I personally believe the nameless things are some of the first Monsters that Morgoth corrupted. " Beasts of Horn and ivory that dyed the earth with blood." They also some of them being the discords of Morgoth in creation. Before Saurons Elegents to Morgoth and being his second in command.
I really appreciate the mystery surrounding the Nameless things but I think if worked out just a little bit more, not too much though to not take away too much of said mystery, it would make for some really decent, good old Lovecraftian horror.
I like the idea that they're the remnants of what came before the creation of the world. I link them more with ungoliant than with melkor (not saying that ungoliant made them, just that they have similar origins.)
Yes. Like they were either results of Melkors discord during the music of the ainur, or even, like you say, remnants of an earlier existence. Only Eru knows how many times a universe have been formed, existed and ended. Something that for some reason have managed to make the transition from one reality to another?
@@Sykohsis I didn't say nothing about Ungoliant origin, I said that all evil was work of Melkor. And is cleary said in The Silmarillion that Ungoliant was a being that Melkor corrupted, not evil in origin, but that she abandoned him. And where exactly is said that Ungoliant was a being of the Void?
Aule created the Dwarves, because he was impatient for the coming of the Children of Iluvatar. But the Dwarves were rough and unlovely in appearance, because Aule had only a vague notion of how the Children would appear. If we apply that process to Melkor, then he too would have created his monsters by a process of trial and error. While Melkor finally created highly impressive, well formed monsters like Balrogs and dragons, they were amongst the last of his creations. In a much earlier age, when Melkor was first creating monsters to try and hinder the Valar from roaming at will through Middle Earth, perhaps he created things that did not meet his expectations. Perhaps he rejected these Nameless Things, and cast them into the bowels of the earth, to be forgotten. But the Nameless Things did not die, having fragments of the power of Melkor within them, and so remain down there still, hunting endlessly for living prey.
@Z. Michael Gehlke : Except there's no record of the Dwarves ever encountering a Nameless Thing. We do know they resided far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves.
The balrogs were Maiar but they were corrupted and given their flame and shadow form by Melkor. I don’t think they were always in balrog form while part of the choir or living in Valanor.
"There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world" These things are crazy! Lol what's more terrifying than a creature so unknown so horrific it has no name? It seems Tolkien left them as such to ever gnaw at our imagination and fears Perhaps the best kind of suspense there is 🤔
I doubt that the Watcher in the Water is a "Cold Drake." For one thing, "Drake" usually refers to dragon creatures, and the Watcher isn't exactly a dragon. I always understood that cold drakes were either dragons that couldn't breathe fire, or dragons that even had a frost breath, similar to the white dragons of D&D (though I lean toward the former). I took creatures like the Watcher in the Water to be representations of primal chaos and fear, not unlike the Kraken, Leviathan, Scylla, Charybdis, or even Cthulhu.
Whatever it was the Watcher was sentient enough to be drawn to the power of the ring, it seized Frodo first from among the others and perhaps had been stirred up by the will of Sauron.
My theory: the nameless things are creatures of the void much like Ungoliant, things that existed before the creation of Arda. When Illuvitar created the earth, some of these void creatures were buried deep under the earth, near the earth's core even, bit by bit they took physical forms, unaware of the creatures above that they could draw inspiration from like Ungoliant had with spiders, the nameless things were bizarre, grotesque monstrosities. Why didn't they make their way to the surface? Likely because of Illuvitar and the Valar, they know the world is not eternal and are waiting for the end times when they can finally escape their earthen prison. Will they join Morgoth when he returns? Maybe, but Ungoliant was temporarily Morgoth's ally, not his servant, and its possible these void creatures will side with Morgoth to get vengeance for their imprisonment, though they might just use the opportunity to escape and get out of dodge while the Valar and Illuvitar are distracted.
With you on this. We have a story written by Elves. That is not to say it is ALL the story. I wonder if the Noldor ever grilled Manwë on all this. Probably not.
I like to think of the nameless things as something beyond our comprehension. Like in our own lives at the bottom of the deepest oceans. Whatever they are, they are so terrifying and formidable that two maiar didn't even stick around to better aquaint themselves. They are likely monstrously huge and just stay in the depths, never coming into the light of day...perhaps not until the end of times. I too have wondered if Morgoth knew of them and if they were of his making
It could be a possibility that Morgoth created the nameless things because in the Silmarillion, when the Valar first capture Morgoth, they did not inspect his fortress and thus many evil things survived and came forth again. I remember the book describing how the fortress just went down and down into the darkness and had so many areas for evil creatures to hide. The nameless things could have been something Morgoth started on but never finished. In his absence, they probably continued on by themselves downwards into the dark and made their way over to the mountains, under Moria. Perhaps Morgoth originally used them to create tunnels for his fortress and dig down for him so he could expand and create his army.
Apparently Utumno was so big that when it was besieged the valar could not find sauron in the endless vaults and tunnels of the fortress. I like the idea that they were Morgoths experiments to they to defeat the valar but failed
I would subscribe to the theory that the Nameless Things were a ressult of Melkor’s discord within the Music of the Ainur. It is indicated that these creatures had an ill hatred for all things, good and evil, and therefore would hate even Melkor. I would think that if these were direct inventions of Melkor, they would not hate him (at least not with the aggression as they have been presented with). That they were the outcome of Melkor’s discord would make sense, as the Nameless Things would be only fragments of his thought that remained in Arda when it was made. Also, if the Nameless Things were of Melkor’s will and making, why were they forgotten? Why were they only found at the deepest places in Arda? There is really no connection between them and Melkor, other than the speculation that because they are foul beings, they would have to be the spawn of Melkor. I think the theory in Melkor’s discord would be plausible, for then they would be a twisted creation without intention (which would explain their very wrong nature). I can imagine, since the Music were intended to be perfect, the discord spoiled it from being so and as a result, the Nameless Things existed in Arda.
"In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel." It's chilling that gandalf would find relief in chasing the ballrog as he was lost in the tunnels
Sounds like a nod to Lovecraft's worldbuilding and his short story "The Unnamable" (1925). "It was everywhere - a gelatin - a slime; a vapor; - yet it had shapes, a thousand shapes of horror beyond all memory. There were eyes - and a blemish. It was the pit - the maelstrom - the ultimate abomination. Carter, it was the unnamable!" Good video though. Cthulhu fhtagn!
Yes I'm glad someone else sees the Lovecraftian aspect to this. What if Lovecraft was inspired by the nameless things and expanded upon it or vise versa Tolkien wanted to include the idea of the Unnameable in his works because Lovecraft inspired him.
I do love the mystery of the nameless things. I dont know about the theory about the Watcher being a cold drake. But I do subscribe to the theory the watcher is a nameless thing because... it doesnt have a name. Its in the book at balins tomb where its called "the watcher in the water" which in my eyes is a description not a name. Thus a nameless thing. I would love to think they are some great evil but they are more than likely just unknown creatures to the free peoples.
The theory I have is they could be Lovecraftian type creatures so indescribable that just the very sight of them would drive a person mad. They could be something so incomprehensible a name would not justify what it is. I like this a lot. Could you imagine a Tolkien Lovecraft crossover
What if the entities of Lovecraft were indeed the nameless things? How would the wars of the Lamps, Powers, and Beleriand play out if those such as Hastur, Cthulhu, Shub Nigurath, Yogg Sothoth or even Azathoth fought under the banner of Melkor?
I'd guess that Morgoth/Mordoc warped some innocent forms of living creatures into some foul form of life ; like turning whales or squids into sea monsters, or elephants or rhinos into some sort of fell beasties.
Doubt it, Eru is basically the God portrayed by the lore of Elves, so nothing is truly independent from his design. Iluvatar said to Melkor before he brought the music of the Ainur into being that nothing is truly outside his design.
I doubt Tolkien knew oh Lovecraft’s works, but I think they are of a similar ken to them. Ancient evils from another time in existence, lovecraftian in nature.
Hard to say if he knew of Lovecraft are not. I know there's a letter from the mid-60's where Tolkien mentions enjoying some of Howard's Conan stories. But I don't know anyone knows if he was aware of that genre of writers before he wrote LOTR or not.
Last I recall it was something along the line of a choir being creation and nameless things being the off-notes that occur when good and evil music tried to harmonize. So take every conflicting noise and how they make you feel, and from each conflict comes some unknown, unnamed anomaly. Not wholly evil, certainly not good, basically just something that "is" and likely can't be unmade in a meaningful way. Something utterly unlike harmonious life:it doesn't breathe, doesnt need to digest to live, doesnt need to see or feel - something driven by purpose wholly foreign to us, if it has any conscious purpose at all. They exist outside the conflicts of the younger races and have their own machinations they dedicate all their time to: no need to sleep, no need to communicate, just endless action towards a purpose we'd never know. By all measure: mystery, but terrifying.
It's not impossible but I don't think that Lovecraft had yet gained much popularity by the time Tolkien's writings were being published. It's hard to say but these are very very Lovecraftian in their description and lore.
It cam from H.P. Lovecraft, who came before Tolkien. Besides, one of the old gods of WoW is similar H.P. Lovecraft, such as Yogg-Soron which they named as Yogg-Saron
Warcraft and WoW's background is cobbled together from different settings: H.P. Lovecraft, Greek mythology, Norse Mythology, Egyptian mythology, Tolkien, D&D, Warhammer fantasy (green Orcs) and lots of other stuff and myth. Lots of fantasy is ofcourse, but Warcraft hides it really really bad. Not to say that Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 are bad games and neither was WoW. Was....
In my opinion, this should’ve been the plot for The New Shadow, the nameless things being discovered by the dwarves on accident, therefore a new and dangerous threat invades Middle Earth, uniting dwarves and men once more for a new epic battle. Considering these are also creations from Morgoth, a New Shadow arises.
The mysteries of Middle-Earth fascinate me. I know you have covered Tom Bombadil, how about Beorn? Its never explained why he can shapeshift or how his lineage fits in with the rest of men, particularly are there any links in his heritage to the Edain?
Similar to the creation of other primordial evils, I think that these creatures were corrupted from the discord created by Melkor during the song of creation. Melkor didn't specifically make them, but they were corrupted beings that come from the void of similar kind as Ungoliant. Most of these creatures seemed to hate any light as light signified the power of Eru, so they all fled to the deep, dark places of the world never to be seen again by mortals until possibly the watcher. Melkor might have had a hand in creating them or letting them come into physical form in some way, but it's clear that he could not control them directly for his own plans. They were far removed from anything happening in the surface so Sauron didn't even know or would have cared much since he only wanted to control things.
Tolkien was a master of alluding to things that were extremely interesting. The Nameless Things are only mentioned a handfull in the entire Legendarium and he chose to keep them a mystery and thus ripe for brainstorming.
To those who think Tolkien is nodding to Lovecraft, no, it is more a moment when Tolkien thought LIKE Lovecraft, imagining incomprehensible things that would give an angel existential, cosmid dread. That is not dead which can eternal lie...
Reminds me of Babylon 5. G'Kar: There are things in the universe that are billions of years older than either of our races.They are vast, timeless.And if they are aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants. And we have as much chance of communicating as an ant has with us. We know. We've tried. And we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot, or be stepped on. They are a mystery. And I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the universe. That we have not yet explained everything.
This is Really well done! Since my channel dose a lot in LOTRO I love that you did a Video on these! I think it's so cool to think that Tolkien even has Creatures of thedarkness I feel almost they could be of the "Void" Almost a peer darkness of corruption in his stories. Very cool nice video friend!
Nice video! I think they may have been the Discord of Melkor incarnated, like the theory that Ungoliant is and that Tom Bombadil is the music of the ainur.
Love the connection of how there’s many undiscovered places and creatures on Middle Earth, just like our world itself. Cause who knows what’s in these oceans of ours!
The guy who runs the TH-cam page the red book posted a video on these 6 days ago and his video is pretty dang good and some more interesting theorys on them too.he has a different look on it and it's fun to compare the two.
I think it is a shame that a giant channel like this posted the exact same topic so close as well. More people will click this and not watch the other ----- and I think the other video is more interesting tbh.
@@amandaroberts2069 Steven from the Red Book and I are great friends. Sometimes though, all of us Tolkien channels run into accidentally releasing the same content, but we always remain civil and friendly about it! I've been planning to release this one on Halloween for a few months so it would not have been fair to myself and you all to change it because another channel posted a similar video. I hope that makes sense and I hope everyone checks his video out as well! He's a great guy and an excellent Tolkien scholar.
I see them as part of the discordant elements of the Song of Creation (similar to the theories surrounding Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant). They were essentially glitches in the creation story.
The Nameless Things are probably some of the more creepy things in Middle-Earth? Why? We barely know anything about them. Tolkien basically left it up to the reader’s imagination on what these creeps are.
Well if you want more information Men of the West you should check out another Lotr historian youtuber called: "The Red Book" He has a bit more information on the Nameless Things you can check out. There is a possibility that the Nameless Things may not be of Melkor's direct creation but something that has that spawned into existence after the corruption of the music of creation by Melkor. A evil that does not serve the Dark Lord but themselves, forever uncaring of the world above them but mysterious. A largely unknown force almost eldritch like that may be known as nameless gods to some. The Red Book did great in his "What are the Nameless Things?" video.
It could be that the nameless things came into existence just in the act of Morgoth creating a hindrance for Erome just as the two trees of Valinor came about when Yavanna was chanting/singing and Nienna’s tears were watering the moss.
Amazing work yoysten I am halfway through unfinished tales and I am learning about the downfall of nùmenor do you have a video on that topic and great video as always friend I used to know nothing about this thank you for expanding my knowledge on my favourite franchise
I'm not super well versed in all of the Tolkein lore, but is it possible that these Nameless Things are creatures similar to Ungoliant? Primordial beings that exist within arda before the Valar even arrived to shape it. They seem to fit that description of such creatures, dark and powerful, hidden from the world at large, and while maybe not inherently evil definitely antagonistic to the peoples of Middle Earth.
How can the Watcher in the Water be a "cold drake" with that many arms? Even the dragons of Middle Earth have some form of consistency to their forms. These "Nameless Things" are more chaotic, primordial, and eldritch than anything above the surface of Middle Earth.
"They are evil like Morgoth, but not of Morgoth, not of his kin. They would not bend to his will, for all evil hates, and they hated him to." I forgot where I heard this.
I like the theory i have heard that beings like Ungoliant, Tom Bombadeil, and the nameless things are enigmas/ beings that came into existence because of the music of the Aniur.
I agree the Nameless Things were most likely made by Melkor/Morgoth in Arda's earliest days by perverting other creatures. They weren't suitable in the long run for Morgoth's plans so he just abandoned them and they fled into deep, dark places, possibly when the Two Lamps were first lit. Great video!
I've always liked the idea of them coming from the primordial soup of the multiverse rather than one specific creator. I like the "terrifying unforeseen consequences" of creating life, take.
Wow! I went looking for info on the nameless things just by coincidence and this video was posted less than a day ago. I only realized when I checked after I heard your Halloween greeting. Happy Halloween BTW :)
They seem to be enigmatic by design. The whole concept of unknown and unknowable terrors lying far beyond the reaches of even the dark Lord himself is far more bone chilling than anything you could actually say to describe them. It really lends a sense of awe, eternity, and otherworldliness about Gandalf’s whole subterranean journey.
What if the nameless things are Morgoth's failed attempts to actually create life as Iluvitar did? Like he used the void to try and recreate the secret fire & the nameless things are the result?
I checked out Lord of Maps. Thought it would be a cool xmas gift for the wife. Turns out, most don't come with frames and you'll be paying almost as much in shipping as you do for the map itself.
I think that, like Ungoliant, they formed as clouds of hate in the void, and then seeped into the fabric of Arda, coagulating as the nameless horrors of the deep under the misty mountains.
The unconscious response to the unknown tends to be fear and frightful imaginings. A conscious response is to prepare to see, or choose to let it remain unknown.
I've always assumed these were creations devised by Ulmo. They're chaotic and feared by Gandalf and Sauron, and Melkor (maybe?) Yeah, Melkor was more afraid of Ulmo than he was of Manwe because Ulmo couldn't be arsed.
My theory is that they existed before Eru created middle earth. Like he had his realm that the Velar exist in, and so maybe there was some void of blackness at the same time where he later made the world, and the world was laid atop them, and so they gnaw at it's base eating up to destroy what replaced their home, and make it like it was.
I don't think Melkor created the things. I think they're most likely not even evil, but spirits drawn to the physical realm as other spirits were. I don't think the Watcher is a thing, more likely a kraken caught and trapped by the goblin folk.
Hm, so are the nameless things different from void creatures? From what I remember there where nameless beings near the area of the shire under the hills. They are also old but seem to be the same or similar age to middle earth themselves. Maybe Powerful but uninterested in the going ons of the world like Tom Bombadil. Compared to the void creatures that came from outside the created world, a place where even melkor tried to find the fire of life. TLDR: Nameless creatures are different from Void Creatures
What if Gandalf’s reference wasn’t necessarily an admission of some unknown creature but in fact his way of saying “I do not know who made these caves!”
So, when you refine ore, you end up with purified metal, but also leftover slag. In the laying of the foundation of the world, the Valar took the flesh of the earth and separated out those parts useful to the creatures to follow into veins to be discovered, mined, and used later. Melkor, either seeking praise or to demonstrate his prowess, took this process a step further than their guidance, and created an essence above all of the rest, mithril. But, in so doing, what was left were a baneful and malevolent spirits. Personified roots of the mountains, missing what would have sated them and kept them doing Eru's will, in holding up the world. And so they wander, with an undefined emptiness and resentment, grinding away at creation, and any that fall in their path.
Nameless things, things that cannot be named, quantified. It reminds me of you, Yoystan. I have no words for your magnificent voice, your stature I imagine, just all that you are. Oh Yoystan…
I always thought they were ancient spirits of malice who lived in Udun when Angband still existed who were cut off when Angband was raised by The Host of Valinor. That is how the Balrog of Moria was trapped below Moria until the Dwarves of Durin's line opened the deeps, freeing him from millennia of imprisonment.
Jostun I thought u did an excellent job. I am glad u mentioned that the four Valar were the ones who came first to shape the world. I agree with u full heartedly that Melkor created and placed them here before Sauron came to arda. I thought u did a great job on this happy Halloween
“The greatest emotion is fear, and the greatest fear of man is the fear of the unknown.” -H.P. Lovecraft. I’m paraphrasing, but that line is what comes to mind when I think of, read about, or hear about the Nameless Things.
I love the use of LOTRO's representation of the deep, deep tunnels under Moria. The "nameless things" there are a little more like regular foes, but still are weird enough to work for now.
Following Occam razor i think the watcher is a nameless thing. It's on "guard" (maybe waiting for a prey like spiders do) to Moria's gate in a little lake. Gandalf was in the deep of misty mountains where he saw tunnels and underground rivers and lakes; so there is water. And this creatures digs through soil and stone. Maybe the watcher dug too up or followed an underground river that led to the surface (exiting in the lake). In a letter, Tolkien said that the identity of the Watcher was unknown for him and he wanted to leave the mystery on it. So I think that nameless things (a name in the book that gives a feeling of mystery for this creatures) are like Watcher in the water or similar or divided in some different races (tentacles, worms and similar) About their origins, I think that they was created inadvertently by Morgoth when he came to arda from the dimension where Eru is, bringing the discordant note to the world. Probably Ungoliant was created in this way too. Furthermore i remember they are never mentioned in silmarillion while Dragons, Drakes, orks, trolls, werewolves, vampires are mentioned a lot. This is another prove that could confirm that Melkor didn't created them voluntarily otherwise they would be in Angband too or at least mentioned. Then they never took sides demonstrating that they are neutral beasts living only for eat (yes, like Ungoliant and her spawn) and their habitat is exactly the deep underground and probably the water. What do you think about? ^_^°
Operating under the assumption that Arda is Morgoth’s Ring, in that he suffused his influence into the world (which thus explains why bad things happen in the world), what if the NTs are manifestations of that evil, just more concentrated?
My personal theory is that they have nothing to do with Melkor, the Music of the Ainur, or even Illuvatar. They are timeless things of the Void, separate and apart from anything else. Some happened to be “caught” in the World when the Ainur sang it into existence out of the Void, but, like Illuvatar, they are older even than the Ainur. That makes them completely, perfectly alien, far more than mere corrupted creations of Melkor.
There's also the fact Nameless Things can be a sort of Alien-like creatures that weren't made by the Valar, but are actually a leaked Essence of the Void that in time gave shape to these things.
I don't think Melkor made the Nameless Things, at least not with the intent that such a statement suggests. If indeed he made them, it is almost certain that they are accidents or byproducts of his discord, rather than being his actual creations. If he had made them knowingly, then he would have made more use of them in the wars of the First Age. Given that Ungoliant and the Watcher of the Water are almost certainly among them, beings so wild and wholly unlike the easily-controlled servants that were Melkor's later creations such as orcs except in their foul nature, seems to suggest that he did not personally make them so much as make them possible.
The Nameless things are most likely of the same origins as Ungoliant. Dark fawl spirits that entered Arda from the depths of the Void. Probably they were originally dark thoughts that emanated from Melkor when he rebelled in mind and thought against Eru. When he went alone into the void to contemplate his own frustrating desire to create on his own. These frightening debased beings might have seeped from Melkor's blasphemous wants.
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I personally believe the nameless things are some of the first Monsters that Morgoth corrupted. " Beasts of Horn and ivory that dyed the earth with blood." They also some of them being the discords of Morgoth in creation. Before Saurons Elegents to Morgoth and being his second in command.
You are Incredible
You overenunciate. Just chill and talk like normal.
I really appreciate the mystery surrounding the Nameless things but I think if worked out just a little bit more, not too much though to not take away too much of said mystery, it would make for some really decent, good old Lovecraftian horror.
the nameless things are leftist voters many of whom still vote after death.
I like the idea that they're the remnants of what came before the creation of the world. I link them more with ungoliant than with melkor (not saying that ungoliant made them, just that they have similar origins.)
Agree, it is what makes a lot of sense too
Yes. Like they were either results of Melkors discord during the music of the ainur, or even, like you say, remnants of an earlier existence. Only Eru knows how many times a universe have been formed, existed and ended. Something that for some reason have managed to make the transition from one reality to another?
everything evil was Melkor work
@@morpheussandman3984 Not really. Ungoliant was created out of the void, not by Melkor.
@@Sykohsis I didn't say nothing about Ungoliant origin, I said that all evil was work of Melkor.
And is cleary said in The Silmarillion that Ungoliant was a being that Melkor corrupted, not evil in origin, but that she abandoned him.
And where exactly is said that Ungoliant was a being of the Void?
Aule created the Dwarves, because he was impatient for the coming of the Children of Iluvatar. But the Dwarves were rough and unlovely in appearance, because Aule had only a vague notion of how the Children would appear.
If we apply that process to Melkor, then he too would have created his monsters by a process of trial and error. While Melkor finally created highly impressive, well formed monsters like Balrogs and dragons, they were amongst the last of his creations.
In a much earlier age, when Melkor was first creating monsters to try and hinder the Valar from roaming at will through Middle Earth, perhaps he created things that did not meet his expectations.
Perhaps he rejected these Nameless Things, and cast them into the bowels of the earth, to be forgotten. But the Nameless Things did not die, having fragments of the power of Melkor within them, and so remain down there still, hunting endlessly for living prey.
I dig this!
@Z. Michael Gehlke : Except there's no record of the Dwarves ever encountering a Nameless Thing. We do know they resided far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves.
Dude you beat me to it on this comment 🤣. Was gonna say something similar.
The balrogs were Maiar but they were corrupted and given their flame and shadow form by Melkor. I don’t think they were always in balrog form while part of the choir or living in Valanor.
@@timonsolus idk man, the position of the watcher could count as dwarvens contact with the nameless.
"There are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world"
These things are crazy! Lol what's more terrifying than a creature so unknown so horrific it has no name? It seems Tolkien left them as such to ever gnaw at our imagination and fears
Perhaps the best kind of suspense there is 🤔
I agree man. The more your exposed to things the more mundane they become. But leaving things to the readers imagination the really is suspenseful.
There are clear H.P Lovecraft influences in the Nameless things.
The idea that there are fowler things is for the birds.
@@tominiowa2513 oops 🤣
@@bucky7162 I don’t know if Tolkien ever read Lovecraft but it would certainly be interesting. Definitely a similar feel.
I doubt that the Watcher in the Water is a "Cold Drake." For one thing, "Drake" usually refers to dragon creatures, and the Watcher isn't exactly a dragon. I always understood that cold drakes were either dragons that couldn't breathe fire, or dragons that even had a frost breath, similar to the white dragons of D&D (though I lean toward the former).
I took creatures like the Watcher in the Water to be representations of primal chaos and fear, not unlike the Kraken, Leviathan, Scylla, Charybdis, or even Cthulhu.
Whatever it was the Watcher was sentient enough to be drawn to the power of the ring, it seized Frodo first from among the others and perhaps had been stirred up by the will of Sauron.
My theory: the nameless things are creatures of the void much like Ungoliant, things that existed before the creation of Arda. When Illuvitar created the earth, some of these void creatures were buried deep under the earth, near the earth's core even, bit by bit they took physical forms, unaware of the creatures above that they could draw inspiration from like Ungoliant had with spiders, the nameless things were bizarre, grotesque monstrosities.
Why didn't they make their way to the surface? Likely because of Illuvitar and the Valar, they know the world is not eternal and are waiting for the end times when they can finally escape their earthen prison.
Will they join Morgoth when he returns? Maybe, but Ungoliant was temporarily Morgoth's ally, not his servant, and its possible these void creatures will side with Morgoth to get vengeance for their imprisonment, though they might just use the opportunity to escape and get out of dodge while the Valar and Illuvitar are distracted.
I think these creatures will vanish or get killed nothing can escape from eru he’s god
void is eternal. Void is endless. Void devours all.
No mortals, angels or demons, no gods will escape. The Void beckons, and the void consumes.
Thanks for the theory! That was very interesting and subsequently an entertaining read (:
With you on this. We have a story written by Elves. That is not to say it is ALL the story.
I wonder if the Noldor ever grilled Manwë on all this. Probably not.
@@ahmedst5735 so He says.
my theory is that they are a product of the discord of melkor in the music of eru but even melkor didnt know they were there
I agree with this theory, it's most likely possible.
Of course, not all products of the Discord of Melkor were evil. Hey dol, merry dol, ring-a-ding dillo!
I like to think of the nameless things as something beyond our comprehension. Like in our own lives at the bottom of the deepest oceans. Whatever they are, they are so terrifying and formidable that two maiar didn't even stick around to better aquaint themselves.
They are likely monstrously huge and just stay in the depths, never coming into the light of day...perhaps not until the end of times. I too have wondered if Morgoth knew of them and if they were of his making
It could be a possibility that Morgoth created the nameless things because in the Silmarillion, when the Valar first capture Morgoth, they did not inspect his fortress and thus many evil things survived and came forth again. I remember the book describing how the fortress just went down and down into the darkness and had so many areas for evil creatures to hide. The nameless things could have been something Morgoth started on but never finished. In his absence, they probably continued on by themselves downwards into the dark and made their way over to the mountains, under Moria. Perhaps Morgoth originally used them to create tunnels for his fortress and dig down for him so he could expand and create his army.
Hmm good theory.
Apparently Utumno was so big that when it was besieged the valar could not find sauron in the endless vaults and tunnels of the fortress. I like the idea that they were Morgoths experiments to they to defeat the valar but failed
These things are older than Sauron who existed before the creation of the world, these things might have existed before the story started.
Yesss a new video!! Thank you for gracing us with your presence once again loremaster!
7:52 that's the William Blake painting "The Great Red Dragon and the Woman Clothed in the Sun"
I would subscribe to the theory that the Nameless Things were a ressult of Melkor’s discord within the Music of the Ainur. It is indicated that these creatures had an ill hatred for all things, good and evil, and therefore would hate even Melkor. I would think that if these were direct inventions of Melkor, they would not hate him (at least not with the aggression as they have been presented with). That they were the outcome of Melkor’s discord would make sense, as the Nameless Things would be only fragments of his thought that remained in Arda when it was made. Also, if the Nameless Things were of Melkor’s will and making, why were they forgotten? Why were they only found at the deepest places in Arda? There is really no connection between them and Melkor, other than the speculation that because they are foul beings, they would have to be the spawn of Melkor. I think the theory in Melkor’s discord would be plausible, for then they would be a twisted creation without intention (which would explain their very wrong nature). I can imagine, since the Music were intended to be perfect, the discord spoiled it from being so and as a result, the Nameless Things existed in Arda.
"In that despair my enemy was my only hope, and I pursued him, clutching at his heel." It's chilling that gandalf would find relief in chasing the ballrog as he was lost in the tunnels
Sounds like a nod to Lovecraft's worldbuilding and his short story "The Unnamable" (1925). "It was everywhere - a gelatin - a slime; a vapor; - yet it had shapes, a thousand shapes of horror beyond all memory. There were eyes - and a blemish. It was the pit - the maelstrom - the ultimate abomination. Carter, it was the unnamable!" Good video though. Cthulhu fhtagn!
Yes I'm glad someone else sees the Lovecraftian aspect to this. What if Lovecraft was inspired by the nameless things and expanded upon it or vise versa Tolkien wanted to include the idea of the Unnameable in his works because Lovecraft inspired him.
@@striderman-I think maybe they inspired each other. Since Tolkien also read sci-fi, and Lovecraft also read fantasy.
I do love the mystery of the nameless things. I dont know about the theory about the Watcher being a cold drake. But I do subscribe to the theory the watcher is a nameless thing because... it doesnt have a name. Its in the book at balins tomb where its called "the watcher in the water" which in my eyes is a description not a name. Thus a nameless thing.
I would love to think they are some great evil but they are more than likely just unknown creatures to the free peoples.
The theory I have is they could be Lovecraftian type creatures so indescribable that just the very sight of them would drive a person mad. They could be something so incomprehensible a name would not justify what it is. I like this a lot. Could you imagine a Tolkien Lovecraft crossover
What if the entities of Lovecraft were indeed the nameless things? How would the wars of the Lamps, Powers, and Beleriand play out if those such as Hastur, Cthulhu, Shub Nigurath, Yogg Sothoth or even Azathoth fought under the banner of Melkor?
There are even parallels between the Legendarium and Myths of Cthulhu.
Azathoth under the banner of Melkor? The outer gods are far more powerful than than the Maia.
@@30noir More likely shoggoths.
I was thinking just that!
There's a book about that, 'dead but dreaming' by Tracy Twynan.
I am glad for this post. I always enjoy new content!
I'd guess that Morgoth/Mordoc warped some innocent forms of living creatures into some foul form of life ; like turning whales or squids into sea monsters, or elephants or rhinos into some sort of fell beasties.
Melkor unknowingly sung them into existence in the Ainulindalë.
What excellent work! I really enjoy your videos and I really appreciate all your hard work on these!!
I personally really like the topic of the nameless things, keep up with the good work mate.
I think that such nameless things, that may be "independent" from Eru's creation, need not be malevolent, and maybe Tom Bombadil is also such a being.
Doubt it, Eru is basically the God portrayed by the lore of Elves, so nothing is truly independent from his design. Iluvatar said to Melkor before he brought the music of the Ainur into being that nothing is truly outside his design.
That is what we call bullshit theory. Eru is God in Tolkien world, nothing exist that did not have Source in him.
@@loganw1232 so the big spider is from his design? I doubt that
Nothing is independent from Eru
Ooooooh boy we’re getting Lovecraftian
I doubt Tolkien knew oh Lovecraft’s works, but I think they are of a similar ken to them. Ancient evils from another time in existence, lovecraftian in nature.
Hard to say if he knew of Lovecraft are not. I know there's a letter from the mid-60's where Tolkien mentions enjoying some of Howard's Conan stories. But I don't know anyone knows if he was aware of that genre of writers before he wrote LOTR or not.
Last I recall it was something along the line of a choir being creation and nameless things being the off-notes that occur when good and evil music tried to harmonize.
So take every conflicting noise and how they make you feel, and from each conflict comes some unknown, unnamed anomaly. Not wholly evil, certainly not good, basically just something that "is" and likely can't be unmade in a meaningful way.
Something utterly unlike harmonious life:it doesn't breathe, doesnt need to digest to live, doesnt need to see or feel - something driven by purpose wholly foreign to us, if it has any conscious purpose at all.
They exist outside the conflicts of the younger races and have their own machinations they dedicate all their time to: no need to sleep, no need to communicate, just endless action towards a purpose we'd never know.
By all measure: mystery, but terrifying.
It's not impossible but I don't think that Lovecraft had yet gained much popularity by the time Tolkien's writings were being published. It's hard to say but these are very very Lovecraftian in their description and lore.
I see where WarCraft got their idea for the nameless ones.
That's a distinct possibility. THere's also the works of H.P Lovecraft which are where the Old gods come from.
Or Old Gods even.
It cam from H.P. Lovecraft, who came before Tolkien. Besides, one of the old gods of WoW is similar H.P. Lovecraft, such as Yogg-Soron which they named as Yogg-Saron
Warcraft and WoW's background is cobbled together from different settings:
H.P. Lovecraft, Greek mythology, Norse Mythology, Egyptian mythology, Tolkien, D&D, Warhammer fantasy (green Orcs) and lots of other stuff and myth.
Lots of fantasy is ofcourse, but Warcraft hides it really really bad.
Not to say that Warcraft 1, 2 and 3 are bad games and neither was WoW. Was....
I always thought they were supposed to be WoWs take on Mind Flayers.
I think it would be cool to explore more of these strange obscure creatures
In my opinion, this should’ve been the plot for The New Shadow, the nameless things being discovered by the dwarves on accident, therefore a new and dangerous threat invades Middle Earth, uniting dwarves and men once more for a new epic battle.
Considering these are also creations from Morgoth, a New Shadow arises.
The mysteries of Middle-Earth fascinate me. I know you have covered Tom Bombadil, how about Beorn? Its never explained why he can shapeshift or how his lineage fits in with the rest of men, particularly are there any links in his heritage to the Edain?
Similar to the creation of other primordial evils, I think that these creatures were corrupted from the discord created by Melkor during the song of creation. Melkor didn't specifically make them, but they were corrupted beings that come from the void of similar kind as Ungoliant. Most of these creatures seemed to hate any light as light signified the power of Eru, so they all fled to the deep, dark places of the world never to be seen again by mortals until possibly the watcher.
Melkor might have had a hand in creating them or letting them come into physical form in some way, but it's clear that he could not control them directly for his own plans. They were far removed from anything happening in the surface so Sauron didn't even know or would have cared much since he only wanted to control things.
Tolkien was a master of alluding to things that were extremely interesting. The Nameless Things are only mentioned a handfull in the entire Legendarium and he chose to keep them a mystery and thus ripe for brainstorming.
To those who think Tolkien is nodding to Lovecraft, no, it is more a moment when Tolkien thought LIKE Lovecraft, imagining incomprehensible things that would give an angel existential, cosmid dread. That is not dead which can eternal lie...
Reminds me of Babylon 5. G'Kar: There are things in the universe that are billions of years older than either of our races.They are vast, timeless.And if they are aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants. And we have as much chance of communicating as an ant has with us. We know. We've tried. And we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot, or be stepped on. They are a mystery. And I am both terrified and reassured to know that there are still wonders in the universe. That we have not yet explained everything.
This is Really well done! Since my channel dose a lot in LOTRO I love that you did a Video on these! I think it's so cool to think that Tolkien even has Creatures of thedarkness I feel almost they could be of the "Void" Almost a peer darkness of corruption in his stories. Very cool nice video friend!
Nice video! I think they may have been the Discord of Melkor incarnated, like the theory that Ungoliant is and that Tom Bombadil is the music of the ainur.
Love the connection of how there’s many undiscovered places and creatures on Middle Earth, just like our world itself. Cause who knows what’s in these oceans of ours!
Finally get a chance to watch this and so excited to see it
And I was not disappointed. Amazing work as always my friend
The guy who runs the TH-cam page the red book posted a video on these 6 days ago and his video is pretty dang good and some more interesting theorys on them too.he has a different look on it and it's fun to compare the two.
I think it is a shame that a giant channel like this posted the exact same topic so close as well. More people will click this and not watch the other ----- and I think the other video is more interesting tbh.
@@amandaroberts2069 Steven from the Red Book and I are great friends. Sometimes though, all of us Tolkien channels run into accidentally releasing the same content, but we always remain civil and friendly about it! I've been planning to release this one on Halloween for a few months so it would not have been fair to myself and you all to change it because another channel posted a similar video. I hope that makes sense and I hope everyone checks his video out as well! He's a great guy and an excellent Tolkien scholar.
I see them as part of the discordant elements of the Song of Creation (similar to the theories surrounding Tom Bombadil and Ungoliant). They were essentially glitches in the creation story.
Me too. Most likely.
The Nameless Things are probably some of the more creepy things in Middle-Earth? Why? We barely know anything about them. Tolkien basically left it up to the reader’s imagination on what these creeps are.
Well if you want more information Men of the West you should check out another Lotr historian youtuber called: "The Red Book" He has a bit more information on the Nameless Things you can check out.
There is a possibility that the Nameless Things may not be of Melkor's direct creation but something that has that spawned into existence after the corruption of the music of creation by Melkor. A evil that does not serve the Dark Lord but themselves, forever uncaring of the world above them but mysterious. A largely unknown force almost eldritch like that may be known as nameless gods to some.
The Red Book did great in his "What are the Nameless Things?" video.
@@Enerdhil
Well enjoy.
It could be that the nameless things came into existence just in the act of Morgoth creating a hindrance for Erome just as the two trees of Valinor came about when Yavanna was chanting/singing and Nienna’s tears were watering the moss.
Amazing work yoysten I am halfway through unfinished tales and I am learning about the downfall of nùmenor do you have a video on that topic and great video as always friend I used to know nothing about this thank you for expanding my knowledge on my favourite franchise
My friend, I believe the video you're looking for is called "The Rise and Downfall of Númenor- Region Spotlight". Great one from Yoysten.
Hi, Yoystan, great video as always!
I'm not super well versed in all of the Tolkein lore, but is it possible that these Nameless Things are creatures similar to Ungoliant? Primordial beings that exist within arda before the Valar even arrived to shape it. They seem to fit that description of such creatures, dark and powerful, hidden from the world at large, and while maybe not inherently evil definitely antagonistic to the peoples of Middle Earth.
Waiting really really long time for your video on Nameless Things
How can the Watcher in the Water be a "cold drake" with that many arms? Even the dragons of Middle Earth have some form of consistency to their forms. These "Nameless Things" are more chaotic, primordial, and eldritch than anything above the surface of Middle Earth.
The Watcher is a hentai monster.
"They are evil like Morgoth, but not of Morgoth, not of his kin. They would not bend to his will, for all evil hates, and they hated him to."
I forgot where I heard this.
As G'Kar once said "I am both terrified and reassured that there are still mysteries in the universe, that we have not yet explained everything......"
I like the theory i have heard that beings like Ungoliant, Tom Bombadeil, and the nameless things are enigmas/ beings that came into existence because of the music of the Aniur.
Awesome Halloween special Yoystan
Happy Halloween and lovely content. Something interesting we did over at simarillion TW was add a nameless beast ;)
Great video as always, thanks!
I agree the Nameless Things were most likely made by Melkor/Morgoth in Arda's earliest days by perverting other creatures. They weren't suitable in the long run for Morgoth's plans so he just abandoned them and they fled into deep, dark places, possibly when the Two Lamps were first lit. Great video!
"We don't need to look for aliens in outer space, they already exist in the dark depths of the ocean."- Dr. Emily Zarka from Monstrum: The Kraken
I like your take on this. Very nicely done.
I've always liked the idea of them coming from the primordial soup of the multiverse rather than one specific creator. I like the "terrifying unforeseen consequences" of creating life, take.
Wow! I went looking for info on the nameless things just by coincidence and this video was posted less than a day ago. I only realized when I checked after I heard your Halloween greeting. Happy Halloween BTW :)
An excellent explanation. Your ideas make sense and follow Tolkien's spiritual parallels between his faith and his writings.
I love random monsters. I wish we knew more about all these guys. Great video.
They seem to be enigmatic by design. The whole concept of unknown and unknowable terrors lying far beyond the reaches of even the dark Lord himself is far more bone chilling than anything you could actually say to describe them. It really lends a sense of awe, eternity, and otherworldliness about Gandalf’s whole subterranean journey.
2:30 Awesome video as always, but I think the Balrog didn't reignite until they came out into the open on top of Silvertine
That was a great video for a cool theory
What if the nameless things are Morgoth's failed attempts to actually create life as Iluvitar did? Like he used the void to try and recreate the secret fire & the nameless things are the result?
It's stated in the book that Morgoth cannot create life, only corrupt life.
@@Sykohsis I know that. You really didn't understand what I said did you?
@@BigBWolf90 I do. They're alive meaning he didn't create them. Good chance they're corrupted beings due to Morgoth.
He couldnt game the big spider, which is a being from the void, I doubt he can control the void
I checked out Lord of Maps. Thought it would be a cool xmas gift for the wife. Turns out, most don't come with frames and you'll be paying almost as much in shipping as you do for the map itself.
I think that, like Ungoliant, they formed as clouds of hate in the void, and then seeped into the fabric of Arda, coagulating as the nameless horrors of the deep under the misty mountains.
The unconscious response to the unknown tends to be fear and frightful imaginings. A conscious response is to prepare to see, or choose to let it remain unknown.
The Red Book covered this a few days ago as well.
Should be thanking red book for the video inspiration
Releasing in the same week is suspect.
@@amandaroberts2069 for real, straight clickbait knowing everyone wants to know, but well never know what they are.
Aside this I like the content
I wonder if Tolkien read any Lovecraft? They definitely have that sort of feel
I've always assumed these were creations devised by Ulmo. They're chaotic and feared by Gandalf and Sauron, and Melkor (maybe?)
Yeah, Melkor was more afraid of Ulmo than he was of Manwe because Ulmo couldn't be arsed.
Thank you again. Any time I find a Men of The West video, I know I am in for a good story and interesting comments. ❤️
Ive been waiting for this one!
My theory is that they existed before Eru created middle earth. Like he had his realm that the Velar exist in, and so maybe there was some void of blackness at the same time where he later made the world, and the world was laid atop them, and so they gnaw at it's base eating up to destroy what replaced their home, and make it like it was.
Men of the West, ya remember melkor can't create. He was limited to only being able to twist what was already created.
I don't think Melkor created the things. I think they're most likely not even evil, but spirits drawn to the physical realm as other spirits were. I don't think the Watcher is a thing, more likely a kraken caught and trapped by the goblin folk.
Hm, so are the nameless things different from void creatures?
From what I remember there where nameless beings near the area of the shire under the hills. They are also old but seem to be the same or similar age to middle earth themselves. Maybe Powerful but uninterested in the going ons of the world like Tom Bombadil.
Compared to the void creatures that came from outside the created world, a place where even melkor tried to find the fire of life.
TLDR: Nameless creatures are different from Void Creatures
What if Gandalf’s reference wasn’t necessarily an admission of some unknown creature but in fact his way of saying “I do not know who made these caves!”
So, when you refine ore, you end up with purified metal, but also leftover slag. In the laying of the foundation of the world, the Valar took the flesh of the earth and separated out those parts useful to the creatures to follow into veins to be discovered, mined, and used later. Melkor, either seeking praise or to demonstrate his prowess, took this process a step further than their guidance, and created an essence above all of the rest, mithril. But, in so doing, what was left were a baneful and malevolent spirits. Personified roots of the mountains, missing what would have sated them and kept them doing Eru's will, in holding up the world. And so they wander, with an undefined emptiness and resentment, grinding away at creation, and any that fall in their path.
I always like think that these creatures (and also Ungoliant) are "unintentional side products" of Melkor's discord in the music of the Ainur.
Yo those maps look fucking amazing!!!
Nameless things, things that cannot be named, quantified. It reminds me of you, Yoystan. I have no words for your magnificent voice, your stature I imagine, just all that you are. Oh Yoystan…
I always thought they were ancient spirits of malice who lived in Udun when Angband still existed who were cut off when Angband was raised by The Host of Valinor. That is how the Balrog of Moria was trapped below Moria until the Dwarves of Durin's line opened the deeps, freeing him from millennia of imprisonment.
Jostun I thought u did an excellent job. I am glad u mentioned that the four Valar were the ones who came first to shape the world. I agree with u full heartedly that Melkor created and placed them here before Sauron came to arda. I thought u did a great job on this happy Halloween
Outstanding video thanks 🙂👍🏻
This channel doesn’t like competition, eh?
I think the video released earlier in the week was a better one.
“The greatest emotion is fear, and the greatest fear of man is the fear of the unknown.”
-H.P. Lovecraft.
I’m paraphrasing, but that line is what comes to mind when I think of, read about, or hear about the Nameless Things.
Lovecraft entered the chat!
I love the use of LOTRO's representation of the deep, deep tunnels under Moria. The "nameless things" there are a little more like regular foes, but still are weird enough to work for now.
Following Occam razor i think the watcher is a nameless thing. It's on "guard" (maybe waiting for a prey like spiders do) to Moria's gate in a little lake. Gandalf was in the deep of misty mountains where he saw tunnels and underground rivers and lakes; so there is water. And this creatures digs through soil and stone. Maybe the watcher dug too up or followed an underground river that led to the surface (exiting in the lake). In a letter, Tolkien said that the identity of the Watcher was unknown for him and he wanted to leave the mystery on it. So I think that nameless things (a name in the book that gives a feeling of mystery for this creatures) are like Watcher in the water or similar or divided in some different races (tentacles, worms and similar)
About their origins, I think that they was created inadvertently by Morgoth when he came to arda from the dimension where Eru is, bringing the discordant note to the world. Probably Ungoliant was created in this way too. Furthermore i remember they are never mentioned in silmarillion while Dragons, Drakes, orks, trolls, werewolves, vampires are mentioned a lot. This is another prove that could confirm that Melkor didn't created them voluntarily otherwise they would be in Angband too or at least mentioned. Then they never took sides demonstrating that they are neutral beasts living only for eat (yes, like Ungoliant and her spawn) and their habitat is exactly the deep underground and probably the water.
What do you think about? ^_^°
Operating under the assumption that Arda is Morgoth’s Ring, in that he suffused his influence into the world (which thus explains why bad things happen in the world), what if the NTs are manifestations of that evil, just more concentrated?
My personal theory is that they have nothing to do with Melkor, the Music of the Ainur, or even Illuvatar. They are timeless things of the Void, separate and apart from anything else. Some happened to be “caught” in the World when the Ainur sang it into existence out of the Void, but, like Illuvatar, they are older even than the Ainur. That makes them completely, perfectly alien, far more than mere corrupted creations of Melkor.
Happy Halloween, Yoystan! Great topic!
Happy Halloween brother! Thank you so much!
There's also the fact Nameless Things can be a sort of Alien-like creatures that weren't made by the Valar, but are actually a leaked Essence of the Void that in time gave shape to these things.
The "Essence of the Void' is
a total lack of essence!
This is really well done! As a big LOTRO player I loved this.
Yo the colorado map is hella sick, way to represent my home state porper!
So hyped for this ngl 😂
Lord of Maps looks amazing!
I don't think Melkor made the Nameless Things, at least not with the intent that such a statement suggests. If indeed he made them, it is almost certain that they are accidents or byproducts of his discord, rather than being his actual creations. If he had made them knowingly, then he would have made more use of them in the wars of the First Age. Given that Ungoliant and the Watcher of the Water are almost certainly among them, beings so wild and wholly unlike the easily-controlled servants that were Melkor's later creations such as orcs except in their foul nature, seems to suggest that he did not personally make them so much as make them possible.
The Nameless things are most likely of the same origins as Ungoliant. Dark fawl spirits that entered Arda from the depths of the Void. Probably they were originally dark thoughts that emanated from Melkor when he rebelled in mind and thought against Eru. When he went alone into the void to contemplate his own frustrating desire to create on his own. These frightening debased beings might have seeped from Melkor's blasphemous wants.