The reason I love your videos is because we are learning how to brew Cider from professional brewers. You usually get that in beer making, but not much in cider making. Most videos on TH-cam right now are just of some guys making cider in their spare time with store bought apple juice. There is nothing wrong with that, but I want to spend my time learning how to make high quality cider from the experts. Keep up the good work lads and hope you do a video on how to make dry-hopped ciders. I'll be trying my first attempt at one this year!
Guys, great video. Love your vibe and interaction. One thing I wanted to mention - I've tried back-sweetening a very straight, simple cider with Stevia and had to discard the entire batch. While it adds non-fermentable sweetness, Stevia is not flavorless and adds a distinctly strange, almost metallic taste to the product. Everyone who tried the back-sweetened portion of that batch detested it and found the dry version very drinkable and far better although some wished for it to be sweeter. For the record, that batch was made with fresh-pressed, unpasteurized cider from a local mill, stilled with potassium metabisulphite to remove wild yeasts and bacteria, fermented with a Champagne yeast to a 6-7% ABV, half back-sweetened with Stevia and half not, then bottled with about 25 gm/gallon of fermentable priming sugar to develop carbonation. Haven't tried Monkfruit, but I've shifted instead to using Red Star's Premier Côte de Blancs yeast to bring up the fruit flavors that the champagne yeast neutralized. It still produces a dry cider but with more fruit flavors coming through, there's more joy. I may try the trick of adding a short measure of sweet cider before serving, or bringing a small pitcher of sweet cider to the table to allow guests to add sweetness to their liking in the future.
Hey guys, just a quick thanks from everyone like me who is just getting into making their own cider. You guys are answering many of the questions that we all have about the necessary steps and processes that go into making a delicious cider. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the video. I haven’t done any home brewing at all yet, but was planning on starting with a cider. The plan now is to back sweeten with concentrated apple juice, with enough concentrate to get a sweet cider, and bottle into plastic bottles. When the bottles become very firm, similar to a store bought drink, I was going to transfer into a cold fridge. If it doesn’t taste terrible, I think I should be able to drink a gallon or 2 of cider in a few weeks, before it gets too carbonated for the bottle :0. I REALLY appreciate that 30-40 grams of sugar tip for the carbonation portion of the process though, thank you.
Wow, thanks guys. I've got some really nice blackberry wine fermenting for the first time at the moment. It's tasting surprisingly amazing by the way. I have two younger brothers who I know are not really wine lovers and much prefer glugging down some cider, or anything that doesn't taste like wine. Your videos have given me a really good insight into making cider or cider, at home. I'm very excited to make a start on it next week and hope not to blow up the kitchen as my wife wont like that. Thank you.
You guys are great! I've got my 1st batch of hard cider in the fermenter (80 liters). I am now onto back-sweetening with non fermentable sugar. You guys say just add to taste, but if I am targeting and semi-dry / semi-sweet product, do you have a "rule of thumb" based on your excellent experience. I'll take whatever metric you are comfortable with ... grams / gallons, liters, etc. ;-) Also, I am using Erythritol (PureVia) as a back-sweetener. Many thanks!
This is a subject that TH-cam is hungry for....I am on my fourth year of pressing and fermenting my own home brew cider and I’ve learned everything from the internet. I have had a great batch, a bad batch and an okay batch. The best batch I ever made was quite complicated but everyone loved it, myself included. I heard all the warnings about pasteurizing pressurized bottles and went for it anyways. I back sweetened my dry cider with my own pressed apple juice and filled a plastic bottle up to gauge how carbonated the bottles were before I pasteurized them in a water bath. I had no bottles blow up on me even though I was nervous the whole time, and no bottles were over/under carbonated. It was perfect, the cider was mildly sweet with a wonderful apple taste. I want to do it again this year but still feel nervous about the water bath pasteurizing. Is this the only way to home brew a pure apple juice sweet cider or is there something I am missing?
Congratulations on making a great cider! Water bath pasteuring can work well - but you should wear protective gear and it is best to gradually heat up the bottles. A sudden change in temperature is more likely to cause breakage. Regular crown caps typically hold up in a pasteurization bath. Stronger bottles such as champagne bottles limit breakage. A differential of 50 degrees or more will probably result in some breakage. If you want to use natural juice with fermentable sugar to back-sweeten and you want carbonation, you will need to pasteurize after packaging. The only alternative is to force-carbonate the product using a kegging system or brite tank. When you force-carbonate you can stabalize the back-sweetened cider with sorbate and sulfite before pasteurizing.
Should I let the nom fermentable sugar sit for a little bit before I bottle and carbonize? Also can I add the NF sugar straight to my carboy that has my cider?
Very instructive video. Thank you for doing it. I want to let my hard cider age and clarify so I am doing a second fermentation of a few weeks. Will there be enough live yeast left after 4-6 weeks of second fermementation to get some carbonation?
Yes, there will almost certainly be enough live yeast. It is very rare that you do not have viable live yeast at that point. Some people pitch a small amount of additional yeast for carbonation, which you could do as well if you like. Good luck!
Hello! Thank you very much for the video. I have a question. I remember that Stevia presentations have some sucrose to give it volume in the sachet, which normally weigh 1g. However, regarding the weight and composition of commercial stevias, won't they modify the CO2 production due to that small amount of fermentable sugar? We want to make a semi-sweet cider with carbonation but we want to put it in a barrel but we don't want to pasteurize it either and we are going to forcefully carbonate it. Will we have problems with that small part of fermentable sugar when we put it in the barrel and sweeten it with commercial stevia? Will I have to modify the C02 pressure? Thank you very much.
If you're adding the stevia in the barrel, I would wait a few days to make sure any fermentable sugar ferments out. If it starts fermenting, you should consider waiting until that re-fermentation subsides. Know that a force carbonated product that is not pasteurized will still undergo a malo-lactic fermentation in the keg if you give it enough time. The longer you take to finish the keg (in terms of months) the more likely malo-lactic fermentation builds up pressure and potentially disrupts your pouring.
I have not made cider yet, but this is a very informative video, thank you. I am not sure I want to go down the road of bottling my cider with a natural carbonation. I remember making beer with my dad 35 years ago and loosing a whole case after one bottle blew and caused a chain reaction. (What a mess). I am curious if I were to pasteurize or sulfite my cider could I not just carbonate on demand with a sodastream?
Potassium Sorbate prevents re-fermenting when sweetening. Try experimenting with this that way you can use “fermentable sugar” better tasting in my opinion as well.
Yes, thanks. We have referred to it as "sorbate" in our videos. Combined with sulfite (potassium metabisulfite) it works great to prevent re-fermentation of your sweetener. It also does however, prevent "bottle conditioning" if you were looking for carbonation. This is not a problem if you are force carbonating and/or do not care for carbonation.
Excellent explanation to combine carbonation and back-sweetening. I am planning to prepare cider but with very low alcohol, about 3%, it is for family during christmas. Any recommendation?
I know you mentioned that heat pasteurization is dangerous using a hot pot/burner. But what if you were to use an immersion circulator for a sous vide? That would theoretically not be providing heat to the bottles directly (like a pot on a stovetop does) and would be very easy to control. Would this be a safer version of that method?
Cool idea! So the biggest problem with heat pasteurizing in the bottle is the potential breakage which from our experience, is mostly associated with degree of sudden temperature change. So going from 60 degrees f to 160 degrees f suddenly for example, will stress the glass and cause breakage. So avoid putting bottles into hot water right out of the cooler. A gradual temperature climb is less likely to break bottles Pressure also builds up in the bottles from the liquid and co2 inside, so holding them at high temperature for a long time will eventually cause breakage and/or popped lids/caps/corks. So our suggestion on trying that method is to try it on a relatively small scale and see how it works. Don't put more than 50 degree temperature change on the bottles. Put one bottle with the lid off and a thermometer in the middle to monitor the temp. As soon as you reach your desired temp - say 160 - turn it off, remove them carefully, space them out on a towel and let them cool. Depending on how much time it takes to heat them, that should get you more than adequate "PU's" (pasteurization units) to kill the yeast and anything else of concern. Probably you should use safety glasses and do it in a place that can be cleaned up if things don't go exactly as planned. Full bottles are heat pasteurized in the commercial setting so it is certainly beyond possible.
For reference, I use my sous vide immersion circulator to make dulce de leche in _airtight_ glass jars (condensed milk held at 185F for 10 hours). As they pointed out, suddenly jumping up in temperature could be a problem with glass, but the solution is easy with immersion circulators: fill your water bath with room temp water, put your bottles in, then program your pasteurization temp which gradually climbs up on its own. 160F is below the boiling point of water/ethanol, so a buildup of pressure isn't going to be problem with this system since we know for sure that the water bath won't go higher than what we set it to. There are different recommendations for time frames @160F you can find, but atleast for Pennsylvania - the Ag Department posted a minimum of 6secs @ 160F for cider (pH
Doubt you're still reading comments this far back, but I'm curious; if you didn't care about getting carbonation, couldn't you pasteurize your cider before bottling? like, just put it in a pot and heat it to kill the yeast, and then add sugar to the bottle, getting a flat, sweet product? Admittedly, I'm very new to this and haven't watched the video on bottling yet, so perhaps this was covered there, I apologize if it was
Yes you could do that, or for that matter sweeten it and heat it all in a pot. There is always a concern though, that you introduce yeast during back-sweetening or bottling because yeast is so prevalent. If you do not care about carbonation, you could consider heating the bottles after the product is bottled in a canning kettle or something similar. There is less risk in heating the bottles when there is no carbonation in them but nevertheless, one must be careful heating glass as there is a risk of breakage.
Hi chaps, love your work some great insight for amateurs like myself. Just wondered if you’ve ever used maple syrup to carbonate and if you would recommend?
Hi guys, love your videos and your channel. At bottle conditioning, I'd like to use honey for the CO2 (4.7 - 6.7 oz. per gallon) and add a non-fermentable sugar to back-sweeten (like 2-3 Tablespoons of xylitol per gallon), would that work? Finally, your 30-40 grams of sugar is (I'm assuming) per US gallon (3.78 liters), correct? Thanks again! Keep up the excellent vids! Cheers, Rand
Hi there, so my cider is about done fermenting and I now plan on adding my non fermenable sugar for sweetness and normal sugar for carbonation, like you two did. While letting my cider condition (for 2 weeks) do I keep it in or out of the fridge? Also, once it is done conditioning, will the taste alter in any way while being stored? (I'd hate to give a friend what I think to be tasty cider if it's not 1 month later)....thank you and great videos!!
Hi - good questions. Yes, so you should let it condition at room temperature so the yeast is active. Once it is done conditioning it will tend to change a little over time. Generally people feel that cider will improve with aging this way for up to about 2 years. Often you get a malo-lactic fermentation in the bottle which mellows the product a little by lowering the acidity and creating a smooth buttery note. It should be good if you keep it in a cool place like the basement for that long or longer. If you do not want a malo-lactic ferment to occur - you should refrigerate it. Thanks!
Hi. So as we understand, something smaller than 2 microns will filter out the yeast cells but .45 micron will be needed to filter out other bacteria. Thus, your .8 micron should work if you are using something else to deal with bacteria like sulfites.
You can actually carbonate before filtering in my opinion, you just have to maintain the pressure before and after the filter, like in martinotti-charmant method.
Hi there...les from new Zealand 🇳🇿 absolutely love your vidz and I have learned so much.I make up 23 litres at a time..I like my cider sweet. How much suger would I use per litre to carbonate as I like a good sparkle and also which non fermentable suger would you recommend?Also how would you interduce that to the racking fermenter and how much please...les
Hi Les. Glad to hear you are enjoying our videos. So for carbonating, Andrew Lea suggests 38 grams per gallon and Claude Jolicoeur suggests 57 grams per gallon. You will have to do the math on gallons to liters for that. Our notes indicate that for a high sparkle - 45 to 75 grams per gallon, for petillant 15 to 45 grams per gallon and for perlant, 8 to 15 grams per gallon. In other words, it depends on the level of carbonation you seek. We used 55 grams per gallon in our original "sparkling dry" recipe which was highly carbonated. For back sweetening, I'm afraid that is just going to have to be based on your preference. You should pull our a few small glasses and try measured doses of different products to see what you are liking. Good luck!
Unfortunately we do not have a position on this question. It depends on your taste. Its always good to try a couple of different kinds on small samples to make that decision.
So, if I back sweeten with a nonfermentable sugar and prime with a fermentable sugar (30-40 gr/gal) I won't have to pasteurize? If I back sweeten to my taste with fermentable sugar would I then add more sugar to total 30-40 g/gal for a medium sparkle? I know I will have to pasteurize that batch
Thanks for the awesome video guys! But my question would be, what method do YOU mostly use to backsweeten? Do you ever use non-fermentable sugars in your products?
Giuseppe. For our canned products we use juice or sugar and pasteurize. For our kegged product we use a sorbate/sulfite combination before kegging. The pasteurization is harder to do at home but we obviously have a commercial operation. The sorbate/sulfite combination is not hard to do at home. We have not used non-fermentable sugars since our home cider-making days. Thanks for asking!
@@Number12Cider I am looking to stabilize cider / kombucha using sulfites & sorbates but for the life of me can not find reliable dosing information. The packs I have say “1-2g/liter” which is a range of +/- 100%! I also understand that ABV plays a role (so dosing pressed must vs fermented cider)
Robert. Here is what we do for kegged cider at packaging: 1. Potassium Sorbate addition of 150-200ppm, dissolved in warm water 2. Potassium metabisulfite addition of 30-50ppm, dissolved in warm water Cannot say whether this works the same with kombucha as we have never made kombucha but this is what we do for cider. Good luck!
Hello! I am new to making cider, I have a batch that is in its second fermentation, and will ready to bottle soon. I just wanted to know, do you add the non fermentable sugar with no water, or do you dissolve it before adding it to the batch of cider? Also, how much water do you dispose the regular processing sugar before adding it to the cider for carbonation?
It is best to dissolve it before adding to the cider as it will help it blend. As for the amount of water, use just enough to easily dissolve the sugar. Maybe 2 cups?
Hi Sue. Thanks for asking! The Black Market brand cider we have on the table during this video is available (along with others) to order/ship at number12cider.com/shop-ciders. Shipping costs a little bit but we do ship to most states.
Im doing my sescond batch of mead right now. Thought bout doing cider in the summer or so and here i am. I do like the Irish ones (I am from germany and it really hard hard to get some good stuff here at least cider wise. Would like to try yours someday ) So I will be making it myself...
If you added some non fermentable sugar with the original fermentation batch, how would that sweeten it? Or would it not ferment correctly? Or join the yeast cake at the bottom of the carboy?
Hi! Admittedly we have not tried this method. We assume that the non-fermentable sugar would not impact the quality of the fermentation or otherwise be lost in the yeast cake but we are afraid you are going to have to find the answer by giving it a go. Let us know. Thanks!
Hi. We have not tried lactose sugar in cider. As with anything, we definately think it is worth a small scale try. Brewers do it apparently because it makes their beers sweeter, fuller and creamier. It seems that those characteristics could work in some kinds of cider although we are skeptical about whether adding "creaminess" will be good for cider. Give it a try and let us know how it went! Cheers!
My first batch of cider worked out very well but the xylitol imparted a very slight taste I want to avoid. This year I may try the chemical approach and then back sweeten with honey before force carbonating. Fingers crossed for a better harvest than 2022! Thanks for the info.
Guys ever tried add just nitrogen to cider. I have. Taste awesome. I kept it in there for about 3months in pressurized keg. It never changed. Have some of it in a swing bottle cap top now under refrigeration. No alcohol in it. SG is 1.032 brix at 18. No I see they sell a nitrogen mixer no need to add it to cider. It in fuses as it comes from keg to nitro tap. Slick A.
Fyi Snake bite is 50% cider, 50% lager. Snake bite black would be the above with blackcurrant. I guess you would order a cider black. The other option would be to order with a top, which would be lemonade.
I live in Australia and frozen juice concentrate is not a thing. I was thinking about using an apple cordial and then force carbonating. Given the cordial contains potassium sorbate, I wouldn't need to chemically stablise the dry cider first?
Hello - you can give it a try but I think you would need to add enough potassium metabisulfite or other SO2 product to kill any active yeast in your cider for that to be effective.
Hey guys again thank you for the information I was wondering can I use the Camden tablets that I used in the beginning of fermentation to stabilize the cider before bottling if I’m not worried about having carbonation. I have one gallon that I plan on back sweeting with some of the original cider my plan was to add the original cider until it balanced out the flavor then add Camden to stabilize the cider before bottling. Do you think this will work or will I be making bottle bombs.
Ray - yes, Camden tablets are potassium metabisulfite "sulfite" - which is used for sterilization. To reduce the amount of sulfite needed and to effectively kill off all the yeast, most authorities recommend using sorbate together with sulfite to prevent refermentation of a back-sweetened cider at the time of bottling. So I would say use both Camden tablets and sorbate. Thanks!
Wouldn't the solution be to use a yeast that that keeps some of that sweetness intact (so not a wine yeast, that makes it dry)and then just not bother with pasteurisering?
We are very fond of using different yeasts depending on your goal. Not aware of any that will leave a material amount of residual sugar but let us know if you found a good option for that. Traditionally the English and the French used methods to reduce the nutrients in the juice to starve the yeast (i.e. Keeving). That is also something you could try.
That's what I started to wonder, when getting into homebrewing. Couldn't believe that nobody has bred a strain that has a cider level alcohol tolerance.
If you back-sweeten and do not want it carbonated, you can treat it right away to kill the yeast. The best formula is a combination of sorbate and sulfite. The tablets are a form of sulfite.
Yes, so some people are allergic to sulfites. If you have been using camden tablets - you have been using sulfites. Camden tablets are potassium metabisulfite.
I got in a hurry and pasteurized my bottled cider to soon and didn't have enough carbonation plus it was too dry any suggestions ? Can I add some brown sugar and repitch a packet of yeast and bottle and re pasteurize once carbonated
Yes. Since you pasteurized, the yeast is dead. If you used heat to pasteurize rather than chemicals, you can just introduce more sugar and yeast. Good luck with that!
It is possible to do that if you have expensive equipment. The only way to blend/mix a carbonated product would be by flowing it through a closed system. If there is a pressure release anywhere, you will lose carbonation. In our facility we have brite tanks that hold pressure. So for example, if we put the chemical in our hose and connected it to two ports on the brite tank, we could circulate the carbonated product. It gets harder if not impossible to do that with home equipment.
Earl. You do not have to kill the yeast before carbonating. However, if you add sugar (this video is about "back-sweetening") or there is any residual sugar, the remaining yeast will ferment that sugar. So if you want to preserve that flavor profile you need to stop the yeast from doing its thing. Take a look at our video on carbonating/kegging for more on carbonating cider.
Yep. It is a yeast inhibitor which, when combined in the right amounts with potassium metabisulfite, will prevent the yeast from fermenting your back-sweetened cider but to the point we make in the video, if you kill or inhibit the live yeast - you then must use force carbonation to carbonate the product. Good luck!
I have one annoyance with you...you are mixing your measurements...you say 30g's which is metric but then you say 'pint' which is imperial...WHY..?? how many litres to a pint is there...? choose a measurement please...I'm an Aussie, we use the metric system..
thank you @@stephenhance5260 ...I'm up to the next step in my cider making...I've got 3 demijohns full of cider made from apples from our apple tree (got sick of the lorikeets getting their fill each year)...it's now settled..the demijohns are 5 litres each so I need to know how much sugar to use in order for it to sparkle in the bottles..I got the equipment today for siphoning the bottles and will do so into food grade buckets..if this turns into a success then I think I'll be doing this every year...can't let the birds win...
you make cider and haven't been to England!?!?! Blasphemy!! You got to watch or visit Roger Wilkins at Lands End Farm! He makes the most proper cider on the planet!
Duly noted my friend! I have to qualify that Colin has been there but not me. The England, France and Spain cider country trips are all on the bucket list.
Great video,. I'm from the uk, a cider with blackcurrant is called a cider and black. A snakebite is equal measures of cider and lager
Right? Thank you! Also you might get a lemonade 'top' but probably with lager and not cider, which is sweet enough as it is
I remember when you could order a snakebite in the pub! Good old days 😎
The reason I love your videos is because we are learning how to brew Cider from professional brewers. You usually get that in beer making, but not much in cider making. Most videos on TH-cam right now are just of some guys making cider in their spare time with store bought apple juice. There is nothing wrong with that, but I want to spend my time learning how to make high quality cider from the experts. Keep up the good work lads and hope you do a video on how to make dry-hopped ciders. I'll be trying my first attempt at one this year!
Ecoin. Thank you for your comments. Good luck on dry-hopping cider. Yes, that is a popular thing nowadays so we will see what we can do.
Guys, great video. Love your vibe and interaction. One thing I wanted to mention - I've tried back-sweetening a very straight, simple cider with Stevia and had to discard the entire batch. While it adds non-fermentable sweetness, Stevia is not flavorless and adds a distinctly strange, almost metallic taste to the product. Everyone who tried the back-sweetened portion of that batch detested it and found the dry version very drinkable and far better although some wished for it to be sweeter. For the record, that batch was made with fresh-pressed, unpasteurized cider from a local mill, stilled with potassium metabisulphite to remove wild yeasts and bacteria, fermented with a Champagne yeast to a 6-7% ABV, half back-sweetened with Stevia and half not, then bottled with about 25 gm/gallon of fermentable priming sugar to develop carbonation. Haven't tried Monkfruit, but I've shifted instead to using Red Star's Premier Côte de Blancs yeast to bring up the fruit flavors that the champagne yeast neutralized. It still produces a dry cider but with more fruit flavors coming through, there's more joy. I may try the trick of adding a short measure of sweet cider before serving, or bringing a small pitcher of sweet cider to the table to allow guests to add sweetness to their liking in the future.
We love that you are really drilling down to what you like. Thank you!
Hey guys, just a quick thanks from everyone like me who is just getting into making their own cider. You guys are answering many of the questions that we all have about the necessary steps and processes that go into making a delicious cider. Keep up the good work.
Thanks John! We will do our best.
Thanks for the video. I haven’t done any home brewing at all yet, but was planning on starting with a cider. The plan now is to back sweeten with concentrated apple juice, with enough concentrate to get a sweet cider, and bottle into plastic bottles. When the bottles become very firm, similar to a store bought drink, I was going to transfer into a cold fridge. If it doesn’t taste terrible, I think I should be able to drink a gallon or 2 of cider in a few weeks, before it gets too carbonated for the bottle :0. I REALLY appreciate that 30-40 grams of sugar tip for the carbonation portion of the process though, thank you.
Good luck with that! We look forward to hearing about it.
Wow, thanks guys. I've got some really nice blackberry wine fermenting for the first time at the moment. It's tasting surprisingly amazing by the way.
I have two younger brothers who I know are not really wine lovers and much prefer glugging down some cider, or anything that doesn't taste like wine. Your videos have given me a really good insight into making cider or cider, at home. I'm very excited to make a start on it next week and hope not to blow up the kitchen as my wife wont like that. Thank you.
Great information! Hopefully you guys make more videos
Thank you very much for this informative vlog, much appreciated.
You're welcome. Thanks for watching!
Brilliant, many thanks, you've solved a problem for me ... 😀🍎🍺🍏
You guys are great! I've got my 1st batch of hard cider in the fermenter (80 liters). I am now onto back-sweetening with non fermentable sugar. You guys say just add to taste, but if I am targeting and semi-dry / semi-sweet product, do you have a "rule of thumb" based on your excellent experience. I'll take whatever metric you are comfortable with ... grams / gallons, liters, etc. ;-) Also, I am using Erythritol (PureVia) as a back-sweetener. Many thanks!
This is a subject that TH-cam is hungry for....I am on my fourth year of pressing and fermenting my own home brew cider and I’ve learned everything from the internet. I have had a great batch, a bad batch and an okay batch. The best batch I ever made was quite complicated but everyone loved it, myself included. I heard all the warnings about pasteurizing pressurized bottles and went for it anyways. I back sweetened my dry cider with my own pressed apple juice and filled a plastic bottle up to gauge how carbonated the bottles were before I pasteurized them in a water bath. I had no bottles blow up on me even though I was nervous the whole time, and no bottles were over/under carbonated. It was perfect, the cider was mildly sweet with a wonderful apple taste. I want to do it again this year but still feel nervous about the water bath pasteurizing. Is this the only way to home brew a pure apple juice sweet cider or is there something I am missing?
Congratulations on making a great cider! Water bath pasteuring can work well - but you should wear protective gear and it is best to gradually heat up the bottles. A sudden change in temperature is more likely to cause breakage. Regular crown caps typically hold up in a pasteurization bath. Stronger bottles such as champagne bottles limit breakage. A differential of 50 degrees or more will probably result in some breakage. If you want to use natural juice with fermentable sugar to back-sweeten and you want carbonation, you will need to pasteurize after packaging. The only alternative is to force-carbonate the product using a kegging system or brite tank. When you force-carbonate you can stabalize the back-sweetened cider with sorbate and sulfite before pasteurizing.
Nice!! Good insight
Pasteurizing is gonna be my method. Sous vide in the future. Have pasteurized twice using a hot bath. It works, but it's sketchy. Haha
Great videos for dummies like me, thanks
Should I let the nom fermentable sugar sit for a little bit before I bottle and carbonize? Also can I add the NF sugar straight to my carboy that has my cider?
No need to let it sit before bottling - but make sure its thoroughly blended in. Yes, it can be added straight to the carboy.
Very instructive video. Thank you for doing it. I want to let my hard cider age and clarify so I am doing a second fermentation of a few weeks. Will there be enough live yeast left after 4-6 weeks of second fermementation to get some carbonation?
Yes, there will almost certainly be enough live yeast. It is very rare that you do not have viable live yeast at that point. Some people pitch a small amount of additional yeast for carbonation, which you could do as well if you like. Good luck!
Hello! Thank you very much for the video. I have a question. I remember that Stevia presentations have some sucrose to give it volume in the sachet, which normally weigh 1g.
However, regarding the weight and composition of commercial stevias, won't they modify the CO2 production due to that small amount of fermentable sugar? We want to make a semi-sweet cider with carbonation but we want to put it in a barrel but we don't want to pasteurize it either and we are going to forcefully carbonate it. Will we have problems with that small part of fermentable sugar when we put it in the barrel and sweeten it with commercial stevia? Will I have to modify the C02 pressure? Thank you very much.
If you're adding the stevia in the barrel, I would wait a few days to make sure any fermentable sugar ferments out. If it starts fermenting, you should consider waiting until that re-fermentation subsides. Know that a force carbonated product that is not pasteurized will still undergo a malo-lactic fermentation in the keg if you give it enough time. The longer you take to finish the keg (in terms of months) the more likely malo-lactic fermentation builds up pressure and potentially disrupts your pouring.
I have not made cider yet, but this is a very informative video, thank you. I am not sure I want to go down the road of bottling my cider with a natural carbonation. I remember making beer with my dad 35 years ago and loosing a whole case after one bottle blew and caused a chain reaction. (What a mess). I am curious if I were to pasteurize or sulfite my cider could I not just carbonate on demand with a sodastream?
Yes, I believe you can do that. You may heat pasteurize or use a sorbate/sulfite combination to prevent re-fermentation chemically.
Potassium Sorbate prevents re-fermenting when sweetening. Try experimenting with this that way you can use “fermentable sugar” better tasting in my opinion as well.
Yes, thanks. We have referred to it as "sorbate" in our videos. Combined with sulfite (potassium metabisulfite) it works great to prevent re-fermentation of your sweetener. It also does however, prevent "bottle conditioning" if you were looking for carbonation. This is not a problem if you are force carbonating and/or do not care for carbonation.
Excellent explanation to combine carbonation and back-sweetening. I am planning to prepare cider but with very low alcohol, about 3%, it is for family during christmas. Any recommendation?
Were you planning to use a very low gravity juice or to arrest the fermentation?
I know you mentioned that heat pasteurization is dangerous using a hot pot/burner. But what if you were to use an immersion circulator for a sous vide? That would theoretically not be providing heat to the bottles directly (like a pot on a stovetop does) and would be very easy to control. Would this be a safer version of that method?
Cool idea! So the biggest problem with heat pasteurizing in the bottle is the potential breakage which from our experience, is mostly associated with degree of sudden temperature change. So going from 60 degrees f to 160 degrees f suddenly for example, will stress the glass and cause breakage. So avoid putting bottles into hot water right out of the cooler. A gradual temperature climb is less likely to break bottles Pressure also builds up in the bottles from the liquid and co2 inside, so holding them at high temperature for a long time will eventually cause breakage and/or popped lids/caps/corks. So our suggestion on trying that method is to try it on a relatively small scale and see how it works. Don't put more than 50 degree temperature change on the bottles. Put one bottle with the lid off and a thermometer in the middle to monitor the temp. As soon as you reach your desired temp - say 160 - turn it off, remove them carefully, space them out on a towel and let them cool. Depending on how much time it takes to heat them, that should get you more than adequate "PU's" (pasteurization units) to kill the yeast and anything else of concern. Probably you should use safety glasses and do it in a place that can be cleaned up if things don't go exactly as planned. Full bottles are heat pasteurized in the commercial setting so it is certainly beyond possible.
For reference, I use my sous vide immersion circulator to make dulce de leche in _airtight_ glass jars (condensed milk held at 185F for 10 hours). As they pointed out, suddenly jumping up in temperature could be a problem with glass, but the solution is easy with immersion circulators: fill your water bath with room temp water, put your bottles in, then program your pasteurization temp which gradually climbs up on its own. 160F is below the boiling point of water/ethanol, so a buildup of pressure isn't going to be problem with this system since we know for sure that the water bath won't go higher than what we set it to. There are different recommendations for time frames @160F you can find, but atleast for Pennsylvania - the Ag Department posted a minimum of 6secs @ 160F for cider (pH
Doubt you're still reading comments this far back, but I'm curious; if you didn't care about getting carbonation, couldn't you pasteurize your cider before bottling? like, just put it in a pot and heat it to kill the yeast, and then add sugar to the bottle, getting a flat, sweet product?
Admittedly, I'm very new to this and haven't watched the video on bottling yet, so perhaps this was covered there, I apologize if it was
Yes you could do that, or for that matter sweeten it and heat it all in a pot. There is always a concern though, that you introduce yeast during back-sweetening or bottling because yeast is so prevalent. If you do not care about carbonation, you could consider heating the bottles after the product is bottled in a canning kettle or something similar. There is less risk in heating the bottles when there is no carbonation in them but nevertheless, one must be careful heating glass as there is a risk of breakage.
@@Number12Cider Thank you!
Hi chaps, love your work some great insight for amateurs like myself. Just wondered if you’ve ever used maple syrup to carbonate and if you would recommend?
We have not used maple sugar to carbonate but we see no reason why it wouldn't work just the same. Let us know how it turns out!
I think adding sweetener when you drink it is the easiest!!
Hi guys, love your videos and your channel. At bottle conditioning, I'd like to use honey for the CO2 (4.7 - 6.7 oz. per gallon) and add a non-fermentable sugar to back-sweeten (like 2-3 Tablespoons of xylitol per gallon), would that work? Finally, your 30-40 grams of sugar is (I'm assuming) per US gallon (3.78 liters), correct? Thanks again! Keep up the excellent vids!
Cheers,
Rand
Hi. So the amount of xylitol depends on what you want for residual sweetness. Yes, we were talking 30-40 grams per gallon. Good luck!
Hi there, so my cider is about done fermenting and I now plan on adding my non fermenable sugar for sweetness and normal sugar for carbonation, like you two did. While letting my cider condition (for 2 weeks) do I keep it in or out of the fridge? Also, once it is done conditioning, will the taste alter in any way while being stored? (I'd hate to give a friend what I think to be tasty cider if it's not 1 month later)....thank you and great videos!!
Hi - good questions. Yes, so you should let it condition at room temperature so the yeast is active. Once it is done conditioning it will tend to change a little over time. Generally people feel that cider will improve with aging this way for up to about 2 years. Often you get a malo-lactic fermentation in the bottle which mellows the product a little by lowering the acidity and creating a smooth buttery note. It should be good if you keep it in a cool place like the basement for that long or longer. If you do not want a malo-lactic ferment to occur - you should refrigerate it. Thanks!
Thanks for the great video. If you are filtering for stabilization before backsweetening can you use an .8micron filter or do you need .45micron?
Hi. So as we understand, something smaller than 2 microns will filter out the yeast cells but .45 micron will be needed to filter out other bacteria. Thus, your .8 micron should work if you are using something else to deal with bacteria like sulfites.
Very informative! Thank you a lot!
You're very welcome!
You can actually carbonate before filtering in my opinion, you just have to maintain the pressure before and after the filter, like in martinotti-charmant method.
Thank you. Yes, in a closed system.
Hi there...les from new Zealand 🇳🇿 absolutely love your vidz and I have learned so much.I make up 23 litres at a time..I like my cider sweet. How much suger would I use per litre to carbonate as I like a good sparkle and also which non fermentable suger would you recommend?Also how would you interduce that to the racking fermenter and how much please...les
Hi Les. Glad to hear you are enjoying our videos. So for carbonating, Andrew Lea suggests 38 grams per gallon and Claude Jolicoeur suggests 57 grams per gallon. You will have to do the math on gallons to liters for that. Our notes indicate that for a high sparkle - 45 to 75 grams per gallon, for petillant 15 to 45 grams per gallon and for perlant, 8 to 15 grams per gallon. In other words, it depends on the level of carbonation you seek. We used 55 grams per gallon in our original "sparkling dry" recipe which was highly carbonated. For back sweetening, I'm afraid that is just going to have to be based on your preference. You should pull our a few small glasses and try measured doses of different products to see what you are liking. Good luck!
based on your experience, what's the best non fermentable sweetener for backsweeting?
Unfortunately we do not have a position on this question. It depends on your taste. Its always good to try a couple of different kinds on small samples to make that decision.
So, if I back sweeten with a nonfermentable sugar and prime with a fermentable sugar (30-40 gr/gal) I won't have to pasteurize? If I back sweeten to my taste with fermentable sugar would I then add more sugar to total 30-40 g/gal for a medium sparkle? I know I will have to pasteurize that batch
That should work!
Thanks for the awesome video guys! But my question would be, what method do YOU mostly use to backsweeten? Do you ever use non-fermentable sugars in your products?
Giuseppe. For our canned products we use juice or sugar and pasteurize. For our kegged product we use a sorbate/sulfite combination before kegging. The pasteurization is harder to do at home but we obviously have a commercial operation. The sorbate/sulfite combination is not hard to do at home. We have not used non-fermentable sugars since our home cider-making days. Thanks for asking!
@@Number12Cider Thank you for answering!
@@Number12Cider I am looking to stabilize cider / kombucha using sulfites & sorbates but for the life of me can not find reliable dosing information. The packs I have say “1-2g/liter” which is a range of +/- 100%! I also understand that ABV plays a role (so dosing pressed must vs fermented cider)
Robert. Here is what we do for kegged cider at packaging:
1. Potassium Sorbate addition of 150-200ppm, dissolved in warm water
2. Potassium metabisulfite addition of 30-50ppm, dissolved in warm water
Cannot say whether this works the same with kombucha as we have never made kombucha but this is what we do for cider. Good luck!
@@Number12Cider thanks!
Hello! I am new to making cider, I have a batch that is in its second fermentation, and will ready to bottle soon. I just wanted to know, do you add the non fermentable sugar with no water, or do you dissolve it before adding it to the batch of cider? Also, how much water do you dispose the regular processing sugar before adding it to the cider for carbonation?
It is best to dissolve it before adding to the cider as it will help it blend. As for the amount of water, use just enough to easily dissolve the sugar. Maybe 2 cups?
Do you add any k-meta during bottling? Or would that inhibit the yeast to produce the c02? Do you need to add extra yeast before bottling?
No. If you are bottle conditioning you do not want to inhibit the yeast...
@@stephenhance5260 That's what I thought. Thx!
Can I buy those cans you showed? Can you ship them? Thank you! February 11, 2022
Hi Sue. Thanks for asking! The Black Market brand cider we have on the table during this video is available (along with others) to order/ship at number12cider.com/shop-ciders. Shipping costs a little bit but we do ship to most states.
Im doing my sescond batch of mead right now. Thought bout doing cider in the summer or so and here i am. I do like the Irish ones (I am from germany and it really hard hard to get some good stuff here at least cider wise. Would like to try yours someday ) So I will be making it myself...
Good luck!
If you added some non fermentable sugar with the original fermentation batch, how would that sweeten it? Or would it not ferment correctly? Or join the yeast cake at the bottom of the carboy?
Hi! Admittedly we have not tried this method. We assume that the non-fermentable sugar would not impact the quality of the fermentation or otherwise be lost in the yeast cake but we are afraid you are going to have to find the answer by giving it a go. Let us know. Thanks!
nope snakebite is lager or bitter with cider 50/50 and a red witch is cider with a shot of pernod and blackcurrent
Any thoughts about using lactose sugar as the non/fermentable sweetener?
Hi. We have not tried lactose sugar in cider. As with anything, we definately think it is worth a small scale try. Brewers do it apparently because it makes their beers sweeter, fuller and creamier. It seems that those characteristics could work in some kinds of cider although we are skeptical about whether adding "creaminess" will be good for cider. Give it a try and let us know how it went! Cheers!
Brilliant...
My first batch of cider worked out very well but the xylitol imparted a very slight taste I want to avoid. This year I may try the chemical approach and then back sweeten with honey before force carbonating. Fingers crossed for a better harvest than 2022! Thanks for the info.
Love your commitment and willingness to make adjustments. Good luck!
Guys ever tried add just nitrogen to cider. I have. Taste awesome. I kept it in there for about 3months in pressurized keg. It never changed. Have some of it in a swing bottle cap top now under refrigeration. No alcohol in it. SG is 1.032 brix at 18.
No I see they sell a nitrogen mixer no need to add it to cider. It in fuses as it comes from keg to nitro tap. Slick A.
Fyi Snake bite is 50% cider, 50% lager.
Snake bite black would be the above with blackcurrant.
I guess you would order a cider black.
The other option would be to order with a top, which would be lemonade.
I live in Australia and frozen juice concentrate is not a thing. I was thinking about using an apple cordial and then force carbonating. Given the cordial contains potassium sorbate, I wouldn't need to chemically stablise the dry cider first?
Hello - you can give it a try but I think you would need to add enough potassium metabisulfite or other SO2 product to kill any active yeast in your cider for that to be effective.
Hey guys again thank you for the information I was wondering can I use the Camden tablets that I used in the beginning of fermentation to stabilize the cider before bottling if I’m not worried about having carbonation. I have one gallon that I plan on back sweeting with some of the original cider my plan was to add the original cider until it balanced out the flavor then add Camden to stabilize the cider before bottling. Do you think this will work or will I be making bottle bombs.
Ray - yes, Camden tablets are potassium metabisulfite "sulfite" - which is used for sterilization. To reduce the amount of sulfite needed and to effectively kill off all the yeast, most authorities recommend using sorbate together with sulfite to prevent refermentation of a back-sweetened cider at the time of bottling. So I would say use both Camden tablets and sorbate. Thanks!
@@Number12Cider thank you
Wouldn't the solution be to use a yeast that that keeps some of that sweetness intact (so not a wine yeast, that makes it dry)and then just not bother with pasteurisering?
We are very fond of using different yeasts depending on your goal. Not aware of any that will leave a material amount of residual sugar but let us know if you found a good option for that. Traditionally the English and the French used methods to reduce the nutrients in the juice to starve the yeast (i.e. Keeving). That is also something you could try.
That's what I started to wonder, when getting into homebrewing. Couldn't believe that nobody has bred a strain that has a cider level alcohol tolerance.
If I back sweeten and don't want it carbonated, how long do you wait after sweeting to stop the yeast with the tablets?
If you back-sweeten and do not want it carbonated, you can treat it right away to kill the yeast. The best formula is a combination of sorbate and sulfite. The tablets are a form of sulfite.
@@Number12Cider is that the same type of sulfites that give me a headache
Yes, so some people are allergic to sulfites. If you have been using camden tablets - you have been using sulfites. Camden tablets are potassium metabisulfite.
We had snakebite which was half cider have beer
I got in a hurry and pasteurized my bottled cider to soon and didn't have enough carbonation plus it was too dry any suggestions ? Can I add some brown sugar and repitch a packet of yeast and bottle and re pasteurize once carbonated
Yes. Since you pasteurized, the yeast is dead. If you used heat to pasteurize rather than chemicals, you can just introduce more sugar and yeast. Good luck with that!
One question why couldnt you use the chemical options after carbonating??
It is possible to do that if you have expensive equipment. The only way to blend/mix a carbonated product would be by flowing it through a closed system. If there is a pressure release anywhere, you will lose carbonation. In our facility we have brite tanks that hold pressure. So for example, if we put the chemical in our hose and connected it to two ports on the brite tank, we could circulate the carbonated product. It gets harder if not impossible to do that with home equipment.
Why do you have to kill the yeast before carbonating?
Earl. You do not have to kill the yeast before carbonating. However, if you add sugar (this video is about "back-sweetening") or there is any residual sugar, the remaining yeast will ferment that sugar. So if you want to preserve that flavor profile you need to stop the yeast from doing its thing. Take a look at our video on carbonating/kegging for more on carbonating cider.
Snakebite is half cider n half larger. Cider n Black is what ur referring to
HMM - thanks Andy! We will get it right in the future.... or at least try. ;)
What about potasium sorbate?
Yep. It is a yeast inhibitor which, when combined in the right amounts with potassium metabisulfite, will prevent the yeast from fermenting your back-sweetened cider but to the point we make in the video, if you kill or inhibit the live yeast - you then must use force carbonation to carbonate the product. Good luck!
Stupid question what is the difference between like apple wine and apple cider?
Pretty much no difference. Cider is a better word for apple wine in our opinion :)
Snake bite is 1 part cider and 1 part larger. Cider and black is with blackcurrant squash
Thank you for the correction!
Have you/anyone tryed glycine for this?
Could you just use a SodaStream to carbonate it?
Yes
: )
I wish you would have actually showed us hands on. All this talking is great but 🤔
I have one annoyance with you...you are mixing your measurements...you say 30g's which is metric but then you say 'pint' which is imperial...WHY..?? how many litres to a pint is there...? choose a measurement please...I'm an Aussie, we use the metric system..
Hi. Sorry. Yes, American habit as we continue in our failure to convert to metric and end up using both. We will do our best!
thank you @@stephenhance5260 ...I'm up to the next step in my cider making...I've got 3 demijohns full of cider made from apples from our apple tree (got sick of the lorikeets getting their fill each year)...it's now settled..the demijohns are 5 litres each so I need to know how much sugar to use in order for it to sparkle in the bottles..I got the equipment today for siphoning the bottles and will do so into food grade buckets..if this turns into a success then I think I'll be doing this every year...can't let the birds win...
you make cider and haven't been to England!?!?! Blasphemy!! You got to watch or visit Roger Wilkins at Lands End Farm! He makes the most proper cider on the planet!
Duly noted my friend! I have to qualify that Colin has been there but not me. The England, France and Spain cider country trips are all on the bucket list.
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NOT HELPFULL
What about lactose? Doesn't break down in yeast.