Learn more about the 1MOA all day long challenge here: th-cam.com/video/BM3SHvYosSs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Hr5Mr0h7AsXZOZwe Check the HWOW app: forgottenweapons.vhx.tv/videos/20240722-m7-xm7-discussion-2 HWOW is a collaborative project to help preserve weapon academic videos and quality support historical academic channels!
I guess u need true professional videos editor to high light the chosen target u shot instead showing multiple targets which we don’t know which one u r aiming & shooting 🤷♂️🤦♂️
@@منوعات-وعجائب2018i already mentioned that the camera was incorrectly setup for the first string. If you are unable to discern the latter strings then that’s on you.
Excellent! Please do more. My father a WW2 vet and a Tennessee country boy with traditions to uphold, Won all sharpshooter and marksman medals with all weapons. He loved the 03 Springfield, but strangely he never mentioned the Garan❤d!!??
Working in a gun shop, 85% of the customers that talk about their groups, are “always under 1” everyday of the week” . The best part is when you run into the at the range with said rifle and they haven’t printed a single group under 1” in the couple boxes of ammo they’ve used. It’s really my favorite hobby
I remember posting on a gunboard once that my accurized M1A (USGI barrel, unbedded fiberglass stock) could shoot 3 MOA consistently with M80 equivalent ammo, the consensus was that the rifle needed to be pulled apart and sold for parts. Many shooters have no clue what such rifles and ammo were really designed to do.
It's like the Otto von Bismarck quote: "People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt." But here it's like "People never lie so much as before shooting at the range."
As always, excellent shooting! 1 MADL challenge is quite complex as it requires perfect performance from the rifle and shooter. One small mistake and you can fail. This is why we included the possibility of making a couple of warming shots before doing a 10 shot grouping. Another factor that is quite important but often overlooked is the barrel heating up. Sure, with 10 rounds of slow fire you won't make it super hot but the temperature delta from the first and last shots will be relatively big. Anyway, the plan for next year is to look at the rules and make the challenge accessible to more people. My idea is to engage people in a fun training task but also get as many good data as possible. With comparable results like this we can even put together a list of rifles by accuracy
I've been experimenting with commercial and handloaded ammunition in a CZ527 Varmint (1:9 twist) chambered in .223 Rem. Conclusion, budget factory 62gr ammunition is useless for precision, GGG 5.56x45mm 62gr is accurate enough for a Fig 11/59 target at 100>400 yards/metres. Handloads are in a different league, however, it's easy to have 1 flyer which spoils the group. I believe the rifle is mechanically capable. The precision of the handload must be exact and the shooter behind the gun error-free. My AI is cheating but doesn't meet the rules (5.94 kg 13.1 lbs with magazine, no scope and mount, bipod, sling, etc). The SSG3000 chambered in 6.5x55SKAN was always my dream rifle!
I mean frankly it's okay to not be 1MOA or better because it's an unrealistic expectation. The issue is when a single manufacturer guarantees that under dubious circumstances, it forces the rest to also comply when the consumer base also buys into "every modern rifle should be 1MOA or better". 1MOA or better is a nasty marketing term that does the industry no good in development and does the consumer no good in misleading information.
@@9HoleReviews Consistent 1 MOA groups are totally achieveable with modern rifles. I won a fairly cheap Bergara B14 Wilderness Thumbhole in 6.5 PRC which consistently prints sub-MOA groups literaly "all day long" with factory ammo (Hornady Precision Hunter). I've been at the range last week and I shot 11 groups of 5 shots each. All of them were well below 1 MOA, 8 of them were even below 0.75 MOA. Given that I am not the greatest marksman out there, there is still some space for improvement. I am aware that this is just one rifle and a different one of the same model can be worse. However, I saw a lot of the newer Bergaras that can consistently shoot below 1 MOA. Especially the HMR models chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor or one of the PRC cartridges offer great precision and should all be able to print sub-MOA groups consistently if you use the right ammunition.
@@Odinforever2000 "with match ammo" translates to: "with at least one kind of match ammo". They basically confirm that you will find at least one kind of match ammo that is capable of shooting sub-MOA groups with the rifle. Basically, that doesn't tell you anything. Especially with handloads, you can get almost any rifle to shoot sub-MOA groups. To be fair, most rifles are capable of shooting sub-MOA with several kinds of ammo. My Beragara shoots sub-MOA with all of Hornady's offerings in 6.5 PRC as well as with Norma's Bondstrike Extreme and Sako's Powerhead Blade.
@@Odinforever2000 "Match ammo" is the new "military grade". It holds no meaning. Real match ammo is hand loaded with precision scales and tooling, dialed in by the person themselves, or a team member.
Henry ,Josh I learn a lot from both of you. Thank you. As a Marine sniper told me "forget tight groups. All you need is to hit who you shoot at. Nothing else matters." He elaborated further. " Your not going to shoot the same guy twice in the same spot."
I just hate that it's necessary. The people typing those things, with cheeto dust on their fingers, never ever have significant range time under their belt.
@@andersjjensen Its not just the internet. I work with a guy like that, his "800 yard qualifying shots with 5.56" along with "sub 1 second draw to fist shot" stories get a lot of laughs.
I used to think you needed a mechanical rest like a lead sled. Then I realized it’s more of a hinderance than anything because that’s not how you hold a rifle. Front and rear bags provide excellent stability and let you shoot in a much more natural fashion. I got rid of my lead sled after realizing this.
I specifically recorded 23:56 because I knew there would be future comments concerning a lead sled. I know why some people think so, but things often seem impossible to those who can't.
I like a lead sled to see what a rifle can do. Generally speaking, I don't shoot prone or from the bench. I do most shooting sitting on the ground with the rifle resting on shooting sticks. Recoil is very mild with this method.
Same here, i bought a fancy $180 led sled. Zeroed at an indoor range thinking it was perfect, but when i took it out and shot with a friend using front and rear bags as a rest. Ended right by about an inch vs when i shot from sled indoors. Might be me, might be sled or change in conditions. But, it shot perfectly for me after zero adjustment from bag rest 🤷♂️
Uncle Bud's bulls bag for me, used them for 30 years, got a couple bipods, Harris and Accutac and like them as well but as far as I'm concerned a lead sled is a waste of money... Shooting off a lead sled is not realistic/applicable to the real world
I won a local BR 50 match years ago ,using a Harris bipod and a rear bag . I was up against many using heavy rests with adjustable tops . I was having a very good day ,not saying I could do that every time . The other fellas were none too pleased with my " cheap " set up
I also love my Swedish M/41b. One thing about the scope is it has no parallax correction. It is very sensitive to where your eye is behind it. Once you get used to getting an exact stock weld every time, the groups tighten significantly. Also, you can shoot this without lifting your head. You will not hit your face with the bolt. Great vid, I enjoyed it. Edit to add: you got about the same moa as I get with mine. I shot just over 5” at 400 meters using 142 gr Accubond Long Range loaded to the same velocity as the m/94-41 ammo, also using blank pull-down brass.
my m/41 clone, and ZF39 scoped m/38 can both do moa more often than not, but yea, it takes some getting used to with those old scopes. Im also hand loading 142gr SMKs.
Well done !!! I was a weapons officer at the Bundeswehr and fixed Small Arms from Walter PP to 20mil Canons 40 Years ago. We had to seroing them on the Range. I never used mechanical mount, except for adjusting new barrels by an optical system. All other seroing were made under the same conditions as in the field. Kind regards from Germany, Rudi 👍
Real life accuracy test is 5 shots within a 10cm circle target at 300m shot from 5 different shooting positions and minimum 20 minutes between shots. We used this as a unofficial qualifying test for a DM in my Norwegian National guard unit. In my unit we could use almost whatever rifles we wanted as long as thet were chambered for 7.62NATO. This was in the 1980'ies-90'ies. My main rifles at the time was a Tikka M55 with hammerforged Kongsberg match barrel/laminated wood stock and a sivilian FN M98 Mauser with a Kongsberg match barrel and McMillan HTG stock. Both rifles had military S&B-scopes (pre PM2) Regarding pure accuracy at the time, notthing could touch the Steyr SSG69 if evaluating a batch of 100 rifles with consecutive serial numbers produiced on an "industrial" production line. The barreld action of an SSG69 had to print the first 10 shot fired from a machine rest in a group of less than 10cm@300m or the barreled action was rejected.
My father, who was an industrial systems control engineer, had two rifles with two-groove O3 barrels. One was a 1903-A3 he had, regrettably, sporterized. Nothing drastic, just removed some of the mounting hardware so it could be glass bedded into a Monty-carlo style stock to free float the barrel. The other is a refurbished M1 Garand, built off of a Winchester receiver. Apparently the barrel was made from a two-groove 03 barrel mated to the Garand barrel extension. Both rifles are ridiculously accurate. My brother has the 1903 and I have the Garand. I haven't shot any other 03-A3 rifles to know, but my father swore by the accuracy potential in the two-groove barrels. From what I understand from talking to my father, free-floating the barrels on mil-surplus bolt-action rifles greatly improves their accuracy. Another thing he would do is slug the bore, usually with molten sulfur, to get a true bore measurement so that he could get the correct bullet diameter. Then he'd reload until he found the preferred blend for the specific rifle. Mil-Surplus, even match grade, are still subject to mil-spec tolerance systems of QC. The bores may not be consistent, depending on the frequency the rifling bits were changed out. War-time production models will also suffer from fitment issues due to quantity sometimes beating quality. Slugging the bore is the only way to know exactly what your bore diameter is and the true twist rate. If you do not know that for certain, your estimated calculations based on "what it should be" will be inaccurate.
As a statistician, I find an n=3 laughable. n=10 is a respectable sample size. I would be interested to know what the Standard Error was for these groups. It's an indicator of the reproducibility of the entire system, from the shooter through the weapon system to the ammunition.
Been arguing this forever and thats why I'm with Henry on the n=9. It's just more statistically relevant. I chrono 15 shots for my final chrono after workups. Just seems like a healthy # of datapoints than 3 or 5 (which is fine when doing the search portion of workups) to have a better understanding of the ES and SD and consistency of that loading. Same for groupings. Variables can throw a n=3 into skewed results. More datapoints in repeated sets gives you a much clearer picture. People don't want to hear that though because it often gives them results they don't want. As we say in gaming spaces: skill issue. Seriously, shooting skills, ammunition consistency, is the weapon even put together correctly to get the best results? 😅
Great video and super impressed with the Hk.. For this I created a drinking game, for everytime I hear Henry say "PPU Ball Ammo".. I take a drink.. I was asked not to return to work today..
I have been amazed by the sl8- the things stacked with plastic parts (trigger, optics rail) and not the best ergo with the thumbhole but- the things got it.
Excellent comment at the end and absolutely correct! My Grandfather was a competition shooter who started me out learning to shoot when I was 8 years old on a .22LR. He was a stickler for learning the basics and making me adhere to them with every shot. By the time I was 10 years old he introduced me to a WWII 03 with long range open sights that he bought from an ad in the back of a magazine. Many times, as a result of my initial training I shot 7/8 inch groups (5 shot groups) at 100 yards. This all came in handy when I went into the military during Vietnam.
Barrels are heating up and creating small pressure spots against wood and barrel bands. (Groups opening and moving). Wood heats up and will become more/less malleable too. Free float is big game changer honestly
So all the sub MOA AR's on TH-cam are fake news? Is that what you're telling me? That the shooters lied and played tricks? Because there are plenty of examples of out of the box stock AR's posting 5 shot groupings not only MOA but we'll below it. Nearly 1/2" MOA. Including Geissele Super Duty rifles that they claim are not MOA rifles. Granted 3 shot groupings isn't enough to see what the true accuracy is but does it need 10? What standards should we be accepting here because I personally believe 5 is enough and 10 is too much. With 10 there is too much chance of human error involved. We are trying to see what the rifle will do. Not the shooter.
I'll take the Swede all day, everyday. I just love the 6.5x55mm cartridge!!! My "Swede" is a bubba-ed (before I got it) Husqvarna 38 with a Redfield 6x40mm scope. I get 1.5 MOA with factory Federal 140gr. My go to hunter. It still has the factory full length barrel on it.
having shot the swedish m41b in competition at 1000 yards and spent several years developing loads I can 100% say that heat built up under the handguard and made your grouping larger. firing a single shot and waiting a bit like in a competition when the rest of the line must shoot before coming back around will shrink it a bit, also get rid of your reloaded blank brass and get lapua brass the Swedish Mauser is a bit finnicky on accuracy with neck tension. Lapua brass gives me the best results. I also have found different powders will change group size depending on ambient temp and humidity both when loading and when shooting.
I do have lapua and norma for the nice loadings, but with the blank brass (and I neck size them all to address the neck tension), I am trying to duplicate the M/41 prick load, which it does quite well.
There is simply nothing better than the ol 6.5 Swede, hard to believe but in spite of it being one of the first rimless battle rounds and around 130 years old it is still as relevant and useful today as it's ever been. In fact due to the creedmore craze and resultant components it really takes it to the next level....
Well there is something better than 6.5 Swede, and that's 6.5 Creedmore. It's only marginally better though. And that is probably what makes 6.5 Sweede so much more impressive. 130 years of development, and "all we got for the update" was a 7mm shorter case, 1,100 PSI more chamber pressure, the exact same projectile and 18% less bullet drop at 1000 yards. Imagine if everything else had also only improved 18% in 130 years.....
I use both, Swede in bolt action and CM in semi-autos. I load the Swede a bit hot, 139 Lapua Scenar at about 860m/s(2820) with a shortish 20" barrel for long-range (out to about 1400m). But that Swedish Lapua factory ammunition is amazing, just about always in a single hole, but it's much lighter loaded, only giving me about 750/2460, which doesn't help for really long range.
My M41/b holds sub 1.75 MOA using surplus m/41 "prickskytte" ammo on most days, if I do my job right. I was lucky and purchased 8 battle packs of the stuff years and years ago and still have lots for use with my various M94 and M96 rifles. With commercial ammo, the groups open to 2.5 MOA still very respectable.
I love that the m/41 Carl Gustaf is derived from the m/96 Mauser Sweden first bought from Germany and later manufactured in Sweden under license. Still I´ve seen people here on youtube sharpshooting the m/96 with just the iron sights at over 500 yards!
@@TheSaintsAdvantage The best sniper in the world, at least according to me, was the Finnish soldier Simo Häyhä . He used Sako Mosin-Nagant M/28-30 ”Pystykorva” and never used a scope.
The HK93 was killing it with 55 gr ball! I have had very similar results with vintage sniper rifles also. Thank you for your take on this subject and the work on this video is appreciated.
Great video, thanks! Also, nice to find some other fan of the 6.5x55 Swedish out there. It is a great cartridge, that can do all 6.5CM can do at lower chamber pressures and perhaps thrice the barrel life. I have an Husqvarna m38 in 6.5x55 that shoots great (installed a 2.5x handgun scope in place of the rear sight as lately I find it difficult to shoot more than a very few shots with open iron sights) and then a Sabatti Tactical in 6.5x55 with multi radial rifling. That's definitely an all-day long sub moa rifle. With Lapua Open Tip Match 123 grains proved to be a sub-0.5 MOA... they are shockingly expensive, though.
The only AR pattern rifle I've handled that was 1 moa was a bushmaster (Windham, ME) varminter with hand loads using Barnes burners with a max load of varget. It was probably a ten pound rifle esp. with a 24 power Nikon scope.
There are quite a few. The early DPMS varmint 1-14 twist 223 uppers will. So will the Olympic Arms Winchester Super short uppers. And of course, all of the Les Baer Ar platform uppers and rifles. Probably many others but those are the three I have experience with. Heck the Les Baer will out shoot the best of the Remington Bolt guns that don’t say 40x on the side. Course running a 3” flat plate on the forend in an actual rest and using wind flags helps with seeing how the gun actually shoots instead of what a shooter thinks he can do. 👍🏼
1 MADL challenge is a great exercise even if you know you won't get 1MOA. My X95 produced 2.5MOA with M193 and I was actually quite pleased. If I can find some suitable match ammo (annoyingly rare in Canada) I'm looking forward to giving it another attempt. Thanks for giving this insight on what was considered sniper-grade accuracy by past militaries! I'm sure it dispelled a lot of myths and shut a lot of people up haha Great caveat - rifles are traditionally shot by people, not sleds. Shocking, I know.
Your closing reminds me of the classic line from an old Western, 'The Guns of Will Sonnet': "No brag, just fact". Thanks for a awesomely instructive video.
I'm glad that you pointed out that 1 moa is an arbitrary number. For those of us who grew up with wood stocked sporter rifles of the 1970s, 2 - 2.5" groupings at 100 yards was a fine hunting rifle. Non-bedded wood stocks are very suseptible to heat and humidity. Parallax and mirage were the shooters limitations with even very good glass on the NRA 100-yard course of fire. Therefore, pride in one's firearms always needs to be tempered with a heavy dose of reality. Many of these and other rifles would be great game rifles!
Im a USMC Vet, Gunsmith, and 07 FFL. While I would argue to truly test the mechanical accuracy and ballistic dispersion of a rifle you should probably shoot it from a sled and hand load to that given rifle to show its true potential. Or at least use a range of ammunition. That being said if you're able to shoulder it and shoot Sub moa obviously the rifle's more than capable. The premise of the video is actually something I've wondered about quite a bit so thank you for making it. And your completely right about calling out all of the American companies with sub MOA guarantees. Some of them do have good practices with their guarantees. That being said most use tests like you alluded to. Which is sad because even some high dollar AR's are capable sub MOA out of the box. Such as us arms core or some gieslee and JP rifles. And finally moa is not arbitrary. It has a definitive measurement and a true number. For example at 100 yd it's approximately 1.049 in. But you are completely right in the fact that most Americans treat it very arbitrarily. And follow a lot of the practices you discussed such as eliminating flyers or only shooting three shot groupings. All in all a good video with the great premise thank you for making it
If you were using the wood stock rifles with the sling, I could understand the change of shot impacts. Sling tension with the barrel not floated can change the impacts or group size. Barrel healing or a scope issue may be more of the change.
Ha- ha. As long as I only shoot ONE round, I can shoot sub MOA. You have to love marketing people. "Let's shoot a 100 3 round groups and only use one of them" Amazing when I go to the range and watch everybody shoot their rifle from the bench, and proclaim how great their marksmanship is.
i share your appreciation for the classics, but can't help feeling you unintentionally handicap the Swedes. They're so easy to shoot well, they can make you get lazy. What happened to the 'all day' part? Give Josh 100 rounds and let him hi-speed lo-drag tactically mag dump it in 10 min...you take 8 hours with your 100. You'll win.
How in the heck does your channel have only 500k subscribers? By now, after years of amazing content, clear explanations and wonderful topics, how are there less than a million? Something isn't right about that.
Well , just an observation, but........ This channel tends to lean into fact based data, no political spin, and shooting. Seems that most 'gun tube' types are not interested in that sort of thing.
I'm at the beginning of the video while writing this so I don't know what the results will be. That said, I've been a fan of the 6.5x55 cartridge since the early/mid-90's. Back when M96 Swedes were $79 and my AG42B cost me an outrageous $275! I wish I bought hundreds of thousands of rounds of Swedish military 6.5x55 ball ammo. Non-corrosive and match grade accuracy. Im down to my last 60 rounds of that ammo now.
In regards to the sweedish sniper rifle, I remember when I was a kid my dad would take us to the local gun store a good condition sweed cost 8$ to 12$. An excellent sweed , non issue was 16$ to 24$ , I should have had my dad buy me a # of rifles then worked them off. Also my dad offered to buy some unused Thompsons they were under 250$ but that was a lot of money then.
@@JH-lo9ut pocket change, there was more than a million of them in mobilisation stockpiles when they were replaced with H&K G3A3s during the cold war. Enough to arm over 10% of the total Swedish population at the time. Fun fact, the m/96 mauser cavalry carbine will likely stay in Swedish army service past the G3 (ak4)and the FN FNC(ak5) as the 6.5mm Mauser carbines are used by the semi-ceremonial Royal Lifeguards on horse! (Dressed and armed in late 19th century dragoon fashion)
I tell my NRA Basic Rifle students that rifle shooting is a statistical exercise. One shot tells them very little, ten shots is far more significant. Practice improves performance, your checkbook doesn't improve your skill.
A thought on the M1903 A4 Sniper point of impact change after magazine reload: the shooter is a part of the system. As others pointed out, lead sleds have a different poi than bags, the reason is barrel harmonics and dwell time. The shooter has to grip with the same tension every shot-not easy-or the system varies. Try this: 5 shots free recoil (let the rifle jump), 5 normal tension w bags, 5 gorilla grip into shoulder as hard as possible, and 5 in a sled or bipod. All will have different poi due to varying barrel position when round leaves, due to harmonics and dwell time changed by pressure on the stock. Also, Clean out that bolt! Seriously, if the firing pin is dragging it will affect poi. Sbooter is just an analog damper with poor feedback. A well tuned rifle will not be as affected by the shooter grip. 22lr will really show this due to light weight.
It may not be an issue with the 6.5x55, but I have always avoided converting blank ammo into live ammo due to quality control concerns regarding manufacturing techniques and tolerances of the brass.
Good epidode! I've spent a day with more than one of these rifles at my Rifle and Pistol club. My father's induction date into the USMC was January 28, 1942. He went to Boot camp at Paris Island abd used the Springfield 03A3 rifle throughout. He always said that he liked it more than any other rifles he used in WW2. Altogether he made 4 landings in the Cenrtral Pacific. First on Roi-Namur in the Marshalls, then Saipan and Tinian in the Marianas. Finally his last landing was on landing was on Iwo Jima. He never used the 03A3 in combat. Just FYI, knowing Henry is a Marine is one of the main things I got from my dad about his WW2 experiences was that for him Saipan was worse than Iwo Jima was, even though most Marines may feel very differently. It all comes down where and when you were. Back to modern times, I used to own a PTR91 with a Bill Springfield trigger. I found that it helped me quite a bit with the accuracy right out of the box. I was using a 4x Hensoldt w/Stanag mount of course. I think Hensoldt was one of the companies that produced military scopes company made the Carl Zeiss. They need no introduction to German WW2 and/or Cold War german riflescope users like you guys. Loved the rifle, fit and finish was actually better than the HK91 was. I just hated cleaning the rifle. I admit that I really cleaned it much more throughly than I had to or should've bothered to. I shot the Mauser 41B rifle aa couple of times. Old German Zeiss optics on top of Swedish steel. Even after 70 years the glass is so bright it's incredibe. It was a superior bolt rifle for its time, for sure. Sorry about the rambling people.
How many guys have claimed their SKS or AKM is sub MOA? Even TH-camrs, showing you their 6 inch, 3 shot group, will say it's 2 inches. I scream that each square on that target is 1X1 inch! There are 4 squares between each impact!
@@donwyoming1936 Whenever I see youtubers doing accuracy tests for rifles that are marketed as being accurate/precise and the youtuber immediately starts discounting rounds as "flyers" it makes me think they're shilling a lil bit. Unless they specifically say on camera "I pulled that one" and even say WHERE they pulled it to I just don't believe them. I say this cuz when I'm shooting groups when I pull a round I can tell where I pulled it to assuming the rifle was shooting pretty decent to begin with.
@@donwyoming1936 I actually have shot a .90 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Zastava m90. Maybe I should record it sometime. It was already a accurate rifle and shot well before I changed out the furniture, I think one thing that really helped was the TDI aluminum handguard, it had to be hand filed and hammered in with rubber mallet to fit, so there is no slop what so ever in the front of the rifle and think this tight fit really helped the accuracy despite not being free floated. Have seen similar effects with Zentico. I have a really hard time believing a 7.62x39 rifle could shoot that well though.
Luck is a factor for some small groups. I've seen sub-moa 3-5 shot groups from crappy guns using crappy ammo, but they aren't repeatable. With the enormous amount of luck one can achieve a 1 moa group from 3 moa system, but it doesn't make it 1 moa. Sidenote: that's why in Russian military accuracy test are done with groups of 10 shots. It's impossible to get a tight group purely because of luck
It's so funny that you addressed this at the end, since I was already assuming something like this when the SSG3000 was mentioned as one of the rifles being tested. And I wouldn't doubt your marksmanship skills given that I have been following this channel for a while now. Though I gotta say I was surprised on your comments on the shift of the height of impact after shooting a couple of rounds with some of those rifles, since you mentioned you have been shooting them a fair bit before this video was made.
A wood-stocked, non-free floating rifle DEFINITELY is affected by barrel heat. It can be minimized by a straight-grained wood and bedding points specifically designed to eliminate the barrel flex, but a hot barrel will nearly always influence group size. The Bloke on the Range can confirm this effect with the K31 Swiss rifle. Most of these are very accurate, but a slight warp in a warming stock is particularly noticeable in individual rifles.
I'm not a shooting or car expert, but the 1 MOA thing seems like the equivalent of a car's 0-60 speed: a not particularly important statistic that makes it easier for owners and marketers to brag about their product.
It's a combination of factors. 1 MOA is kinda a US standard for an accurate ammo/rifle combination. I think that is overrated for most applications, especially at unknow distances, wind/rain, different altitudes and target elevations, etc. Sometimes it's all about minute of man, either you hit or you don't and that's up to the guy behind the rifle.
Well made barrel helps alot to and like you said ammo having ammo that is constantly consistent is important that's why I handload my own ammo for long range shooting comp
Crap ammo can ruin a good rifle, but the finest craft ammo, only loaded when the moon is full and the humidity is exactly 50% at an air pressure of 101.3 MPa, can't improve a clapped out rifle. It can only show you, very accurately, how clapped out it is.
When i served in the youth home guard, we had this rifle until we turned 16 and were allowed to use automatic weapons (swedish k, AK4). So, that's the rifle i learned to shoot with.
barrel heating effecting POI is definitely something I've noticed on guns like the Lee Enfield where the forearm is in contact with the barrel and if that contact isn't in the prescribed place some wild and group enlarging shifts happen on 10 shot rapid fire groups. If it's on point the shift still happens but only in one plane instead of both.
@@juliannestingray5948well yeah it's literally a priceless firearm, it was already around 16k when it was made in the 80s, add inflation to that and you already have the base price of a lot of popular transferable machineguns and that's just what the original owner paid for it back in the day, now theres only a few dozen of them around at most and lots of people want them.
I have to admit that shooting actual groups and comparing the results is an interesting experiment, we know the guns can "hit" at great distances but not really what their mechanical accuracy capabilities are, particularly when dealing with older rifles past their prime.
The M96 Mauser is 1MOA as long the barrel is cold. The rifle has a rather light profile barrel - it heats up pretty fast and the groups are starting to grow. My Swedish M96 mauser is 2 MOA with handloaded match ammunition - 10 shots of course
I was amazed when I owned a $125 Surplus Swedish M96, we were at a square range with a metal deer target, that the range master said was a quarter mile away, around 775 yards. We lased it and it was "only" 675 yards, From a sandbag rest, the flying pencil bullets would ring that target all day long 4 out of 10 shots on average with the issued blade sights. Awesome rifle and caliber.
From Sweden. In northern parts of Sweden where moose are usually shot at large distances the 6.5x55 is still popular. Also preferred for treetop sitting birds. In the south 308W, 30-06 and 8x57 is more popular due to bigger impact energy. My German Heym 308 came with a certificate showing 3 shot within 1 MOA. Done with iron sights and ordinary hunting ammo (Norma Alaska). Never managed to achieve it with scope and match cartridges. Done it with Alaska. So rifles might be optimized for different ammo.
I own a 1903A4 an original Mosin sniper rife I had a lee Enfield with original T-32 Scope and a 98K with the Zf39 scope. The 1903A4 rifle barrel shot best but the Lee Enfield did best overthe 400 yrs mark because the T-32 scope was better than the others. My Zf39 won't hold zone past 8 or 10 shots it has an issue of some kind.
I used to stress out that I couldn't get "1 MOA all day long" from most of my rifles, and these days I'm much more relaxed about it. I have probably only one that will do it, and that's a custom match rifle. I also had an HK93 once and I miss it :(
Under 10 pounds is such a weird requirement. A battle rifle is accessories will be over 10lb, heck an M4 with a normal amount of stuff will be over 10lb especially the SOCOM barrel models.
I'm not going to argue about the M41b being the best sniper rifle of WW2 or not, but I want to add that it's not very strange that it was. The Mauser was already a solid rifle design, and the Swedish ones were apparently of excellent quality. The sniper rifles were then selected from rifles that was tested to be extra accurate, and then I believe slightly improved further and fitted with optics etc. We swedes did however have the luxury of not getting involved in the war so while the sniper rifles were still important to have and probably as soon as possible, there was no extra pressure to get rifles out to the front line or such. My point is simply that good materials, excellent gunsmiths and time to do it properly, apparently a good sniper rifle makes. :) Thanks for the video!
What is this "Marksmanship" thing? Is it some ancient art lost in the annuals of time like greek fire? Some might claim it is a myth like Atlantis. The world wonders.
Fitting that you wore a Norwegian uniform shirt while shooting the SSG 3000, The STR 200 which is esentially the same thing is the staple of the Norwegian target shooting community.
It would be an interesting experiment to shoot your M/41b at a slower rate of fire and see if effected group size. (say 30 sec per shot) I bet there is a sweet spot vis a vis barrel heating vs group size.
To get one MOA or near one MOA all day long, you need a good rifle tweaked for maximum accuracy and custom hand-loads. A lot of snipers used ammunition customized to and for that rifle.
I have the longer M96 Swede and i love it, i don't usually shoot 10 shot groups but it is very close to 1MOA the first 3-5. For it's age i'll take it, plenty accurate enough for hunting deer. And such a low recoiling round for the amount of energy it delivers.
I've only met one shooter that consistently shoots under 1MOA at 300+ meters with a .308. That would be my older brother, who only considers his rifle properly dialed in when he can saw two pieces of vertical rebar in half with two rounds each at 300m. It's actually kind of awe inspiring to watch.
Darn it, this was super interesting, now I want to see the same thing with modern sniper rifles. And where did you hide the funny Italian guy with the pants up to his bellybutton? It is hilarious to see your social interactions when you are bickering 😄 Great content as always 👌
I know a guy who has a SIGNED BY THE RANGE MASTER target from the old Los Angeles outdoor shooting range which shows three shots in one hole at 100yards fired from an open "Buckhorn" iron sighted "Uberti" - metallurgically and dimensionally exact copy of Kit Carson's .53 cal black powder Hawken- styled rifle residing in a museum in I *think* Taos, New Mexico. Carson was clearly a 'sniper' of both game, AND Native American's during the Indian Wars over what, 175 or so years ago? Soooo, would that make his rifle "Vintage";)
Thank you again , for bringing to mind the " One MOA all day Long ." I was one of those 3 or 5 shoot MOA persons , who thought , that was all that was needed for proof of continued accuracy " all day long."
I think a big part of the 1 MOA all day trope is that people have no idea what the necessary accuracy for a combat rifle is. If your rifle can actually print 2 MOA consistently, then you are going to be making a 10-inch group at 500M. At that distance, even moderate wind will have a stronger effect on the impact of your round than the rifle's inherent accuracy. With a 77gr Sierra Match King with a 2720 fps muzzle velocity, you will experience 27.9 inches of wind drift, almost 3 times the dispersion of the actual rifle. Furthermore, 500M is further than you will often be able to detect, identify and range targets for most hunting/tactical purposes. If you don't have the experience and skill to deal with wind at that range and more, it doesn't matter if your rifle is .5 MOA. You won't hit the target anyway.
I am from germany and all shooters over here got at least a M96 called "Schweden Mauser" or a K98 Kar. Both barrels get pretty quick very hot so after 10 rapid shoots, the grouping will get bigger. Use an M39 instead :P. The finnish barrels were way thicker and free floated too. I love my two M39s. Its missing here obviously...who was the most famous sniper in WWII...?😉
1st. Time viewing of your video site and now a regular subscriber. Enjoyed the detailed professional explanations of each individual rifles . Also , not having loud grating ghetto music during the presentation. Looking forward to the next video.
Bloke's challenge specifically allows two shots to warm the barrel before you shoot the group of 10. That would have got the second group for the sniper rifle under 1 MOA.
I wonder if the 2 seemingly distinct groupings had something to do with you reloading and having a slightly different eye placement behind the vintage optic. I would like to see this comparison again with more modern and closer to equal sighting systems on each rifle - or the same system if at all possible.
For a deer hunting rifle where one is not likely to shoot a lot, I can see a few, cold bore 3-shot groups. For hogs, prairie dogs etc. where the volume of fire is higher, sure, a 10-30+ shot group might be what’s needed to take in additional factors such as barrels heating up, fouling etc. Then we take in to consideration SD & ES of the ammunition and the shooter’s ability to remain calm and consistent while firing long string groups. The PPU was impressive, but the SD & ES is not too likely to rear its ugly head until it’s pressed out further, but not so far as to be effected by wind, drop in velocity etc.
Good Sir, I applaud the fact that you did not use a mechanical rest for your evaluation of these rifles. I also respect that you did not "cherry pick" the groups that you portrayed. My only real issue is that you chose to employ 10-shot groups for your experiment. As you well know, the point of aim can shift significantly as the barrel heats. Had you fired fewer shots, or allowed more time for the barrel to cool, the groups for all rifles would likely have been tighter. In any case, thank you for your efforts in producing a fine video.
![🥇 SAKO TRG42 [🇫🇮Arctic Sniper] to 1,000yds: Practical Accuracy](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/kl7lAyYlznw/mqdefault.jpg)
![🥇 SAKO TRG42 [🇫🇮Arctic Sniper] to 1,000yds: Practical Accuracy](/img/tr.png)
Learn more about the 1MOA all day long challenge here: th-cam.com/video/BM3SHvYosSs/w-d-xo.htmlsi=Hr5Mr0h7AsXZOZwe
Check the HWOW app: forgottenweapons.vhx.tv/videos/20240722-m7-xm7-discussion-2
HWOW is a collaborative project to help preserve weapon academic videos and quality support historical academic channels!
I guess u need true professional videos editor to high light the chosen target u shot instead showing multiple targets which we don’t know which one u r aiming & shooting 🤷♂️🤦♂️
@@منوعات-وعجائب2018i already mentioned that the camera was incorrectly setup for the first string. If you are unable to discern the latter strings then that’s on you.
The portuguese anthem "A Portuguesa"... as the only guntuber from Portugal i have to say: respect!
Excellent!
Please do more.
My father a WW2 vet and a Tennessee country boy with traditions to uphold,
Won all sharpshooter and marksman medals with all weapons.
He loved the 03 Springfield, but strangely he never mentioned the Garan❤d!!??
Mauser is not a swedish rifle ! It's german !
I can normally hit a large trash can 8 out of 10 times with a empty Scotch bottle.
I can usually get 4 out of 5 with a tequila bottle
3 out of 4 with a Burbon bottle
Ive found 16oz Coors Lite projectiles to be the most accurate
@@TXHoundDawg80Burbon OBVIOUSLY produces smoother recoil
I'd say Sir, that is some great Scotchmanship.
Working in a gun shop, 85% of the customers that talk about their groups, are “always under 1” everyday of the week” . The best part is when you run into the at the range with said rifle and they haven’t printed a single group under 1” in the couple boxes of ammo they’ve used. It’s really my favorite hobby
yeup. worked a counter for a couple years I love hearing all the snipers talk about their groups.
A good set up rifle is good start. Until the biological activator gets tired. Then forget it.
I remember posting on a gunboard once that my accurized M1A (USGI barrel, unbedded fiberglass stock) could shoot 3 MOA consistently with M80 equivalent ammo, the consensus was that the rifle needed to be pulled apart and sold for parts.
Many shooters have no clue what such rifles and ammo were really designed to do.
It's like the Otto von Bismarck quote: "People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt." But here it's like "People never lie so much as before shooting at the range."
Good video,major difference in Hot or cold. Especially on military guns. Cut the stock and make a good shooter.
Henry shooting 1 MOA in flip flops like his grandfathers did 😂
lol
savage 😂
Effing hilarious.
1moa of headshots on japanese raiders
😂
>Clicks on 9-Hole Reviews
>They're doing 10 shot groups
HERESY
i do 20 shot groups these days(and i have only 1 rifle that doesn't disappoint)
🤣
@@Sageofthe16 Pfft, none of my rifles disappoint. Much like my father would say, I'm the disappointment. Oh, now I'm sad.
As always, excellent shooting!
1 MADL challenge is quite complex as it requires perfect performance from the rifle and shooter. One small mistake and you can fail.
This is why we included the possibility of making a couple of warming shots before doing a 10 shot grouping.
Another factor that is quite important but often overlooked is the barrel heating up. Sure, with 10 rounds of slow fire you won't make it super hot but the temperature delta from the first and last shots will be relatively big.
Anyway, the plan for next year is to look at the rules and make the challenge accessible to more people. My idea is to engage people in a fun training task but also get as many good data as possible. With comparable results like this we can even put together a list of rifles by accuracy
MADL made many MALD haha
how about doing it with a desert eagle
@@nam430 one mad lad actually tried it with a target pistol
I've been experimenting with commercial and handloaded ammunition in a CZ527 Varmint (1:9 twist) chambered in .223 Rem. Conclusion, budget factory 62gr ammunition is useless for precision, GGG 5.56x45mm 62gr is accurate enough for a Fig 11/59 target at 100>400 yards/metres. Handloads are in a different league, however, it's easy to have 1 flyer which spoils the group. I believe the rifle is mechanically capable. The precision of the handload must be exact and the shooter behind the gun error-free.
My AI is cheating but doesn't meet the rules (5.94 kg 13.1 lbs with magazine, no scope and mount, bipod, sling, etc).
The SSG3000 chambered in 6.5x55SKAN was always my dream rifle!
@gregorypaulbox3035 no way to get 10 in 1 moa with 62gr. It's super cursed. Need 75gr match rounds minimum
Love the call-out at the end. The entire industry should be seeing this as a "put up or shut up" moment.
I mean frankly it's okay to not be 1MOA or better because it's an unrealistic expectation. The issue is when a single manufacturer guarantees that under dubious circumstances, it forces the rest to also comply when the consumer base also buys into "every modern rifle should be 1MOA or better".
1MOA or better is a nasty marketing term that does the industry no good in development and does the consumer no good in misleading information.
@@9HoleReviews Yea and manufacturers usually use the nebulous term "with Match ammo" as if all Match ammo shoots the same
@@9HoleReviews Consistent 1 MOA groups are totally achieveable with modern rifles. I won a fairly cheap Bergara B14 Wilderness Thumbhole in 6.5 PRC which consistently prints sub-MOA groups literaly "all day long" with factory ammo (Hornady Precision Hunter).
I've been at the range last week and I shot 11 groups of 5 shots each. All of them were well below 1 MOA, 8 of them were even below 0.75 MOA. Given that I am not the greatest marksman out there, there is still some space for improvement.
I am aware that this is just one rifle and a different one of the same model can be worse. However, I saw a lot of the newer Bergaras that can consistently shoot below 1 MOA.
Especially the HMR models chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor or one of the PRC cartridges offer great precision and should all be able to print sub-MOA groups consistently if you use the right ammunition.
@@Odinforever2000 "with match ammo" translates to: "with at least one kind of match ammo". They basically confirm that you will find at least one kind of match ammo that is capable of shooting sub-MOA groups with the rifle. Basically, that doesn't tell you anything. Especially with handloads, you can get almost any rifle to shoot sub-MOA groups.
To be fair, most rifles are capable of shooting sub-MOA with several kinds of ammo. My Beragara shoots sub-MOA with all of Hornady's offerings in 6.5 PRC as well as with Norma's Bondstrike Extreme and Sako's Powerhead Blade.
@@Odinforever2000 "Match ammo" is the new "military grade". It holds no meaning. Real match ammo is hand loaded with precision scales and tooling, dialed in by the person themselves, or a team member.
Henry ,Josh I learn a lot from both of you. Thank you. As a Marine sniper told me "forget tight groups. All you need is to hit who you shoot at. Nothing else matters."
He elaborated further.
" Your not going to shoot the same guy twice in the same spot."
The final few minutes of this video were so on point. I'm so glad you were able to make this video and get that point across so eloquently.
yo klay! Thanks for the kind words, i know we keep saying it but I want to hang out with you later this year!
@@9HoleReviews Yes indeed!
25:28 Henry beeing Sassy to Haters and Keyboard- Warriors must beeing one of my new Favorites. Classy owned with a light smirk.
I just hate that it's necessary. The people typing those things, with cheeto dust on their fingers, never ever have significant range time under their belt.
@@andersjjensen Its not just the internet. I work with a guy like that, his "800 yard qualifying shots with 5.56" along with "sub 1 second draw to fist shot" stories get a lot of laughs.
I used to think you needed a mechanical rest like a lead sled. Then I realized it’s more of a hinderance than anything because that’s not how you hold a rifle. Front and rear bags provide excellent stability and let you shoot in a much more natural fashion. I got rid of my lead sled after realizing this.
I specifically recorded 23:56 because I knew there would be future comments concerning a lead sled. I know why some people think so, but things often seem impossible to those who can't.
I like a lead sled to see what a rifle can do. Generally speaking, I don't shoot prone or from the bench. I do most shooting sitting on the ground with the rifle resting on shooting sticks. Recoil is very mild with this method.
Same here, i bought a fancy $180 led sled. Zeroed at an indoor range thinking it was perfect, but when i took it out and shot with a friend using front and rear bags as a rest. Ended right by about an inch vs when i shot from sled indoors. Might be me, might be sled or change in conditions. But, it shot perfectly for me after zero adjustment from bag rest 🤷♂️
Uncle Bud's bulls bag for me, used them for 30 years, got a couple bipods, Harris and Accutac and like them as well but as far as I'm concerned a lead sled is a waste of money... Shooting off a lead sled is not realistic/applicable to the real world
I won a local BR 50 match years ago ,using a Harris bipod and a rear bag . I was up against many using heavy rests with adjustable tops . I was having a very good day ,not saying I could do that every time . The other fellas were none too pleased with my " cheap " set up
I also love my Swedish M/41b. One thing about the scope is it has no parallax correction. It is very sensitive to where your eye is behind it. Once you get used to getting an exact stock weld every time, the groups tighten significantly. Also, you can shoot this without lifting your head. You will not hit your face with the bolt. Great vid, I enjoyed it.
Edit to add: you got about the same moa as I get with mine. I shot just over 5” at 400 meters using 142 gr Accubond Long Range loaded to the same velocity as the m/94-41 ammo, also using blank pull-down brass.
my m/41 clone, and ZF39 scoped m/38 can both do moa more often than not, but yea, it takes some getting used to with those old scopes. Im also hand loading 142gr SMKs.
Well done !!! I was a weapons officer at the Bundeswehr and fixed Small Arms from Walter PP to 20mil Canons 40 Years ago. We had to seroing them on the Range. I never used mechanical mount, except for adjusting new barrels by an optical system. All other seroing were made under the same conditions as in the field. Kind regards from Germany, Rudi 👍
Real life accuracy test is 5 shots within a 10cm circle target at 300m shot from 5 different shooting positions and minimum 20 minutes between shots.
We used this as a unofficial qualifying test for a DM in my Norwegian National guard unit.
In my unit we could use almost whatever rifles we wanted as long as thet were chambered for 7.62NATO.
This was in the 1980'ies-90'ies.
My main rifles at the time was a Tikka M55 with hammerforged Kongsberg match barrel/laminated wood stock and a sivilian FN M98 Mauser with a Kongsberg match barrel and McMillan HTG stock. Both rifles had military S&B-scopes (pre PM2)
Regarding pure accuracy at the time, notthing could touch the Steyr SSG69 if evaluating a batch of 100 rifles with consecutive serial numbers produiced on an "industrial" production line. The barreld action of an SSG69 had to print the first 10 shot fired from a machine rest in a group of less than 10cm@300m or the barreled action was rejected.
My father, who was an industrial systems control engineer, had two rifles with two-groove O3 barrels. One was a 1903-A3 he had, regrettably, sporterized. Nothing drastic, just removed some of the mounting hardware so it could be glass bedded into a Monty-carlo style stock to free float the barrel. The other is a refurbished M1 Garand, built off of a Winchester receiver. Apparently the barrel was made from a two-groove 03 barrel mated to the Garand barrel extension. Both rifles are ridiculously accurate. My brother has the 1903 and I have the Garand. I haven't shot any other 03-A3 rifles to know, but my father swore by the accuracy potential in the two-groove barrels. From what I understand from talking to my father, free-floating the barrels on mil-surplus bolt-action rifles greatly improves their accuracy. Another thing he would do is slug the bore, usually with molten sulfur, to get a true bore measurement so that he could get the correct bullet diameter. Then he'd reload until he found the preferred blend for the specific rifle. Mil-Surplus, even match grade, are still subject to mil-spec tolerance systems of QC. The bores may not be consistent, depending on the frequency the rifling bits were changed out. War-time production models will also suffer from fitment issues due to quantity sometimes beating quality. Slugging the bore is the only way to know exactly what your bore diameter is and the true twist rate. If you do not know that for certain, your estimated calculations based on "what it should be" will be inaccurate.
As a statistician, I find an n=3 laughable. n=10 is a respectable sample size. I would be interested to know what the Standard Error was for these groups. It's an indicator of the reproducibility of the entire system, from the shooter through the weapon system to the ammunition.
I prefer N=1, or at a stretch 2, makes stdev and slope extractions so much easier. Hint: zap data points not behaving !
Been arguing this forever and thats why I'm with Henry on the n=9. It's just more statistically relevant. I chrono 15 shots for my final chrono after workups. Just seems like a healthy # of datapoints than 3 or 5 (which is fine when doing the search portion of workups) to have a better understanding of the ES and SD and consistency of that loading.
Same for groupings. Variables can throw a n=3 into skewed results. More datapoints in repeated sets gives you a much clearer picture.
People don't want to hear that though because it often gives them results they don't want. As we say in gaming spaces: skill issue. Seriously, shooting skills, ammunition consistency, is the weapon even put together correctly to get the best results? 😅
I agree, using 3 round groups isn't accuracy testing, its gambling.
Great video and super impressed with the Hk.. For this I created a drinking game, for everytime I hear Henry say "PPU Ball Ammo".. I take a drink.. I was asked not to return to work today..
you're welcome.
I will say, the HK SL8 having .4 MOA at 100 yds is impressive
I wish they would make a practical accuracy video for the SL8.
I wish I kept my sl8. Was a sick space gat.
I have been amazed by the sl8- the things stacked with plastic parts (trigger, optics rail) and not the best ergo with the thumbhole but- the things got it.
Excellent comment at the end and absolutely correct!
My Grandfather was a competition shooter who started me out learning to shoot when I was 8 years old on a .22LR. He was a stickler for learning the basics and making me adhere to them with every shot. By the time I was 10 years old he introduced me to a WWII 03 with long range open sights that he bought from an ad in the back of a magazine. Many times, as a result of my initial training I shot 7/8 inch groups (5 shot groups) at 100 yards. This all came in handy when I went into the military during Vietnam.
0:44 General Kenobi....
A person of culture! 👏
Barrels are heating up and creating small pressure spots against wood and barrel bands. (Groups opening and moving). Wood heats up and will become more/less malleable too. Free float is big game changer honestly
This is why I love you. Dispelling the MOA myth while proving 2-3 MOA guns can do phenomenal work.
So all the sub MOA AR's on TH-cam are fake news? Is that what you're telling me? That the shooters lied and played tricks? Because there are plenty of examples of out of the box stock AR's posting 5 shot groupings not only MOA but we'll below it. Nearly 1/2" MOA. Including Geissele Super Duty rifles that they claim are not MOA rifles. Granted 3 shot groupings isn't enough to see what the true accuracy is but does it need 10? What standards should we be accepting here because I personally believe 5 is enough and 10 is too much. With 10 there is too much chance of human error involved. We are trying to see what the rifle will do. Not the shooter.
Ghaaaaaay!!!!
I'll take the Swede all day, everyday. I just love the 6.5x55mm cartridge!!! My "Swede" is a bubba-ed (before I got it) Husqvarna 38 with a Redfield 6x40mm scope. I get 1.5 MOA with factory Federal 140gr. My go to hunter. It still has the factory full length barrel on it.
having shot the swedish m41b in competition at 1000 yards and spent several years developing loads I can 100% say that heat built up under the handguard and made your grouping larger. firing a single shot and waiting a bit like in a competition when the rest of the line must shoot before coming back around will shrink it a bit, also get rid of your reloaded blank brass and get lapua brass the Swedish Mauser is a bit finnicky on accuracy with neck tension. Lapua brass gives me the best results. I also have found different powders will change group size depending on ambient temp and humidity both when loading and when shooting.
I do have lapua and norma for the nice loadings, but with the blank brass (and I neck size them all to address the neck tension), I am trying to duplicate the M/41 prick load, which it does quite well.
I'm developing a load with N555 and 139 Scenar. It's a bit lower velocity than the RS70 I was using, but the SD is 1.0 m/s.
There is simply nothing better than the ol 6.5 Swede, hard to believe but in spite of it being one of the first rimless battle rounds and around 130 years old it is still as relevant and useful today as it's ever been. In fact due to the creedmore craze and resultant components it really takes it to the next level....
Well there is something better than 6.5 Swede, and that's 6.5 Creedmore. It's only marginally better though. And that is probably what makes 6.5 Sweede so much more impressive. 130 years of development, and "all we got for the update" was a 7mm shorter case, 1,100 PSI more chamber pressure, the exact same projectile and 18% less bullet drop at 1000 yards. Imagine if everything else had also only improved 18% in 130 years.....
Point of intrest.. The Swedish long distance shooting competitors more often use 6.5x55 then 6.5 cd. That is where the Sauer STR 200 really shines
@@andersjjensen😊 You nailed it.
I use both, Swede in bolt action and CM in semi-autos. I load the Swede a bit hot, 139 Lapua Scenar at about 860m/s(2820) with a shortish 20" barrel for long-range (out to about 1400m). But that Swedish Lapua factory ammunition is amazing, just about always in a single hole, but it's much lighter loaded, only giving me about 750/2460, which doesn't help for really long range.
@@andersjjensen Creedmore? nah it's like a tiny stumpy Swede.
My M41/b holds sub 1.75 MOA using surplus m/41 "prickskytte" ammo on most days, if I do my job right. I was lucky and purchased 8 battle packs of the stuff years and years ago and still have lots for use with my various M94 and M96 rifles. With commercial ammo, the groups open to 2.5 MOA still very respectable.
Love seeing the 6.5x55 out there. Would love to see how a custom buiild based on an old mauser performs
I love that the m/41 Carl Gustaf is derived from the m/96 Mauser Sweden first bought from Germany and later manufactured in Sweden under license. Still I´ve seen people here on youtube sharpshooting the m/96 with just the iron sights at over 500 yards!
Yes sir! I shoot my m96 (1910) iron sighted out to 600 yards.
@@TheSaintsAdvantage The best sniper in the world, at least according to me, was the Finnish soldier Simo Häyhä . He used Sako Mosin-Nagant M/28-30 ”Pystykorva” and never used a scope.
The HK93 was killing it with 55 gr ball! I have had very similar results with vintage sniper rifles also. Thank you for your take on this subject and the work on this video is appreciated.
I have been eagerly waiting for this video since Bloke and Polenar first announced the challenge. Great video.
Great video, thanks!
Also, nice to find some other fan of the 6.5x55 Swedish out there.
It is a great cartridge, that can do all 6.5CM can do at lower chamber pressures and perhaps thrice the barrel life.
I have an Husqvarna m38 in 6.5x55 that shoots great (installed a 2.5x handgun scope in place of the rear sight as lately I find it difficult to shoot more than a very few shots with open iron sights) and then a Sabatti Tactical in 6.5x55 with multi radial rifling. That's definitely an all-day long sub moa rifle. With Lapua Open Tip Match 123 grains proved to be a sub-0.5 MOA... they are shockingly expensive, though.
The only AR pattern rifle I've handled that was 1 moa was a bushmaster (Windham, ME) varminter with hand loads using Barnes burners with a max load of varget. It was probably a ten pound rifle esp. with a 24 power Nikon scope.
There are quite a few. The early DPMS varmint 1-14 twist 223 uppers will. So will the Olympic Arms Winchester Super short uppers. And of course, all of the Les Baer Ar platform uppers and rifles. Probably many others but those are the three I have experience with. Heck the Les Baer will out shoot the best of the Remington Bolt guns that don’t say 40x on the side. Course running a 3” flat plate on the forend in an actual rest and using wind flags helps with seeing how the gun actually shoots instead of what a shooter thinks he can do. 👍🏼
1 MADL challenge is a great exercise even if you know you won't get 1MOA. My X95 produced 2.5MOA with M193 and I was actually quite pleased. If I can find some suitable match ammo (annoyingly rare in Canada) I'm looking forward to giving it another attempt. Thanks for giving this insight on what was considered sniper-grade accuracy by past militaries! I'm sure it dispelled a lot of myths and shut a lot of people up haha
Great caveat - rifles are traditionally shot by people, not sleds. Shocking, I know.
It has been a fun excersise.Im doing it with all my rifles.
Your closing reminds me of the classic line from an old Western, 'The Guns of Will Sonnet':
"No brag, just fact".
Thanks for a awesomely instructive video.
I'm glad that you pointed out that 1 moa is an arbitrary number. For those of us who grew up with wood stocked sporter rifles of the 1970s, 2 - 2.5" groupings at 100 yards was a fine hunting rifle. Non-bedded wood stocks are very suseptible to heat and humidity. Parallax and mirage were the shooters limitations with even very good glass on the NRA 100-yard course of fire. Therefore, pride in one's firearms always needs to be tempered with a heavy dose of reality. Many of these and other rifles would be great game rifles!
Im a USMC Vet, Gunsmith, and 07 FFL. While I would argue to truly test the mechanical accuracy and ballistic dispersion of a rifle you should probably shoot it from a sled and hand load to that given rifle to show its true potential. Or at least use a range of ammunition. That being said if you're able to shoulder it and shoot Sub moa obviously the rifle's more than capable.
The premise of the video is actually something I've wondered about quite a bit so thank you for making it.
And your completely right about calling out all of the American companies with sub MOA guarantees. Some of them do have good practices with their guarantees. That being said most use tests like you alluded to. Which is sad because even some high dollar AR's are capable sub MOA out of the box. Such as us arms core or some gieslee and JP rifles.
And finally moa is not arbitrary. It has a definitive measurement and a true number. For example at 100 yd it's approximately 1.049 in. But you are completely right in the fact that most Americans treat it very arbitrarily. And follow a lot of the practices you discussed such as eliminating flyers or only shooting three shot groupings. All in all a good video with the great premise thank you for making it
If you were using the wood stock rifles with the sling, I could understand the change of shot impacts. Sling tension with the barrel not floated can change the impacts or group size. Barrel healing or a scope issue may be more of the change.
Henry giving huge Asian unc energy with the flip flops
Ha- ha. As long as I only shoot ONE round, I can shoot sub MOA.
You have to love marketing people. "Let's shoot a 100 3 round groups and only use one of them"
Amazing when I go to the range and watch everybody shoot their rifle from the bench, and proclaim how great their marksmanship is.
You’re awesome Henry, I love your videos!😊
thanks man, you know how to make a man blush
i share your appreciation for the classics, but can't help feeling you unintentionally handicap the Swedes. They're so easy to shoot well, they can make you get lazy.
What happened to the 'all day' part? Give Josh 100 rounds and let him hi-speed lo-drag tactically mag dump it in 10 min...you take 8 hours with your 100. You'll win.
How in the heck does your channel have only 500k subscribers? By now, after years of amazing content, clear explanations and wonderful topics, how are there less than a million?
Something isn't right about that.
Well , just an observation, but........ This channel tends to lean into fact based data, no political spin, and shooting. Seems that most 'gun tube' types are not interested in that sort of thing.
Honestly the content can be boring, sometimes I throw it on to sleep. Definitely good info in them, but boring nonetheless.
I'm at the beginning of the video while writing this so I don't know what the results will be. That said, I've been a fan of the 6.5x55 cartridge since the early/mid-90's. Back when M96 Swedes were $79 and my AG42B cost me an outrageous $275!
I wish I bought hundreds of thousands of rounds of Swedish military 6.5x55 ball ammo. Non-corrosive and match grade accuracy. Im down to my last 60 rounds of that ammo now.
In regards to the sweedish sniper rifle, I remember when I was a kid my dad would take us to the local gun store a good condition sweed cost 8$ to 12$. An excellent sweed , non issue was 16$ to 24$ , I should have had my dad buy me a # of rifles then worked them off. Also my dad offered to buy some unused Thompsons they were under 250$ but that was a lot of money then.
That is outrageous. I don't even want to think about what these rifles were sold for when they were originally surplused.
@@JH-lo9ut pocket change, there was more than a million of them in mobilisation stockpiles when they were replaced with H&K G3A3s during the cold war. Enough to arm over 10% of the total Swedish population at the time.
Fun fact, the m/96 mauser cavalry carbine will likely stay in Swedish army service past the G3 (ak4)and the FN FNC(ak5) as the 6.5mm Mauser carbines are used by the semi-ceremonial Royal Lifeguards on horse! (Dressed and armed in late 19th century dragoon fashion)
I tell my NRA Basic Rifle students that rifle shooting is a statistical exercise. One shot tells them very little, ten shots is far more significant. Practice improves performance, your checkbook doesn't improve your skill.
How has the algorithm not fed me this channel until now? Subbed. Absolutely perfect blend of information and dry humor.
A thought on the M1903 A4 Sniper point of impact change after magazine reload: the shooter is a part of the system. As others pointed out, lead sleds have a different poi than bags, the reason is barrel harmonics and dwell time.
The shooter has to grip with the same tension every shot-not easy-or the system varies.
Try this: 5 shots free recoil (let the rifle jump), 5 normal tension w bags, 5 gorilla grip into shoulder as hard as possible, and 5 in a sled or bipod.
All will have different poi due to varying barrel position when round leaves, due to harmonics and dwell time changed by pressure on the stock. Also, Clean out that bolt! Seriously, if the firing pin is dragging it will affect poi. Sbooter is just an analog damper with poor feedback. A well tuned rifle will not be as affected by the shooter grip.
22lr will really show this due to light weight.
Great guns and excellent content!
It may not be an issue with the 6.5x55, but I have always avoided converting blank ammo into live ammo due to quality control concerns regarding manufacturing techniques and tolerances of the brass.
Good epidode! I've spent a day with more than one of these rifles at my Rifle and Pistol club. My father's induction date into the USMC was January 28, 1942. He went to Boot camp at Paris Island abd used the Springfield 03A3 rifle throughout. He always said that he liked it more than any other rifles he used in WW2. Altogether he made 4 landings in the Cenrtral Pacific. First on Roi-Namur in the Marshalls, then Saipan and Tinian in the Marianas. Finally his last landing was on landing was on Iwo Jima. He never used the 03A3 in combat. Just FYI, knowing Henry is a Marine is one of the main things I got from my dad about his WW2 experiences was that for him Saipan was worse than Iwo Jima was, even though most Marines may feel very differently. It all comes down where and when you were. Back to modern times, I used to own a PTR91 with a Bill Springfield trigger. I found that it helped me quite a bit with the accuracy right out of the box. I was using a 4x Hensoldt w/Stanag mount of course. I think Hensoldt was one of the companies that produced military scopes company made the Carl Zeiss. They need no introduction to German WW2 and/or Cold War german riflescope users like you guys. Loved the rifle, fit and finish was actually better than the HK91 was. I just hated cleaning the rifle. I admit that I really cleaned it much more throughly than I had to or should've bothered to. I shot the Mauser 41B rifle aa couple of times. Old German Zeiss optics on top of Swedish steel. Even after 70 years the glass is so bright it's incredibe. It was a superior bolt rifle for its time, for sure. Sorry about the rambling people.
1 MOA says everyone but in reality 2-3 MOA .
How many guys have claimed their SKS or AKM is sub MOA? Even TH-camrs, showing you their 6 inch, 3 shot group, will say it's 2 inches. I scream that each square on that target is 1X1 inch! There are 4 squares between each impact!
@@donwyoming1936 Whenever I see youtubers doing accuracy tests for rifles that are marketed as being accurate/precise and the youtuber immediately starts discounting rounds as "flyers" it makes me think they're shilling a lil bit. Unless they specifically say on camera "I pulled that one" and even say WHERE they pulled it to I just don't believe them. I say this cuz when I'm shooting groups when I pull a round I can tell where I pulled it to assuming the rifle was shooting pretty decent to begin with.
@@donwyoming1936 I actually have shot a .90 5 shot group at 100 yards with my Zastava m90. Maybe I should record it sometime. It was already a accurate rifle and shot well before I changed out the furniture, I think one thing that really helped was the TDI aluminum handguard, it had to be hand filed and hammered in with rubber mallet to fit, so there is no slop what so ever in the front of the rifle and think this tight fit really helped the accuracy despite not being free floated. Have seen similar effects with Zentico. I have a really hard time believing a 7.62x39 rifle could shoot that well though.
Luck is a factor for some small groups. I've seen sub-moa 3-5 shot groups from crappy guns using crappy ammo, but they aren't repeatable.
With the enormous amount of luck one can achieve a 1 moa group from 3 moa system, but it doesn't make it 1 moa.
Sidenote: that's why in Russian military accuracy test are done with groups of 10 shots. It's impossible to get a tight group purely because of luck
30 rounds should really be the metric for semi-auto rifles.
New to ur channel and I enjoy it. My fav video is the pdw history vid. Another great video idea, the transition to semi autos from bolt action
Seeing that barrel heating creates POI shift, should you consider?
1: Time taken to shoot 10rd group
2: Ambient temperature
It's so funny that you addressed this at the end, since I was already assuming something like this when the SSG3000 was mentioned as one of the rifles being tested.
And I wouldn't doubt your marksmanship skills given that I have been following this channel for a while now.
Though I gotta say I was surprised on your comments on the shift of the height of impact after shooting a couple of rounds with some of those rifles, since you mentioned you have been shooting them a fair bit before this video was made.
A wood-stocked, non-free floating rifle DEFINITELY is affected by barrel heat. It can be minimized by a straight-grained wood and bedding points specifically designed to eliminate the barrel flex, but a hot barrel will nearly always influence group size. The Bloke on the Range can confirm this effect with the K31 Swiss rifle. Most of these are very accurate, but a slight warp in a warming stock is particularly noticeable in individual rifles.
I'm not a shooting or car expert, but the 1 MOA thing seems like the equivalent of a car's 0-60 speed: a not particularly important statistic that makes it easier for owners and marketers to brag about their product.
If you gotta turn into the highway everytime u leave the house… 0-60 might be important😂
In my experience, ammo is the crucial crux of accuracy
ammo and a consistent point of aim. Shooting bags are really helpful.
Good ammo won't work well in a rubbishy rifle with a crappy optic on an unstable platform with a rubbish shooter lol. It's got to be decent all round
It's a combination of factors. 1 MOA is kinda a US standard for an accurate ammo/rifle combination. I think that is overrated for most applications, especially at unknow distances, wind/rain, different altitudes and target elevations, etc. Sometimes it's all about minute of man, either you hit or you don't and that's up to the guy behind the rifle.
Well made barrel helps alot to and like you said ammo having ammo that is constantly consistent is important that's why I handload my own ammo for long range shooting comp
Crap ammo can ruin a good rifle, but the finest craft ammo, only loaded when the moon is full and the humidity is exactly 50% at an air pressure of 101.3 MPa, can't improve a clapped out rifle. It can only show you, very accurately, how clapped out it is.
When i served in the youth home guard, we had this rifle until we turned 16 and were allowed to use automatic weapons (swedish k, AK4).
So, that's the rifle i learned to shoot with.
Same😊
barrel heating effecting POI is definitely something I've noticed on guns like the Lee Enfield where the forearm is in contact with the barrel and if that contact isn't in the prescribed place some wild and group enlarging shifts happen on 10 shot rapid fire groups. If it's on point the shift still happens but only in one plane instead of both.
I know its hard to find but the WA 2000 needs to get featured on this channel.
If Henry does, i guess it's gonna be the Porsche of the channel till the end.
@@juliannestingray5948well yeah it's literally a priceless firearm, it was already around 16k when it was made in the 80s, add inflation to that and you already have the base price of a lot of popular transferable machineguns and that's just what the original owner paid for it back in the day, now theres only a few dozen of them around at most and lots of people want them.
In 300 wm
Let’s make it a double and throw in a psg1
I have to admit that shooting actual groups and comparing the results is an interesting experiment, we know the guns can "hit" at great distances but not really what their mechanical accuracy capabilities are, particularly when dealing with older rifles past their prime.
The M96 Mauser is 1MOA as long the barrel is cold. The rifle has a rather light profile barrel - it heats up pretty fast and the groups are starting to grow. My Swedish M96 mauser is 2 MOA with handloaded match ammunition - 10 shots of course
I was amazed when I owned a $125 Surplus Swedish M96, we were at a square range with a metal deer target, that the range master said was a quarter mile away, around 775 yards. We lased it and it was "only" 675 yards, From a sandbag rest, the flying pencil bullets would ring that target all day long 4 out of 10 shots on average with the issued blade sights. Awesome rifle and caliber.
I really need to test this during the winter when we can cool the rifle faster. Right now it is absolutely the worst time to cool rifles in SE Texas!
Noticing a DISTINCT lack of Lee Enfield SMLE mk2 model (T). AND FR F2, Henry.... what happened to those guns, Henry? I need to know Henry.
ughhhhhh i know. they'll come in the picture at some point.
@@9HoleReviews haha can't wait!
The "Smelly" is around 2 MOA on a good day, plenty accurate for combat ranges that the cartridge is capable of engaging.
We need to see the K31 in action as well.
What was the length of the rifle range at Bisley in the Uk and the distance that the 303s were reaching
My 41b Swede does really well with hornady ELD-M 147 grain projectiles over VV 560. Pushed the seat to 1 hundredth off the rifling
From Sweden. In northern parts of Sweden where moose are usually shot at large distances the 6.5x55 is still popular. Also preferred for treetop sitting birds. In the south 308W, 30-06 and 8x57 is more popular due to bigger impact energy. My German Heym 308 came with a certificate showing 3 shot within 1 MOA. Done with iron sights and ordinary hunting ammo (Norma Alaska). Never managed to achieve it with scope and match cartridges. Done it with Alaska. So rifles might be optimized for different ammo.
You are correct. Fundamental marksmanship skills and your knowledge of your rifle are what makes a skilled marksmen.
I own a 1903A4 an original Mosin sniper rife I had a lee Enfield with original T-32 Scope and a 98K with the Zf39 scope. The 1903A4 rifle barrel shot best but the Lee Enfield did best overthe 400 yrs mark because the T-32 scope was better than the others. My Zf39 won't hold zone past 8 or 10 shots it has an issue of some kind.
I used to stress out that I couldn't get "1 MOA all day long" from most of my rifles, and these days I'm much more relaxed about it. I have probably only one that will do it, and that's a custom match rifle. I also had an HK93 once and I miss it :(
Under 10 pounds is such a weird requirement. A battle rifle is accessories will be over 10lb, heck an M4 with a normal amount of stuff will be over 10lb especially the SOCOM barrel models.
Was breaking in my new 6GT barrel on my AI AT, all 15 shots with cleanings every 5 rounds was just inside 1 MOA. Dayyyum.
I'm not going to argue about the M41b being the best sniper rifle of WW2 or not, but I want to add that it's not very strange that it was. The Mauser was already a solid rifle design, and the Swedish ones were apparently of excellent quality. The sniper rifles were then selected from rifles that was tested to be extra accurate, and then I believe slightly improved further and fitted with optics etc.
We swedes did however have the luxury of not getting involved in the war so while the sniper rifles were still important to have and probably as soon as possible, there was no extra pressure to get rifles out to the front line or such. My point is simply that good materials, excellent gunsmiths and time to do it properly, apparently a good sniper rifle makes. :)
Thanks for the video!
great reload btw, I noticed that...chillin like a villain with that brass
It would be neat to see a video SASS rifles. A comparison of Armalite, Knight’s Armalite, HK and a SCAR.
Thanks for posting this truth burger on TH-cam, Henry!
BTW that’s a smashing Omega Peter Blake Seamaster you’re sporting!
What is this "Marksmanship" thing? Is it some ancient art lost in the annuals of time like greek fire? Some might claim it is a myth like Atlantis. The world wonders.
Most people are full of it when it comes to group size.
Fitting that you wore a Norwegian uniform shirt while shooting the SSG 3000, The STR 200 which is esentially the same thing is the staple of the Norwegian target shooting community.
Absolutely wonderful video, Henry!
It would be an interesting experiment to shoot your M/41b at a slower rate of fire and see if effected group size. (say 30 sec per shot) I bet there is a sweet spot vis a vis barrel heating vs group size.
To get one MOA or near one MOA all day long, you need a good rifle tweaked for maximum accuracy and custom hand-loads. A lot of snipers used ammunition customized to and for that rifle.
I have the longer M96 Swede and i love it, i don't usually shoot 10 shot groups but it is very close to 1MOA the first 3-5. For it's age i'll take it, plenty accurate enough for hunting deer. And such a low recoiling round for the amount of energy it delivers.
Great marksmanship on display as always! Loved the endcab challenge!
I've only met one shooter that consistently shoots under 1MOA at 300+ meters with a .308. That would be my older brother, who only considers his rifle properly dialed in when he can saw two pieces of vertical rebar in half with two rounds each at 300m. It's actually kind of awe inspiring to watch.
Henry "Bird watching" with the M24!!😂 I'm dead!💀
I will always remember the swedish Mauser marksman who in the 70’s manage to shoot 5 bullets at 300 m with all the bullets within a matchbox cirkle. 😮
Beer can bottom MOA at long field distance is enough for the arma 3 resistance.
I just wish you had the WA2000 there. I'd love to see the grouping that one gives.
Darn it, this was super interesting, now I want to see the same thing with modern sniper rifles.
And where did you hide the funny Italian guy with the pants up to his bellybutton? It is hilarious to see your social interactions when you are bickering 😄
Great content as always 👌
I know a guy who has a SIGNED BY THE RANGE MASTER target from the old Los Angeles outdoor shooting range which shows three shots in one hole at 100yards fired from an open "Buckhorn" iron sighted "Uberti" - metallurgically and dimensionally exact copy of Kit Carson's .53 cal black powder Hawken- styled rifle residing in a museum in I *think* Taos, New Mexico. Carson was clearly a 'sniper' of both game, AND Native American's during the Indian Wars over what, 175 or so years ago? Soooo, would that make his rifle "Vintage";)
Try 52gr SMK over some stick powder like RE-15 in that HK. Shoots great in 1:12 barrels.
My expert shooting went right out the door with my eyesight as I got older. Thanks for the video.
Thanks for this. One of my favorite things is training with a sniper rifles, and I have several
Ricky from IBM
Thank you again , for bringing to mind the " One MOA all day Long ." I was one of those 3 or 5 shoot MOA persons , who thought , that was all that was needed for proof of continued accuracy " all day long."
I think a big part of the 1 MOA all day trope is that people have no idea what the necessary accuracy for a combat rifle is. If your rifle can actually print 2 MOA consistently, then you are going to be making a 10-inch group at 500M. At that distance, even moderate wind will have a stronger effect on the impact of your round than the rifle's inherent accuracy. With a 77gr Sierra Match King with a 2720 fps muzzle velocity, you will experience 27.9 inches of wind drift, almost 3 times the dispersion of the actual rifle. Furthermore, 500M is further than you will often be able to detect, identify and range targets for most hunting/tactical purposes. If you don't have the experience and skill to deal with wind at that range and more, it doesn't matter if your rifle is .5 MOA. You won't hit the target anyway.
Thanks for the video Henry.
I am from germany and all shooters over here got at least a M96 called "Schweden Mauser" or a K98 Kar. Both barrels get pretty quick very hot so after 10 rapid shoots,
the grouping will get bigger. Use an M39 instead :P. The finnish barrels were way thicker and free floated too. I love my two M39s. Its missing here obviously...who was the most famous sniper in WWII...?😉
after seeing that Giesselle, you HAVE to do a Larue now since they have that rivalry.
2 MOA was about average for my m/41b using Swedish (sniper) 6,5 mm sk ptr m/94 prj m/41 PRICK
1st. Time viewing of your video site and now a regular subscriber. Enjoyed the detailed professional explanations of each individual rifles . Also , not having loud grating ghetto music during the presentation. Looking forward to the next video.
Bloke's challenge specifically allows two shots to warm the barrel before you shoot the group of 10. That would have got the second group for the sniper rifle under 1 MOA.
Fantastic, really enjoyed ❤
I wonder if the 2 seemingly distinct groupings had something to do with you reloading and having a slightly different eye placement behind the vintage optic. I would like to see this comparison again with more modern and closer to equal sighting systems on each rifle - or the same system if at all possible.
For a deer hunting rifle where one is not likely to shoot a lot, I can see a few, cold bore 3-shot groups. For hogs, prairie dogs etc. where the volume of fire is higher, sure, a 10-30+ shot group might be what’s needed to take in additional factors such as barrels heating up, fouling etc. Then we take in to consideration SD & ES of the ammunition and the shooter’s ability to remain calm and consistent while firing long string groups.
The PPU was impressive, but the SD & ES is not too likely to rear its ugly head until it’s pressed out further, but not so far as to be effected by wind, drop in velocity etc.
Good Sir, I applaud the fact that you did not use a mechanical rest for your evaluation of these rifles. I also respect that you did not "cherry pick" the groups that you portrayed. My only real issue is that you chose to employ 10-shot groups for your experiment. As you well know, the point of aim can shift significantly as the barrel heats. Had you fired fewer shots, or allowed more time for the barrel to cool, the groups for all rifles would likely have been tighter. In any case, thank you for your efforts in producing a fine video.