Tonkin - The Attack that Made the US Join the Vietnam War
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 3 ธ.ค. 2021
- The US is supporting its ally, South Vietnam, but it is not an active belligerent in the Vietnam War. Destroyer USS Maddox conducts a patrol in the Gulf of Tonkin, and enters disputed waters near North Vietnam. Torpedo boats are deployed against her, and an engagement takes place which will bring the United States into years of hard fought conflict in Vietnam.
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A minority of people have commented before watching the whole video. There were two incidents involving USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin. This animation depicts the first incident on 2nd August 1964, which both sides agree happened as described. There was a second "incident" two days later on the 4th August which, as described towards the end of the video (6:20), didn't actually happen, and is argued to have been fabricated to push an agenda of escalation. A minority are confusing the two.
My comment was in regards to the second night. Your video is spot on for the first day according to my grandfather who was on USS TURNER JOY.
Thank you for pinning this fact to the top. I am so fed up with correcting this fact EVERY F%%&¤ TIME! yes! There Were 2, in words, TWO Incidents. The second wasn't fabricated, the destroyers were nervous and fired at Radar echos. Herrick himself cabled: "At 01:27 local time (13:27 Washington time), Herrick sent a cable in which he acknowledged that the second attack may not have happened and that there may actually have been no Vietnamese craft in the area: "Review of action makes many reported contacts and torpedoes fired appear doubtful. Freak weather effects on radar and overeager sonarmen may have accounted for many reports. No actual visual sightings by Maddox. Suggest complete evaluation before any further action taken."". Still, this "second incident" was used to get congress to pass the resolution.
@@qarmatianwarhorse6028 both happened. the first with enemies, the second without.
Fun fact: Initially US SIGINT was also confusing the two as a tape with intercepted North Vietnamese messages (reporting the damage to the torpedo boats) had been confused for coming from after the second incident (in reality it was from the first) leading US intelligence to initially believe the second incident was real as well.
Semper Fidelis 3/3/3 When ist Radio Battlion was formed and then became part the 31st MAU strictly for Vietnam They were class A Reconance team , Col.Palmer Brown was our CO. WE know What happened and Why, 🦅🌍⚓ Semper Fidelis ♦️ ♦️♦️‼️ Lost in Transmission , poor translations, miss communication , Bad equipment,
Fun fact: Rear Admiral George Stephen Morrison commanded U.S. naval forces during the Gulf of Tonkin incident. He was the father of Jim Morrison.
SO RETHINK ABOUT HIS BAND NOW
Morrison from The Doors?
Holy cow
That explains the last 50 years of world and Rock history!! Mind blown.
@@billace90 No, the other Jim Morrison
My Japanese grandma who survived B29 raids in Osaka and Kobe would say “it’s easy to start a war but so difficult to end it.”
Well if you’re the American government you can just leave and move onto the next war
All it took was a fat man and little boy
Especially when your hands are tied and your mouth is gagged. Civilians are always stuck between a rock and a hard case.
Thanks for the thought, very befitting when thinking of what this "incident" lead too as well, although the comparison would fall short on many specific aspects obviously. One should never be eager to pick up fights...
My grandfather who had a silver plate put in his head due to a Japanese bomb at Pearl Harbor would agree…..
Interesting topic, and helps clarify a confusing moment in history. Keep 'em coming! Always enjoy your content.
Thanks, will do!
@@TheOperationsRoom 🤔.... sorry. They scrubbed our convo on your pinned comment. Or it’s hidden from now. Still love your channel. Keep up the good work. 🇺🇸🇺🇸
As history repeats itself because man doesn't remember.... always an excuse to loose the dogs of war, sic the panic after 9/11 and 20 years of Afghanistan, the justification for the Gulf Wars, as we slip and slide into a confrontation with China.while Russia gets ready to gobble up Ukarine because some American's think that being caucasian trumps all.
The Interview "Fog of War" with Robert S. McNamara is a thing you might watch! Hear him say with his own words that there was nothing out there threatening USS Maddox.
@@abuseofmainstreammediacanh5713 Seen it. Several times. Very good film.
This is perfect because I have a history essay due in 2 days and the Gulf of Tonkin Incident is a key point in it.
Cheat
@@hankpikuni7024 how??
Spoiler alert it was made up to justify military intervention in Vietnam.
I believe the Gulf of Tonkin incident is overemphasized as a key starting point for the Vietnam War. When Kennedy was killed there were over 14,000 special operations “advisors” in the country- equivalent to a full strength division (and they had essentially shed their secondary role and were engaging as combat units alongside the ARVN).
Watch Ward Carrolls vid on this---you'll get and A
This actually clarifies a lot of things. Often this incident is depicted as "And then North Vietnamese torpedo boats came out of nowhere and attacked the Maddox who drove them off."
But this helps show the logic behind each party involved. The North Vietnamese were in a tense state because of recent raids AND seeing a US destroyer just within territorial waters could be seen as a prelude to invasion or a raid. So it makes sense that in a state of high tension they would send ships out to intercept and sink a possible hostile ship. The Madox meanwhile is not actually part of a larger invasion force at this time but also has no interest in, you know, being torpedoed.
But once the two ship groups engaged, the die was cast and the rest is history as they say
The USSR is no more...the most diabolical totalitarian dictatorship since the Roman Empire lies on the ash heap of history.
@@formernavyspook Let's not forget their replacement - Communist China, who arguably are just as bad if not worse than the USSR.
@@formernavyspook No, it now lies in Washington DC.
and USA got its ass kicked by a bunch of farmers....and 50 years later again in Afghanistan....hhahahahahahahahahaha
@@rahulbond3m political defeat isn't the same as military defeat you touchpot
As I understand it one of the triggers which caused the North Vietnamese to attack the Maddox was the fact that the CIA were sending agents into North Vietnam and they may have believed that the Maddox was involved in dropping these agents off.
Because of their lack of knowledge as to how the North worked all of the agents sent in by the CIA's were captured very quickly. The minute they stepped into even the smallest hamlet there was someone there asking who they were, were they were from and what they were doing there.
well as the story goes, the agents were using ballpoint pens at the time when everyone in Vietnam use fountain pens 🤣🤣🤣
@@VuLamDang
That's messed up. Lol
@@VuLamDang From what I know the CIA knew very little about North Vietnam so the agent had no preparation at all. It was hoped they could integrate themselves into the North without raising any suspicion but that never happened.
The Communist Party had people everywhere, even the smallest hamlet. So anyone who was not local would be stopped and interrogated. And having no preparation they could not answer any questions successfully. So they were arrested and sent off for further questioning and usually execution.
So when the North saw the Maddox and knew it was carrying out electronic intelligence gathering you can see why they thought they were involved in sending more spies to the North.
You have to wonder why the CIA persisted in sending agents into the North when they all disappeared like that.
@@bigblue6917 it's not like the vcp have people everywhere (they absolutely did), but the agents are also so stand out compare to the local population. Foreign people failed to understand that Vietnamese Hamlet are very tightly knitted community, every one from the outside would be immediately spotted and questioned. The same thing happened in the south led to the failure of the strategic hamlet
@@bigblue6917 The CIA persisted because it was following orders just like the army was during the war.
USS Liberty Incident would be an interesting video to see from you
Spooks aboard USS Liberty had detected atrocities being committed by Israeli forces in Gaza against civilians. A flash message to the Johnson White House was seen by an Israeli Mossad agent on the Johnson NSC, who immediately reported the info to Tel Aviv. The Israeli air force pilots dispatched were briefed on the location of the spook shack on USS Liberty and did a very effective job of killing the NAVSECGRU operators.
I would love that
Hot weather + Gunpowder = explosion = the end
@@kasrakhatirWrong!
Israel + weapons = murderous liars
I've been aboard the Turner Joy. She's berthed and under veteran care at Bremerton, Washington, just down the marina from the Naval Yard there.
She's a beautiful ship. You can FEEL the history coming off her when your aboard.
I was stationed onboard her, I got to feel the history all the time.
The USS Turner Joy mentioned in this video is now a museum in Bremerton, Washington state
Very well kept and interesting museum ship
Battle of Khe Sanh would be cool to see, but I know that was pure chaos and could be a lot of work.
There's a really good book about it called A Marine at Khe Sahn that follows a Marine that was part of a mortar squad through the entire siege.
A documentary series did it in the 90's. Battlefield: Vietnam. You can find it on TH-cam.
I'd be interested in seeing another video like this about an incident that also involved Turner Joy. Summer of '82 when four US warships - including Turner Joy and my boat, Benjamin Stoddert - were fired on by Vietnamese "fishing boats" with 50 cals. To this day, I only know part of what happened that night. I'd love to learn more.
Whoah that's neat, I found an article from 1982 that says the fishing boats lowered their Vietnamese flags upon being spotted? That is weird
A bit of backstory at least, Vietnam had invaded Cambodia in 1979 and occupied it until 1991. The Vietnamese were condemned for attacking Cambodia. The Vietnamese then fought costly border battles against US backed Thailand in the 80s. The Vietnamese even beat back a semi US ally, China in 1979. So understandably, the Vietnamese hated the US and would fire on US assets. In 1991, this all died down, and now, Vietnam has one the highest approval rating of Americans in the world. While I haven't done any research on the specific incident that you served in, it would be great if someone provides info about it. Also finally, thank you for your service.
@@neelmehta9069 the only part you saying the true is "havent done any research"
@@anvutrong6870 apparently not ALL Vietnam has a high approval rating of Americans, but we can draw this observation, Mr Ân: for someone who enters a conversation, solely to dispute the validity of a very well articulated comment, the forfeiture of your opportunity to provide elucidation, seems deplorably intentional.
@@anvutrong6870 How so? Only thing I was wrong about was that Vietnam occupied Cambodia until 1991, when infact, it was up until 1989. It was in 1991 where they normalized relations with the US and China.
The Sino-Vietnamese War happened in 1979, the Chinese didn't take Hanoi or Saigon.
The Vietnamese-Cambodian War stretched from 1979 to 1989, with rebellion, clashes, and the occupation of Cambodia, which rallied against International condemnation.
During 1979 and 1989, the Vietnamese fought against US backed Thailand in isolated but major clashes. The Vietnamese were once again backed up by the Warsaw Pact, with Thailand being backed up by the West and China. It's assumed Thailand suffered more casualties. Even worse was that refugee camps were destroyed from artillery across the border. Vietnam eventually withdrew from the border in 1989, and that was the end of that.
Now, China is attempting rapid expansion in the Pacific and South China sea, in which Vietnam is threatened by. The US and the West is backing Vietnam up against China's baseless claims of the South China Sea. Vietnamese hold one of the highest approval ratings of Americans in the world. The US sent boats to the Vietnamese Coast Guard and is attempting to befriend Vietnam to the fullest extent. However, Vietnam prefers not aligning with any power, a tradition they've always attempted to follow, and also in the case of not upsetting China too. Even further, Russia still exports the largest amount of weapons to Vietnam.
Despite all of this, Vietnam have a high approval of Americans.
So what did I get wrong here?
The photo at 0:41 shows the late Gen H. Norman Schwarzkopf when he was an adviser to the ARVN.
I would love a video about the battle of Ia Drang
I knew because no upload last Saturday that today I’d be given a masterpiece. Thank you guys.
Given this brief, hostile exchange was used as the premise for the U.S. to official enter Vietnam, this has to be the most succinct, impactful 7 minute video I've ever seen.
When you draw the roads on the maps do you use old maps or modern day ones to lay those out? Something I've always been curious about is how much we've developed the world's land in the last half century.
Oh yeah, same here. I think we have another 80 years to go before every country in the world reaches the level of infrastructure you'd see in say, western Europe. The good news is that people in Central Africa will have roads and irrigation, the bad news is that most of the worlds forests will be cleared make way for human habitation.
I'm also curious. Things have changed alot.
Definitely modern mapdata. We see the modern grade-sparated highway networks in this video, and in the earlier Carentan video you also see modern highway interchanges on the map.
Great freakin question!
Two nerds, sitting in a tree
I'm glad to hear
other critial thinkers
haven't gone RIP...
Splendid breakdown of the events, I was always told two vessels engaged Maddox and that one sank. Ya learn something new every day I suppose
One ship did attack, the other was a false alarm. Did not stop the govt from propagating the lie that there were 2 ships in order to gain support for war.
I've always read there were three torpedo boats and one was sunk.
I knew very little about this incident. Thanks Francis 👌🏽. Well put together video as always
You provide details other video's lack. I am grateful for your content. Thank you, and best wishes.
I was 17 when this happened and remember it well. Five years later I was in the 82nd Airborne.
I'm sorry our country's propaganda launched you into that kind of life
@@wakingupsad Don’t be. I’d go war again tomorrow.
@Paul Thomas You are welcome, Paul. I can’t say it was enjoyable but I felt it was necessary. No regrets.
@@wakingupsad It does not take propaganda for one to enter military service.
@@edmartin875 It's not a necessity, just the leading cause.
Thanks for this. The Gulf of Tonkin incident is huge in US history, but is rather confusing to follow on paper. This is a great summary of the pieces in play, and how and why they interacted.
I came to The Operations Room for videos of surgeries but I wasn't disappointed with what I found.
Great informative video as always.
It would be nice if a video is made about the USS Pueblo intelligence gathering ship, captured by the North Koreans off the coast of North Korea in 1968.
no it would not
or the american ship attacked by isreal!
You mean the USS Liberty, June 8, 1968
It would be a good video. I believe the USS Pueblo is still a museum in NK.
@@massivecumshot
It's like to do Great Evil on own Friend to pull him into fight against other Gangsters ( in reality some of them are but not all)
Now a video on the USS Liberty incident, that would be cool too
Superb attention to detail as per usual.
Well done. 👌👍
Many thanks!
Another amazing video and diagram, Ops Room!
Sometimes, just sometimes, the TH-cam algorithm actually does it‘s job and recommends great channels like this one.
Great video as always man, always happy to see more videos from your channel. Keep up the amazing work!!!
Thanks! Will do!
Fascinating content as always thanks for posting it
Excellent video ! A great way of capturing what happened with great commentary!
Thank you very much!
Love the topside graphics. Awesome channel.
The clearest explanation of the Tonkin incident, so far!
If I may, I've been interested in knowing more about the Malayan Emergency for some time. Would you be interested in doing a video on that at some point? I find myself impressed with the way you do these videos.
as usual super interesting and keep it going The Operations Room!
Great video, thank you for doing what you do!
Any chance of a D day version. I can only imagine the detail that would be required! Definitely something you could do mate. Big fan from Aus.
The Turner Joy is now a museum ship in Bremerton, Wa.
I had no idea a ship I've been on took part in the Gulf of Tonkin
Vietnam Veterans in my family appreciate the video! Thank you!
Another epic from the operations room, keep em' coming!
Thanks, will do!
Very interesting video. Great work, as usual.
Thanks again!
Rear Admiral George Morrison was in command of the naval forces in the gulf of tonkin at the time, father of the doors lead singer Jim Morrison
Awsome to have another installment!!!
Love the Operations Room, keep up the good work. Have you thought about covering some of WW1?
i came, i saw, i immediately clicked like,,, another fantastic production!
Loved the video @The Operations Room! Can't wait for the next video guys! The Maddox's Sister ship, USS Laffey (DD-724), is the only Allen M. Sumner-class Destroyer preserved and is berthed at Patriots Point, South Carolina, while the Turner Joy is Preserved at Bremerton, Wasington and her Sister ship Edson is at Bay City, Michigan. Their sister Barry (DD-993) was also a Museum Ship at the National Harbor until 2016 because the D.C. Government didn't want to fork out the extra 140 million dollars to build a Swing bridge near her. As of now, it's just Turner Joy and Edson "Fast Eddie" or "The Galloping Ghost of the Vietnamese Coast" as the Latter's crew called her for the Forrest Sherman-class Destroyers and Laffey for the Allen M. Sumner-class Destroyers that are Preserved.
Nice video, magnificient summary
Brilliant as always thank you
Love your stuff. Beautiful presentation as always!
The US was looking to get a reason to give the American people why they should agree to go to war. I knew some of those originally deployed troops known as "advisors". The whole situation was ridiculous and led to an American catastrophe.
tons of the troops were china troops
Was Vietnam really a catastrophe? The US held a position for the better part of ten years against a hostile enemy on a hostile continent far from its mainland. It faced numerically superior forces while inflicting a much higher number of casualties than it took. In fact, NV forces didn't succeed at all in ousting US forces from the region. It was waning public support at home that did that. So were it not for the chickenshit hippies in the states lead by a bunch of communist TV personalities like Walter Cronkite, the US could've persevered and defeated it's enemies. And that right there is the real catastrophe
@@2x2is22 It was really great when they bought my sisters fiancé home in a sealed box.
@@tomsreviews238 God bless his soul. Don't go calling the fight that claimed him a catastrophe. He died fighting abroad for the geopolitical interests of the United States and its allies. A cause that is always justified and worth fighting for.
The Vietnam War showed potential adversaries all over the world that the US is quite capable of ensuring the fight stays far from its shores. It showed allies in the region that its capable of coming to their aid. It tested and fielded entirely new, and now tried and true, military technologies and tactics. It was anything but a catastrophe.
@@2x2is22 "always justified". How so? Foreign policy is paid for by Federal Reserve inflation that robs citizen purchasing power to pay for military industrial complex. What "interests" do citizens have over in Vietnam? Not sure how you say "always justified" when clearly average citizens end up worse off via dead military relatives and loss of dollar value.
The easy company vid was epic! Keep working, we need you!💪
Thank you! Will do!
Discovered your channel today, I’m very proud of you 👍
Thx mom :))
@@TheSword2212 your welcome son 🍆🍆🍆🍆
Great content as usual! Always look forward to The Operations Rooms latest installment.
I got a suggestion for you for a future video. The Falklands conflict, sinking of the Belgrano and the various assaults by the Argentines on The Royal Navys task group. Plus the unsuccessful hunt for the ARA Veinticinco de Mayo. I loved your video about the Black Buck raids, it would be great to see your take on the Royal Navys involvement in the conflict. 👍
A multiparty series on the various major engagements in the Falklands would be a banger.
The argentinians exocet attacks are a must. Also it would be great to see some older battles as the charge on little round top or the royalist revolt supression by napoleon
Always wanted to know more about the Vietnam war! Thanks so much! Stellar content as always
Watch the documentary series by Ken Burns, it's really good. :)
Battlefield Vietnam series on YT is pretty good also
Great vlog! Thank you!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up
Really enjoying these videos, keep up the great work!
You have got to admire the bravery of any torpedo boat operator when rushing into attack under fire
Another wonderful late Saturday lunch with The OR! Great video :)
Hope you enjoyed it!
@@TheOperationsRoom I certainly did!
Please do more Vietnam and Korean War Videos. Great Job!
@the operation room i Love this channel. In general i love alota history channels but this is the first i found of its kind. Is there any other channels like this you can reccomend that show military battles overhead like this? I’ve searched but this is the only one ive come across
@The Operations Room
Check out “Historigraph”, “BazBattles”, “Kings and Generals”, “Historymarche”, and “SandRhoman History” they all present battles in overhead animation. Honorable mention to “Liveth For Evermore” who often has actual footage in his videos of modern SF actions.
0:42 That’s Norman Schrawzkopf advising and leading the way early on in the conflict.
Another very interesting and well done video
Your work is awesome
Do the the attack on USS Liberty by israel next
As someone from Europe we barely hear about the Vietnam war. I also barely knew anything about it's start, thanks for the great video as usual.
This wasn’t the start of the war
@@kickedinthecalfbyacow7549 I know, but it's one of the lead up to.
Love this channel so much. It clarifies alot of battles and conflicts that I've watched plenty of documentaries on but never go into a in depth play by play like this channel does. Keep it up...would love more on vietnam conflict.
Amazing work!!
Fascinating. I've heard of the incident, of course, but I've never known the details.
This video is factually incorrect. The entire incident was fiction created to give public support to the war.
Nope, that was a different incident involving Maddox in Tonkin. Both sides agree that this happened as described.
America went fishing, and caught a fish that fought harder than expected.
Awesome work as always!
Thanks again!
thank you for doing this.
Love your work, especially the WWII naval battles. Keep it up, friend!
didn't even know there was a second patrol, you learn something new everyday
Great video and very well animated
Nicely informative video.
USS Liberty incident next 👀
And thus many sons became very unfortunate.
Amazing work!
Great subject. I did not know the Maddox had been only 8 miles off the coast earlier.
Thank you. I have waited 57 years for this explanation... What uncovered lies lay next lol....
Jim Morrison’s from the doors dad was in charge of this
fascinating as always
The tangent to this----The 3rd fleet commander in charge of this group was Jim Morrison of the Doors father.
Only recently did I start to gain interest in South China Sea conflicts, more so on current and future. I'd love to see more in this theater!
Do you play war games? GMT Games Next War series is what got me interested.
What is meant by "disputed territorial waters"? Is the 12 mile range not an internationally accepted standard?
See, the US didn't think North Vietnam is a country. So they can do whatever they like
Amazing content 🎉
Hey that’s me!!! Thanks for putting me in the video.
So tactically, the Maddox was maybe a little early in firing on the NVN Torpedo boats based on ROE. Strategically, I don't trust LBJ as far as I can throw him, so I can totally believe that he wanted to push into further conflict with North Vietnam!!! Great video as always, mate. I look forward to other similar 'incidents" within the 20th century.
Well it was an era where many governmental officials went on an assassinating spree. Ain't no reason to think they even wanted to stay out of it. It's like thinking Mike Tyson gets in the ring, and is not there to fight but he already is covered in blood from all the fighters he beat, normal people he beat, and a tiger that he made his dog.
No, warning shots are standard procedure if you get too close to any navy vessel regardless of wartime conditions or not. They are among the final warning you get before those warning shots walk their way across your bow. You do not wait until fired upon when an enemy vessel is within the buffer zone. You start firing warning shots to communicate in a language that everyone understands, which basically translates to, "Fuck off or else." The rules of engagement were followed correctly.
You can try this with a US Coast Guard vessel and a fishing boat. You can, but you probably won't be back to tell us about it.
@@SpadesNeil "Do not fire unless fired upon!!"
The warning shots were not the issue I had with the USS Maddox.
@@wannabedal-adx458 no, you absolutely can’t afford to take a free hit if AShMs might be in play
@@SpadesNeil A warship entering the waters of an enemy country during a war seems a provocative act to me, but I'm no expert.
Between all the "Do USS Liberty next" and "See pinned comment", I was not disappointed by this video's comment section.
Great Video As Always
Thanks again!
Great as always
Thanks again!
It's funny how events like this between the US and Russians/Soviets have gone on and still go on without this level of escalation.
Agreed. Some would say that U.S. vs Soviet/Russian proxy or vice versa, such as Afghanistan in the 80s, is preferable to direct confrontation because, well, nukes. We're fortunate Truman and others were so reluctant to use them (even though many commanders asked to use them) considering that was the closest we got to direct confrontation since WW2 ended.
@@silverfortune5229 thank fuck for that
Once a single nuke being use in conventional warfare, everyone have their excuse to start using them
Well, we know more or less what a war with Russia would entail. There was an incident at Belgrade Airport (i think) where US officers refused orders to move against a Russian position because they thought, probably correctly, that it would lead to war.
Ah see with the Vietnamese the Americans thought they could start a war and easily win it. How wrong they were, took the deaths of 58000 Americans to prove themselves wrong. Instead the 2 superpowers used proxy wars to hurt each other, soviets and Chinese supported the Vietnamese and in turn America supported the Afghans but again didn't learn from history and lost another war
@@Truthbomb918 a winning strategy in modern geopolitics is tricking your opponent into starting a land war in Asia lol
Can you do the battle of La Drang?
Good animation to tell the story.
I was stationed with a SCPO on Guam that was onboard in the SIGINT van during this incident. He was a morse intercept operator.
Every time I watch one of these breakdowns of naval combat its so tense because a single shot can kill dozens of people.
So glad you mentioned DESOTO patrols, named after the USS DeHaven named after my ancestor Edwin DeHaven!
Good vid, thanks
Well done.