USS Reliant: When the Little Ship is Larger
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 16 ก.ค. 2024
- The USS Reliant is 70 meters shorter than the Enterprise, but is it actually a larger ship overall? We explore that question in this video!
Credits:
Music by Kevin MacLeod ("Andreas Theme")
3D models:
Reliant model: David Metlesits
Enterprise model: Raul Mamoru
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EC Henry explaining why the Miranda is still in service.
in the 25th century with no modernizations.
crap budgets
@@JeanLucCaptain no external modifications. The interior of a 24th Century Miranda was nothing like the interior of a 23rd Century Miranda. The Miranda class was one of the most modular designs in Starfleet. The Soyuz, Saratoga, Lantree, and Antares variants had different External configurations. The Lantree only required a crew of 36 to operate (Hinting at a major upgrade in Automation Technologies).
@@richardched6085 I was thinking more of a total overhaul like Excelsior nacelles and primary hull.
@@JeanLucCaptain the standard Excelsior exterior was still in service beyond the Dominion War. Updated Exteriors like the Enterprise-B and Lakota seem to be a MAJOR retrofit only applied to a few vessels of the Class (Maybe 1 out of 50 Excelsiors were of the Lakota Exterior type, and even fewer with the actual performance upgrades the Lakota recieved)
I always viewed the Enterprise, and Constitution class in general, as the ships of the line, and the Miranda class as the workhorse of the starfleet.
If I recall correctly, the Constitution class were particularly the long-range exploration ships. It strikes me that the difference in shape may relate to this, with the Constitution class layout being more suitable for long-haul travel for whatever reason.
A ship of the line is a ship designed for battle. The constitution is a cruiser. Meant for long range exploration and showing the flag. The reliant would be better suited for fleet battle work.
@@kyle857 Granted, the Connie was the Galaxy class of her time. I suspect that, like the Galaxy class, she was more than capable when pushed into a corner. In fact, the way I see it, the Connie would've had Miranda class ships as support vessels and had her own group of support ships. If Starfleet operated as a pure Navy and not a mixture of NASA and a Navy.
@@absalomdraconis and
I didn't realize how big the Reliant actually was until I built my first model. It was 1:537 scale just like my refit Enterprise. I think the reason why it looks so much smaller is because ILM made the Reliant shooting model smaller than the the established Enterprise Model. And even though "movie magic" can make small things big, and big things small, the fact that the Reliant Shooting model was so much smaller than the Enterprise model did end up showing up on screen.
I always figured the differences between the 2 ships must signify role optimization, the constitution being a long range explorer, and the miranda being a ship operating inside the federation boarders.
Like having a tall warp core with very tall injector towers might be optimal for running at full power for several months long journeys. kind of like how large diesel engine have very large strokes compared to bores. A short warp core, with the same size center chamber proboly has the same potential power output, but with the very short injector towers being a packaging compromise, maybe limits its ability to operate at full to only several weeks in one stint, but that being plenty for system to system travel.
A ship flying through only charted space proboly doesn't need a huge exposed nav deflector, wile an explorer needs to be ready to ward off anything. The connie's secondary hull seems optimized to house the much taller core, even running through the neck, and storing only the provisions it needs for a long journey. It also has a complete saucer, to house more crew quarters and science labs. The Miranda's extra thick rear hull could potentially hold a huge amount of cargo and equipment, not just what it itself need to operate. The ship's in borders role proboly requires much less crew and likely omits whole types of crew departments an explorer would have, so a half saucer of quarters and labs is sufficient.
I'd say the Miranda is also definitely a superior combat ship. Matching the constitution's weapons, with the addition of aft torpedo launchers and some kind of potentially more powerful phaser banks on its role bar. The constitution does have a few more ball turrets ventral and aft, but only because its shape would leave to many blind spots if the only phaser banks were on the saucer.
The constitution is probably becoming undersized and under powered by the late 23rd century for the role of deep space explorer. In 2245, it was likely the ideal size for the role, but instead of gradually larger ships being introduced since then, they practically rebuilt an old class, with only a marginal size increase. look at the jump in size of the excelsior class, utterly gigantic in comparison, and there wasn't anything in between. Except for maybe the constellation class, but my theory on that ship is that its not a late 23rd century new construction, but that its largely built out of the parts of 2 decommissioned constitution class ships in the early 24th century. That class doesn't make any sense 'in universe' otherwise, a new construction would never be such an obvious kitbash.
My constellation class theory, my undersized by the end of the 23rd century theory, and the fact that the internal volume of a Miranda is much greater the the constitution, i think easily explain 'in universe' why the class was totally absent from the 24th century shows, wile the miranda never stopped being useful. If a constitution class was used in the reduced role intended for a Miranda, it would be vastly inferior at it. Under gunned, warp drive and deflector overbuilt for the job, and internal volume utilization is a total miss match. But, i could see it being the perfect academy training ship, having the same layout of the largest explorer types in a small package.
I really like your write-up here. One of things I always enjoyed about Star Trek is how, while not perfect, its world building was consistent enough that one could identify a sort of grounded reality in its universe. One could create believable reasons why ships are designed the way they are, like you've done here. A person can even trace the progression of technology over the centuries; for example, at some point between 2300 and 2333 there must have been a radical shift in Star Fleet technology because suddenly you have Constellation and Ambassador Class ships appearing in the fleets, which are absolute freaking behemoths compared the Excelsior-Class of the late 2280s (which itself dwarfed the classic Enterprise). What would cause the size of Star Fleets ships to balloon in size so dramatically? And then, another shift in technology in the 2370s, after the Dominion War. Even though Star Fleet's most massive and powerful ships, the Galaxy and Nebula classes, are still pretty new, we see tons of advanced designs like the Intrepid, Sovereign, and Akira-Classes, which would seem to indicate that Star Fleet shifted its focus from creating ships that were vast and spacious, to building relatively smaller ships that were geared toward being fast, agile, and combat-ready. It was such a rich Sci-Fi universe, it really makes me sad that modern Star Trek movies and shows have pretty much turned Star Trek continuity into more of a fluid, ever-changing concept than the guiding principal it once was.
You needn't have bothered writing all of this. The mouth-breathing Zoomers who infest TH-cam like fleas on a camel won't read anything longer than a Tweet. They've rendered nerd culture a barren wasteland of reactionary politics and memes.
@@NoJusticeNoPeace looks like it got 10 likes at least, more than i was expecting because you are right about the average user, and "nerd".
@@NoJusticeNoPeace Ok boomer
@@NoJusticeNoPeace u 'k hun?
Versatile, dependable, reliable, and by the Dominion War, a guaranteed one way, ticket to the after life.
victory is afterlife
Every Klingon wants this ship.
Apart from JJ inspired Kurtzman Klingons, they are fish people who have trouble with vowels.
It occurs to me that the Miranda is basically the Federation's Bird of Prey. Small, fast, and plentiful. And about as survivable.
@@Nine-Signs I'd imagine that an alien species that primarily speaks in "pukkrh" and "huech" sounds would have a noticable accent, but whatever.
@@optillian4182 I'm sure they would, but for the prior decades whenever we heard them speaking Klingon they did not remind me of how I sounded aged 5 trying to speak with comedy Dracula dentures in my mouth, but whatever.
“She can still outrun us, and outGun us, but there is the Mutura Nebula at 1-5-3 Mark 4”
I always took that to mean that the Reliant had always out-gunned the Enterprise, though you can definitely read it either way.
@@thegreenmanofnorwich I always took it as that because Enterprise was on Auxiliary power they had no shields, reduced engine and phaser capacity, so had to use the Mutara Nebula to even the playing field. But it stands to reason that Reliant had the more powerful Phaser cannons as well as the standard emitters on the saucer and also had aft torpedo launchers, so technically Reliant does have more firepower.
thegreenmanofnorwich I always took it to mean, “Sauce for the Goose. The Odds will be even.”
Nah, it's obviously a reference to Enterprise being badly damaged and not on equal footing due to that, thus the use of the nebula to equalize matters
Reliant was a research vessel and presumably more lightly armed
More than 40 years later, the Miranda-class is still one of the coolest spaceship designs ever.
I always thought that the Enterprise was larger than the Reliant. Thanks for clarifying that. I actually like the design of this class of starship.
A reasonable assumption since it's more spread out. But the area of those extra decks on the back of the saucer makes a huge difference.
It was also the design intention that the Reliant be a less formidable vessel, even though it didn't work out that way. I always took Spock's line "she can still outrun and outgun us" to mean that Reliant had always been faster and better armed, though that is very open to interpretation. Plus, until I did background reading, I always thought they were supposed to be the same size.
@@thegreenmanofnorwich He said that because the Enterprise was still damaged from Khan's perfect assault earlier. He knew where to hit to cripple the Enterprise. She was not at full power. If so it would not be a contest.
@@hamhockbeans that's one theory. I read the emphasis on the word "still" differently to you
@@thegreenmanofnorwich Makes sense.
This is a really interesting analysis. This suggests to me that (in spite of noncanon designs) the Miranda class was designed after the 2270s and the constitution class refit. It’s basically a condensed constitution class, which I think indicates more advanced technology - greater internal volume, more shuttle bays, advanced dish-less deflector system, but smaller overall size of ship, doing away with the more vulnerable secondary hull (as would later be the case on the Defiant class in the next century). Thanks for the video!
While it's not canon due to net being present in dialogue or other forms in the films or later shows the Miranda was intended to be a newer ship and direct successor to the Constitution class. It not only visibly has more weapons it was intended to have more powerful weapons, with the phasers being used in ST2 being referred to as MegaPhasers!
The only semi canon evidence of this besides the number of weapons on the model is the registration number, the Enterprise is 1701 as it's supposed to be the 17th design of starship and either the first or second of its type built (The Reliant is 1864) 1700 could conceivably be the USS Constitution NX-1700/NCC-1700, though all that, from the NX nomenclature to the class name Constitution and the tradition of naming the first ship of a class after the class are all retcons from years after the franchise started. During TOS the Enterprise was often called a starship class behind the scenes.
So the idea that there must have been a pre refit Miranda is likely mistaken, the ship is a newer class designed sometime after the Constitution class and its equally likely the Constitution refits were simply attempts to bring those ships into line with the newer fleet.
Further, if the number scheme is accurate to the production teams intentions the apparent size of Starfleets fleet in that time is far larger than TOS may have had us believe, the show established that they (at that time) had only 12 "starships". While the Reliant seems to be the 64th or 65th ship of its class! The USS Grissom NCC-638 suggests that the Onerth class predates the 1700 and 1800 series of ships by quite some time and further expands the possible size of the 23rd century fleet.
DrewLSsix ooh I like the idea that the Connie refit was to bring it in line with the Miranda design (assuming it was state of the art and newer than the TOS Enterprise). That actually makes sense from an in-universe perspective.
As for the “12 starships” thing I always interpreted that to mean that there were only 12 (or 13 depending on how one interprets Kirk’s line) constitution class ships and there were ships of other designs - just not the Miranda (or Constellation for that matter - I rather like the idea that there was a lot of innovation in the post-TOS era motivated by new technologies like transwarp that led to a whole host of new ships).
I don’t wanna bash on dsc but it’s a shame that they didn’t stick to the TOS aesthetic so that we could have seen some 2250/60s era designs that looked like the classic Enterprise (I don’t want to start a flame war but I don’t consider the DSC visuals canon...! But I know that’s a debate that I’m never going to win haha!)
@@cha02psc in the current interpretation of canon I would say that's absolutely true, at the time of the filming of TOS and especially early on I think they really did intend the Enterprise and her sisters to effectively be the entire starfleet. The early shows and the behind the scenes information suggests a concept that this type of space travel is actually very new by the time we see the events of the show.
The Cage even claims that warp drive was only recently invented, sometime after the disappearance of the ship they discover that went missing iirc 16 years prior.
As for DSC and its aesthetic, I have my own opinions on it overall. I could have done with something not quite as similar to other modern scifi shows and films, in fact I really rather liked the proto Discovery shown in the teaser. It did look like something that would immediately predate the TOS Enterprise with some updated texture. And the recesses in the saucer that eventually became the gaps in the show were reminiscent of the Oberth class, a ship I have maintained likely predates the TOS Enterprise.
But in defense of the show, the Enterprise is imo a very good interpretation of the original, in terms of enterprises it ranks #2 in my book with the film era ship always being number one to me.
And with that ship and the overall aesthetic it represents being the revised TOS era design I actually see the Disco and her contemporaries as being appropriate for older established designs. They fit well between Enterprise (the show) and the film era and later designs. Their generally rough appearance suits their status as the old ships compared to the sleek and modern DSC Enterprise.
It would be very cool to see contemporaries of the Enterprise even in this new aesthetic.
Another thing I actually like about the DSC designs is they are believably alien in some cases, it's always bothered me how Starfleet seems entirely human in design, especially after Enterprise established that the standard Starfleet design lan8is of human origin and that human Starfleet were the least advanced of all the major powers! Why would the new federation government task all exploration and defense to the people who didnt even have shields?!? To the point that you literally never see a Vulcan or Tellerite ship at any battle in the entire franchise. But several of the ships in DSC so far look like they could be designed by m.j on humans but to a standard dictated by a United fleet doctr8.
Just some thoughts.
@@DrewLSsix In the TOS episode "Court Marshall" there's a chart in the background listing ships which are currently being repaired at star bases, one of which is the Reliant.
@@Panzercommander121 same name different registration.
When the Reliant was first designed for Wrath of Khan, they initially wanted it to be quite a bit more powerful than the Enterprise, giving Kirk yet another obstacle to overcome to prove his superior tactical abilities over Khan.
Huh, I heard the opposite. Ah well.
That would make no sense: "Let's give Kirk a foe whose ship is no match for the Enterprise!"
@@thegreenmanofnorwich I also heard that it was supposed to be a weaker ship. It was originally supposed to be an older version of a constitution class, but was changed when they realized it would be difficult for viewers to distinguish the two ships if they looked the same. The bridge is still a similar to a constitution class bridge (it's the Enterprise bridge redressed) and if you notice the graphics that show the ship layout and damage status on the Reliant's bridge they don't look like the Reliant. They're a constitution saucer and secondary hull, the same as the damage displays on the Enterprise that Kirk and Spock look at when Khan attacks, but in blue instead of green.
Well it makes sense that in order to prove khan's tactical prowess he could win as the "underdog"
As if, say, you brought a gun to a knife fight. Would you not be intimidated if the knife guy disarmed you with ease?
NOPE. They just wanted a design that looked like it came from the same organization but was distinctly different in profile to make the battle scenes less confusing.
Fits with my headcannon that the reason we see so many Mirandas and Excelsiors is that they proved to be very good overall designs. Mirandas had lots of space with big hangers in the back which made it very modular. As well, that roll bar seems to have allowed fairly powerful weapons to be just added as needed. Or sensors. Heck, maybe even cargo pods. Excelsiors had a deep secondary hull and thick neck for powerful sensors and deflector dishes, as well as being able to swap or even add new tech fairly easily. Heck even the nacelles are somewhat detached from the hull proper which may have made swapping them out much easier.
Then given that there didn't seem to be any major conflicts with comparable powers until TNG, an Excelsior was probably able to be enough of a show of force for all the minor powers around. So there'd be only a few Ambassadors needed and eventually Galaxies. Heck, might even explain the plethora of classes we see. A few one offs for a particular purpose.
Of course, it became a handicap in the Dominion war because there was a desperate need for more modern, and probably even more standardized, designs. But with tons of Mirandas and Excelsiors around, keeping them operational by salvaging pieces was probably very helpful in just getting numbers up and freeing up modern designs for more intense stuff.
You can see the hull thickness in the window right next to the docking ring
i was gonna say that... "let's refer to a possibly incorrect measurement, based on a drawing, when there's a perfectly good porthole, that would give us an exact number."
Good plan... if glass (or in this case transparent aluminum) didn’t change the direction of light when it passes through the surface of transparent solids. I believe there’s a scientific term for this but I’m too stupid to remember. It’s how lenses work.
@@ScaryMason Refraction?
@@numberyellow Well the widow can't give us an exact number since we don't knowhow big the window is. Unless there is a diagram somewhere saying how thick those windows are he'd have to guestimate its thickness by comparing it to some other known item, most likely that docking collar, and that would also require additional eyeballing to compensate for the perspective making the window appear larger.
@@planetfall5056 portholes don't span multiple decks. especially in that era. The closest you get, is the rec deck on the constitution class, and the giant windows in the arboretum.
Much of the rectangular structure on the Miranda saucer was in fact devoted to the two shuttlebays. Taking up nearly 80% of decks 4-6 in that section.
In universe, I think the fact that the Miranda is a workhorse better explains why it stuck around. Mirandas were never the fastest or most advanced ships, but they are versatile, as evidenced by all the variants.
Well, at least one Connie (maybe two) was present at Wolf 359. One can argue if that ship was pulled out of a museum...
Just, Just one question. What about uninhabited areas? The Nacelles, the pylons, the roll bar, etc.?
The nacelles seem pretty much identical so there's no difference between the ships in that regard, the torpedo pod is likely crewed like the Enterprises torpedo area and is significantly larger. The pylons and rollbar them selves look to be more voluminous than the Es nacelle pylons and likely only support some maintenance passages and perhaps turbo lift shafts??? Probably not considering how thin the Enterprises neck has been established te be and the Miranda's rollbar seems even thinner.
But, given the dimensions of the pylons and bar I imagine there's really not much internal volume to speak of. The enterprises neck accounting for the 18" thick hull is just barely 3 meters wide inside, about ten feet. The Miranda rollbar looks to be perhaps 2/3 as thick, so you might JUST have enough room for a 6 foot tall person to stand up in the bar. That's standing directly on the lower part of the inner hull and being able to touch the upper inner hull quite easily. Thay doesn't account for any machinery or extra structures, and we have always seen beam type structures inside these ships. People get struck by them often enough.
I could see a small dedicated turbolift for these areas though, little cramped 2 man deals that can snake through the confines spaces making use of that artificial gravity and inertial dampers to not make the crew violently ill, would also work for the Oberth class and its issue with divided hulls.
You say one question, but it is very vague and surprisingly complex.
Are you asking about the potential differences in volumetric efficiency of the components housed within the ship? While i love EC Henry's vids, this whole video is somewhat of a red harring in discussing the cited battle.
The plot of "The wrath of khan" leads us to believe that the Enterprise is technically superior to the Reliant, and that it is the potency of the genetically enhanced crew that makes for a comparable match.
Speaking to components The "roll bar" is the only component between the two ships that exists only on the Reliant, and it is a component with a high surface to volume ratio. Once hull thickness is accounted for there would not be much volume left for the "Roll bar" to add to the ships capabilities. Except if the "Roll bar" is a component who's utility is a function of surface area, like an airfoil. The Oberth seems to have sensors who's potency appears linked to it's surface area (though it also looks to be proportioned differently then the "Roll bar"), and a similar instrument could be in the "Roll bar" which could help the reliant score hits through the miasma of the nebula.
@@MrBranboom Plus the larger pod phasers.
I'd surmise that the torpedo pod of the Reliant is actually unmanned, much like how I see the "pod" on the Grissom as being an unmanned "machinery space".
After taking into account just how much space the launchers take, how much have you got left in the pod for weapon storage? Remember, torpedoes aren't small things and take a lot of room to store and handle. You likely wouldn't have enough room for people to work in there!
The rollbar likely doesn't have the space for a lift, IMO, thus removing any kind of possibility that the torpedoes are moved from the hull to the pod via the rollbar.
@@garethfairclough8715 : The roll bar _should_ be large enough to have space for a (cramped, you might actually have to sit down, and/or switch lifts when transitioning between roll bar & risers) lift, but I _do_ think it likely that the torpedos are stored in either the roll bar, or the pod itself.
Never would've guessed that Reliant would have more area.
The Reliant also has two visible shuttle bays, while the Enterprise only has the one. Do the Deck plans of the Reliant show how much interior space is taken up by hangar bays?
Unfortunately, there is nothing in canon that will explain this. If you're looking for a good non-canon source, go to Google images and enter "Miranda-class deck plans." One of the images will link to a website called Cygnus-x1. You'll find complete full-color plans there.
@@Willpower-74205 ....www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars/avenger-class-heavy-frigate.php
In 1984 another set was printed, I have 'em, though it doesn't show the interiors like this one does, Berman's crew screwed up everything by renaming, then there is the first "Ships of the line" book that also uses "Avenger" .
There is cannon on the size of the shuttle bays on most ships. Even though the constitution class had one door per say it took up alot of space. Probably just an estimate guess. The shuttle bay was 2 levels tall, and almost a little short of half the saucer section. You also have to remember that the original enterprise that kirk captained had saucer separation abilities also. The Miranda class had 2 bay doors and about the same space for shuttles.
The Reliant always looked to me like a Federation version of the Klingon battle cruiser.
It basically is - look at those giant phasers.
Either way, if you find yourself assigned to a Miranda Class... Get your affairs in order because likely RIP
Explodium...
As a counterpoint, of the Constitution class ships we saw, a lot more of them seemed to suffer total losses or serious mishaps. What was the best way to establish a threat to the crew of the Enterprise? Have the crew of an identical ship get wiped out off-screen!
Depends which century. The Reliant stood her ground quite well against the Enterprise, and wasn't destroyed by battle, but by Kahn detonating Genesis inside her. In the 24th century however, they just weren't kept up to date enough and we see the rather tragic result of a once good class of ship not being suitable for what was being asked of it.
“a handy pre-fab coffin for 400 federation officers” -Spacedock
You know your ship should be retired when it comes out of refit with an airlock directly behind the command chair.
There are still things like
- Enterprise having more efficient warp profile
- Enterprise having larger (taller) warp core
- Enterprise having much more advanced deflector / shield systems
Basically Enterprise is a better equipped long range vessel, while Reliant is a more cost effective generic ship of the line.
The TOS movie ship designs are my favourite. The Miranda might be my actual favourite class.
In getting into a tabletop RPG style Trek game in the 80's I discovered the Miranda class was an offshoot of an earlier design, the Baker class destroyer model. It's apparently non-canon info though, but a fun read: memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Baker_class
This is making me wanna build the model kit that's been in my room like 6 months now... more Reliant more better (except when full of badguys
Make sure to have your quarters by the escape pods, you’re going to be needing them.
No, it was a remodel of the Anton-class cruiser in the FASA game, not the Baker
memory-beta.fandom.com/wiki/Anton_class
Love stuff like this! :) Thank you for answering (or at least trying too) all the little questions fans like me have considered for decades :)
Nice to see some more Star Trek on the channel, keep up the good work
Dude the way you go in depth with this ships is Awesome! Keep up the great work!
Interesting. I was hoping you would account for habitable space vs tech and solid metal, though. Still, pretty cool.
Trekyards ought to see this.
I wondered about that too. Also should crew compliment be considered? According to Memory Alpha, a Constitution Class ship has a crew of 430 and a Miranda Class a crew of 220.
It looks like a significant percentage of that primary hull extension is taken up by the duplicate hanger bays. I'm not aware of any canon descriptions about how much of the pre-refit secondary hull was used for shuttle storage and maintenance forward and/or below the main space shown on screen during the original series.
Bear in mind that the Entrrprise-A crew complement was 300 "we have a crew of 300 turning their quarters..." A smaller complement may also be due to better integrated technologies on a ship designed for them, rather than refitting an older ship with those technologies. The constitution refit shuttlebay changed sizes too. We get glimpses in the motion picture that shuttlebay and cargo areas probably take up at least half of the secondary hull. In the final frontier, we get much more footage, showing an overall much much smaller facility.
Excellent presentation! Thanks for posting!
Loved this video; thanks for taking the time to put it together. The cool thing about ST II is that it proves that bigger isn't always better though. When pitted against the Enterprise in space, Khan's group wasn't as skilled at running a starship as Kirk's, even though the Enterprise crew that that moment was made up of about 90% cadets. This is brought up several times in ST II: that Kirk's crew knows how to unlock the Reliant's shields with a prefix code, and also that Khan thinks in 2 dimensions, but space battles are fought in 3 dimensions. Plus, k'now, it's Kirk and company. So having the slighting bigger ship wasn't as much of a factor as the skills of the crew running it.
I don't think it really matters which is larger.
The Constitution class is designed to be more tactically competent on its own, being an explorer, while the Miranda is more of a support ship, meant to operate as part of a group, when called upon to fight. That is why the Reliant needs to ambush the Enterprise, not because the Enterprise is of a fundemtally larger class.
If one Klingon or Romulan ship is 19% larger than another, it's almost certainly going to be more powerful. However, due to the Starfleet doctrine whereby no ship is a warship, but every ship has the capacity to function like a warship, it's much harder to judge Federation ships based on size.
Amazing video! I loved the math and explanations for everyone to see/understand. Thank you!
Love these videos! Super thought provoking!
Do you have any thoughts on the Constellation class? that extra thick suacer section dotted with hangar doors always makes me imagine it as a mobile logistics ship, parking up in key sectors to act a bit like a distribution warehouse ^^
Funny, I've always seen the Constellation Class as a sort of mobile shuttle carrier. Using it's many shuttle craft to quickly map an entire solar system while acting as the shuttle's mobile base of operations. Yes it does have the volume to carry really worth while loads of cargo, and was used as you describe, but that is not the sum total of it's usage.
I thought that the Constellation would be great as a carrier *if* they included fighters into Star Trek. I mean has anyone looked up through image search with key words "star trek fighter" at all? I do like those non canon fighter designs, even if they are a bit too big length wise.
@@whitewolf3051 They had fighters in DS9 and Discovery. The DS9 ones were basically Runabout-sized ships that were mostly engine and weapons, and the Discovery ones were basically single-seat shuttles with really big engines and phasers. Also, the Discovery ones were mentioned as being prototypes, so presumably their absence elsewhere in the franchise just meant that Starfleet decided they didn't have much use for them.
That said, in both cases we only see the fighters once or twice, only brought out for big space battles.
@@Raguleader I don't mean fighters that were shuttle sized vehicles, and I don't consider Discovery canon. After what I saw on TH-cam about what Discovery did to Klingons or Vulcans, Spock in particular, no one should accept Discovery as canon. The angel thing with one of the characters not only makes her a Mary Sue, but it's the same trap that Charlie X, Wesley Crusher and Kes fell into, which shouldn't have existed in the first place to begin with.
No, I'm talking about fighters that are like fighter planes, maybe half the size, with good defenses for its size, decent weaponry, and would serve as fare support craft. In fact, the constellation class ships would be perfect carriers with all those hanger bays.
I'd imagine the Constellation-class as a sort of landing craft carrier. Capable of deploying a large number of personnel and equipment for colonists, scientific expeditions and, in wartime, ground assault troops.
Thanks for those calculations. Too many people think the the Miranda class was a lesser version of the Constitution. A mere science vessel as it were. But, I think it was actually intended as a successor to the constitution class.
Miranda was a warship. That's why it was involved in the high security genesis project. The Constitution was a long range cruiser.
Thanks for posting this video and others in the past, I really enjoy them. This video really helps offer an in cannon explanation for why the Maranda class is still around in TNG era while the Constitution class is long gone. The Maranda is a newer more compact design that's actually a little bigger and can perform all the same tasks as a Constitution class.
That was a great analysis!!
When the travel pod docks with the Enterprise, you can see the port hole window next to it looks slightly thinner than the pod's docking ring. I think the dock ring is thicker to compliment the latching/sealing mechanisms.
How did that shuttle pod leave the Enterprise after being docked? Scotty was piloting it!
In the background after it docks, a voice in the shuttlebay says that a pod is now free. One can assume someone used it to leave prior to departure, like the pre-flight catering crew
Autopilot, or maybe it was left there for someone else that needed a shuttle pod back to the station?
Pre-plotted remote course, perhaps?
@@jurassickaiju14 Scotty is exactly that kind of guy that would manually fly a mundane tour and docking maneuver rather than sit and twiddle his thumbs.
@DrewLSsix TMP certainly proves that. :)
Really surprised EC Henry doesn't have more subs. Each one of his videos are in depth, well fleshed out and fascinating as Spock would say.
In early 2367 at the battle of wolf 359 it is said that at least one Constitution-class starship participated in that battle and you can see the secondary hull in the scene when the Enterprise D passed by.
Excellent Video. Nice work,.
I always looked at the Miranda Class compared to the Constitution Class as like the British battle cruiser design compared to the battleship design in WW1 & 2. (yes, I know Enterprise and Reliant they weren't battleships, but for the purpose of comparison). The battle cruisers were often physically bigger than the battleships AND carried battleship sized main battery. This visual appearance caused people to treat them like battleships. But they weren't; they were just big cruisers. And they didn't last long in actual battle with battleships (they had a nasty habit of blowing up). See Battles of Jutland and Denmark Straits. Consider when Kirk gets things in an even fight, even a badly damaged Enterprise is able to blow the ever living snot out of Reliant with a few shots. The only way Kahn did the damage he was able to accomplish at all was he caught the Enterprise in a completely stood down, shields down, weapons off, everyone relaxing position. That sneak attack was the only thing that gave him a chance.
You have to fit the warp core, anti matter etc etc into the Miranda hull plus it has much larger shuttle bays then the Connie and 2 of them. It has to fit more into one primary hull.
I have a lot of love for the miranda class. Great vid.
Back in the day(early 80's) I would often ponder this very question.
Great job!
Awesome video!
The Reliant/Miranda Class is my favorite of the TOS/first six movies era.
I remember when they were called "Avenger-class".
@@xheralt I favour the idea that was a legitimate variant design, with improved combat specifications, myself (NCC-1860 vs NCC-1833, etc)
Very cool video, and very interesting question. It's hard to argue with math, but I was wondering about the rectangular extension on the Reliant. If you look at blueprints, the rectangular extension is virtually all flight deck/shuttle bay on both sides. In the rear you can see those shuttle bay doors and how large they are. So, while the reliant may have more internal volume, I would argue that the Enterprise has more functional space for crew quarters and whatnot.
The Reliant seems to be some form of carrier. It was probably often used to help colonize worlds, bring supplies, and help defend the Federation's border since it was so well armed.
I would like to know what the ship's disadvantage would be in not having a large dedicated deflector array.
I see the Miranda as a Destroyer/LDH hybrid. It has those huge, front-facing phaser cannons to bear down on a target and brute force them in to submission, but also large hanger decks to launch ground assault troop shuttles from. That's its wartime role, of course.
In peacetime, it can probably serve as a more long-term research vessel. You see, it occurs to me that the Enterprise never stays in one spot long enough to do any in-depth study. Which makes sense. It's a fast, long-range cruiser. It's job is to go in to uncharted space, chart it, make some preliminary observations and classifications, and move on to the next system. If a planet or system is deemed interesting enough, they send in a Miranda-class to carry a full long-term expedition and equipment for an outpost or duckblind. Since both it's roles are much more focused in sub-light activities, it probably forgoes much of the Connie's impressive long-range sensors in favor of a wider variety of short-range and planetary scanners. Which would explain why one was chosen to find a suitable planet for Phase III of the Genesis Experiment.
As for the lack of a navigational deflector, the disadvantage there could be slower Warp speeds. It's engines are probably just as capable as a Connie's, but without a nav dish it's standard shielding might not be robust enough to take the impact of debris at high warp speeds. I'm also of the opinion that the nav deflector contributes an extra layer of shielding in combat, as well. So even with Reliant's large phaser cannons, Enterprise's oversized deflector might still have been capable of tanking some hits. Which lines up with it being able to eat a hit from V'ger that vaporized a K'tinga-class in one hit.
BTW, none of this is canon. I'm just having fun extrapolating.
You were good to consider Hull thickness in the internal volume, but you didn't consider and exclude the space between the decks, which is roughly as thick as the outer hull but probably a little less. And in my opinion, at the end of the day, the internal volume of a ship really comes down to the space that a person can occupy. This means that square floor space should be considered as well. The Miranda class has two large hangers that connect as a single room on the inside and extend up by at least three decks. This eliminates a lot of its potential occupancy space.
Also the Constitution class ship is still in service by the 2360's. One fought and was destroyed at the battle of Wolf 359. And the USS Republic, a Constitution class is still serving as a Cadet training ship during the Dominion War.
For a while I have thought that Reliant had a larger internal volume. I was thinking it would be nice to build a couple watertight scale models and quantify it with immersing them in water and measuring the displacement.
One thing to keep in mind, though, is that the reliant has that second shuttlebay. Likely the second shuttlebay eats up all (if not more) than that 19% volume increase. That might be something EC Henry could calculate given the dimensions of the door and how far the recessed stripes on the top extend from the back of the hull.
starsiegeplayer The second shuttlebay is still part of the habitable internal volume of the ship.
I’m a grown man and I just did a complete nerd out from beginning to end. It was great! Good job.
Hello EC.
I h
ave always loved the Reliant and the Miranda Class in general. You've just given me more reasons to love it even more. I have never been a fan of the Constitution's 'neck' assembly design. An obvious weak point where an enemy can do maximum damage to the vessel.
The Miranda Class was used as a 'test bed' ship for ever newer technologies to be installed into other classes of ships. This does reduce some of the available internal volume, since systems have to be designed to be almost 'plug and play', with generic attachment points... or even multiple available attachment points. This includes Data ports and power conduits as well as any other required input-export systems (like: a new Environmental System, which would have power, data, water, air, waste disposal, and other linkages).
Even though this would take up a fair portion of available cubic volume, there is enough that the Miranda Class can easily support all the functions of a Constitution Class ship, and more.
Especially since all the 'Lab' spaces would be highly configurable and adaptable, even though such 'customization' might have to be performed at Space Dock, or a Ship Yard.
The only 'real' difference between the two classes is the positioning of their Warp Nacelles. The Connie's high positioning allowing for greater acceleration, while the Miranda's lower positioning allowing more maneuverability.
Your assumption of hull depth is wrong.
The docking ring protruding 18" would mean that the hole in the 1701 had no space for an airlock door on the inner side. Thus you'd have a hole in the side.
You need to allow for enough depth there for the ships' side airlock door; plus actually a bit more for strength around the hole. I'd double what you had allowed for.
You'd got a need for power trunking for the shield grid; passive EM shielding etc.
This was a really cool video
Very cool!
Such great videos.
Fascinating
Great video,
amazing. thank you
Your work on this was superb and logical.
Your work on the imperial Nebulon -B like this vid made so much sense. The Reliant to me was a beast next to the Enterprise in my mind. As Spock said..."they can outrun us and outgun us" (of course the Enterprise was badly wounded)
That is fascinating!
Now that is a fascinating analysis. I've always assumed the Constitution and Miranda Class saucers were the same size, but I was never entirely sure how much additional volume the aft end of the Miranda actually had. If you're right, the answer could easily be the equivalent volume of the Constitution's entire secondary hull.
Loved this! Live long and prosper
I haven't seen blueprints for the Miranda class, so I'm also curious how its warp core is configured. In the original series, the secondary hull of the Enterprise was almost entirely consumed by the warp core, the shuttlebay, cargo holds, and the hardware behind the deflector dish. There was very little livable space in the secondary hull, and the plasma conduits ran directly out of the warp core and into the nacelle pylon struts. With the transition to the standing cylindrical warp core for the Constitution refit, the secondary hull was opened up for a lot of other facilities, while still maintaining the relatively short plasma conduit distance between the warp core and the nacelle pylons, and while also keeping that potentially hazardous equipment away from the primary habitable interior of the saucer.
So how much of the interior of the Reliant is taken up by the warp core, and how much of the interior is taken up by the plasma conduits running through the interior of the ship to the nacelle pylons? Does the Reliant have a similarly-sized warp core? Is the ship meant for long-range exploration and reconnaissance missions (as the Enterprise is)? Or does it have a relatively under powered engine more suitable to shorter-range operations within Federation borders? If the mission and capabilities of the Reliant are similar to the Enterprise, then the warp core would surely take up a lot of the internal volume, and I would also wonder if heat and radiation would render large chunks of the surrounding area unsuitable for habitation. Alternatively, if the ship were intended to have a smaller warp core, then the more compact design may have been a concession to reduce the size of the warp field, thus allowing the smaller engine to perform similarly to larger ships with a dedicated secondary hull.
In summary, the Reliant, without a secondary hull to contain the warp core and run plasma directly to the nacelles (while also keeping the plasma away from habitable parts of the ship), would have a lot more of its internal volume consumed by its engine, and supporting infrastructure, and internal shielding and insulation. I would think that future Trek series corroborate this idea, as Starfleet continued to design ships that used a primary saucer hull (consisting of the primary habitable areas of the ship) and a secondary engine hull. This design is present in the Excelsior class, which is definitely an experimental design that came AFTER the Miranda. If the Miranda design were more efficient, then why did the Excelsior go back to having a large secondary hull? This design also goes forward to the Ambassador class (Enterprise C) and the Galaxy class (Enterprise D). So it must have offered some advantage over the more compact design of the Miranda.
This hits on something I've come to realize in recent years: volume is much, much more relevant than length. It's harder to wrap your head around as an abstract value, but it tells you a lot more about what that ship is capable of.
Indeed.
Think about a borg cube. Typical size for one is 2km long.
(but voyager suggested they came in many sizes, with one being as much as 3km)
a 2km to a side cube is 8 cubic km.
A 3km to a side one is not 1.5 times the size though;
It's volume is 27 km^3 or more than 3 times as large as the 2km type.
For that matter we can estimate that the Enterprise D has a volume of about...
Well, it's a pretty complex shape. But it's rectangular dimensions are roughly 641x463x195 metres.
That amounts to 0.057872685 cubic km.
But, given it's actual shape, that's an upper limit, and in all probability it has about 1/4 that volume, if that.
So if we simplify, we get about 0.0145 km^3
That means our 2km to a side cube, which, given the way human scaling intuition works would appear to be about 4 times the size...
Is in reality closer to 552 times the size.
And people wonder why it takes an entire fleet to take down a single borg cube. XD
If they sent in a 3 km cube, it'd be even worse... (1862 times the size)
Star wars ships meanwhile aren't as large as they seem.
A 1.6 km star destroyer... Surely that's nearly comparable to a 2 km cube right?
Well, really it's closer to being a square based pyramid. Based on diagrams it's height is about 1/6th it's length and it's width is about 1/2 it's length.
Given the square based pyramid formula of (l*h*w)/3
That gives (0.2667*0.8*1.6) / 3 = 0.1138 km^2
So even that is only 1/80th of a 2km borg cube. (and 1/237th of a 3km cube)
Which, incidentally, also shows us that a Star Destroyer is about equivalent in size to roughly 7.8 galaxy class ships.
So, on an equal footing for other technology, that would be a rather unpleasant matchup...
But a Super Star destroyer? 19km long...
That's way, WAY bigger than a borg cube, isn't it?
Well, let's see. Same broad shape as the regular Star Destroyer.
About 1/5th it's length wide, and 1/10th it's length tall...
Which gives us (1.9*3.8*19)/3 = 45.73 km^3
Well... OK. That's big...
But our 3km cube (and yes we HAVE explicitly had a 3km cube in Star Trek - the one that attacked the Raven in a voyager episode about 7 of 9's past), is 27 km^2
So just two of those together are definitely bigger than an SSD.
(and six, two km cubes would also do it.)
And there we see a great example of why people have such terrible intuition for scale.
2x3 > 19?
Seems intuitively off, doesn't it? XD
But it's correct in terms of volume...
For that matter, that SSD 19 vs 1.6 km... ~12 times the size?
Nope. 45 km^3 vs 0.1138 km^3 = ~400 times the size...
Oh, and to get a cube as small as a Star Destroyer? 500 metre cube.
Still slightly larger than a Star Destroyer... XD
I tell my wife that.
I like that you consider the thickness of the hull, but (and I don't even know if this is feasible) I would go even further and see if any canon blueprints or cross sections can tell us how much of each class is empty or unusable space. The nacelles and their struts, and the supports for the roll bar, I would imagine are pretty much empty voids or unviable deck space with an access tube or turbolift shaft.
Pylons and/or the roll bar would be a practical volume to store hydrogen for fusion reactors or the matter half of the fuel for the warp engine. There would of coarse still be access tubes and conduits for things like ventilation, plasma and power distribution. This would be similar to contemporary aircraft storing fuel in the wings.
@@robertvirginiabeach I don't think they would put fuel, reactors, or anything combustible in what are easily the thinnest and probably most easily damaged parts of the ship.
@@theunknownone5990 We're discussing a spacecraft here. As long as it's not antimatter a liquid you normally think of as combustible won't catch fire because it wouldn't have an oxidizer nearby to combine with. It would just spill into space. The most sensitive parts of the ship would be the antimatter storage pods, the warp core (because it handles antimatter) and the crew.
@@robertvirginiabeach Exactly!
Love this video. ☺︎
And interesting video about my two favorite Federation ship designs.
The Miranda is one of my favourite classes, she is such a workhorse that it's great to see her last so long in universe, even with Akira's, Intrepid's and Nebula's flying around, she still has a part to play.
Nicely done EC Henry. However, I think that you could do a similar analysis with the millennium falcon perhaps, and try and analyze the inside deck structure... maybe?
I think the easiest way to do this comparison is by subtracting the parts they have in common.
Or like when comparing the Enterprise D and E, look at the ships without their nacelles.
Interesting video!
*insert "last time I was this early...' jole here*
But, seriously, folks, this is something I've wondered about for years, always assuming Habitable internal volume would be more or less the same, rather than overall internal volume, due to things like the warp plasma conduits being inside the main hull, etc.
Awesome job.
Habitable volume as separate from engineering spaces that can support life has always been a mystery in star trek. The Miranda also gives up significant space to those two shuttle bays, I'm sure that like the Enterprise throughout the films those bays could be any size required for the shot. If they were fitted out like the motion picture version of the E with the deep cargo area the Miranda would have a huge volume dedicated to just shuttle/cargo operations.
The Miranda class might be a more space-efficient design but the Constitution silhouette has advantages too - holding the engineering section separate allows better containment of disasters
Nice preliminary look at the dimensional differences, but it is far short of the final result. The best way to compare to the two ships would be to delete the extraneous "uninhabitable" areas. This would include the warp nacelles, the faring struts and the Miranda's roll bar. While we know from episodic support that these areas are connected to passageways for internal access, they are not living areas. This would leave the Miranda's enhanced saucer hull and the Constitution's primary and secondary hull including the adjoining neck. The resulting figures would be a much better base from which to start.
From this point forward, a bit of guess work is going to be involved. Specially as it relates to the hanger bay arrangements. The Constitution's hanger bay is much smaller and is fairly well-defined. What we do not know well about its hanger bay are the ancillary maintenance and cargo areas adjacent to it. But, these are not impossible to determine figures because of the detailed blue prints and the many episodic shots taken from inside these areas. Whatever this figure becomes should be a rough correlation of each of the hanger bay areas on the Miranda class. This indicates that the Miranda has devoted roughly twice as much space to these operations. This implies a difference mission profile. The use of the Reliant in ST:TWK as a support ship for the Genesis Project where planetary explorations are likely supports the idea of many shuttlecraft being required for the pursuit of the planetary studies.
While there are two shuttle bays on the Miranda to the single one on the Constitution, this is also not a full explanation of volume demand. Each shuttlecraft carried has a set level of maintenance and therefor crew man hour demand as well as supporting spares and consumables. Therefore, the demand of internal volume is going to be exponential, not linear for each shuttlecraft embarked. Even if the Constitution's hanger bay carried a hypothetical dozen shuttlecraft in it's hanger to the six in each of the Miranda's hanger bays, the Miranda is going to demand a higher volume of space because of duplicated services.
While it is an assumption, visual evidence from episodic productions have shown portions of the engineering areas of these class of starships and the impression given is that these spaces run from top of hull to bottom. If that is so, there is now crossover connection between the two hanger bays on Miranda. All support, launch, storage, fueling, consumable and maintenance is thereby duplicated. That is a lot of inefficient space, unless it is supported by demand of mission profiles.
"Speculation on my part" - A ship of this class might very well carry specialized shuttlecraft in one bay and general purposes in the other to properly perform a mission.
The next major area to compare is the weapons suite.
The 'saucer' section of the Miranda class and Constitution class share placement of the 6 twin phaser bank emplacements. These arcs on the Constitution give a considerable field of fire in both upper and lower hemispheres as well as a full 360 degrees bearing from the ship. Those same emplacements on the Miranda class have drastically retarded arcs. The port and starboard dorsal banks have an extremely small arc of fire. The ventral phasers, port and starboard have a restricted arc of fire because of the warp nacelles but has a very limited rearward facing arc in the lower hemisphere.
These same phasers are affected for the same reason on the Constitution class, but the Constitution class addresses this problem with the addition of 6 single mounted phaser weapons emplacements: two are on the center line offset over the hanger bay doors giving them a very wide field of fire in both hemispheres as well a respectable ability to fire well forward of midships. The other 4 additional phasers are also single mounts at the lowest curve of the secondary hull. These phaser emplacements have a full 360 firing arc in the lower hemisphere.
The Miranda class has a pair pulse phaser emplacements at the joints of the roll bar. While it is possible that they are able to fire forward and aft, we only evidence of forward firing arcs. They also appear to have a limited gimbals affect in their firing arc implying the ship has to be facing the target with 30 degrees of heading. It must be noted in the film ST:TWK these were the only phasers utilized. It is speculation as to why that would be. The Constitution class does not mount these types of phasers.
The photon torpedo launchers. Visual evidence suggest that the Constitution class does not have rear facing photon torpedo launchers, although dialog stats that it does. There is visual evidence for forward and aft firing torpedo launchers on the Miranda class. This is what I have assumed, but the question to be asked is why and again that comes down to being explained by mission profile.
The next major system of space consumption is the main deflector array. As we have seen, this is a device able to do many things beyond deflecting materials out of the flight path of a starship in motion. The Constitution class has one, the Miranda class does not. It has been supported by evidence of seeing the Miranda class ship moving at both sub-light and warp speeds that she must have some form of this ability otherwise such movement would be impossible. Because the Miranda class must be equipped with a smaller and implied less able array, she lacks the special skills possible with the larger array.
Once these various systems are taken into account, the mission profiles of the ships began to diverge and that leads into combat and performance areas.
The Miranda class appears to be optimized for two primary task, forward fire power and support operations. Secondarily, she has a devoted a great deal of space to auxiliary craft and lacks the ability to rely heavily on her deflector system. The Constitution class has the ability to lay down concentrated phaser fire at all bearings and in both hemispheres. The Constitution classes torpedo systems are limited to forward arcs. The Miranda class can fire in both the fore and aft arcs. This implies a different set of tactics in combat.
A Miranda class is not a general combat starship, her firing arcs indicate she is designed to assault a target in a strafing run; firing at the target from multiple mounts and then following up that assault with rear firing torpedoes. This also implies she lacks maneuverability implying her attack runs are predictable.This is a very Klingon and Romulan style of combat - overrunning the target. The visual evidence of Miranda class starships in combat seem to support this theory.
The Constitution class a general combat starship. While her phasers fire in all directions with concentrated fire, her torpedoes only fire forward. It is obvious from the design that rear facing torpedo launchers would marry the design well at the base of the neck and rectify rearward arcs. Because we see no visual evidence of this, we must assume (speculation) that this is not considered a big problem for Star Fleet. This implies that the Constitution class is expected to maneuver in combat bringing her torpedo launchers to bear. We see evidence of this as early as the TOS episode: Balance of Terror.
The shields of each are likely to be different. Miranda is expected to take fire predominantly from the forward arcs as she performs her strafing runs. If she has weaker shields anywhere it will be in the aft arcs where she is unlikely to be hit in these maneuvers. The Constitution class is expected to take fire from all bearings, indicating that no facing has precedent over the others.
As a whole these assumptions lead to the conclusion that Miranda is a multi-purpose starship that has an assault style combat style suited to hit and run. Her shields and weapons are focused forward at the expense of all-around usefulness. The Constitution class is a dedicated combat starship able to fight from any bearing with homogeneous shield and phaser fire. It is assumed she has the extra power and agility to bring her torpedo launchers to bear with alacrity.
At this point, the conclusion supports why Miranda is still in service and the Constitution class is not. The Federation of Planets always has a need for a support cruiser able to fight its way out of a bad situation regardless of its age. The Miranda is a compact and efficient design for support services with two large shuttle bays, but combat is a secondary role. The Constitution has one job, defend Federation Space. New ships roll out of the designs bureaus ever generation to take up this mantel.
It is often said that the Constellation class was a successor to the Constitution class. I do not share that opinion. The Constellation class is a successor to the Miranda class and it failed for whatever reason. The successor to the Constitution class was the Excelsior class, where even see this at the end of ST:TUC. The hand off could not be more obvious and just to drive home that implication, we see in ST:G, the Enterprise B is a modified Excelsior class starship.
More like this, please.
Interesting video! 😊
One of my theory is, the compact configuration like Miranda do has advantages of better internal volume efficiency, as well as a easily constructed hull design, but it will sacrificed the ship's high-speed cruising ability and endurance as cost. An individual engineering hull dedicated to housing warp reactor, fuel storage, consumable supplements, and, of course, a full-scale navigation deflector dish array, will have noticeable benifits to the ship's endurance, cruising ability, and capabilities of conducting independently operations.
We actucally can seeing such a design orientation on many trek ships: those ships that design for long-range, high-speed independently operations, like the Constitution, Excelsior, Ambassador, Galaxy, Sovereign - all have a large, individual engineering hull. For those ship that espercially proud of their speed, like the Sovereign, Excelsior and Intrepid, their engineering hull is remarkably large particularly.
On the other hand, most of starships that are design for utility missions, which often conducts support mission inside federation space therefore payload capacity and maintenanceabilities are far more important than speed and range, are usually looks like Miranda - a more compact configuration, lack of individual engineering sections and full-scale deflectors, like the Centuar, Califonia, and Parliament.
Great video, and the end is now added to my headcanon. Keep up the great work, and I can't wait to see more!
i seem to recall mr scott's guide to the enterprise as having the hull thickness in it, if you take that as canon or secondary canon
Reliant "laughing in Ticonderoga class cruiser"
Entetprise "frowning in Spruance class destroyer"
Hahaha. I like this reference. I’ve spent time on both classes.
What’s ironic is that the Enterprise was patterned from the US navy ships left over from WWII. The ones that were stripped down and refit like the Essex class, Midway class, Albany class, Allen M Sumner class... etc.
The Spruances were designed to be upgraded from the beginning because of this. But besides some Tomahawk ABLs and a few superficial upgrades they weren’t and they were retired early.
I think that Spruance/Arleigh Burke would be more appropriate. Aside from the Spruance and Ticonderoga being almost the same design.. the Arleigh Burke is larger in spite of being 20 or more feet shorter.
@@Bartonovich52 the Ticonderoga class was bigger and heavier ships based on the Spruance hulls was the point much like the Reliant uses components from the Connie.
Nice video 👍
Starfleet: "Let's make out new ships more compact"
Excelsior class: "Yesn't."
A hull thickness of 18 inches puts it on the same armor thickness class as the armored belt of the Iowa class battleships of the WWII and post-WWII era. Given that the advanced alloys used can be presumed to be better (for space combat) than even the best armor compositions of the 20th century, 18 inches of advanced duranium-cortenide-tritanium alloys thus represent SERIOUS protective capability. This alone implies the destructive energy output of ship's phasers and photon torpedoes. (To say nothing of quantum torpedoes which came along a few decades later.)
The Connie maintains the optimal warp profile of a long range cruiser, however, while the reliant basically is operating on a Klingon or Romulan style warp profile.
I think the implication would be that the Miranda is not as capable of operating beyond federation logistics networks.
Additionally, the Miranda Class would be more powerful.
In the scene where the shuttle is docking on the port side of the secondary hull of the refit Enterprise, there is a window shown that may provide a better opportunity to grasp the average thickness of the hull. I suspect, like most docking structures, that the ship to ship interface is actually more robust than a common portion of exterior structure across most of the rest of the ship, with some exceptions. But it's difficult to imagine without more accurate plans how much of the ship is a thinner but stronger skin-over instruments or structural skin like a unit-body car chassis. Also interesting - original documents talked about the Constitution class placing the nacelles far from the ship's body because of the power and newness of the advanced warp engine tech. So perhaps Miranda, being a later-than-Constitution design came along when the engines are more fully proven and understood in practice and not just design. Anyway I do enjoy your thinking and, like you say, it's a fun exercise.
Thank you! That was the best and most concise explanation I've heard, and explains why the Mirandas nearly completely replaced the Constitutions. Still the Constitutions are the better looking, and would much prefer to have seen them in those huge armadas in DS9.
Very fun to know! I know a retired U.S. Navy guy who is also a fan of everything ships. I am going to see what he has to say, hehe.
Surely all docking equipment would be compatible within all Federation built ships. So the docking connections would be near identical in size. It also doesn't take into account any additional thickness of the hull beyond the docking equipment.
Don't forget the RELIANT has 2 very large shuttle bays. And storage rooms. Most of it is a lot of empty space. The ENTERPRISE refit. Has a crew of 500. Can carry 1000 max. The RELIANT less then 200 with a maximum of 500. The RELIANT also has more firepower.
Have you 3D modeled a Federation-class dreadnaught? I love the 3 nacelle design and would love to see it rendered
You would love a good ass sovereign class.
Or an Oddysey class (my fuckin fav)
Wow, I never thought about that
Miranda's big hull is mostly hanger space and modular component slots. Connies secondary hull has part, but only part, of it's much more massive matter antimatter power system. Then you look at crew compliment, sensors, power output, max warp speed, total shield capacity, and eps (the all important ability to shift power to different systems like weapons) and the Connie is clearly a heavy cruiser while the Miranda is a light utility cruiser. This is like comparing a cargo container ship to a guided missile cruiser.
Not quite. Container ships don't have any weapons, the Miranda clearly does. I think it's more like comparing a warship designed for home waters defence with one designed for global power projection. They might be similar in terms of armaments but one is optimised for extended long range operation and the other isn't.
good vid and andrea's theme is easily one of MacLeod's best songs~~~
Ah its easier to know the reliant is more powerful cause Spock says she can still out run us and outgun us. Also the whole roll bar is one big torpedo launcher. The roll bar is filled with torpedoes in a clip like fashion (kind of like how a clip supplies rounds in automatic) so it almost never runs out of torpedoes. That is why Admerial Kirk needed the nebula to even the odds. Hence Spocks classic line of "sauce for the goose Mr.Savik the odds will be even"!
It outruns and guns the Enterprise after a sneak attack that does severe damage to the Enterprise.
Nice, I am starting to appreciate the Reliant more and more.
What's going on with Pacific 201, got an ETA yet?
I would love to see a comparison between the Romulan D'deridex Warbird and the Vulcan D'kyr type Cruiser, and how that might inform us of the shared Vulcan / Romulan mindset and Engineering priorities or technology needs.
Love this stuff. Would also be interested to compare square footage of deck space. I suspect you'd find a similar size difference.
Oh, and for that matter - a fun video might be taking "slices" of the 3D models to represent the decks, and laying them out on one plane to illustrate just how much deck space the ship ship would have. You could do that as a follow up to this video showing Enterprise VS Reliant, or compare the Enterprise to the Voyager, which is of comparable dimensions but has much more internal volume.
A lot of crap being thrown at the Miranda for being in service for 80 years. Saying, “Aw that was entirely because of the shows budget”.
Well, remember that the B-52 bomber will be exceeding 80 years of service before too long and it’s still in service for many of the same canon reasons that the Miranda is still in service.
Reliable, versatile, cheap to maintain
I would love to see the internal volume numbers on some other SciFi ships, especially Halo or Star Wars. It would be cool to see how many square meters each crew member on Behemoths like the UNSC Infinity or the Death Star had.
The *UNSC Infinity* at 5 clicks long has a crew of 18,200 with a armored Titanium-A3 Battleplate equiped hull approx 5 meters thick.
As for a *CSO-Class Supercarrier* with a hull length at almost 40 meters shy of 29 clicks and unknown hull thickness although a single fictional composition-12 explosive pack can punch through the nanolaminate material of a CCS-Class Battlecruiser so maybe a meter and a half thick. Given that the CAS-Class Assault Carrier is roughly the same size as the Infinity multiply 18,200 by 5.8 and you get a suggested crew complement of 105,560 crewmembers and the ability to deploy a small battalion or two.
As for the Death Star... welp...
Very interesting. With the way the Miranda is laid out, I would assume that it fulfills a very different purpose to the Constitution, and might have less habitable, or "usable" space inside. It has 2 shuttlebays, which knocks down its internal volume quite a bit, along with a rollbar/launcher that is likely completely uninhabitable. Furthermore, it must have an engineering section of comparable size to the Constitution, and some kind of deflector array, along with a myriad of sensors & other equipment.
Mirandas shown during the 24th century typically have significantly smaller crews, so it's possible that much of the ship is automated.
The rollbar is accessible via Jefferies tubes.
But the Enterprise will always be the biggest one in our hearts :)