Yep. VERY interesting. It's so f*ing obvious, but... never thought about it before. Whoever showed you this, give him an award, please. A guy called Bassbert Einstein...
Thanks for this, I wasn't aware you could do that in Vital! I tried a quick recreation with a saw wave, an noticed something interesting after exporting the wav and loading in Serum. I looked at the wave in the wavetable editor, and I noticed that the fundamental was changing in amplitude as I was scrolling through the frames. I wouldn't expect that to happen, my guess is maybe it's due to some volume normalization of the entire waveform as opposed to preserving the amplitude of each harmonic?
well my viewer didn't actually send the wavetable, the one that I use is part of my basstables pack on my gumroad but that's not the wavetable they used...
You can't know everything other wise making music would be boring. It's good to learn from others for they have invented techniques we might never think of. Good video 👍
I have been embedding my filtering in my wavetables for a while. in vital you can put on a filter modifier in the wavetable editor and set the keyframes to have different cutoff values. this doesn't introduce phase shift since the individual harmonics are beind filtered.
@@peteredsbacker4513 this might also work. but i like the option to fine tune the keyframe interpolations with the modifier since you can also dynamically change the cutoff slope. also a quick tip, you can have multiple layers of "waves" in the wavetable editor. you can create a seperate phase shift & filtering for the fundamental sine wave, create a slow filter for the mid layer and have a fast filter for the transient layer and so on... might put a vital preset in the discord for you guys to experiment
Hmm, for speed, i think the serum resample to oscilator a/b is a bar by default, so if you set all your automation to be a bar in length it should get everything in one go!
Can't you all but eliminate phase shifting by locking your filter and oscillator(s) to note length or a specific count length? Seems like it would be a much simpler approach but I'm not all that familiar with Serum either. Another thought just because you were monkeying with higher bpms and run a secondary sub/sine osc, you might want to consider that at higher speeds large format woofers and many split phase cabinets are far less capable of reproducing that accurately so it turns to blended mush. At higher bpms I like to contain my sub routine and extend it to cover quarter notes while highpassing out the bottom of my mid section. You keep the throaty pulse and let the woofer/cabinet still effectively do its work.
You could probably calculate the phase shift given by that filter and compensate in MIDI by altering note length but there are some annoyances with that workflow too. First of all the note length will depend on settings like the filter type used, the shape of the envelope & the lowest frequency the filter reaches. This means that there is no standard and you have to check every time what the exact length should be. with the wavetabble basslines you can get away with leaving the note length the whole 16th note long & using envelopes to controll the "length" of the note by altering volume over time (like I do in the 2 LFO's used for volume). I don't think one workflow is universally better than another, they will all have issues but I do really like this envelope idea... In regards to the second part, that was merely an example of what the bass can do, not so much how good/bad the sub is at 200 BPM. this is also a BPM I rarely ever produce at so I haven't heard this sub bass behavior yet. Either way doing a seperate long sub for them seems interesting...
@@Projektor_music I like the method you are developing seems to react smoothly overall, was just looking at a simpler approach but that might be a more Ableton/Operator specific methodology with locking oscillators and filters. I don't suspect it would work super well with hardware, unless you have custom lfo routing ability. I also like the use of LFO with a strong filter to set the note length, especially if you can utilize custom lfo shapes. The sub bass thing is just something I picked up on back when I was still performing live and producing a whole lot more actively. After around 170ish bpms the 16th notes versus large format woofers (especially, but also ported boxes like car stereos) the lowest frequencies suffer a lot due to mechanical limitations. Thanks for the channel though, could rarely find people that really wanted to set their brains into the technical aspects of production back when I was really getting after it. Pretty cool random find as I start to relearn my daw and hardware a solid decade later. Keep on cracking at it.
I'm a bit on InfraSchall's side here. These kinda techniques are complicated and don't save much. if anything they waste time that could have been spent making a memorable tune, regardless of the genre. But it's still good that you made this video. I recently watched a similiar one where Au5 showed a technique that enables filter modulations without pitch drifts to get a cleaner signal. These kinda videos are a great inspiration for us audio developers, because we take those ideas and try to make them more approachable with good workflows in our software releases
the point of the technique is to do this at the end of the writing process once you already have a memorable tune, and you want to improve it by redoing the bassline... If you already like the bass, there would be no need to replace it but if the pitch drift causes you issues, this is how to fix it...
@@Projektor_music i hope it works like that for some. i personally always forget some aspects of music production when i have to focus on others, especially when it's just technical setup instead of creative decisions. i'm glad you already solved the problem to need a complex layer of automated grains. but i could imagine a future where you can let that happen in the instrument plugin directly, in the background, while tweaking the synth, so it's not a destructive process anymore
wow this is genius haha :D great video. Props to the guy who shared this idea.
thanks! I'm glad you like the vid & the technique!
Personally I'd use a synthesiser like IL Harmor or NI Razor. Filters in these synths don't adjust phase due them using Additive Synthesis.
That may also be a solution...
Brilliant idea. ❤
Thanks!
Genius
Thanks!
that was interesting!
Yep. VERY interesting. It's so f*ing obvious, but... never thought about it before.
Whoever showed you this, give him an award, please.
A guy called Bassbert Einstein...
Thanks for this, I wasn't aware you could do that in Vital! I tried a quick recreation with a saw wave, an noticed something interesting after exporting the wav and loading in Serum. I looked at the wave in the wavetable editor, and I noticed that the fundamental was changing in amplitude as I was scrolling through the frames. I wouldn't expect that to happen, my guess is maybe it's due to some volume normalization of the entire waveform as opposed to preserving the amplitude of each harmonic?
yeah that can be true. I'd need o look into that...
This is very cool! Is the wavetable your viewer send you downloadable?
well my viewer didn't actually send the wavetable, the one that I use is part of my basstables pack on my gumroad but that's not the wavetable they used...
You can't know everything other wise making music would be boring. It's good to learn from others for they have invented techniques we might never think of. Good video 👍
Thank you!
I have been embedding my filtering in my wavetables for a while. in vital you can put on a filter modifier in the wavetable editor and set the keyframes to have different cutoff values. this doesn't introduce phase shift since the individual harmonics are beind filtered.
I'm always commenting before finishing the video
ahahah nice. It's like we think on the same frequency lol
What about the LP filter in Vitals left wavetable fx slot? That ought to work in spectral realm too? Thinking of faster workflow
@@peteredsbacker4513 this might also work. but i like the option to fine tune the keyframe interpolations with the modifier since you can also dynamically change the cutoff slope. also a quick tip, you can have multiple layers of "waves" in the wavetable editor. you can create a seperate phase shift & filtering for the fundamental sine wave, create a slow filter for the mid layer and have a fast filter for the transient layer and so on... might put a vital preset in the discord for you guys to experiment
@@peteredsbacker4513 maybe yeah. I guess I'll have to make another one of these videos then...
Hmm, for speed, i think the serum resample to oscilator a/b is a bar by default, so if you set all your automation to be a bar in length it should get everything in one go!
You will render the phaseshift from the minimumphase filter aswell tho completely eleminating the point of the entire technique.
we can't use serum, we want a no phase shift version of the filter inprinted in the wavetable...
Can't you all but eliminate phase shifting by locking your filter and oscillator(s) to note length or a specific count length? Seems like it would be a much simpler approach but I'm not all that familiar with Serum either.
Another thought just because you were monkeying with higher bpms and run a secondary sub/sine osc, you might want to consider that at higher speeds large format woofers and many split phase cabinets are far less capable of reproducing that accurately so it turns to blended mush.
At higher bpms I like to contain my sub routine and extend it to cover quarter notes while highpassing out the bottom of my mid section. You keep the throaty pulse and let the woofer/cabinet still effectively do its work.
You could probably calculate the phase shift given by that filter and compensate in MIDI by altering note length but there are some annoyances with that workflow too. First of all the note length will depend on settings like the filter type used, the shape of the envelope & the lowest frequency the filter reaches. This means that there is no standard and you have to check every time what the exact length should be. with the wavetabble basslines you can get away with leaving the note length the whole 16th note long & using envelopes to controll the "length" of the note by altering volume over time (like I do in the 2 LFO's used for volume). I don't think one workflow is universally better than another, they will all have issues but I do really like this envelope idea...
In regards to the second part, that was merely an example of what the bass can do, not so much how good/bad the sub is at 200 BPM. this is also a BPM I rarely ever produce at so I haven't heard this sub bass behavior yet. Either way doing a seperate long sub for them seems interesting...
@@Projektor_music I like the method you are developing seems to react smoothly overall, was just looking at a simpler approach but that might be a more Ableton/Operator specific methodology with locking oscillators and filters. I don't suspect it would work super well with hardware, unless you have custom lfo routing ability.
I also like the use of LFO with a strong filter to set the note length, especially if you can utilize custom lfo shapes.
The sub bass thing is just something I picked up on back when I was still performing live and producing a whole lot more actively. After around 170ish bpms the 16th notes versus large format woofers (especially, but also ported boxes like car stereos) the lowest frequencies suffer a lot due to mechanical limitations.
Thanks for the channel though, could rarely find people that really wanted to set their brains into the technical aspects of production back when I was really getting after it. Pretty cool random find as I start to relearn my daw and hardware a solid decade later. Keep on cracking at it.
I'm a bit on InfraSchall's side here. These kinda techniques are complicated and don't save much. if anything they waste time that could have been spent making a memorable tune, regardless of the genre. But it's still good that you made this video. I recently watched a similiar one where Au5 showed a technique that enables filter modulations without pitch drifts to get a cleaner signal. These kinda videos are a great inspiration for us audio developers, because we take those ideas and try to make them more approachable with good workflows in our software releases
the point of the technique is to do this at the end of the writing process once you already have a memorable tune, and you want to improve it by redoing the bassline... If you already like the bass, there would be no need to replace it but if the pitch drift causes you issues, this is how to fix it...
@@Projektor_music i hope it works like that for some. i personally always forget some aspects of music production when i have to focus on others, especially when it's just technical setup instead of creative decisions. i'm glad you already solved the problem to need a complex layer of automated grains. but i could imagine a future where you can let that happen in the instrument plugin directly, in the background, while tweaking the synth, so it's not a destructive process anymore
was waiting for this one, 12 hours too early lmao