In a previous campaign, the bard put a bunch of enemies in a Forcecage, and the cleric cast Insect Plague on the area. They were locked in a box and eaten alive by locusts. When it was done, the necromancer in the group turned to them and said, "You people are sick."
I know right necromancer's get a lot of shit about being evil. When conjurer's summons and enslaving living thinking creatures. Evoker's are burning, freezing, pouring acid, shocking, people to death in some of the most worst way possible. Illusist are driving people insane or just psychly scrambling there mines. I can keep going but there are so many messed up way to go compared to what necromancy does.
Noble Knight: "I shall get my vengeance on those that murdered my brother!" Ranger: "You have my bow." Barbarian: "And my axe!" Necromancer: "And your brother."
I could see a storyline thing with a Cleric and a Necromancy wizard arguing over the whole necromancy thing, when the wizard just drops that the cleric does similar thing, using magic to manipulate the life force of their allies to keep them alive, walking off smirking while the cleric and everyone else is just standing there slack jawed. lol, sounds like something that should be wrong, but too logical to ignore. :)
That's my point in how Magic, no matter the school, has no alignment. While a spell might create an evil or divine creature, it does not make the magic itself evil or good. Just as a Cursed Sword is just a sword, a tool used by man. Be it for evil purposes or to slay the wicked as the hero sacrifices himself to wield such a Cursed tool. The sword, while affected by evil, unless it possesses sentience, cannot be declared evil. Same goes for Cleric Spells. What prevents a Cleric who worships a dark god of wickedness from using Divine Healing Spells to keep their wicked forces fighting the forces of good? Nothing. Does that mean the Healing Spells are Evil? No, they were used in an evil manner.
I had a variant on that. A necromancer cleric whose healing spells had a RP side effect of HURTING a lot. He said that something clerics of the light didn't bother mentioning was the enchantment/charm component of healing that suppressed pain, and potentially altered personality and beliefs. Healing that HURT was more honest. After all, who would trust a necromancer to mess with their minds in any case?
The morality of Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting depends on how hostile the local plant life is. if you've got a circle of Malarite druids bent on turning a frontier town into fertilizer and Wild Hunting the survivors, dropping a Horrid Wilting seems like a wonderful idea. Honestly, it's a more surgical option than fireball, because Horrid Wilting just defoliates 30 feet of angry trees, whereas fire tends to spread. Just, uh, kindly intercept them before they're standing on your farmland.
Personally, I’m an old school 2e player, where Skeletons and Zombies were unaligned/true neutral (and were just essentially constructs animated by negative energy), so my own personal belief is that the creation of non-sentient undead isn’t necessarily evil. Creation of sentient undead, where you are warping their soul etc is absolutely evil, but non-sentient? Not really. For me, the creation of non-sentient undead depends on context, like your gray necromancy spells. Do you have the permission of the corpse, or the corpse’s next of kin? Why are you animating the corpse? and so on and so forth. The Dustmen from the Planescape setting for example. They create contracts with people to animate their bodies after their death, they use the animated corpses to do menial labour, like delivering messages or moving crates, etc. While I certainly wouldn’t call the Dustmen good, they absolutely aren’t evil.
I don't know I think it was even clearer in earlier editions. Animating the dead was done with negative energy from from the negative energy plane. An evil place and a dark energy. Nerdarchist Dave
In my world necromancers are outlawed due to past misuse of raising undead. Just casting a necromancy spell (other that the ones that raise creatures) are ok, as they are viewed no differently from other damage causing spells. The act of raising undead is considered evil in my world. If you raise a bunch of skeletons and leave, they will attack people that come near them so definitely evil. I've never seen a fireball waiting around for someone to show up (glyphs excluded) and attack.
@@Grim-oc9fw well grim it seems you didnt fully play either because my 2nd edition book says neutral wizards can raise entire armies in times of trouble and good necromancers can only do so with permission from the deceased/deity. You had no need to be so dismissive. a 3+ paragraph comment that you only respond to with disagree and then follow it sycophant praise of the channel just shows your rude. Its clear in 2nd edition atleast that it was left more up to the player/dm to decide how necromancy would be used in each case. it seems like we as players got stuck on the only evil necromancers part of it because when we played 2nd edition we were alot worse at story construction and im thinking alot of our preconeived notions of dnd came about because we started playing at a time when no one knew all the rules and everyone adapted to their own groups variant. 2nd edition is the only manual iv looked at so far that clearly talks about good neutral and evil uses for skeletons. 5th edition has been streamlined for ease of use. so the confusing are undead always evil fits as the official stance but lacks any depth to explore. if you see an undead its evil no need to talk. vs was this undead raised willingly or not. is it a guardian or a victim. If im in a part of adventurers and one of them knows animate dead and were trying to save the nation. yeah if i die halfway through raise my corpse because this is important.
You know, most of those grey abilities are just different flavors of attack spell. I know a bunch of other people have said it, but all those spells like chill touch and even contagion are no different than other offensive spells. What makes causing direct decay and wounds to an enemy more evil than burning them to death? What makes giving a disease worse than freezing someone alive, paralyzing with shock, or even sending someone to another dimension. I know it was said, and you guys aknowldged it a little, but eh
Nerdarchy I do wish they would make a 5e Book of Vile Darkness and Exhaled Deeds. They would open a lot of doors for villains, Saints, and everything in between without home-brewing it.
"Send out the archers!" "But, Sir, they're all dead!" "Well, wake their asses up and send them back out anyway!" Gives me the feels of a Monty Python kind of vibe. 😂
Why was life transference from Xanathar’s guide not talked about, it’s probably the only ‘white’ wizard necromancy spell where the caster is giving their life to someone else?
It was on our list. Thought we mentioned it. That being said the video is already 22 minutes long. It would be easy to pick out a bunch of topics to talk about more. Before you know it we've got 22 hour long video. Life Tranference is definitely a good call for good necromancy. Nerdarchist Dave
The way I see it, using necromancy is like using nuclear power. Something that is in its basest form going to cause harm, but has potential to help people.
A necromancer arrives in a village, accompanied an animated corpse. The villagers are horrified to see it's the son of the local blacksmith, who left the village a year before to seek adventure. The blacksmith leads the mob in attacking the necromancer. The necromancer's final words; "Tom just wanted to come home." After contacting the spirit of Tom & learning what happened, the local priest contacted his superiors who agreed to raise both him & the necromancer, who remained in the village for a while as an honoured guest. And that's how Keris the Merciful was introduced to the party when they rocked up in town hearing about a skilled wizard for hire.
Necro Bard makes me think of the necromancers in the Dresden Files, having to drum to keep control of their zombies like a magical heartbeat... except, you know, more emo
Thank you guys so much for this lol. Love the death cleric and necromancers! :D can you do a D&d build? The Lord of necromancy! Maybe a combination of both classes? Or druid of spores? What are your guys thoughts of the other two classes as there perspective of the necromancer?
@@Nerdarchy awesome thank you! The whole white, grey, and black necromancy was a great idea. I like the lawful neutral alignment so I think that one would be more willing to use all of the different kinds. But that's my opinion.
Necromancer from lv 6 to lv 20 So lets do a little calculation? 3 x Animate Dead = 12 zombies Now that may seem minor but at level six that is. 12 Zombies x 1d6 + 3/7 = 12d6 damage + 36/84 12 Zombies x 22 + 6 = 336 hp How about down the road, lets look at level 10? 3 x lv 3 Animate Dead = 12 zombies 3 x lv 4 Animate Dead = 18 zombies 2 x lv 5 Animate Dead = 16 zombies For a total of 46 zombies You see where this is going don’t you friend? 46 Zombies x 1d6 + 4/8 = 46d6 damage + 184/368 46 Zombies x 22 + 10 = 1,472 hp Now what about even further at level 20? 4 x lv 3 Animate Dead = 16 zombies 3 x lv 4 Animate Dead = 18 zombies 3 x lv 5 Animate Dead = 24 zombies 2 x lv 6 Animate Dead = 20 zombies 2 x lv 7 Animate Dead = 24 zombies 1 x lv 8 Animate Dead = 12 zombies 1 x lv 9 Animate Dead = 14 zombies For a total of 128 zombies Yes, you have a small army don’t you? 128 Zombies x 1d6 + 6/11 = 128d6 damage + 768/1,408 128 Zombies x 22 + 20 = 5,376 hp I can’t imagine any pathetic paladins or foolhardy clerics will dare to touch you. Besides this isn’t even including magic items or spells which might allow you to grow your army indefinitely like the wish spell and finger of death, then there is the Staff of the Forgotten and the Wand of Orcus. Now if you want a true army at your heel; as a necromancer I prefer the ever faithful skeleton. Raise them then kit them out, and once you have a kingdom underfoot have them forge their own shields, longswords, and plate armor. Kitted out Zombie: 1d6 melee damage 42 hp 8 ac Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 plus the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead. Kitted out Skeleton: 1d8 melee or 1d6 ranged damage 32 hp 20 ac Assuming you have crafted yourself a proper necromancer artifact with the soul of a powerful spellcaster or entity. You can look forward to many proper minions. (CR 1 to 2) Kitted out Strahd Zombie: 1d4 + 2d6 melee damage 50 hp 8 ac Loathsome Limbs: Whenever the zombie takes at least 5 bludgeoning or slashing damage at one time, roll a d20 to determine what else happens to it: 1-8: One leg is severed from the zombie if it has any legs left. 9-16: One arm is severed from the zombie if it has any arms left. 17-20: The zombie is decapitated. Kitted out Ogre Zombie: 2d8 melee damage 105 hp 18 ac Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 plus the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead. Kitted out Minotaur Skeleton: 2d12 melee damage 2d8 - 4d8 Gore Damage 87 hp 18 ac Then again, don’t forget about your pet with Command Undead, 11 or less intelligent undead are yours to command forever. Kitted out Giant Skeleton: 9d6 melee damage or 3d10 ranged damage 135 hp 20 ac Evasion: If the skeleton is subjected to an effect that allows it to make a saving throw to take only half damage , it instead takes no damage if it succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if it fails. Magic Resistance: The skeleton has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects. Turn Immunity: The skeleton is immune to effects that turn undead. Kitted out Greater Zombie: 2d6 melee damage 117 hp 15 ac Turn Resistance: The zombie has advantage on saving throws against any effect that turns undead. Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the zombie to O hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 plus the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the Greater Zombie drops to 1 hit point instead. Kitted out Mummy Lord: 3d6 melee damage + effect 117 hp 20 ac Magic Resistance: The mummy lord has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects. Rejuvenation: A destroyed mummy lord gains a new body in 24 hours if its heart is intact, regaining all its hit points and becoming active again. The new body appears within 5 feet of the mummy lord's heart. Spellcasting: The mummy lord is a 10th-level cleric. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 17, +9 to hit with spell attacks). Cantrips (at will): sacred flame, thaumaturgy 1st level (4 slots) 2nd level (3 slots) 3rd level (3 slots) 4th level (3 slots) 5th level (2 slots) 6th level (1 slot) Kitted out Vampire Spawn: 2d8 melee damage or 2d6 ranged 102 hp 20 ac Regeneration: The vampire regains 10 hit points at the start of its turn if it has at least 1 hit point and isn't in sun light or running water. If the vampire takes radiant damage or damage from holy water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn. Spider Climb: The vampire can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check. Forbiddance: The vampire can't enter a residence without an invitation from one of the occupants. Harmed by Running Water: Takes 20 acid damage when it ends its turn in running water. Stake to the Heart: Destroyed if a piercing weapon made of wood is driven into its heart while it is incapacitated in its resting place. Sunlight Hypersensitivity: The vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks. My personal suggestion? I’d go with the kitted out Giant Skeleton if you are looking for raw power. Though personally I prefer the Mummy Lord, an undead minion you can actually have an intellectual discussion with is quite nice. That and assuming you’re still mortal by the time you acquire this minion you should replace your heart with its; there is no safer place for it. That is all the knowledge I will impart for now.
one of my fav characters ive ever made is my necromancer Thalia The Timid. She is a good necromancer who wants to use necromancy for the betterment of people and using them as workers for dangerous tasks or sentries/guards or even using them as labor. To her she wasn't manipulating souls she was working a long dead lump of meat as a puppet and causing it to do things for her. We had a cleric in the group who obviously disapproved and gave her crap for her usage of necromancy. Thalia pointed out the hypocrisy of that seeing the cleric she had inflict wounds, revivify, etc and was essentially playing god. Maybe one of our party members who fell in battle found peace on the other side, saw dead loved ones etc and was then suddenly ripped back from that everlasting peace and forced into their body. Clerics can also cast animate dead and no one really gives them crap for it which is ridiculous and unfair. Especially since she used her necromancy to help people.
I agree with you but rasing dead is inherently evil just because evil is q tangible and measurable thing in dnd, even if you use the zombies to pet puppies and plant flowers they are still powered by negative energy
@@MFinGonzo not technically. The spell functions the same way as animate object, you put your magic into a corpse and essentially it "powers it". No where does it state that it's with negative energy, and by your logic spells like reviving, resurrection, etc etc would be considered evil.
I don't know why but all this talk about how evil necromancer spells may or may not be has gotten me in the mood to make a chaotic evil necromancer bard.
I had a conflict in my campaign between necromantic clerics who believed the dead should serve the living, and necromantic wizards, who treated life and death as a source of power, and undeath immortality was the ultimate goal.
So what about the situations where the culture has evolved in a way, due to the existence of magic, where death is a lot less Taboo. Those who have the funds can readily be resurrected if they die from unnatural causes, those that are poorer could donate their bodies (like modern organ donors) to be raised for unwanted jobs, or as an emergency army. I feel like a lot of people view D&D Necromancy with cultural biases based on our own world, not thinking about how differently people in a world with magic would view such things. I also think that mindless uncontrolled undead should be True Neutral, they're kind of like rabid or aggressive beasts in how they behave. Which isn't Evil IMO. The way I see all magic is that it is Neutral, it is the intent behind it that shapes whether a spell becomes Good or Evil. This is a view point that a lot of fantasy "wizards" have expressed in many different franchises.
This is a year old comment, but in the Planescape setting if you don't know, has the faction of Dustmen. They basically take in the dead of the city and put them in the crypt. They offer people contracts to raise them as servants to them and are integrated into society. They only raise people who are willing and pay them in life for their service in death. I agree with you, intent and reasoning are a big part of what makes things good and evil and our own biases get in the way of that world and how it sees things. Alignment in DnD is a flawed system. It could still work, put it tends to put things into definitive categories rather than spread creativity and development.
circle of spores druid don't muck with souls when making undead which their zombies shouldn't be considered undead because they are just fungus using corpses as puppets
I rather like the idea of that one. But I would like to basically be the mother plant. The core of the fungi/tree/plant hive mind. Being able to simply raise a number of undead minions at first is fine. But after getting to higher levels, it would be awesome if one could also also infect the living. It would have several sides to it. One of the higher level abilities would allow you to basically take over the bodies of low level creatures. Say a normal peasant. You could infect and control their body, making them basically a living zombie. Even if they would die, they would still move on due to the infection. The plants being linked to you through what would amount to a telepathic network, you could perhaps be able to read the persons mind to some extent. Their brain would be infected after all. Perhaps you could talk to them. Or even feel through their senses similar to a familiar. Among the top abilities, it could even let you personally take control over their or even the undead's body. Even while under your control, the host would basically be under the Incapacitated condition. Basically left watching a 5D movie. Or whatever we would call a movie where you could feel and smell everything that happens. :p It would allow to do so many epic things. However, it would not only be a curse for those infected. It is all a network of life energy after all. Your party would for example be too high level to be effected by any of the really bad effects of your spores. But, they could still get the benefits. The spores grow root like threads within once body. So even if your warrior would have their arm cut off. If you just place the arm back where it belong, the roots of the spores would nit it back on. You would also basically have an innate ability similar to the 3rd level spell Life Transfer. So say your warrior needs healing. You can take some of your own, or perhaps the stupid sorcerer's life energy and use the plant network of yours to send the life energy to your hurt warrior. Or you know... those silly peasants that you infected. >.> Who is more important here? The silly peasants or your own party member. Drain those silly battery people dry and make your friend better. Range naturally would be a somewhat limiting factor. Similar to there being loss electrical energy with distance. I am not sure how one would rule this though. How much energy would be lost over how much distance. If you make a city, or a castle. Something like that. Perhaps you could grow a special seedling, and make a tree that would spread your spores all over your own city. Perhaps you could also use touch spells through the spores? Imagine the people in your village praying to the big tree for their child to get healthy. And you could give them the blessing by using cure wounds. ... Or perhaps the tree itself could do so? The big giant tree probably got way better vitality than you yourself. So it could probably spare a fair bit of hp. The amount of energy it would have at its disposal. I could imagine, if we say the tree is basically a cleric under your command. Then it would be able to make your peasants into a rather capable army. At least while they would be within the trees domain. Imagine it being able to cast 5th level Aid on 30 of the peasants. That would give your peasants a total of 600 extra hp to fight with. While you could empower their weapons with your own magic. :3
I prefer Terry Pratchett's take, rehabilitating them into the "Department of Post-Mortem Communications." Before D&D ran off with the idea, it was all about communication with the dead rather than raising zombies.
To me a good comparison of how I see necromancery is Firebending from the Avatar series. In avatar the fire nation uses firebending to conquer the earth kingdoms, raid the water tribes and destroy the air nomads and there are Firebenders such as Azula, The Firelord, The General of the first season and Zuko for a good portion of the series who use firebending for destructive purposes. However there are people such as Ihro, The Renegade firebender, Avatar Roku and even Aung himself and eventually Zuko that uses firebending for good. The same can be said about necromancer as long as it doesn’t involve the manipulation of a person's soul. Side note: It is also A perfect example of magic schools seen as good or in the least neautral being used for evil. Bigest example being the old lady from season three using waterbending for Bloodbending (Why hasn't there been a hag monster that can Bloodblend)
"Animating them equals bringing evil into the world." Except that nothing in the PHB states that Animate Dead is an evil act. This is a carryover concept from past editions. Some people have a difficult time letting go of ideas like paladins needing be LG instead of focused on vows...its similar for people and this version of necromancy.
@@Nerdarchy Ive done that. In reference to the spell, I havent seen any alignment modifiers placed on minions created by Animate Dead. Nothing in the PHB states that the spell uses evil/dark energy or the souls of the former owner of the bones/corpse. On p213, It does state, "If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures." Unless the folks at WoTC have said otherwise, thats it...anything else is just assumption of the reader.
Undead are evil in the MM because 1.) They use life to sustain their own i.e. Vampire and Lich 2.) The spirit that reanimated the corpse is evil i.e. Mummy or Wight and 3.) The caster that created them is evil i.e. Skeleton or Zombie. If you create a mindless undead, like Skeletons or Zombies, they are a reflection of the will that is animating them. This has been the case since AD&D, as far as I know, considering that literally mindless undead don't act unless directed and follow the last order they were given until they die or are turned. In past editions it has stated that the casting of this spell is not a good act and only evil wizards do it frequently but that doesn't make it evil more likely just frond upon considering you're walking around with a corpse. Personally I believe the intent is what makes it good or evil. For instance if you summon a skeleton to go under water and rescue a party member that became lodged under a rock somehow and was unable to free them self then that is a good skeleton.
Interesting enough Mummies aren't really that evil. "Normal" undead will scour the world to murder. A mummy will chill in the place it was created till someone breaks into its home where his king/son/wife/friend is buried and steals from them. Then they track down the thieves and murder them. That is kind of reasonable, I mean you did just go grave robbing.
I think Eberon is a perfect example, they came up with a culture where the dead weren't exploited but venerated and looked up to. It's basically a form of ancestor worship for them with the added benefit of them still being able to talk to there ancestors in person. Now even if your not in a setting like that what if you had a friend who saw it as an honor to fight for what they believe even after their death the difficulties be damned? Sure it's not likely but a lot of us have met people crazier than that and a "single belief system" can often be a broad spectrum when you look closer. Also if your really their friend you are sure as nine lower realms to make them a sentient undead with some decent capabilities who doesn't have to prey on the living. I could also see it being something analogous to the way the Imperium entombs their best and brightest space marines in heavily armed and armoured mech suits when they're be damaged past the point of being viable on the battlefield in 40k. If a culture is extremely militaristic and these are your greatest most dedicated warriors it might even be something to aspire to.
Few things are as fun for me in dnd as trying to constantly convince my Paladin friend that these smelly guys in armor are just some mercenaries I found in the woods the other day.
well soul cage is ok if it is used on someone who truly deserves it like the end game bad guy or a serial killer then soul cage may be in a grey area however that would be the only instance id imagen it could fit in a grey area
Chill Touch is one of my favorite cantrips, It's side effects are great. My CN orc Necromancer was able to take out a high level drow cleric solo, using Chill Touch with Fireball bookends.
Good topic guys. In my 1E setting, I have a True Neutral Cleric who is drifting toward Necromancy. I'm waiting to see which direction her next spell choice goes. #KeepADnDAlive
"No one's ever going to be like 'oh my god, this is a horrible thing, that person's alive now'". Casts True Resurrection, targeting Hitler. Checkmate, necromancy-apologists :P
I’d even put Blight (and subsequently all damaging necromancy spells) in the grey column. I mean, what’s worse: turning one creature into dust with Blight or turning ten creatures into ash with a fireball?
I view necromancy as magic that deals with life death body and souls. So healing is most definatly a necromancy spell. Enchantment deals with the interpretation of things by the mind.
I still want to do my piper of death build, a bard necromancer combo. Animation when there are bodies around. Outside of combat the dead would be her band.
In my Ravnica campaign, one of my players wanted to be a grave cleric but be part of the Boros guild. The way I set up his character is that a grave cleric essentially protects the sanctity of life and helps protect people and spirits alike using necromantic magic. When he uses Animate Dead, I've reflavored it to where he can summon the ancestral spirits of the plane of that of the recently deceased and his "zombies" are more ghosts using the zombie stat block. Obviously this is homebrew but I liked the idea for his character and he's playing his character in a "greater good" and not caring about laws and such if it means it serves a greater purpose.
So my Oathbreaker Paladin is very grayish white. He just got the arm of Lord Soth so it boosts his necrotic abilities and spells. He also has a pet undead owlbear that he has to keep under a sheet when he goes into towns.
I felt that some of these spells were only considered evil, because they were necromancy, where the same effect with non-necromancy can be considered good. It should only be evil, as a descriptor, when it captures their soul, or manipulates it after death.
The old AD&D 2e Necromancer’s handbook actually outlines what spells are white, black, and grey. I have yet to see a strict outline of which spells fall under which category for 5th edition. I usually go by those guidelines!
As my fellow travelers and I were leaving a Barbarian encampment, I turned and asked if there was anyone who was strong enough and brave enough who would fight past their own limitations of death. I offered them a way to continue fighting even after their weakness was shown. What a truly honorable way to die. Now if there was just some way I could figure out how to use and channel that rage!
I'm not even going to bother arguing about this one. As is apparent by your comment replies, you guys have made your decision and nothing anyone says is going to change it or make you rethink it. As a DM do what you want, that's the beauty of D&D.
ooooh! you guys have the dark sun box set. sweet! the ultimate necromancer comes from dragon kings. raise nation+rift. 1000-4000 skeletons @ 50-60 hp each (for a day) permanently under your control. cant beat it...
My lvl 17 Tempest Cleric/3 War Wizard has 6 Necromancy spells regularly prepared White: Revivify and Raise Dead Grey: Toll Dead Black: Animate Dead, Contagion, and Harm What might be worse is that out of these spells Animate Dead and Harm are the two most used. But recently my Animate Dead casting is to retain my 8 skeletons.
@@milesmatheson1142 Generally, evocation is reserved for damage dealing spells like Fireball. But not always. Healing Word is evocation, Wall of Force is evocation, Telepathy is evocation, and Leomund's Tiny Hut is evocation. Note however that Detect Thoughts (which I would argue is very similar to Telepathy) is divination.
If you were to rework the wizard school removing the "Undead Thralls" ability what would you swap in to replace it that is still in the necromancy theme?
I wouldn't to be honest. Look if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then let's call it a duck and own it. I think the necromancy tradition for wizards is fine the way it is. I'm not against necromancy or necromancers to be honest. It annoys me that people think you can create evil creatures and call yourself good. Nerdarchist Dave
If your setting is more anti undead then Forgotten realms or you just want to be whimsical use a scarecrow/tinman/stuffed puppet and just put a memory of the soul into the new body so it remembers having a soul but does not actually have one, the thrall could either act more evil as its memories of the soul fade or act more good as it reinforces the memories of the soul. then like data from TNG it could learn to have a soul eventually.
@@fhuber7507 True, also, in my opinion, the single most evil Wizard School/Subclass in 5e are the Enchanters once they hit Level 14, especially compared to the other School's Lever 14 Ability. Not counting the UA School/Subclasses, here are the Level 14 Abilities of the Wizard's Subclasses: - Abjuration: Adv on Saving Throws against Spells & Resist against the damage of spells. - Conjuration: Any creature summoned or created with a Conjuration spell has 30 Temp HP. - Divination: Amplifies their "Portent" ability, in which you roll 3d20's (instead of 2), recording the numbers. These can replace any Attack Roll/Saving Throw/Ability Check made by you or a creature that you can see. You decide before the roll & you can only do this once per turn. - Enchantment: When you cast an Enchantment Spell to charm 1 or more creatures, you can alter one creature's understanding so that it remains unaware of being charmed. Additionally, once before the spell expires, you can use your action to try to make the chosen creature forget some of the time it spent charmed. Creature must pass an Int ST against the Wizard's Spell DC or lose a # of hours of its memories = to 1 + your Charisma Mod. You can make the creature forget less time & the amount of time can't exceed the duration of the enchantment spell. - Evocation: When you cast a wizard spell of 1st-5th level that deals damage, you can deal Max Damage with that spell. First time you do so, you suffer no adverse effect. If you use this feature before you finish a Long Rest, you take 2d12/Spell Level Necrotic Damage. Each time you use this ability before you finish a LR, the necrotic damage per spell level increases by 1d12. This damage ignores resist/immunity. - Illusion: You turn 1 inanimate, nonmagical object that is part of an Illusion Spell of 1st Level or higher, real. Remains real for 1 minute, & it can't deal damage or directly harm anyone. - Necromancy: You can take control of any undead, even those created by other wizards. Undead must make a Cha ST, passes & you can't use this ability on it again. Fail, it becomes your friend & obeys your commands until you use this feature again. Intelligent Undead with an Int of 8+ has Adv on the ST. Intelligent Undead with an Int of 12+ can repeat a failed ST at the end of every hour until it succeeds & breaks free. - Transmutation: Can do 1 of four things with their Transmutation Stone. - War Magic: When you use your Arcane Deflection, you can deal Force Damage (= 1/2 your Wizard level) to up to 3 creatures of your choice that you can see within 60'. - Bladesinger: You add your Int Mod to the damage of your melee weapon attacks while your Bladesong is active.
So I'm not sure why but for some reason this made me think of Talion and Celebrimbor from the Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War video games and now I need to figure out how to make them as a character.
I used to play a Necromancer in 3.5 that focused on just using the debuff spells like ray of enfeeblement. Much easier to question the chainmail wearing, two handed sword wielding fella once he's too weak to stand in his own armor.
To me magic doesn't have any innate morality. Not even neceomancy. Even the evil alignment of the undead is just expressing their insane and hostile to normal life outlook. They will attack normal life without fail because of their ties to the negitive plane and the torment they have endured. So it is a matter of how the caster takes this into account and utilizes their spells that decides whether they are using the magic in an evil way.
I'm working on a Necromancer that instead tries to use his abilities to heal and help people. Using more utility spells and creating his own spells to give life to his allies. The caviat to this is that he has to get that life force from somewhere, so he has to take it from others to give it away. He's not good aligned, more lawful neutral due to the way he heals.
All Magic, DND or otherwise is not inherently Good or Evil, it just is. Much like Star Wars and the Force, there is no Good Force nor Evil Force, it is how it is used. I understand the commoner view of "I dont understand it, you are bringing dead back, that is bad and possibly evil!" considering that most of the time when they encounter undead it is bad or evil, so I understand that in game you are fighting against a stereotype with the commoners; but i never understood when a DM forces a player to have an evil alignment just because he is a necromancer. I do know that some DMs prefer to make the change and say that Animate dead uses souls of the dead to animate the body. Thats fine, its your game, play it how you like. I still do not think it makes the spell, or necromancy in general, evil. I could use the souls of volunteers to fill the bodies, i could ask the spirit to return to protect their loved ones a final time, i could use the bodies of rapists and murders forcing them to perform good deeds in death as penance for their deeds in life. I also never understood where this whole animating dead is thought to bring the persons soul back and rip it from its resting place. The spell say absolutely nothing about this happening, and the body is animated by the magic itself. Think of it more like the body is a puppet, and necromancy is the strings. I also have to note, when i run a necromancer i use the bodies of the dead to protect the living. Why sacrifice the lives of the men and boys of a town to stand and protect the village when an army of the dead lay at your feet.
Ugg you raise a group of bandits one time to get skeletons to help plow a field for a elderly couple to have food and everyone thinks your evil but the cleric brings a vile noble back to life hes working wonders
My thoughts on fleshing out necromancy extends from LMoP's Red Wizard of Thay hanging out at the Old Owl Well. For some reason he commands 12 undead zombies, despite being only a lvl 4 'Evil Mage', so I reworked him to the lvl 12 necromancer in the back of Volo's Guide. His power is tempered by his dedication to abiding by Thay restrictions on using undead "The working-dead degrades the value of slave labor, and the slave-trader-lobby won out." One of the dead is his wife (a cleric slain by orcs), and he doesn't want to damage her in a fight; one of the undead regulations is to avoid raising and damaging the dead without clear need. The small horde includes a couple other companions, some orcs, and a few slaves bought from unlicensed red-cloaked slave-traders from Phandalin "Please don't tell the Slaver-Lobby, the Red of their cloaks confused me in my desperation." Also, he is NOT a Necromancer..."I am Archaeologist!" Hidden goal, not pissing off his mother-in-law. He will quit the Old Owl Well when his basic goals are complete; side goals include ensuring his little horde is given their permanent rest in accordance with their known or knowable beliefs.
Grey necromancy could be used as forensics. The necromancer could see what the murder victim saw or felt or smelled just before their demise. Probably getting to the victim/corpse within 12 hrs at lower levels. Able to get info after 24 or 48 or 72 hrs at higher levels. Also asking the dead ?? over a contested will. (Like speak w dead).
I think the idea of zombies or undead always being evil is a bit simplistic and a symptom of everything this is wrong with the alignment system. They could just be considered neutral until animated to do good or evil by their creators.
I sure they could be or they could hunger for the life they lost. Maybe their evil they just want snuff out life and hate all that lives with a jealous passion. Why not just cast animate object if you want nonaligned mindless automatons? Everyone is welcome to homebrew whatever they want and make the game their own. Nerdarchist Dave
zombies are evil, as they are animated with negative energy, when they are not controlled they crave flesh and souls and death... this however does not mean summoning them makes your character evil. demons are manifestations of evil, but it is not evil in itself to conjure one
College of undeath.....STOP MAKING ME WANT TO MAKE MORE HOMEBREWS I COULD WHIP UP A COLLEGE OF THE ANCESTERS GOSH DARN IT FOR RAISING AND ANIMATING DEAD THINGS
I personally like the way the grave cleric subclass seems to view necromancy : Life and death is a natural cycle that should be preserved Disrupting the rest of the dead by creating undead is necessarily bad The preservation/return of the life of those whose time has not come is good Expediting the death of those whose time has come is good At least that's what I get from it
i look at alignment as something that can exist in 2 ways depending on world cosmic alignment- there is a natural balance of positive and negative energies that must be maintained and to damage it is evil. emotional alignment- did you make people sad? thats evil. i prefer cosmic alignment myself as it fits the whole great wheel cosmology with the positive and negative planes though it also kind of removes the concept of "good and evil" altogether instead giving you a "positive or negative affinity" acting like a form of inverse magnetism drawing that soul to planes with similar charges in the afterlife. this could also be a separate mechanic from alignment where as alignment is created by some kind of gods given law and doesnt really exist affinity is very real and will decide your fate if the gods dont intervene pulling your soul that carries the energy you accumulated closer to the positive or negative plane for draining into said plane.
It's not good or evil, it's cost and effect. The affects will only be seen as good or evil depending on who is using the ability and whom it is used on
I would argue that Vampiric Touch iis no more evil than picking carrots. Imagine the horror of the carrots as their life is suddenly snuffed out to accoutrement your Caesar salad. You chokev rhythm first, by removing them from the soil, then decapitate them, dismember them, and dress them with a putrid concoction.
In my world there are laws on necromancy, basically anything that requires the necromancy victim to be willing is allowed, things like speak with dead that dont require the victim to be willing but don't like animate the corpse you need a permit and/or direct, witnessed permission from the victim. Animating corpses as zombies and the like is just illegal. Combat necromancy like vampiric touch or blight are under the same laws as all weapons and combat magic. As long as the combat itself is within the law, so is the use of that spell.
so basically I'm allowed to play a necromancer wizard I just can't ever benefit from my wizard sub class or i'm evil? ok. so from now on whenever you play your fighter battlemaster just never use your battle maneuvers because hurting people is bad and evil. I mean "how would you feel if someone came over and tripped you with a spear". oh also hurting or killing things with medieval weapons is bad and is a incredibly inhumane and painful way to die so no more attacking either. also dungeon crawling for loot is bad because that's pretty much stealing. so you can't dungeon crawl if your a good person. oh also saving the world with your adventuring party is bad because it's vigilantism. oh and adventuring is bad because your willingly homeless vagrants who don't contribute to the economy. so unless your a bad guy go back to your 9-5 job working a crop for the rest of your life. everytime you have this discussion you 2 just sit there and agree with each other with no one pushing back...
A key problem I have with 5e's take on necromancy is that all the black stuff since it was the main thing that did all the "unfun" it got changed to the point where besides the iconic dead animating spells all of them don't have the elements that actually make them dark. If you want a couple examples of legitimate dark necromancy go to 2e's Death Spell where it kills them by snuffing out their life force making it so they have no soul to revive, or the same editions enervation where it suppresses their life force lowering their levels. One of the problems of removing those sorts of mechanics is that now necromancies typical "dark" magic is now no worse than a fireball. Previously one of dark necromancies hallmarks was the forceful tampering of the soul. Now grey necromancy is being called dark because there are few non animation spells with the core darkness to them to compare with. Vampiric Touch for example isn't dark, it's violent but not towards the soul it takes entirely physical life, rather than that of the spiritual kind, you can recover from it in just a couple of days.
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In a previous campaign, the bard put a bunch of enemies in a Forcecage, and the cleric cast Insect Plague on the area. They were locked in a box and eaten alive by locusts. When it was done, the necromancer in the group turned to them and said, "You people are sick."
I know right necromancer's get a lot of shit about being evil. When conjurer's summons and enslaving living thinking creatures. Evoker's are burning, freezing, pouring acid, shocking, people to death in some of the most worst way possible. Illusist are driving people insane or just psychly scrambling there mines. I can keep going but there are so many messed up way to go compared to what necromancy does.
@@dustinmccollum7196 I know, right?! At least, most of the time, necros don't want to fuck with you until AFTER you're dead!
@@bigd7861 i think you are mistaking necromancer for necrophiliac... :|
@@Chrophiss Close enough!
Roflmao... Thats funny.🤣🤣😂
Raising a family is hard.
Not if they are buried close.
What?
What?
Noble Knight: "I shall get my vengeance on those that murdered my brother!"
Ranger: "You have my bow."
Barbarian: "And my axe!"
Necromancer: "And your brother."
We all know the truly evil color of magic is Blue. There is nothing more evil then casting Counterspell over and over again.
David Jackson the most powerful card in the world is truly basic island
Ah yes mtg
I can’t remember all of them, it’s been too long. I’m having a bit of a Memory Lapse.
The abjuration wizard is fleeing
I could see a storyline thing with a Cleric and a Necromancy wizard arguing over the whole necromancy thing, when the wizard just drops that the cleric does similar thing, using magic to manipulate the life force of their allies to keep them alive, walking off smirking while the cleric and everyone else is just standing there slack jawed.
lol, sounds like something that should be wrong, but too logical to ignore. :)
That's my point in how Magic, no matter the school, has no alignment. While a spell might create an evil or divine creature, it does not make the magic itself evil or good. Just as a Cursed Sword is just a sword, a tool used by man. Be it for evil purposes or to slay the wicked as the hero sacrifices himself to wield such a Cursed tool. The sword, while affected by evil, unless it possesses sentience, cannot be declared evil. Same goes for Cleric Spells. What prevents a Cleric who worships a dark god of wickedness from using Divine Healing Spells to keep their wicked forces fighting the forces of good? Nothing. Does that mean the Healing Spells are Evil? No, they were used in an evil manner.
I had a variant on that. A necromancer cleric whose healing spells had a RP side effect of HURTING a lot. He said that something clerics of the light didn't bother mentioning was the enchantment/charm component of healing that suppressed pain, and potentially altered personality and beliefs. Healing that HURT was more honest. After all, who would trust a necromancer to mess with their minds in any case?
The morality of Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting depends on how hostile the local plant life is. if you've got a circle of Malarite druids bent on turning a frontier town into fertilizer and Wild Hunting the survivors, dropping a Horrid Wilting seems like a wonderful idea. Honestly, it's a more surgical option than fireball, because Horrid Wilting just defoliates 30 feet of angry trees, whereas fire tends to spread.
Just, uh, kindly intercept them before they're standing on your farmland.
Good point. It validates our necromancer weed killer agency idea.
Nerdarchist Dave
Personally, I’m an old school 2e player, where Skeletons and Zombies were unaligned/true neutral (and were just essentially constructs animated by negative energy), so my own personal belief is that the creation of non-sentient undead isn’t necessarily evil. Creation of sentient undead, where you are warping their soul etc is absolutely evil, but non-sentient? Not really.
For me, the creation of non-sentient undead depends on context, like your gray necromancy spells. Do you have the permission of the corpse, or the corpse’s next of kin? Why are you animating the corpse? and so on and so forth. The Dustmen from the Planescape setting for example. They create contracts with people to animate their bodies after their death, they use the animated corpses to do menial labour, like delivering messages or moving crates, etc. While I certainly wouldn’t call the Dustmen good, they absolutely aren’t evil.
LM of the Coast disagree
I don't know I think it was even clearer in earlier editions. Animating the dead was done with negative energy from from the negative energy plane. An evil place and a dark energy.
Nerdarchist Dave
Agree with Nerdarchist Dave! disagree with LM of the Coast who it seems has never played older editions of the worlds greatest role playing game!
In my world necromancers are outlawed due to past misuse of raising undead. Just casting a necromancy spell (other that the ones that raise creatures) are ok, as they are viewed no differently from other damage causing spells. The act of raising undead is considered evil in my world. If you raise a bunch of skeletons and leave, they will attack people that come near them so definitely evil. I've never seen a fireball waiting around for someone to show up (glyphs excluded) and attack.
@@Grim-oc9fw well grim it seems you didnt fully play either because my 2nd edition book says neutral wizards can raise entire armies in times of trouble and good necromancers can only do so with permission from the deceased/deity. You had no need to be so dismissive. a 3+ paragraph comment that you only respond to with disagree and then follow it sycophant praise of the channel just shows your rude. Its clear in 2nd edition atleast that it was left more up to the player/dm to decide how necromancy would be used in each case. it seems like we as players got stuck on the only evil necromancers part of it because when we played 2nd edition we were alot worse at story construction and im thinking alot of our preconeived notions of dnd came about because we started playing at a time when no one knew all the rules and everyone adapted to their own groups variant.
2nd edition is the only manual iv looked at so far that clearly talks about good neutral and evil uses for skeletons. 5th edition has been streamlined for ease of use. so the confusing are undead always evil fits as the official stance but lacks any depth to explore. if you see an undead its evil no need to talk. vs was this undead raised willingly or not. is it a guardian or a victim.
If im in a part of adventurers and one of them knows animate dead and were trying to save the nation. yeah if i die halfway through raise my corpse because this is important.
I applaud the joke at the beginning.
Glad you liked it.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy yeah it was funny.
You know, most of those grey abilities are just different flavors of attack spell. I know a bunch of other people have said it, but all those spells like chill touch and even contagion are no different than other offensive spells. What makes causing direct decay and wounds to an enemy more evil than burning them to death? What makes giving a disease worse than freezing someone alive, paralyzing with shock, or even sending someone to another dimension. I know it was said, and you guys aknowldged it a little, but eh
That's the argument I came here to post, but you've already got it covered!
Glad to see someone with such a genius mind similar to mine /s
Bard College of Souls
That’d be a good name for a gothic bard.
I can dig it. 3.5 had a dirge singer prestige class.
Nerdarchist Dave
Nerdarchy
I do wish they would make a 5e Book of Vile Darkness and Exhaled Deeds.
They would open a lot of doors for villains, Saints, and everything in between without home-brewing it.
skeleton archers squad, every party deserves one
Skeletal Heavy Crossbowmen!
I had wizard that did something like that, he name them the god squad
"Send out the archers!"
"But, Sir, they're all dead!"
"Well, wake their asses up and send them back out anyway!"
Gives me the feels of a Monty Python kind of vibe. 😂
@@bigd7861 That's Danse Macabre doing it's work.
"Sir, they killed our archers."
"John, wake 'em up and let them get their vengeance, would you?"
Why was life transference from Xanathar’s guide not talked about, it’s probably the only ‘white’ wizard necromancy spell where the caster is giving their life to someone else?
It was on our list. Thought we mentioned it. That being said the video is already 22 minutes long. It would be easy to pick out a bunch of topics to talk about more. Before you know it we've got 22 hour long video.
Life Tranference is definitely a good call for good necromancy.
Nerdarchist Dave
Life transference can be cast on the caster, which is cool but doesn't make a lot of sense.
The way I see it, using necromancy is like using nuclear power. Something that is in its basest form going to cause harm, but has potential to help people.
I'm still hoping the US starts to utilize nuclear energy again!
Is nuclear energy in its basest form going to cause harm though? I mean solar energy is technically nuclear energy.
A necromancer arrives in a village, accompanied an animated corpse. The villagers are horrified to see it's the son of the local blacksmith, who left the village a year before to seek adventure. The blacksmith leads the mob in attacking the necromancer. The necromancer's final words; "Tom just wanted to come home."
After contacting the spirit of Tom & learning what happened, the local priest contacted his superiors who agreed to raise both him & the necromancer, who remained in the village for a while as an honoured guest.
And that's how Keris the Merciful was introduced to the party when they rocked up in town hearing about a skilled wizard for hire.
Necro Bard makes me think of the necromancers in the Dresden Files, having to drum to keep control of their zombies like a magical heartbeat... except, you know, more emo
I think of the skeleton from onepiece
Necrodancer.
Thank you guys so much for this lol. Love the death cleric and necromancers! :D can you do a D&d build? The Lord of necromancy! Maybe a combination of both classes? Or druid of spores? What are your guys thoughts of the other two classes as there perspective of the necromancer?
We could do the build for sure. I'll added it to the list.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy awesome thank you! The whole white, grey, and black necromancy was a great idea. I like the lawful neutral alignment so I think that one would be more willing to use all of the different kinds. But that's my opinion.
Necromancer from lv 6 to lv 20
So lets do a little calculation?
3 x Animate Dead = 12 zombies
Now that may seem minor but at level six that is.
12 Zombies x 1d6 + 3/7 = 12d6 damage + 36/84
12 Zombies x 22 + 6 = 336 hp
How about down the road, lets look at level 10?
3 x lv 3 Animate Dead = 12 zombies
3 x lv 4 Animate Dead = 18 zombies
2 x lv 5 Animate Dead = 16 zombies
For a total of 46 zombies
You see where this is going don’t you friend?
46 Zombies x 1d6 + 4/8 = 46d6 damage + 184/368
46 Zombies x 22 + 10 = 1,472 hp
Now what about even further at level 20?
4 x lv 3 Animate Dead = 16 zombies
3 x lv 4 Animate Dead = 18 zombies
3 x lv 5 Animate Dead = 24 zombies
2 x lv 6 Animate Dead = 20 zombies
2 x lv 7 Animate Dead = 24 zombies
1 x lv 8 Animate Dead = 12 zombies
1 x lv 9 Animate Dead = 14 zombies
For a total of 128 zombies
Yes, you have a small army don’t you?
128 Zombies x 1d6 + 6/11 = 128d6 damage + 768/1,408
128 Zombies x 22 + 20 = 5,376 hp
I can’t imagine any pathetic paladins or foolhardy clerics will dare to touch you. Besides this isn’t even including magic items or spells which might allow you to grow your army indefinitely like the wish spell and finger of death, then there is the Staff of the Forgotten and the Wand of Orcus.
Now if you want a true army at your heel; as a necromancer I prefer the ever faithful skeleton. Raise them then kit them out, and once you have a kingdom underfoot have them forge their own shields, longswords, and plate armor.
Kitted out Zombie:
1d6 melee damage
42 hp
8 ac
Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 plus the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.
Kitted out Skeleton:
1d8 melee or 1d6 ranged damage
32 hp
20 ac
Assuming you have crafted yourself a proper necromancer artifact with the soul of a powerful spellcaster or entity. You can look forward to many proper minions. (CR 1 to 2)
Kitted out Strahd Zombie:
1d4 + 2d6 melee damage
50 hp
8 ac
Loathsome Limbs: Whenever the zombie takes at least 5 bludgeoning or slashing damage at one time, roll a d20 to determine what else happens to it:
1-8: One leg is severed from the zombie if it has any legs left.
9-16: One arm is severed from the zombie if it has any arms left.
17-20: The zombie is decapitated.
Kitted out Ogre Zombie:
2d8 melee damage
105 hp
18 ac
Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the zombie to 0 hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 plus the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.
Kitted out Minotaur Skeleton:
2d12 melee damage
2d8 - 4d8 Gore Damage
87 hp
18 ac
Then again, don’t forget about your pet with Command Undead, 11 or less intelligent undead are yours to command forever.
Kitted out Giant Skeleton:
9d6 melee damage or 3d10 ranged damage
135 hp
20 ac
Evasion: If the skeleton is subjected to an effect that allows it to make a saving throw to take only half damage , it instead takes no damage if it succeeds on the saving throw, and only half damage if it fails.
Magic Resistance: The skeleton has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
Turn Immunity: The skeleton is immune to effects that turn undead.
Kitted out Greater Zombie:
2d6 melee damage
117 hp
15 ac
Turn Resistance: The zombie has advantage on saving throws against any effect that turns undead.
Undead Fortitude: If damage reduces the zombie to O hit points, it must make a Constitution saving throw with a DC of 5 plus the damage taken, unless the damage is radiant or from a critical hit. On a success, the Greater Zombie drops to 1 hit point instead.
Kitted out Mummy Lord:
3d6 melee damage + effect
117 hp
20 ac
Magic Resistance: The mummy lord has advantage on saving throws against spells and other magical effects.
Rejuvenation: A destroyed mummy lord gains a new body in 24 hours if its heart is intact, regaining all its hit points and becoming active again. The new body appears within 5 feet of the mummy lord's heart.
Spellcasting: The mummy lord is a 10th-level cleric. Its spellcasting ability is Wisdom (spell save DC 17, +9 to hit with spell attacks).
Cantrips (at will): sacred flame, thaumaturgy
1st level (4 slots)
2nd level (3 slots)
3rd level (3 slots)
4th level (3 slots)
5th level (2 slots)
6th level (1 slot)
Kitted out Vampire Spawn:
2d8 melee damage or 2d6 ranged
102 hp
20 ac
Regeneration: The vampire regains 10 hit points at the start of its turn if it has at least 1 hit point and isn't in sun light or running water. If the vampire takes radiant damage or damage from holy water, this trait doesn't function at the start of the vampire's next turn.
Spider Climb: The vampire can climb difficult surfaces, including upside down on ceilings, without needing to make an ability check.
Forbiddance: The vampire can't enter a residence without an invitation from one of the occupants.
Harmed by Running Water: Takes 20 acid damage when it ends its turn in running water.
Stake to the Heart: Destroyed if a piercing weapon made of wood is driven into its heart while it is incapacitated in its resting place.
Sunlight Hypersensitivity: The vampire takes 20 radiant damage when it starts its turn in sunlight. While in sunlight, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.
My personal suggestion? I’d go with the kitted out Giant Skeleton if you are looking for raw power. Though personally I prefer the Mummy Lord, an undead minion you can actually have an intellectual discussion with is quite nice. That and assuming you’re still mortal by the time you acquire this minion you should replace your heart with its; there is no safer place for it.
That is all the knowledge I will impart for now.
Thank you good sir! New and interesting ways to piss off my DM.
one of my fav characters ive ever made is my necromancer Thalia The Timid. She is a good necromancer who wants to use necromancy for the betterment of people and using them as workers for dangerous tasks or sentries/guards or even using them as labor. To her she wasn't manipulating souls she was working a long dead lump of meat as a puppet and causing it to do things for her. We had a cleric in the group who obviously disapproved and gave her crap for her usage of necromancy. Thalia pointed out the hypocrisy of that seeing the cleric she had inflict wounds, revivify, etc and was essentially playing god. Maybe one of our party members who fell in battle found peace on the other side, saw dead loved ones etc and was then suddenly ripped back from that everlasting peace and forced into their body. Clerics can also cast animate dead and no one really gives them crap for it which is ridiculous and unfair. Especially since she used her necromancy to help people.
Just a correction: In 5E, healing is evocation. As a 2E player, I prefer the Cure and heal (and their reversed) to be Necromancy.
Necromancy isn't evil no magic is evil, magic is just a tool it's the user who is good or evil!
I agree with you but rasing dead is inherently evil just because evil is q tangible and measurable thing in dnd, even if you use the zombies to pet puppies and plant flowers they are still powered by negative energy
@@MFinGonzo not technically. The spell functions the same way as animate object, you put your magic into a corpse and essentially it "powers it". No where does it state that it's with negative energy, and by your logic spells like reviving, resurrection, etc etc would be considered evil.
I don't know why but all this talk about how evil necromancer spells may or may not be has gotten me in the mood to make a chaotic evil necromancer bard.
Bam! Happy to be of service. If you're gonna be evil own it.
Nerdarchist Dave
I had a conflict in my campaign between necromantic clerics who believed the dead should serve the living, and necromantic wizards, who treated life and death as a source of power, and undeath immortality was the ultimate goal.
So what about the situations where the culture has evolved in a way, due to the existence of magic, where death is a lot less Taboo. Those who have the funds can readily be resurrected if they die from unnatural causes, those that are poorer could donate their bodies (like modern organ donors) to be raised for unwanted jobs, or as an emergency army.
I feel like a lot of people view D&D Necromancy with cultural biases based on our own world, not thinking about how differently people in a world with magic would view such things.
I also think that mindless uncontrolled undead should be True Neutral, they're kind of like rabid or aggressive beasts in how they behave. Which isn't Evil IMO.
The way I see all magic is that it is Neutral, it is the intent behind it that shapes whether a spell becomes Good or Evil. This is a view point that a lot of fantasy "wizards" have expressed in many different franchises.
This is a year old comment, but in the Planescape setting if you don't know, has the faction of Dustmen. They basically take in the dead of the city and put them in the crypt. They offer people contracts to raise them as servants to them and are integrated into society. They only raise people who are willing and pay them in life for their service in death.
I agree with you, intent and reasoning are a big part of what makes things good and evil and our own biases get in the way of that world and how it sees things. Alignment in DnD is a flawed system. It could still work, put it tends to put things into definitive categories rather than spread creativity and development.
Every party needs a necromancer with a portable hole full of skeletons.
"This doesn't seem so bad after all." -Me after reading the 11 Satanic rules of the earth
Just wait until you're no longer on the earth. Very different set of rules applies.
@@robertlombardo8437 I feel like we have a very different set of beliefs in more ways than one.
Necromancy! Now we're talkin!!
I just love these intros.
circle of spores druid don't muck with souls when making undead which their zombies shouldn't be considered undead because they are just fungus using corpses as puppets
Agreed. I wish their animated dead spell got altered that way as well.
Nerdarchist Dave
I rather like the idea of that one. But I would like to basically be the mother plant. The core of the fungi/tree/plant hive mind. Being able to simply raise a number of undead minions at first is fine. But after getting to higher levels, it would be awesome if one could also also infect the living.
It would have several sides to it. One of the higher level abilities would allow you to basically take over the bodies of low level creatures. Say a normal peasant. You could infect and control their body, making them basically a living zombie. Even if they would die, they would still move on due to the infection.
The plants being linked to you through what would amount to a telepathic network, you could perhaps be able to read the persons mind to some extent. Their brain would be infected after all. Perhaps you could talk to them. Or even feel through their senses similar to a familiar.
Among the top abilities, it could even let you personally take control over their or even the undead's body. Even while under your control, the host would basically be under the Incapacitated condition. Basically left watching a 5D movie. Or whatever we would call a movie where you could feel and smell everything that happens. :p
It would allow to do so many epic things.
However, it would not only be a curse for those infected. It is all a network of life energy after all. Your party would for example be too high level to be effected by any of the really bad effects of your spores. But, they could still get the benefits. The spores grow root like threads within once body. So even if your warrior would have their arm cut off. If you just place the arm back where it belong, the roots of the spores would nit it back on.
You would also basically have an innate ability similar to the 3rd level spell Life Transfer. So say your warrior needs healing. You can take some of your own, or perhaps the stupid sorcerer's life energy and use the plant network of yours to send the life energy to your hurt warrior.
Or you know... those silly peasants that you infected. >.> Who is more important here? The silly peasants or your own party member. Drain those silly battery people dry and make your friend better.
Range naturally would be a somewhat limiting factor. Similar to there being loss electrical energy with distance. I am not sure how one would rule this though. How much energy would be lost over how much distance.
If you make a city, or a castle. Something like that. Perhaps you could grow a special seedling, and make a tree that would spread your spores all over your own city.
Perhaps you could also use touch spells through the spores? Imagine the people in your village praying to the big tree for their child to get healthy. And you could give them the blessing by using cure wounds. ... Or perhaps the tree itself could do so? The big giant tree probably got way better vitality than you yourself. So it could probably spare a fair bit of hp. The amount of energy it would have at its disposal. I could imagine, if we say the tree is basically a cleric under your command. Then it would be able to make your peasants into a rather capable army. At least while they would be within the trees domain. Imagine it being able to cast 5th level Aid on 30 of the peasants. That would give your peasants a total of 600 extra hp to fight with. While you could empower their weapons with your own magic. :3
I prefer Terry Pratchett's take, rehabilitating them into the "Department of Post-Mortem Communications." Before D&D ran off with the idea, it was all about communication with the dead rather than raising zombies.
There is room for tons of different takes on necromancy. Since we are a primarily D&D channel we go with their lore.
Nerdarchist Dave
Pratchett is always a win
To me a good comparison of how I see necromancery is Firebending from the Avatar series. In avatar the fire nation uses firebending to conquer the earth kingdoms, raid the water tribes and destroy the air nomads and there are Firebenders such as Azula, The Firelord, The General of the first season and Zuko for a good portion of the series who use firebending for destructive purposes. However there are people such as Ihro, The Renegade firebender, Avatar Roku and even Aung himself and eventually Zuko that uses firebending for good. The same can be said about necromancer as long as it doesn’t involve the manipulation of a person's soul.
Side note: It is also A perfect example of magic schools seen as good or in the least neautral being used for evil. Bigest example being the old lady from season three using waterbending for Bloodbending (Why hasn't there been a hag monster that can Bloodblend)
so you are telling us that making bandits who kill people into my undead familiar is evil?
Only by raw. Killing evil bandits equals removing evil from the world. Animating them equals bringing evil into the world.
Nerdarchist Dave
+Nerdarchy ok i get what you're saying now
"Animating them equals bringing evil into the world." Except that nothing in the PHB states that Animate Dead is an evil act. This is a carryover concept from past editions. Some people have a difficult time letting go of ideas like paladins needing be LG instead of focused on vows...its similar for people and this version of necromancy.
@@derekcash3608 check the alignment of undead in the Monster Manual.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy Ive done that. In reference to the spell, I havent seen any alignment modifiers placed on minions created by Animate Dead. Nothing in the PHB states that the spell uses evil/dark energy or the souls of the former owner of the bones/corpse. On p213, It does state, "If you issue no commands, the creature only defends itself against hostile creatures." Unless the folks at WoTC have said otherwise, thats it...anything else is just assumption of the reader.
Undead are evil in the MM because 1.) They use life to sustain their own i.e. Vampire and Lich 2.) The spirit that reanimated the corpse is evil i.e. Mummy or Wight and 3.) The caster that created them is evil i.e. Skeleton or Zombie. If you create a mindless undead, like Skeletons or Zombies, they are a reflection of the will that is animating them. This has been the case since AD&D, as far as I know, considering that literally mindless undead don't act unless directed and follow the last order they were given until they die or are turned. In past editions it has stated that the casting of this spell is not a good act and only evil wizards do it frequently but that doesn't make it evil more likely just frond upon considering you're walking around with a corpse. Personally I believe the intent is what makes it good or evil. For instance if you summon a skeleton to go under water and rescue a party member that became lodged under a rock somehow and was unable to free them self then that is a good skeleton.
Interesting enough Mummies aren't really that evil. "Normal" undead will scour the world to murder. A mummy will chill in the place it was created till someone breaks into its home where his king/son/wife/friend is buried and steals from them. Then they track down the thieves and murder them. That is kind of reasonable, I mean you did just go grave robbing.
I think Eberon is a perfect example, they came up with a culture where the dead weren't exploited but venerated and looked up to. It's basically a form of ancestor worship for them with the added benefit of them still being able to talk to there ancestors in person.
Now even if your not in a setting like that what if you had a friend who saw it as an honor to fight for what they believe even after their death the difficulties be damned? Sure it's not likely but a lot of us have met people crazier than that and a "single belief system" can often be a broad spectrum when you look closer. Also if your really their friend you are sure as nine lower realms to make them a sentient undead with some decent capabilities who doesn't have to prey on the living.
I could also see it being something analogous to the way the Imperium entombs their best and brightest space marines in heavily armed and armoured mech suits when they're be damaged past the point of being viable on the battlefield in 40k. If a culture is extremely militaristic and these are your greatest most dedicated warriors it might even be something to aspire to.
Wait, spawn a couple of teenagers himself? Is Dave a father or does he mean characters?
He was Raising a family.
@@matteussilvestre8583 Ok that made me laugh good on you
Yes
Nerdarchist Dave
Few things are as fun for me in dnd as trying to constantly convince my Paladin friend that these smelly guys in armor are just some mercenaries I found in the woods the other day.
well soul cage is ok if it is used on someone who truly deserves it like the end game bad guy or a serial killer
then soul cage may be in a grey area
however that would be the only instance id imagen it could fit in a grey area
Thank you so much for this
Chill Touch is one of my favorite cantrips, It's side effects are great. My CN orc Necromancer was able to take out a high level drow cleric solo, using Chill Touch with Fireball bookends.
Good topic guys. In my 1E setting, I have a True Neutral Cleric who is drifting toward Necromancy. I'm waiting to see which direction her next spell choice goes. #KeepADnDAlive
"No one's ever going to be like 'oh my god, this is a horrible thing, that person's alive now'". Casts True Resurrection, targeting Hitler. Checkmate, necromancy-apologists :P
They would give him a trial in israel. lots of people would love it.
lmao that intro you guys are killing it
Next they will Raise you.
I’d even put Blight (and subsequently all damaging necromancy spells) in the grey column. I mean, what’s worse: turning one creature into dust with Blight or turning ten creatures into ash with a fireball?
Controlling 1 person with dominate person
I view necromancy as magic that deals with life death body and souls. So healing is most definatly a necromancy spell.
Enchantment deals with the interpretation of things by the mind.
1:31 ghost, revenant, dracolich (technically doesn’t say they are evil)
I still want to do my piper of death build, a bard necromancer combo. Animation when there are bodies around. Outside of combat the dead would be her band.
That's a great robe Nerdarchist Ted is wearing.
In my Ravnica campaign, one of my players wanted to be a grave cleric but be part of the Boros guild. The way I set up his character is that a grave cleric essentially protects the sanctity of life and helps protect people and spirits alike using necromantic magic. When he uses Animate Dead, I've reflavored it to where he can summon the ancestral spirits of the plane of that of the recently deceased and his "zombies" are more ghosts using the zombie stat block. Obviously this is homebrew but I liked the idea for his character and he's playing his character in a "greater good" and not caring about laws and such if it means it serves a greater purpose.
To make a Dhampir I toyed with using a Half-Elf, and making him a Lawful Evil Bladedancer (Rapier) of the Necromantic school.
Love the content as always, and this has given me an idea on how to do a decent necromancer
So my Oathbreaker Paladin is very grayish white. He just got the arm of Lord Soth so it boosts his necrotic abilities and spells. He also has a pet undead owlbear that he has to keep under a sheet when he goes into towns.
I felt that some of these spells were only considered evil, because they were necromancy, where the same effect with non-necromancy can be considered good. It should only be evil, as a descriptor, when it captures their soul, or manipulates it after death.
How do you feel about the Vampire race from the Plane Shift Ixilan? Since they can be any alignment.
Lol "'shades' of necromancy" I see what you did there Ted
Ever the punster.
Nerdarchist Dave
The old AD&D 2e Necromancer’s handbook actually outlines what spells are white, black, and grey. I have yet to see a strict outline of which spells fall under which category for 5th edition. I usually go by those guidelines!
was creating a necromancer for a new game the second this video came out lmao
I like the idea of a Neutral aligned necromancer who views himself as a force of karma and only raises evil people and creatures as undead.
Liked before the intro. This confirms I enjoyed this episode before I even saw it😂
As my fellow travelers and I were leaving a Barbarian encampment, I turned and asked if there was anyone who was strong enough and brave enough who would fight past their own limitations of death. I offered them a way to continue fighting even after their weakness was shown. What a truly honorable way to die. Now if there was just some way I could figure out how to use and channel that rage!
I'm not even going to bother arguing about this one. As is apparent by your comment replies, you guys have made your decision and nothing anyone says is going to change it or make you rethink it. As a DM do what you want, that's the beauty of D&D.
ooooh! you guys have the dark sun box set. sweet! the ultimate necromancer comes from dragon kings. raise nation+rift. 1000-4000 skeletons @ 50-60 hp each (for a day) permanently under your control. cant beat it...
My lvl 17 Tempest Cleric/3 War Wizard has 6 Necromancy spells regularly prepared
White: Revivify and Raise Dead
Grey: Toll Dead
Black: Animate Dead, Contagion, and Harm
What might be worse is that out of these spells Animate Dead and Harm are the two most used. But recently my Animate Dead casting is to retain my 8 skeletons.
Healing is now evocation instead of conjuration.
Isn't Evocation "combat" magic?
Pathfinder 2.0 just went and gave the healing spells their own School- literally called "Healing".
@@milesmatheson1142 Generally, evocation is reserved for damage dealing spells like Fireball. But not always. Healing Word is evocation, Wall of Force is evocation, Telepathy is evocation, and Leomund's Tiny Hut is evocation.
Note however that Detect Thoughts (which I would argue is very similar to Telepathy) is divination.
Yeah, evocation has become a bit of the catch all school. It is the liberal arts college of the magic university.
man i freakin love you guys
If you were to rework the wizard school removing the "Undead Thralls" ability what would you swap in to replace it that is still in the necromancy theme?
I wouldn't to be honest. Look if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, then let's call it a duck and own it.
I think the necromancy tradition for wizards is fine the way it is.
I'm not against necromancy or necromancers to be honest. It annoys me that people think you can create evil creatures and call yourself good.
Nerdarchist Dave
If your setting is more anti undead then Forgotten realms or you just want to be whimsical use a scarecrow/tinman/stuffed puppet and just put a memory of the soul into the new body so it remembers having a soul but does not actually have one, the thrall could either act more evil as its memories of the soul fade or act more good as it reinforces the memories of the soul. then like data from TNG it could learn to have a soul eventually.
@@Nerdarchy isn't that litterally what chaotic good is made for? doing morally questionable things for good causes?????
We're just misunderstood, and are no more evil then the other Schools :P ;)
Because all magic is evil.
@@fhuber7507 True, also, in my opinion, the single most evil Wizard School/Subclass in 5e are the Enchanters once they hit Level 14, especially compared to the other School's Lever 14 Ability. Not counting the UA School/Subclasses, here are the Level 14 Abilities of the Wizard's Subclasses:
- Abjuration: Adv on Saving Throws against Spells & Resist against the damage of spells.
- Conjuration: Any creature summoned or created with a Conjuration spell has 30 Temp HP.
- Divination: Amplifies their "Portent" ability, in which you roll 3d20's (instead of 2), recording the numbers. These can replace any Attack Roll/Saving Throw/Ability Check made by you or a creature that you can see. You decide before the roll & you can only do this once per turn.
- Enchantment: When you cast an Enchantment Spell to charm 1 or more creatures, you can alter one creature's understanding so that it remains unaware of being charmed. Additionally, once before the spell expires, you can use your action to try to make the chosen creature forget some of the time it spent charmed. Creature must pass an Int ST against the Wizard's Spell DC or lose a # of hours of its memories = to 1 + your Charisma Mod. You can make the creature forget less time & the amount of time can't exceed the duration of the enchantment spell.
- Evocation: When you cast a wizard spell of 1st-5th level that deals damage, you can deal Max Damage with that spell. First time you do so, you suffer no adverse effect. If you use this feature before you finish a Long Rest, you take 2d12/Spell Level Necrotic Damage. Each time you use this ability before you finish a LR, the necrotic damage per spell level increases by 1d12. This damage ignores resist/immunity.
- Illusion: You turn 1 inanimate, nonmagical object that is part of an Illusion Spell of 1st Level or higher, real. Remains real for 1 minute, & it can't deal damage or directly harm anyone.
- Necromancy: You can take control of any undead, even those created by other wizards. Undead must make a Cha ST, passes & you can't use this ability on it again. Fail, it becomes your friend & obeys your commands until you use this feature again. Intelligent Undead with an Int of 8+ has Adv on the ST. Intelligent Undead with an Int of 12+ can repeat a failed ST at the end of every hour until it succeeds & breaks free.
- Transmutation: Can do 1 of four things with their Transmutation Stone.
- War Magic: When you use your Arcane Deflection, you can deal Force Damage (= 1/2 your Wizard level) to up to 3 creatures of your choice that you can see within 60'.
- Bladesinger: You add your Int Mod to the damage of your melee weapon attacks while your Bladesong is active.
I dunno. Enchantment (taking away Free Will) is pretty Evil...
@@milesmatheson1142 Agreed
animating dead is not evil..the soul has left the body its just raw materals..
So, what you're saying is....
It's free real estate?
So I'm not sure why but for some reason this made me think of Talion and Celebrimbor from the Shadow of Mordor and Shadow of War video games and now I need to figure out how to make them as a character.
I'm afraid we don't video game much anymore so we wouldn't be any help.
Nerdarchist Dave
The coked up Eagle Friend of mine had a concept for that. Think he went with a ranger multiclass for it. Not sure what the mix was.
So after talking to my friend. He has forgotten the exact math. But his build was Fey Warlock / Horizon Walker Ranger.
I used to play a Necromancer in 3.5 that focused on just using the debuff spells like ray of enfeeblement. Much easier to question the chainmail wearing, two handed sword wielding fella once he's too weak to stand in his own armor.
To me magic doesn't have any innate morality. Not even neceomancy. Even the evil alignment of the undead is just expressing their insane and hostile to normal life outlook. They will attack normal life without fail because of their ties to the negitive plane and the torment they have endured. So it is a matter of how the caster takes this into account and utilizes their spells that decides whether they are using the magic in an evil way.
Great content guys...please keep up the great work :D
I'm still a firm believer that the school of Enchantment is more evil than Necromancy.
Figures that as I post this you bring that fact up...
healing spells like cure wounds are actually evocation not conjuration
Danse Macabre is fine so long as you’re a bard and raise the Dead with Michael Jackson’s Thriller or Beat Ghost’s Necromancin Dancin
**Bear Ghost's (auto-correct)
Class intro guys well done ser's
Aren't healing spells in 5e evocation spells.(life transference ignored ofc.) I guess it is manipulation of energy in a way.
Magic is what the Caster is.
I'm working on a Necromancer that instead tries to use his abilities to heal and help people. Using more utility spells and creating his own spells to give life to his allies. The caviat to this is that he has to get that life force from somewhere, so he has to take it from others to give it away. He's not good aligned, more lawful neutral due to the way he heals.
Life transfer might be a spell you should look into for such a build :)
i had some green magic but i think i did something wrong cause it all went up in smoke
I don't think that any spell can be inherently evil. It all depends on who or what they are used on or for.
All Magic, DND or otherwise is not inherently Good or Evil, it just is. Much like Star Wars and the Force, there is no Good Force nor Evil Force, it is how it is used. I understand the commoner view of "I dont understand it, you are bringing dead back, that is bad and possibly evil!" considering that most of the time when they encounter undead it is bad or evil, so I understand that in game you are fighting against a stereotype with the commoners; but i never understood when a DM forces a player to have an evil alignment just because he is a necromancer. I do know that some DMs prefer to make the change and say that Animate dead uses souls of the dead to animate the body. Thats fine, its your game, play it how you like. I still do not think it makes the spell, or necromancy in general, evil. I could use the souls of volunteers to fill the bodies, i could ask the spirit to return to protect their loved ones a final time, i could use the bodies of rapists and murders forcing them to perform good deeds in death as penance for their deeds in life.
I also never understood where this whole animating dead is thought to bring the persons soul back and rip it from its resting place. The spell say absolutely nothing about this happening, and the body is animated by the magic itself. Think of it more like the body is a puppet, and necromancy is the strings.
I also have to note, when i run a necromancer i use the bodies of the dead to protect the living. Why sacrifice the lives of the men and boys of a town to stand and protect the village when an army of the dead lay at your feet.
After spawning a few teenagers myself, I think Zombies might be the way to go! LOLOLOLOL that was great.
Ugg you raise a group of bandits one time to get skeletons to help plow a field for a elderly couple to have food and everyone thinks your evil but the cleric brings a vile noble back to life hes working wonders
My thoughts on fleshing out necromancy extends from LMoP's Red Wizard of Thay hanging out at the Old Owl Well. For some reason he commands 12 undead zombies, despite being only a lvl 4 'Evil Mage', so I reworked him to the lvl 12 necromancer in the back of Volo's Guide. His power is tempered by his dedication to abiding by Thay restrictions on using undead "The working-dead degrades the value of slave labor, and the slave-trader-lobby won out." One of the dead is his wife (a cleric slain by orcs), and he doesn't want to damage her in a fight; one of the undead regulations is to avoid raising and damaging the dead without clear need. The small horde includes a couple other companions, some orcs, and a few slaves bought from unlicensed red-cloaked slave-traders from Phandalin "Please don't tell the Slaver-Lobby, the Red of their cloaks confused me in my desperation." Also, he is NOT a Necromancer..."I am Archaeologist!" Hidden goal, not pissing off his mother-in-law. He will quit the Old Owl Well when his basic goals are complete; side goals include ensuring his little horde is given their permanent rest in accordance with their known or knowable beliefs.
Grey necromancy could be used as forensics. The necromancer could see what the murder victim saw or felt or smelled just before their demise. Probably getting to the victim/corpse within 12 hrs at lower levels. Able to get info after 24 or 48 or 72 hrs at higher levels. Also asking the dead ?? over a contested will. (Like speak w dead).
I cast True Resurrection on Malikieth the Dread Tyrant
I think the idea of zombies or undead always being evil is a bit simplistic and a symptom of everything this is wrong with the alignment system. They could just be considered neutral until animated to do good or evil by their creators.
I sure they could be or they could hunger for the life they lost. Maybe their evil they just want snuff out life and hate all that lives with a jealous passion.
Why not just cast animate object if you want nonaligned mindless automatons?
Everyone is welcome to homebrew whatever they want and make the game their own.
Nerdarchist Dave
zombies are evil, as they are animated with negative energy, when they are not controlled they crave flesh and souls and death... this however does not mean summoning them makes your character evil. demons are manifestations of evil, but it is not evil in itself to conjure one
College of undeath.....STOP MAKING ME WANT TO MAKE MORE HOMEBREWS I COULD WHIP UP A COLLEGE OF THE ANCESTERS GOSH DARN IT FOR RAISING AND ANIMATING DEAD THINGS
I personally like the way the grave cleric subclass seems to view necromancy :
Life and death is a natural cycle that should be preserved
Disrupting the rest of the dead by creating undead is necessarily bad
The preservation/return of the life of those whose time has not come is good
Expediting the death of those whose time has come is good
At least that's what I get from it
i look at alignment as something that can exist in 2 ways depending on world
cosmic alignment- there is a natural balance of positive and negative energies that must be maintained and to damage it is evil.
emotional alignment- did you make people sad? thats evil.
i prefer cosmic alignment myself as it fits the whole great wheel cosmology with the positive and negative planes though it also kind of removes the concept of "good and evil" altogether instead giving you a "positive or negative affinity" acting like a form of inverse magnetism drawing that soul to planes with similar charges in the afterlife.
this could also be a separate mechanic from alignment where as alignment is created by some kind of gods given law and doesnt really exist affinity is very real and will decide your fate if the gods dont intervene pulling your soul that carries the energy you accumulated closer to the positive or negative plane for draining into said plane.
It's not good or evil, it's cost and effect. The affects will only be seen as good or evil depending on who is using the ability and whom it is used on
Ted is what I imagine when I think necromancer
Shhh don't tell anyone about Ted's secret hobby.
Nerdarchist Dave
@@Nerdarchy Ohhh I umm, what's that behind you. (runs away. )
I would argue that Vampiric Touch iis no more evil than picking carrots. Imagine the horror of the carrots as their life is suddenly snuffed out to accoutrement your Caesar salad. You chokev rhythm first, by removing them from the soil, then decapitate them, dismember them, and dress them with a putrid concoction.
Question: if you use Life Transference, and drop yourself, do you benefit from Grim Harvest if you're of the School of Necromancy?
Remember that celestial pact warlocks get access to some cleric spells, and favored soul sorcerers gain access to all cleric spells. ;-)
That intro, as dm for a buch of teens my brothers group, dming zombies would yeild the same results
In my world there are laws on necromancy, basically anything that requires the necromancy victim to be willing is allowed, things like speak with dead that dont require the victim to be willing but don't like animate the corpse you need a permit and/or direct, witnessed permission from the victim. Animating corpses as zombies and the like is just illegal. Combat necromancy like vampiric touch or blight are under the same laws as all weapons and combat magic. As long as the combat itself is within the law, so is the use of that spell.
so basically I'm allowed to play a necromancer wizard I just can't ever benefit from my wizard sub class or i'm evil? ok. so from now on whenever you play your fighter battlemaster just never use your battle maneuvers because hurting people is bad and evil. I mean "how would you feel if someone came over and tripped you with a spear". oh also hurting or killing things with medieval weapons is bad and is a incredibly inhumane and painful way to die so no more attacking either. also dungeon crawling for loot is bad because that's pretty much stealing. so you can't dungeon crawl if your a good person. oh also saving the world with your adventuring party is bad because it's vigilantism. oh and adventuring is bad because your willingly homeless vagrants who don't contribute to the economy. so unless your a bad guy go back to your 9-5 job working a crop for the rest of your life. everytime you have this discussion you 2 just sit there and agree with each other with no one pushing back...
A key problem I have with 5e's take on necromancy is that all the black stuff since it was the main thing that did all the "unfun" it got changed to the point where besides the iconic dead animating spells all of them don't have the elements that actually make them dark.
If you want a couple examples of legitimate dark necromancy go to 2e's Death Spell where it kills them by snuffing out their life force making it so they have no soul to revive, or the same editions enervation where it suppresses their life force lowering their levels.
One of the problems of removing those sorts of mechanics is that now necromancies typical "dark" magic is now no worse than a fireball.
Previously one of dark necromancies hallmarks was the forceful tampering of the soul.
Now grey necromancy is being called dark because there are few non animation spells with the core darkness to them to compare with.
Vampiric Touch for example isn't dark, it's violent but not towards the soul it takes entirely physical life, rather than that of the spiritual kind, you can recover from it in just a couple of days.
This comment got way too long.
@@lijesewell764 no worries. That being said nothing wrong with home brewing the darkness back into your gaming world.
Nerdarchist Dave
You have heard of necromancy wizards but are you ready for:
Lore bards with necromancy spells
Life Transference is a Very white necromancy spell
I want to create a Voltaire type character that is a trifling warlock cleric combo. But not sure what spells would be great to use. Any suggestions?