We know of the apostasy of John Harvey Kellogg, the Alpha and Omega of Apostasy: "He [Kellogg] told me that HE NOW BELIEVED IN GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, and GOD THE HOLY GHOST;" {Letter by A. G. Daniells to W. C. White on October 29, 1903}
Powerful study brother!!! I appreciate how it is stated that the counsel of peace was brought forth in pain from the beginning. May God continue to bless through this ministry 🙏🏽 The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God.. Ed 263.1
SDA Statements which we hate to quote: A well-known Adventist Trinitarian Jerry Moon who was a co-author of the book The Trinity wrote: “That most of the leading SDA pioneers were non-Trinitarian in their theology has become accepted Adventist history.” He then goes on to say, “either the pioneers were wrong and the present church is right, or the pioneers were right and the present Seventh-day Adventist Church has apostatized from biblical truth.” - {Jerry Moon, The Trinity, Chapter, Trinity and antitrinitarianism in Seventh-day Adventist history, p. 190} "While NO SINGLE SCRIPTURAL PASSAGE states formally the doctrine of the Trinity, IT IS ASSUMED AS A FACT by Bible writers and mentioned several times. ONLY BY FAITH CAN WE ACCEPT THE EXISTENCE OF THE TRINITY." {Adventist Review, Vol. 158, No. 31, p. 4.}
Indeed by faith we know that God IS and the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. The whole Bible is a book of faith. We never see God but we believe Him to be true which leads us to believe His word to be true.
They were anti trinitarians as as defined by the Catholic church. SDA definition and the Catholic definition are two separate things. Current so called SDA anti trinitarians actually preaches the Catholics definition of of the word trinity while using the term anti trinitarians.
@@claudette1313 the passage you just quoted is from Hebrews 11, and said nothing about taking a trinity by faith. But I understand why you would reason like that, its pretty common nowadays. In the past the Catholic church used scriptures out of context in order to support their killing of native americans, the theft of their land etc. They used passages in Deuteronomy. What you just did, is use Hebrews 11's passage to teach having faith in a trinity, which the Bible doesnt teach. I understand. Mark Twain said that its easier to fool someone than to convince someone that they have been fooled.
@@claudette1313 which trinity do you believe in? Many christians also do not agree upon which version of the Trinity they believe: In general, there are three main categories of how trinity or triunity is understood: 1. Consubstantial trinity - This version of trinity is characterized as a single divine “Being,” comprised of three “Persons”, sharing one indivisible (undivided) substance (Catholic/Orthodox trinity and many theologian class of SDA Church who are heavily influenced by evangelical authors would fall under this category ). (“One Being” = “3 Persons”; “Being” and “Person” is distinguished) 2. Modalistic trinity - This version of trinity is comprised of three modes or roles occupied by single divine individual wherein one God is manifesting or revealing himself in three different ways, without distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature. (i.e. Father is Jesus, Father is the Holy Spirit, etc.; same person operating in 3 different modes) 3. Tritheistic trinity - The "trinity" is comprised of three distinct divine “persons” but they understand “persons” as individual Beings; who all have same power, same nature, purpose, etc. Because they are in agreement in everything they do, they are said to be “one God,” not that all three make up a single Being (Majority of Seventh-day Adventist trinitarians would fall under this category).
What's odd is that the SDA church says it agrees with the Nicene Creed of 325AD, which clearly states that Jesus is begotten from eternity: "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made..."
Please note that this creed was slightly amplified at Constantinople in 381 A.D. Nicene Creed quoted in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Sixth edition, revised and enlarged, Volume I, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1977, pp.28,29.
EW uses this passage from Pro 8:22 to show the son. Calling it wisdom is fine because God and son are also referred to as wisdom. It’s clear that Ivor just wants to dance around it.
Pr Myers, If we look at Pr 8, it's talking about wisdom. Wisdom originates from the Father, it's not something that exists by itself...it has a place of origin. This also applies our saviour, Jesus. Christ never existed by himself, he had a place of origin... His father. We live in a age that now questions this, just like Lucifer did in heaven. This knowledge is brought to us through the writings of sister White and the pioneers, and we can safely conclude this because we are both SDA's.
We find this question in the Catholic Catechism, “What is Sunday...” Their answer is that SUNDAY “is a day dedicated by the Apostles to the HONOR OF THE MOST HOLY TRINITY.” - (RH, vol. 5, no. 24, p. 86)
You have much theory but no Truth. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7. If you would argue less and listen more, you would understand much. The presentation here was clear and succinct. Christ IS GOD, from eternity past to eternity future. The same yesterday today and forever. Don't overcomplicate things.
@@moseskamau4989 “NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME; the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath DECLARED HIM.” (John 1:18, KJV) Did anybody on earth see Jesus? “And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and WE SAW HIS GLORY, glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14, NASB) If you are saying that Christ is the God Who man never saw, then you have rejected John 1:18 as being false. Clearly, no man on earth has seen the Only True God of John 17:3. Men and women have seen the Only Begotten Son Who was sent according to John 1:14,18; 3:16; John 17:3-8. Like John, Paul also taught that God could not be seen nor approached by earthly human beings: “WHO ALONE possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom NO MAN HAS SEEN OR CAN SEE. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” (1 Timothy 6:16, NASB) “Now unto the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Timothy 1:17, KJV) If any man teach otherwise, we are commanded to reject their message: “Anyone who goes too far and does NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10. If anyone comes to you and DOES NOT BRING THIS TEACHING, DO NOT RECEIVE HIM into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11. for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.” (2 John 9-11, NASB)
@@moseskamau4989 Ellen White was Non-Trinitarian. She believed that teachings which destroyed the personality of God and His Son were doctrinal delusions: “The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the PERSONALITY and INDIVIDUALITY of each… GOD IS THE FATHER OF CHRIST; CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD. To Christ has been GIVEN AN EXALTED POSITION. He has been MADE EQUAL with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son.” {Ellen White, Testimonies for the Church, volume 8, page 268, paragraph 1} “Wonderful statement! The UNITY that exists between CHRIST and HIS DISCIPLES does NOT DESTROY the PERSONALITY OF EITHER. They are ONE IN PURPOSE, in mind, in character, but NOT IN PERSON. It is thus that GOD and CHRIST are one.” {Ellen White, Testimonies for the Church, volume 8, page 269, paragraph 4} “The relation between the FATHER and the SON, and the PERSONALITY OF BOTH, are made plain in this scripture also:” “Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying, Behold, the man whose name is the Branch: And He shall grow up out of His place; And He shall build the temple of Jehovah;... And He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule upon His throne; And He shall be a priest upon His throne; And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both.” Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R. V. {Ellen White, Testimonies for the Church, volume 8, page 269, paragraph 5&6} "The oneness existing between the Father and the Son does not affect the DISTINCT PERSONALITY OF EACH." {14MR 220.4} "The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is TRULY GOD in INFINITY, but NOT IN PERSONALITY." {UL 367.4} "Christ is one with the Father, but God and Christ are TWO DISTINCT PERSONAGES." {UL 153.3} “Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. THERE ARE THE TWO PERSONALITIES, but GOD AND CHRIST are one in perfection of character.” (Ms116-1905.15) *“He who denies the PERSONALITY OF GOD AND OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, is denying GOD and CHRIST.* If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the PERSONALITY of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with Him in love.” {E.G. White; Review & Herald, March 8, 1906, paragraph 19} “Those who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast; they are not remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the PILLARS OF OUR FAITH CONCERNING the SANCTUARY or concerning the PERSONALITY OF GOD or OF CHRIST, are working as blind men. They are seeking to bring in UNCERTAINTIES and to set the people of God adrift without an anchor.” {E. G. White, Manuscript Release No.760, p. 9} 1905 "Living Temple" contains the alpha of these theories. I knew that the omega would follow in a little while; and I trembled for our people. I knew that I must warn our brethren and sisters not to enter into controversy over the presence and PERSONALITY OF GOD. The statements made in "Living Temple" in regard to this point are incorrect. The scripture used to substantiate the doctrine there set forth, is scripture misapplied.” SpTB02 53.2 “The spiritualistic theories regarding the PERSONALITY OF GOD, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people.” SpTB02 54.1 And which doctrine denies the *"PERSONALITY" OF GOD* and HIS SON which is denying God and Christ? SDA Pioneer Ellen White's husband explains: “Here we might mention *“the TRINITY,” which does away the PERSONALITY of GOD, and of HIS SON JESUS CHRIST,* and of sprinkling or pouring instead of being ‘buried with Christ in baptism,’ ‘planted in the likeness of his death’: but we pass from these fables to notice one that is held sacred by nearly all professed Christians, both Catholic and Protestant.” {James White, RH, p. 85, 1855} SDA Pioneer J.N. Andrews wrote: *“The doctrine of the TRINITY which was established in the church by the council of Nice, a. d. 325. This doctrine DESTROYS the PERSONALITY OF GOD, and HIS SON JESUS CHRIST our Lord.* The infamous measures by which it was forced upon the church, which appear upon the pages of ecclesiastical history might well cause every believer in that doctrine to blush.” “If the church had not intoxicated the world with the WINE of her false doctrines, the plain truths of the Bible would powerfully move the public mind. But the world seems hopelessly DRUNKEN with the WINE OF BABYLON.” TAR 54.1 - TAR 56.3 {An excerpt from J. N. Andrews in his book, the "Three Angel's of Revelation 14:6-12”, pages 54.1 - 56.3}
@@kylontobiasGods word the Bible studied correctly, rightly dividing the word of truth, staying consistent with the actual narrative of the entire Bible. Not hand selecting one or two verses for doctrinal establishment while contradicting the dozens of others. This study was clear concise and was a home run.
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. How can Proverbs 8 refer the "incarnate son of God" if it was "from eternity...before the hills". And if it was just Christ begotten of Mary as a man, this implies God didn't really give His only begotten Son, but rather they(not he) gave their second person, and they had to come up with a plan, and they had to take roles since they were co-equal, co-eternal, and ultimately the Father is not really a Father, but he only faked, acted, or pretended to be the Father of a co-eternal brother. And the Father didn't take the role of the Father UNTIL Christ was brought forth ( not before the hills, not from the days of eternity) but rather from Mary. Proverbs 8 refers to Christ "from the beginning" "In the beginning was the word", furthermore he is "the only begotten" as one "brought up with him", it is a real Father/Son relationship, and Father gave everything to Christ, He didn't just role play a Father. And by giving Christ to us, our Father gave everything to us. And it wasn't "you take the role". Christ went unto the Father and begged Him, and it was a hard thing for Father to let His Son go. “Angels were expelled from heaven ... This fact the [fallen] angels would obscure, that Christ was the only begotten Son of God...” { EGWhite TDG 128.2} Be Careful. Blessings, David.
All of this is human reasoning. Did we not demonstrate the wisdom is the personification of "Jesus"? Jesus is speaking to the "sons of men". Is this not enough to show that the person speaking is one who is addressing humans. The question you ask, is like asking how can the lamb of God have existed back before the foundation of the world if he wasn't born till in the days of Rome. You are repeating talking points of what you learned from AT and not allowing the Bible to interpret itself. Present you text, not an Ellen White quote as your evidence. This is where we need to be careful.
@@powerofthelamb Proverbs 8:22-30 is talking about Christ "as one brought up with him." As far as having his delights with the sons of men. This was certainly something he created, and furthermore came down to save. This certainly does not imply that he was not begotten before the world was or that he was not brought up by the Father and given everything and taught everything before the world was. There was a Father/Son relationship before the world was. This is what made it a hard thing for the Father to give His Son to the world. Micah 5:2 tells us about the birth of Christ, not just in Bethlehem, but also in heaven. "Whose goings forth are from the days of eternity." The Hebrew term for "Goings forth" is "origin" or "family descent". The word "Origin" implies his "beginning". "whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”" NIV "one whose origins[d] are in the distant past.[e]" (NET) "whose origin is from of old, from ancient days." NRSV "whose origins are in the distant past, will come from you on my behalf." NLV “Goings Forth” מוֹצָאָה môtsâ'âh mo-tsaw-aw' Feminine of H4161; a family descent; also a sewer (compare H6675): - draught house; going forth. Total KJV occurrences: 2 In other words he was "Brought forth...set up from everlasting" (Prov 8:22-25) Or Begotten. The word Begotten is the Greek Monogenes. The word Genes is Greek from the word Genesis, or Genetic. Genesis means Beginning. Christ is the MONOGENES son, in other words "In the beginning was the word" and he tells us " I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning... I was brought forth, before the mountains...". And so you know EGWhite and EJ Waggoner and several others use these 2 passages, Micah 5:2, and Proverbs 8:22-30 in connection with one another to refer to the birth of Christ before creation. So there you have your text, unless you deny the word "goings forth" to imply his "origin, beginning, family descent, or birth". Blessings, David.
The SDA Non Trinitarian movement does not deny the divinity of Christ. He is fully God as His Father, because He brought forth from His Father bossom. Its the same principle with Adam and Eve. Eve is fully human thou she came out from Adam, Adam is the source and He is older, no christian will say that Eve is not a human or a lesser human because she litterally came from Adam. Same principle when Mary brought forth baby Jesus. jesus is fully human, because the fact of He came out from a human. Nobody will say that Jesus is a lesser human than Mary. The SDA non trinitarian do worship Christ Here is the principle : If we honor the Son, the honor doesnt stop at the son, but goes to the father. If you praise the son of someone, you praising his father. If the you honor and bow down to the prince, you are honoring the prince father, the King. John 5:23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. All the glory to Jesus, doesnt stop at Jesus but goes to our God and Father Phi 4: 19And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus. 20To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen. The God of Jesus, The Father of Jesus gave Jesus all power, and the Glory that Christ receiveth goes to the Father John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand-with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. Angels submit to the Son, who sit at God's right hand. Only two divine being sit together. All the host of heaven knows who they worship, all the earth will join all the heaven and, and they only worship 2 divine beings, no third being is worship by heaven and earth. Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” To Him (Singular), a singular God who sit on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor, glory and power for ever and ever. We worship, we pray, we give glory to God our Father thru and in His Son. the end will comw, and the Son will hand over the kingdom to God, His Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. Yes the One true God movement worship Jesus as the The Son of God, as the Lord and savior, and we know when we do this, all glory and praise will go to the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Because His Father gave all power amd authority only to His only Son, He is to be worshipped Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed The Father gave command to the angels to worship His Son. Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” All the disciples worship Jesus on the basis of His Sonship, of the facts that Christ is the Son of God Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
@@tanyajawabalkitab6414 Glad you believe Jesus Christ is God and deserves all our worship and praise. Amen 🙏 We love, praise and worship you Father We love, praise and worship you Holy Spirit We love, praise and worship you Jesus Christ
@@elenaruiz73 there is not a single verse in the bible to worship what the trinitarian called God the holy spirit. we need to pray IN spirit, not TO God the holy spirit. we demand the written word of God. It is written, not asumption.
@@tanyajawabalkitab6414 Isaiah 63:10-11 Psalms 51:11 , Daniel 4:8 and 18 , Luke 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:8…. All these scriptures point to the Holy Spirit as being a part of God. The Holy Spirit is given by God because it is a part of himself. May God’s grace impart upon you discernment through his Holy Spirit. Personally, I will respectfully not engage you further. Peace
@@elenaruiz73 respectfully those verses are not telling us to worship what the trinitarian called god the holy spirit. plain and simple. blessing, honor, and glory, and power to HIM (God the Father) that sits on the throne and to the lamb (The Son). plain and simple. all praise and worship of heaven and earth only to the Father and to His Son Rev 4: 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be to him that sits on the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. the four beast said AMEN. no more being to be included in their adoration. 14.... And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that lives for ever and ever the 24 elders fell down and worshipped HIM. who is the HIM, a singular being, the Father. we worship the Father, we pray to the Father thru His Son. Christ is the way, the only way to go to the father. plain and simple, all base in a written scriptures. no asumption and fantasy. 1Co 1:3 KJV Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Your prophet Ellen White said: *“He who denies the personality of God and of His Son Jesus Christ, is denying God and Christ.* If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with Him in love.” (E.G. White; RH, par. 19, 1906) And which doctrine denies the *"personality" of God* and His Son which is denying God and Christ? Ellen White's husband explains: “Here we might mention *“the TRINITY,” which does away the personality of God, and of His Son Jesus Christ,* and of sprinkling or pouring instead of being ‘buried with Christ in baptism,’ ‘planted in the likeness of his death’: but we pass from these fables to notice one that is held sacred by nearly all professed Christians, both Catholic and Protestant.” (James White, RH, p. 85, 1855)
@@powerofthelamb it seems like you always hate ellen white statements when it says something different to your claims. Why do you hate her statements when she is your prophet?
@@powerofthelamb “I have said, Ye are GODS (elohim); and all of you are children of the most High. 7. But ye shall DIE LIKE MEN, and fall like one of the princes.” (Psalms 82:6-7, KJV) Were these humans truly elohim? “And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a GOD (elohim) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” (Exodus 7:1, KJV) Was Moses truly elohim?
As usual, I was deeply blessed by your study, especially of this topic. Thank you for sharing these beautiful insights into the amazing love of God. My husband is an anti-trinitarian. I can’t express the division this has created in our home and marriage. I had to stop talking about it with him because it always ended so badly. The vitriol against the church, the anger and the nonsensical reasoning is of a nature I cannot describe. It’s difficult to know how to move forward. But I believe prayer will provide the answer one day. God bless you and your family Pastor. You are truly a man of God. 😊
I know exactly what you're going through sister, I'm a Seventh day Adventist, but my husband is completely opposed, when I try and talk about the truths and Jesus soon return, it always ends in fighting, it breaks my heart so badly! But I stand true to God's Word, and the Message of the 3 Angels, I pray that God gives you and me grace to know how to speak to our husbands, and just remember God's grace is sufficient for you! Blessings to you, and just pray for your family because God will save them!! 🙌🏻❤️🙏🏻
@@ShellyManning1984 Thank you Shelly. I pray God blesses you and yours as well. I know there are many people in similar situations. Let’s just focus on Jesus and remain faithful. ✝️
Keep him in prayer sister. I too reject the Trinity doctrine and a lot of us went through a hard time because the local churches labelled us as heretics and turned out friends away from us... Calling us names and saying things to others what we believe when it wasn't true. It was one way of keeping others in darkness to the the infiltration of apostasy that our church has accepted from Babylon... The Trinity. 15 years I stood alone here in New Zealand, but today many stand with me on this beautiful truth of Father and Son. What the message did was that it truely changed my heart because of God's love.
Can a spirit bleed….? Oh what manner of Love is this? You put on flesh… Oh the Long suffering… of infinite wisdom who can comprehend it?! Thank you Jesus! God you are infinite, that means you are outside of… yet within our reality, omnipresent… pleading with the Father my Blood! my Blood! Is sufficient. Before you sin I choose you! Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus!
I am not sure why ATs who watch this don’t see that I’ve actually said that wisdom is Jesus in Proverbs 8. Are you so used to hearing that argument that you miss when someone clearly points out in the first like 15 minutes of the video that Wisdom is Jesus personified? Also, do we need SOP to verify this? Doesn’t the Bible do so on its own? Why can’t we stick to meeting the challenge based on the Bible only. ATs do not appear to be able to prove their position solely from the Bible.
The word of God is clear . He have a Son to have according to John 3:16. No matter how many will try to change or interpret the Father was loud to said This is my Begotten Son. Sadly as the Jews time the kept the sabbath but rejected the Son of God. How a Son is same age like the Father? If it is so then The Father and the Son are liars and that exactly what the Trinity said. Hope and praying very soon many Adventist open their eyes of what God said and not to men. “When the power of God testifies as to what is truth, that truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after suppositions contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise, and still another, with new light, which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat, and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard-bearers who have fallen in death are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time Christ in His Sanctuary 19.1
Isaiah 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
The problem today is that many trust in church fundamental beliefs, church creeds, church pastors, and church prophets more than a PLAIN THUS SAITH THE LORD. The following statements I agree with 100%: "But God will have a people upon the earth to MAINTAIN THE BIBLE, AND THE BIBLE ONLY, as the STANDARD of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the CREEDS or DECISIONS of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the VOICE OF THE MAJORITY-NOT ONE NOR ALL of these SHOULD BE REGARDED AS EVIDENCE FOR OR AGAINST any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should DEMAND A PLAIN “THUS SAITH THE LORD” in its support." {Great Controversy, 595.1} "SATAN IS CONSTANTLY endeavoring to attract attention to MAN IN the PLACE OF GOD. He leads the people to look to BISHOPS, to PASTORS, to PROFESSORS OF THEOLOGY, AS THEIR GUIDES, INSTEAD OF SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURES to learn their duty FOR THEMSELVES. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will." {Great Controversy, 595.2} “There is a sad neglect of reading the Bible and searching it with humble hearts for yourselves. TAKE NO MAN'S EXPLANATION OF SCRIPTURE, whatever his position, but go to the Bible and SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH YOURSELVES. After hearing Jesus, the Samaritans said, “Now we believe, NOT because of THY SAYING: for we have heard Him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” There is the mine of truth. Sink the shaft deep, and you will possess that knowledge which is of highest value to you. Many have become lazy and criminally neglectful in regard to the searching of the Scriptures, and they are as destitute of the Spirit of God as of the knowledge of His word.” TM 155.1 “There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” CW 35.2 “We are living in perilous times, and it does not become us to accept everything claimed to be truth without examining it thoroughly; neither can we afford to reject anything that bears the fruits of the Spirit of God; but we should be teachable, meek and lowly of heart. There are those who oppose everything that is not in accordance with their own ideas, and by so doing they endanger their eternal interest as verily as did the Jewish nation in their rejection of Christ.” CW 35.3 “The Lord DESIGNS that our opinions shall be put to the test, that we may see the necessity of closely examining the living oracles to see whether or not we are in the faith. Many who claim to believe the truth have settled down at their ease, saying, “I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing.”-The Review and Herald, December 20, 1892. CW 36.1 “The language of the Bible should be EXPLAINED ACCORDING TO ITS OBVIOUS MEANING, UNLESS A SYMBOL OR FIGURE IS EMPLOYED. Christ has given the promise: “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.” John 7:17. If men would but take the BIBLE AS IT READS, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error.” GC 598.3 “While every ingenious inquirer is to search out the truth as it is in Jesus, there are things not yet simplified, statements that human minds cannot grasp and reason out, without being liable to make HUMAN CALCULATION AND EXPLANATIONS, which will not prove a savor of life unto life.” CW 48.3 “But every truth which is essential for us to bring into our practical life, which concerns the salvation of the soul, is made very clear and positive.”-Preach the Word, 6, 7 (1895). CW 49.1 “We are to GIVE THEM THE WORD OF GOD JUST AS IT IS, with AS FEW OF OUR OWN EXPLANATIONS as possible. No one mind can do this work alone. Although we have in trust the grandest and most important truth ever presented to the world, we are only babes, as far as understanding truth in all its bearings is concerned. Christ is the great teacher, and that which He revealed to John, we are to tax our minds to understand and clearly to define. We are facing the most important issues that men have ever been called upon to meet.” CW 29.2 “The minister of Christ should be a Bible student, that his mind may be stored with Bible evidence; for a minister is strong only when he is fortified with Scripture truth. Argument is good in its place, but far more can be reached by SIMPLE EXPLANATIONS of the WORD OF GOD. The lessons of Christ were illustrated so clearly that the lowest and most simple-minded could readily comprehend them. Jesus did not employ long and difficult words in his discourses, but used PLAIN LANGUAGE, adapted to the minds of the common people. He ventured no further into the subject he was expounding than they were able to follow him.” GW92 70.3 While at the same time: "You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE NEEDED THE TESTIMONIES." 5T 664.3
How bad this must look to onlookers who think SDA's base their teachings on the Ellen White instead of the Bible. In all of this, not a verse used to defend your position but multiple quotes about how we should use the Bible. Then..no bible is presented.
@@powerofthelamb This was sent to you who believeand have used the writings of Ellen White. My aim was to use language that you should be familiar with so that you and some of your audience can be encouraged to study the bible more than before. You are seeing the Ellen White quotations, while God knows that the motive of me posting those statements were to promote the fact that our doctrines should come from the Bible only, without the use of Ellen White, pastors, bible teachers, bible commetaries or church fundamental beliefs. What is sad is that many will see that you did not read my post to see the main message, but instead to judged me as just posting Ellen White, while I am not even her biggest fan. I am also not your critic nor your enemy. I aim to raise real concerns about unbiblical teachings. Here are some scriptures which I suspect you will refuse to respond to: The personality of the Father also existed before the personality of the Son, But their divinity is the same eternal substance. “26. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” (Genesis 1:26-27, NASB) Some people imagine that because Genesis 1:26,27 says that God said "Let Us" that it meant that God is a comprised of 3 Persons as the "Us" and that all 3 were speaking at the same time as the "Us." However when we look at Who gave the commands elsewhere in scripture, we see a pattern of the Father speaking to His Son. For example: Psalm 110:1,4. And according to Proverbs 30:4, it was the Father and His Son who created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 1:2,10, shows that it was the hands of God's Son which laid the foundation of the earth. Colossians 1:16 says, "..by Him were all things created." Therefore it is not hard to conceive that The Father spoke to His Son saying, "Let Us make man in Our Image." As seen in Proverbs 30:4, we see 2 divine Beings. And therefore Genesis 1:26,27 showed 2 human beings created in the image of God. Having seen from the Bible first that principle, lets see what Ellen White had to say: *“The FATHER and the SON* engaged in the mighty, wondrous work they had contemplated of creating the world.” (SR 20.1) “After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the *FATHER and SON carried out THEIR purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in THEIR OWN IMAGE.* They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now *GOD SAID TO HIS SON, "LET US make man in OUR IMAGE."* (SR 20.2) Consider Adam and Eve: “21. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took *one of HIS RIBS* and closed up the flesh at that place. 22. The *Lord God fashioned into a woman the RIB which He had taken FROM THE MAN,* and brought her to the man. 23. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”” (Genesis 2:21-23, NASB) The rib substance 🦴 🩻 of Adam existed before Eve's Personality. That Adam aged Rib, which was now in Eve, was older than Eve's personality. The bones in Eve were Adam's, and therefore Adam's bone in her was as old as Adam's bones yet older than Eve's personality. But Adam's personality is elder and existed longer than Eve's personality. The bones in Eve existed before her personality. This was simply an imperfect representation for us to understand the Father and the Son. It is imperfect because the FATHER DID NOT CREATE THE SON AS EVE WAS CREATED. THE SON CAME OUT OF THE FATHER but was NOT created. He was born from the Father. Jesus' divinity is AS ETERNAL AS THE FATHER. But Jesus' Individual Personality and Authority is not as eternal as His Father's. Jesus' Personality had a beginning long before earthly time. “But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the MAN IS the HEAD of a WOMAN, and GOD is the HEAD of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3, NASB) As Adam was the head of Eve. God IS the HEAD of Jesus. And Jesus is the head of the man. In the following, we see Two Divine Beings, but the Only True God is the Head Who sends Christ on His mission to do as He saw His Head do: “Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5:19, NASB) In the following we also see that as Jesus' Head sent Him on His mission, so Christ, as the Head of His disciples and of His church, sends them and we can be a part of His disciples if we believe that He is indeed the Son of God. We can be sure that He did not send us to say that "He is the God Who sent Himself" because He does not want us to send ourselves with our own made up messages: “21. So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; AS the FATHER has SENT ME, I ALSO SEND YOU.” 22. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:21-22, NASB) He breathes upon us the soul of His own life in giving us His Spirit. Jesus is not the Only True God of John 17:3. That doesn't demote Him. It uplifts Him because it is to teach what He taught.
John, 17 came into question about who was above whom and I stated that john 17 is an intimate conversation between the Father and the Son and for us to understand that salvation was being worked out on our behalf and we should just listen in and understand that they "got this!"
*Was Christ ever begotten or not?* W. W. Prescott presented a series of eight devotionals for the 1919 Bible Conference titled “The Person of Christ.” While affirming the eternity of the Son, he also said that He derived his existence from the Father. He said: -- "There is a proper sense, as I view it, according to which the Son is subordinate to the Father, but that subordination is not in the question of attributes or His existence. It is simply in the fact of the derived existence, as we read in John 5:26: “For as the Father hath life in himself, even so, gave he to the Son also to have life in himself. ”Using terms as we use them, the Son is co-eternal with the father. That does not prevent His being the only-begotten Son of God." Prescott found himself in an awkward position. 1. Those arguing against the eternity of Christ wondered how Christ could be “begotten” and “co-eternal” with the Father. -------------- vs ----------- 2. Others who agreed with Prescott on Christ’s eternity wondered about his use of the word “derived. Finally, at the end of the discussion, Prescott borrowed an idea shared at the conference by H. C. Lacey with the following summary statement regarding Christ: -- “One with the Father, one in authority, power, love, mercy, and all the attributes-equal with him and yet second in nature. I like the word ‘second’ better than ‘inferior,’ -second in rank. Is this where we are again? *SOURCE:* -- 1919 Bible Conference transcript, July 2, 1919, afternoon discussions, 20.
Since this, I’ve read Eph 1:4 4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.” The timing of the foundation of the world applies to us also! And from the book In These Last Days 10 2022 Bible BookShelf: The Message of Hebrews: Ch 3: "Today, I Have Begotten You: When did Jesus become the only begotten son? At the ascension when he was seated at the right hand of God as the Ruler of the World…"
Powerful Teaching Brother Ivor. The Message and the amplifying Power of the Microphone is enough to reach every humble ear. Maybe God is trying to show you, that although you are euphoric and ob fire for him, you should not 'gas out' your voice. Besides your brain it is your Working Tool and you should treat it with gentle Care. The Lord and your Listeners need you for many more years, so maybe you can consider working on your Preaching volume. God bless you my Brother.
@@powerofthelamb 🤣 because you are yet to quote a scripture where Jesus clearly says that the Only True God is a combination of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Please post the scriptures which says that in context of God teaching the Singleness of God.
@@kylontobias I have not presented that challenge. The burden isn’t on me at this point. I’m just asking you if Jesus is “truly” God. Not sure why I’m not getting an answer.
@@powerofthelamb whether its your challenge, or not, whether its your burden or not, we both KNOW that there is not evident contextual teaching that God is a trinity in the gospels. And that is a fact. One has to cherry pick, prooftext and ask philosophical questions.
Most non trinitarians love MC Wilcox. Yet Wilcox agrees w Pastor Myers: MC Wilcox on the futility of attempting to ascertain as to whether the Son has a beginning or is eternal: "It would clearly seem that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have existed to eternity. This is a question that is utterly and absolutely incomprehensible by man. "Who by searching can find out God?" Of the Son it is said, in predicting His coming in the flesh, "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5: 2. The margin reads, "the days of eternity." In the first chapter of John we read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made 24 Questions and Answers that was made." Verses 1-3. Certainly no mortal or finite mind can comprehend what lies beyond that period."
@@rescuebabybirds provide evidence from inspiration that there was a time when time did not exist please. Eternity is comprised of unending time in the past, so to claim that there was a time when time did not exist is to claim that there was a time when eternity did not exist, no? Did you love your father prior to your existence? If no, then there is an eternity of time prior to your existence that you did not love your father as you did not exist.
Chris, is it more correct to say Pastor Myers agrees with M. C. Wilcox "on the futility of attempting to ascertain as to whether the Son has a beginning or is eternal?"
@@cmc8176 To say the least, I find it interesting that this man whom non trinitarians revere was unable to say with certainty as to whether the Son has a beginning or is eternal. Ellen White is quite clear nevertheless as to whether Jesus is eternal or not: The Word existed as a divine being, even as the ETERNAL Son of God, in union and oneness with His Father. From everlasting He was the Mediator of the covenant, the one in whom all nations of the earth, both Jews and Gentiles, if they accepted Him, were to be blessed. “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Before men or angels were created, the Word was with God, and was God.-The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906.
@@rescuebabybirds please provide INSPIRATION to prove that there was a time when time did not exist. If this is true then eternity past clearly had a beginning as YOU SEE IT, as eternity is comprised of time.
Dear Ivor, why cannot the two options you put against each other go together? To let Your (God's) litteral Son be the One to Redeem fallen (if be) angels as well as man, is enormus!!!. And to let Jesus, already before anything / one was created, be that surety shows a Godhead with a united love that make none of them less then any other of them. To begett a child is not the same as to create. The child comes from both his/her father and his/her mother and are the same "substanse" as the parents. In other words - Jesus is as much Gud as the Father, in that respect! If it is less to say that Jesus / Michael /The Only Begotten Son of the Father is litteraly begotten, I do not understand how such a thought can occur! But to say that that is the biggest thing to be born (looking at Jesus), is surely to missunderstand the whole plan of salvation! That the Godhead unitedly agreed, before sin ever entered, that the Son will be our "Sacrificial Lamb" is " the mistery of tru love, from the whole Godhead, I belive. Agreed on before the fondation of the world, and even worlds. That's how I understand it - and it is mindbogglins as a parent! That makes Jesus as big / loving as the Father. Sr. White writes somewhere that it was Jesus' suggestion that He would be our Sacriface and that the Father struggeled to let that be, , but because of His own (the Fathers) love for us, He Ageed! I hope you can see my piont and that it will not disturbe you unnesseserely! Greetings from an old lady, from Sweden
I dont have a problem with the two positions meeting if we can agree that Jesus has always existed. Once we say there was a time he did not exist, it doesn’t matter how we say he came into existence (begotten vs. created). Both only that at one time did not exist and thus cannot be God, one cannot become God is any “sense” of the word. When we say Jesus is God in a particular “sense” we are saying he is not actually equal with God.
To be described as the word shows that Jesus was the principal carrier of meaning. Meaning actually means to be pregnant 😅 which is also to understand wisdom, and wisdom is the ability to conceive ideas and carry it through and so being referenced to as ‘she’ is demonstrated in the creation of Eve who represented the physical embodiment of God’s mind. She, the woman becomes impregnated and holds/carries each ‘conception’ likewise the body of Christ, His bride is told to have the mind of Jesus.
As someone who was on the otherside of the Proverbs 8 question im inclined to believe this is refering to the incarnation of Jesus in light of Psalm 2.
Despite the actual text speaking as clear as day, that this incarnate Christ was “brought forth” “before the earth ever was”. It’s so clear yet it goes right over your head. Of COURSE the focus is on the incarnate Christ! But what is the basis of the beauty CONCERNING the incarnate Christ? That He is the Divine eternal Son of God that was BROUGHT FORTH “before the hills”, or “ever the earth was”. From everlasting. It’s so clear anyone who wants to do what is right and has spiritual eyesalve, will see it. It’s flashing back to the eternal divine origins of this incarnate Son. It blows my mind how Ivor cannot see it.
My brother! Praise God! Please continue to allow the Scripture to speak. When you approach it this way, you will also see the truth shine through in the writings of the SOP.
@@Rymmila praise God brother! So clear! If Trinitarians had only taken the time to study out in-depth materials on these such as that by Terry Hill and AsItReads. As we have addressed ALL these objections.
John : 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Jesus Is Equal with God Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. The Authority of the Son Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Philippians 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Colossians 1:15-20 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. The Rider on a White Horse Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
The SDA Non Trinitarian movement does not deny the divinity of Christ. He is fully God as His Father, because He brought forth from His Father bossom. Its the same principle with Adam and Eve. Eve is fully human thou she came out from Adam, Adam is the source and He is older, no christian will say that Eve is not a human or a lesser human because she litterally came from Adam. Same principle when Mary brought forth baby Jesus. jesus is fully human, because the fact of He came out from a human. Nobody will say that Jesus is a lesser human than Mary. The SDA non trinitarian do worship Christ Here is the principle : If we honor the Son, the honor doesnt stop at the son, but goes to the father. If you praise the son of someone, you praising his father. If we honor and bow down to the prince, we are honoring the prince father, the King. John 5:23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. All the glory to Jesus, doesnt stop at Jesus but goes to our God and Father Phi 4: 19And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus. 20To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen. The God of Jesus, The Father of Jesus gave Jesus all power, and the Glory that Christ receiveth goes to the Father John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand-with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. Angels submit to the Son, who sit at God's right hand. Only two divine being sit together. All the host of heaven knows who they worship, all the earth will join all the heaven and, and they only worship 2 divine beings, no third being is worship by heaven and earth. Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” To Him (Singular), a singular God who sit on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor, glory and power for ever and ever. We worship, we pray, we give glory to God our Father thru and in His Son. the end will come, and the Son will hand over the kingdom to God, His Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. Yes, the One true God movement worship Jesus as the The Son of God, as the Lord and savior, and we know when we do this, all glory and praise will go to the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Because His Father gave all power amd authority only to His only Son, He is to be worshipped Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed The Father gave command to the angels to worship His Son. Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” All the disciples worship Jesus on the basis of His Sonship, of the facts that Christ is the Son of God Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
7 witnesses that Jesus has a God: 1. God (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:8,9) 2. Jesus (Mark 15:34, John 20:17, Rev 3:12) 3. Gabriel (Revelation 3:12) 4. John (John 20:17, Revelation 3:12) 5. Paul (2Cor 11:31; Eph 1:3,17; Heb 1:8,9) 6. Mark (Mark 15:34) 7. David (Psalm 45:7; 89:26) How many witnesses that Jesus' Father has a God? Zero (0)
@@powerofthelamb this is the 5th time you are asking after I quoted Hebrews 1:9 saying that God described His Son as God while describing Himself as His Son's God. Are you trolling me? Or are you forgetful? 😅🤣
A fallacy that both Trinitarians and One True God people fall into is to assume the immutability of time. Through Christ, ALL things were created. Why do people think that time is uncreated? Kronos was a Greek god not a Biblical one. OTG people assume some kind of time before time, making Christ defacto created. As a result the time fallacy, Trinitarians have to posit that Christ is not actually begotten(alternate meaning is brought forth), ie. he always existed as we understand Him as God...and time. Trinitarians can't take John 3:16 just as it reads. That God transcends time and exists independent of time is impossible for us finite beings to comprehend.
So sad. What terrible warfare against Christ’s Divine Sonship. I can tell by the way you are presenting everything that you never really took the time to watch the 2 new videos produced by Judgment Hour (a TH-cam channel). In This Was Manifested the Love of God - Parts 1 and 2. You really need to watch these videos before you proceed.
@@powerofthelamb I think you forget a very important fact. SDA Trinitarians are always using Ellen White to prove the Trinity. They always quote her "three person statements" whenever you use the Bible. The purpose of Judgment Hour's videos is to help SDA Trinitarians see that Ellen White was not a Trinitarian like SDAs claim she was. If SDA Trinitarians are willing to stick with the Bible alone, we are more than willing to do that too. But we always run into situations when we are presenting a Bible study, and the first thing the SDA Trinitarians do is throw Ellen White in our face to try and prove the Trinity. This has been my experience anyway.
@marcosc.thaler2570 wasn't Judgment Hour ministry the ministry that MISQUOTED the historian Alexander Hyslop? Wasn't this the ministry that tried to say Hyslop wrote against the Trinity, yet fail to show that the Trinity he was against was the Father, MOTHER, CHILD type of Trinity?
Brandon, who "purchased" Jesus? 2. From whom was Jesus "purchased?" 3. How much was paid to "purchase" Jesus? Brandon, you may want to rethink your statement above.
Help me understand the chronology: Jesus was set up as the sacrifice for salvation of man - before the Earth had been created. Then satan sinned and was cast to the Earth, along with 1/3 of all angels, to tempt the young couple in the Garden of Eden. Earth begins to feel like a test tube and mankind an experiment, I’m sad to say - sometimes. God is good, omnipotent, creator - where else would one go and survive? But it turns out it wasn’t that satan couldn’t stay in heaven and just had to be cast OUT. He was part of the experiment - cast specifically TO the Earth - to tempt. Man would fall and need salvation, which God had planned before any of this ever happened. Maybe it was just a safety measure - man could have chosen either way, and may not have failed, condemned to death. But God knows everything - so He knew, right? It blows my mind. Surely we’re not swimming around in a test tube? It’s not that I’m ungrateful - I try to understand the love and sacrifice of both the Father and the Son. And my experience has proven my faith over decades - God is good, and has saved me. But on a bad day, I wonder about this sequence of events. It was NOT circumstantial that satan was cast here - as if Earth had just coincidently just been created, and God needed a place to cast satan, and no other place was suitable for some reason, so it began the temptation by this deadly being, the sin, and the millennia of suffering and death. And the impending end time persecution such as the world has never seen. Salvation is not free - God suffered. But salvation is also not free to man - it is NOT just saying a sincere prayer and asking for forgiveness - it is about ENDURING until the end of this suffering by painful, humiliating death at the hands of this same satan and his deadly horde. I’m sorry. It sounds really bad. But are these not the facts? Is the sequence of events correct?
“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and WE SAW HIS GLORY, glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14, NASB) “NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME; the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath DECLARED HIM.” (John 1:18, KJV) “(Not that anyone has seen the Father except the ONE WHO IS FROM GOD - HE HAS SEEN THE FATHER.)” (John 6:46, NET) Clearly, no man on earth has seen the Only True God of John 17:3. Men and women have seen the Only Begotten Son Who was sent according to John 1:14,18; 3:16; John 17:3-8. To claim that the true God of John 1:18 are Three Beings, is also to deny John 1:18. A trinity god which included a Jesus Who men have seen, denies John 1:18 as being true since men have seen Jesus. Paul also taught that The Father was never seen: “He is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn over all creation,” (Colossians 1:15, NET) “Now unto the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Timothy 1:17, KJV) “which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and ONLY SOVEREIGN, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16. WHO ALONE possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom NO MAN HAS SEEN OR CAN SEE. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” (1 Timothy 6:15-16, NASB) “Anyone who goes too far and does NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10. If anyone comes to you and DOES NOT BRING THIS TEACHING, DO NOT RECEIVE HIM into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11. for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.” (2 John 9-11, NASB)
If we honor the Son, the honor doesnt stop at the son, but goes to the father. If you praise the son of someone, you praising his father. If the you honor and bow down to the prince, you are honoring the prince father, the King. John 5:23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. All the glory to Jesus, doesnt stop at Jesus but goes to our God and Father Phi 4: 19And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus. 20To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen. The God of Jesus, The Father of Jesus gave Jesus all power, and the Glory that Christ receiveth goes to the Father John 13:3 Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 1 Peter 3:22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand-with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him. Angels submit to the Son, who sit at God's right hand. Only two divine being sit together. All the host of heaven knows who they worship, all the earth will join all the heaven and, and they only worship 2 divine beings, no third being is worship by heaven and earth. Revelation 5:13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!” To Him (Singular), a singular God who sit on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor, glory and power for ever and ever. We worship, we pray, we give glory to God our Father thru and in His Son. the end will comw, and the Son will hand over the kingdom to God, His Father. 1 Corinthians 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. Yes the One true God movement worship Jesus as the The Son of God, as the Lord and savior, and we know when we do this, all glory and praise will go to the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Because His Father gave all power amd authority only to His only Son, He is to be worshipped Daniel 7:14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed The Father gave command to the angels to worship His Son. Hebrews 1:6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.” All the disciples worship Jesus on the basis of His Sonship, of the facts that Christ is the Son of God Matthew 14:33 Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
40:18 when you have a word in Spanish the day the time of day they're both masculine and feminine so wisdom in itself is attuned to as feminine. Do not get caught up in the gender of the idea Jesus is a woman or Michael as a woman because he is personified as wisdom... Which so happens to to be parsed as feminine
I wonder what the probleme is? Is it that some will make Jesus less then anything created? If He was borne before anything created was created (angels as well as man), and that way the expreced image of His Fader and the cocreater of all things as well as everybody - He is still before all and over all. Right? So, is there a probleme then that He had a beginning in comparison whith His Fader and even The Holy Spirit, loved as "the Only begotten Son"? I cannot see a probleme with that, rather a beautiful picture of how we were created in God's (the Godhead's) image, male and female! Said repeatedly in the creation story. Of coure not to be mixed with Mary or other godfigures in ancient times!!! We do not know it all yet, since it has not been revealed clearly, but thohughts that do not belittle or degrade Jesus I have no probleme with. Anyway, I appreciate your sermons very much, LYL ❤❤
The only problem here is that if Jesus had a begin, he is not "as God" as God is. He becomes a lesser God, which in turn leads to the idea that there is only "One true God" and Jesus is not that "One true God". Still a god, but not the "one true God." Thus he has been degraded from equality with God.
Following the concept of Father/Son....is your son any less a Myers than you are?....or any less an equal with any other human being? (And this is in our fallen human state) Why would God create man in His image with the ability to procreate if it were not for us to understand His great sacrifice in giving us His Only Begotten Son, not merely at Bethlehem but from eternal timelessness as the propitiation for sin and our salvation from it. There could not be a greater sacrifice.
Jesus explained very clear who is the Only True God in John 17:3 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD , and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. So we said this is a lie? Because they are 3 according to the Trinity Paul explained it in 1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER , of whom are all things, and we for Him; and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST , through whom are all things, and through whom we live. Is clear ONE TRUE GOD is The Father , Jesus is the Son of God which means that He have a beginning as Proverbs 8:22-30 explained and EG white agree to it!
@@powerofthelamb Does not the verse say “the only true God AND Jesus Christ” …………..it doesn’t say “the only true God Jesus Christ” ……. Jesus is Gods son & has the divine nature by inheritance….. you can have a son & that little baby will be no less human than you but you are obviously greater in that he came from you ……. he is definitely not the Father. Parents are greater than the children does that make the children less human? Of course not they are 100% equally human. So the idea that Jesus equality with the Father is destroyed or not recognized bc he is not in fact God in personality (the Father) is not sound. He is God by Nature & inheritance. Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. Btw I really appreciate your honest interactions with those who have different views than you.
Michael, pre-incarnate Son of God. Jesus, the incarnate Son of God. The Incarnate Jesus is talking about his beginnings as a man. It isn't the pre-incarnate Son of God talking about his beginning. He has no beginning. But Jesus has a beginning. Proverbs 8 is talking about the the divine origins of the man Jesus. Joseph was not the one who "begot" him is 4 BC. It was the heavenly Father who begot him in 4 bc. And this had been foretold from "eternity".
Curious, how does a Father/Son relationship exist if they both have no beginning from eternity? Can you help me understand this? Why would they refer to themselves as Father and Son if they really aren't vs using a different relationship?
Almighty God the Father just is, that's how one exists with no beginning. My question above was about your comment over the pre-incarnate Son, Michael, and how they are Father & Son without God becoming a Father after He has a Son vs Them being twins which would make more sense to my finite mind if they always existed together.
@@marjieismont3186 in the same breath accept that one can exist without having a beginning, apply this to Jesus too. The key is to remember that Jesus incarnate is the son of God. This is salvational truth.
The Bible indicates curse. is a man does not believe that Jesus is not God. God says wherever I curse, I curse Whatever. bless I bless. Do not walk in the council of Ungodly. Let the blind lead the blind.
The basis at the start is that Jesus did not have a beginning. What does John 5:26 state? "For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself." In the context, this is eternal life. So this eternal life was given to Him (the Son of God), and thus, it implies a beginning. John 1:1 has a beginning also. John could have started with, "From eternity was the Word, and the Word was with God....etc", but it doesn’t....it says there was a beginning. So the very foundation of this video is not correct.
The text could have also said, in the beginning the word was born. John 5:26 is referring to Jesus, not Micheal. Why do AT do so much reading into the text that which is not there.
John 5:26 is half of a sentence. If you read to the period which is at the end of verse 27 is becomes clear that this passage refers to the incarnation: John 5:26-27 (KJV) 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of MAN.
@powerofthelamb I don't understand what you are saying. I understand Michael to be a name of Jesus. I don't understand what has been read into the text, as the context is about eternal life.
@@chrischung2365 Reading before and after John 5:26-27 shows the context of that life is eternal life, not human life. Even in verse 26, the life first mentioned is not human life, but the eternal life.
Here’s a depiction of what’s going on here. Remember we are dealing with divine things here so this isn’t a perfect example. In place of Adam Let’s pretend that ivor was the first man created & had no mother & was not born. Ivor has a son who is born. Is Ivors son less human bc he was born instead of created by the hand of God? Ivor (Mr. myers) = 100% human Your son (Mr. myers)= 100% human Your son is NOT ivor!!!! Your son was born & not created by the hand of God Question: So is the son truly Mr. myers?? Here’s the difficulty….Because ivor was created by the hand of God in order for his son to be equally human he must also be created by the hand of God? …..WRONG….he is equally human even tho he is born from the womb. God has no beginning so the Son also must have no beginning or he is not God …..false line of reasoning….. obviously Christ has no beginning in the sense of if we continue to go back even to eternity in the past ….well here’s the thing God is above time you cannot measure him by going back in history …so you cannot measure Gods Son birth by time …… in fact the Son created time & the comprehension of it so how can we judge Him by our limited understanding…..He is above it. “Beginning” for God is infinitely beyond beginning for us.
@@jacobo9826 Yes, he is. Truly human. Only problem is that this is a human analogy. My son is not equal in authority to me. If I were to ask you if Jesus is the “true God,” what would you answer?
Woww the lord brought me here. My salvation was before the creation of the world not just at the cross
Thanks 🙏
We know of the apostasy of John Harvey Kellogg, the Alpha and Omega of Apostasy:
"He [Kellogg] told me that HE NOW BELIEVED IN GOD THE FATHER, GOD THE SON, and GOD THE HOLY GHOST;" {Letter by A. G. Daniells to W. C. White on October 29, 1903}
Thank you Pastor Myers. I see how you structured this study, breaking down the scriptures and using the SOP to magnify a point.
It was easy to follow and understand ! Thank you Pastor!
Powerful study brother!!! I appreciate how it is stated that the counsel of peace was brought forth in pain from the beginning. May God continue to bless through this ministry 🙏🏽
The cross is a revelation to our dull senses of the pain that, from its very inception, sin has brought to the heart of God.. Ed 263.1
SDA Statements which we hate to quote:
A well-known Adventist Trinitarian Jerry Moon who was a co-author of the book The Trinity wrote: “That most of the leading SDA pioneers were non-Trinitarian in their theology has become accepted Adventist history.”
He then goes on to say, “either the pioneers were wrong and the present church is right, or the pioneers were right and the present Seventh-day Adventist Church has apostatized from biblical truth.” - {Jerry Moon, The Trinity, Chapter, Trinity and antitrinitarianism in Seventh-day Adventist history, p. 190}
"While NO SINGLE SCRIPTURAL PASSAGE states formally the doctrine of the Trinity, IT IS ASSUMED AS A FACT by Bible writers and mentioned several times. ONLY BY FAITH CAN WE ACCEPT THE EXISTENCE OF THE TRINITY." {Adventist Review, Vol. 158, No. 31, p. 4.}
Indeed by faith we know that God IS and the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. The whole Bible is a book of faith. We never see God but we believe Him to be true which leads us to believe His word to be true.
They were anti trinitarians as as defined by the Catholic church. SDA definition and the Catholic definition are two separate things. Current so called SDA anti trinitarians actually preaches the Catholics definition of of the word trinity while using the term anti trinitarians.
@@claudette1313 the passage you just quoted is from Hebrews 11, and said nothing about taking a trinity by faith. But I understand why you would reason like that, its pretty common nowadays. In the past the Catholic church used scriptures out of context in order to support their killing of native americans, the theft of their land etc. They used passages in Deuteronomy. What you just did, is use Hebrews 11's passage to teach having faith in a trinity, which the Bible doesnt teach. I understand. Mark Twain said that its easier to fool someone than to convince someone that they have been fooled.
@@claudette1313 which trinity do you believe in?
Many christians also do not agree upon which version of the Trinity they believe:
In general, there are three main categories of how trinity or triunity is understood:
1. Consubstantial trinity - This version of trinity is characterized as a single divine “Being,” comprised of three “Persons”, sharing one indivisible (undivided) substance (Catholic/Orthodox trinity and many theologian class of SDA Church who are heavily influenced by evangelical authors would fall under this category ). (“One Being” = “3 Persons”; “Being” and “Person” is distinguished)
2. Modalistic trinity - This version of trinity is comprised of three modes or roles occupied by single divine individual wherein one God is manifesting or revealing himself in three different ways, without distinct and coexisting persons in the divine nature. (i.e. Father is Jesus, Father is the Holy Spirit, etc.; same person operating in 3 different modes)
3. Tritheistic trinity - The "trinity" is comprised of three distinct divine “persons” but they understand “persons” as individual Beings; who all have same power, same nature, purpose, etc. Because they are in agreement in everything they do, they are said to be “one God,” not that all three make up a single Being (Majority of Seventh-day Adventist trinitarians would fall under this category).
@kylontobias Well consider me an Adventist trinitarian
What's odd is that the SDA church says it agrees with the Nicene Creed of 325AD, which clearly states that Jesus is begotten from eternity:
"We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made..."
Please note that this creed was slightly amplified at Constantinople in 381 A.D. Nicene Creed quoted in Philip Schaff, The Creeds of Christendom, Sixth edition, revised and enlarged, Volume I, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House, 1977, pp.28,29.
EW uses this passage from Pro 8:22 to show the son. Calling it wisdom is fine because God and son are also referred to as wisdom. It’s clear that Ivor just wants to dance around it.
Praise God for His plan of redemption!
Pr Myers,
If we look at Pr 8, it's talking about wisdom. Wisdom originates from the Father, it's not something that exists by itself...it has a place of origin. This also applies our saviour, Jesus. Christ never existed by himself, he had a place of origin... His father. We live in a age that now questions this, just like Lucifer did in heaven. This knowledge is brought to us through the writings of sister White and the pioneers, and we can safely conclude this because we are both SDA's.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" John 15:13
That's the mystery of Godliness - God died for us.
We find this question in the Catholic Catechism, “What is Sunday...” Their answer is that SUNDAY “is a day dedicated by the Apostles to the HONOR OF THE MOST HOLY TRINITY.” - (RH, vol. 5, no. 24, p. 86)
You have much theory but no Truth. "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." 2 Timothy 3:7.
If you would argue less and listen more, you would understand much. The presentation here was clear and succinct. Christ IS GOD, from eternity past to eternity future. The same yesterday today and forever.
Don't overcomplicate things.
@@moseskamau4989 “NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME; the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath DECLARED HIM.” (John 1:18, KJV)
Did anybody on earth see Jesus?
“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and WE SAW HIS GLORY, glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14, NASB)
If you are saying that Christ is the God Who man never saw, then you have rejected John 1:18 as being false. Clearly, no man on earth has seen the Only True God of John 17:3. Men and women have seen the Only Begotten Son Who was sent according to John 1:14,18; 3:16; John 17:3-8.
Like John, Paul also taught that God could not be seen nor approached by earthly human beings:
“WHO ALONE possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom NO MAN HAS SEEN OR CAN SEE. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” (1 Timothy 6:16, NASB)
“Now unto the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Timothy 1:17, KJV)
If any man teach otherwise, we are commanded to reject their message:
“Anyone who goes too far and does NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10. If anyone comes to you and DOES NOT BRING THIS TEACHING, DO NOT RECEIVE HIM into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11. for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.” (2 John 9-11, NASB)
@@moseskamau4989 Ellen White was Non-Trinitarian. She believed that teachings which destroyed the personality of God and His Son were doctrinal delusions:
“The Scriptures clearly indicate the relation between God and Christ, and they bring to view as clearly the PERSONALITY and INDIVIDUALITY of each… GOD IS THE FATHER OF CHRIST; CHRIST IS THE SON OF GOD. To Christ has been GIVEN AN EXALTED POSITION. He has been MADE EQUAL with the Father. All the counsels of God are opened to His Son.”
{Ellen White, Testimonies for the Church, volume 8, page 268, paragraph 1}
“Wonderful statement! The UNITY that exists between CHRIST and HIS DISCIPLES does NOT DESTROY the PERSONALITY OF EITHER. They are ONE IN PURPOSE, in mind, in character, but NOT IN PERSON. It is thus that GOD and CHRIST are one.”
{Ellen White, Testimonies for the Church, volume 8, page 269, paragraph 4}
“The relation between the FATHER and the SON, and the PERSONALITY OF BOTH, are made plain in this scripture also:”
“Thus speaketh Jehovah of hosts, saying,
Behold, the man whose name is the Branch:
And He shall grow up out of His place;
And He shall build the temple of Jehovah;...
And He shall bear the glory,
And shall sit and rule upon His throne;
And He shall be a priest upon His throne;
And the counsel of peace shall be between Them both.” Zechariah 6:12, 13, A. R. V.
{Ellen White, Testimonies for the Church, volume 8, page 269, paragraph 5&6}
"The oneness existing between the Father and the Son does not affect the DISTINCT PERSONALITY OF EACH." {14MR 220.4}
"The Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of the Father, is TRULY GOD in INFINITY, but NOT IN PERSONALITY." {UL 367.4}
"Christ is one with the Father, but God and Christ are TWO DISTINCT PERSONAGES." {UL 153.3}
“Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. THERE ARE THE TWO PERSONALITIES, but GOD AND CHRIST are one in perfection of character.” (Ms116-1905.15)
*“He who denies the PERSONALITY OF GOD AND OF HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, is denying GOD and CHRIST.* If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the PERSONALITY of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with Him in love.”
{E.G. White; Review & Herald, March 8, 1906, paragraph 19}
“Those who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast; they are not remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the PILLARS OF OUR FAITH CONCERNING the SANCTUARY or concerning the PERSONALITY OF GOD or OF CHRIST, are working as blind men. They are seeking to bring in UNCERTAINTIES and to set the people of God adrift without an anchor.”
{E. G. White, Manuscript Release No.760, p. 9} 1905
"Living Temple" contains the alpha of these theories. I knew that the omega would follow in a little while; and I trembled for our people. I knew that I must warn our brethren and sisters not to enter into controversy over the presence and PERSONALITY OF GOD. The statements made in "Living Temple" in regard to this point are incorrect. The scripture used to substantiate the doctrine there set forth, is scripture misapplied.” SpTB02 53.2
“The spiritualistic theories regarding the PERSONALITY OF GOD, followed to their logical conclusion, sweep away the whole Christian economy. They estimate as nothing the light that Christ came from heaven to give John to give to His people.” SpTB02 54.1
And which doctrine denies the *"PERSONALITY" OF GOD* and HIS SON which is denying God and Christ? SDA Pioneer Ellen White's husband explains:
“Here we might mention *“the TRINITY,” which does away the PERSONALITY of GOD, and of HIS SON JESUS CHRIST,* and of sprinkling or pouring instead of being ‘buried with Christ in baptism,’ ‘planted in the likeness of his death’: but we pass from these fables to notice one that is held sacred by nearly all professed Christians, both Catholic and Protestant.”
{James White, RH, p. 85, 1855}
SDA Pioneer J.N. Andrews wrote:
*“The doctrine of the TRINITY which was established in the church by the council of Nice, a. d. 325. This doctrine DESTROYS the PERSONALITY OF GOD, and HIS SON JESUS CHRIST our Lord.* The infamous measures by which it was forced upon the church, which appear upon the pages of ecclesiastical history might well cause every believer in that doctrine to blush.”
“If the church had not intoxicated the world with the WINE of her false doctrines, the plain truths of the Bible would powerfully move the public mind. But the world seems hopelessly DRUNKEN with the WINE OF BABYLON.” TAR 54.1 - TAR 56.3
{An excerpt from J. N. Andrews in his book, the "Three Angel's of Revelation 14:6-12”, pages 54.1 - 56.3}
@@moseskamau4989 what is truth?
@@kylontobiasGods word the Bible studied correctly, rightly dividing the word of truth, staying consistent with the actual narrative of the entire Bible. Not hand selecting one or two verses for doctrinal establishment while contradicting the dozens of others. This study was clear concise and was a home run.
Powerful!
1Co 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
How can Proverbs 8 refer the "incarnate son of God" if it was "from eternity...before the hills". And if it was just Christ begotten of Mary as a man, this implies God didn't really give His only begotten Son, but rather they(not he) gave their second person, and they had to come up with a plan, and they had to take roles since they were co-equal, co-eternal, and ultimately the Father is not really a Father, but he only faked, acted, or pretended to be the Father of a co-eternal brother.
And the Father didn't take the role of the Father UNTIL Christ was brought forth ( not before the hills, not from the days of eternity) but rather from Mary.
Proverbs 8 refers to Christ "from the beginning" "In the beginning was the word", furthermore he is "the only begotten" as one "brought up with him", it is a real Father/Son relationship, and Father gave everything to Christ, He didn't just role play a Father. And by giving Christ to us, our Father gave everything to us. And it wasn't "you take the role". Christ went unto the Father and begged Him, and it was a hard thing for Father to let His Son go.
“Angels were expelled from heaven ... This fact the [fallen] angels would obscure, that Christ was the only begotten Son of God...” { EGWhite TDG 128.2}
Be Careful. Blessings, David.
All of this is human reasoning. Did we not demonstrate the wisdom is the personification of "Jesus"? Jesus is speaking to the "sons of men". Is this not enough to show that the person speaking is one who is addressing humans. The question you ask, is like asking how can the lamb of God have existed back before the foundation of the world if he wasn't born till in the days of Rome. You are repeating talking points of what you learned from AT and not allowing the Bible to interpret itself. Present you text, not an Ellen White quote as your evidence. This is where we need to be careful.
@@powerofthelamb Proverbs 8:22-30 is talking about Christ "as one brought up with him." As far as having his delights with the sons of men. This was certainly something he created, and furthermore came down to save. This certainly does not imply that he was not begotten before the world was or that he was not brought up by the Father and given everything and taught everything before the world was. There was a Father/Son relationship before the world was. This is what made it a hard thing for the Father to give His Son to the world.
Micah 5:2 tells us about the birth of Christ, not just in Bethlehem, but also in heaven. "Whose goings forth are from the days of eternity." The Hebrew term for "Goings forth" is "origin" or "family descent". The word "Origin" implies his "beginning".
"whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”" NIV
"one whose origins[d] are in the distant past.[e]" (NET)
"whose origin is from of old, from ancient days." NRSV
"whose origins are in the distant past, will come from you on my behalf." NLV
“Goings Forth”
מוֹצָאָה
môtsâ'âh
mo-tsaw-aw'
Feminine of H4161; a family descent; also a sewer (compare H6675): - draught house; going forth.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
In other words he was "Brought forth...set up from everlasting" (Prov 8:22-25) Or Begotten. The word Begotten is the Greek Monogenes. The word Genes is Greek from the word Genesis, or Genetic. Genesis means Beginning. Christ is the MONOGENES son, in other words "In the beginning was the word" and he tells us " I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning... I was brought forth, before the mountains...".
And so you know EGWhite and EJ Waggoner and several others use these 2 passages, Micah 5:2, and Proverbs 8:22-30 in connection with one another to refer to the birth of Christ before creation. So there you have your text, unless you deny the word "goings forth" to imply his "origin, beginning, family descent, or birth". Blessings, David.
@@thirdangelsmessage1669 Well said.
Amen.
Jesus Christ is God and he deserves all our praise. Jesus Christ is God and deserves all our worship.
The SDA Non Trinitarian movement does not deny the divinity of Christ. He is fully God as His Father, because He brought forth from His Father bossom. Its the same principle with Adam and Eve. Eve is fully human thou she came out from Adam, Adam is the source and He is older, no christian will say that Eve is not a human or a lesser human because she litterally came from Adam. Same principle when Mary brought forth baby Jesus. jesus is fully human, because the fact of He came out from a human. Nobody will say that Jesus is a lesser human than Mary.
The SDA non trinitarian do worship Christ
Here is the principle :
If we honor the Son, the honor doesnt stop at the son, but goes to the father. If you praise the son of someone, you praising his father. If the you honor and bow down to the prince, you are honoring the prince father, the King.
John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
All the glory to Jesus, doesnt stop at Jesus but goes to our God and Father
Phi 4: 19And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.
20To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The God of Jesus, The Father of Jesus gave Jesus all power, and the Glory that Christ receiveth goes to the Father
John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand-with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Angels submit to the Son, who sit at God's right hand. Only two divine being sit together.
All the host of heaven knows who they worship, all the earth will join all the heaven and, and they only worship 2 divine beings, no third being is worship by heaven and earth.
Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
To Him (Singular), a singular God who sit on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor, glory and power for ever and ever.
We worship, we pray, we give glory to God our Father thru and in His Son.
the end will comw, and the Son will hand over the kingdom to God, His Father.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
Yes the One true God movement worship Jesus as the The Son of God, as the Lord and savior, and we know when we do this, all glory and praise will go to the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Because His Father gave all power amd authority only to His only Son, He is to be worshipped
Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed
The Father gave command to the angels to worship His Son.
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
All the disciples worship Jesus on the basis of His Sonship, of the facts that Christ is the Son of God
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
@@tanyajawabalkitab6414 Glad you believe Jesus Christ is God and deserves all our worship and praise. Amen 🙏
We love, praise and worship you Father
We love, praise and worship you Holy Spirit
We love, praise and worship you Jesus Christ
@@elenaruiz73 there is not a single verse in the bible to worship what the trinitarian called God the holy spirit. we need to pray IN spirit, not TO God the holy spirit. we demand the written word of God. It is written, not asumption.
@@tanyajawabalkitab6414 Isaiah 63:10-11 Psalms 51:11 , Daniel 4:8 and 18 , Luke 4:1, 1 Thessalonians 4:8…. All these scriptures point to the Holy Spirit as being a part of God. The Holy Spirit is given by God because it is a part of himself. May God’s grace impart upon you discernment through his Holy Spirit.
Personally, I will respectfully not engage you further. Peace
@@elenaruiz73 respectfully those verses are not telling us to worship what the trinitarian called god the holy spirit. plain and simple.
blessing, honor, and glory, and power to HIM (God the Father) that sits on the throne and to the lamb (The Son).
plain and simple. all praise and worship of heaven and earth only to the Father and to His Son
Rev 4: 13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be to him that sits on the throne, and to the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen.
the four beast said AMEN. no more being to be included in their adoration.
14.... And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that lives for ever and ever
the 24 elders fell down and worshipped HIM. who is the HIM, a singular being, the Father.
we worship the Father, we pray to the Father thru His Son. Christ is the way, the only way to go to the father.
plain and simple, all base in a written scriptures. no asumption and fantasy.
1Co 1:3 KJV Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Wow....mind blowing study❤❤
Your prophet Ellen White said:
*“He who denies the personality of God and of His Son Jesus Christ, is denying God and Christ.* If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the
Son, and in the Father. If you continue to believe and obey the truths you first embraced regarding the personality of the Father and the Son, you will be joined together with Him in love.” (E.G. White; RH, par. 19, 1906)
And which doctrine denies the *"personality" of God* and His Son which is denying God and Christ? Ellen White's husband explains:
“Here we might mention *“the TRINITY,” which does away the personality of God, and of His Son Jesus Christ,* and of sprinkling or pouring instead of being
‘buried with Christ in baptism,’ ‘planted in the likeness of his death’: but we pass from these fables to notice one that is held sacred by nearly all professed Christians, both Catholic and Protestant.” (James White, RH, p. 85, 1855)
You cannot help but quote Elian white in absence of scripture that supports your position. Let me ask again. Is Jesus “truly” God?
@@powerofthelamb it seems like you always hate ellen white statements when it says something different to your claims. Why do you hate her statements when she is your prophet?
@@powerofthelamb “I have said, Ye are GODS (elohim); and all of you are children of the most High. 7. But ye shall DIE LIKE MEN, and fall like one of the princes.” (Psalms 82:6-7, KJV)
Were these humans truly elohim?
“And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a GOD (elohim) to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.” (Exodus 7:1, KJV)
Was Moses truly elohim?
As usual, I was deeply blessed by your study, especially of this topic. Thank you for sharing these beautiful insights into the amazing love of God. My husband is an anti-trinitarian. I can’t express the division this has created in our home and marriage. I had to stop talking about it with him because it always ended so badly. The vitriol against the church, the anger and the nonsensical reasoning is of a nature I cannot describe. It’s difficult to know how to move forward. But I believe prayer will provide the answer one day. God bless you and your family Pastor. You are truly a man of God. 😊
I know exactly what you're going through sister, I'm a Seventh day Adventist, but my husband is completely opposed, when I try and talk about the truths and Jesus soon return, it always ends in fighting, it breaks my heart so badly! But I stand true to God's Word, and the Message of the 3 Angels, I pray that God gives you and me grace to know how to speak to our husbands, and just remember God's grace is sufficient for you! Blessings to you, and just pray for your family because God will save them!! 🙌🏻❤️🙏🏻
@@ShellyManning1984 Thank you Shelly. I pray God blesses you and yours as well. I know there are many people in similar situations. Let’s just focus on Jesus and remain faithful. ✝️
Amen!!
Question How is Jesus the Son and God is the Father ?
Keep him in prayer sister. I too reject the Trinity doctrine and a lot of us went through a hard time because the local churches labelled us as heretics and turned out friends away from us... Calling us names and saying things to others what we believe when it wasn't true. It was one way of keeping others in darkness to the the infiltration of apostasy that our church has accepted from Babylon... The Trinity. 15 years I stood alone here in New Zealand, but today many stand with me on this beautiful truth of Father and Son. What the message did was that it truely changed my heart because of God's love.
Can a spirit bleed….? Oh what manner of Love is this? You put on flesh… Oh the Long suffering… of infinite wisdom who can comprehend it?! Thank you Jesus! God you are infinite, that means you are outside of… yet within our reality, omnipresent… pleading with the Father my Blood! my Blood! Is sufficient. Before you sin I choose you! Hallelujah! Thank you Jesus!
@Ivor Myers have you read Patriarch and Prophets chapter 1? It is very clear how the inspired word explains who is Proverbs 8:22-30 talking about.
I am not sure why ATs who watch this don’t see that I’ve actually said that wisdom is Jesus in Proverbs 8. Are you so used to hearing that argument that you miss when someone clearly points out in the first like 15 minutes of the video that Wisdom is Jesus personified? Also, do we need SOP to verify this? Doesn’t the Bible do so on its own? Why can’t we stick to meeting the challenge based on the Bible only. ATs do not appear to be able to prove their position solely from the Bible.
The word of God is clear . He have a Son to have according to John 3:16. No matter how many will try to change or interpret the Father was loud to said This is my Begotten Son. Sadly as the Jews time the kept the sabbath but rejected the Son of God.
How a Son is same age like the Father? If it is so then The Father and the Son are liars and that exactly what the Trinity said. Hope and praying very soon many Adventist open their eyes of what God said and not to men.
“When the power of God testifies as to what is truth, that truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after suppositions contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise, and still another, with new light, which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat, and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard-bearers who have fallen in death are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus their voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time Christ in His Sanctuary 19.1
Isaiah 43:10 Ye [are] my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I [am] he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. 11 I, [even] I, [am] the LORD; and beside me [there is] no saviour.
The problem today is that many trust in church fundamental beliefs, church creeds, church pastors, and church prophets more than a PLAIN THUS SAITH THE LORD. The following statements I agree with 100%:
"But God will have a people upon the earth to MAINTAIN THE BIBLE, AND THE BIBLE ONLY, as the STANDARD of all doctrines and the basis of all reforms. The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the CREEDS or DECISIONS of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the VOICE OF THE MAJORITY-NOT ONE NOR ALL of these SHOULD BE REGARDED AS EVIDENCE FOR OR AGAINST any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should DEMAND A PLAIN “THUS SAITH THE LORD” in its support." {Great Controversy, 595.1}
"SATAN IS CONSTANTLY endeavoring to attract attention to MAN IN the PLACE OF GOD. He leads the people to look to BISHOPS, to PASTORS, to PROFESSORS OF THEOLOGY, AS THEIR GUIDES, INSTEAD OF SEARCHING THE SCRIPTURES to learn their duty FOR THEMSELVES. Then, by controlling the minds of these leaders, he can influence the multitudes according to his will." {Great Controversy, 595.2}
“There is a sad neglect of reading the Bible and searching it with humble hearts for yourselves. TAKE NO MAN'S EXPLANATION OF SCRIPTURE, whatever his position, but go to the Bible and SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH YOURSELVES. After hearing Jesus, the Samaritans said, “Now we believe, NOT because of THY SAYING: for we have heard Him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.” There is the mine of truth. Sink the shaft deep, and you will possess that knowledge which is of highest value to you. Many have become lazy and criminally neglectful in regard to the searching of the Scriptures, and they are as destitute of the Spirit of God as of the knowledge of His word.” TM 155.1
“There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.” CW 35.2
“We are living in perilous times, and it does not become us to accept everything claimed to be truth without examining it thoroughly; neither can we afford to reject anything that bears the fruits of the Spirit of God; but we should be teachable, meek and lowly of heart. There are those who oppose everything that is not in accordance with their own ideas, and by so doing they endanger their eternal interest as verily as did the Jewish nation in their rejection of Christ.” CW 35.3
“The Lord DESIGNS that our opinions shall be put to the test, that we may see the necessity of closely examining the living oracles to see whether or not we are in the faith. Many who claim to believe the truth have settled down at their ease, saying, “I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing.”-The Review and Herald, December 20, 1892. CW 36.1
“The language of the Bible should be EXPLAINED ACCORDING TO ITS OBVIOUS MEANING, UNLESS A SYMBOL OR FIGURE IS EMPLOYED. Christ has given the promise: “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine.” John 7:17. If men would but take the BIBLE AS IT READS, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error.” GC 598.3
“While every ingenious inquirer is to search out the truth as it is in Jesus, there are things not yet simplified, statements that human minds cannot grasp and reason out, without being liable to make HUMAN CALCULATION AND EXPLANATIONS, which will not prove a savor of life unto life.” CW 48.3
“But every truth which is essential for us to bring into our practical life, which concerns the salvation of the soul, is made very clear and positive.”-Preach the Word, 6, 7 (1895). CW 49.1
“We are to GIVE THEM THE WORD OF GOD JUST AS IT IS, with AS FEW OF OUR OWN EXPLANATIONS as possible. No one mind can do this work alone. Although we have in trust the grandest and most important truth ever presented to the world, we are only babes, as far as understanding truth in all its bearings is concerned. Christ is the great teacher, and that which He revealed to John, we are to tax our minds to understand and clearly to define. We are facing the most important issues that men have ever been called upon to meet.” CW 29.2
“The minister of Christ should be a Bible student, that his mind may be stored with Bible evidence; for a minister is strong only when he is fortified with Scripture truth. Argument is good in its place, but far more can be reached by SIMPLE EXPLANATIONS of the WORD OF GOD. The lessons of Christ were illustrated so clearly that the lowest and most simple-minded could readily comprehend them. Jesus did not employ long and difficult words in his discourses, but used PLAIN LANGUAGE, adapted to the minds of the common people. He ventured no further into the subject he was expounding than they were able to follow him.” GW92 70.3
While at the same time:
"You are not familiar with the Scriptures. If you had made God's word your study, with a desire to reach the Bible standard and attain to Christian perfection, YOU WOULD NOT HAVE NEEDED THE TESTIMONIES." 5T 664.3
How bad this must look to onlookers who think SDA's base their teachings on the Ellen White instead of the Bible. In all of this, not a verse used to defend your position but multiple quotes about how we should use the Bible. Then..no bible is presented.
@@powerofthelamb
This was sent to you who believeand have used the writings of Ellen White. My aim was to use language that you should be familiar with so that you and some of your audience can be encouraged to study the bible more than before. You are seeing the Ellen White quotations, while God knows that the motive of me posting those statements were to promote the fact that our doctrines should come from the Bible only, without the use of Ellen White, pastors, bible teachers, bible commetaries or church fundamental beliefs. What is sad is that many will see that you did not read my post to see the main message, but instead to judged me as just posting Ellen White, while I am not even her biggest fan. I am also not your critic nor your enemy. I aim to raise real concerns about unbiblical teachings. Here are some scriptures which I suspect you will refuse to respond to:
The personality of the Father also existed before the personality of the Son, But their divinity is the same eternal substance.
“26. Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27. God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.” (Genesis 1:26-27, NASB)
Some people imagine that because Genesis 1:26,27 says that God said "Let Us" that it meant that God is a comprised of 3 Persons as the "Us" and that all 3 were speaking at the same time as the "Us." However when we look at Who gave the commands elsewhere in scripture, we see a pattern of the Father speaking to His Son. For example: Psalm 110:1,4. And according to Proverbs 30:4, it was the Father and His Son who created the heavens and the earth. Hebrews 1:2,10, shows that it was the hands of God's Son which laid the foundation of the earth. Colossians 1:16 says, "..by Him were all things created." Therefore it is not hard to conceive that The Father spoke to His Son saying, "Let Us make man in Our Image." As seen in Proverbs 30:4, we see 2 divine Beings. And therefore Genesis 1:26,27 showed 2 human beings created in the image of God.
Having seen from the Bible first that principle, lets see what Ellen White had to say:
*“The FATHER and the SON* engaged in the mighty, wondrous work they had contemplated of creating the world.” (SR 20.1)
“After the earth was created, and the beasts upon it, the *FATHER and SON carried out THEIR purpose, which was designed before the fall of Satan, to make man in THEIR OWN IMAGE.* They had wrought together in the creation of the earth and every living thing upon it. And now *GOD SAID TO HIS SON, "LET US make man in OUR IMAGE."* (SR 20.2)
Consider Adam and Eve:
“21. So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took *one of HIS RIBS* and closed up the flesh at that place. 22. The *Lord God fashioned into a woman the RIB which He had taken FROM THE MAN,* and brought her to the man. 23. The man said, “This is now bone of my bones, And flesh of my flesh; She shall be called Woman, Because she was taken out of Man.”” (Genesis 2:21-23, NASB)
The rib substance 🦴 🩻 of Adam existed before Eve's Personality. That Adam aged Rib, which was now in Eve, was older than Eve's personality. The bones in Eve were Adam's, and therefore Adam's bone in her was as old as Adam's bones yet older than Eve's personality. But Adam's personality is elder and existed longer than Eve's personality. The bones in Eve existed before her personality. This was simply an imperfect representation for us to understand the Father and the Son. It is imperfect because the FATHER DID NOT CREATE THE SON AS EVE WAS CREATED. THE SON CAME OUT OF THE FATHER but was NOT created. He was born from the Father. Jesus' divinity is AS ETERNAL AS THE FATHER. But Jesus' Individual Personality and Authority is not as eternal as His Father's. Jesus' Personality had a beginning long before earthly time.
“But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the MAN IS the HEAD of a WOMAN, and GOD is the HEAD of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:3, NASB)
As Adam was the head of Eve. God IS the HEAD of Jesus. And Jesus is the head of the man.
In the following, we see Two Divine Beings, but the Only True God is the Head Who sends Christ on His mission to do as He saw His Head do:
“Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5:19, NASB)
In the following we also see that as Jesus' Head sent Him on His mission, so Christ, as the Head of His disciples and of His church, sends them and we can be a part of His disciples if we believe that He is indeed the Son of God. We can be sure that He did not send us to say that "He is the God Who sent Himself" because He does not want us to send ourselves with our own made up messages:
“21. So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; AS the FATHER has SENT ME, I ALSO SEND YOU.” 22. And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:21-22, NASB)
He breathes upon us the soul of His own life in giving us His Spirit. Jesus is not the Only True God of John 17:3. That doesn't demote Him. It uplifts Him because it is to teach what He taught.
Thank you Jesus
John, 17 came into question about who was above whom and I stated that john 17 is an intimate conversation between the Father and the Son and for us to understand that salvation was being worked out on our behalf and we should just listen in and understand that they "got this!"
1🎉❤Gòd bless you Pastor ❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Preach!!!!!!!!!!
*Was Christ ever begotten or not?*
W. W. Prescott presented a series of eight devotionals for the 1919 Bible Conference
titled “The Person of Christ.” While affirming the eternity of the Son, he also said that He derived his existence from the Father. He said:
-- "There is a proper sense, as I view it, according to which the Son is subordinate to the Father, but that subordination is not in the question of attributes or His existence. It is simply in the fact of the derived existence, as we read in John 5:26: “For as the Father hath life in himself, even so, gave he to the Son also to have life in himself. ”Using terms as we use them, the Son is co-eternal with the father. That does not prevent His being the only-begotten Son of God."
Prescott found himself in an awkward position.
1. Those arguing against the eternity of Christ wondered how Christ could be “begotten” and “co-eternal” with the Father.
-------------- vs -----------
2. Others who agreed with Prescott on Christ’s eternity wondered about his use of the word “derived.
Finally, at the end of the discussion, Prescott borrowed an idea shared at the conference by H. C. Lacey with the following summary statement regarding Christ:
-- “One with the Father, one in authority, power, love, mercy, and all the attributes-equal with him and yet second in nature. I like the word ‘second’ better than ‘inferior,’ -second in rank.
Is this where we are again?
*SOURCE:*
-- 1919 Bible Conference transcript, July 2, 1919, afternoon discussions, 20.
EGW says, "In him 'Christ' is life that is original, unborrowed, underived." R & H Aug.6, 1914. Why would you go to W.W. Prescott?
@@watchndatube1 "Why would you go to W.W. Prescott?" Answer: Historical context.
History repeating
Since this, I’ve read Eph 1:4 4 "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.” The timing of the foundation of the world applies to us also! And from the book In These Last Days 10 2022 Bible BookShelf: The Message of Hebrews: Ch 3: "Today, I Have Begotten You: When did Jesus become the only begotten son? At the ascension when he was seated at the right hand of God as the Ruler of the World…"
Option 2 sounds like eternal, selfless love!
Powerful Teaching Brother Ivor. The Message and the amplifying Power of the Microphone is enough to reach every humble ear. Maybe God is trying to show you, that although you are euphoric and ob fire for him, you should not 'gas out' your voice. Besides your brain it is your Working Tool and you should treat it with gentle Care. The Lord and your Listeners need you for many more years, so maybe you can consider working on your Preaching volume. God bless you my Brother.
Hallelujah hallelujah hallelujah amen
“IN SCRIPTURE THERE IS AS YET NO SINGLE TERM BY WHICH THE THREE DIVINE PERSONS ARE DENOTED TOGETHER....The Vatican Council has explained the meaning to be attributed to the term ‘mystery’ in theology. It lays down that a mystery is a truth which we are not merely incapable of discovering apart from Divine Revelation, but which, even when revealed, remains ‘hidden by the veil of faith and enveloped, so to speak, by a kind of darkness.’” {Const., "De fide. cath.", iv). (Joyce G.H. The Blessed Trinity. The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XV Copyright © 1912 by Robert Appleton Company Online Edition Copyright © 2003 by K. Knight}
Everything but the Bible.
@@powerofthelamb 🤣 because you are yet to quote a scripture where Jesus clearly says that the Only True God is a combination of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Please post the scriptures which says that in context of God teaching the Singleness of God.
@@kylontobias I have not presented that challenge. The burden isn’t on me at this point. I’m just asking you if Jesus is “truly” God. Not sure why I’m not getting an answer.
@@powerofthelamb whether its your challenge, or not, whether its your burden or not, we both KNOW that there is not evident contextual teaching that God is a trinity in the gospels. And that is a fact. One has to cherry pick, prooftext and ask philosophical questions.
@@kylontobias I understand why you won’t answer. I hope and think you understand too.
I think this is a more accurate explanation of Proverbs 8. I don't know if anything else makes sense.
Most non trinitarians love MC Wilcox. Yet Wilcox agrees w Pastor Myers:
MC Wilcox on the futility of attempting to ascertain as to whether the Son has a beginning or is eternal: "It would clearly seem that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have existed to eternity. This is a question that is utterly and absolutely incomprehensible by man. "Who by searching can find out God?" Of the Son it is said, in predicting His coming in the flesh, "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5: 2. The margin reads, "the days of eternity." In the first chapter of John we read: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made 24 Questions and Answers that was made." Verses 1-3. Certainly no mortal or finite mind can comprehend what lies beyond that period."
@@rescuebabybirds provide evidence from inspiration that there was a time when time did not exist please. Eternity is comprised of unending time in the past, so to claim that there was a time when time did not exist is to claim that there was a time when eternity did not exist, no?
Did you love your father prior to your existence? If no, then there is an eternity of time prior to your existence that you did not love your father as you did not exist.
Chris, is it more correct to say Pastor Myers agrees with M. C. Wilcox "on the futility of attempting to ascertain as to whether the Son has a beginning or is eternal?"
@@cmc8176 To say the least, I find it interesting that this man whom non trinitarians revere was unable to say with certainty as to whether the Son has a beginning or is eternal. Ellen White is quite clear nevertheless as to whether Jesus is eternal or not:
The Word existed as a divine being, even as the ETERNAL Son of God, in union and oneness with His Father. From everlasting He was the Mediator of the covenant, the one in whom all nations of the earth, both Jews and Gentiles, if they accepted Him, were to be blessed. “The Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Before men or angels were created, the Word was with God, and was God.-The Review and Herald, April 5, 1906.
@@rescuebabybirds please provide INSPIRATION to prove that there was a time when time did not exist. If this is true then eternity past clearly had a beginning as YOU SEE IT, as eternity is comprised of time.
@@rescuebabybirds you keep citing your opinion. Have you no inspired statements that I can fact check your opinion with?
Amen and Amen
Dear Ivor, why cannot the two options you put against each other go together?
To let Your (God's) litteral Son be the One to Redeem fallen (if be) angels as well as man, is enormus!!!.
And to let Jesus, already before anything / one was created, be that surety shows a Godhead with a united love that make none of them less then any other of them.
To begett a child is not the same as to create. The child comes from both his/her father and his/her mother and are the same "substanse" as the parents.
In other words - Jesus is as much Gud as the Father, in that respect!
If it is less to say that Jesus / Michael /The Only Begotten Son of the Father is litteraly begotten, I do not understand how such a thought can occur!
But to say that that is the biggest thing to be born (looking at Jesus), is surely to missunderstand the whole plan of salvation!
That the Godhead unitedly agreed, before sin ever entered, that the Son will be our "Sacrificial Lamb" is " the mistery of tru love, from the whole Godhead, I belive. Agreed on before the fondation of the world, and even worlds. That's how I understand it - and it is mindbogglins as a parent!
That makes Jesus as big / loving as the Father.
Sr. White writes somewhere that it was Jesus' suggestion that He would be our Sacriface and that the Father struggeled to let that be, , but because of His own (the Fathers) love for us, He Ageed!
I hope you can see my piont and that it will not disturbe you unnesseserely!
Greetings from an old lady, from Sweden
I dont have a problem with the two positions meeting if we can agree that Jesus has always existed. Once we say there was a time he did not exist, it doesn’t matter how we say he came into existence (begotten vs. created). Both only that at one time did not exist and thus cannot be God, one cannot become God is any “sense” of the word. When we say Jesus is God in a particular “sense” we are saying he is not actually equal with God.
To be described as the word shows that Jesus was the principal carrier of meaning. Meaning actually means to be pregnant 😅 which is also to understand wisdom, and wisdom is the ability to conceive ideas and carry it through and so being referenced to as ‘she’ is demonstrated in the creation of Eve who represented the physical embodiment of God’s mind. She, the woman becomes impregnated and holds/carries each ‘conception’ likewise the body of Christ, His bride is told to have the mind of Jesus.
As someone who was on the otherside of the Proverbs 8 question im inclined to believe this is refering to the incarnation of Jesus in light of Psalm 2.
Despite the actual text speaking as clear as day, that this incarnate Christ was “brought forth” “before the earth ever was”. It’s so clear yet it goes right over your head. Of COURSE the focus is on the incarnate Christ! But what is the basis of the beauty CONCERNING the incarnate Christ? That He is the Divine eternal Son of God that was BROUGHT FORTH “before the hills”, or “ever the earth was”. From everlasting. It’s so clear anyone who wants to do what is right and has spiritual eyesalve, will see it. It’s flashing back to the eternal divine origins of this incarnate Son. It blows my mind how Ivor cannot see it.
My brother! Praise God! Please continue to allow the Scripture to speak. When you approach it this way, you will also see the truth shine through in the writings of the SOP.
Proverbs 8:22-25 is clearly something that happened before the work of creation began. Birthing language is clear as well.
Psalms 2:7 is a repeated decree, originally from the days of eternity and then the resurrection/coronation.
@@Rymmila praise God brother! So clear! If Trinitarians had only taken the time to study out in-depth materials on these such as that by Terry Hill and AsItReads. As we have addressed ALL these objections.
🙏 Amen!
John : 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Jesus Is Equal with God
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath,
but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
The Authority of the Son
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:
for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Philippians 2: 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Colossians 1:15-20 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and
that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead;
that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The Rider on a White Horse Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True,
and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written,
that no man knew, but he himself. Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Jesus
The SDA Non Trinitarian movement does not deny the divinity of Christ. He is fully God as His Father, because He brought forth from His Father bossom. Its the same principle with Adam and Eve. Eve is fully human thou she came out from Adam, Adam is the source and He is older, no christian will say that Eve is not a human or a lesser human because she litterally came from Adam. Same principle when Mary brought forth baby Jesus. jesus is fully human, because the fact of He came out from a human. Nobody will say that Jesus is a lesser human than Mary.
The SDA non trinitarian do worship Christ
Here is the principle :
If we honor the Son, the honor doesnt stop at the son, but goes to the father. If you praise the son of someone, you praising his father. If we honor and bow down to the prince, we are honoring the prince father, the King.
John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
All the glory to Jesus, doesnt stop at Jesus but goes to our God and Father
Phi 4: 19And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.
20To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The God of Jesus, The Father of Jesus gave Jesus all power, and the Glory that Christ receiveth goes to the Father
John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand-with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Angels submit to the Son, who sit at God's right hand. Only two divine being sit together.
All the host of heaven knows who they worship, all the earth will join all the heaven and, and they only worship 2 divine beings, no third being is worship by heaven and earth.
Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
To Him (Singular), a singular God who sit on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor, glory and power for ever and ever.
We worship, we pray, we give glory to God our Father thru and in His Son.
the end will come, and the Son will hand over the kingdom to God, His Father.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
Yes, the One true God movement worship Jesus as the The Son of God, as the Lord and savior, and we know when we do this, all glory and praise will go to the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Because His Father gave all power amd authority only to His only Son, He is to be worshipped
Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed
The Father gave command to the angels to worship His Son.
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
All the disciples worship Jesus on the basis of His Sonship, of the facts that Christ is the Son of God
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
7 witnesses that Jesus has a God:
1. God (Psalm 45:7; Hebrews 1:8,9)
2. Jesus (Mark 15:34, John 20:17, Rev 3:12)
3. Gabriel (Revelation 3:12)
4. John (John 20:17, Revelation 3:12)
5. Paul (2Cor 11:31; Eph 1:3,17; Heb 1:8,9)
6. Mark (Mark 15:34)
7. David (Psalm 45:7; 89:26)
How many witnesses that Jesus' Father has a God?
Zero (0)
Jesus, the man, has a father who is God. No one is arguing against this. My question for you remains. Is Jesus “truly” God?
@@powerofthelamb this is the 5th time you are asking after I quoted Hebrews 1:9 saying that God described His Son as God while describing Himself as His Son's God. Are you trolling me? Or are you forgetful? 😅🤣
@@kylontobias let me ask a sixth time. I am asking is Jesus “truly” God?
@@powerofthelamb Pastor, do you believe this: "Jesus, the man, has a father who is God?"
Is this your position?
@@cmc8176 that’s my position, yes.
A fallacy that both Trinitarians and One True God people fall into is to assume the immutability of time. Through Christ, ALL things were created. Why do people think that time is uncreated? Kronos was a Greek god not a Biblical one. OTG people assume some kind of time before time, making Christ defacto created.
As a result the time fallacy, Trinitarians have to posit that Christ is not actually begotten(alternate meaning is brought forth), ie. he always existed as we understand Him as God...and time. Trinitarians can't take John 3:16 just as it reads.
That God transcends time and exists independent of time is impossible for us finite beings to comprehend.
From before the foundation of the world God provided Himself. Is this why Adam and Eve did not die immediately when they sinned?
So sad. What terrible warfare against Christ’s Divine Sonship. I can tell by the way you are presenting everything that you never really took the time to watch the 2 new videos produced by Judgment Hour (a TH-cam channel).
In This Was Manifested the Love of God - Parts 1 and 2.
You really need to watch these videos before you proceed.
Judgement Hour did an excellent presentation on this study 😊🤔
Their “Established by Force” presentation was excellent as well.
Amazing how much SOP and how little Bible was used in said presentations.
@@powerofthelamb Bible always First... and SOP can be helpful if needed But, BIBLE
@@powerofthelamb I think you forget a very important fact. SDA Trinitarians are always using Ellen White to prove the Trinity. They always quote her "three person statements" whenever you use the Bible. The purpose of Judgment Hour's videos is to help SDA Trinitarians see that Ellen White was not a Trinitarian like SDAs claim she was. If SDA Trinitarians are willing to stick with the Bible alone, we are more than willing to do that too. But we always run into situations when we are presenting a Bible study, and the first thing the SDA Trinitarians do is throw Ellen White in our face to try and prove the Trinity. This has been my experience anyway.
@marcosc.thaler2570 wasn't Judgment Hour ministry the ministry that MISQUOTED the historian Alexander Hyslop?
Wasn't this the ministry that tried to say Hyslop wrote against the Trinity, yet fail to show that the Trinity he was against was the Father, MOTHER, CHILD type of Trinity?
This is good Jesus was purchased to save me.
Brandon, who "purchased" Jesus?
2. From whom was Jesus "purchased?"
3. How much was paid to "purchase" Jesus?
Brandon, you may want to rethink your statement above.
1111111 I was blessed
Do u have the slides for this man thank Jesus
Happy sabbath! So you agree in Jesus existence in eternity past?
😅I was worried, you got me! I’m Actively Rewatching the live…
O okay! 😢
Help me understand the chronology: Jesus was set up as the sacrifice for salvation of man - before the Earth had been created. Then satan sinned and was cast to the Earth, along with 1/3 of all angels, to tempt the young couple in the Garden of Eden. Earth begins to feel like a test tube and mankind an experiment, I’m sad to say - sometimes. God is good, omnipotent, creator - where else would one go and survive? But it turns out it wasn’t that satan couldn’t stay in heaven and just had to be cast OUT. He was part of the experiment - cast specifically TO the Earth - to tempt. Man would fall and need salvation, which God had planned before any of this ever happened. Maybe it was just a safety measure - man could have chosen either way, and may not have failed, condemned to death. But God knows everything - so He knew, right? It blows my mind. Surely we’re not swimming around in a test tube?
It’s not that I’m ungrateful - I try to understand the love and sacrifice of both the Father and the Son. And my experience has proven my faith over decades - God is good, and has saved me.
But on a bad day, I wonder about this sequence of events. It was NOT circumstantial that satan was cast here - as if Earth had just coincidently just been created, and God needed a place to cast satan, and no other place was suitable for some reason, so it began the temptation by this deadly being, the sin, and the millennia of suffering and death. And the impending end time persecution such as the world has never seen. Salvation is not free - God suffered.
But salvation is also not free to man - it is NOT just saying a sincere prayer and asking for forgiveness - it is about ENDURING until the end of this suffering by painful, humiliating death at the hands of this same satan and his deadly horde. I’m sorry. It sounds really bad. But are these not the facts? Is the sequence of events correct?
Profound questions. I’ve noted and will answer soon.
Pastor Myers, can you state your position (written) in the comments.
Proverbs 8 is Christ incarnate speaking of his incarnation and that it was set up from before the creation of the earth.
“And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and WE SAW HIS GLORY, glory as of the ONLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14, NASB)
“NO MAN HATH SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME; the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, which is in the bosom of the Father, HE hath DECLARED HIM.” (John 1:18, KJV)
“(Not that anyone has seen the Father except the ONE WHO IS FROM GOD - HE HAS SEEN THE FATHER.)” (John 6:46, NET)
Clearly, no man on earth has seen the Only True God of John 17:3. Men and women have seen the Only Begotten Son Who was sent according to John 1:14,18; 3:16; John 17:3-8. To claim that the true God of John 1:18 are Three Beings, is also to deny John 1:18. A trinity god which included a Jesus Who men have seen, denies John 1:18 as being true since men have seen Jesus.
Paul also taught that The Father was never seen:
“He is the IMAGE of the INVISIBLE GOD, the firstborn over all creation,” (Colossians 1:15, NET)
“Now unto the King eternal, immortal, INVISIBLE, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” (1 Timothy 1:17, KJV)
“which He will bring about at the proper time--He who is the blessed and ONLY SOVEREIGN, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16. WHO ALONE possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom NO MAN HAS SEEN OR CAN SEE. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.” (1 Timothy 6:15-16, NASB)
“Anyone who goes too far and does NOT ABIDE IN THE TEACHING OF CHRIST, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son. 10. If anyone comes to you and DOES NOT BRING THIS TEACHING, DO NOT RECEIVE HIM into your house, and do not give him a greeting; 11. for the one who gives him a greeting participates in his evil deeds.” (2 John 9-11, NASB)
Question, do non trinitarians worship Jesus?
If we honor the Son, the honor doesnt stop at the son, but goes to the father. If you praise the son of someone, you praising his father. If the you honor and bow down to the prince, you are honoring the prince father, the King.
John 5:23
that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
All the glory to Jesus, doesnt stop at Jesus but goes to our God and Father
Phi 4: 19And my God will meet all your needs according to the riches of his glory in Christ Jesus.
20To our God and Father be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
The God of Jesus, The Father of Jesus gave Jesus all power, and the Glory that Christ receiveth goes to the Father
John 13:3
Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;
1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand-with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Angels submit to the Son, who sit at God's right hand. Only two divine being sit together.
All the host of heaven knows who they worship, all the earth will join all the heaven and, and they only worship 2 divine beings, no third being is worship by heaven and earth.
Revelation 5:13
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”
To Him (Singular), a singular God who sit on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor, glory and power for ever and ever.
We worship, we pray, we give glory to God our Father thru and in His Son.
the end will comw, and the Son will hand over the kingdom to God, His Father.
1 Corinthians 15:24
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
Yes the One true God movement worship Jesus as the The Son of God, as the Lord and savior, and we know when we do this, all glory and praise will go to the God and Father of Jesus Christ.
Because His Father gave all power amd authority only to His only Son, He is to be worshipped
Daniel 7:14
He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed
The Father gave command to the angels to worship His Son.
Hebrews 1:6
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
All the disciples worship Jesus on the basis of His Sonship, of the facts that Christ is the Son of God
Matthew 14:33
Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”
Luke 4:16 STOOD UP NITZAVIM H5324
Are not Michael and Jesus one and the same? I am rather confused. Could someone please clarify for me?
Yes same person
40:18 when you have a word in Spanish the day the time of day they're both masculine and feminine so wisdom in itself is attuned to as feminine. Do not get caught up in the gender of the idea Jesus is a woman or Michael as a woman because he is personified as wisdom... Which so happens to to be parsed as feminine
Really dont think so
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Born in eternity past? Soooo.... You have God, so then, where is the human womb that would birth Jesus in eternity past?
The fact that your comment was liked by the presenter shows ignorance. Why would God need a human womb to bring forth a Son?
Modern day mocking of the Son of God.
I wonder what the probleme is? Is it that some will make Jesus less then anything created?
If He was borne before anything created was created (angels as well as man), and that way the expreced image of His Fader and the cocreater of all things as well as everybody - He is still before all and over all. Right?
So, is there a probleme then that He had a beginning in comparison whith His Fader and even The Holy Spirit, loved as "the Only begotten Son"?
I cannot see a probleme with that, rather a beautiful picture of how we were created in God's (the Godhead's) image, male and female! Said repeatedly in the creation story.
Of coure not to be mixed with Mary or other godfigures in ancient times!!!
We do not know it all yet, since it has not been revealed clearly, but thohughts that do not belittle or degrade Jesus I have no probleme with.
Anyway, I appreciate your sermons very much, LYL ❤❤
The only problem here is that if Jesus had a begin, he is not "as God" as God is. He becomes a lesser God, which in turn leads to the idea that there is only "One true God" and Jesus is not that "One true God". Still a god, but not the "one true God." Thus he has been degraded from equality with God.
Following the concept of Father/Son....is your son any less a Myers than you are?....or any less an equal with any other human being? (And this is in our fallen human state) Why would God create man in His image with the ability to procreate if it were not for us to understand His great sacrifice in giving us His Only Begotten Son, not merely at Bethlehem but from eternal timelessness as the propitiation for sin and our salvation from it. There could not be a greater sacrifice.
Jesus explained very clear who is the Only True God in John 17:3 3 And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the ONLY TRUE GOD , and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. So we said this is a lie? Because they are 3 according to the Trinity
Paul explained it in 1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is ONE GOD, THE FATHER , of whom are all things, and we for Him; and ONE LORD JESUS CHRIST , through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Is clear ONE TRUE GOD is The Father , Jesus is the Son of God which means that He have a beginning as Proverbs 8:22-30 explained and EG white agree to it!
@@betzaidarivera2735 Is Jesus then just one of "many gods and many lords" or is Jesus the "True God"? There is no in between here. Is Jesus truly God?
@@powerofthelamb Does not the verse say “the only true God AND Jesus Christ” …………..it doesn’t say “the only true God Jesus Christ” ……. Jesus is Gods son & has the divine nature by inheritance….. you can have a son & that little baby will be no less human than you but you are obviously greater in that he came from you ……. he is definitely not the Father. Parents are greater than the children does that make the children less human? Of course not they are 100% equally human. So the idea that Jesus equality with the Father is destroyed or not recognized bc he is not in fact God in personality (the Father) is not sound. He is God by Nature & inheritance.
Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Btw I really appreciate your honest interactions with those who have different views than you.
Why a distinction between Michael and Jesus? I dont get it.
Michael, pre-incarnate Son of God. Jesus, the incarnate Son of God. The Incarnate Jesus is talking about his beginnings as a man. It isn't the pre-incarnate Son of God talking about his beginning. He has no beginning. But Jesus has a beginning. Proverbs 8 is talking about the the divine origins of the man Jesus. Joseph was not the one who "begot" him is 4 BC. It was the heavenly Father who begot him in 4 bc. And this had been foretold from "eternity".
Curious, how does a Father/Son relationship exist if they both have no beginning from eternity? Can you help me understand this? Why would they refer to themselves as Father and Son if they really aren't vs using a different relationship?
@@marjieismont3186 how does one exist who had no beginning?
Almighty God the Father just is, that's how one exists with no beginning. My question above was about your comment over the pre-incarnate Son, Michael, and how they are Father & Son without God becoming a Father after He has a Son vs Them being twins which would make more sense to my finite mind if they always existed together.
@@marjieismont3186 in the same breath accept that one can exist without having a beginning, apply this to Jesus too. The key is to remember that Jesus incarnate is the son of God. This is salvational truth.
In the form of the Holy Spirit😅
Kjv. Reads diferently. What version are you reading from. You are loosing and Kjv
The Bible indicates curse. is a man does not believe that Jesus is not God. God says wherever I curse, I curse Whatever. bless I bless.
Do not walk in the council of Ungodly. Let the blind lead the blind.
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😂halejah❤
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The basis at the start is that Jesus did not have a beginning.
What does John 5:26 state? "For as the Father has life in Himself, so has He given the Son to have life in Himself." In the context, this is eternal life. So this eternal life was given to Him (the Son of God), and thus, it implies a beginning.
John 1:1 has a beginning also. John could have started with, "From eternity was the Word, and the Word was with God....etc", but it doesn’t....it says there was a beginning.
So the very foundation of this video is not correct.
The text could have also said, in the beginning the word was born. John 5:26 is referring to Jesus, not Micheal. Why do AT do so much reading into the text that which is not there.
John 5:26 is half of a sentence. If you read to the period which is at the end of verse 27 is becomes clear that this passage refers to the incarnation:
John 5:26-27 (KJV) 26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; 27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of MAN.
@powerofthelamb I don't understand what you are saying. I understand Michael to be a name of Jesus.
I don't understand what has been read into the text, as the context is about eternal life.
What does the rest of John 5:26-27 say? This is talking about His humanity, not Divinity.
@@chrischung2365 Reading before and after John 5:26-27 shows the context of that life is eternal life, not human life. Even in verse 26, the life first mentioned is not human life, but the eternal life.
1 Marcia😅
Here’s a depiction of what’s going on here. Remember we are dealing with divine things here so this isn’t a perfect example. In place of Adam Let’s pretend that ivor was the first man created & had no mother & was not born. Ivor has a son who is born. Is Ivors son less human bc he was born instead of created by the hand of God?
Ivor (Mr. myers) = 100% human
Your son (Mr. myers)= 100% human
Your son is NOT ivor!!!!
Your son was born & not created by the hand of God
Question: So is the son truly Mr. myers??
Here’s the difficulty….Because ivor was created by the hand of God in order for his son to be equally human he must also be created by the hand of God? …..WRONG….he is equally human even tho he is born from the womb.
God has no beginning so the Son also must have no beginning or he is not God …..false line of reasoning….. obviously Christ has no beginning in the sense of if we continue to go back even to eternity in the past ….well here’s the thing God is above time you cannot measure him by going back in history …so you cannot measure Gods Son birth by time …… in fact the Son created time & the comprehension of it so how can we judge Him by our limited understanding…..He is above it. “Beginning” for God is infinitely beyond beginning for us.
@@jacobo9826 Yes, he is. Truly human. Only problem is that this is a human analogy. My son is not equal in authority to me. If I were to ask you if Jesus is the “true God,” what would you answer?
Your constant clearing of your throat makes it difficult to keep focused on what you are saying. Good content so far though.
I know. I’m sorry. 😣
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Wikipedia/ NITZAVIM
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