Boston vs Toronto - Which City has Better Transit?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 29 ก.ย. 2024
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Boston and Toronto are two of North America's greatest cities, but how do their rail transit systems stack up? Find out in the latest edition of Transit Battle!
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The problem with Boston and MA at-large, is that far too many residents lost ambition to dream large on infrastructure after The Big Dig. It needs to change because the metro area grew a bunch in the 15ish years after that; basically reached capacity and is now shrinking. More housing and more transit is needed today.
That’s not just Boston though. The Big Dig was just the nail in the coffin. The US stopped dreaming big infrastructure wise when Kennedy got shot and the door really closed on it when Reagan beat Carter.
the problem is the taxes. Flat tax of 5% property tax cap of 2.5% Look at New Jersey, the average property tax rate is 4x higher than Boston's. the state has no money for expansions and we have to beg the federal government for paltry handouts and projects get shelved if we dont get them because we have no will to self-fund
The Big Dig was originally supposed to include a rail line to connect the two commuter systems. Reagan killed that part.
I think it’s really because anyone west Worcester doesn’t care whatsoever about transit. And people outside of Boston don’t care that much, yet the MBTA is state funded. So that’s the problem: Most voters could care less about the T
@@gunadz I don't really think thats the problem - there is *tons* of funding for transit in the US, far more than most other countries, but the projects are so expensive that the nation just gets a lot less for its money.
Had Boston gone through with the Urban Ring Project and the North/South Rail link, they'd be in contention for the best transit in America right now (as well as the electrification of their entire commuter rail network).
This kind of videos are so much fun, please do one about Santiago de Chile in the future
Santiago (Chile) vs Kuala Lumpur (Malaysia)! ♥
The Toronto train stations look so clean compared to Boston. Where’s all the grime?
Wonder why Boston subways use RED marker lights at the front of the train going forward? Must be a legacy reason for this since it is contrary to railway marker / class lights virtually everywhere else (White, green, even blue going forward, and always red at the rear as a stop signal for a following train).
Great video, nice details about both systems
5 minutes ago is wild
I just arrived at Boston with my father and was trying to get to my hotel sooner, but I just found out that they shut down the red line because it was not working
Toronto definitely has the better transit system ..
Both wrong - it is Philly 😅
Please make a video about Israel's public transportation given the small size of Israel. I believe the Israel public transportation system is one of the best in the world.
Far from it. Low frequency. Odd locations of stations, few routes relative to population, subway/metro systems?! C'mon. Switzerland runs rings around it without trying.
I lived in Israel for 3 years. Within the last 5 years, Israel has made big progress with high-speed rail. now you can go from Jerusalem to Ben Gurion Airport in 25 minutes. Tel Aviv has recently completed a new light rail line with plants to add new lines. I want her Reece Martin opinion
@@svartmetall48To be fear I don't know much about switchland transportation
I can already see that video’s comment section: total shitshow.
It’s definitely getting better
Boston is just begging for some actual ambition in its transit plans. The only city with land use better suited to transit is New York, and obviously, the scope of transit is on wildly different scales between the two of them. The Red-Blue connector, regional rail plans, and the North-South Rail Link all should've been built DECADES ago.
Not just decades, 112 years ago. The north-south link was first officially proposed in 1912.
Unfortunately MA politicians have quietly killed the NSRL after the 2018 feasibility study. They’re now pushing for a South Station expansion instead 😢
For sure, and new subway lines should be in the plans - there are many more colors!
Not only are there more colors, but plans for a circle line were proposed by the MBTA years ago, and have continued to gain zero traction despite massive public support!
@@GeoMeridium technically one did exist back then, but for freight. The Union freight line used to run down Atlantic avenue and causeway street under the elevated until all the maritime traffic died down.
boston vs toronto - which city has more slow zones🤔
Slow zones are just damage control, they have to do necessary work, boston
@@bbriyes they are a symbol of procrastination and incompetence of the transit agencies. Cities that have actually good public transportation don't have slow zones because they actually maintain their infrastructure on time, and don't wait until the system is actually falling apart.
BOSTON!!! But I've been on the Red Line lately and its getting better. Slow zones are temporary though
@@graffmixer Lately it's toronto IMO. Idk if you've seen the latest maps from toronto but they're not good. Boston's repair process is largely complete at this point though some of the most important segments remain on the red line
Sad
The Boston green line extension + community path wombo combo has been life changing
@@shaye21 - Just wish we could have gotten an additional path along the Medford branch. Ah well.
Its good, but it could have been so much better if not for the massive cost problems!
@@RMTransit Cost and corruption problems.
I’ve been riding the MBTA since 1971 and I’ve seen the triumphs and failures of that system. There are two things that have held back the MBTA. First is a “not invented here” syndrome. They are NOT good at taking cues from other systems. Example: Walk-through trains? They say they can’t work in Boston because of old tunnels and sharp turns - yet Dublin, a city that was settled over a millennium before Boston, didn’t let that get in the way (nor have other European cities). Corruption and costs are the other roadblock. The MBTA used to be known as “Mister Bulger’s Transportation Authority” for the State Senate President (dubbed a “corrupt midget” by one judge) whose brother was an FBI-10-Most-Wanted mobster.
These things collided to make the reason that Boston can’t come into the 21st Century. The North South Rail Link project would connect North and South Stations, allow through-running, creating a regional rail system of superb quality and, with electrification, could give you the equivalent of 12 new rapid transit lines for the cost of a couple of 2nd Avenue Subway stations. Transportation experts show that the costs are feasible but the MBTA makes it’s own study that a child could poke holes in to say it’s too expensive - and since the Big Dig scared everyone with it’s costs 20+ years ago, nothing happens in Boston despite the fact that we can see what it did for Philadelphia.
They don’t want to string wire so we get Yet Another New Tech Toy in battery trains now in the offing. They’ve put off the Blue Line extension to Lynn for DECADES. They can’t even dig a couple hundred meters of tunnel to connect the only two lines that don’t have an interchange (Red & Blue) without claiming it will cost more than the entire system - even though half the tunnel was dug 100 years ago.
I don’t know what kind of brain parasite has infected the MBTA but it’s certainly multi-generational and has kept the MBTA as the number one enemy of itself.
Sounds like Baltimore, except we have the state of Maryland to thank for that because "Baltimore is a parasite we can't allow to spread across the Old Line State" and must be contained & confined
London's Metropolitan line has literally the oldest metro tunnels in the world, and has walk through trains. so, yeah. lol. I'm not sure about the sharp turns though. That could be a valid point, but you could always make shorter carriages. It's not such an issue with walk through trains. I mean....trams do pretty tight turns and they are nearly all walkthrough.
Dublin doesn’t have a metro yet? It only has those long trams of Luas and those don’t have underground sections. So i’m not sure what the correlation is, the Green Line trolleys cause those are getting longer low floor trains
@@TheRandCrews - MBTA spokespeople say that Boston has curves that are too tight because it's an old city. When I rode the LUAS, the curves there were just as tight as Boston or more so given how much older the city was. It's just that the MBTA throws out nonsense excuses for why something can't be done all the time. Excuses that don't even stand up to a moment's worth of examination.
Just letting you know of one city that doesn’t have a N/S rail link is Paris and they get by just fine
Transit battle ideas:
- Bangkok vs Jakarta (two Southeast Asian megacities with up and coming rapid transit systems)
- São Paulo vs Buenos Aires (or Mexico City)
- Sydney vs Melbourne
- Hong Kong vs Singapore (two world renowned transit systems in city-states)
- Tokyo vs Seoul
- Tokyo vs Osaka
Athens vs Lisbon mayhaps?
I thought he already did HK vs SG. But I think it was taken down.
@@Ruzzo14He took down quite a few videos in the great RMTransit purge
Sydney easily beats Melbourne, Melbourne still has 40 minute frequencies for some reason. Melbourne manages to have worse frequencies than Perth, a city half the size.
Tokyo > Seoul, but this might not be true in a few years due to how quickly they're building
Tokyo > Keihanshin
@@illiiilli24601 Regarding Sydney and Melbourne, it depends on the line. Some are every 10 minutes.
3-1 lead for Toronto. We'll blow this one too
@@bosssauce9160 well played sir. Well played
Boston REALLY needs the North-South Rail Link (commuter tunnel) and an overhaul (electrification, QoL improvements, increased frequency) to it’s Commuter Rail
It would be useful, but a big part of the issue is even when some of these things happen they happen in bad ways - for example the Fairmount electrification being with battery trains and running every ?20? mins.
for sure! just a 2 mile or so train tunnel through downtown Boston would change everything. There could be through-running service so the Commuter Rail doesn’t have to always terminate downtown, more frequent service to all lines, and a new connection between the CR and the Blue Line at Aquarium. It would be expensive, but totally worth it in the long run
I have been on every Toronto bus and I think that busses should have been their own category.
I agree. And while Toronto has those suburban buses (such as Viva and Go), Boston has express buses (that I rode once!) in the 500 series, only downside....express buses have a higher fare in Boston despite being "integrated" under the MBTA umbrella
For me, Toronto would win another point if buses were a separate category!
I agree. Trains > Subways > Trams > Busses - each deserve their due and analysis. If it means that Toronto does an even greater smackdown of Boston in a transit contest, tough. Also, I would suggest that rather than do rating of 1 or 0, give them value ratings, so like Boston Trams get a 4, Toronto gets a 3. etc.
My ratings:
Boston / Toronto
Trains: 4 / 3 (being on NE Corridor FTW, but GO is improving)
Subways: 3 / 4.5 (TTC is going to be a 5 soon)
Trams: 4 / 2 (TTC Trams are useless. If I was into jogging, I'd be faster.)
Busses: 3 / 5 (TTC busses are amazing compared to MBTA)
Other factors: 2 / 3 (TTC is going up, MBTA is treading water, and battery trains are stupid)
results: 16 / 17.5
@@RMTransit- Try Boston again once the bus network redesign is all wrapped up. Tons of changes have been in the works both in terms of built infrastructure and routes. More than doubling the amount of routes with headways at or under 15 minutes throughout the entire day.
@@gunadz It's not comparable as someone who moved from toronto, commuted in toronto by bus (1.5 - 2 hours each way by TTC from Finch to Pearson) I got a chance to see the 10 minute bus network introduced in 2015. the express bus network in 2017. I also got to see Viva BRT in york region
Toronto put forward 52 routes into it's
MBTAs rail is worse, they should get stadler trains, electrify the network and connect the north and south networks
As a Torontonian who just moved to Boston, this is a fantastically timed video
Yeee welcome, don't rely on the buses in Boston. I used to wonder why Americans were so ambivalent on buses and transfers after living in toronto with the 10 minute bus network, and it's because buses here come every 45 minutes and you cry when you miss transfers
I hope you enjoy!
@@hutima2 not everywhere! In Utah, the suburban buses come every 39 minutes. Sometimes even every 15!!! GASP Now that Im thinking about it thats not much better lmao
More derailments: Boston
More trains breaking down: Boston
More trains on fire: Boston
More broken train-car doors: Boston
More unplanned service outages: Boston
More stops between stations due to congestion: Boston
More slow zones due to deferred track maintenance: Boston
More slow zones on new trackage due to incompetent construction contractors: Boston
More violations cited by their respective federal safety board: Boston
More filth: Boston
Worse stench: Boston
More shards of concrete falling on (or close to) commuters' heads: Boston (seriously, four times in different stations over the last year)
BOSTON WINS!!!
(And I say that as a Boston resident - I used to love the T, but in the last few years it’s felt like a total crapshoot whether you’ll even get to where you’re going.)
Seems like an odd comparison. Boston has fewer than 700k people in the city, and even if you include everything inside route 128, it's still half the size of Toronto population wise. Chicago is a better city to compare to Toronto imo. They're both on the great lakes and have more similar populations.
What are you on about? Boston has an urban population of a little over 4 million people, whilst Toronto has a little over 5.5 million people.
That's a much more fair comparison than Toronto vs Chicago (5.6 vs 8.7)
The communities surrounding Boston, especially to the west, are highly resistant to the change necessary for the system to become more modern. The state legislature also appeases residents outside the region and is overly focused on costs especially following the Big Dig. Our legislatures, state and local, just lacks the vision and risk-taking capacity that Boston and all its surrounding communities desperately needs.Missed opportunities.
Toronto has a stop named Old Cummer. Clearly wins on that alone. TTC: Ride the Rocket!
😂🤣 It wins on the slogan, too! 😝
I've never found it that funny!
As a local Bostonian the main issue with boston has been successive State level conservative administrations (odd for a state whose legislative body is almost entirely Democrats. .. But these Conservative governors have lead also to lack of funding.. This leaves the MBRA digging out of a 30 billion + hole and deficit…. that goes back to the BIG DIG….this will take time.. also we have a dumb law of “having to take the cheapest” bid..for things we buy. .not an option to Pay a bit more and get way better and being choosy about our rolling stock. This is why we ended up with minimum viable product with CRRC. They came in and low bid the process so we “had” to take them. Now with all the issues and problems as well as covid hitting at a bad time. and all the trains having manufacturing delays.. this isn’t a fun time for the MBTA.. understaffing was horribly bad as well. - Philip ANG is amazing and was the one that re-vitalized the Longisland RR.. and hes really working hard to get the MBTA out of its mess!.. And now that we have a State Gov. that actually cares about things like climate change and electrification / moderization and trying to get funding for the MBTA.. this hopefully will improve in the next 5 to 10 years.
there are more shots of the new MBTA Red Line trains than most riders have ever seen in person. we may be up to 2 (?) entire new trains now. the order was supposed to be completed years ago.
while governors like Weld and Baker (who got his start screwing the MBTA in Weld’s administration) are a huge problem, the other thing is that despite having a Democratic supermajority, the legislature is extraordinarily unproductive. so there’s just hadn’t been the political will to fix it for decades.
I thought "having to take the cheapest bid" was a federal law here in the US.
@@EdwardM-t8p maybe… might depend on funding sources though
As I understand, you can weight the lowest bid against things like track record and other non-monetary factors to decide whom to award the contract to. In this case, CRRC’s bid was frankly unrealistic and they had _no_ track record in the US.
The MBTA also *turned down federal funding* to get a “made in Mass” requirement, going above and beyond “buy American” provisions in federal law.
In 10 years I see Toronto having the best Transit in North America by a long shot
I've considered Boston's rapid transit to be many years behind the times. I was dismayed when they chose an "old" style for new Green Line trains rather than something sleek and modern. It will be many years before they electrify regional rail. Battery powered trains aren't the solution, and they siphon off funds and effort that should be expended on something more permanent. The MBTA has been chronically underfunded and mismanaged, so improvements have been painfully slow. They're still fixing things that have been broken or neglected for years.
Battery train are the right solution for low traffic short lines, not for high frequency lines! Battery train work well when frequencies are too low to justify electrication and the line is short enough to be run back and forth without intermediate charging. It's a good solution for peak only extension of electric service, not for regular use for not expend money on electrification.
@@d1234as I agree. There are special situations where electrification is impractical, and a battery-powered vehicle is the best choice. But a recent news article implied that battery engines were being proposed for one of the present commuter runs, which would be longer and higher frequency than what seems appropriate for them.
Without even watching the video, I'd say Toronto. At least Toronto's subway actually works while Boston's sets on fire and dies every few months.
I lived in Boston for years, recently went back to visit, and I lived in Toronto for two years and still live in the GTA. Toronto, in my opinion, has better transit and it is much better maintained. Some of Boston's trains screech and many on the red line move too slowly.
As a Boston resident, Toronto by miles 😂😂😂😂😂
Boston is a prime example of how the USA lose opportunities to build good transit. You have a good subway system, but the MBTA commuter lines are awful.
I was there a couple months ago and stayed on a city in the suburbs, I was shocked about the frequency of trains. 1 hour interval, sometimes two hours. Last train leaving 22:30-23:00. I mean, really? The city was a 20 minute ride from North Station. You have a huge opportunity of building housing around it and being close to Boston center.
I live in a suburb in São Paulo, we got trains every 7-8 minutes, all electric. Sure, Boston is smaller and doesn’t need that frequency, but it sure can do it better than what’s right now.
Improve the system, use electric trains (seriously, the trains are electric in São Paulo since the 60s and the fleet was all replaced beginning in 2010, even though the old fleet was still younger than the trains in the MBTA), have smaller intervals and encourage building housing around that to solve the housing shortage. (Apparently the state government tried to do that, but NIMBYs got in the way.)
Sad thing is the city is one of few good examples of good urban planning and good land use, but instead of building on that is stuck in neutral.
Thank you for an extremely interesting video.. I was surprised that you did not have separate 'rounds' for firstly buses, and secondly future developments.
On my judge's score card (sitting safely thousands of miles away on the other side of the Atlantic) I made it 4-1 to Toronto . The only round Boston won was trams/streetcars!
I agree Toronto has a better system than Boston and especially agree that Boston's MBTA isn't doing a good job looking to the future. The problem is that they can't afford to do a lot in the future due to the Big Dig debt that was forced on them.
The debt doesn't help, but they could be using their funds more effectively as well!
Part of the reason for that Big Dig debt are the huge cost inflation and overruns. In 1987 when Congress approved it as part of a national package over Reagan's veto the cost was estimated to be around $3 billion and it rapidly inflated to $14 billion. Factor in the interest and the total cost came out to be $22 billion! The state could have built a top of the line rapid transit and regional rail system for that kind of money!
Love your city profiles but could be improved by some data... total ridership, % of trips and VKTs per mode etc.
I feel like you kinda over hyped the green line. While it may be better than Toronto it’s by no means high speed in the underground portions. Trains are constantly stuck waiting in the tunnels for trains ahead to clear because all 4 branch lines converge between Copley and govt center. 3/4 branches are not grade separated and run similarly to the ttc, so on branches like the C, you are stoped at every intersection then you go underground and you are stoped before every station for other trains.
Orange and Green go the same places downtown and I'll take Orange every time. (although since the OL shutdown two years ago, I just bike mostly)
@@keithmcmanus2406 the green line is the most convenient for me where I am rn, but its always a pain trying to get anywhere, luckily I live along the D line which makes things better
As a resident of the city of Boston who has been suffering the worst of the past few years, I already know the answer is Toronto. The real question are the gritty details on "Why".
Toronto is a true modern city with the continuous, sprawling population density that necessitates high quality transit.
But the underlying fuel for Toronto's transit and density growth is a hyperinflated real estate market. Toronto's incomes are half of boston/ MA, yet property in Toronto is more expensive. This makes it easy to build new skyscrapers and fund transit upgrades, but people in Toronto experience low quality of life in other ways.
@@FullLengthInterstates housing construction does fund transit in Toronto. most of and sometimes all the money comes from the federal and provincial governments
I think just comprehensively better service, infrastructure and attention to detail - transit policy is made in a practical way (i.e. not testing running buses with no fares on various routes for vibes)
I've lived in Toronto and visited Boston, and I will say I really love Boston. The architecture in Boston is amazing and Boston's freeway network is pretty puny compared to the 401, 407, and Gardiner Expressway. Boston I felt was much more pleasant to walk through, too. But Boston has completely neglected their transit system in recent years. Hopefully once they put some more emphasis on MBTA, that city will flourish because it definitely has a lot of potential.
Boston is a far smaller, more walkable city, so that generally levels the playing field where MBTA screws up religiously to provide adequate service.
Toronto is better(*), but reaching many locations in the GTA region, relying solely on transit, is a task in itself.
That's one thing I loved about visiting Boston. We walked everywhere and the town has a fun vibe to it. Lots of cool looking blocks. I didn't need to ride the subway even I could have.
Honestly Boston has the bones of a great transit system - especially for a city of its size - but decades of underfunding and mismanagement have left most of that potential unrealized. Though fortunately Phil Eng has done an incredible job getting things back on track at least on the management side of things - funding is another story and unfortunately out of his control.
From my perspective, there are three projects that would turn Boston into a great transit city that would hold its own compared to almost any system:
1. Convert the commuter rail into electrified, frequent (~15-20min headway) regional rail
2. North South Rail Link for through running regional service
3. Some form of proper orbital service. Ideally a heavy rail ring metro, but even a light rail line or two would be a massive win.
Kind of like you mentioned - while exact technology isn’t the most important thing and battery train service isn’t totally ideal, it’s at least a solid first step towards a real regional rail model, and it will undeniably be much better than the diesel locomotive monstrosities we’re still running on the commuter rail. It’s just really exciting to finally see some progress on this front.
One thing I think could be a fascinating video topic someday would be on the MBTA’s plan for partial electrification of our commuter rail network. It’s a topic that will surely be popping up quite a bit with the increasing popularity of battery trains. And while there are clear trade offs vs full electrification, I personally feel there’s a lot of real merit in the plan - namely in the amount of pure bureaucracy that could be skipped. It’s estimated that a partial electrification plan would call for 50% less catenary needing to be strung up and a whopping 90+% reduction in clearance projects (ie tunnels, overpasses, bridges, etc) that would need to be undertaken. I think it’s a plan that could give the MBTA a lot more power in being at least somewhat autonomous and *actually* just get it done.
Regardless, great video as always.
I honestly think that the orbital service could be achieved with the extension of SL3.
1. Extend the current alignment in Chelsea to somerville along a new busway.
2. Somehow link that to the harvard bus tunnel with some sort of dedicated right of way (center running on mass ave?)
3. Replace the 1 bus running from harvard to Nubian with right of way improvement (ideally dedicated lanes that are blocked from car traffic)
4. Replace SL4 and SL5 running from Nubian downtown
5. (the expensive part) extend the south station silver line tunnel to so portal on washington street in chinatown so that the two ends can meet and complete the loop.
6. Do something about the Chelsea st bridge (ideally a new tunnel linking the East Boston section directly onto the Chelsea busway.
6. Massively expand frequency.
It wouldn't be trivial and would require some new infrastructure. But it seems way more likely to actually happen than building an orbital heavy rail route which would almost certainly have to be deep bored as there's really no alignment where it could be built elevated that wouldn't require taking homes / destroying historic parts of cambridge, both of which will ~ never happen politically.
I think setup could be future improved with
1. Dedicated airport tunnel and underground segment in East Boston (hopefully linking directly with airport terminals and the tunnel to bypass the Chelsea st bridge).
2. Cut and cover tunnel between Harvard and Nubian.
3. Cut and cover tunnel between Nubian and South Station under washington street.
MBTA doesnt even need to do anything to electrify providence line, its already there
@@aminsennour5571 Fully agree on your critique of the actual logistics on an orbital heavy rail ring line. I simply mentioned it because in a just world that’s what it *should* be.
Love the idea as well of making the 1 bus route into a true brt route - it is the most bunched bus route in the whole system - and honestly I think the long term goal should be light rail as I think it would have the capacity to support it. Dream would be extending it from Harvard to Watertown as well.
Been to both, Toronto blew me away, Boston reminded me of what we have in NY except for the Green Line, that was pretty cool. Boston does need to connect North and South Stations, that would change the region.
Unfortunately, I don’t see any major expansions of the Boston transit system happening anytime in the next few decades. At most, the Blue Line will be extended from Bowdoin to Charles/MGH and perhaps some new train sets will be ordered but that’s about it. The fact that Boston can’t seem to build a tunnel between North and South stations to create a true regional rail system is demonstrative of the lack of interest in major transit infrastructure upgrades in the Boston area.
You should do dc vs Bay Area
I think the Bay Area would lose, but there are a lot of things in the works to improve things.
@@barryrobbins7694 I think so too but being from dc I’m only really familiar with Bart and I’m curious how muni would affect it.
@@car_tar3882 San Francisco itself has a good transit system. BART provides a good transit backbone for the Bay Area. I always wished it looped the bay as originally planned. It wasn’t that long ago that the largest city (San Jose) wasn’t even part of the system. The process of better integrating fare payments and transfer schedules between transit agencies will improve things, not to mention a second transbay tube.
9:30 its so interesting to me that you mention you find the GO trains to look almost like something you could find in Europe, just as I, a European, was thinking "why are those trains so massive and square, something like that would never fly in Europe"
Exactly, you would not find a train that tall in europe, due to loading gauge. Of course more space the better, for things like bikes. Ive seen europeans complain about how their trains have no space
The go trains look an awful lot like a lot of the rer trains in Paris
@@SaumonMirshahi Funny thing is the GO trains were made by a now french company, previously french-canadian
@@SaumonMirshahiThey look like similar to the Alstom Trains built for Belgium the M7s
That's not what he said. He said the cab cars could almost look at home in Europe. Which is true, the design is much more European than what's found on most NA commuter trains.
We should have highspeed rail from Windsor to Quebec City. This would be a massive boon for the economy!
This idea has been around for as long as I have been alive, and I am old. I don't think I will see it in my lifetime.
expanding local transit would boost the economy more
We need gotrain to Windsor period
The problem with highspeed rail between Windsor and QC City is you need a city that draws people between the two ends for it to be financially viable. There is no draw for people to take a train to Windsor/Detroit. I'm sorry if you live near this area but no; people don't want to go there (return trips don't count!). We had this problem with the highspeed catamaran-type boat service between Toronto and Rochester, NY (early-2000s?). Yes, people wanted to visit Toronto but Torontonians didn't want to visit Rochester. The service eventually went under for this reason. The only way I see a highspeed train that goes thru Toronto working is if it goes to Chicago.
And on to Detroit and Chicago from there
I can't help feeling that some of those vehicles make the Class 303 look really modern. They were introduced to the Glasgow suburban rail network in 1960 and retired in 2002.
Glasgow has an unfortunate history of keeping rolling stock well beyond its expiry. The original Victorian subway cars were kept running until the 70s, and their replacements were kept in service for over 40 years.
Toronto's bus line makes the transit there not even that bad.
One of the big positives towards Boston's regional rail that comes with it's extensiveness is that almost every place of significant residence in a 50mi radius of the city isn't more than 5 miles from a rail station. It's a large part of the reason we don't have many commuter coach buses like most other cities. The only ones remaining are private companies that serve New Hampshire and the South Coast since they don't have direct rail, but even then the South Coast bus (Dattco to Fall River/New Bedford) is being eliminated since it's getting rail.
This is exactly true. The T is a surprisingly comprehensive system and I dont think it gets enough credit for that
Concord Coach isn't private. It's State of NH operated. It's their get out of jail free card every time MBTA expansion is brought up.
We Ontarians/Torontonians often criticize our provincial government (personified by our Premier, brother of our notorious former mayor) but I give Ford credit for recognizing the critical importance of a public transit infrastructure to serve the growing and sprawling GTA. His vastly increased spending on GO Transit and in support of the municipal transit operators and Metrolinx acknowledges this part of the province should not be designed around the automobile as most all of North America has since the end of WW2. Cudos were deserved…along with his distancing from the federal party!
Agree. Ford may be a conservative but he’s pragmatic and understands that a lot of his voter base is in the suburbs that rely heavily on Metrolinx and GO transit.
The Conservatives are pro transit now. I guess they finally did the math. Lol
I'll give him credit for that. Even during covid, metrolinx continued to add new services, like all-day service to Hamilton.
I live in Boston, I would say the main problem is the frequency problems, and the time between trains can be 1hr plus. I would say that the green line is the best part of the mbta. It’s infuriating that the crrc trains are still barely in service on the red line!!!
Honestly, despite the old cars, the Ashmont-Mattapan High Speed Line is pretty decent…
I am personally not the biggest fan of radial subways. When something goes down on a segment of one, buses or other desperately inadequate surface routes have to bridge the gap, and it is pure despair. Having routes planned more as network, would allow users to use other parts of the network to bridge gaps rather than depending on #@#%@! slow and low capacity AND frequency buses.
"Planned". In Boston at least that's the issue. Our system was never planned, it was built out bit by bit over time by private companies, often as a "trunk" for a much larger streetcar networks that went out of business when the fed built the heavily subsidized highways. The MBTA formed to take over the maintenance and operation of these trunk services but has mostly not even done that.
This is way different from most cities where transit has been built out according to a "master plan" by an agency that is staffed and funded with the purpose of building and operating quality transit (rather than maintaining a legacy service that most of the board members do not use and do not care about as is the case with the MBTA).
@@aminsennour5571 Sadly, radial is how things get "planned" these days it seems (at least in North America). On the other hand, the London underground was also grown bit by bit but ended up with a network. I think NYC also ended up (correct me if I'm wrong, I am really not familiar with NYC).
Boston has better downtown routes, Toronto has better coverage in the suburbs.
really despite almost every major street in Toronto having either a streetcar or subway?
I haven’t watched any of the video yet, but this shouldn’t even really be a contest
Reece is here to spill the T on Boston, get it??
Please do a Seattle Video for future development.
I've lived in both cities. Yes Green Line is valuable, but that's the only streetcar line, period. Everywhere else is buses, and MBTA buses are horribly infrequent. Yes TTC streetcars are slow, and they stop twice at intersections. But they come more frequently. Has more lines. I'd rather stand in a car for 30min than standing on the curb for 15min, especially when it's cold outside.
Battle of mid 💀
I'd say that Boston should accelerate the process of electric rolling stock acquisition for the T.f. Green line. European style EMUS just like BLS' double decker Flirts (RABe 525), but with 6 cars and maybe a top speed of 125 Mph would be something transformative, and much faster than their presently diesel powered trains, not only in terms of acceleration and braking, but also on top operational speed (limited to 80 Mph). With some schedule juggling, maybe a high frequency operation (15 minute and 30 minute off peak) could be the pattern.
As for Toronto, great job from Metrolinkx, but on the Lakeshore West, at least, besides electrification, I eould consider a capacity upgrade between Durham Jct and Union Station, and also the possibility of having EMUs operating at 160 Kn/h. I do not know if that's planned, but the Lakeshore should be again considered for a thtu centre operation, running Oshawa to Hamilton ditect, RER style. Just one final extra: the quad track upgrade Durham Jct - Union would also include VIA services, because HFR doesn't makes much sense to me.
A final tought; TTC tram operation, they just need to do much better, otherwise what's happening with trams thru the city just negates the advantages of Transit. This means adding signal priority and a continuous work to garantee a segregated path. With that in place, even running at typical 40 to 50 Km/h tram speed , would make the system fast and attractive
I live in a somerville and take the new green line extension everyday to work and before that took the red line. They have done an ok job at moderation but everything still feels old. The frequency's are not up to par with top citys. This is only exasperated by crazy bad traffic problems. we are lucky to be an education hub because this city would go bankrupt without students from affluent families.
No mention of Boston's ferries?
I’m going to do another ferry video soon which should explain why I left them out
@@RMTransit Super excited! Make sure to include the seaport ferry service (it's private, not part of the MBTA) but really well ridden! I've got a ton of footage of and from the seaport ferries if you want (I ride it every day).
love you but i dont understand how the silverline can be described as good
Great video! Boston really needs to connect North and South station though. The fact that they aren't directly connected blows my mind.
It depends - there's a proposal from the 1970s that considered just expanding the subway far beyond the initial confines, which was probably one of the first times electrification along the style of the Blue Line would have been the norm. Orange Line from Reading to Mansfield/Sharon/Attleboro (the maps in it don't give any clear idea where, but since Sharon was the furthest south of the MBTA's service area at the time), the Blue Line to Newburyport, the Green Line from Lowell south, and a few other things there. That could serve as some inspiration for the Commuter Rail should it happen - you don't need to concentrate on just one connection between North and South Stations, but a network of NSRLs instead. So, for example, a Back Bay-North Station link for the Providence/Stoughton Line that could potentially also serve the Lowell and Haverhill/Reading Lines (also helpful for Amtrak's plan to expand service to northern New England and just in case the T has ideas to dangle carrots in front of New Hampshire to get it to reconsider not giving a green light to a Commuter Rail expansion), but also, say, a Back Bay-Chelsea link piggybacking on the Blue Line up to Logan Airport to link up the Framingham/Worcester and Newburyport/Rockport Lines. Nor should it be limited to just those potential links, but build in flexibility in case there's problems with one link. Not every connection has to be between North and South Stations.
Toronto hands down because it isn’t falling apart a la Boston.
Im sure Toronto is better but the crime on the TTC is probably way worse its not safe
How about a transit battle for all Canadian cities? What are the top transit cities in every province?
ooh that would be fun
I feel like that would be kinda pointless though as each province would just be the provinces biggest city. The only provinces with some competition might be Alberta, sask and nb
@@SaumonMirshahiSaskatchewan against NB yeah, probably with Express and BRT buses for the Two cities but with Alberta hell no. Edmonton and Calgary wipe and they have their own rivalry, and cities with bus system is the same or worse
@@TheRandCrews I’m talking about cities within the same province. So Calgary vs Edmonton, Saskatoon vs Regina. Only a few provinces have 2 or more cities with similar population. Ontario, Toronto is number 1 not even close, bc Vancouver, qc Montreal, ns Halifax.
I think u should make another video for this series ( like some good transit network one: paris vs berlin, tokyo vs seoul, ... )
I’d say Toronto has better transit
Boston has better sports teams.
@@maxpowr90and here we go…
@@maxpowr90 . . . But it doesn't do a good job of handling the crowds going to and from those games.
It’s not even close
@JonahDoesTransit TTC is really a mess for a while now. Been taking GO train to reach work instead. Because there's always some or the other issue going on with TTC and it's always delayed regardless of the time of the day, especially Line 1
These kind of videos make me think how blessed we are with level boarding in the UK. All buses and trams are and every time they introduce a new heavy rail train fleet in an area they modernise the platform heights on the lines that fleet will operate to make them level boarding.
Totally. Level boarding should be a non-negotiable in this day and age.
@@jdillon8360 The northeast is mostly level boarding
@@lalakerspro that's good. But it should be nationwide. Even in little old Australia we have level boarding at basically all our train stations.
I think that's a bit optimistic, even Lizzy isn't level!
@@RMTransit All the new stations are level boarding and including the existing all 41 stations are wheelchair accessible. Before Elizabeth line though 7 of the existing stations didn't have platform lifts.
Glasgow and philladelpha is anther good vs
As someone thinking of moving from Toronto to Boston, thanks for making this video 😅
Cost of living is Boston’s main advantage over Toronto, not much else imo (cost of living is a big deal though ofc).
@@SaumonMirshahi I think salaries are the biggest advantage Boston has on Toronto. I’d be nearly doubling my current salary in Boston when you take base salary, income taxes and currency exchange into account. Both cities are very expensive to live in tho lol you can’t run away from that 😂
@@Entername-md1ev true ig overall wealth is worse in Toronto, and Canada as a whole. Truly is a shame, Toronto’s great but so damn expensive
10:13 Boston isn't even trying to electrify parts that already run under wires. They're trying to use BEMUs on the 9 mile Fairmount line (only under wires at south station) to provide 20 minute peak headways. The Providence line for some reason has not been seriously talked about for electrification by the mbta
20 minute peak is . . . No great
@@RMTransitconsidering that in the 80s they just straight up bypassed the neighborhood 20 minutes is heaven.
It’s a pilot program so I believe they’re going to expand them to the rest of the system after they work out the kinks. I believe their long term plan is to electrify the parts of the network where it is easiest and run battery in sections where catenaries would cause expensive engineering challenges. I think it’s a great way for a cash strapped agency to meet their goals without shooting themselves in the foot by going full battery electric or getting electrification projects stuck in political limbo due to cost. Also BEMUs would allow them to run a unified fleet like GO instead of splitting between EMU and Battery or diesel in non electrified section.
The Providence/Stoughton Line is complicated. Amtrak refuses to let other transit systems use their overhead wires unless they pay through the nose for compatible equipment (hence SEPTA and MARC). Amtrak also owns the track in Rhode Island, so Rhode Island has to pay Amtrak to let commuter rail service happen at all while also - through the Pilgrim Partnership conceived in the 1980s - paying the MBTA to allow some of its trains to operate service that far south. (No coincidence why Zones 8-10 - which cover Rhode Island from Pawtucket/Central Falls to Wickford Junction, all technically Amtrak stations with no Amtrak service minus Providence - are among the most expensive in the system.) Then there's issues between Amtrak and the MBTA dating back from when Amtrak once operated the system (taking over from Conrail) back in the 1980s and 1990s; they've since improved, but not to the level it was before the contract. So it's a bureaucratic mess (on top of the federal government watching infrastructure projects in Rhode Island involving federal money like a hawk due to our own egregious corruption issues). One day, though - there is talk of the MBTA leasing Amtrak locos for a pilot project for exactly that on the Providence/Stoughton Line, but we'll see (and if Rhode Island pays in part for the equipment - of which I'm not holding my breath).
@@danielblanchette2926 did not know a lot of this, thanks for the context!
One difference between Toronto and Boston is that Toronto is growing more quickly (0.93%/year vs 0.4%/year.) I would expect that this would allow Toronto to modernize and expand its transit network more easily.
For another NA transit battle, how about San Diego vs. the Twin Cities (MSP)? Both have comparable urban area populations and from 2015-2019 had very similar per-capita transit ridership.
You'll laugh, but Toronto-Los Angeles would've been a fairer and more telling comparison.
I find it funny that you consider Boston Transit to have superior wayfinding. While I haven't experienced it myself, I have been subjected to Boston Logan airport, which has indisputably the worst wayfinding I've ever encountered. They obviously put all the effort outside the airport.
I really liked the network in Boston, but it's big flaws are the upkeep of the systems and the lack of frequencies. When we visited the metro was closed for repairs, so we tried to take the commuter rail and were appalled at the lack of cleanliness, general lack of maintenance and manual operation of only a couple doors to get on. When we did finally take the metro and the green line LRT, again, we were confused why the service was 15 minute and why the trains and stations were in such disrepair.
Ultimately it comes down to lack of use. The entire MBTA has such low ridership they struggle to justify funding such a sprawling but underutilized system.
Love the video. The lack of electrification on the MBTA commuter rail is frustrating. Especially since the busiest line (Providence) has the overhead wires for it. Electrification would reduce travel time between the tie cities by 20 minutes each way.
Faster commuter rails and suburban bus routes could go a long way toward improving transit and getting people to the Boston area’a many high tech industrial parks without driving.
Even though I am a Bostonian, I agree that Toronto deserves to win here. They are just doing so much transit expansion on top of the already very expansive and frequent system.
That said, the MBTA right now needs to focus on bringing the current system back to a fast and reliable network before they can focus on large expansions.
Despite this need, I do have lots of hope that they can do this with new leadership and the noticeable progress they’ve already made. In just one year, Phil Eng and his team have lowered the speed restrictions from 26% of the trackage to only 7%, and two whole lines (including the entire 55 miles of track of the green line) are practically speed restriction free.
All in all, Toronto (even with its larger population) has a relatively more impressive transit network than Boston, but I can definitely see Boston catching up.
Toronto is just better because Toronto is just better designed
There’s no highways running into or between the city
Plus Toronto Public Transit is Very Efficient because it’s better than driving
If only Boston learned from the Canadians we would have better Transport than New York and Los Angeles
Gardiner Express goes right through dividing downtown and the Harbourfron literally parallel or on top of the train tracks
Yeah but that Highway doesn’t overlap with other streets or the cities infrastructure and thus it doesn’t ruin the city unlike American cities
[slamming buzzer so hard it breaks] TORONTO
now make singapore vs. hong kong
Boston has two rail-connected airports too! The commuter rail's Providence line goes out to TF Green in Rhode Island on weekdays.
Eh, I think the battle format should stay dead especially if you’re gonna mismatch cities like this. Blowouts ain’t fun, close games are.
It’s starting to head into late 2024 and Finch West and Eglington are STILL don’t have an opening date.
both are now training operators so are int he final stages before operations start
Video 6 of asking for a Cleveland video
As many complaints as I have about the green line in Boston, the pure extent of it and connectivity to the standard metrorail system can't be understated.
My main issue with Boston is that they aren't looking forward transit-wise. There are SO many quality of life issues that need to be addressed before Boston even considers serious progress in terms of extensions or laying new track.
I live a few minutes away from 9:10, it took 3 years just to build the overpass and to redo the grading and the road to pass underneath.
Sucks that the big dig cost was put on MBTA's shoulders.
As inflation and permanent post-pandemic patterns transform work pattern forever, I suspect the US has little reason to continue funding rail expansion.
You should do a comparison on Budapest Hungary vs Vienna Austria. I feel like they have a very similar system and would be nice to see a comparison.
Would you consider doing a calgary vs edmonton battle? I think it would be really cool since they're so similar
Have you lost weight?? You look awesome!
Reece's face lost its baby fat.
Arlington, TX transit explained episode when?
Ah yes,
Arlington, Texas: the true Sea of Asphalt
12th of Never. Although Reece still hasn’t posted a DART video yet.
Great video as always. I know you have to do other locations, but it's always nice when you compare a Canadian system to one in another country.
Even with the painful subway slow zones and pathetic streetcars Toronto still somehow takes the cake... The TTC regularly makes my blood boil, the fact that we are generally one of the top transit cities in north America pains me because it really does feel like the current TTC leadership is resting on its laurels and has lost all ambition to better itself (at least in the downtown), though I guess this shouldn't surprise me since Rick Leary is the reason Boston is in such a hole right now and he's done basically the same thing to Toronto. Can't wait to see what his successor can do for this city.
As a resident of the larger metropolitain area of Boston, I am so thankful for the commuter rail, but don't generally use the subway very often. Most of the places I travel to are in the north end, so I'll just bike or walk from north station. Even when I use other transport it's typically the ferry, to get to places I just can't walk or bike too. But I don't recall you discussing the ferry? I know it's not typical for most cities, but it's very Boston
The biggest improvment MBTA needs (after fixing its slow zones) is a better connecting line farther out. So that if live on the red, but work near the blue, and errands to run, or have family to visit near the green, you don't have to take 6 different trains.
The comparisons are okay, but one major thing largely missing is how reliable the service is, or is not, and the buses should have gotten their own comparison. While I haven't been to Toronto since the late 1980s, Boston's service frequency and reliability have been taking a plunge that started even well before the pandemic.
Edit: Also, the Toronto streetcar network has a major advantage that several options are available for diversions around a blockage. In the Boston system, the only diversions that are workable are from the outer part of the B (Boston College) branch of the Green Line down the non-revenue tracks on Chestnut Hill Avenue to the C branch or inner D branch(*) at Cleveland Circle/Reservoir.
(*)Doing this on a regular basis to provide a Boston College express service would actually be an easy service upgrade for the very crowded B branch, but it seems to have never been considered.
Short answer: toronto
Having lived in both, Toronto has much better transit overall. Especially the bus network. However Boston’s old streetcar neighborhoods are nicer. It’s also nice to have multiple lines criss crossing downtown.
another video on our beloved boston! really enjoyed this one :>