This is absolutely mesmerizing. These sounds genuinely make me want to cry from their beauty, thank you so much for making me discover this new world !
what an incredible piece of music you've recorded. made my ears and brain so happy and tingly. so much frisson and shivers felt in listening to this talented, emotional arrangement. gratuitous thanks for creating and sharing that, and the musical insights.
Of course, JI fits more accurately since most of the instruments/voice are the bunch of harmonic series. And I like the way you approaching about scales and its history with that. People often think or talk about the downside of JI, but JI is the purest form of music, undeniable concept, and even (the first) definition of music. Good stuff! thank you for your video.
Very profound discovery, thanks for sharing. This makes me think that since harmonics go up in octaves quite fast, and since we humans can only hear so much of the spectrum, it follows that chords (or just notes even) will sound richer (or muddier) on the lower octaves, since the harmonics of these lower notes can still be heard by our ears. This must be what makes chords in the higher octaves "cleaner". (In the piano in particular I know there is some pseudo-octave shenanigans going on as well. I understand that's not the case with electric pianos or keyboards though, so what I just said still applies here.)
fantastic and rich musical explorations as always Jack!! So comprehensive and clear in your explanation as well as inspiring creative work with these fascinating ideas.
Ok, this video is amazing, but that editing at 3:27 was so confusing. Would’ve been better as a static image, with the yellow sections getting added with each note
i didn't agree with george russell's lydian chromatic concept because of its over-use of the 3-limit and 3:2 stack to prescriptively explain modern harmony, ignoring the important role higher complexity primes plays in the blues, the functional harmonic-melodic concepts of ornette coleman, coltrane, and the arrangements of duke, basie, mingus, et al... especially the 7 and 11 limit. i think this video is a crucial first step that, if i may, exposits LCCOTO as what it should have really been about. more of this please!
I'd argue that that the artificial prescriptiveness is actually introduced with the concept of prime limit. The second harmonic gives us the tools to conceptualize pitch space as cyclic, and the third harmonic gives us the tools to conceptualize of tonal gravity within that pitch space, but the rest of the primes are really more a function of color and texture we approximate with our ears. There are meaningful timbral, harmonic, and melodic ways ways in which we will always be processing music in relation to twoness and threeness when we are trying to orient ourselves within the gestalt of any timbre, harmony, or melody. The concept of prime limit on the face of it is built on this farcically prescriptive idea that we are magically factoring ratios and figuring our percent badness in our heads rather than just orienting ourselves around the most fundamental tonal compass of the second and third harmonics and using our wholistic experience of the feeling timbre, harmony, and melody within the piece as it relates to that compass to help figure out the prime colored quality that any scale you are hearing might have. Prime limit teaches people to think about JI in such a limiting, destructive way; where just because there are more intervals closer together as you go to higher primes means you could never hope to "hear" each the intervals those higher prime's have to offer. You can hear the unique character of any prime through the context it is surrounded by, and there are just like, completely undeniable ways where, no matter how you slice it, that that context is judged in relation to the second and third harmonics, namely this Lydian tonal gravity. The only reason you think this [seminal work of descriptive tonal theory for modal music] is super prescriptive and imposing 3ness on the rest of the primes is because your entire basis for talking about and conceptualizing of JI is wildly prescriptive and founded on fundamentally irrational assumptions about how we hear color in sound that were made out of convenience rather than empiricism.
Since the Archytas Diatonic is based on the overtones 9, 8, 7, 27, of Bb and Eb in this case, to add the 10th overtone of Bb, D, to the C phrygian scale as a passing note works really well.
Hey! Love the video! just curious do you have a why good book recommendations about this kind of harmony besides the obvious George Russel Walter Mathieu ?
Andrew Barker is the main book on Ancient Greek musicology, but it’s quite difficult to read and interpret. Working on coauthoring a book with Jonathan Kay that expands on Mathieus approach and makes Ancient Greek musicology accessible
Cool stuff, most xenharmonic stuff is made with electronic instruments. Piano tends to really bring out the differences between tunings. Do you listen to any other microtonal artists?
Agreed the rich overtones on piano help to accentuate the subtleties of tuning differences. Some artists I like are Wendy Carlos Zhea Erose Micheal Harrison Ellen Arkbro
Wow, Archytas’s pyramid is such a nice thing! 🔥 Also, could you elaborate about how 7:6 and 8:7 are arithmetic and harmonic means related to 4:3? Not clear to me yet.
BTW I think scale interval charts like the one at 7:50 can be made a bit more instructive by using different colors (likely pastel or just bright ones) for each of the intervals instead of white, like make 3:2 pink, 4:3 lime or something in that vein. That way, people with color blindness will still have no issues (compared to outright replacing ratio brackets with colored arcs, which was my first idea) and color would add more discernability for those who can work with it (as the diagram is by necessity very dense graphically).
If we combine the ratios 8/7 and 7/6 we get 4/3. So they are the arithmetic and harmonic divisions of the 4th in the same way that the major and minor thirds are the divisions of the 5th. I should make a video on this and on Archytas pyramid in detail
No only here for now… been too busy to make all our music available. But we have a short album done you can find it as the highlight video on the channel page
@@SocraticSwansongs really cool video. The last two years I’ve really been going down the alternate tuning rabbit hole. I’ll check out some more of your videos whenever I can find the time.
![[LIVE] : ONE ลุมพินี 88 | คู่เอก "ป้อมเพชร vs อัสลามจอน"](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/1ZqTVVbMgbo/mqdefault.jpg)
Wow, this is fantastic work! The ending was such a treat.
Thank you so much!
This is absolutely mesmerizing. These sounds genuinely make me want to cry from their beauty, thank you so much for making me discover this new world !
🙏🏻
what an incredible piece of music you've recorded. made my ears and brain so happy and tingly. so much frisson and shivers felt in listening to this talented, emotional arrangement. gratuitous thanks for creating and sharing that, and the musical insights.
Thank you!!! So glad you enjoyed it :)
Of course, JI fits more accurately since most of the instruments/voice are the bunch of harmonic series. And I like the way you approaching about scales and its history with that. People often think or talk about the downside of JI, but JI is the purest form of music, undeniable concept, and even (the first) definition of music. Good stuff! thank you for your video.
Very profound discovery, thanks for sharing. This makes me think that since harmonics go up in octaves quite fast, and since we humans can only hear so much of the spectrum, it follows that chords (or just notes even) will sound richer (or muddier) on the lower octaves, since the harmonics of these lower notes can still be heard by our ears.
This must be what makes chords in the higher octaves "cleaner".
(In the piano in particular I know there is some pseudo-octave shenanigans going on as well. I understand that's not the case with electric pianos or keyboards though, so what I just said still applies here.)
Exactly right! That’s a central part of chord voicing in orchestration. Mixing and overlapping some harmonics and avoiding the muddy ones
fantastic and rich musical explorations as always Jack!! So comprehensive and clear in your explanation as well as inspiring creative work with these fascinating ideas.
Ok, this video is amazing, but that editing at 3:27 was so confusing. Would’ve been better as a static image, with the yellow sections getting added with each note
Haha 😂 yeah that was extra
Really beautiful. So much feelling.
i didn't agree with george russell's lydian chromatic concept because of its over-use of the 3-limit and 3:2 stack to prescriptively explain modern harmony, ignoring the important role higher complexity primes plays in the blues, the functional harmonic-melodic concepts of ornette coleman, coltrane, and the arrangements of duke, basie, mingus, et al... especially the 7 and 11 limit.
i think this video is a crucial first step that, if i may, exposits LCCOTO as what it should have really been about.
more of this please!
🙏🏻
I'd argue that that the artificial prescriptiveness is actually introduced with the concept of prime limit. The second harmonic gives us the tools to conceptualize pitch space as cyclic, and the third harmonic gives us the tools to conceptualize of tonal gravity within that pitch space, but the rest of the primes are really more a function of color and texture we approximate with our ears. There are meaningful timbral, harmonic, and melodic ways ways in which we will always be processing music in relation to twoness and threeness when we are trying to orient ourselves within the gestalt of any timbre, harmony, or melody. The concept of prime limit on the face of it is built on this farcically prescriptive idea that we are magically factoring ratios and figuring our percent badness in our heads rather than just orienting ourselves around the most fundamental tonal compass of the second and third harmonics and using our wholistic experience of the feeling timbre, harmony, and melody within the piece as it relates to that compass to help figure out the prime colored quality that any scale you are hearing might have. Prime limit teaches people to think about JI in such a limiting, destructive way; where just because there are more intervals closer together as you go to higher primes means you could never hope to "hear" each the intervals those higher prime's have to offer. You can hear the unique character of any prime through the context it is surrounded by, and there are just like, completely undeniable ways where, no matter how you slice it, that that context is judged in relation to the second and third harmonics, namely this Lydian tonal gravity. The only reason you think this [seminal work of descriptive tonal theory for modal music] is super prescriptive and imposing 3ness on the rest of the primes is because your entire basis for talking about and conceptualizing of JI is wildly prescriptive and founded on fundamentally irrational assumptions about how we hear color in sound that were made out of convenience rather than empiricism.
George Russell isn't imposing threeness and twoness onto you, their position in the harmonic series is
I've been using this Greek concept for forty years. I have a lot of experience with these ideas.
Since the Archytas Diatonic is based on the overtones 9, 8, 7, 27, of Bb and Eb in this case, to add the 10th overtone of Bb, D, to the C phrygian scale as a passing note works really well.
Hey! Love the video! just curious do you have a why good book recommendations about this kind of harmony besides the obvious George Russel Walter Mathieu ?
Andrew Barker is the main book on Ancient Greek musicology, but it’s quite difficult to read and interpret. Working on coauthoring a book with Jonathan Kay that expands on Mathieus approach and makes Ancient Greek musicology accessible
Cool stuff, most xenharmonic stuff is made with electronic instruments. Piano tends to really bring out the differences between tunings. Do you listen to any other microtonal artists?
Agreed the rich overtones on piano help to accentuate the subtleties of tuning differences. Some artists I like are
Wendy Carlos
Zhea Erose
Micheal Harrison
Ellen Arkbro
Wow, Archytas’s pyramid is such a nice thing! 🔥
Also, could you elaborate about how 7:6 and 8:7 are arithmetic and harmonic means related to 4:3? Not clear to me yet.
BTW I think scale interval charts like the one at 7:50 can be made a bit more instructive by using different colors (likely pastel or just bright ones) for each of the intervals instead of white, like make 3:2 pink, 4:3 lime or something in that vein. That way, people with color blindness will still have no issues (compared to outright replacing ratio brackets with colored arcs, which was my first idea) and color would add more discernability for those who can work with it (as the diagram is by necessity very dense graphically).
If we combine the ratios 8/7 and 7/6 we get 4/3. So they are the arithmetic and harmonic divisions of the 4th in the same way that the major and minor thirds are the divisions of the 5th. I should make a video on this and on Archytas pyramid in detail
@@SocraticSwansongs Please do! 👍
4:28 reminds me of decrepit birth - solar impulse chords th-cam.com/video/B-Qnr1gOdpU/w-d-xo.html
Is this song available on iTunes?
the song at the end, I mean
No only here for now… been too busy to make all our music available. But we have a short album done you can find it as the highlight video on the channel page
@@SocraticSwansongs really cool video. The last two years I’ve really been going down the alternate tuning rabbit hole. I’ll check out some more of your videos whenever I can find the time.
@@DeathScyther006awesome thanks friend!