Why Miguel O’Hara Is A Perfect Antagonist (A Character Study)
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 22 พ.ย. 2024
- #acrossthespiderverse
Spider-Man 2099, or Miguel O'Hara, was my favorite character from Across the Spider-verse, and I wanted to show you all why he is so effective as an antagonist. Hope you enjoy the video, and have a great day!
Business email: b00itsghosttoast@gmail.com
Music: Jungle Adventure (Mario Party 64)
![ลองสุ่มไอโฟน 990 โกงมั้ย? [ โกงมั้ยครับ ep.101 ] | DOM](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/bfsWe0j492k/mqdefault.jpg)
I really hate that some people are vilifying Miguel because they hate anyone going against Miles, and Hobie. Going as far as to say he’s a liar or unreasonable, when he’s doing what is completely necessary with the information he has. Him letting Miles do what he wants risks an entire universe of people dying, and I’m surprised that people are upset at him for not letting him experiment with countless lives because he wants to save one person.
He is unreasonable though
@@soraisfinallyhere1305 Trying to prevent millions from dying is unreasonable?
@Exilefromtomorrow being motivated by grief is exactly why i love him, and i hate how none of my friends agree with me. it shows him off as truly human. he may be in charge, but hes not some super genius that has everything under control. hes a broken man, trying desperately to stop other people from making the same mistake he made, and his emotions blind him sometimes. he's a mess, in a good way. i personally believe that his grief is what is causing him to butt heads with miles so hard, because if there's even a miniscule chance miles could cause his universe to collapse, he is going to do his best to stop him. hes paranoid, aggressive, and unwell, and thats what makes him compelling to me
He's convinced by predictive models and insists everyone else abides them as well through brute force. Sounds familiar?
Lmao no he’s a fascist. He’s insanely wrong about a lot of things and is purely driven by his past. Multiple Spider-Man are allowed to exist in the same world, captain’s can be save and not everything is set. Miles in completely right in saying that we shouldn’t listen to some BS algorithm.
He's lawful good, Miles is neutral good, and Hobie is chaotic good. Miguel is also like Stark, cursed with knowledge having obliterated a universe himself.
i wouldnt say knowledge, i think miguel is bullshitting
the canon events dont make sense and its more like a trauma dump
@@spookbag24 Idk about that, Peter B was also present with Miguel when that universe collapsed
Hobie is Chaotic Neutral.
@@Gamfluent if miles is an anomaly, the original anomaly then why does he still have canon events
also shouldn't getting BITTEN be a canon event? why is earth 42 universe not broken because without getting bitten, none of the canon events happen therefore it shouldn't be there
pavitr's universe isnt even broken either, all the team needs to do is show up with those little machines and everything is fine
@@spookbag24eah we as the viewers basically have the full context of the situation. Miguel is clearly riddled with trauma and is not taking any chances, it’s what makes him a good antagonist he isn’t wrong to do the things he is doing considering that the consequence of failure is the lives of trillions and the limited amount of info he has access to
I feel Miguel isn't exactly the most powerful spider man but instead is the most offensive spider man with most of his abilities playing into that role: He lacks the spider sense, he cannot stick to walls so he scales them with claws, he uses energy based "webs" instead of the immobilising and sticky webs, he uses blades on his arms instead of just his fists, and he got the big chomp that we never properly saw. Its clearly demonstrated in his introduction that he is powerful after he tackles vulture through a wall, but immediately after he gets caught off guard, in the same fight he falls and just tanks several walls until the ground stops his fall and just emerges from the rubble unscathed and we see this quality when he fights Miles where he tanks hits instead of dodging and overpowering instead of outsmarting or outmanoeuvring. It's probably one of the reasons why he fails in catching Miles, he keeps getting hit and even though he does manage to pin him down, he can't really capitalise on it because (aside from his bite) his moveset is more build to wearing down his enemies with aggression and power over dodging and capturing. When he gets hit with something he can't tank he is vulnerable and it takes him a while to regain his footing and when Miles tries to escape to dimension 42 Miguel is unable to stop him because he is faced with a barrier he cannot possible outmatch he fails.
This is a really detailed and accurate description of Miguel’s abilities and fighting style. I am impressed and agree with your analysis 👍
That's pretty much it. Even in the comics, Miguel was designed as the "Anti Spider-man". Everything he does is reversed:
No strategy, just brute force
No jokes, just seriousness >:3
No Spider-sense, but accelerated vision.
Well he definitely could’ve capitalized on it, he had him hard pinned down so he could’ve used his claws, bite, or the blades on his arms but he didn’t because plot.
@@gamerman6494be didn't use those abillaties because he didn't wanna kill him not because of the plot
I thought he could climb walls as a normal spiderman? Edge of time lied to me 😭
I like that they made him an antagonist and not a villain. Spot is the villain of this movie, but Miguel fits the antagonistic role. Yes, when a character is a villain, they are an antagonist, but the villain is someone who is usually evil, or as an evil way of doing things.
Let’s put it this way:
“All villians are antagonists, but not all antagonists are villains.”
Miguel is a “good guy,” but since he is actually opposing and is very hostile towards Miles, that makes him an antagonist for Miles. I’m glad this film showed that very well.
Actually not all villains are antagonists.
Walter white is definitely a villain, but he isn't the antagonist, he's literally the main character.
@@wooblydooblygod3857MultifandomEldingArum was talking about “bad guys” on the other end of the villain spectrum, not the protagonist’s. Walter white is who we, the audience, are supposed to be rooting for, an old man who doesn’t get treated right by his colleagues and family. He starts off as just an ordinary protagonist until he breaks multiple laws and becomes a criminal, then the villain (protagonist) nearing the end of the show. Which by that point people could say that Walt is the antagonist and Hank is the protagonist, until Ozymandias, then the roles of protagonist and antagonist, in a way, get flipped back around and we are rooting for Walter to take revenge.
@@tommysalami586 villain and antagonist are separate labels, but often used together.
Not that I mind.
@@wooblydooblygod3857 Guess that’s a simpler way of saying what I said. My point also was that the labels of protagonist and antagonist go hand in hand with the main character in anti hero shows. Like dexter, more so breaking bad for a better example. Since killing isn’t exactly justified like how dexter does it.
disagreed. villians can be protagonists, like light yagami from death note, there isn't a single bad person in the series that takes much screentime, making him the main villian.
The main conflict between Miles and Miguel is so well written because both sides are completely understandable. Miguel doesent want to risk another universe being destroyed for the sake of saving one person. He may not know for sure if it will cause a cannon break but he doesent want to risk billions of lives just to get the rules down. At the same time though imagine someone telling you that your dad has to die in order to protect your universe and there’s nothing you can do about it. Miles believes that Spider-Man would never trade lives which adds more weight to when Miles asks Miguel if he’s sure he’s Spider-Man during the train scene. There isn’t really an easy solution for this situation either since we really don’t know what will happen. All we can do is hope that Miles and the Gwen squad will figure something out in which no one has to die.
Not to mention, Peter B saw Miguel's daughter in that universe to disappear before his very eyes and other Spiderpeople had been with Miguel trying to save the universe. It suddenly makes sense why almost all the Spider Society would side with Miguel because they have seen it before, are seeing it somewhat with Pavitir's dimension and in the risk of seeing it in Miles.
I don't even know what the right thing is anymore.
My favorite part of the movie? When Miles'es new uniform was revealed, everyone disliked the line design. And then when the movie came out, the characters IN the movie made fun of it too.
“What’s with the new suit you bleeding from your armpits?”
@@shagarumedici like peter saying that he’ll make him a new one, basically indirectly saying he doesn’t like it. Good thing is I can see this happening in the next movie due to how scarred up his suit in across got
Idk it lowkey felt to me a little insecure to be honest.
maybe he's gonna get his classical suit the next movie but this time it won't be just spray paint.
I hope he has a web pattern on his mask in the next movie. His mask looks weird without it.
Also notable is thay Miguel got exactly what Kingpin wanted, he succeeded where the previous antagonist failed which ramps things up a bit too.
Nope, Miguel failed too.
Also Miguel didnt cause his family tragedy on his original universe. He did on the second universe which is why he never tried again. Kinpin would have keep ruining families to infinity.
tf you mean succeeded he literally destroyed the universe he wanted 😭
@@oldenough5424 True, he did. It's also interesting to see what would have happened to Kingpin if he got his way.
Anyone who hates Miguel and thinks he’s 100% wrong needs to hear/read: “You go and delete a whole universe by accident just because you wanted to be happy with the ones you loved and lost. Go do that and when you come back tell me if you would let that happen again.”
Well there’s the fact that their situations are completely different Miles wanted to save his dad and Miguel broke canon by taking a Spider-Man’s spot in a universe that wasn’t his. Also there’s the fact that Indian Spider-Man’s universe seems to be intact even though the police chief was saved
@@keandregreen5628I’m 1000% sure that was Spot’s doing
@@MiyaMam948agree the collider not only power up spot but unleash excess dark matter on the building causing the destruction
Brooooo……Miles Is Trying to save his dad…..lmaoooo like What ????? Idc who else is dying I’m trying to save my dad if I knew he was dying in the near future
@@Culley91 It wouldn’t matter if you saved your dad or not you would all still die.
honestly love how you call him an antagonist and not a villain. It's like the Wolf in Puss in Boots, not really a Villain, just a guy doing his job that goes against the protagonist. Miguel isn't exactly in the wrong here, but the way he does what he does is just mean.
In his defense its hard to be nice when the fate of the multiverse hangs in the balance.
The difference between Miguel and Wolf is that Wolf isn’t “just doing his job” if that were the case then he wouldn’t interfere with Puss and he’d just let him die on his own like how he did the other 8 times, that’s his job
What he did in the film was taking it personally and wanting to kill Puss early himself which is not his job, he even gets mad at himself in the end for not killing Puss sooner, even if he never intended on actually killing Puss (which I doubt) scaring Puss and provoking him throughout the film is still not in his job description
Whereas Miguel is actually doing his job in making sure canon events are not interfered with
@@fellowpassenger_54-67
Death’s goal was to make Puss value his life. While Death does admit to enjoying the hunt, there are a few key moments that imply that he would have let Puss live if he had just learned to value his existence.
The biggest support of this is Puss’ time with Mama Luna. He was there for weeks according to Kitty, yet Death - a character who can straight up teleport through space let Puss live. He never continued hunting him down, when he could have easily continued to torture and kill him.
The second moment of support of this is the time in the cave of reflection, specifically Death’s critique of Puss’ treatment of his lives.
“I find the idea of nine lives, absurd. And *you* didn’t value *any of them.*”
Death isn’t pissed at Puss just because he’s a cat, otherwise he’d be slaughtering cats left and right. It’s his blatant mistreatment of the gift he has been given. Puss got lucky being born a cat, yet he didn’t respect life. He treated them as a joke, wasting them. Metaphorically spiting in the face of everyone Death has had to put down, whether by natural causes or otherwise. He’s pissed at Puss for defying the natural order, so in his mind it’s only fair Puss gets the same treatment.
The last moment is indeed the final battle. Death kept Puss’ sword, and offers it back to him. He wants Puss to fight back, not only because it’s fun for him - but because he wants Puss to learn his lesson. Death knows he can’t die, you’d and kill death. Oxymoron aside he’s literally the physical embodiment of the absence of life. By the end of the fight, he’s frustrated yes, but he’s honor bound. He lets Puss live because he no longer believes himself an immortal, someone that’s above life because he was born under lucky circumstances.
“I came here looking for a little legend who thought he was immortal. But I don’t see him anymore”.
Death has no problem breaking the rules, this is the crux of his character. Yet, he is still honorable. He has motives. He is cruel yes, but not just in the service of his own hedonistic desires. He is doing what he believes would be a favor to the world.
Adachi together strong
@@goldenaries0860 That still doesn't make it his job. Death is going against his job in the movie.
I couldn’t help but think about what Green Goblin said when thinking of Miguel. “You’re struggling to have everything you want. While the world makes you choose.”
Anyone who clicked on this video to watch this character study was a canon event.
And now, I'm afraid to switch to something else, or my Universe will be destroyed.
Hey siri!, how do you change a cannon event?
Truth 🤣😔
This comment was a canon event
Me watching spideverse in theaters was a canon event
I need miles getting chased by both Prowler miles and Miguel at the same time with both of their themes playing
Both of those themes are a bop 🔥
that would be awesome.
Oh my god, YES!
YES YES YES DANIEL PEMBERTON BETTER MAKE IT HAPPEN
The second miguel showed up, i and the people I was watching the movie with IMMEDIATELY thought he was the coolest dude ever lmao. And as someone who is very much on the miles side of things (emotional, feelings over logic, etc.) i still have trouble disagreeing with miguel on the whole “let ur dad die!!” thing. He’s a super compelling and realistic character, and I can’t wait to see more of him in the third movie. Great video btw, really explains what makes miguel so awesome super well!
I think that all it would take for him to change his mind in the next movie is for Miles or someone else to provide a logical counterargument, since emotional arguments just don't work on him. Saying "but it's the wrong thing to do" fails since Miguel already understands that but puts it at a lesser priority to his motive of saving the crowd, however something like "what if canon events only break when a Spiderman from a different universe interferes, I can stop the event and nothing bad would happen" would work since it lines up with Miguel's existing understanding of canon events, just as a different hypothesis about what the causes of breaks really is.
Miguel isn't trying to say "let you dad die", he's saying "it's either 1 or everyone", like do you people understand every single person also has family and that saving his dad would be pointless as by what Miguel's logic stands for his dad also would die in the process?
@@tau-5794 the thing is, there is no argument to be made, Miguel and many more saw it first hand.
He is the one that caused it in the first place, Earth-42 literally collapsed because it doesn't have a Spider-Man, and it wasn't even just him who saw it so it's not just him that knows what would happen.
@jellymatsuryuka685 Miguel calls miles an anomaly when Miguel is one to as he broke the Canon first plus miles didn't ask to be bitten by that spider it just happened
@@No1shigeokageyamafan Miguel broke a canon, Miles wasn't even supposed to exist as Spider-Man, there's a very big difference.
Plot twist he was drunk the whole time, Irish genes took over
😂 that would explain a lot lol
And his Mexican side is in denial of this-
An important thing to point out is that villains are not always antagonists, villains can be main characters too. If a villain is the protagonist of the story, that makes the hero the antagonist since they oppose the main character.
You are absolutely right, it depend on what kind of story is being told
Another parallel between Miguel and Miles is that they are both biracial Latinos, Miguel being Irish and Mexican while Miles is black and Puerto Rican. They also have contrasting family backgrounds. Miles is an only child with loving parents who love him and each other. Miguel was born from an affair, has a brother, an abusive father, and becomes fairly estranged from his family. Miguel might have slight envy of the love Miles is surrounded by.
His mother is terrible too.
And until the recon, they both had family members who were villains.
Spiderman 2099 has been my #1 favorite Spiderman for a long time now, and this movie just proved to the entire world how much of an unrelenting badass he is, even with him in the light of being an antagonist
It stuck with me that miguel once believed what miles believes and did his best to change a cannon event already. So not only do they have the same struggle but chose different options, miles is fighting the concequences if his actions in a way
Miguel was my favorite character in this movie. His story was tragic and his motives compelling. I have a prediction that Miguel will realize that when the collider happened it become a canon event BC it rewrote reality and through that a new multiverse branched out where the established canon was forever altered. If the collider event never happened Miguel most likely wouldn’t have created the spider society thus making EVERY Spider-Man there an anomaly including Miguel, at least by his own logic. I think he’s gonna realize that by trying to essentially "fix" this Miles he’ll be breaking canon thus destroying the multiverse.
"as soon as Spiderman 2099 showed up, I instantly fell in love-" me too bro, me too
I think there was a little more to that sentence that you forgot to quote 😂😂
I honestly want to give him a hug so badly😢
Me too
If I had to pick a side, I would say Miguel is justified with his approach in trying to prevent Miles from saving his dad.
Although he is dealing with grief and the consequences of inadvertently destroying a universe, Miguel is still applying a scientific approach in his decision-making, unlike Miles. Let’s not forget from the comics that Miguel is a genius and a scientist. Scientists work with the information they have and form theories based on said information and observation. Since he observed the collapse of a universe after altering its events, he does not want to risk altering the events of other universes since it could lead to the deaths of billions. When people question Miguel on how he is so sure that a universe will collapse, he doesn’t say “Yes, I’m sure!”. Instead, (I know at least once or twice) he responds with “Do you want to find out?” From this, we can infer that he isn’t 100% sure, but he does know there is a catastrophic risk to altering the events. Miles is great, but for him to go entirely against the information presented to him by Miguel is selfish and immature…yet understandable given that it’s his own father who might die.
I 100% expect Miguel’s theory to be disproven in BTSV, but that’s because, again, it’s a theory with limited information. I love Miguel though because he acknowledges the risks at stake following his own experiences. All in all, I know he will accept new information in the next movie because of his scientific background and I’m glad this video fights for why Miguel is only an antagonist to the bright-eyed Miles.
The people who made the 💉💉💉 are said to be genius’s too…science ain’t everything
I loved Miguel O’Hara, hes a super masculine yet broken man who metaphorically has the weight of the entire multiverse on his shoulders
I feel like that’s something that most men can relate with to an extent🥺
🥺
I feel you. I had to send an email this morning.
So that's why he's got shoulder pads that big.
Even though he is broken he is very immature he could barely articulate his words or emotions yo the situation with Miles in a calm manner so he could understand he is the reason why the multiverse is broken but to lash out his anger he self Projects his issues onto miles
@@No1shigeokageyamafan so you mean you wouldn't lose your mind if you knew you're literally the only one competent enough to stop a guy who wants to end existence itself because of a selfish decision?
You wouldn't lose your mind over literally seeing the entire multiverse start to collapse because a guy didn't want to sacrifice one person just so literally everybody else could live?
In my opinion,I think an antagonist could be similar to the protagonist,anyone could be that way whether they're good, morally grey,or downright evil.
Kind of, like an antagonist can be the good guy if the movie is focusing on the villain as the protagonist. It just depends who the main character is and who is against them
That’s exactly what I thought after seeing the movie a second time! I’m interested in writing, and after seeing Miguel as a villain, it made me want to rethink some of my villains in a story I’ve been working on
@@ghosttoast824Good example is Joe Goldberg from Netflix's "You", Joe is absolutely the bad guy but because the story is told from his perspective we see him as the hero and the one we want to root for even though we shouldn't, even his actor and some of the shows cast was a little disturbed at how many people loved Joe considering who he is and what he has done.
The antagonist in storytelling is anyone who directly opposes the protagonist's stance. They can be good, neutral or evil.
In Joker, the police officers that want to question Arthur are antagonists. Murray is also an antagonist. But Arthur is the villain and the protagonist.
Spot in this film isn't an antagonist, he's just a petty villain. He doesn't directly oppose Miles, he's just doing his own thing for his own reasons.
Miguel, unlike Spot, directly opposes Miles' arc and his stance. He's not a villain, but because he tries to stop Miles from completing his arc (writing his own story), Miguel becomes the antagonist.
Case and point, the anime, Overlord. the villain in that IS the protagonist.
Stating that Thanos is an antagonist instead of a villain is wild to me tbh. Sure he has a somewhat compelling motivation, but he quite definitely is cruel and evil underneath.
I think the reason this happens so often is that, as a character, Thanos is someone underwritten. He talks a lot, but we never get a full glimpse of who he is underneath all his rhetoric.
@@rottensquidDidn't he torture his own daughter? Pretty sure we know under all that rhetoric he is a bad person. This is the same person who in the comics did all that nonsense because he was simping for Death after all 😂
@@frizen9328 I mean, yeah, actions speak louder than rhetoric. I feel like the bit in Infinity War where he sacrificed Gamora and it actually worked kinda muddied the issue. The whole premise that the test proved his love for her ended up working against the film as a whole, and left a real bad taste in a lot of people's mouths. I think the intention was to add complexity to the character, but instead, it just made the character, and the rules of the universe, more opaque. One gets the impression that no one involved with writing that scene has ever endured real abuse from their father, or bothered to consult anyone who had. It was taking a serious subject, and treating it shallowly. That's the point where I realized they didn't actually have a real character, just a bunch of vague motivations stuck on a name, that they thought would add up on their own. Thanos was a failed character, to my mind.
@@frizen9328 we see Batman torturing people even harder than that. Even on the kid series from the 90s on one of the first episodes Batman kept throwing people out of buildings for information.
I love how I am hearing the most logical imformation backed with proof from an evil ghost wearing a beanie.
Lol 😂
Antagonist? He's the hero. He's the least selfish person of them all, straight up doing what has to be done for the greater good..
frfr
MIGUEL IS THE FUCKIN’ MAN! FIGHT ME!
You're damn right, he's the best man, I'm delighted with him
My favorite thing about Miguel is his theme music/sound. Gives me Winter Soldier vibes. But for someone so logical, it was really strange of him to put Miles on blast like he was angry at him for being a so called "anomaly" even though it wasn't even his fault that he got bit. If anything, blame Spot for bringing across the earth 42 spider.
Yeah, he kinda made it personal, didn't he?
I liked Miguel a lot, sorta reminds me of Jiren from Dragon Ball Super. He’s an antagonist and doesn’t do anything wrong he’s just fighting for his universe, just going against the protagonist (Universe 7), in fact, he’s a hero in his universe.
Miguel is a lot like that, he’s a hero and has saved people. But he’s against Miles because he just wants to maintain order in the spiderverse. Sure, the canon events suck, but his goal is to maintain the canon events so the universe doesn’t fuck itself. He’s seen firsthand what breaking canon events can do, he doesn’t want that. That’s why, I agree with him in all honesty. Plus, he’s a badass so that helps too
I feel like miguel thinks of Miles as the villain/antagonist as much as Miles thinking Miguel as the villain/antagonist
From my point of view, Miles is the villain.
@@Peacemaker2024-A9T I am on Miguel's side
Tell me what is your reason for joining Miguel side?
@@Peacemaker2024-A9T because it is not assured that miles can save his dad and if he does then wouldn't a black hole or what ever it was open in his world
I agree, like we just supposed to sacrifice billions of people just so only Miles father can live. You realize how insane that sounds right, it's sounds a lot like Supreme Strange all over again, I side by Miguel side to protect everything he is fighting for, and to protect everyone and everything Miles has created in his universe. When the stakes are this high, we have to do what is right, whatever it takes.
I think a better way for Miguel is that each universe is like those stack of cards built up and going against a "canon event" is what topples the universe (the cards)
An antagonist doesn't even have to be morally grey, just to oppose the protagonist, if the protagonist is evil the antagonist could be a character with morals and heroic traits
Very true, I was laying out the structure of a typical antagonist like Miguel, who was not necessarily evil, but not good either. I do believe that in the analysis I say “can be morally grey” for that very reason, because it’s not always the case, but just often is the case. Thank you for your comment tho, I agree that an antagonist is just whatever force is going against the protagonist, and the type of story that is being told will determine what morality the antagonist has.
I firmly believe Miguel is morally grey. No real good characters will beat the shit out of a kid
@@imperatricedelaconstellati8523 I agree that Miguel is morally grey, even more than the Miles stuff I think there's more to his backstory that he might be hiding from us which could make him even more questionable, what I was referring to was just the definition of an antagonist in general not specifically Miguel.
Ngl all the memes abt him built up my anticipation for him in the movie
😂😂
Thanos is absolutely a villain
True, I kinda regret that example looking back at it 😅
@@ghosttoast824 No, you had sound logic. If it wasn't for the whole genocide thing, he'd be considered an antagonist only. Cause let's face it. his motivations were noble. He's just trying to keep the universe from dying. It was his actions after he got all the stones is what cemented him as a villain as he could have just fixed the resource problem without harming the population.
@@kratkartan1486 tecnically he was just trying to delay the inevitable, if he wiped out half of the universe eventually the population would double again trought its natural growth
he literally stopped everyone from dying because the planet wouldn't have enough people for a Celestial to be born
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 dpes he know about the celestial in the first place tho?, and even tho he might have done so his intention was still kill half the universe and later in endgame with the knowledge he gets from the future he plans on erasing the whole universe and start a new
Loved this video❤️ Imo Miguel might not be as logical as we think. I think the truama he went through being the reason an entire universe got wiped out weighs on him so heavily that he sees someone else like miles making the same mistake he did and doing everything to stop it from happening again. It may very well be an emotional reaction that caused him to go feral and tear miles apart like that. Theres a guilt and a self hatred in him that might taint his judgment.
Design matters. When Miguel first appears in "Into the Spider-Verse" post credit scene, he's way more slim, doesn't have long claws into his forearms, and his mask design isn't "angry"... Maybe that design wouldn't match the script from "Across", that emphasizes his "brutal/vampires" traits..
This is the best explanation of Miguel as a character in the movie, people might forget or don't know his comics but he is a good spiderman, people just think of him as a villan cuz is goin against miles, but he is not, he is just trying to protect him and his universe, Miguel is a really good character and I can't wait to see how is goin to work out for the next movie, I just hope they don't to the "oh the hero wins and he did wat he wanted and everything went well"
Having been a 2099 fan since his premier in the 90's, it's really cool that Miggy is getting all this exposure now, but it's slightly frustrating since the character from Spider-Verse really doesn't have too much in common with the original comic version
It's not the comic version...None of them are. The comics are shown in the canon events scene alongside the live action and animated material. It's literally in the canon that the comic versions are separate realities. This isn't O'Hara of 928 but O'Hara of 928-B.
True for Peter, Gwen and Miles. They've all done things their comic counterparts would never do...Which is intentional. But they have enough similarities to respect what came before to pay homage to their roots.
Miguel is slightly more of a departure but it's clear this is meant to be a Darker/Evil/Broken/Anti-Hero whichever way you see variant of him. He's meant to be the antagonist he's meant to have accidentally done something horrific he's meant to represent all of the reductive and obsessive sides of Spider-Man.
But he's still more accurate than Noir and Ben Reilly who only look comic accurate but their personalities are completely off. As they're only comedic played for laughs.
Me: *travels back in time to stop the Elric Brothers from trying to perform necromancy*
Miguel: Sorry, canon event.
Regarding your opening when you define "the difference between a villain and an antagonist" you use the definition of an anti-villain to describe an antagonist, when an antagonist can actually be both!
An antagonist is an adversary who directly opposes the protagonist and that antagonist can be a true villain down to the core, or a anti-villain with understanding motivations!
Just a little grmatical suggestions in case you decide to make another video like this
👍
Thank you for the advice, I will definitely take it into consideration when making my next video!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, so yeah I agree with Miguel.
The canon event is the captain's death. As an anomaly, I believe Miles has the power to change some canon events without breaking the universe, kinda like how Gwen's father did not break canon by retiring, since he and Gwen's Spider-persona weren't close. Loopholes in the rules.
However, the multiverse has a stream to maintain. Just like in a universe in which Ben lived had May take his place to maintain the continuity intact, someone equally important to Miles might take his place. I think an anomaly only breaks the universe if they operate outside of their own. If they operate inside, they have more freedom of maneuver, but the universe will adapt itself to not stray too far.
I don't think that Miles has some special anomalous canon-breaking status, it's just that Miguel's understanding of what causes canon breaks is flawed. Rather than changing "important events" being the cause, it might instead just be Interference from an outside Spiderman.
FOR REAL THOUGH DUDE!!! Dude ssooo many people just call him a villain or a bad guy.
Calling it now
Movie 3 starts with what happened to Miguel.
i love Spider-Man 2099 he's really awesome and badass. :)
Agreed
@@ghosttoast824 indeed heck fun fact actually spider-man 2099 i actually knew about him thanks to spider-man ps1 game and i always thought his suit looked really awesome even as a kid. :)
Alot of people think Antagonist means bad guy when in actuality it means just the opposing force from the protagonist. You could have a protagonist villain and a her antagonist. It does either way as long as one side is opposing another. I don't see Miguel as a bad person but I don't support or agree with his views but I understand where he is coming from.
Miguel O Hara is one of my favorite Spider Men along with Miles Morales and Hobie Brown aka Spider Punk. Perfect review by the way.
Thank you, glad you enjoyed the review, and yeah, Miguel and Hobie are so cool
@@ghosttoast824 yes they both are cool keep these videos coming
I honestly didn’t like how Miguel was introduced at the beginning. He struggled too much against the vulture and was made the butt of a lot of jokes. He was absolutely sick when he showed back up, but I don’t think that opening scene served him very well because I wasn’t really scared by him until he actually started kicking Miles’s ass when I probably should’ve been scared from the first scene of his reintroduction
You weren't supposed to be scared of him. The whole point is he slowly lost his grip on his sanity, and Mile basically destroyed what little control he was holding onto. Nobody thought Miguel was going to blow up the way he did. You can tell by how Peter was joking with him while letting his baby crawl on saying "He's my friend and doesn't bite" and then looks at Gwen with this completely horrified face when he saw how unhinged he actually was. We're supposed to think he's a good guy. He was supposed to be portrayed as a grump with a good heart. He called himself a good guy while fighting a villain. He was kind to Gwen by disarming her father and allowing her to come along with him (which showed that yeah, he actually can be flexible since he initially didn't want her to join him.) Gwen gushed about him to Miles. He tolerates Peter's jokes and is gentle with Mayday. He tries to comfort Miles by telling him he knows exactly how he feels. And then he tries to lock Miles up and goes feral on him when he runs off, revealing that he's not been the good guy everyone thinks he is.
Logically I side with Miguel but if I were to go by my opinion I side with Miles though realistically I’m in between honestly
I absolutely love how divided the internet is regarding Migul. Some say he's an antagonist through and through, some say he's morally grey, and the rest think he's actually good and an antihero
Think of Miguel as Venom, just with the trolley problem
A friend of mine said something quite interesting about Spider-Man. He said that as much as Spider-Man has some iconic and interesting villains, the best Spider-Man stories are the ones where Spider-Man is the antagonist and Peter Parker (or whoever is behind the mask) is the protagonist. It's partly why until seeing ATSV, Spider-Man 2 (2004) was my all time favourite superhero movie. Doc Ock was the villain sure but not a whole lot of what he did was directly opposing the protagonists goals and his intentions more incidentally crossed paths with Spider-Man (hell, he doesn't even figure out what he's doing until near the end of the film) BUT Spider-Man acts as a much more direct antagonist to Peter! Peter wants to be there for Mary-Jane's play, but his responsibility as Spider-Man won't let him, Peter wants to make amends with Harry but his life as Spider-Man has ruined his friendship.
And I love that the writers of ATSV get that and expand on it. Miles needs to get to the meeting with his parents at school but his responsibility as Spider-Man won't let him. Miles wants to join the Spider-Society but that means letting his father die which he can't do and a different version of Spider-Man won't let him stop such a horrific thing from happening. (It's also a great detail that throughout the chase scene, Miles isn't wearing his mask)
I love this keen observation
Great video! I think that the third movie will probably end up proving Miguel "wrong" (puts a bit of a damper on the ongoing theme of Miles being his own spiderman, his own way otherwise, plus Miguel's canon event theory creates too many plotholes if true), but I personally found him a much more compelling character tham spot purely because his motivations made so much sense. Definitely looking forward to seeing where the story goes
The way I see it Miguel is the hero and miles is the villain.
Me: *travels back in time to save Tanjiro’s family*
Miguel: Sorry, canon event.
I can't believe I just realized that Miguel believes that loss is what makes a good Spider-Man, when his loss is what's broken him to the point that Miles asks, "Are you sure you're even a Spider-Man?" He has to believe that loss is unavoidable and necessary, or else that means it was his fault.
Miles has alluded to dealing with Spot by coming to understand his position instead of "beating" him. And I hope he can do the same with Miguel, because there's a really great Spider-Man trying to cope with all that pain.
No, he doesnt believe that. He believes that disrupting canon events will collapse entire universes and possibly the entire multiverse putting infinite lives at risk.
A perfect anthesis, hopefully this thread continues into Beyond The Spider Verse.
I love this study! It’s well done and I’m a fan of the character
Glad you enjoyed the video
I haven't watched the video yet (I'm excited to) but I just wanna say I agree with the thumbnail that just says HE IS PERFECT
this charecter reminds of the line in doctor who, in the episode called the voyage of the dammand an alian cruise ship is going to crash on earth, the doctor bieng a good person is trying to divert the danger and save the passanger who are bieng hunted by robots, it doesn't go well, as although the doctor stop an disater, many and I mean many good people die including a young maid who the doctor actually kind of fell in love with, since she always wanted to see the glaxay, after all the tramue and death there is one passenger who actually happy, an rich ambitious and heartless man who company would be able to profit from the disaster, he showed no remose when people die caring more for his own life then others, he was an mirror to the episode main villian, but he got no karma as he instead end up better then before, however as he walk away, an old man said to the doctor "out of all the people, it certainly odd he still alive... makes you wonder if it wasnt a choice" the doctor nodded the old man continue "but then that would make you kind of an monster choosing who it is to live or to die", migual is the definition of choice he like anyone trying to be good has to make the choice but it kind of make people into monsters as yes miles saving his dad is the right thing but there is a chance it might be something that has to happen and if it doesnt then time gets more killing more people then before, is it an risk yes, but it something miguel is willing to take as it will kill an entire universe of lives.
A good example of that reciprocal method of characterizing Was with Hiccup and Grimmel from How to Train your Dragon the Hidden world.
It's been bugging me ever since I watched the movie. I think Miguel is only partly right.
The way he explained and demonstrated it makes me think of viral or bacterial infections -- something that isn't meant to be there, but is, and the universe tries to fight it, even going so far as to destroy itself to try and get rid of the foreign visitor.
I don't think it's a Canon events deviation that causes the collapse. Every time we've seen the universes start to break, it's been because of person/s A being in Universe B. Example: Renaissance Vulture in Gwen's universe. Vulture is out and about - and not from there.
Like a virus/bacteria in a body.
The bigger the foreign part and the longer the presence, the bigger the reaction. Miles' spider was a small, easily manageable foreign entity, so the universe brushes it off. And the reason it doesn't glitch, is because it's dead. Dead viruses can exist inside a host body without issue, no? Miles is an original universe part, therefore the slight modification doesn't set off the "immune system" of his universe.
Additionally, Mayday also makes me think he's not entirely right. Yes, her presence was caused by an Anomaly, but she exists in her universe. She was conceived, born and is growing up there, so that universe doesn't reject her (despite an Anomaly being the reason she's there).
Basically, I think he is right about removing the Anomalies, but wrong about Canon deviation being the universe destruction cause. Thanks for listening to my ramble!
HE'S SO FIT
A villain COULD be a protagonist, take Light Yagami or Lelouch
Very true, depends on what kind of story is being told
Lelouch is not a villain
Ohh wait-that’s so true!
Walter Hartwell White from the hit TV show Breaking Bad.
Miguel o'hara he looks so handsome he is big muscles
I thought Antagonists are just The Obstacles that comes in the way of the Protagonists. Which can be Anyone or Anything
Villains are characters that aren't just objectively evil characters, but also Characters who willingly Inflict Harm whilst justifying it.
At least this is what I've been taught.
So Thanos, despite having good intentions, what makes him a Villain is the fact that he went out of his way to inflict Harm, even if he thinks is justified. It's different than landing in the position where you have to choose the Life of the Universe or 1 person.
It's a good video, I'm just saying my thoughts.
1:31 wait till he hears about the theory that the empire is actually the good side...
Miguel is one of the only spidermen who can hold mjolnir, only because he knows sometimes you have to lose a life to save other's (due to Odin's ideology)
I feel like they might do some plot chicanery with Miles and Miguel where Miles is able to 'break the canon' because it's really not that great of a change and could theoretically be handled, while Miguel's actions ended as they did because he outright tried to insert himself in a universe that simply wasn't his, live a life that wasn't his.
I can't look at the word chicanery without thinking of Better Call Saul
@@theironrubberduckI am not crazy! I knew it was a canon event. One captain death. As if I could ever make such a mistake. Never. Never!? I just - I just couldn't prove it. He, he changed the canon, he got that idiot pig to help him. You think this is something? You think this is bad? This? This chicanery? He's done worse. That collider! Are you telling me a multiversal collapse just happens to open like that? No! He blew it up! Miles! He created a world with no Spider-Man! And I saved him! And I shouldn't have. I took him into my own universe! What was I thinking? He'll never change. He'll never change! Ever since he became Spider-Man, always the same! Couldn't stay in his own dimension! But not our Miles! Couldn't be precious Miles! Dooming them blind! And he gets to be a Spider-Man!? What a sick joke! I should've stopped him when I had the chance! And you - you have to stop him! You-
bro Earth-42 literally collapsed in quality in comparison to other universes because Miles 42 didn't get bitten by the spider and you say it's not really that bad?
@@jellymatsuryuka6853 That wasn't really what I was going for with that, my bad. What I meant is like, some cannon divergence might be allowed while others simply can't. That's what I think they might go for in the future anyway, but yeah Earth-42 isn't doing so hot.
@@gamesmasher7120 the thing is, none of them are allowed but as Miguel stated some are so critical that they can end the entire multiverse
Everyone's so mean 2 me, thank you all for understanding my pain
an antagonist JUST goes against the protagonist no matter if the protags lawful good or chaoctic neutral, a villain is EVIL they could even be the protagonist, but their the villain
One person doesn’t sound like a huge sacrifice unless it was someone you loved
look my reasoning for liking Miguel is simple.
He's mexican, I'm Mexican.
He's spider-man, I love nearly every single version of spider-man.
That being said I do get a little sad that so many people are looking at Miguel as a blatant bad guy. You can see in his face, and hear it in his voice that it pains him to tell miles "no, you can't go save your dad". Plus you can see that he's losing his grips when he's chasing miles because he knows what could happen if miles fucks with the timeline too much and doesn't want more people to die than is absolutely necessary. I also get sad that Miguel, spider-man 20 fuckin 99 got stunted on by a teen who barely got his powers a year prior, that also just randomly got invisibility and electric powers.
went off on a tangent but back to my first point. I fuckin love miguel and I hope he and miles can see where the other is coming from in the next movie rather than both of them basically going "nuh uh"
Fr i love his character
He's well written and have good motives
And some ppl hate him? He has every right to be a villain. But he still wants to help Miles. Yes he was aggresive but so do rest of Spider Society towards Miles. Miles was fighting too. Damn Miguel isn't the only one who was fighting this is MARVEL. He tries his best but some ppl still consider him as a villain. Damn.
In the next film Miles versus the prowler and Miguel
I did a little look up. Don't know if Miquel is lying about his event or not, as realistically any contact with alternate universe particles would be anything from harmless to the absolute disintegration and/or cancer, so it tracks, I guess. And, the canon event _are_ inevitable, as in the "what-if" comic where Peter stopped the burgler, Daredevil kicked the bucket instead because of his irresponsibility. So even if Miles saves his dad, his mom will die instead or smth.
Am I the only one who made his theme their phone's ringtone?
Yea his "theme" is why he resonated with alot of viewers. Uh huh.
Adding to this analysis, Miguel is visibly starting to have doubts about himself and what he is doing by the end of the movie. Sadly, because of his fatalist mentality, he refuses to change from his path.
It is also interesting that Miguel is a jab at audiences who don't accept Miles as Spider-Man, but unlike the typical jab at audiences, he's not written as a loser like this type of character normally is.
I like your channel icon the way it's partly animated to match your tone in the video is cool like alteori but spookier :3
Your definition of antagonist is correct but thanos is not an example of an antagonist that isn't a villain
@@Web_Of_Venom That's what I was saying
Thanos isn’t a villain. His murders and genocides weren’t done because it was for laughs, but because he legitimately felt that it was necessary.
And let’s be honest; genocide is only “wrong” because your morals and values perceives it to be. Someone who doesn’t share your moral values wouldn’t come to that same conclusion, and in this case Thanos certainly doesn’t share that.
Miguel is not like the others since he is a successor and got his powers due to him mixing his dna with a spider
To me hes the greatest alt spiderman ever
Wait, he doesn't more than hold his own against the Vulture. He literally calls for back up...
Yeah, I am well aware he calls for back up, that’s why I didn’t say “he beats the vulture” or “defeats him”, but instead just say that “he holds his own”, implying that he put up a good fight, but didn’t necessarily win. There’s a difference between being competent in a fight and actually winning it, I was just simply saying he did well in the fight despite losing. I know Miguel losing an early fight is contradictory towards my point of him being built up as a significant threat, but I have a sly suspicion that the main reason the writers chose to have him lose to the Vulture is to have an easily convenient way to introduce Jessica Drew. I could be wrong, but that’s what it appeared like to me. Thank you for bringing up that point tho, I was wondering if anyone would try to ask me about that, so good job 👍
its the last wish all over again
Michael isn’t being rational, he’s letting his grief and fear of the unknown influence is actions. If anything he represents sacrifice the few to save the many which is not what Spiderman stands for.
As much as I love the movie, there is a lot of evidence that disrupting canon events doesn't cause the universe to unravel, but it's ignored by everyone. Universe 42 has doesn't have the spiderman it was supposed to, and New York looks to be a crime haven because of it, but it didn't disappear. Literally every canon event that was supposed to happen to spiderman could not happen there. Although Captain Morales DID die in that one, is it still canon because it happened to the person that was supposed to be spiderman? Likewise, Miles own universe remained intact despite the fact his spiderman died. And given that Miles is an anomaly, the "original" anomaly, why would any canon events even apply to him?
Gwen has been out of her own universe for several months, so there has been no spider person there to protect it during that time, why is Miguel ok with that, but rages at Miles for the fact that there is a world out there without Spiderman because the spider bit him instead? Miguel is directly disrupting canon by allowing Gwen to stay out of her universe. Is her canon event just delayed while she is out of the universe? If so, wouldn't keeping Miles in the spider society also prevent his dad from being a victim of that same canon event?
The whole police captain canon event is really shaky to begin with. Miguel specifically states the captain dies saving a child from falling rubble during a battle with a nemesis. Very specific wording. But there are two instances shown where that isn't what happens. Denis Leary's Captain Stacy died fighting a nemesis, but there was no falling rubble or child involved. And in Mumbattan, the Spot is not that Spiderman's nemesis, so it doesn't fully fit either. And going further, the captain is supposed to die during a battle with a nemesis. If Miles isn't there when the Spot attacks, there is no battle, just a slaughter, so the canon is already being altered.
Even if all of this is supposed to be hints that Miguel is wrong for us as the audience to pick up on, it still feels like a massive plot hole in the movie that none of the characters see it. Most, if not all, incarnations of Spiderpeople are supposed to be incredibly smart. Yet there are hundreds of them in the Spider Society, and they all just blindly follow Miguel? Hobie is the only one that seems against it, but is that because he sees the flaws in Miguel's beliefs or is just because he's an anarchist?
The only instance of a universe being erased has vastly different circumstances than a simple canon event being disrupted. And even there, they don't know for certain that Miguel's actions caused that universe to unravel.
This was very nicely written, and very accurate...I 100% agree with you
Great breakdown
MCU Thanos not a "bad guy"? Dude tortured his daughters and slaughtered countless people attempting to wipe out half of all life in the universe. Even if you accept the "finite resources" justification, that doesn't justify the vindictiveness, cruelty, and sadism. Here is a thought exercise: Swap in a CGI otter for Nebula.
Yeah, I know I messed up on that one, thanks for pointing it out tho 😓😂
The difference between otters and Nebula is that otters do some extremely fucked up shit. Like raping baby seals to death.
Miguel's introduction was completely unexcepted for me. I was waiting him to appear later on in the movie, but no! He came out of KNOWHERE and hit the Vulture with the meanest grab I've ever seen.
6:53 - Also. He's the only Spider-Man who is not funny. Spider-Mans are supossed to be funny. - Spidey Prime's words.
Miguel is right
Hope he returns in the next movie.
Same
Why wouldn't he?
So many movie antagonists are studies of the trolley problem
People who villify Miguel miss the whole point of the movie. He literally believes millions of people, possible more could be killed if Miles tries to go against the canon. And from his own personal experience fucking with the canon, he knows the consequences first hand, and he's not about to let something like that happen again. Miles's dad dying is something every spider person goes through, and it's something Miguel sees as 1 or 1,000,000- the greater good. Even tho the characters don't fully understand the rules of the canon, he can't risk anyone going against it because there's a chance of another universe collapsing. He's a great antagonist, but he's not a villain.
Yes! I waited for this♥♥♥♥♥
okay okay okay love drawing the difference between antagonist and villian buuut thanos is straight up a villian regardless of how justified he feels.
Yeah, I def could’ve used a better example than that lol 😓
i liked when the 1940s german spiderman joined forces with 1950s american spiderman in project paperclip
This deserves a subscription from the Subscription Warrior ⚔
Thank you
The question of the canon event rules is so complex that I can't find an answer for how to solve it