ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 1 ต.ค. 2024
- G27，AP2＋ Cockpit frame，FREX Shifter set including H-SHIFTER,SEQUENTIAL SHIFTER & HAND BRAKE, FREX SIM-CLUTCH+ mod installed on G27 clutch pedal, WIPER & LIGHT CONTROL BAR mounted both side of the wheel & a real function steering wheel horn button .
The H-shifter & handbrake are wired on G27 KEYPAD PCB, The Sequential Shifter, Horn button, Wiper & light control bar are connect to a D.I.Y. control panel box & device hubs . Control panel box provided RA quick tune function.
This modify let G27 user can use all function in GT5 no need to hold a DS3 game pad in hand anymore.
The only thing I hate about Gran Turismo.. is the act the fact that every car sounds like a vacuum cleaner :/
All this junk and at the end of the day its still a G27 wheel and pedals. Get some Fanatec load cells and a Fanatec wheel and then maybe all the extra crap added to it will be worth it. Your basic car control is much more important than wipers, lights and menu nav etc.
Thanks for the drive home..much do i owe you burrrp.
NICE SET UP. What are the procedures to adding a larger wheel, without loosing force feed back? Thumbs up.
You need to get on Iracing dude. Shits all over Gran Turismo....
DUUUDE tha's amazing
love it thumbs up
Skip to 3:05 to see driving
Great job mate. I've been checking your progress for a while but this is the first time I come across it directly in TH-cam and first time I am seeing the comments. I cannot believe the amount of haters here. I'm pretty interested in the Frex clutch. Does it make it feel like a real car's clutch?
@biben0610 Thanks. I don't know of any sim software that gives that type of fidelity for the clutch. Half of them don't even seem to care if you use the clutch or not. What I meant was just if the Sim-Clutch+ does reproduce the clutch spring action feel?
Hey Biben0610, I had a g27 too and bought the sim game Iracing for a year (membership) I dont do it anymore, Maybe you wanna try it out on my account?
Gr,
Laurens
You need that option to connect the 3 PS3´s
Or does your PS3 have 3 HDMI ports?
I did it a few days ago. Watch my channel!
Dude that's an awesome rig you have there, but all that to play that shitty game? GT doesn't have the option to drive with clutch and like that will never be a real sim rig.
If you can build a pc a play real simulators like Iracing or Asseto corsa.
But again that's a very good rig, congrats!
it do have the option to drive with clutch idiot its just because noobs like you play with controller and then hates on a SIM
sebbe møller you're so full of shit Hahahaha. You called me a noob and I've been a video game tester for 5 years, so I know what I'm saying. Gt DOES NOT have the option to turn on clutch and it doesn't matter if you play with a pad or a wheel, so don't come here pretending to be a smartass cause you're not hahaha.
I can see the only car game you know is this piece of shit Sony game or maybe nfs? Hahaha, asshole!
artecar017 C'mon Deal with it
sebbe møller can't argue enough? Lol
artecar017
You are such a fucking dumb ass. That's probably why you're a game tester.
You need 3 PS3 systems, 3 screens, 3 GT5 discs and a HUB. MOTHER OF GOD!
@ken521p 電工野我唔曉，有冇試過攞番去原廠或者出去比人攪？Logitech 唯一一次攪到我人標煙係當年出GTFP，第一次買，玩玩下LOCK死左180度，轉唔到900度，換左之後收埋冇玩，再開出黎過左保養，一玩就連個啤令都散埋，成個軚卡死左。 不過其他所有羅記軚都依家都仲健在。第三個GTFP 同紅色MOMO 到依家狀態都仲係非常好。G25係要加番D 潤滑油，同磨打弱左D。G27 改左大軚FFB開盡，玩左半年有多，狀態都仲好FIT，你會唔會係成日玩DRIFT ？玩DRIFT 會好傷軚～～T500RS 都好易壞。網上悲劇報告都唔少。短短半年出左三次修正版。FANATEC 又好似出名出事率十分高。所以，其實每個牌子都差不多，講自已彩數～～HA HA
You should've left shifter on right side.
See, that was the problem. I didn't feel like I was having enough fun to justify all the money I was spending, so I quit real racing after a year. Virtual racing may not be real, but it does a great job at removing all the things that suck about real life racing.
Nowadays I mostly settle for just joyriding (at responsible speeds, of course) in my Miata up in the mountains close to where I live. Much cheaper and easier to do on a whim.
Even if you use a more affordable car, racing in real life is a very expensive hobby. First there's the car, then car insurance, taxes, entry fees, fuel, more frequent tire purchases, extra wear and tear on car, etc. Plus you're required to tell your health insurance company about your racing, and then they raise your premiums. The expenses never end.
Having a virtual setup like this is a huge bargain compared to real life racing. I know from personal experience doing autocross.
you must use 3 PS3 and 3 copys of gt5 for 3 screens, right?!
Fanboy? Do you know what you have to do to even play GT5 with 3 screens? You must have 3 PS3s and three copies of GT5. That is just to play 1 game. Sorry man, if I'm gonna go all out to make a racing simulator, the last game I would play on it is GT5. A PC would be much cheaper and much better. I'm a console guy, but the PC has the edge on this one by a long shot.
and you need to do maintenance work to keep your car healthy, it's a huge money to spend. And you also need to count the transportation fee, do you know transfer a car oversea to a race track need how much ? And how about the time? How many day off you need to take a track days on Suzuka for 3 days ? Plus one more thing, even pro racers also need a simulator to do their daily training, not much chance to drive their race car on real track. That's real racing, dude.
I don't know what's the actual meaning of the word "Race" to you....but along to my experience, real world racing need huge money to burn, but if you just mean driving a real car in High speed or drift, and don't care how harmful to you stock car, that's not what I want. Every time you turning or drifting in a corner at high speed ,you actually damaging your car's body frame,engine, suspension , transmission, brake system in certain scale.
@biben0610 if that is the motor and stuff of a g27 then that is a fantastic set up and the windscreen wipers and everything are amazing, I have a g27 also (I have videos of it on my channel) and they are very good. there is nothing wrong with your driving and I understand you were probably holding back a bit on the first lap to avoid any unnecessary offs and crashes. Have fun with that! :)
Anyway ,this video not aim to showing my driving skill obviously.It just to introduce what a gamer possibly can do with GT5 through a modified a G27 wheel controller. If people haven't play or own a G27 & GT5, or didn't care about the control ability of this game & controller set, then they can't understand what this video talking about~: ) and I pretty sure 90% people here didn't. ha ha.
haha it was half wrong....I the description it says sequential shifter. but I was wrong about it being a g25 it does sound pretty quiet and g25s are very loud so it probably is a g27. btw the driving wasn't that bad you just weren't pushing the limit completely. I just watched through the whole video at the end and you did change to full manual. how much did that cost to build anyway?
I made some conclusions after these few hundred comments:
1.Many peoples think that driving real car is anything & nothing bigger then this, whatever what where how they driving.
2.Many peoples think gamer can't drive in real life or vice versa.
3.Many peoples think what they playing are always the best of the best, otherwise is a shit.
4.Many peoples think they always known more then others.
5.Smartass is far much more then the total videos uploaded on youtube !
@itrdc5r Frex sim-Clutch+ originally for the Frex Clutch pedal, I try to mount it on G27 pedal, theoretically works, but need to fix some practical issue. If you asked me about the feeling real or not, it's hard to say, this stuff just emulate the clutch spring diaphragm action feel,but the actual simulation is done by software, so, that's finally depends on the simulator. If you can adjust this sim clutch to match the simulator's clutch meeting point, should be a really good hardware.
@marlo916 Seems you never drive the real NSX-R. The NSX-R is come with Momo Competition 350,Spoke Finish in Black.Black horn ring, silver horn button with Red Honda Logo on top.In this video is Momo Race 350,Spoke finish in Silver,black Horn button with red Honda Logo on top.I don't like the looks of the Competition, so I replace with Race.I'm using quick release,every time I drive home,took out my wheel,plug it on G27,so whatever real or sim still using a same steering wheel.Serious? Maybe ~:p
@adaorlando Thank you! Nice to meet you. : ) This cockpit is continue in develop. The latest mod is equiped NRG 4th generation thin & light weight quick release, and will be hot swap 280mm & 310mm steering wheel for different cars category such as stock car, Super GT ,LMP ,DTM, F1, then install wheel button plate for function usage.
Gas & clutch pedals are replace by full metal piston with specific harder spring . Will upload video next month : )
@xXxlllManHacklllxXx I found that issue when I want to test the G27E, after plug in everything, the wheel haven't power up ,so I check the power source .At first I re-wired the transformer input side,still no power,
Then I open the plug then see the fact...Oh no!! And about the boosted effect, be honest, not so impressive, just boost up around 20% to the original, and the rotating speed when calibrating not as fast as the video demo they show.
@xXxlllManHacklllxXx actually, I already have another G27E, but haven't use in this video, because still haven't receive the large size shift paddles for my 350mm Momo Jet steering wheel. Talk about G27E, when I received it,
I get a big shock when open the box, I found the new transformer come with the mod was a mess. The neutral wired to the ground in the transformer side, and wired with Live together in the plug side, So I'm very worry about the mod of the booster circuit....
how is GT5 a sim when they DIDNT simulate everything, like in car views, car sounds, youre limited to what power adder you can put on your car like you cant S/C your civic, you cant turbo your gallardo, viper, or Vette etc...you run in a wall at 150mph with little to no damages....please explain why if theyre the best sim game, why were IMPORTANT things like these left out
Hey dude, made up your mind please,I playing my game, people said I better get a real car to race, I said the Terms"REAL RACE" not that easy to me. What's the problem? If you can get you happy race with your crappy car, that's fine just go on, don't border me. One more thing, you can't get your head out of your ass, because your ass is your head.
@mad0314 GT5 simulation not as good as some PC sim obviously, but not bad really.
Pick a premium stock car ,using sport hard or other lower grip tyre, turn off all assist include ABS, using clutch & h-shifter, then drive in cockpit view & go winding at Nurburgring ,It's definitely a enjoyable driving game.
@mrtumulo Congratulations! Seems you're living in a "usually perfection country" that's have a left side wipers control vehicle，very good! And about the H shifter, why don't you watch few more minutes before leave your comment? Once again, if you don't like it, just click "unlike", don't waste your time Sir. LOL
@mattetoet Multi-monitor mode must connect at lease 2 Ps3 through a Lan network, maximum connect 5 machine. One single ps3 handle one monitor display. Have 2 multi-monitor mode: 3 monitor & 5 monitor, in 3 monitor mode, the machine ID from left to right is 1-2-3, 2 is the center main screen, in 5 monitor mode, from Left to right is 1-2-3-4-5, 3 is the center main screen.
@2727clos H-SHIFTER, SEQUENTIAL SHIFTER & HAND BRAKE all come from Frex GP. You can direct order From their online shop.But note that, The H-shifter that support G25/G27 are call " H-shifter TypeG", I found that the n-position have few second delay, and Frex still can't get fix this problem . So now Frex pull down this items . You can't found this on Frex store now.
Haha, IKR, when I got my G27, all my friends thought I was crazy to spend that much money on a steering wheel xD
But hey, with money comes quality, once they tried it out, some started saving up for one too xD
One of my friends even wished he got a PS3 instead of an Xbox xD.
I don't know Forza 4 support multi-controller or not.If Forza can using Wheel and game pad or other controller at the same time, than you can use a game pad main board to re-wire the buttoms,make it become a buttons box. I do the same on PS3, I using a Dual shock 3 board to make this control box.
Thank you, but I must say 3ps3 + 3game disc still cheaper then a PC with ability to output 3 high resolution graphic. It just cost around $800, but at these price maybe I just can by a graphic card with a little changes ....building a PC to play multi-monitor must be over 1.5K to me~
@mad0314 Yes, I have try Some PC sim, but I just waiting R-factor 2 release now.
I don't like LFS & I-RACING, although the simulation is good, but I can live with the graphic like this.And I just like driving low power stock car, don't like race car. That's maybe the reason I play GT5 much.
@ProsumeThis And you know what is "PERFECT PEDAL"? "Arc brake mod "?My G27 pedals have been mod became a full metal pedals,it's include a hydraulic pressure sensitive brake pedal and metal piston gas & clutch pedals. T500RS's pedals just a joke ~get rid of it if you're serious.
@TheDeu001 Why do you call somebody a "nolifer" for having a hobby, kid ?
He put the time into it, because he wanted to, it is called a hobby.
And btw, the word "nolifer" is having it's source in the biggest "nolifers" in history, failed Trickshotters. Think about it.
@jealousyearned No no, I think he no jealous, he is a BIG MAN that own a BMW !
I don't know where he go with his BMW, maybe the Ring, maybe Suzuka, maybe SPA, but for me, I just can playing car parking or traffic light stopping everyday with my cheap car in my small little city .So sad...
@mayamanign There is no Frex sim-clutch+ for G27. You only can do some DIY mod to mount it on the G27 Clutch pedal. That's mean you must build the mount by yourself. Message me for you email address, I can give you some photos for reference.
@reallytightpants I choose G27 because the smoother & quiet steering than G25，it's also get more wheel buttons to use. Sequential shifter not a must for me,( even I add one for my G27) I can use shifter paddles to do the same function.
For the price of this thing I'm afraid I just can buy 1 set of wheels or few set of tyres for a real race car. Man, you know, not every car you drive can go for race, unless your car also act as a coffin for yourself.
They can either have it where ha has it, with no teeth so it doesnt lock, or you can have it like McRae did in some of his cars where it comes out of the dash like an upward brake you pull, like Ken Blocks.
NIce rig, the only mistake you made is, in a real race car you pull back to upshift, street cars have it the other way because they (car manufacturers) feel it's more "intuitive" to push up to shift up. but great work otherwise.
@UTubeGreenie You go to wrong place my friend ,this video obviously for Race Gamer, not womanizer .Seems you believe a real car is your only way to impress a lady... sad to hear that, don't give up , my friend.
@ProsumeThis Are you kidding me? T500RS? What a shitty plastic wheel ! Is it T500rs is the best wheel you know in your life ? If yes, Congratulations～！ :目.But for me, the magic words is "typeG-CL", you know what is it?
@gordonfan1095 Don't worry about the image distorted.
A single PS3 connect 1 monitors , all work independence .
The extra monitor just draw extra pictures area ,
just think as open 2 extra windows on the wall.
You're right, because so many car in this game, some are typical street car with manual H-shifter & clutch, some are light mod sport car with sequential shifter and pro race car with pedals shifter.
I strongly recommend you to watch this video carefully again, you will found that your comment is completely wrong (except the bad driving skill), once again, don't too rush to being a smartass pls~:P
@Sandeep9201 And it's not depends on the rim size, it's depends on the 6 bolts ring diameter .You can installs all 6 bolts 70mm PCD steerings on the adapter whatever it's a 280- 350mm wheel : )
@Sandeep9201 You can search "chilicoke" ,he made a momo/sparco or nardi wheel adapter for G25/G27.This let you can install a 6 bolts 70mm PCD(momo/sparco) or 74mm PCD(nardi) steering wheel on your G25.
it's simple - you have the wheel set to 900 degrees of rotation and whatever youre playing is probably expecting closer to 270. cut down the amount of rotation in the logitech software
Who argue right here ? It's obviously & I never denial it. English is my 99th language, no need to guess or investigate like Sherlock Holmes, it can't show how smart you're but...
Oh, many thanks, but I still haven't plan to place a decent pc in my game room at this moment. I just own a low end MPB for my job now. (and I waiting for RF2 full release) : )
@TheDeu001 Ha ha , I'm jealous for your BMW~ And I guessing some of the TOP F1 drivers who playing simulator everyday in their training facilities ,also jealous for your BMW too !
Is that a rhetorical question Tensai, I have the game that's why I can speak on all the flaws so this game needs to fix b4 claiming "the real driving simulator" title
H shiter and clutch always work with GT5 since GT5P.but note that,G27 without a sequential shifter but G25.So G27 user must doing some mod to use Sequential shifter.
@19Bob57 If you can see, obviously I'm driving a STOCK FC RX-7 in TV GAME...So,I don't know what's the point to talking about Real/ Profession Race cars here... Idiot :p
This is incredible. For all those thinking that a real car to track is better, if you got money to burn like that, go right ahead. Refer to posts about insurance, car, wheels, mods, entry fees, etc. This would be a FRACTION of that cost I am sure, and like someone says, you go can go at it day and night. I would be very interested to know how you wired the handbrake and all the other components. I doubt the key is real, (I think it just coincided with choosing the car) but nice touch anyway !
I wasn't saying just lambos,exotic cars,in a cockpit like this,you sorta get the feel. You cant go around corners at the speeds in this game on a street filled with pedestrians,its a racing game. And he probably only paid a grand or less for it,which even if you got a nice car,you cant race it unless you go on a track,which comes to my point again,having a cockpit is more fun,the car you would get is probably slow and such....
xbox fan boy. gt5 is better because forza is a bit more arcade than gt5. gt5yes has crap sounds, but better gameplay better tuning caitaristics. everything counts. better graphics. over 1000 CARS. i know that because in the gaming section on the guinnes book of records (2012) gt5 has the world record for most cars in a video game. forzas cars aint to scale too. gt5 is to perfection. gt5 has photo tech suroundings. forza used the good old make an almost excact rep. gt5 = more realistic.
What a great bit of kit. I was totally addicted to GT, for a long time and would have loved a set up like yours.
Best I had was two 6' x 4' screens with linked consoles playing GT3 through two projectors - like life size. 14 of us (all well skilled and mega competitive) had an 18 hour session. All aged between 19 and 42. What a blast it was. Shame we had to give the gear back to the AV company the next day.
Haters have low self esteem issues. They speak and expose it to the world. Laugh!
Play Forza instead of GT5! GT5 is crap! Play a good game, not this crap!
Seriously, what's wrong with people? Do they really feel the need to show how stupid they are publicly? What's the point of making such stupid comments? Or better, what's the point of commenting on a video you don't even like at all?
He likes GT5, he has the money to put on a complete cockpit set and that's what he did. Get over it and if you don't like it, just don't watch it.
dude what the fuck? rfactor and live for speed are the borringest game out there, its not that realistic or fun to say the least.And besides, i bet your game can't handle all the fuctions of a steering wheel setup like that, no multiple monitors, no proper controller h shifter settings. Dude, i have played all kinds of racing games you name it, and i think your comment is just weird...
@NZJacobNZ We don't play these games to drive a honda civic around in the streets. We play these games to drive exotic and modded out whips. Trust me it's not so easy to buy a multimillion dollar vehicle and have a high speed race with 15 other racers on the street. Trust, you can do things in these games you only wish you could in real life. Because trying to top speed a ferrari or bugatti in real life would eventually result in death for 90 % of drivers.
@biben0610 (cont.) I Am jealous, that is very cool, I have loved cars all my life, played GT3, GT4, and now GT5, and loved them all.. Someday, when I am on my own, maybe you can teach me this setup, if i have money to spend on it. but for now i just get to watch others have the fun, but that's okay, because to some extent its fun for me i guess :P
dont take this 'note' wrong, im just saying realize what u have (not that you dont). I am not trying to have your pity.. just think of how lucky u r..
@biben0610 Comment to the Creator of this video. There is a reason to hold a DS3 game pad. Some people don't have the money.... Like me, i live in poverty and that is all i can afford. And because i know you are going to ask me how i have a PS3 if i live in poverty? Even though i am 14, i have a job and i save what i can, plus, my mom pay's taxes through the year and got around $1,000 (U.S) last year, and helped me get it. I have 4 Games, 2 controllers and a cheapo mic... consider yourself lucky
I have R-factor 2 beta life time license, but not often play it, the UI too complex. Just waiting the final release. and this mod is for PS3 & PC compatible.
I thinking why people could think that peoples can't have a car to drive in real life - once they playing video game/ simulator at home....can you tell me why? : )
@itrdc5r Yes, the Frex sim clutch + is reproduce the clutch spring action feel. But you need to adjust the meeting point position to fit the simulator setting.
Amazing man All that time and effort was a complete success. Good job man. Only you can add the speedometer and the gas meter. lol. good job. I want one lol.
I'm looking for the sim clutch plus on Frex's site for the G27 pedals but can't find it. Can you help? I would love to buy this. Thanks and great cockpit.
Actually, it's not a honda wheel, it's a Momo Race 350mm steering wheel with a honda horn button.As you said, Horn button is really cheap & easy to find.
@itrdc5r about the haters,I don't think they really hate this, they just need a stage for them to play smart, and I provide a chance to them for free.
@AJAY606 Frex H-shift typeG is native support G27, Shift+ & Handb+ just a simple on/off switch device, simple wire on G27 shifter PCB to make it work. :)
@iirmantass3 I added quick release for wheels warping between 280mm, 310mm & 350mm. Next add wheel buttons plate for 280 & 310 to get complete control.
How do you get such sharp steering? In my setup you have to turn the wheel so much to get it to steer in either direction and it really throws off my game. It is to the point that I reverted back to using the controller. The car I drive in real life is 1.8 turns lock to lock, so I cannot get for the life of me why a racing wheel would be 3.5 turns lock to lock.
How do you know if GT5 it's unrealistic or not and Live For Speed is? Better yet, i've even played that game a while ago, arcade turning and turn hard enough and you flip or drift perfectly with ease, it was the most unrealistic simulator I have ever played, Mario Kart was way better than that, and it's an arcade!!
Dude fuck em haters!!! although I would never do anything like this, I look up to you and im inspired by your passion for this game, so what its not as simulated as live for speed or rfactor?? at the end of the day YOU love this game, and if other people dont like it then its their problem lol, I love this game to death!! Im gonna buy a G27 for it
Ive played iRacing, and it is pretty realistic FOR RACE-CARS. Not for street cars. If I want to play/drive/drift/race with street cars, Go play LFS, if u want good graphics and a variety of cars to drive, play GT5. Each game is suited for a different situation. In my personal opinion. LFS is the best because of the drifting physics.
I couldn't see you putting down the Clutch.
Why do you put up such an AWESOME cockpit, and then use the auto-clutch.
That shit is lame bro.
if you got enough patient to saw this video , I think you can see the H shifter being used.
but maybe the skill will let you down again.ha ha
awesome stuff. i have no idea how to connect 3 monitors with the ps3. how??????????????now all you need is some lsd, and welcome to the gt matrix
I got really addicted to Assetto Corsa recently, so now i'm in a progress of full cockpit refurbishment. New seat, better pedal position, th8rs shifter ordered and i would also get a 300mm wheel, but they're all expensive. All for that perfect F40 experience. GT5 is a joke compared to AC.
I use a G25 steering wheel. It isn't speed, I can be doing 25 and I still need to steer almost a full rotation to make a mildly sharp corner. It is like I am driving a Camry or something in a parking lot. So when racing I am constantly just spinning the wheel around left and right.
what makes gta5 better than forza 4? please explain to me.
the games are wery similar only some benefits and downsides, they are not that big different that many thinks. if you wan't to compare it fair, compare forza 3 whit GT5.
forza 4 vs GT5 is a easy match for forza.
playing video games is for fun, thats so you dont need to be a racer. if he has the money to spend for it why not? get over it dude some people just have alot more money and time to spare than you do, you making a comment like that just makes you sound bitter...
great way to teach your kids how to drive WITHOUT the speeding tickets, dents, scratches, dead hookers, having to be in the same car, life flashes, and of corse its much more safer.
so next time your kid asks to take the car out give him the keys to a safe car.
@REPOMAN24722 It's stupid that you want to tell other people how to spend their money and their time.
It's stupid to make your only car a street racing car and spend thousands of dollars to improve it then when it breaks you're fucked because is your only car. How are you going to work?
@NZJacobNZ Why people always think playing video game = won't have a car ?? Did your mother just allow you to choose one of these two ?
@Bansheeflyr I didn't meant to break your heart , boy. Just click on the "unlike" tab then find some other video can make you feel good.LOL
Maybe it's because lots of companies have been making realistic cockpit kits for home use on the PC (for racing sims like Rfactor, LFS, or iRacing), and very few have developed such a kit for use for the PS3 (for racing games like GT5).
i like the multi screen,and the handbrake,gated shifter is useless unless its a 7 speed,but i prefer the paddle shifter because it covers everything you need,but nice rig anyhow.all ihave is a driving force gt and a table...lol,but it gets the job done
i dare you to try to drift in nfs shift
it's impossible! btw, the fact that it's harder just shows that it's more realistc (or you are just used to drifting in gt5). it also have a lot to say what car you use and how it's tuned in forza :)
i have both and gt5 is better for racing cause no offence but in forza you just get a pile a 10 year olds thinking a stock ferrari can beat a 1969 dodge charger tuned for drag racing in a 1/4 drag in gt5 we know we ain't as stupid
Thats a very neat setup you got there! but can I ask, does changing the gear shifter itself effect the performance as I guess you still have it hooked up to the logitech hardware? For example, does it weaken it in any way,shape or form? Thanks