I grew up in the school of certainty. Certain perspectives and interpretations were taught as absolutes that couldn't be questioned. Part of my growth has been comong to know God as being so much bigger than the box I grew up in. I still believe in absolutes but I have the freedom to not know all of them and to change my understanding. Its freeing and gives me opportinity to rest in the grace of my Father. I dont believe His goal for me is to "get it right" but to seek relationship with Him.
@@carnduffagc5155 I hope all is well. One observation... Your "being sure of what we hope for" can be very different from somebody else's "sure of what we hope for". There are many Christians using the same words in very different ways, using the Bible in very different ways, seeing this book and how to approach it in very different ways, fleshing out what it looks like to follow Jesus in very different ways. Of course, most think their particular way of seeing all of this is the right way.
Just in this past week, I had an epiphany regarding my past spiritual experiences. I have believers ask me all the time, “well what about when … happened? How can you deny that?” As Aubrey mentions in this episode concerning the over intellectualizing of past spiritual experience’s fearing it will somehow undermine or discount their validity. This is what I’ve come to realize. My past spiritual experiences, feelings and all were real, they happened. The difference now, is in my interpretation of said experience. They are likely to change as my perception and knowledge continue to expand. ❤
Thank you for inviting us to listen to the conversation. I went through my own deconstruction and, thanks to people like Peter who think outside the dogmatic, traditional box we tend to put God in, I was able to come out the other side of my own dark night with faith that was less fragile, more compassionate, and that viewed my journey with God as a pursuit of the horizon instead of a certainty found. It's made my life and my faith immeasurably better, more of an adventure, and more sure all at the same time. Trust, not clarity or certainty. Amen.
WOW, what a soothing and comforting podcast for a person who is "curiouser and curiouser" as written in "Alice in Wonderland. I attended BYU after spending my childhood in San Diego and dealing with the 60s and while BYU is a fine university, I wasn't a perfect fit! I've had to make a "leap of faith" and move from the seeming certainty of Elder McConkie to a more "wait upon the Lord" attitude on many religious issues. I sincerely feel Pete Enns helped me feel better about my move to, waiting upon the Lord, on many of my personal religious experiences and questions. I feel as though my soul has been soothed by a healing balm!!! Warm appreciation and many thanks!! A believing Christian
I am so profoundly in awe of what’s going on here! From where I stand I’m seeing this understanding and thought springing up around the world and surprisingly from people who haven’t even met yet! People like Baxter Kruger, Paul Young and Dr Bruce Wauchope, who had their own journeys and discoveries before they ever learned of one another and now Pete!
Thank you Peter for your work and love and kindness. I read The Sin of Certainty years ago and it moved and helped me and has continued to do so. And thank you again Aubrey and Tim for continuing to bring on wonderful guests.
I love Pete’s recognition of the need for “reset” especially those of us who’s lived experience has destroys our ability to remain, proclaim or engage with honest integrity. ❤
Love this! This issue came up today in our testimony meeting. Baring one’s testimony with certainty (I know…”) vs a testimony based on uncertainty (I don’t know for certain.”) We have been indoctrinated to believe we must have certainty or there is something wrong with us.
Tim and Aubrey! I love your podcast and I really like this discussion. I once learned that sin is knowingly or willfully acting against the will of God. I like that definition of sin... probably because I think that constant boundaries create healthy environments for us and our children to thrive. It makes sense you know, to ensure domestic tranquility. Kind of like what is done in sports, if there were no boundaries and no penalties, the sport would only be enjoyed by narcissists (until they get hurt). I think that sports and the game of life would be very chaotic without God's words/laws. I think it's good to create healthy boundaries that create a healthy level of certainty. Like, "if you take my kids away without asking again, especially to a non-public place, I WILL call the police and report you for kidnapping." This is a healthy boundary I had to and keep trying to set in my life for the safety of my children. I mention this because Pete mentioned millstone around necks, and yeah... with those types of people... yeah, I like what Jesus says should be done to them, and I could be wrong, but a millstone around their neck and drop them in the ocean is a good solution. But I do like many of Pete's theological language like when he stated in this interview that “God is not captured by our theological language.” I like this because God's language, i.e. the 10 commandments in the bible are pretty plane and simple. God is never captured by our language and we are never captured by his language. Today people say faith / religion is so constricting, but when we keep God's commandments, we are only set free by God's language. When we keep God's 10 commandments we are set free by God's healthy boundaries.
This is very excellent and I appreciate my brother in the Lord for bringing so much clarity and also for confirming many things that I have also been learning in my deconstruction as well. I do have one caveat to add to this though. And, I would say that the New Testament writers and especially Jesus was not mistaken about the time that they were living in. The Holy Spirit would not have let them go down the wrong rabbit trail anyway. And if you look at Jesus’ sayings in the gospels as well as all the apostles warnings about the time that they were living in, it was obvious that they had excellent intuition about the time that they were living in. This is much like the intuition that we would have today about what era we are living in as well. They were led by the Holy Spirit. So, they were living in the last days and the second coming of Jesus Christ was indeed eminent. It is the end of the age that is being considered here and not the end of the world. I appreciate my brothers experience and knowledge in many things although I would encourage him to clean up his eschatology and let himself be led to the final conclusion that most people eventually get to. The last days that they were talking about was truly the last days of the age that they were living in. Jesus did come exactly when he said he would come. They were not mistaken in their intuition. They were not mistaken by their leading by the spirit of truth who was there to lead them into all truth, such as Jesus promised would happen. That’s the only thing that I would say to hopefully bring balance to all this.
something he said about sin and certainty reminded me of what Shams Tabriz said to Rumi : Why do you want to put the world right side up what if ( what you think is) the wrong side up is the right side. In a way he was saying to him to embrace the uncertainty and trust the divine to manifest himself. Maybe we can say not to allow the divine to manifest and heal us or the creator to touch his creation would be a kind of a sin.
I'm sorry certainty and knowing are not necessarily the same thing. Certainty narrows you up and causes the problem of never having to learn or grow. Knowing develops an inner peace and understanding about a belief, It is no longer just a belief as what comes from certainty, but is and creates a confidence in ones faith walk.
Perhaps one of his uh-oh moments was that there was also never a literal Gen 1:1. But if you go back to 1 second before the big bang and establish something occurred then and so on such that no matter how far back something occurred before it ... then it would have taken an eternity to get to where we are now in time. Which could not be. So there had to have occurred a Gen 1:1 beginning.
LDS say.. we have a prophet.. he will tell us all things, there will be nothing done by God outside of our prophet… Evangelicals say.. we have a Bible, God can do nothing outside of this Bible. He can do nothing new. Both are wrong. They can learn from one another..
Nearly all evangelicals, including people like Pete Enns who have come from evangelicalism, have a very narrow epistemology. Certainty based on sola scriptura is itself absurd because it makes each individual judge and jury on biblical content -- as interpreted by that individual. Instead, a faith based on the Holy Spirit may be certain without sin.
Help! How do I deal with my sin of certainty?. I was so certain that believing in life, death and resurrection of Jesus would transform my life but I am sooooo glad Peter enns is so certain of this sin of uncertainty. It has really freed me to have confidence, expectation, faith, hope, assurance, protection, conviction, and trust in myself, not God and what he has done. Silly me! Thank you for showing me that I can be my own god too!
Atheist here. You absolutely do see me as the "enemy", you promote as good and true literature that says the disgusting things about me in Psalm fourteen. That's the difference between us, I would never promote literature that said such disgusting things about you just because you don't share my disbelief in your god. You are of course free to choose to promote such bigotry and hatred towards me, just have the courage to own it.
I would not recommend for those struggling with their faith. This will not help but it will give a wandering line of 'what if' rambling that does not strengthen faith.
A Wild, that’s obviously true for you (since you feel/fear that way) and so I respect it as your comfortable path. But billions of people around the world are more curious by nature. We want to think and question (like Jewish scholars) and to use our critical thinking skills. We long for what is reasonable and true regardless of our comfort level. That’s how we grow towards our human potential.
@@Jack-eo5fn Its not because its a comfortable path. It is because I know certain fundamentals directly from the source and hopefully never have to ask those questions again. Many other things I am willing to research and discuss at length, but not the validity and vitality of my church.
I grew up in the school of certainty. Certain perspectives and interpretations were taught as absolutes that couldn't be questioned.
Part of my growth has been comong to know God as being so much bigger than the box I grew up in.
I still believe in absolutes but I have the freedom to not know all of them and to change my understanding. Its freeing and gives me opportinity to rest in the grace of my Father. I dont believe His goal for me is to "get it right" but to seek relationship with Him.
"Seeking to be certain is not an act of trust or faith." Wow - yes. Thank you Pete!
"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see." Hebrews 11:1
@@carnduffagc5155 I hope all is well. One observation... Your "being sure of what we hope for" can be very different from somebody else's "sure of what we hope for". There are many Christians using the same words in very different ways, using the Bible in very different ways, seeing this book and how to approach it in very different ways, fleshing out what it looks like to follow Jesus in very different ways. Of course, most think their particular way of seeing all of this is the right way.
"Seeking to be certain is not an act of trust or faith." Are you certain of that?
God is bigger than the prophet for LDS and the Bible for evangelicals. 😊😊😊
I don't think anyone would argue that 🤣😂
YES!!! YES YES YES
Just in this past week, I had an epiphany regarding my past spiritual experiences. I have believers ask me all the time, “well what about when … happened? How can you deny that?”
As Aubrey mentions in this episode concerning the over intellectualizing of past spiritual experience’s fearing it will somehow undermine or discount their validity.
This is what I’ve come to realize.
My past spiritual experiences, feelings and all were real, they happened.
The difference now, is in my interpretation of said experience. They are likely to change as my perception and knowledge continue to expand. ❤
Thank you for inviting us to listen to the conversation. I went through my own deconstruction and, thanks to people like Peter who think outside the dogmatic, traditional box we tend to put God in, I was able to come out the other side of my own dark night with faith that was less fragile, more compassionate, and that viewed my journey with God as a pursuit of the horizon instead of a certainty found. It's made my life and my faith immeasurably better, more of an adventure, and more sure all at the same time. Trust, not clarity or certainty. Amen.
I can relate to all you said. This has been my experience as well.
WOW, what a soothing and comforting podcast for a person who is "curiouser and curiouser" as written in "Alice in Wonderland. I attended BYU after spending my childhood in San Diego and dealing with the 60s and while BYU is a fine university, I wasn't a perfect fit!
I've had to make a "leap of faith" and move from the seeming certainty of Elder McConkie to a more "wait upon the Lord" attitude on many religious issues. I sincerely feel Pete Enns helped me feel better about my move to, waiting upon the Lord, on many of my personal religious experiences and questions.
I feel as though my soul has been soothed by a healing balm!!! Warm appreciation and many thanks!! A believing Christian
I am so profoundly in awe of what’s going on here! From where I stand I’m seeing this understanding and thought springing up around the world and surprisingly from people who haven’t even met yet!
People like Baxter Kruger, Paul Young and Dr Bruce Wauchope, who had their own journeys and discoveries before they ever learned of one another and now Pete!
Thank you Peter for your work and love and kindness. I read The Sin of Certainty years ago and it moved and helped me and has continued to do so. And thank you again Aubrey and Tim for continuing to bring on wonderful guests.
Love this so spot on ❤
I love Pete’s recognition of the need for “reset” especially those of us who’s lived experience has destroys our ability to remain, proclaim or engage with honest integrity. ❤
Great discussion. I agree a lot with Enns about faith.
I love the
I don’t know answer!
Love this! This issue came up today in our testimony meeting. Baring one’s testimony with certainty (I know…”) vs a testimony based on uncertainty (I don’t know for certain.”) We have been indoctrinated to believe we must have certainty or there is something wrong with us.
Very helpful!
Just ordered the book. Thanks for sharing the interview!
Tim and Aubrey! I love your podcast and I really like this discussion. I once learned that sin is knowingly or willfully acting against the will of God. I like that definition of sin... probably because I think that constant boundaries create healthy environments for us and our children to thrive. It makes sense you know, to ensure domestic tranquility. Kind of like what is done in sports, if there were no boundaries and no penalties, the sport would only be enjoyed by narcissists (until they get hurt). I think that sports and the game of life would be very chaotic without God's words/laws. I think it's good to create healthy boundaries that create a healthy level of certainty. Like, "if you take my kids away without asking again, especially to a non-public place, I WILL call the police and report you for kidnapping." This is a healthy boundary I had to and keep trying to set in my life for the safety of my children. I mention this because Pete mentioned millstone around necks, and yeah... with those types of people... yeah, I like what Jesus says should be done to them, and I could be wrong, but a millstone around their neck and drop them in the ocean is a good solution. But I do like many of Pete's theological language like when he stated in this interview that “God is not captured by our theological language.” I like this because God's language, i.e. the 10 commandments in the bible are pretty plane and simple. God is never captured by our language and we are never captured by his language. Today people say faith / religion is so constricting, but when we keep God's commandments, we are only set free by God's language. When we keep God's 10 commandments we are set free by God's healthy boundaries.
Great discussion, I’m reminded of the classic Christian Mysticism book “the Cloud of Unkowing”
Love Peter!! Now you just need Dan McClellan
Oh, that would be awesome to get Dan McClellan. I'm sure he would do it.
I might change the vocab. I have questions, a lot of them, but I don't have any doubts. The guy who spoke at BYU.
Lament Sundays! sometimes I think testimony meetings could fall in this category!
This is very excellent and I appreciate my brother in the Lord for bringing so much clarity and also for confirming many things that I have also been learning in my deconstruction as well. I do have one caveat to add to this though. And, I would say that the New Testament writers and especially Jesus was not mistaken about the time that they were living in. The Holy Spirit would not have let them go down the wrong rabbit trail anyway. And if you look at Jesus’ sayings in the gospels as well as all the apostles warnings about the time that they were living in, it was obvious that they had excellent intuition about the time that they were living in. This is much like the intuition that we would have today about what era we are living in as well. They were led by the Holy Spirit. So, they were living in the last days and the second coming of Jesus Christ was indeed eminent. It is the end of the age that is being considered here and not the end of the world. I appreciate my brothers experience and knowledge in many things although I would encourage him to clean up his eschatology and let himself be led to the final conclusion that most people eventually get to. The last days that they were talking about was truly the last days of the age that they were living in. Jesus did come exactly when he said he would come. They were not mistaken in their intuition. They were not mistaken by their leading by the spirit of truth who was there to lead them into all truth, such as Jesus promised would happen. That’s the only thing that I would say to hopefully bring balance to all this.
something he said about sin and certainty reminded me of what Shams Tabriz said to Rumi : Why do you want to put the world right side up what if ( what you think is) the wrong side up is the right side. In a way he was saying to him to embrace the uncertainty and trust the divine to manifest himself. Maybe we can say not to allow the divine to manifest and heal us or the creator to touch his creation would be a kind of a sin.
I'm sorry certainty and knowing are not necessarily the same thing. Certainty narrows you up and causes the problem of never having to learn or grow. Knowing develops an inner peace and understanding about a belief, It is no longer just a belief as what comes from certainty, but is and creates a confidence in ones faith walk.
Is Pete Enns certain that certainty is a sin?
Hilarious comment
@@jesusbliss I was kind of joking, but I do wonder if his thesis isn’t self-refuting.
Maybe he is absolutely sure there are no absolutes.
Perhaps one of his uh-oh moments was that there was also never a literal Gen 1:1. But if you go back to 1 second before the big bang and establish something occurred then and so on such that no matter how far back something occurred before it ... then it would have taken an eternity to get to where we are now in time. Which could not be. So there had to have occurred a Gen 1:1 beginning.
Is it also true that truth is relative?
NO, NO, NO, certainty and knowing are NOT the same thing.
LDS say.. we have a prophet.. he will tell us all things, there will be nothing done by God outside of our prophet…
Evangelicals say.. we have a Bible, God can do nothing outside of this Bible. He can do nothing new.
Both are wrong. They can learn from one another..
As I understand the original Greek meaning of the word sin it means” to miss the goal”
You aren’t losing God, you are losing the God of your mind
Nearly all evangelicals, including people like Pete Enns who have come from evangelicalism, have a very narrow epistemology. Certainty based on sola scriptura is itself absurd because it makes each individual judge and jury on biblical content -- as interpreted by that individual. Instead, a faith based on the Holy Spirit may be certain without sin.
It makes all religions a construct ( for order creation) over the actual faith.
Help! How do I deal with my sin of certainty?.
I was so certain that believing in life, death and resurrection of Jesus would transform my life but I am sooooo glad Peter enns is so certain of this sin of uncertainty. It has really freed me to have confidence, expectation, faith, hope, assurance, protection, conviction, and trust in myself, not God and what he has done. Silly me! Thank you for showing me that I can be my own god too!
Triggered much?
Just as Jesus said peace be with you.
Atheist here. You absolutely do see me as the "enemy", you promote as good and true literature that says the disgusting things about me in Psalm fourteen.
That's the difference between us, I would never promote literature that said such disgusting things about you just because you don't share my disbelief in your god.
You are of course free to choose to promote such bigotry and hatred towards me, just have the courage to own it.
I would not recommend for those struggling with their faith. This will not help but it will give a wandering line of 'what if' rambling that does not strengthen faith.
A Wild, that’s obviously true for you (since you feel/fear that way) and so I respect it as your comfortable path. But billions of people around the world are more curious by nature. We want to think and question (like Jewish scholars) and to use our critical thinking skills. We long for what is reasonable and true regardless of our comfort level. That’s how we grow towards our human potential.
@@Jack-eo5fn Its not because its a comfortable path. It is because I know certain fundamentals directly from the source and hopefully never have to ask those questions again. Many other things I am willing to research and discuss at length, but not the validity and vitality of my church.
In the beginning God created man in His own image, and man has been trying to repay the favor ever since.
----Voltaire said that. 🩵