A great contribution from both, and a pleasure to listen to the biographer of Malcolm Hulke giving such a measured, justified critique of the recent War Games colourisation and abridgement. Many thanks, Brendan and Michael. All the best for now. Paul
Whatever your view on this repackaging of The War-Games is I think there is a valid discussion needed here on why it is the work of Authors and Directors from the early years of the series are seen as 'Fair Game' by both BBC and current Producers. The recolourised and edited version doesn't replace the original serial. It is just a bit of 'fun' and stands best as demonstrating what colourisation technology can offer, and and acting as a 'What If...?' version of the story. It's really more the case that it is the marketing of it that is rankling people. The claims of Phil Collinson etc, their assertion that key villain The War-Chief was actually The Master, the way the final scenes rewrite the original serial's intentions in writing out the Troughton Doctor, and all of this is being given a veneer of approval because it is the BBC authorising and sponsoring its production, and releasing it commercially on Disc, on I-Player, and a showing on BBC television. No regard for the original authors intentions, or director David Maloney, just a commercial release made by professional Doctor Who fans, and the current producers of the series. Malcolm Hulke was known to be fiercely-protective of his work, I recently read BBC memo concerning his abandoned script 'The Hidden Planet', so his sense of ownership and professional standing wouldn't have been well disposed to the heavy editing of The War Games. For whatever reason, maybe the fact that this is such old material and the makers all gone, the Producers of the current series do not feel any real respect or caution in trying to change key elements of these old stories. It's all Fair Game to them. And I think in the end that it IS disrespectful yes - If the writer and script-editor of the Troughton and Pertwee years weighs-in and makes clear that the War-Chief was *not* the Master, then who is Phil Collinson or Russel Davies to take such a massive liberty and make that character, and that writers story, their own...?!! You know very well Davies would not approve or tolerate-such treatment of his own work. He may have no ability to _stop_ it happening to his work, but if he disapproves, he disowns it. Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke on the other hand have no say today. And maybe THAT is the point.
You mentioned that It's an official BBC marked publication, which is the major issue that bothers me too, It's massively insufficient for that.. I watched the b+w 10 episodes last week (for the 1st time) and every scene is relevant to the story , it's a masterpiece of British TV. I also enjoyed the rhythmic pulsing electronic noises that accompanied the scenes, which are barely noticeable unlike the newly edited music which would have been better suited to a 1920s silent movie. What a shame the excellent work by the colourists was ruined by hacking it to bits, and really that awful soundtrack.
I think the best for the show would have been to do "One Unedited Episode" to demonstrate their colorization skills (the only positive) they would have had the fans (and new audience) clamoring for a full series color restoration Blu-ray release.. Instead of this shoddy edited bargain bucket attempt .
It was the "fan wank" as I call it that ruined it for me. Colourisation, no problems. New effects no problems but deciding to change cannon because you think it should be your vision is so wrong. Editing. I would rather wait 2.5 years for a full 10 episode run. So I won't be buying the blu-ray either. To be fair I was at the WANT meeting in 1986 and Terrance Dicks watched the War Games with the group and he did admit you could remove 4 episodes. That's what he told me.
Daleks sitting around talking to each other sounds like epic TV -- "oh . Good. Evening. Brandon. What. A. Lovely. Surprise. I. Shall. Put. The. Kettle. On. HY-DRATE!!"
The Master always has a sense of humour, the War Chief doesn't. They're not the same character! (And the Master's humour was important in the show's evolution wasn't it, as an antidote to the hard edge of Season 7?). Besides, what's wrong with having an array of errant Time Lords? "RETCON" has been terrible for Doctor Who - the War Chief, Sutekh, the Celestial Toymaker, and above all the Timeless Child.
The editing of the colourised Daleks story should have been a warning. Taking a 10 episode epic and butchering it in the way it has been to produce what can only be described as an abomination demonstrates that the fools in charge of Dr. Who now know nothing, or worse, don't care about classic Who. To fundamentally change the story is so disrespectful to the original people who wrote, directed and produced this. Their arrogance to think that they know best is unbelievable.
Whoflixes recent black and white 90 minute fan edit before this release came out is an awesome edit and proves it is actually possible, if someone actually knew how to edit and had care for the story
I just got the chance to view this. It was a thoroughly enjoyable and interesting watch Brendan. I agree completely with everything, I got more irritated rather than invested as I watched the edited War Games. I'd like to know if the families of Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke were consulted before this act of vandalism? When I started at grammar school, I was amazed to find Malcolm Hulke had visited it in the 70's and donated a signed edition of The Cave Monsters to the school library. I believe he visited schools to inspire young writers, and I wish I'd got the chance to meet him.
Im really looking forward to this. "Travesty" sounds like a strong statement indeed , but it comes from the lips of someone incredibly qualified to make this remark.
It was the wrong story of troughton to go for first. It was badly edited being the longest Dr who story so made little sense as much was left out. If they wanted to colourise a 2rd doctor story it should have probably been tomb of the cybermen or another surving four part story. I feel they only did this for old fan click bate and to insert the new doctors as face choices. They doctors regeneration was stolen in my opinion in style and even camera work from a fan based one on TH-cam but done better than the BBC. The master thing I don't mind to much if he wasn't supposed to be him I believe his character fed into that when they all set down and tried to put him together. I think they were just going for first again, first master, first second third regeneration on screen. First coloured second doctor. They always want first these days first woman Dr first black doctor, first gay doctor, latter first wheelchair soinobifita doctor, first lesbian doctor ect r rtd it's always about being first to do without asking is worth it.? All about being first without any content. Most of us are fairly open minded not bigots so for me gays are rebels without a cause they're treated the same not really persecuted so rebel's without a cause. I don't like being told I'm intolerant I don't have an ideology but I don't want my entertainment to be a continuous lecture on minority rights which they already have but they are a minority and don't appeal in stories whether they like it or not. Dr who is supposed to be science fiction not a lecture.. I don't want to hear about representation I want entertained with good stories. I don't want to see ugly people who can't act represented. I'm an ugly person myself I don't want reminded of it . I don't want represented on the screen. I want escapism science fiction good acting good stories not a lecture.
My opinion is the same as I had back last year it's a waste of money and the regeneration scene as well as contradicting the Two Doctors 6B really Spearhead from space is better that it was a reboot with nothing from the rest of the show needed as season 7 is probably the best of the entire class show especially inferno, really they should have just used the money on making an animation of The Savages.
EEwww ! Hooked on classics !! I remember those 45s. Early 1980s and they had the audacity to make an album of them !!! Awful stinkers of musical butchery. lol lol lol. - "we'll remember alwaaays..... the golden beach boys sounds...." aaargh!!!!
Just to show how unloved this pathetic edit of The War Games is. On AmazonUK, at the time of posting this, the ruined version is ranked at 891 in DVD & Blurays for the steelbook and 554 for the DVD. The John Pertwee Season 7 Collection Bluray is at 6. Give fans what they want and they will buy it. Newer fans aren't buying this and older fans aren't either. Hopefully lack of commercial success will kill any further ideas they have to disrespect classic Who.
DW undeconulkr RTD and co has becomes it's own tribute act. Thy can't come up with a ything new that is good so now they steal and plunder from the past but worst of all do so without the passing of the original writers and cast as obviously they are not able to give an opinion. I was watching the Daleks colourised and the lack of menace in what was beautiful shot corridoor scenes was a real shame. People made fun of DW for it's corridoors but one thing is certain, they were beautifuly lit and chasings shot from interesting angles where light was the key. The colourisation has destroyed that wonderful effect.
At the end of the day, the BBC own this IP and can do what they like with it. If anyone doesn't like it, they have literally 60 years of stories and audio to be getting on with. Crying about it is just sad. Move on ffs
Who is crying? I did not witness that event. No need for swearing. No need to be immature in your debating skills. And no need to be selfish. You clearly do not understand debate and discussion and freedom of expression. You clearly love your cancel and erase and shut down any contrary opinion. Boy you have a lot of growing up to do.
Dull interview, riddled with errors (doesn't bode well for Michael's book!). Who are these two crybabies? Didn't Hulke himself cut out huge swathes of "The War Games" story when he wrote his 144-page Target adaptation? You silly sods. Malcolm would have hated the pair of you.
Your choice of dull as an adjective is just your pejorative slant. It’s a shame you have not heard Michael Herbert before talk about Malcolm hulke and the slim war games book. Sadly you are one of that growing band who shout their triggered mouths off without thinking or knowing their facts. It’s a sad indictment on 2015 society
Absolute cultural vandalism. But even worse, why do a bulk of the modern audience think this nonsense is now canon? Surely they can't seriously think so, considering its cut down from 10 episodes down to a mere 90 minutes with idiotic retcon changes shoehorned in? Sorry but it just has to viewed to be a bit of fluff, it was rushed and made little sense, cutting out a lot of the plot, character development, overlapping scenes and dialogue, with a bunch of retconned stuff thrown in - especially with the War Chief, just because he was a Timelord with a beard and he was doing bad stuff, why does that automatically make him the Master? Just ridiculous. The second half was a total mess. Also why would you show pictures of the faces of future incarnations and why is it all Nu-Who Doctors, especially as when one of the sketches in the original version looks very much like the 5th doctor, it's just nonsense. This is just a truncated version of a much better story for the ADHD generation, nothing more. The colourisation was impressive though.
For RTD to say this is the way the episode should have been seen and that he was going to do the same with other stories is the height of arrogance.
My mum, a first-time viewer, couldn't understand the rebels as they seem to appear from nowhere!
When Ted Turner colorized classic movies he never said "I think I can improve on Orson Welles performance here."
A great contribution from both, and a pleasure to listen to the biographer of Malcolm Hulke giving such a measured, justified critique of the recent War Games colourisation and abridgement. Many thanks, Brendan and Michael. All the best for now.
Paul
Whatever your view on this repackaging of The War-Games is I think there is a valid discussion needed here on why it is the work of Authors and Directors from the early years of the series are seen as 'Fair Game' by both BBC and current Producers.
The recolourised and edited version doesn't replace the original serial. It is just a bit of 'fun' and stands best as demonstrating what colourisation technology can offer, and and acting as a 'What If...?' version of the story.
It's really more the case that it is the marketing of it that is rankling people. The claims of Phil Collinson etc, their assertion that key villain The War-Chief was actually The Master, the way the final scenes rewrite the original serial's intentions in writing out the Troughton Doctor, and all of this is being given a veneer of approval because it is the BBC authorising and sponsoring its production, and releasing it commercially on Disc, on I-Player, and a showing on BBC television.
No regard for the original authors intentions, or director David Maloney, just a commercial release made by professional Doctor Who fans, and the current producers of the series.
Malcolm Hulke was known to be fiercely-protective of his work, I recently read BBC memo concerning his abandoned script 'The Hidden Planet', so his sense of ownership and professional standing wouldn't have been well disposed to the heavy editing of The War Games.
For whatever reason, maybe the fact that this is such old material and the makers all gone, the Producers of the current series do not feel any real respect or caution in trying to change key elements of these old stories. It's all Fair Game to them. And I think in the end that it IS disrespectful yes - If the writer and script-editor of the Troughton and Pertwee years weighs-in and makes clear that the War-Chief was *not* the Master, then who is Phil Collinson or Russel Davies to take such a massive liberty and make that character, and that writers story, their own...?!!
You know very well Davies would not approve or tolerate-such treatment of his own work. He may have no ability to _stop_ it happening to his work, but if he disapproves, he disowns it. Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke on the other hand have no say today. And maybe THAT is the point.
Hear hear David
You mentioned that It's an official BBC marked publication, which is the major issue that bothers me too, It's massively insufficient for that..
I watched the b+w 10 episodes last week (for the 1st time) and every scene is relevant to the story , it's a masterpiece of British TV. I also enjoyed the rhythmic pulsing electronic noises that accompanied the scenes, which are barely noticeable unlike the newly edited music which would have been better suited to a 1920s silent movie.
What a shame the excellent work by the colourists was ruined by hacking it to bits, and really that awful soundtrack.
I think the best for the show would have been to do "One Unedited Episode" to demonstrate their colorization skills (the only positive) they would have had the fans (and new audience) clamoring for a full series color restoration Blu-ray release.. Instead of this shoddy edited bargain bucket attempt .
I agree
I didn't watch The War Games in Colour and I certainly won't be buying it. I am, however, looking forward to Michael's book.
Me too
It was the "fan wank" as I call it that ruined it for me. Colourisation, no problems. New effects no problems but deciding to change cannon because you think it should be your vision is so wrong. Editing. I would rather wait 2.5 years for a full 10 episode run. So I won't be buying the blu-ray either. To be fair I was at the WANT meeting in 1986 and Terrance Dicks watched the War Games with the group and he did admit you could remove 4 episodes. That's what he told me.
I agree.
Me too
Daleks sitting around talking to each other sounds like epic TV -- "oh . Good. Evening. Brandon. What. A. Lovely. Surprise. I. Shall. Put. The. Kettle. On. HY-DRATE!!"
The Master always has a sense of humour, the War Chief doesn't. They're not the same character! (And the Master's humour was important in the show's evolution wasn't it, as an antidote to the hard edge of Season 7?). Besides, what's wrong with having an array of errant Time Lords? "RETCON" has been terrible for Doctor Who - the War Chief, Sutekh, the Celestial Toymaker, and above all the Timeless Child.
It is such tiresome fan fiction
Respect! Wonderfully conducted interview! Enjoying it very much! Thank you!
That’s lovely of you to say
The editing of the colourised Daleks story should have been a warning. Taking a 10 episode epic and butchering it in the way it has been to produce what can only be described as an abomination demonstrates that the fools in charge of Dr. Who now know nothing, or worse, don't care about classic Who. To fundamentally change the story is so disrespectful to the original people who wrote, directed and produced this. Their arrogance to think that they know best is unbelievable.
Whoflixes recent black and white 90 minute fan edit before this release came out is an awesome edit and proves it is actually possible, if someone actually knew how to edit and had care for the story
I just got the chance to view this. It was a thoroughly enjoyable and interesting watch Brendan. I agree completely with everything, I got more irritated rather than invested as I watched the edited War Games. I'd like to know if the families of Terrance Dicks and Malcolm Hulke were consulted before this act of vandalism?
When I started at grammar school, I was amazed to find Malcolm Hulke had visited it in the 70's and donated a signed edition of The Cave Monsters to the school library. I believe he visited schools to inspire young writers, and I wish I'd got the chance to meet him.
Thanks for your support
@noblerees1 you're welcome!
Consulted just as much as the estate of Terry Nation over the Davros retcon.
@paulholgate4664 not at all then!
Im really looking forward to this. "Travesty" sounds like a strong statement indeed , but it comes from the lips of someone incredibly qualified to make this remark.
Someone who knows hulke best
It was the wrong story of troughton to go for first. It was badly edited being the longest Dr who story so made little sense as much was left out. If they wanted to colourise a 2rd doctor story it should have probably been tomb of the cybermen or another surving four part story. I feel they only did this for old fan click bate and to insert the new doctors as face choices. They doctors regeneration was stolen in my opinion in style and even camera work from a fan based one on TH-cam but done better than the BBC. The master thing I don't mind to much if he wasn't supposed to be him I believe his character fed into that when they all set down and tried to put him together. I think they were just going for first again, first master, first second third regeneration on screen. First coloured second doctor. They always want first these days first woman Dr first black doctor, first gay doctor, latter first wheelchair soinobifita doctor, first lesbian doctor ect r rtd it's always about being first to do without asking is worth it.? All about being first without any content. Most of us are fairly open minded not bigots so for me gays are rebels without a cause they're treated the same not really persecuted so rebel's without a cause. I don't like being told I'm intolerant I don't have an ideology but I don't want my entertainment to be a continuous lecture on minority rights which they already have but they are a minority and don't appeal in stories whether they like it or not. Dr who is supposed to be science fiction not a lecture.. I don't want to hear about representation I want entertained with good stories. I don't want to see ugly people who can't act represented. I'm an ugly person myself I don't want reminded of it . I don't want represented on the screen. I want escapism science fiction good acting good stories not a lecture.
I totally agree
Triughton was the 2nd Doctor.
@paulholgate4664 absolutely right I'll correct the error I was mistaken. Thanks.
My opinion is the same as I had back last year it's a waste of money and the regeneration scene as well as contradicting the Two Doctors 6B really Spearhead from space is better that it was a reboot with nothing from the rest of the show needed as season 7 is probably the best of the entire class show especially inferno, really they should have just used the money on making an animation of The Savages.
Whilst it was interesting to see the story in colour, they cut out way too much.
EEwww ! Hooked on classics !! I remember those 45s. Early 1980s and they had the audacity to make an album of them !!! Awful stinkers of musical butchery. lol lol lol. - "we'll remember alwaaays..... the golden beach boys sounds...." aaargh!!!!
There will be no modern Who in my collection, the Tiemless child was the start and this disrespect of othe original show is the last straw........
Just to show how unloved this pathetic edit of The War Games is. On AmazonUK, at the time of posting this, the ruined version is ranked at 891 in DVD & Blurays for the steelbook and 554 for the DVD. The John Pertwee Season 7 Collection Bluray is at 6. Give fans what they want and they will buy it. Newer fans aren't buying this and older fans aren't either. Hopefully lack of commercial success will kill any further ideas they have to disrespect classic Who.
Good spot
DW undeconulkr RTD and co has becomes it's own tribute act. Thy can't come up with a ything new that is good so now they steal and plunder from the past but worst of all do so without the passing of the original writers and cast as obviously they are not able to give an opinion.
I was watching the Daleks colourised and the lack of menace in what was beautiful shot corridoor scenes was a real shame. People made fun of DW for it's corridoors but one thing is certain, they were beautifuly lit and chasings shot from interesting angles where light was the key. The colourisation has destroyed that wonderful effect.
Yes I almost think the editing of the Daleks in colour was worst for the very reasons you point out
The Dalek Master plan had high viewing figures just for the record..
Thank you
At the end of the day, the BBC own this IP and can do what they like with it. If anyone doesn't like it, they have literally 60 years of stories and audio to be getting on with. Crying about it is just sad. Move on ffs
Who is crying? I did not witness that event. No need for swearing. No need to be immature in your debating skills. And no need to be selfish. You clearly do not understand debate and discussion and freedom of expression. You clearly love your cancel and erase and shut down any contrary opinion. Boy you have a lot of growing up to do.
Dull interview, riddled with errors (doesn't bode well for Michael's book!). Who are these two crybabies? Didn't Hulke himself cut out huge swathes of "The War Games" story when he wrote his 144-page Target adaptation? You silly sods. Malcolm would have hated the pair of you.
Your choice of dull as an adjective is just your pejorative slant. It’s a shame you have not heard Michael Herbert before talk about Malcolm hulke and the slim war games book. Sadly you are one of that growing band who shout their triggered mouths off without thinking or knowing their facts. It’s a sad indictment on 2015 society
@@noblerees1 It's 2025, not 2015. Sorry my comment triggered you.
Absolute cultural vandalism. But even worse, why do a bulk of the modern audience think this nonsense is now canon? Surely they can't seriously think so, considering its cut down from 10 episodes down to a mere 90 minutes with idiotic retcon changes shoehorned in?
Sorry but it just has to viewed to be a bit of fluff, it was rushed and made little sense, cutting out a lot of the plot, character development, overlapping scenes and dialogue, with a bunch of retconned stuff thrown in - especially with the War Chief, just because he was a Timelord with a beard and he was doing bad stuff, why does that automatically make him the Master? Just ridiculous. The second half was a total mess.
Also why would you show pictures of the faces of future incarnations and why is it all Nu-Who Doctors, especially as when one of the sketches in the original version looks very much like the 5th doctor, it's just nonsense.
This is just a truncated version of a much better story for the ADHD generation, nothing more. The colourisation was impressive though.
Interesting also that the only missing nuwho doctor was eccleston because he’s turned into a critic. They are very sensitive souls