This Changes EVERYTHING | The Giggle Review and Analysis
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- Doctor Who just wrapped up its epic 60th anniversary trilogy with The Giggle, a huge episode seeing the returns of familiar faces, a legendary old foe and the 14th Doctor's divisive regeneration. But is it good?
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Can I just say as a wrestling fan who has only just found your channel, I absolutely love the little references.
This episode was stupid and it broke everything like the Timeless Child
@mattthesilent777RED yes you're right. It has just got to the point where people like RTD etc are writing any old crap regardless of the story, there excuse now being that Dr.Who has always shit all over the canon so they come out with more and more garbage giving it the big one as if we the people who are paying for it don't matter. I mean c'mon getting another Tardis by hitting on the side. Thumbs down 👎
Couple things:
T Davies has said it's the same TARDIS and that this isn't the end of the double TARDIS thing. I think the TARDIS allowed itself to duplicate to compensate for two Doctors, much like the console room glitched when three of them were in there during the 50th
Second of all. If you think about the 3 games the Doctor and Toymaker played. 1st was a game of logic, 2nd was a game of chance, 3rd was a game of skill. It actually works pretty well when you think of it that way
Edit: The reason the Toymaker is annoyed is because the 3rd game was a game of skill, and there were two Doctors, equally skilled. This allowed the odds to be in their favour, which he despises. If you think of the 2nd game as something he didn't cheat at...merely allowed the odds to play in his favour (he shuffled), then his reactions to both are perfect. He expected the game of skill to come, he didn't expect the odds to go against him the way that they did.
Being two doctors doesnt help if it is a game of skill, as you have said, if you consider this a game of skill, a single doctor would have been able to defeat the toymaker by himself. In fact it might even be worse to be two doctors as they have double the chance to drop the ball and they are treated as the same entity.
What is worse is that the game doesnt require 3 people, it doesnt change fundamentally with 3 people, there is no loophole, no plan. It is not either something that only the doctor could have done, any relatively good ball player would have won against toymaker, which seems like a plot oversight.
Compare this to literally any doctor who climax where the doctor is essential, the doctor had a plan and excecuts it perfectly, this is not worthy of doctor who, thats it.
In a way (although a stretch) is that it did tie back to the Toymaker’s comments re: playing w/ balls when the Doctor & Donna meet him in the toy shop.
Not passing judgement on ending or commentary … just a thought on how the two elements tied together.
The Toymaker’s choice was to visit the earliest game between two people: catch.
That he didn’t account for a 3-way match in the simple game is … questionable.
@@Yarnballer It is not a stretch at all, but they had perfect control over what to show at the start to then tie it at the end, doesnt mean it makes it automatically good.
In fact a game of ball like that would not be the first game ever played, all evidence points to mancala as far as I know.
Even with balls, the first game that is thought to be played with ball is mesoamerican ball, the one with full contact teams and scoring through a circular ring.
I am not saying they should play these ancient games, though I would not discard the possibility of using an ancient game.
What I am trying to get at, is that it being the final game cause it is the first game he says was played, doesnt mean that they couldnt been able to claim any other game was the first one to be invented, as the toymaker can bend the rules to make any game be the first game..
Or you know, we could have actually gotten an actual 3 player high stake game or anything better than dropping a ball.
As i understood it its not that the TARDIS is allowing itself to duplicate. Its the 15th Doctors prize for winning the game. Because both he and the 14th doctor won the game there are two prizes. The 14th doctor wished for his prize to be the banishing of the toymaker. the 15th wished for the second TARDIS.
The thing with the Tardis is that it was 3 Tardises from three different times. This was an exact duplicate
My biggest problem was how short it was as the story ends right as it gets going
Indeed.
What story?
@gonzalojohnson you can tell it was going to be a story about the toymaker bringing the doctor to his breaking point but that got sidelined with the whole bigeneration thing
@@Joeylikesgames-ku9mx im just being salty, dont mind me. Rip doctor who
@gonzalojohnson yea I really hope ge can turn it around soon
With your critique about the card cutting scene, The Doctor doesn’t take only the top card. He cuts it exactly like how The Toymaker does if you notice the dozen other cards under his. Although, to be fair, The Toymaker could have had a technique to cheat either way since he is a ‘bad loser’ so it’s nothing too deep. *Still a wonderful insightful review yet again, Harbo! 💚✨*
"For shame!" 😑
well the toymaker physically can not cheat once he agrees. when he is challenged to a game, he's honor bound to the game's rules. this means that he truly took a gamble and won. he always tries to find loopholes to make sure he wins, but thats why the doctor picked a simple game where there werent many options
@@frostwing1899 The only rules were "we cut, highest wins, ace is high."
There were no rules against the Toymaker using his knowledge of how he shuffled the deck to pick his number.
Though since the Toymaker operates by "the rules of play" this may be an assumed rule he must follow anyway.
In any case, I certainly think the *intention* behind the game is the Doctor just got unlucky.
I think this "bigeneration" was only possible because of the crazy physics-bending crap the Toymaker was doing. If the Toymaker's thing is games, then his breaking the rules of reality has to be something to do with tilting the odds, messing with the quantum universe. So yes, it was a regeneration, but I think it's implied that 14 wasn't supposed to die there. He was meant to slow down and resolve his trauma, and then later regenerate normally. The 15th Doctor _is_ the one who 14 regenerated into, but he's here early, and that doesn't mean 14 is _going_ to regenerate into Gatwa later, necessarily. I don't think they'll ever "merge", because why would they? There are two now, that's just a thing. 15 is running around at large in the universe early, now. He's not "from the future", really, he's from within the Doctor's future, but he's here now.
I liked the game of catch, because it was a _simple_ game. They made something small, childish, that everyone knows, that everyone from every culture that ever found a round thing has played, and they rested the fate of the universe on it. It was well shot, it gave a sense of tension and action, and as it went, if you don't know how the episode ends, 14 could have dropped the ball at any time.
I think the biggest takeaway here, though, is we now live in a world where it's possible to have a three-Tennant special. The 10th Doctor, the 14th, and the human metacrisis Doctor could all meet because of literally _any_ bullshit contrivance the writers can make up.
Excellent comment. I personally would love to see that episode you wrote at the end there. 😂🤣
The added power of both the BBC and Disney's stingy-ness around copyright is gonna make uploading reviews an absolute nightmare in the future
Disney doesn’t own the copyright. Only the distribution rights.
That scene of NPH dancing to the Spice Girls is the greatest moment of the entire franchise.
My head canon is that the game the Master lost against the Toymaker was a dance off...
It did feel very much like that scene done right.
@@Jedi_Spartanwell obviously! But what song were they dancing to! THAT is the real question
@@BEE-oz7ydDoctor In Distress?
Well that’s alright then
My impression was that 14 becomes the curator, but 15 still comes after, having all the wisdom and emotional stability that 14 curates for himself.
Severely, severely underrated comment. That makes 100% sense.
I like this idea save for the leap in looks from Tenant to Baker to end up looking like the Curator we saw. Maybe another regeneration to cope with the grief of losing the Noble family once they all grow old and dies?
And was it 10 or 11 that said he would like to become a curator tho? Think it was 11.
@kelmacett2456 he said just the old favourites, if he is the curator doctor we can only guess that there are multiple old face regenerations.
@@alexh2947 you are right im just trying to remember if it was number 10 or number 11 who said "that i would like to become the curator of this place someday".
@kelmacett2456 11 said that, 10 said I don't wanna go (to trenzalore)
RTD has never actually done a normal Doctor regeneration when you think about it;
9th Doctor's one introduced the gold flames
10th Doctor's first one had him regenerate into himself
10th Doctor's second one had it be destructive, and destroy the TARDIS
14th Doctor's was a bi-generation
never did it change past canon until 14th tho
@@bananess_ well actually yeah before RDT regeneration was just laying on the ground and changing but now it something that could be used as a weapon
@@bananess_ The metacrisis was a change of canon, first time a Doctor didn't change after a regenration. But I think it was much better handled as it has limitations and was contained to a single story (i.e. needing a part of himself, the hand, to regenerate into the same person, and the metacrisis Doctor being human and stuck in another universe), while this one leaves possibilities open and 14 could show up any time with his Tardis. I really don't buy the Doctor just sitting around on Earth willingly, it's just not who he is
@@Creadeyh RTD also confirmed that now this bi-regen happened, every time the doctor regenerated in the past turned into a bi-regeneration, which has insane implications
@@bananess_ It's just his comment, nothing like that said in the episode, so you can dismiss it as non canon if you want.
I just hate the whole idea both ways
My understanding of the Double TaRDiS thing is that it's similar to bigeneration; Just as Ncuti's Doctor was ripped from the point in time where 14 actually regenerates in the future, the second TaRDiS is the same one from that same point in time, pulled back to the present; Hence why he goes away in that, instead of the "original", since that's the one from his personal timeline.
Still a dumb concept, just have him die. Like I don't get it at all, he's already been reveled to have infinite regenerations, so it doesn't even matter anymore
Bringing back a fan favorite and then killing him 3 episodes in would have been terrible. Doing it this way allows the 14th to go off and live a full life while also letting the 15th Doctor continue, free of the trauma.
@@Jiub_SNagreed. Move on. By having a Tennant doctor back on modern day , you’re just constantly teasing people with “oooh, maybe he’ll return here..who knows”
I really liked Bi-generation solely because it allowed Tennants doctor to have a happy end, which I think he deserved after everything he’s been through alone as the 10th doctor, if that makes sense.
It also allows the Doctor to have that happy ending where he can settle and finally be around people who care about him and finally have that rest, while still allowing us to see adventures with the 15th and subsequent doctors.
Also Neil Patrick Harris CRUSHED it as the Toymaker. It’s always fun to so easily see that an actor is having a ton of fun in their role.
Where was all that pity for John Hurt’s War Doctor though? It’s funny how everyone pities the 10th Doctor played by the very handsome David Tennant but not so much the less attractive Doctors? LOL
PS. The 10th Doctor was the Doctor that became the worst and gave in to his own hubris and power. He was the one who didn’t deserve a happy ending but was allowed to redeem himself vis a vis saving Wilf and then getting to say his goodbyes.
That was more than he actually deserved.
But the ladies (and some men) love the 10th Doctor way beyond his storyline deserves...?
I wonder...😸
@@PaulusAlone the war doctor didn’t get nearly as much screen time and characterization as 10. John Hurt played him brilliantly and it has nothing to do with “this person is more physically attractive!” It’s down to us knowing more about one character than the other
@@moonscript4675 - “It has nothing to do with this person is more physically attractive” you say?
You really think that it has nothing to do with it?
Because no one seemed bothered by all the other less handsome doctors getting a less than happy ending? 😉
@@PaulusAloneThe difference is that the War Doctor, while bitter and cynical, still lived a long life and got the respect and acceptance from the other Doctors after being rejected so badly he was literally suppressed from their memories. The moment they let him in as one of them, he was able to move on in peace and become Nine.
Ten, on the other hand, had a MUCH shorter lifespan while also carrying the residue PTSD from Nine, lost companions left and right, suffered physically and psychologically and to top it all off, he died alone, scared and in despair. He got his closure only on a surface level.
Personally, my issue with the split regeneration is that I feel like it's left too much to the audience's interpretation as to where 15 stands in The Doctor's timeline. Is he a clone separate from the original? Is he a future Doctor pulled from his timestream, as others have suggested? If it was the former, I'd consider it a disrespectful move and a worrying omen about how the BBC now have a spare David Tennant to bring back despite the fact that the show's more than just him. If it's the latter, then I'd definitely feel better about it. While RTD has said there's no plans to bring back 14 anytime soon, I hope they kill him off if he returns again just so we know whether or not he can still regenerate. Otherwise, they could also use the split regeneration to set up The Valeyard or The Curator, which I wouldn't mind personally
rtd said he imagined after this event all of the doctors bi regenerated, in his mind so i guess we'll see if that goes anywhere
I can't help thinking of 15 as the Doctor and 14 still being there as the questionable add-on. Though it would have been better if 14 had changed into 15 but then 15 tells them to pull recreating 14.
When I watched this episode I thought the bi-generation might finally be setting up the Valeyard!
@@DuskWolf_ It'd be great, especially knowing how menacing 10th could be when he wanted. But I doubt RTD would wanna go there with 14th.
@@DuskWolf_ Unfortunately, the Valeyard was introduced in "Trial of a Timelord" which was one of Pip and Jane Baker's stories and thus, like the Daleks with Terry Nation, they retained the rights to the character (in the contracts for classic Who, alien races, concepts and villains remained the intellectual property of the writer who introduced them if the idea didn't originate with production).
After Jane Baker died in 2020 with no descendants, it has become unclear who legally owns the Baker estate. Big Finish has had to cancel projects with the Rani (another of their creations) and abandon any plans for Valeyard stories because nobody knows who to ask for permission to use the characters - including the BBC.
That likely means anything created by Pip and Jane Baker for the show will never appear unless significant money is spent trying to unravel the legal issues or until they fall into public domain (which would be in 2090 since it happens 70 years after the death of the creator).
The only little hope that might be there is the inclusion of Melanie. Companions are often edge cases - Bob Baker retained the rights to K-9 because he introduced him as an original idea pitched to production, Johnny Byrne got royalties for every story with Nyssa because while she was an internal idea, the producers who suggested her as a character no longer worked for the BBC when the first of her episodes aired and so the rights reverted back to the writer. Mel was introduced in Terror of the Vervoids - a Pip and Jane Baker story. If she was their idea and now she's back then it could be that the BBC have quietly solved the legal issues....but more likely she wasn't their property and it doesn't mean anything.
It's nice to see an actual fair review of new Doctor who episodes. That's all I have to say.
"I ThOuGhT I WaS cLeVeR, I ThOuGhT I WaS cLeVeR"
That scene I thought was both funny and unsettling at the same time
Thankfully I managed to miss all of the leaks, so this was an interesting surprise. I gotta say, while definitely a weird regeneration, I don't think it'll matter much? Who does new wacky canon altering stuff so often that I don't really care about when it happens as long as it isn't insanely lore breaking (timeless child)
Agreed. I put this in the same category as the human meta crisis regeneration, though that Doctor was more like a human than a Time Lord, with no TARDIS. I think they made it clear that 14 won’t be going on world saving adventures, but recovering from the accumulated trauma since 10’s era. I despised the Timeless Child nonsense. I really hope they decide to make it some epic misdirection/lie of the Master’s or something.
The "oh well thats all right then" lives in my brain rent free since I saw episode. I hate it! (In the best way)
I always wished there would be an episode of Doctor Who where the outgoing and incoming doctors had an adventure together, and The Giggle did that for me, so I was very happy!
I really liked that too.
I think Council of Geeks has the best take on the Bigeneration : This works, but only just, because it gives us something far better narratively than we get otherwise, which is a lasting happy ending. 14 gets to live and have a real life and reap a reward for all he's done and all he's suffered, AND at the same time we get to jump ahead to the next incarnation who has no baggage, can go at this universe fresh. This isn't a return to 9 & Rose because 15 will not have a Time War, or a Flux, or any deaths to be depressed or broken over. 15 gets to start fresh. I like this idea. I'm a lore nerd, I love when Doctor WHO loops in the old, but at this point I think it needs to do new things, find new baddies, tell new stories, and this is a good start.
Of course this only works If you ignore all the dren RTD was saying about all regenerations bifurcating, that's just stupid. Just say there is a multiverse and be done with it already, I mean we already have the Axis of Insanity in the audios, just TV canonize it and everything is possible, no worries.
Anyways, my theory to fix anything that might be broken: 14 takes his time, heals up, knows he's ready, he lands his TARDIS inside a secret corner of 13's TARDIS right before she changes. He's fading, maybe he's a Watcher and fraying thin at this point, he slips up behind her as she regenerates and melds into her body, thus explaining the outfit change In Universe. That explains the old face, and it send 14s consciousness to the Edge. When the Bigeneration happens 15 comes out with all of 14s knowledge and healing experiences intact. He whacks the TARDIS and doesn't dup it, he just knocks the old 14 TARDIS outside of the original, and takes off in it, meaning there was always one TARDIS in a loop of sorts. Thoughts? Ideas? Have I cracked the code to fansplaining what the show should have shown? 😅
Multiverse scans more anyway what with Isaac Newton
It's a cop out tbh
btw, i believe RTD said during the commentary that 15's is the original tardis and 14 got the copy and that an upcoming story will clarify that 15's is the original (my mind immediately jumps to the fob watch from flux, potentially)
I think the 14th Doctor keeping a Tardis isn't as bad once you consider that he's essentially the rehab Doctor now. So he can go back and truly say goodbye to past companions and spend time with them as well. Without the Tardis, it would just be who's in modern day. Hell, it's even possible that 14 starts to regenerate into even older faces; like becoming 12 and finding and saying goodbye to Clara, or 11 and going to see Amy and Rory before they pass, etc. Even eventually becoming the Curator. Then he'll become the 15 Doctor after the entire rehab process in the same way that the War Doctor isn't the 9th Doctor. So now the new Doctor has truly healed from all of the wounds from 1-14. So it's better to take 14 living with Donna as a start to a very, very long process than it is to think he's just chillin with her until he eventually passes. Lol
I would like that. But I wish Susan would appear in the special
Yeah, I figured 14 would become the Curator too
@@yellowstalk6653 maybe that’s how it was like this. Bi generation for the Curator
i would love to see him go back and visit companions, but although he may be a rehab doctor, he is still the same person, so it would still be him crossing his own timeline, therefore the amount of potential paradoxes would be off the scale. besides i imagine there will be a fair few of the companions' actors that will feel they've done their time and decided to move on to other roles.
Sounds great to me. Love the idea that 14 eventually becomes the Curator.
Ok, so hear me out
What if, just as the Toymaker was going to blast 14 with the Mega Space Laser 5000, the TARDIS appeared, blocking the laser and piloted by 15, who steps out to join 14 to defeat the Toymaker in a (better) final battle, using 'Toymaker made things weird enough for us to interact and not blow up the universe/wipe our memories' as his reasoning, and proceeds to tap 14 out of being the doctor, allowing him to rest with the Nobles.
Then, the episode ends with an older 14, recuperated and having let go of all the baggage from his life, deciding to finally move on and regenerates into 15, who then pilots the TARDIS immediately to the top of UNIT HQ to battle the toymaker. We then follow 15 leaving behind Donna and 14 once more, where he promptly faints bc regeneration does that to you and we get some fun start to Season 14/Season 1.
I'm in two minds about the bi-regeneration. On a story level, I love it. It's a great way to let the Doctor rest and give them a fresh start simultaneously.
But on a meta level, it's given assholes online ammo to say "Oh, Ncuti Gatwa isn't _really_ The Doctor," and that's unfortunate. Even if I'm happy with what we got, I think I'd have preferred it if they just bit the bullet and went with a straight-forward regeneration.
Also, I haven't seen the video yet, so if Harbro said something similar, that's my bad.
That second criticism is on the "fans" and not the episode.
They would be saying that regardless
I don't think we should make shows to appease gutter-snipes who aren't real fans. They'll find something to hate no matter what gets written, seeing patterns in things that aren't there. Just tell the stories you want to tell. Wouldn't surprise me if RTD had the story idea before casting the role, in fact it seems most likely.
I mean he isn't though? Is the meta crisis doctor the doctor? I hate it for the same reason, but it isn't ammo for assholes to make shit up, that is literally how it is. It's Davies fault and it's bad writing. I guarantee this was only a thing because the BBC wanted insurance in case Gatwa didn't save the show
@@robbiemartin9312except now it's a valid criticism
@@R.senals_Arsenalyou have a bad world view. It seems like you're the type who loves the show irregardless and takes any valid criticism made as that person just not being a fan. Loving everything about something no matter how bad or good isn't being a fan, that's obsession. Calling anyone who criticizes something a gutter snipe is delusional. They don't want it to be made for them, they want it to be good. As a fan who watched the Chibnall era I'm in that camp
I think I'm fine with the bigeneration *_for now..._* it seems like Russell's comment about all the other Doctors bigenerating was just his headcanon and not something he specifically wanted to introduce into the lore, but even if he did, you can still sort of just ignore it I guess.
It’s also meant I think in a multiverse kinda sense, so it doesn’t happen in the timelines that we experience on screen but in another universe which could be connected to 7’s comments in tales of the TARDIS :)
The worst part is that the more the Bigeneration is explained, the more confusing it gets. If it just dealt with 14 and 15, I would’ve been more ok with it. But now we have all of the other Doctors running around and it completely ruins the impact of those actors leaving. Besides that, great special. NPH is fantastic as a goofy reimagined villain and the horror actually works. 8/10 by far the best of the 60th anniversary specials
To be fair the bit about all the other doctors isn’t in the show itself. Interviews with the showrunner aren’t inherently canon so you can choose whether or not to believe that happened.
There are many Doctors running around in many timelines I think it is all timey wimey stuff and it doesn't in any way effect other actors' leaving. There were all 12 Doctors saving Gallifrey in the 50th special, it didn't ruin it. I'm just happy Doctor get to have a closure and heal himself ❤ As someone dealing with depression I felt seen and I am super excited for the new Doctor Who adventures without having to grieve the 14th as I did for the last 13 Doctors so I will be more open the enjoy first season of 15th which I never could with other Doctors 😢
@@ey9198 this is different, considering that the rules of this are never properly explained. It’s a poor implementation of a plot device. I’m all happy for the Doctor to work out his guilt and trauma but I think there could’ve been a better way to go around it.
They could have explained that the bi-generation happened because of the Toymaker meddling with history and the Master's forced regeneration-takeover thing.
I am still incredibly excited for Ncuti. Oh my god he brought this amazing energy and I loved every second.
I was under the impression the bi-generation happened for the same reason the Toymaker was able to break into reality. The doctor invoked a myth at the edge of the universe. Bi-generation is a myth. The Toymaker made it happen by killing the doctor at that time of myths being made real.
@@astralwyrm3787- THAT makes more sense than anything Russell T Davies has said so far!
Unfortunately, this always happens and fans work out better storylines than the program creators ever thought up.
Hope you are right though!😊
What you said about 14 eventually turning into 15 after healing himself - YES this is how I took it too but I really REALLY wish it was more explicit because it's otherwise unnecessarily complicated.
But how would that even work? Then there would be two 15s?
I like the idea of Fenric being "the one who waits" but Sutekh also comes to mind.
I am still waiting for Omega to come back.
Isn’t it Rory?
I watched the Fenric story I thought it was really good if they did bring him back he could have more characterisation really
The unnamed being from the impossible planet?
@@Deckard325the Beast
I think it’s time to classify doctor again, classisc run, revived run and newwho which is really what this feels like. my cynical brain also just sees keeping David Tennant around as a safety net for when the show starts to wane again.
You tell that cynical side to butt out! Optimism is more fun!!
Davis said it's his head canon, not actual Canon that old doctors bi generated
I actually really like the bigeneration aspect. I don't understand how people don't get the concept: there was one Doctor, and now there's two. They're not clones. They're not fakes. There is no "original TARDIS". It's the same TARDIS. It's the same Doctor.
David's Doctor gets to live forever and at peace, finally getting the opportunity to live the life he claimed was "the one adventure he could never have".
Ncuti's Doctor gets to go on saving planets, fighting monsters, and being pretty sort of marvelous. Same energy. Only this time without the guilt and the baggage. I actually like that idea.
Yes, it closes the book on the 2005-2023 era of the show. That's not a bad thing.
What do you mean by live forever? That would be hell.
@@lucasoheyze4597 For us, yes. For a Time Lord, no.
If the 14th is still alive, then Ncuti's Doctor is a clone or copy of him still, since he is the not original version of the Doctor but instead split off from him.
This is why the Bi-regeneration is a bad idea, it paints a bad picture.
@@RomanHistoryFan476AD If you and your spouse give birth to identical twins, which one is the clone?
I'm dying to know.
@@mikebliss3153 Twins DNA is actually different from each other. The birth of twins is not a good comparison.
The 15th ain't a clone, if he was he would be identical in look to to the 14th. He's a split off part of him. No longer part of the main/original Doctor.
when RTD mentioned about all the doctors bi-generated was a joke like come on he said "7th doctor stuck in a morgue storage constantly regenerating"
Before the specials I expected RTD to ignore Chibnall's era, but I'm actually really impressed with how he managed to integrate it. The Doctor has a lot of things to work through, but at the same time we don't want to watch him get therapy for 3 seasons. So we let the post-therapy doctor carry on, and the pre-therapy doctor can stay on Earth. Presumably 14 will disintegrate away, and the timeline will continue. Fresh start AND sensible character development, perfect balance.
Also a lot of people are misinterpreting what RTD said about bigeneration. He was talking about alternate timelines, not retconning the past. He didn't really change anything.
The timeless child is still a thing the doctor is dealing with..this isnt post therapie doctor this us in dental doctor
There was a much simpler solution than bigeneration: 15 comes back to tell 14 it's time to rest. 14 settles down with Nobles, gets to experience what he's been fighting for (I love that line), and eventually Regenerates of old age, now a new Doctor whose healed of his old scars. That provides basically the same fresh start and _actual_ character development (as opposed to basically following a whole new character, as far as I remember the episode implying) without adding all this confusion.
I think I'm coming to terms with this bigeneration because it allows for an alternative Doctor. Even if 14 doesn't turn into Ncuti's 15, it allows for there to be other Doctor's not on the main timeline. The ideas that could come from that.
I agree with the A rating. However, in my opinion, RTJ didn't rewrite the Doctor any worse than what Chibnall did with the Timeless Child. Chibnall never followed up his story, which i think was bat guano bonkers. What were the ramifications of learning this??. While I'm not very sure of whether I'm ok with the bi-generation idea, it makes a bit more sense to me. This idea needs to return in future episodes and RTD should have more solid explanations for this notion.
The sheer scale of Barney Stinson's villain arc never ceases to amaze me.
8:08 I was not expecting a joke about destiny in a doctor who review lmfao
Mel time! 😢
I’m really hoping for a UNIT spinoff, they set it up a lot in this special and it’d be great for keeping the grounded earth environment like torchwood and Sarah Jane Adventures were during RTD1. With 14 being around still they could have him either be a consistent character or as the occasional character.
I think having 14 be a consistent character but have him perhaps be afraid to use the tardis fearing he’d end up just running away again and could work as a great way to keep him earth bound and continue the rehab growth and perhaps have a season finale where he has to use the tardis, I’d love to see more Tenant but I think he has to stay earth bound to let Ncuti really shine.
They said UNIT HQ will feature a lot in future seasons as the set was insanely expensive :D
Great idea.
when mel said "every single one of you is fantastic" i couldn't help but think of the 9th doctor
I do sorta like the idea that the presence of the Toymaker causes the rules of reality to be a little looser, even if that could have been explained a little more (or maybe have Bigeneration mentioned during some speech/rant/ramble by the doctor for the Not-Thing Doctor.)
.
When the Bigeneration first happened, i had this weird feeling that after they beat the toymaker they were going to have to finish the game between them, Like even thought they're both the doctor, only one of them can win. And then 14 would lose and fade/die/be banished or something.
I loved the toymaker, and I really hope they bring him back much faster than last time (I'd rather not wait till I'm in my 70s, lol)
Re: the card game.
The game is cutting the deck. You’re not meant to take it from the top. You’re meant to cut it at a random point of your choice.
That wasn’t cheating or even being tricky within the rules. It’s what you’re meant to do.
The only other show that could get away with a wacky scene like the Toymaker dance and yet keep the stakes high was an underappreciated series by Fargo showrunner Noah Hawley called Legion. I highly recommend it.
Legion was one of the wilder Marvel shows ever made, but I kinda wish the lead hadn't changed how he did, even though I get it tells a better story the way it went.
I just finished The Giggle which concluded my FIRST experience with Doctor Who which started back in September with "Rose". I binged 18 years of episodes, specials, minisodes and whatnot because I loved the show to bits.
And with all that said - and Tennant being probably my favorite of all the Revival Doctors - The Giggle felt like... it was almost like it was made for someone who just did what I did. I get all your points and agree to them, but I could only sit there with the biggest smile on my face.
I had to think back of 10 speaking of "this is what I get" and "this is my reward" and I was happy that this time he got the cake and got to eat it, too. It cut the Toymaker a bit short, I admit, but damn I can't help myself. I loved it. All the 60th anniversary specials just were an amazing encore. But I understand everyone who (pun intended) feels different about it.
Welcome to the greatest adventure series of all time!
@@R.senals_Arsenal Hey, thank you. :) So far I am having a great time with the show. Although it's time for a little break now. After that massive binge I am running a bit on fumes myself. I think I'm gonna resume after 15s first season has fully aired. :)
There are so many talented actors and im sure many.of them could have done a great depiction of the Celestial Toymaker, but man NPH absolutely killed it and made it his own. Not many people can go that camp without damaging the story or sucking you out of, but damn. I know we may see him again down the line but i feel robbed for not having a regular recurring role for him
Since you said you're unfamiliar with NPH's work. He's done tons of roles just like this. Not so much with mystic powers, but the Toymaker's personality.
Like watch a few seconds of him on How I Met Your Mother, Harold & Kumar, or Series of Unfortunate Events.
Dr. Horrible.
I think the not things in wild blue yonder are way creepier than the puppets here. Just something about things being the wrong size that creeps me out.
My theory is that 14 will end up becoming the Timeless Child, meaning that the Doctor can be the Timeless Child but also be born naturally on Gallifrey. Which also explains why the Fugitive Doctor has a police box.
The best parts are: "Hi, my name is donna, I think you're a goner." and the SPICE UP YA LIFE scene.
I find the bi-regeneration a great look at a Time Lord myth actually being based on real event(s) from the distant past. We are so accustomed to the regenerations as presented from the Doctor’s perspective but rarely in the perspective of Time Lords writ large.
We’ve come to expect a traumatic experience where the Doctor spends a fair enough of the post-regeneration episode spent commenting on their appearance, loss of memory/self, or both. But that’s not, apparently, the typical Time Lord experience. I point to the regenerations of Romana, River Song & the General in 12’s Hell Sent.
Following the Key to Time arc (and Mary Tammy’s departure), Romana went through a number of bodies to show the Doctor before deciding on a specific one (a copy of Princess Astra - then Tom Baker’s wife).
When Mel regenerated into River, there was no trauma or loss of self and the preening over her new body was more indicative of her warped personality.
Perhaps the most straightforward regeneration of a Time Lord was when the male General was “killed” by the Doctor & regenerated into a woman and didn’t miss a beat. The Doctor explained to a horrified Clara that he hadn’t “killed” the General since death for the Time Lords was a type of manflu.
With regard to each Doctor having multiple timelines, the notion is not all that new. Looking back 40 years to the 20th anniversary, the Doctors were pulled from “their” time lines (indicating each had separate time lines) to participate in The Five Doctors (except poor 4 who was stuck in a looping section of Shada).
The upside of the bi-regenerations include:
- potential canon/B-canon if this is related to the Doctor being the Timeless Child (perhaps the basis of the myth)
- opportunities for B-canon adventures of the Doctors who timelines continued unseen/unknown from what is known as canon
- having the most popular Doctor pop into any potential UNIT or Sarah Jane-esque program (rumored to be vehicle for Mel but who knows with her working for UNIT)
It's bullshit they came up with on the spot so Russell could have his cake and eat it to. No other thought or logic went into it. He just wanted to keep both David and Ncuti, so he pulled bi-generation out of his ass.
Doctor Who feels like terrible fanfiction now. Except its the original writer....
The Toymaker didn't cause the bi-generation, the Doctors only mean that in so much as the Toymaker's shot led to it. Everybody, including the Toymaker, was confused (except 15, I guess, but he was still surprised).
To your point about it taking away all the emotion, the idea that every past doctor has gone off on their own separate timeline to continue living and aging, and yes that’s what Russell said… but wasn’t one of Ncuti’s first lines about bi-generation being a myth? And didn’t 15 later go on to tell 14 that he was ok because 14 went and fixed himself? Isn’t the inference from all of that that 14 does whatever he does, psychologically repairs, then at some point subsequently regenerates into 15? That’s how I understood it. Are we taking some throwaway brief comment that RTD made during a commentary recording to override what we literally just saw on screen? Or did I just misinterpret the whole thing?
Thank you.
Here's my research that you should make a video about.
When a Time Lord is dying - either due to old age or mortal injury - they are able to use a process called regeneration, gaining a new healthy body.
With this regeneration:
The Doctor has regrown lost limbs while his lost limb regenerated the entire missing body of the Doctor
Got a superhuman strength boost during regeneration to knock down a steel doors
Once used his regeneration energy to destroy a Dalek Saucer and damaged his TARDIS
Underwent a bi-generation, in which he was split into two versions; himself
If a Time Lord dies during regeneration, that ends the process permanently.
One thing I would like to bring up is that in the commentary for the episode, Russel said that there is a future episode that proves Ncuti has the original TARDIS and not a copy.
Another thing I would like to say is that I think the general audience won't really think much about the bigeneration (and will probably have mostly forgotten about it by the time The Church on Ruby Road airs). Fans and attention-seeking reactionaries will focus a lot of time into the bigeneration but the grand majority of the audience base likely don't care much. Even though this isn't the most rigorous metric, the Audience Appreciation Index for The Giggle is an 85, the best of the 3 specials and also the best in the show since Series 10's World Enough and Time, 6 years ago! That at least suggests the episode was well-regarded and the ending didn't negatively affect things which gives me hope that the audience has accepted Ncuti as the Doctor despite his unique introduction.
I personally think the bigeneration thing itself is fine for the most part and really should've been explained better. I think the episode does try to tell us that 15 is an older version of the Doctor from the future but it just wasn't really explained well. The fact 14 keeps his TARDIS does kind of drive me the wrong way but keeping its usage to holidays and small trips, as suggested in the episode, is better than him just going on a standard Doctor adventure.
I wish the best of luck to Ncuti as the Doctor, I have high hopes and I hope he wins over the audience (and any remaining people who weren't hooked on him at the end of The Giggle). He definitely left a great impression on me at least, I'm excited for The Church on Ruby Road!
14's Tardis does remind me more of a camper van
@@Venemofthe888 That's a good comparison!
If we are assuming that 14 will eventually regenerate properly into 15 before being pulled back into the bigeneration from the other side then the same is true for the tardis. It’s not the original tardis and a copy of it, it’s the 14’s current tardis and 15’s future tardis. 15 is using the toymakers powers to pull is own tardis through time behind himself.
I too think it would have been cleaner for the lore to just have the future version show up. But as long as this is just timey-wimey stuff I’m fine it. Every version of the doctor is out there having adventures throughout all of time anyway. So this doesn’t really change too much.
This episode basically combiney my two earlier reviews, like the Star Beast it's a generally good episode and like Wild Blue Yonder it had that whimsical, cosmic wonder and chaos that Doctor Who had been lacking.
Neil Patrick Harris smashed it, against my expectations if I'm being honest.
I don't know how to feel about "Bi-Generation" yet, but that's a classic RTD move, I guess.
Really had my fun with this episode, and it's been a time since Docto Who made me feel that way! :)
I really love Donna getting in her layman/temp problem solving scene in again, like in Sontaran Stratagem. The sheet music thing is probably more like something people would see eventually anyway (especially Mel) but I always loved it as a feature of her series.
And the direct establishment of her being the fastest typist in London (graduated from Chiswick!), then all of UNIT accepting that is brilliant.
I like how Kate tells them to surround the toymaker’s box with salt
I like to think that the 15th Doctor's TARDIS is actually the same TARDIS further in its timeline. I still think it feels weird
I fell in love with The Toymaker. Definitelly one of the best villans in Doctor Who history in my eyes. Patric Harris absolutely stole the show. I also lost my shit in the doll scene when Donna literally girlbossed the doll to death lol
NPH is amazing in every role. Absolutely loved him in this. They even found a way to let some Broadway into the role. Donna was a badass through all of these specials. 💙
I loved this episode. The Toymaker as a concept fascinated me ever since I heard about him. I never saw the original story from the 1st Doctor's era so I kinda could enter this episode completely fresh only knowing he was an god-like entity from another dimension, like Q from Star Trekm only much more sinister. (Side note: imagine the Doctor meeting Q - that would be the crossover I want to see!).
I wonder when you will review series 10 - 13 since Doctor Who is back now and you'll probably review the new season first.
The scene where NPH refuses to travel with the Doctor reminds me of that spiderman meme lol
"I dont *want* to cure cancer. I *want* to turn people into dinosaurs!"
The Toymaker's little dance number in UNIT had major-league Everything, Everywhere, All At Once vibes to me. Which was great, because I loved that movie.
I really hope that the bigeneration is just a timy wimy thing. Bringing the next doctor into the universe, so that the current one can rest. If the tardis wasnt duplicated, i would have accepted this theory as cannon.
Also, i kinda love that the tardis has more presence as a 'character'. Because cg is more accessable now, there are more animations, and they did more stuff with it. So thats a plus for me
I hope Tennant comes back in the "Season 1" Finale, helps save the day but loses his TARDIS in the process, so is therefore 'stuck' on Earth as a way to stop everyone asking why we're not following him around instead.
Destiny saying "it's mel time" after she left him is so funny now
This felt like too much of a good thing, and not enough heartbreak. Of course endings feel better when they're tied up clean, but that's why Doctor Who was always so impactful it wasn't what you expected, and you FELT the loss. I think he should have had to let go of the old girl. I'm happy to see 14 happy, but that's bc it's what I wanted. But the best lesson Doctor Who ever taught me was that sometimes life doesn't give you what you want, but what you need, and it's better for that. I still loved it though 😭 thanks for the hard work bud💙
"not enough heartbreak" Would you have preferred it if 14 went to an island, was depressed, drank green milk then died?
@@killgriffinnow throw in some dysentery, and we're golden 🤸🏼♂️ no one cries harder than me watching doccy sad
I really don’t understand the constant desire for constant angst by other fans. Doctor Who is so constantly filled with tragedy… having things turn out relatively well for once is a breath of fresh air.
@@addyvalencia All love here, just putting my voice out there. I don't like being heartbroken, I'm just stating it's value✨ Emotional pain makes you empathetic, intuitive, and more aware of another persons perspective. My husband and I have watched DW since we were 12 and the most devastating stories were the most impactful and our favorites. As a 30yo mother now; I'm m grateful to have gone through the pain, I learned, loved, and grew. It made us better spouses, parents, and people.🖤
With regards to RTD’s comments on other Doctors bi-generating I think you’re taking it a little too seriously. He said that it’s his theory/belief that the others all bi-generated too, in a random behind the scenes interview. That doesn’t make it even slightly canon imo, if he wanted to to be considered as such, he’s the show runner, he would have made that clear in the main show and wouldn’t have called it a personal theory.
In my view Ncuti had the absolute strongest first couple scenes following their regeneration of NuWho (except maybe Eccleston). Of course there's the benefit of not having to set up the character and the episode narrative at the same time (which particularly hurt 6, 12 and 13).
The character of 15 just feels formed, introduced, and endearing immediately with none of the elements feeling forced.
It makes me wonder if future regenerations should forego being done in the final few minutes of a series.
I haven't seen the 6th/7th doctors eras but i love bonnie Langford as an actress and am glad to see her on screen again
Melanie Bush is, quite rightly, derided as one of the most useless companions ever. I am glad she gets this shot at redemption.
Yes guys, Go smash that like button.
that dialogue about 15 being fine because 14 fixes himself was a deliberately ambiguous line inserted because russell t davies knew fans wouldn't accept bi-generation as a concept & would've found some way to headcanon it away anyway. fans can believe it's all timey wimey and that 14 will eventually change into 15 but for the majority of the casual audience it doesn't matter. they loved this regeneration & in my view it actually helps ncuti that we didn't have to say goodbye to dt & that he actually passes the torch in a very literal way
Interviews aren't canon
He just really meant when he said
"I don't wanna go"
4:29 Kate Stewart's paranoia isn't for no reason - paranoia is an absolutely integral part of her world and what UNIT does. The difference is, this is her paranoia ramped up by the Giggle.
The ball game reminded me of the first David Tennant adventure when he defeated the villain by chucking a satsuma around.
I really enjoyed it. I honestly could be excited for the reboot but I've been let down too many times before. Hopefully the writing will be decent...👍
Davies has made it clear that 14 won’t be coming back, at least not anytime soon and the two Tardis’ are pretty much the same I think
David Tennant, to put in a gaming metaphor, is the green hill zone of doctor who, the kanto region of the series, that well known iconic thing that always come back no matter if the fans are tired to see it again.
"I jigsaw out of your history"
My favorite moment.
i personally really like the idea of bi-generation. it was a great symbolic way of letting the doctors past rest. almost like there was so much that happened to him and so much hurt that he needs to stop and address that this needed to happen in order for the doctor to be free from the burdens that his past has given him. it also allows the 15th doctor to start fresh having fully put his past to rest. I also think this means that 14 stays as he is for the rest of his life, and if he puts himself in harms way again he would probably die. My theory is that he can no longer regenerate, that the power of regeneration was literally pulled out of him when 15 was and 15 will continue on with the rest of the regenerations that the doctor has left.
Russel confirmed Ncuti;'s is the original tardis. They both have the original tardis, He said theres a episode in series 14 that proves that He has the original tardis
Part of me really hopes for the continuity that The One Who Waits is the same entity as described in Torchwood who Owen and others have described sitting in the darkness just beyond their consciousness.
I like the bigeneration, simply because I like multi-doctor episodes, and it very conveniently plays into the fact that the actors age, this sweeps that under the rug now. Multiple Tardis's might be a bit much, I would have probably preferred just one Tardis which would explain why they don't meet up frequently as it's gotta be unusual circumstances. But I can live with that if it means we have a chance to see Peter Davison or Colin Baker etc showing up in random episodes. Although the advantage of multiple Tardis is that they can do actual live action untold tales of the doctor episodes, something I was assuming would only be done with animated episodes. (And yes Davies has said that the bigeneration implies it happened to all the previous doctors or something like that. )
The 15ths first line" I'm me, I'm finally me"! Does that mean at some point the 14th opens the fob watch and gets all the memories back. The 15th said it's rehab out of order and then he'll eventually somehow regenerate into the 15th back at the 60th somehow. Timey-Wimey
14 should've gotten an ARDIS (no T for time) or any variation of an under powered or disabled Tardis. Giving the new Tardis to 15 does the new doctor dirty. I think I'll be okay with bigeneration if the split timeline merge and 14 indeed becomes 15.
My opinion on the Bigeneration was that since it’s an established thing that different incarnations of a Timelord will have different personalities (at least to some extent) the 14th Doctor needed to slow down and process his trauma, while the 15th Doctor was perfectly mentally capable of going off on more adventures and dealing with grief in a different way. As an Autistic person it really helped me understand a lot about the human condition; I’ve had a lot of trouble understanding how, if we’re all humans, how different people react to the same things in different ways. Like, 2 computers wouldn’t run the same line of code in 2 different ways, but with humans, even though we’re all so similar (we all basically look the same, our DNA is like 99.99998% the same, even across different races, but we still have so many differences. For example, my dad is a huge extrovert, whereas I’m a huge introvert, and it’s genuinely driven me to tears before trying to understand how the things that energize him and make him happy (being in crowds, going to parties, hanging out with friends for hours and days at a time, making small talk, etc.) are the same things that absolutely drain and stress me out to no end, and vice versa. So seeing two different variations of the same person (the Doctor) needing to deal with his trauma in two totally different ways really helped me process and understand the fact that we can have our differences, even though we’re still so similar. Just my two sense.
I leave this comment is not to talk down to you (so don't take this the wrong way)
Human being is created to be adaptive to their environment, for example if they touch a hot stove top in the past, they will be more cautious next time doing related activities
While you are right that every human is genetically similar, they still don't share the same experience and experience is what dictate most of our reaction to different event in our life
I understand. I'm not autistic (that I know of) and I still get bewildered by what other people find entertaining or fun, when often the opposite is true for me. I try not to get frustrated with others but it does happen on occasion. - pockets your two cents for later understanding. 😉
In a way, I do like the bigeneration (tho not for every doctor). In the Star beast, Rose shares Donna’s burden. A repeated theme throughout the specials is that the doctor’s mind is too big to process, so what’s better than to actually be able to talk to yourself. They share that burden now, and even just having another person who understands you takes a lot of weight off your shoulders.
On here I saw some people suggest it’s 15’s future incarnation being pulled through, which I think is an interesting idea. Allowing the broken part of himself to heal while still being able to run off. And eventually merging all that learned experience back into himself when he’s ready.
Ultimately, I really don’t want tenant back. I’ve already falling in love with Ncuti and I really don’t want to see him get undercut by the fan favorite. Chibnall already managed to screw up a lady doctor, even with a great actress. I don’t want to see the same thing happen again
Edit: I’m also just glad that RDT is lightening the doctor again. I think RTD set up the doctor to deal with that trauma, and moffat threw it in the mud, swirled it around with a stick, and stomped on it, and gave the doctor so much goddamn anger and hate with nowhere to go with it. So yeah, I think in the circumstances, without having to go though an entire series worth of sorting out trauma, the healing through shared minds/bigeneration is a decently elegant solution to restart
The common form of the proverb until recently was "have your cake and eat it".
Kind of hate how the three 60th anniversary episodes don’t feel connected at all it’s not part 1 2 and 3 it’s just three episodes
And don't feel as big as the 50th, they feel celebrating RTD'S time than the whole show.
There is mel returning, celebrating 6 and 7.
There is the celestial toymaker, celebrating the 60s
There is obviously catherine tate and david tennant returning, celebrating the RTD 1 era.
There is The Meep which celebrates the comics.
I think there's alot of celebration.
not gonna think about the implications of unit now having a reliable doctor who (in theory) will stay at this one place and not really move from there
This was the one episode I felt the runtime should have been at least 10 minutes longer. I got a bit of a rushed feeling from it.
I mean I get it, he's sort of Mxyzptlk and a child-friendly Pennywise rolled into one. And they do set it up with him saying that it's the first game. But it sort of felt like they wrote themselves into a corner. Wen we got two doctors I was expecting them to combined be able to play a sort of mind game and win on a technicality he hadn't accounted for in a trickster-esque way. But I was able to quickly let it go and just enjoy it for what it was. He was going to lose anyway, so by resolving that part rather quickly. They had time for all the rest the episode needed to do in less than 1 hour.
I feel that The Doctors outburst about how the giggle isn't the reason we're violent and all that came outta left field way too hard. While I agree he would say something like that, it would be pulled out of him by an antagonist or someone egotistical directly opposing the idea. The moment felt less like the Doctor reminding us not to use it as an excuse and more of a random outburst from Russel, yelling at us without anybody even instigating the argument. Just didn't feel natural for him to say it with the amount of venom he did, especially to all of his HUMAN ALLIES that are not only trying to stop it but also didn't even say what he's disproving.
Half of the whole show feels like if Russell were talking to us recently
I always thought the Doctor was being affected by the giggle, I know it ain't possible cus he's not human, but it did come a bit from nowhere
@arcanewarrior863, that would have been way more interesting. I hadn't thought of that option, but I did think RTD included the speech to set the Doctor up to realise that he too thinks he is right all the time, only to later realise he is not. But no just... no reason 😅
Disagree. Worked well for me. Very 9th Doctor to call humans stupid apes, so no complaints here. It was all true, so at least it wasn't a fawning sunshine blow about humanity being super awesome.
I enjoyed it well enough until Fifteen appeared (sad because he was great) largely for the reasons you said. I didn't want Tennant back and now it feels like RTD is elevating him above the other Doctors.
It's funny really. People always say Moff can't kill characters yet here's RTD unable to just let the David Tennant regenerate normally for the second time. (And as an aside, I don't think Moff has that problem. Unlike RTD and Chibs, he ended his companion's stories. Maybe in a roundabout way I grant but he never left the implication that they'd ever return.)
And in general, my big complaint about all three was that they didn't feel epic enough for an anniversary special. They just felt like rejected scripts for the 2009 Specials filmed to fill time. The Series 4 reunion special I so dreaded when RTD was announced to return. Reminded of how "Silver Nemesis" bears the anniversary tag but could realistically have just been a one in a million DW story.
NPH was brilliant as the Celestial Toymaker. Which made up for a lot of flaws.
Davies has already said that there will be proof in a later episode that it's the same TARDIS.
RTD said that 15 gets the original Tardis, something will be said in the new series to indicate this.
The toymaker dance scene was just a rip off of Jobu Tupaki's identical scene in Everything everywhere all at once, down to the wacky music and dancing and turning people into balloons and confetti, the scenes are identical.
Once again a spot on and balanced review that totally reflects my own view too
I think it would have been better if all 3 parts were connected.
The Toymaker could have had some influence over the doctor somehow and made him regenerate into the 10th doctor again. Eventually he runs back into Donna and Rose and has to confront the starbeast who is actually one of the toymakers creations which would have made the hiding in the plush toy scene more thematic. Blah blah blah metacrisis, split between the two. Wild blue yonder could have instead just introduced the toymaker as the doctor explains that he is the only one who could remove the metacrisis problem due to his level of power
So they have a game, the doctor loses, declares 1 all but the toymaker still gets his prize and gets full power over reality.
Once he kills 14, we get Alonzi followed by a proper regeneration into 15 and wrap everything up in some sort of creative goofy game of wit and stratergy, sending the toymaker away for good
4:08 for a second I thought this was the beginning of a Ground News sponsorship add.