover P38 ;)
Good approach regarding gearbox issues that occur after flipping it over. Does this gearbox have a breather valve or is it completely closed? Is it necessary to seal it and then reposition it on the opposite side?
I realise that modifying the electronics maybe not be the easiest option, but you could perhaps instead swap over the cables that provide the drives to the IGBT transistors only. Rather than both.
@@ElectricClassicCars I see this as a challenge in so many conversions, I wonder if there’s not an opportunity for someone to produce something effective but budget friendly. Hmmmm
Could it be that what you swapped on the Tesla motor are just the power units of each phase? Do they receive the control signals from a control unit? If yes, so you have to swap the wiring from the control unit and not the power units, which basically are just signals converters with no knowledge of the phase they supply. Just guessing....
@@ElectricClassicCars if the speed and rotor angle are read through a sensor then it might be that the control unit adapts the power unit signals according to the sensor. Then it might be difficult to invert the rotation
Next time, try to build your chassis around the components. This is a good project, but when building new you need to change your approach. Less downtime, less hindering with components, less compromise. However, I am sure you will get to the bottom of it, but let's say, you get 10 orders for Buffy. Like Elon stated: prototyping is easy, production is hard. I just wait to see where the battery packs will sit.
This is a project for me. We're not planning on building or selling any others. You're correct, designing and building a custom chassis would have been best but then again wouldn't have cost £2k 😁👍
@@ElectricClassicCars Totally understandable from this perspective. I was under the impression that you will make more seeing comments that asked for price pointed to your website contact. My bad.
So light of a car, there is no way to get the excessive power to the ground without vast amount of aero downforce. in other words much more Hp then can be used.
12:00 🤔 My fear is on the flipped-over drive unit: The (small) teeth on the intermediate shaft (towards the motor) are now running throught the oil sump, wich they don't do in the original position. The oil could be beaten to foam or cream on high rpm and the gears plus bearings overheat and get wrecked.
I Heard a comment the other day that if EV batteries were left laying around say in a project car whilst being built they degrade, which could be costly for the self builder, have you had any experience of this or is it just petrol head scaremongering
Buffy the ICE Slayer!!!
Every single episode make me drool for my own conversion!!!
A quick thought which might help:. You swapped the two controller phases and saw the same rotation. That makes sense. As far as i can see, what needs changing is the _low level phase signal which drives those boards,_ not the boards themselves.
If those signals are on three pins of an IC, or on three IC's, then the two relevant wires or tracks going to the boards need swapping over, maybe even by cutting the powered down tracks and adding small jumper leads. If it's done through circuitry which is potted, or on a multi-layer PCB with several tracks inside the board, then that modification might be much harder to make. If you have the documentation, then have a good look at the circuitry to try to find the correct wires or PCB tracks.
You will need to use a logic probe, or oscilloscope, to find those input connectors, if no documentation is available to you. With luck, the board might even be marked clearly, albeit in small letters, and that could save you a lot of time.
Unless you know someone who can reprogram the microprocessor or PIC's?
Do let us know which approach is relevant to you. Thanks. 🙂👍
Happy to see you took my suggestion of flipping the rear motor on it's back to heart 😎
That's Ace really enjoying this
This is currently my favorite channel
That’s great to hear. Glad you enjoy it.
Thanks. 😎👍
looking fwd to your progress - cheers!
I see someone , Pablo Picaro . Has already asked and you have answered my Question.
Looking forward to seeing this as the build continues . :-)
Richard you are an electrical wizard, I can not wait to see the end result of this project...😜
I refrained from objecting the positioning of the rear motor in your previous video, because I didn't want to contradict the "professor". So, I am glad you came around, or indeed upside down! :-P
Thanx for sharing, very interesting indeed!
Now I’m more excited for this build
Amazing work, simply amazing!
Great to see Buffy making progress, this will be rapid....then the plaid motor 😈⚡😈
*Buff-E. 😉
The motors are in place and working, that was a big challenge, on to the rest of the build!
admirable project. I will follow closely.
I’m so glad you said that. It was driving me nuts wondering why you could not just rotate the motor around it’s axle at the back. I screaming it at the tv 🤣
This type of conversion is a conversation starter! People are going to be talking about it for a long time. We've entered a TWILIGHT ZONE______Thx for bringing us there!
Controversal, non conventional comment.
@@Stefan_Dahn
Yes!
Call me _C O N T R O V E R S I A L_
_U N C O N V E N T I O N A L_
Does anyone come to mind?
My God, Richard is building a massive beast? That project will be mental from 0 to 100. You better be getting some heavy batteries on it for stability and sanity sake. :)
FANTASTIC!!! I love it when a plan comes together!! Your videos are always very interesting.
of course!!! Now, go and win some races!!
Can't wait to see it finished now.
EEC, there is liquid cooling of the motor, and it is likely designed with a certain drain path. So I suggest reviewing the motor cooling path for any trouble spots. It might be fine, but take a look at channels that disassembled motor for how cooling runs through. Or might end up blowing out some seals or something unexpected. (Gruber, Monroe, RichRebuild, others I forget) Special note: some channels have shown failed gaskets/seals that have leaked coolant into controller area and such.
Yep, we've taken a good look at the coolant paths, it'll be fine with the motor flipped. I doubt very much that coolant leaks into the inverter area will be anything to do with failed seals, it'll be because the inverters weren't torqued to the gear casting correctly or the seals weren't mounted correctly or the surfaces weren't cleaned correctly. We've put dozens of these motors together and these points are critical to ensure good sealing between the inverted and motor. It's also critical to ensure the coolant pressure doesn't exceed factory settings. 👍
Awesome engineering! 👏👏👏👏👏
You have all of the best toys. I’m not jealous at all.🤣🥰❤️
Love the whole concept, and especially your breakdown tech talk🤙🏼🤙🏼🤙🏼🇦🇺
We used to use 70 or 80 degree bevel steering boxes from Citroen C35s, 20 euro from a french scrappers. Not seen anyone use that system for years.
Excellent
Hey Richard...
Its only a few episodes I"ve watched since I subscribed but each of those videos are filled with good info which makes me more excited with my future EV project.
Thank you
Looking good, Moggie. I love how this is progressing.
Can't wait to see you stick the boot into this thing for the first time and smoke up all four wheels 😁
I'll be wearing my big-boy pants that day for sure. 😁👍
@@ElectricClassicCars 12:00 🤔 My fear is on the flipped-over drive unit: The (small) teeth on the intermediate shaft (towards the motor) are now running throught the oil sump, wich they don't do in the original position. The oil could be beaten to foam or cream on high rpm and the gears plus bearings overheat and get wrecked.
Great video mate 👌
If you swapped the inverters and the gate controller connections, you swapped them twice, so they were back to the way they started. May be tricky just swapping gate control, as there is probably also phase current-sensing and maybe other monitoring that would also need to be swapped.
Tried swapping just the inverter phases, just the gate controller wiring, gate controller wiring and inverter phases, then same again but also swapping the current sensor wiring. My thinking is it's something to do with the dual motor software as that should have worked ( in theory). Thanks for your input. 👍
There are only two current sensors, iirc. The third one is done by math. Because of that, I think you have to do a firmware mod in addition to: swapping phase current sensors, gate phases and fiddle with the reluctor direction.
@@vidznstuff1 Yes, the 2 outer phases have current sensors the middle phase as you say must be done by calculation. Maybe swapping the 2 outer current sensor wires, the 2 outer phase gate controller wiring and the encoder wiring is messing the calculations for the 3rd middle phase somehow. I think you might be onto something there. 👍
Love your work 👍
The bevel gear system on the steering is fairly clever, it must have an idler gear in there too as the output is in the same direction as the input. 🤔
You can always turn the rack 180 degrees. Problem solved.
I believe the bevel gears keep the rotation the same, no idler needed.
Yes, at first thought it would need an idler, but that applies to a gear set like the motor drive set (motor turns opposite way to wheels). If you have a look at (or visualise) a bevel set, both shafts turn in the same direction.
Would be great to see it at fully charged live , but I'd imagine it's not the easiest to transport in current form .
Well done! Proper engineering there!!
Curious about you seating position, which was a bit of an issue, last time around, in conjunction with the front motor.
But I guess that will be part of you next vid, as you need to resolve that before you can fit the bodywork...
⚡️🔋🔋⚡️Love the Progress ⚡️🔋🔋⚡️
Where are you sourcing your tesla powertrains from? I can't find any performance models let alone a PLAID.
Well done
Does the drivetrain oil pump normally sit with oil in? Will it suck oil from startup when mounted at the top? Maybe a mini dry sump kit from a motorbike might be worth considering. Or oil pressure monitor at the least
Another great show, I try to watch them all. Just a little off-topic question, do you ever receive donor cars whole and if you do, do you use the big screen or anything else in your builds or just the drivetrain?
You need to swap the gate drive signals from the logic board to two of the power modules. Just swapping the modules is like swapping two identical carburettors on a twin carb engine.
As I said in the video, I tried that. Didn't work unfortunately. Not sure why, as I would have expected that to work. Thanks for you input. 👍
How didn’t it work?. No movement at all? What errors did it throw? Or just spinning in the same direction?
@@antonnpn9063 No spinning at all. Just a click noise from the Inverter. The sort of sound that tells you it's not a happy bunny. 😁👍
@@ElectricClassicCars
I'm not that familiar with the LTDU, but is the phase current sensor wiring seperate, or combined with the gate drive loom? If it's seperate, then you would have to swap the both the gate and phase current wiring between two power stages.
@@EVguru The current sensor wiring is separate to the gate controller wiring. I swapped both but didn't work. 👍
That'll be a monster.
Those motor mounts, are they really manly enough for all that power?
I thought Tesla motors were more drum like with a similar shaped inverter housing on the other side of the gearbox/diff, like the rear motor, so why is the front motor so different?
The large rear drive unit looks like that but small motors look a little different. 👍
I prefer seeing eviscerated Tesla parts over boring Teslas.......
Hi. Why do all the cars use a 12 V battery. I understand it’s a normal car voltage . As well as the battery pack for the motors. Why not is a transformer to bring the voltage down. One large common battery pack.
Hello! I am considering flipping a Small Tesla drive unit upside down for a Porsche 996 conversion so that I can get the motor in front of the rear axle line similar to this build. Do you see any reason why this would not work? I'm guessing I just need to add an oil pickup line to reach the bottom like you are planning. Thank you for sharing your work!
Thanks for sharing your work and congrats for the test working! I was wondering how the braking and regen system will work in terms of when the disc brakes kick in? Do the disk brakes kick in at certain pressures from the pedal/driver?
That's a nice 190sl there.
realy nice project. Do you know it is possible LDU from model 3 to flip oposite like this S model ? ? Model 3 has heat exchanger with oil and coolant , and it has oilpump ... will oilpump work propertly?? tnx . Hope you see question.
Yes, it's possible. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars tnx 🙂
This is coming together quite nicely! I've got a question. Do you need to sync the two motors to spin at the same linear speed for the front and rear tires to rotate equally? Or do the motor's logic compensate for that? Cheers!
I have the same question!
I ve asked that the last time. it seems the rear motor is the master and the front one the slave. I guess the front control unit receives just the torque setpoint sent from the rear one
@@davidef4162 My ebike has regen so if I set the speed low and go down hill it will slow me down. Would the same happen on the front motor as it was spinning much slower then the rear.
@@davidef4162 That's correct. 👍
@@alibro7512 I guess that, while pushing the throttle, the negative torque limit is set to zero (the regen torque limit), thus preventing the motor to act as a generator. Anyway, I'm not an expert...
Great video. Is the bettle you have was that on Guy Martin's worlds fastest electric car?
Yep. 👍
What wheel hubs are those? They look the same front to rear, is that just a fixed tie rod to keep the rear tracking straight?
Why not move stearing rack to AFT side of motor with Tie-Rods connecting AFT side of steering knuckles ?
Please can you explain what the "pre-charge" is that you mentioned a few times?
Yep, we'll cover that in a future Tech Talk, thanks for the suggestion. 👍
Lighter is better. For pikes peak challenge, is it necessary to have two motors (front and back)? I would just have one. You win race in the corners and with 0-60 acceleration. Yes, 4 wheels has greater traction. Calculate the acceleration speed difference between single vs dual and weight difference. I personally think single motors is best. The more join you add to the steering the more play. Remive the front motor and less play. I do think you should sit low to the ground. Question. Because you are smart, could you replace the shell of the motors from metal to carbon fiber? Less is best. Might not change too much weight but every little bit helps. I strongly wish you could make that chassis out of carbon fiber. Everything you could do, replace, lighter is better, carbon fiber Everything.
A great conversions.
How much for this vehicle all done with windows and hard top . I live in Spain do you know if it can be registered in Spain as it's been modified.
This is a pure race car for the track, so won’t be road registered. 😊
There’s a very good chance that the phase drivers you tried moving don’t have any smarts to them that say which phase they are but the actual cabling going to them dictates what the main controller believes is the phase order. So the board’s physical location doesn’t matter but the cables going to them do. With that said I’d be more keen to flip the motor and sort the oiling and cooling system rather that spin everything backwards. Reason why is those helical gears in those gearboxes create axial loads into the support bearings based on which way they’re designed to spin. If you flip the direction of rotation the axial loads are also flipped. When engineers spec the bearings the dominant load is what they’re going for so you may find that the one that’s on the side that sees the higher axial loads is usually bigger.
We swapped the control wiring too but didn't work for some reason. In the Mercedes B class the Tesla motor spins in reverse so the axial loads on the bearings should be fine.
@@ElectricClassicCars Right on. I wonder what type of encoder it has on it. In some motor controllers they'll re-order the phases based on the encoder during an initial calibration. During the calibration the motor controller energizes the motor phases in an order and checks the encoder to see if it's in the right order. This is a little different than how the VESC works where it updates the hall table to match whatever the phase order is. Silly question but you did swap the encoder order at the same time you swapped the phases yeah?
Since a plaid motor is 2 seperate motors, that can be controlled individually (I think). maybe after Buff-E we could see a plaid powered segway?
🤣👍
How often does the oil and filter in the backmotor have to be changed ? My model S has 260.000Km on the odometer and i wonder if it is necessary to do it now. Have you any advice ? Thx in advance. Greetings, XaRaI. BTW your channel is a real gem, i love it ! :-)
For the film "The Dark Knight" they had a similar problem with the "Bat Pod" (the bike he used in the film). It had a motor in each wheel that needed to be alined to achieve movement. I believe they go through the solution on the bonus disk of the dvd - I don't have the dvd anymore, let alone dvd player, but might be worth doing a dive on.
As for your phase switching on the tesla motor and it not working: The only thing I can think of is that each unit in the motor is assigned a unique ID (similar to a mac address for network enabled devices). I would imagine, on the factory floor, the units are given a firmware flash as the full drive is assembled. The reason for this, is less to do with maintenance but more to do with system control. I wouldn't be surpised if Tesla treats the car like we treat our home devices for connecting bluetooth or to the internet; each device has a unique address, so it knows what it is and where it is.
Yes, that's what I thought too, which is why I swapped the individual phase inverters too. But still didn't work. Thanks for your input. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars No problem. What I mean with the ID is that it's most likely hard coded by Tesla that unit 1 has ID 12334 that represents phase 1. This can't be dynmaically changed or assigned after leaving the factory. I reckon it'll be down to not wanting anyone putting in any custom hardware or doing their own repairs etc.
Thanks
There are two current sensors on the motor phase busbars. Try swapping those if possible or atleast the wiring to them. They are probally running some form of Field Oriented Control method thus heavily relying on current measurements per phase. Did you try running it with just the encoder swapped?
Yep, tried both those things. Still didn't want to work. Thanks Tom. I'm going to try it on another motor on the bench, I'm thinking it might have something to do with it having a dual motor software on the main control board so I'll try it with a single motor setup as I really think what we tried should have otherwise worked. 👍
I was going to ask you to do that 😂 17:02
Do the motors come from wrecked Tesla cars or are they new directly from Tesla as I know they are bastards about selling parts only to just anyone?
I wondered when you were going to get around to flipping the motor. If you cast your mind back a bit, the FJ cars of the '60s using a Renault gear box, turned them upside down and back to front to give the mid engine position and turn the wheels in the correct direction.
I know a number of Porsche and VW gearboxes got flipped over in race cars too back in the day. 😁👍
On old VWs the diffs were made to be installed either way up, one way for the cars and the other for the vans with the portal axles, so the drive could be reversed to compensate for the portal gears. If the diff was accidentally installed the wrong way, you'd have a Beetle with one forward gear and four reverses!
If you need some batteries, I’ve got some 20C capable modules that might work
not really related to the Buffy build, but are the Model 3/Y Motors constrained when trying to use them in a build like this? Do they need further mods to allow them to be used?
Great video btw
The Model 3 motor is a superior motor to the induction motors in a Model S. We use them in a number of builds. Maybe that's a good topic for a future Tech talk, covering the pros and cons of all the different Tesla motors currently available. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars Yes, that'd be great. I saw that Zero EV had a test rig to get the M3 motor to work by modifying the throttle pedal .... but i didn't really understand what they were doing ☺
Could you have done the same on the Land Rover and spun the motors the same way as normal and just run the tail shaft on a bit of an angle?
is that a P1800 in the background? I want to see that!!
No sorry, not had a P1800 yet. 😊
Hey guys, Love your Ingenuity. I would like to take a 2012-14 Chevy Volt and use it to convert my 2011 Chevy Equinox. Do you forsee any big issues?
With your street conversations ,do you have to go through motor engineering approval for street use ?
the controller with the blutooth and ipad app, what brand is this? your own solution for your builds or something we all 'wannabees' can buy for our builds? great work by the way, you have inspired me for a new build -EV Rover P38 ;)
It's an EV Controls system. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars thank you :) found it. hmm, '...and changing logic board in the inverter is not needed' their web says.. sweet!
@@mekefalk may I know the website where you can buy the controller?
Good approach regarding gearbox issues that occur after flipping it over. Does this gearbox have a breather valve or is it completely closed? Is it necessary to seal it and then reposition it on the opposite side?
We're changing the breather into the drain plug now it's at the lowest point. 👍
Who made the fiberglass body if you would please.
I realise that modifying the electronics maybe not be the easiest option, but you could perhaps instead swap over the cables that provide the drives to the IGBT transistors only. Rather than both.
Tried that. Didn't work. ☹️👍
How many KW is that 400v battery packm
Our test pack is 15kWh. 👍
Does the motor know which way up it is? for crash data?
Nope. 👍
What does a build like this cost? can I get an email to get through to you?
Contact us via the website. www.electricclassiccars.com 👍
A better video this time.
Why not set up the steering “by wire”? IE use a servo on the steering unit.
We looked at that but it was very expensive and not really needed when the Bevel box works perfectly. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars I see this as a challenge in so many conversions, I wonder if there’s not an opportunity for someone to produce something effective but budget friendly. Hmmmm
@@autophile525i Are you taking about electric assisted power steering or steer by wire systems?
@@ElectricClassicCars steer by wire. I’m not sure what regulations there are, and if they’d apply to conversions the same as manufacturers.
Could it be that what you swapped on the Tesla motor are just the power units of each phase? Do they receive the control signals from a control unit? If yes, so you have to swap the wiring from the control unit and not the power units, which basically are just signals converters with no knowledge of the phase they supply. Just guessing....
We swapped the control cables too, still didn't work though☹️. Thanks for your help. 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars if the speed and rotor angle are read through a sensor then it might be that the control unit adapts the power unit signals according to the sensor. Then it might be difficult to invert the rotation
@@ElectricClassicCars Maybe you need to flip the phase current sensors too.
If you can, put a magnet in the gear box to grab any metal swarf
The pickup and filter has a built in magnet. 👍
I’m playing catch-up ,brilliant though.
How do you make sure the two motors are synchronized to run at the same speed.
Software 👍
@@ElectricClassicCars thanks for that.
Next time, try to build your chassis around the components. This is a good project, but when building new you need to change your approach. Less downtime, less hindering with components, less compromise. However, I am sure you will get to the bottom of it, but let's say, you get 10 orders for Buffy. Like Elon stated: prototyping is easy, production is hard. I just wait to see where the battery packs will sit.
This is a project for me. We're not planning on building or selling any others. You're correct, designing and building a custom chassis would have been best but then again wouldn't have cost £2k 😁👍
@@ElectricClassicCars Totally understandable from this perspective. I was under the impression that you will make more seeing comments that asked for price pointed to your website contact. My bad.
He is building this vehicle for a specific racing class that all use the same chassis and body 👍
@@Mardy72 Got it Martin. Thank you for making me aware of it.
So light of a car, there is no way to get the excessive power to the ground without vast amount of aero downforce. in other words much more Hp then can be used.
12:00 🤔 My fear is on the flipped-over drive unit: The (small) teeth on the intermediate shaft (towards the motor) are now running throught the oil sump, wich they don't do in the original position. The oil could be beaten to foam or cream on high rpm and the gears plus bearings overheat and get wrecked.
Hello mate 👍
I Heard a comment the other day that if EV batteries were left laying around say in a project car whilst being built they degrade, which could be costly for the self builder, have you had any experience of this or is it just petrol head scaremongering
Degrade? No. Deplete, yes, but only very very slightly. 👍
Elon would have done the same.
#MateRimac