Consider this: *The Defining* It's the "defining that can create the misunderstanding", example: "belief in a lower Creator god", (can mean, a knowledge of a physical being that was involved in a scientific DNA manipulation that resulted in Modern Homosapiens, and this based on Ancient Knowledge/Sumerian Texts, and the label "god/little g" having a title relative to that like the British "lord", and not to be confused with the Creator, Source, *God* ... It is a matter of how the use of the title indicates "having a part in creating something", later an interpretation that was in line with Social Levels. (when we are absent or not as familiar with a previous foundation, the observation can appear most distorted to our understanding.) Gnostics had Ancient Knowledge and thus existed prior to Yeshua, and he made a major "add on value thru his gifts, studies, and accomplishments" (this included the Hermetic Principals aka Universal Laws, particularly the "Universal Law of Attraction")
@@ReligionForBreakfast It's tiny anyway - the whole episode will be 'gnostic' texts only preserved in polemical sources, including a 'cathar' text preserved in Durand of Huesca's c.1222 Liber Contra Manicheos - Many thanks as always for your work and inspiration, Andrew!
Why he used word "Pneuma? in english bible?" he can just use the word "Spirit"so international people can easily understand. he just used Pneuma to fit ideas of Valentinians.
There is one biblical story that intrigues me, and that is the story of Noah. I think this may be a timeless anecdote that we can apply to any 'knower' of today. It then takes on the form of a kind of collective unconscious prediction, as anyone who followed the trail of truth would ultimately find themselves in the same position as the biblical character, and likely HAS done through the ages..Giordano Bruno, for instance.. This would explain why the story retains an air of credibility. The events unfolding in the story WOULD mimic the real life situation in ANY age, given that the underlying nature of Humans remains roughly the same. Behaviour is predictable once it wears itself into a pattern, and that in itself is a perfect example of how nature works, at the fundamental level..
There's a sci-fi book calked Mysterium, by Robert Charles Wilson where a small Michigan town gets pulled into an alternate reality where Valentinus DID become Bishop of Rome and a gnostic form of Christianity became orthodox. One line resounded with me. The new world's religious investigators found the Christianity of the transported townsfolk almost Jewish in nature, due to their strict monotheism.
Went straight from here to listening to a reading of the entire Tripartite Tractate - about 2 hrs long. Despite it's ethereal subject matter and esoteric jargon, I think it's quite easy for a modern person to absorb, because it's written more like a logical thesis than a typical piece of scripture. It's so clearly written by a highly intelligent Hellenic person who has accepted the Jewish savior and aspects of Jewish mysticism and is trying to re-imagine them in a way that makes more sense to a Greek mind. Utterly fascinating.
Jewish savior? Who would that be? I didn't know the Jewish religion had a savior. They've had many as far as I can tell. The one they called Christ was Simon. Then bar korhba. Certainly not Jesus. Every savior they claimed was their savior they dismissed after their failure. Just as they claimed god had an earthly house, the temple. Until their temples continued to be destroyed. Then suddenly nope. They didn't need a temple and they gave it away. So you see my confusion by your statement
@@phillipstroll7385 you are correct Phil. The idea of mashiach (messiah ) is an ancient one in Judaism. Well, sort of. It developed over the years. The messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible). The Jewish idea of mashiach (messiah / ) is a great human leader like King David, not a savior. The literal translation of the Hebrew word mashiach (המשיח, messiah), is 'anointed', which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or something by putting holy oil upon it. & this comment was for Al Cheers!
Utterly Ridiculous, the Minds of Morons merely seemed to be reproduced Over n Over, no Intellectual being buys such, they merely make Us t Control the Simple one's and profit OFF THEIR WEAK minds. And still today Terrorism is a Good tool to USE and Profit of simple one's.
One of my youthful follies was looking into gnosticism, and somehow it managed to fly right over my head that gnosticism was a stream of Christianity, and that the "demiurge" theology is a cosmological attempt for Christians to reconcile God as he appears in the Old Testament, with the God that Jesus teaches. Somehow (I won't say how) I kept thinking of gnosticism as a kind of seperare philosophy, rather than as a branch of explicitly Christian thought. It makes so much more sense now. Thanks!
well it is not as if we proestants were taught that there was any other approach than our particular denominaton, that was not heresy, thus wrong. we had all tge answers and questions were not allowed.
that is the one core feature of these various so-called Gnostic Christians and the Marcionite Christians - they all had huge problems with the Jewish deity Yahweh of the Hebrew bible and found that figure irreconcilable with Yeshua. That is what is so facinsting about Christianity as it spread among Hellinistic Roman Empire - so many found the ancient Hebrew deity as a very off-putting, even repulsive figure (Marcion doesn't hold back at all in that regard)
@@TheGuiltsOfUsso the Council of Jerusalem was wrong? Jesus most beloved apostle, John, or renounced the idea of radical Torah observance as “judiazing” was wrong? Hmm… your Jesus doesn’t seem to know how to pick people very well if they got something so central so wrong so soon after His ascension.
@@Me-hf4iiYou ignore that there is a middle position between judaizers and marcionites/gnostics. That position is that the God of the OT is good and that He established a New Covenant in which the jewish-specific parts of the Halakhah are declared to be fulffilled by Christ and not necessary to follow anymore. This was the position at the Jerusalem Council, they deemed the God of the OT to be good and yet didn't believe the Halakhah was still binding
The bride groom and bridal chamber play a large role in Eastern Orthodox theology, specifically surrounding the crucifixion and the church’s role as the bride of Christ.
@@DISTurbedwaffle918 Yeah, I was about to say. That metaphorical relationship was used a lot by the priest of my Roman Catholic church growing up. But in my diocese, they rotate priests throughout the country every few years. And ideologies change between priests so perhaps it's not as widespread an analogy as I had thought.
The bride groom and bridal chamber imagery is part of all Christianity - orthodox, East, west, Protestant - all of it… doesn’t mean the rest of the theology is in accord with what Jesus actually taught. Eastern and Western Catholic Churches are too devoted to a woman called Mary for my taste. Too fleshly of an interpretation of the Miracle of Christ’s incarnation - and it’s very much like she has been deified in these churches. Yes He really came in the flesh - but he could have chosen a prostitute just as easily as a virgin. He chose the virgin to highlight the Miracle (a pregnant prostitute isn’t something all that odd - but a pregnant virgin shows people something very peculiar has happened) - and if Mary of Nazareth had said no, he would have found another woman who would have said yes.
I just found your channel and your introduction alone had me sold. The clarity, care and respect with which you present the historical context, prejudices and misconceptions are extraordinary. And the quality of the presentation holds up until the end. Now I have backlog of videos to watch. I promise to not pay much attention to the production quality of your early videos 😜
Being in these early groups must have been fascinating. Not only do you have people raised Jewish you have people coming from a Greek and Roman background.
And also, simply being in a world of which nobody knew it's limits, it's physical rules, the reason for many natural phenomenons to exist. You're in a group of people from all places trying to figure out the spiritual nature of existence.
I recently read a translation of the Gospel of Truth and had immense difficulty understanding what the authors meant by "spirit" and "soul". This presentation helped a lot.
@@ANDROLOMA Yes, it survives as a Coptic text from the Nag Hammadi trove now stored in Cairo's Coptic Museum. Edit: there are other sources - the translation I read claimed this is the most complete version.
i extracted the 3-tier scheme of Body/ Soul/ Spirit from Pagels' first two books (Johannine, Pauline writings). Soul = exoteric freewillist moral-agency thinking; Spirit = esoteric no-free-will thinking (non-branching block universe altered state experience)
I just did a paper for one of my religion classes on Gnostic literature with Valentinian cosmology at the center. It was really fun, excited for this video.
@@joannebrown6540The earliest christian writtings suggest otherwise. I would trust the earliest christians, who wrote the OT, over the late second century christians who wrote the gnostic gospels and books
I am overwhelmingly thankful to see Dr. Ismo Dunderberg and his research mentioned. He has provided exceptional insight into the Valentinians, and his book "Beyond Gnosticism" is a must read for anyone looking for in-depth information into the School of Valentinus.
@@dustindavis55 I agree that his books are expensive, but I "Beyond Gnosticism" is worth the $60. I don't know of a way to get the books for a lower price, I wish I did though.
@@brandonfrench9379 There are subreddits where one can obtain knowledge of dark arts in order to procure precious and expensive artefacts such as this book. That's all I shall say.
i looked up the book Beyond Gnosticism and I was surprised that Amazon says i have it 🤷♂️🤯 and i bought it used in 2013, shipped 2014, paid $15. i hope i found it enlightening 😞 i assume i have read Michael Wms Against 'Gnosticism'; found a pdf of his previous 1977 dissertation revision The Immovable Raec the other day on the theme of Stability ($160)
As always, an interesting analysis of this religous system. Real history, people and their beliefs are always far more interesting and diverse than we tend to believe because of our prism of experience and beliefs.
It’s interesting and diverse always, it’s not our faith that obstructs that but often time the privilege many have that they do not feel the need to listen or acknowledge others
The three pure forms of the universe is the most helpful part of this presentation, especially tying it to the letters attributed to Paul untranslated from the oldest Greek.
The Valentinians had a method they used to rescue humans from suffocating, spiritual darkness and bring them into the light. They called it the Hylic Maneuver.
Yeah but for it to work you have to make sure the banking cartel doesn’t shut your life in America down first cause they are so great and kind and care all about our sons
My hylic self was *riveted* by the TriTrac and all these fascinating details about how very complex the roots of christian religion really is. I appreciate your clarity and erudition.
I love these deep dives. You keep the pace moving at exactly the speed I wish to imbibe it all. This is so helpful in understanding a variety of very disparate philosophies. Thank you.
Thankfully died out. They were often, as it says in the beginning of the video, polytheistic. Gnosticism is the oldest Christian heresy, even predating Christianity (hence its polytheism). It is of Greece, not of Jerusalem.
I love your videos on first century Christianity. Very different from what my culty Baptist bible college taught me lol This time in church history is wild.
This is one of the most cogent explanations of Valentinian cosmology/theology I've ever heard. Not an easy thing to tease out to make understandable to a modern audience! Kudos!
Such an amazing video. Something that fascinates me about history of religion is how it helps us understand the people who lived in the past, their beliefs, ideas and practices.
The Valentinians were also early sources that link the fourth Gospel to the disciple John as author. This testifies to the antiquity of the tradition, being shared by those of multiple schools of thought.
All one has to do is to read St. Iranaeus' Against Heresies to see that yes, Jesus had quite the impact and had many thinkers scrambling from left to right trying to make sense of what had transpired.
@@Ancipital_ Nay, one has to see the successes of the growth, spread and strengthening of Islam which is the fulfilment of any genuine prophecy, regardless from the Nicene to "Gnostic" sources of Christianity and any other religions Nicene Christianity, especially it's Western variants, is already a failure at even protecting it's authenticity, whether of being "genuine"/"orthodox", "universal"/"catholic", lutheran, nestorian, calvinist, evangelical and any other labels which deemed to be failures after centuries of corruptions
The idea of bride, bridegroom, bridal chamber, etc. is very familiar to those practicing meditation that conveys the esoteric meaning of the bride (soul), uniting to the Bridegroom (God, Ocean, etc.) for eternal salvation.
The "Angel of the Great/Mightly Council" title is very familiar to the Eastern Orthodox tradition. It is apparently how one of the bits of the famous "Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God..." passage in Isaiah is translated in Septuagint and, consequently, in the translations dependent on it (e.g. into Church Slavonic).
"How many people who could say 'you can measure a soul on a scale'?" There is at least 1 man I can think of. Duncan MacDougall and his 21 grams experiment.
Such a fantastic channel, never ceases to amaze me. One day you should do a video about the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom - I would be fascinated to hear you talk about it.
Thank you, Andrew! This is wonderful as always! And it comes during the beginning of Orthodox Holy Week, where we have the Bridegroom Matins services, which also use the bridal chamber imagery! I don't know if you planned that, but it works out very well!
Thanks, I'm definitely no scholar of christianity, and even less of early christian movements and philosophies, but you do help me make more sense of what little I know.
The tablet reads “Flavia Sophe, freedwoman of Aurelius Hermia, a woman of modesty and piety, lived 30 years, 7 months, and 20 days. Aurelius Hermia, her former master, and husband made this tomb for her and for himself and for their freedperson.” What you wrote was a quote from The Gospel of Phillip. 0:29
Thanks for adding some good detail and, more importantly, a useful context in which this particular node fits in the web of beliefs and practices in early Christianity
That was an immensely deep presentation. Thank you very much for all your research and work putting this video together. I love your perspective, so often forgotten, that “Gnostics” were Christians.
I went and re-watched your 2015 video on gnosticism and it was really interesting to see the consistency of your arguments and the evolution of your style. Out of curiosity, do you ever revisit your old videos, and how do you feel about them?
@@ReligionForBreakfast To be able to look back at your past and see its deficiencies is a sign that you're improving in your craft! It's been great to see the organic evolution of your presentation style. Art is full of malformed first attempts, but we aim to love them all anyway. 😊 But judging by your trajectory, I can see great things ahead!
@@ReligionForBreakfast Man, can you teach us where did these gnosticism cosmology come from? Was it based on Jewish or pagan ideas? Or both? And why ultimately the orthodox Christianity rejected those cosmology ideas?
So thankful for this video - it took me a few months of research (maybe a year, but I also read things not in this video too w that) to learn as much about Valentinian Christianity / “ Gnosticism “ as is in this 24 min video 😩😭 it’s such a niche topic
Hi. Gnostics is used by Ireneas in his Book against hérésies. Its title once was "Countering what is falsly called Knowlege (Gnostia)" quoting Paul in the Bible.
strange i just learned that the Didache exists yesterday- in addition to the rest of the "Apostolic Father" writings (Letters of Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc) Literally about to buy Holmes' compilation
Something to add, is that the belief in the demiurge and the aeons, gives rise to the innate divinity of man; that the soul is part of the highest aeon in which it seeks to return if enlightened enough. There's an Elegance in that which I think is a great lesson for humanity even today.
The Bride of Christ imagery is still used in Catholicism. I don't know if any other sect uses it, but when I was still a Catholic, I heard the Catholic church referred to as the "Bride of Christ" all the time. THAT trope is nothing new, either. Eros and Psyche, anyone? It's the most "Christian" of pre-Christian myths.
Oh, this is one of those 'life worth living for-surprises'. Just arrived home from work, tired and dirty and sat down in the sofa for a few deep breaths before hitting the shower. This will be awesome. For some reason I have carried this internal sense/feeling for years that Valentinus is one of the very few - up til now - that really knew what Christ taught and what the Saviour's life meant. Thank you. All the best for your future work. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪🕊🌿☀️
Thank you for this! When I was looking into this subject 20+ years ago there was really only Pagel’s Gnostic Gospels commonly available and just a smattering of work providing context to the Nag Hammadi codices.
Thanks for the informative video sir. It does makes me wonder how would the modern world be like if these “Gnostic” branches survived. The early church fathers wrote way too many polemics against their gnostic opponents but none of the works they antagonize survived which is kinda disappointing. I think even the church fathers Origen (homily on Luke), Epiphanius (Panarion), and Jerome (commentary on Matthew) wrote commentaries about the first chapter of Luke discussing about the “many who have taken account” pertaining to these heretical works of Basilides, Cerinthus, Merinthus, and other non canonical gospels.
Honestly people who have similar beliefs to the gnostics have continuously re-emerged so many times I'd argue it wouldn't be much different as it is now. I mean if the valentinians survived id imagine they'd be like the modern johannites or the ecclesia gnostica in France and the us, or the Cathars or the bogomils, or Carl Jung fans ig
@@funnyWOMAB7048 Gnosticism essentially strikes me as Christianity infused with liberal helpings of Platonic idealism. Platonic thought is foundational to Western philosophy, so I agree that Gnostic survival would have left the world looking much as we have it today, and explains why variations of Gnostic thought recur throughout Western history.
HI brother! Thanks for the video. One question- Will you make videos explaining Philosophies of Hinduism in future. There are many dharmic philosophies with many people explaining in different ways. Would love to listen your perspective on them.
Yes, I am currently in the early stages of producing an Intro to Hinduism series. Two episodes are already written. You can expect the series to launch in a few months.
I had the pleasure of attending an introduction to exegetics class taught by Dunderberg and his colleague Juha Pakkala, where Pakkala would teach the Old Testament and Dunderberg the New Testament. He's very inspiring as a lecturer.
Please make a video on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin the jesuit priest and paleontologist who tried to unite darwinian evolutionary theory with christian catholic cosmology creating a whole new thing: the omega point
@@ronaldm.7101 It might be similar to how Catholicism still uses this imagery too. The Church is often referred to as the bride of Christ, and so becoming baptized into the Church is supposed to place you in an intimate and binding relationship with God.
great content and delivery. I'm wondering if you use similar terms like "myths" when referring to modern or orthodox christianity and how you parse one individuals cosmic conclusions as non-myth compared to anothers.
A friend of mine is reading about these things because she believes in them and wants to learn and put them in practice. She really appreciates these videos.
Just tell her to choose her sources carefully. A lot of ancient Christian writings have been destroyed, altered, or slandered if they did not conform to the more popular Christian ideologies. A lot of info you might find about these groups doesn't accurately reflect the actual beliefs and practices if these early Christians.
I thought this video was about the imperial dynasty of the late Roman empire lol- Great video as always although I really get confused when Christology starts mentioning concepts such as Gods natures, essence and substance. Like the disputes of chalcedonian and miaphysitism.
'The Angel of Great Counsel' is a title given to Christ in the NT. The Valentinians were originally not distinct from primitive Christianity but rather an inner dimension of esoterism within the early Church with their secret sacramental initiations of Apolytrosis and the Bridal Chamber for the Pneumatic Christians as well as the Psychic Christians. The Valentinian categorization of Pneumatic, Psychic and Hylic types of human is similar to the Divyabhava, Virabhava and Pashubhava in Indian Tantrik traditions.
There is always something so tempting, so exotic, yet oddly familiar sounding about gnostic theologies. I don't believe any of it, but they are strangely convincing for ideas that just popped into the minds of baffled people.
Thanks for this video. I'm personally fascinated by early Christian "heresies" - particularly "gnostic" ones - but I've always wondered one thing. Did this cosmology come from somewhere? It seems awfully complex to have just been conjured from nothing by one or a few authors. I mean, it's not unheard of (see the cosmology of Scientology), but given how much of what you find in Old Testament cosmology you can see as related to other nearby faiths (in some cases preceding all the way back to PIE religion, with things like the construction of Yahweh as a storm god in conflict with Leviathan, in keeping with the Chaoskampf), is there some other "pagan" source from whence the Sethian and Valentenian cosmologies developed? I think I understand some of the Neoplatonic influences, but I can't find any non-Christian belief systems featuring cosmologies similar to the sort of complex structure you see in something like Sethianism. Is there any literature that I could read that would shed some light on this particular aspect? I would love to see an actual video to help explain it in ley terms, but if that's not in the cards, are there any scholars who have written on this particular subject?
Gnostic cosmology is a combination of subverted abrahamic systems and greatly inspired by existing greek systems. Lot of platonic concepts. Things like the demiurge, concepts of archons, the pleroma, the Sophia, etc. are from greek beliefs prior to. Some concepts are in the new testament as well, but in terminology, and not in a literal sharing of the same concept. like the pleroma is used in the new testament but not in reference to a realm above the creator god.
If I'm not mistaken, the idea of "emnations of the divine" (but not the specifics here) begins with Plotinus' interpretation of Plato and continues through the later neoplatonists.
In part, it simply elaborates on the cosmic pattern found in orthodox Christianity: in orthodox Christianity, Satan is the ruler of this world but God comes in the person of Jesus Christ to reclaim what is His, and the dualistic Gnostic cosmologies simply elaborated on this. In part, it is a sort of Platonic syncretism. And in part, it is, in my opinion, based on legitimate confusion regarding what Paul meant in his epistles; a confusion that lasts even to this day, as you'll see with the disagreements between Protestantism and Catholicism/Orthodoxy on what Paul believed concerning the Law and the relationship between faith and works (although we see from the writings of Clement of Alexandria that the Gnostic vs. Orthodox dispute was rather about faith and knowledge). I mean, it's not hard to read Galatians and see how Paul could have easily been interpreted as having the same kind of cosmology as the Valentinians.
I know this is a weird idea but could you do a video on Demon Slayer? The characters in that show practice a form of Buddhism I had no idea existed. They often talk about heaven and hell, gods and Buddhas in plural. I don't know if it's the same type of religion you've mentioned in previous videos about Japan or a form of Buddhism unique to the time period the story is set in. Still, all your videos are great.
Another fascinating look at Early Christian belief! Each of your lectures, Andrew, is filled with investigative zeal and enrichment that stimulate our curiosity and reflection on what our beliefs are based on.
Do you think that Valentinus (or his teachers) would have had access to the yogic idea of the three gunas when formulating the concept behind three essences (hylic, psychic, pneumatic) ?
Ur explanations are so succinct. Can I suggest that you slow down all speech by 10% and increase your pause time by same after every period. Nmb but honestly think it’ll work ❤
I always marvel at how efficient the Orthodox Christians were at systematically wiping out all the diverse heterodox Christians of the Ante-Nicene period and their written sources.
I was just thinking something similar when Andrew at the end of the video talked about the general attitude of valentinians. Seems like they were too meek or not enough aggressive and competitive compared to other sects. Evolution and selection operate on culture in a similar way they operate on biology. The more aggressive (or resilient) organisms often cause the extinction of the weaker ones. “Cancel Culture” is not a modern invention. 😄
@@pansepot1490 Violence was not the characteristic of Orthodox Christians only, but of the whole period. In the period from the end of the Antonine dynasty to the beginning of the Carolingian Renaissance, Western Europe was engulfed in wars, famines, diseases and natural disasters. The victory of orthodoxy over heterodoxy has little to do with aggressiveness and competitiveness. Orthodoxy was (and apparently still is) strictly linked with hierarchical elitism and authoritarianism. These reactionary ideologies thrive is periods of distress and depression.
That was fascinating. Indeed up to now i had the impression that all gnostic sects somewhat were the same belief in a way like all evangelical sects can be derived from the same basic principles/doctrines... That it could be a way more diverse group than that has never before come up. We know much to little about these early "heretics" and how it all connects. Seems that the various side branches that grew out of the "unified church" would help us complete that knowledge and understand the things that happened in "mainstream" christianity a lot better.
@@tafazzi-on-discord No they were just as much morons as the rest and only had the misfortuner to LOSE the power struggle, and were getting called out as "heretics" by the vengeful winners. As in this whole story there simply is no "true faith", you cannot have the wrong one, therefore nobody is a "heretic" without quotation marks. Only unlucky lunatics and lucky lunatics.
@@pixelcount350 Lol not at all! True christians know that the Bride of Chrust is moved and animated by the Spirits, we would have never bulled the gnostics as heretics if they were Christ's true bretheren!
You say that the hylic, psychic, pneumatic categories of human are derived from Paul. Was Paul influenced by Plato's tripartite soul, or the three categories of human, i.e., gold, silver, bronze?
Bridal symbolism is all throughout the New Testament so I don’t know why you’d say that’s weird for present day Christians. Even Christians who don’t read the Bible (a lot if not most) love the bridegroom metaphor and you hear it mentioned at like every other wedding.
That Poem at the beginning was sooooo beautiful. One time I had a vision with my eyes open, it was the strongest vision I ever had. It was like I got transported to the throne of God but when it was my turn to stand before him the light was so strong and so bright and it was coupled with this indescribable sense of Majesty, reverence and the deepest fear Ive ever felt. So when I hear beautiful language to describe Gods light and I recognize the yearning to be close to the feet of the all attractive…. It just (sigh) I feel like someone else gets it.
Valentinius didn't almost become "a bishop", he almost became Bishop of Rome, ie, the Pope. I think that is important to note. Another note: not only did many Gnostics appreciate the writing of Paul, in fact Marion (a gnostic) was the first to collect the letters of Paul and give them a high degree of importance. Marcion brought these letter to Rome and published them. Quotations from Paul in the Orthodox church fathers show up rather late. He wasn't universally known, and his writings were not universally taken as scripture, for a long time. If modern Christians enjoy the Pauline epistles, they should thank the Gnostics for saving them.
Addressing the intro: Those heretical groups mentioned are absolutely not christian, though they may have called themselves so. At that time there was no distinction between "christian" and what would later come to be called catholic. Persistent followers of heresies were anathematized, and thus excommunicated, and thus put outside of the community by their own choices. Individuals dont get to decide they belong to a group, rather the group defines what individuals belong to it. To conclude, no, they were not christians and no, saying such is not a slander campaign on the part of the victors
It's just a game of definitions. If someone defines Christian as only this or these certain groups, that definition might not be universal. From a historical and scholarly point of view, these groups were Christian in that they followed and taught about a Christ figure.
@@yosh3058 that would be an anachronistic interpretation of this. At the time, the anti heretical figures were certainly not using christian to mean "taught about a christ figure", they definitely meant joined to christs singular church. Therefore, no these groups are not christian, unless we are using christian in the different more broad definition that didnt exist at the time. Under such a broad definition, islam is also a christian religion, but it has never been considered so, because it is considered a christian heresy, and thus separated from what it means to be in the group "christian"
Hasn't the church clarified that people who end up following schismatic heretic priests and leaders out of their inability to discern the truth, like most lay people born in orthodox or protestant community today, aren't in a state of sin? So some followers of Valentine were chistians since it doesn't appear like valentinians priests made the lay people attending their gatherings commit apostasy...
@@tafazzi-on-discord Its individuals who knowingly persist in heresy after a definitive teaching that separate themselves via their actions from the church, and bear larger culpability for the sin of heresy. An individual who intends to be part of the church and who holds incorrect understanding of their faith through innocent ignorance of the definitive teaching is still within the church it is true, hence the saints campaigning against heresies, in order to enlighten the ignorant and call the mistaken to truth. However this also means after this time those who knowingly hold these mistaken understandings that the church is trying to correct, while they may think of themselves as christian, they are certainly not, by virtue of their own choices
in regard to orthodox or protestant who do not know the full revealed truth, they are what we would now call christian, which has evolved to become the umbrella term for followers of christ. At that time christian and catholic meant the same thing. Speaking in terms of todays language, innocently ignorant orthodox or protestants are not culpable for the sins of schism or heresy, but they do not intend to be a part of the church that is christs one church so they are not catholic. but as followers of christ they are what we now use as the umbrella term christian
I think the concept of 'aeon' has its original root in Indian religious philosophy and commonly used in many varieties for an incredibe timespan. In Buddhist cosmology, a 'great aeon' or mahākappa means the length of time needed for the formation and destruction of a universe [or the collection of wheel-turning words (Cakkavala )] that generally consists of four phases of sub-aeons: the forming, the growing/sustaining, the contraction/declining, and voidness.
The usage of Buddhist eons as Kalpas to Mahakalpas are more used in empirical definition akin to how Aions and Seasons and Days being used by Greco-Roman Pantheons, although Buddhism conflations of Kalpas with anti-Vedic/contra devas/devis-supremacy with human agencies to be potentially above them (through becoming Buddhas) is the themes of Buddhism's concept of Samsara and Nirvana, this also expanded further in Mahayana and Vajrayana sects of Buddhism, just like how Essenes for Judaism and Valentinian school for Christians, heck even Mandaeism has said tendencies, although Mandaeans with each centuries going to becoming more eventually exclusivist despite the Baptism was originally open to everyone and anyone by John The Baptist (much like Buddhism original purposes to breakdown Vedic-centrism and Brahmanic castes in their Sramanic folds)
“It was not the mixture, O men, of blood and breath that made the beginning and substance of your souls, though your earthborn and mortal body is framed of those things. But your soul has come hither from another place.”
It is interesting to me the seemingly similar viewpoints of the Valentinians and Greeks in regards to the Father and Jesus, and that of Cronus and Zeus. Is there evidence that Valentinus may have been influenced by Greek philosophy in developing his theology? Or, perhaps Roman theology influencing Valentinus?
In reading Valintinian and Marcionic texts as well as some of the Sethian Gnostic gospels...it seems that these portions of the faith were introduced to the ministry and ressurection of Jesus, but without having any strong basis in Semetic Hebrew traditions or theology. Almost as if Jesus just happened to live in Judea and be surrounded by secular Jewish apostles, born of a young Jewish maid. The writers seem to be marrying The Christ to their own religions and post Plato cosmology and society. That the Jews were not the plan of the ultimate G-d but tricked children of the lesser material creator demigod, just as the pagan pantheon worshippers were tricked by tales of the Olympians or Ra's lesser court of nature gods. The Gospel of Judas and Gosoel of Mary Magdalena even show a writer's contempt for the Jews of the era Tricky stuff. One often assumes the Nicholas Trinitarians to be very eurpoean, but they do embrace judiasm with much more reverence and see Jesus as the final step of human enlightenment started by Moses and The Prophets.
@@STho205 There's no reason to do that, in the Old Testament Jews use "El" all the time. "El" is the general term for God, since it's also used to refer to Baal, it has the same function as the word "God" does in english. "God" is not the name if the Trinity, but the Trinity is God, and the true God, that doesn't mean that if i began speaking Hebrew I should censor "El" to "*l" or some other idiocy like that.
I found "Introduction to Gnosticism: Ancient Voices, Christian World" by Nicola Denzey Lewis a great guide on the sources on what we today call Gnosticism, including Flavia Sophe inscription - with explanations on how each text refers to others.
Get the exclusive NordVPN deal here: nordvpn.com/rfb. It’s risk free with Nord’s 30 day money-back guarantee!
Valentinanism is a Pauline sect.
HELLO DO YOU DO INTERVIEWS ? I AM A TRANSLATOR ... CAN SEND YOU SAMPLES OF MY TRANSLATION PROJECT.
Dezert
Could you delve into the Jacobites.?
I don’t think they always referring to Jesus when they describing the sons of god
Consider this:
*The Defining*
It's the "defining that can create the misunderstanding", example: "belief in a lower Creator god", (can mean, a knowledge of a physical being that was involved in a scientific DNA manipulation that resulted in Modern Homosapiens, and this based on Ancient Knowledge/Sumerian Texts, and the label "god/little g" having a title relative to that like the British "lord", and not to be confused with the Creator, Source, *God* ...
It is a matter of how the use of the title indicates "having a part in creating something", later an interpretation that was in line with Social Levels.
(when we are absent or not as familiar with a previous foundation, the observation can appear most distorted to our understanding.)
Gnostics had Ancient Knowledge and thus existed prior to Yeshua, and he made a major "add on value thru his gifts, studies, and accomplishments" (this included the Hermetic Principals aka Universal Laws, particularly the "Universal Law of Attraction")
Wonderful! Actually working on an episode on the Epistle to Flora and Summer Harvest for next week!
Awesome. I wasn't able to squeeze Summer Harvest into this video.
@@ReligionForBreakfast It's tiny anyway - the whole episode will be 'gnostic' texts only preserved in polemical sources, including a 'cathar' text preserved in Durand of Huesca's c.1222 Liber Contra Manicheos - Many thanks as always for your work and inspiration, Andrew!
That is beyond fat! 🥰
@@TheEsotericaChannel Best crossover ever, feels like the universe is collapsing every time I see two creators I watch interacting
I am SO THERE!!!! 😆👏🏽👏🏽👏🏽
I find Valentinians, Sethians, Hermeticists, and all so called Gnosticism to be utterly fascinating.
I just think they’re heretics.
@@DrownedinDesigner based and ireneus-pilled
@@DrownedinDesigner heresy can be fascinating
@@DrownedinDesigner they didn't set out to be heretics
@@DrownedinDesigner hindsight is 20/20
"Not making things out of thin pneuma."
I noticed the subtle joke. I laughed.
I was going to comment about this lol
And flawlessly delivered with a straight face!
Why he used word "Pneuma? in english bible?" he can just use the word "Spirit"so international people can easily understand. he just used Pneuma to fit ideas of Valentinians.
I’m so fascinated with Gnosticism please keep covering this stuff!
There is one biblical story that intrigues me, and that is the story of Noah. I think this may be a timeless anecdote that we can apply to any 'knower' of today. It then takes on the form of a kind of collective unconscious prediction, as anyone who followed the trail of truth would ultimately find themselves in the same position as the biblical character, and likely HAS done through the ages..Giordano Bruno, for instance..
This would explain why the story retains an air of credibility. The events unfolding in the story WOULD mimic the real life situation in ANY age, given that the underlying nature of Humans remains roughly the same. Behaviour is predictable once it wears itself into a pattern, and that in itself is a perfect example of how nature works, at the fundamental level..
I make vidéos about it. Like "Is the Protoecagelium by the gnostics."
In case you are interested, Gnosticism has now evolved into Anthroposophy, aka, contemporary Rosicrucian/Manichean gnosticism.
if you listen to podcasts try Talk Gnosis
There's a sci-fi book calked Mysterium, by Robert Charles Wilson where a small Michigan town gets pulled into an alternate reality where Valentinus DID become Bishop of Rome and a gnostic form of Christianity became orthodox.
One line resounded with me. The new world's religious investigators found the Christianity of the transported townsfolk almost Jewish in nature, due to their strict monotheism.
Sounds like a good book, thanks for that.
Went straight from here to listening to a reading of the entire Tripartite Tractate - about 2 hrs long. Despite it's ethereal subject matter and esoteric jargon, I think it's quite easy for a modern person to absorb, because it's written more like a logical thesis than a typical piece of scripture. It's so clearly written by a highly intelligent Hellenic person who has accepted the Jewish savior and aspects of Jewish mysticism and is trying to re-imagine them in a way that makes more sense to a Greek mind. Utterly fascinating.
Jewish savior? Who would that be? I didn't know the Jewish religion had a savior. They've had many as far as I can tell. The one they called Christ was Simon. Then bar korhba. Certainly not Jesus. Every savior they claimed was their savior they dismissed after their failure. Just as they claimed god had an earthly house, the temple. Until their temples continued to be destroyed. Then suddenly nope. They didn't need a temple and they gave it away. So you see my confusion by your statement
@@phillipstroll7385 you are correct Phil.
The idea of mashiach (messiah ) is an ancient one in Judaism. Well, sort of. It developed over the years. The messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).
The Jewish idea of mashiach (messiah / ) is a great human leader like King David, not a savior.
The literal translation of the Hebrew word mashiach (המשיח, messiah), is 'anointed', which refers to a ritual of consecrating someone or something by putting holy oil upon it.
& this comment was for Al
Cheers!
Yes, although the Valentinians were not totally right at least they were trying - goes for most of us
@@phillipstroll7385 Probably better to say "the Zoroastrian savior". Meaning, the idea of a savior.
Utterly Ridiculous, the Minds of Morons merely seemed to be reproduced Over n Over, no Intellectual being buys such, they merely make Us t Control the Simple one's and profit OFF THEIR WEAK minds.
And still today Terrorism is a Good tool to USE and Profit of simple one's.
One of my youthful follies was looking into gnosticism, and somehow it managed to fly right over my head that gnosticism was a stream of Christianity, and that the "demiurge" theology is a cosmological attempt for Christians to reconcile God as he appears in the Old Testament, with the God that Jesus teaches.
Somehow (I won't say how) I kept thinking of gnosticism as a kind of seperare philosophy, rather than as a branch of explicitly Christian thought. It makes so much more sense now. Thanks!
well it is not as if we proestants were taught that there was any other approach than our particular denominaton, that was not heresy, thus wrong. we had all tge answers and questions were not allowed.
They never understood rabbi Yeshua in the first place, radical Torah observance - not its abandonment for pagan ideas!
that is the one core feature of these various so-called Gnostic Christians and the Marcionite Christians - they all had huge problems with the Jewish deity Yahweh of the Hebrew bible and found that figure irreconcilable with Yeshua.
That is what is so facinsting about Christianity as it spread among Hellinistic Roman Empire - so many found the ancient Hebrew deity as a very off-putting, even repulsive figure (Marcion doesn't hold back at all in that regard)
@@TheGuiltsOfUsso the Council of Jerusalem was wrong? Jesus most beloved apostle, John, or renounced the idea of radical Torah observance as “judiazing” was wrong? Hmm… your Jesus doesn’t seem to know how to pick people very well if they got something so central so wrong so soon after His ascension.
@@Me-hf4iiYou ignore that there is a middle position between judaizers and marcionites/gnostics. That position is that the God of the OT is good and that He established a New Covenant in which the jewish-specific parts of the Halakhah are declared to be fulffilled by Christ and not necessary to follow anymore. This was the position at the Jerusalem Council, they deemed the God of the OT to be good and yet didn't believe the Halakhah was still binding
This channel gives me so many interesting topics to discuss with my dad. Thanks Andrew!
How nice to have these discussions together. I love it. ❤
The bride groom and bridal chamber play a large role in Eastern Orthodox theology, specifically surrounding the crucifixion and the church’s role as the bride of Christ.
These also are still maintained in Catholic theology, both Western and Eastern.
So enlightening
@@DISTurbedwaffle918 Yeah, I was about to say. That metaphorical relationship was used a lot by the priest of my Roman Catholic church growing up. But in my diocese, they rotate priests throughout the country every few years. And ideologies change between priests so perhaps it's not as widespread an analogy as I had thought.
@@BonJoviBeatlesLedZep
Some priests are bigger theologians than others. The one you have now probably just isn't as advanced in his knowledge.
The bride groom and bridal chamber imagery is part of all Christianity - orthodox, East, west, Protestant - all of it… doesn’t mean the rest of the theology is in accord with what Jesus actually taught.
Eastern and Western Catholic Churches are too devoted to a woman called Mary for my taste. Too fleshly of an interpretation of the Miracle of Christ’s incarnation - and it’s very much like she has been deified in these churches.
Yes He really came in the flesh - but he could have chosen a prostitute just as easily as a virgin. He chose the virgin to highlight the Miracle (a pregnant prostitute isn’t something all that odd - but a pregnant virgin shows people something very peculiar has happened) - and if Mary of Nazareth had said no, he would have found another woman who would have said yes.
I just found your channel and your introduction alone had me sold. The clarity, care and respect with which you present the historical context, prejudices and misconceptions are extraordinary. And the quality of the presentation holds up until the end.
Now I have backlog of videos to watch. I promise to not pay much attention to the production quality of your early videos 😜
Being in these early groups must have been fascinating. Not only do you have people raised Jewish you have people coming from a Greek and Roman background.
And also, simply being in a world of which nobody knew it's limits, it's physical rules, the reason for many natural phenomenons to exist. You're in a group of people from all places trying to figure out the spiritual nature of existence.
I recently read a translation of the Gospel of Truth and had immense difficulty understanding what the authors meant by "spirit" and "soul". This presentation helped a lot.
Was the Gospel of Truth among the trove at Nag Hammadi?
@@ANDROLOMA Yes, it survives as a Coptic text from the Nag Hammadi trove now stored in Cairo's Coptic Museum.
Edit: there are other sources - the translation I read claimed this is the most complete version.
@@PhDTony_original Today, I learned something new. Thank you, Tony.
i extracted the 3-tier scheme of Body/ Soul/ Spirit from Pagels' first two books (Johannine, Pauline writings).
Soul = exoteric freewillist moral-agency thinking;
Spirit = esoteric no-free-will thinking (non-branching block universe altered state experience)
I just did a paper for one of my religion classes on Gnostic literature with Valentinian cosmology at the center. It was really fun, excited for this video.
If this strand of Christianity (i.e. Gnostic Christianities) was the one that survived to this day, I definitely would have remained Christian
Valentinian theology heavily influences my own spiritual beliefs. I appreciate this video.
Especially regarding Yahweh, in my belief. He is not The Father of Yeshua.
@@joannebrown6540 yshu = 'May his name be obliterated'
@@joannebrown6540The earliest christian writtings suggest otherwise. I would trust the earliest christians, who wrote the OT, over the late second century christians who wrote the gnostic gospels and books
I am overwhelmingly thankful to see Dr. Ismo Dunderberg and his research mentioned. He has provided exceptional insight into the Valentinians, and his book "Beyond Gnosticism" is a must read for anyone looking for in-depth information into the School of Valentinus.
It’s too bad his books are so expensive. One as much as 270 dollars on Amazon. Where can one find more affordable copies?
@@dustindavis55 I agree that his books are expensive, but I "Beyond Gnosticism" is worth the $60. I don't know of a way to get the books for a lower price, I wish I did though.
@@dustindavis55 Libgen.
@@brandonfrench9379 There are subreddits where one can obtain knowledge of dark arts in order to procure precious and expensive artefacts such as this book. That's all I shall say.
i looked up the book Beyond Gnosticism and I was surprised that Amazon says i have it 🤷♂️🤯 and i bought it used in 2013, shipped 2014, paid $15. i hope i found it enlightening 😞
i assume i have read Michael Wms Against 'Gnosticism'; found a pdf of his previous 1977 dissertation revision The Immovable Raec the other day on the theme of Stability ($160)
As always, an interesting analysis of this religous system. Real history, people and their beliefs are always far more interesting and diverse than we tend to believe because of our prism of experience and beliefs.
It’s interesting and diverse always, it’s not our faith that obstructs that but often time the privilege many have that they do not feel the need to listen or acknowledge others
I've really struggled to wrap my head around Valentinianism for the longest time. This was helpful.
The three pure forms of the universe is the most helpful part of this presentation, especially tying it to the letters attributed to Paul untranslated from the oldest Greek.
The Valentinians had a method they used to rescue humans from suffocating, spiritual darkness and bring them into the light. They called it the Hylic Maneuver.
Heimlich?
LOL
Yeah but for it to work you have to make sure the banking cartel doesn’t shut your life in America down first cause they are so great and kind and care all about our sons
Hahaha. That was hilarious
@@user-ie2fl8lx7j
Such things dont exist, you're delusional
My hylic self was *riveted* by the TriTrac and all these fascinating details about how very complex the roots of christian religion really is. I appreciate your clarity and erudition.
I love these deep dives. You keep the pace moving at exactly the speed I wish to imbibe it all. This is so helpful in understanding a variety of very disparate philosophies. Thank you.
Wow. Extremely interesting, wish I knew so much more about the various "Gnostic" beliefs such a shame so much is lost to time or undiscovered.
and ignored as well misrepresented.
And intentionally suppressed
@@bobSeigar bingo.
Thankfully died out. They were often, as it says in the beginning of the video, polytheistic. Gnosticism is the oldest Christian heresy, even predating Christianity (hence its polytheism). It is of Greece, not of Jerusalem.
@@tehufn Christianity came out of Rome, not Jerusalem. Also, Gnostics are a much more diverse set of groups than you are attempting to paint them as.
I love your videos on first century Christianity. Very different from what my culty Baptist bible college taught me lol This time in church history is wild.
This is one of the most cogent explanations of Valentinian cosmology/theology I've ever heard. Not an easy thing to tease out to make understandable to a modern audience! Kudos!
Such an amazing video. Something that fascinates me about history of religion is how it helps us understand the people who lived in the past, their beliefs, ideas and practices.
The Valentinians were also early sources that link the fourth Gospel to the disciple John as author. This testifies to the antiquity of the tradition, being shared by those of multiple schools of thought.
All one has to do is to read St. Iranaeus' Against Heresies to see that yes, Jesus had quite the impact and had many thinkers scrambling from left to right trying to make sense of what had transpired.
@@Ancipital_ Nay, one has to see the successes of the growth, spread and strengthening of Islam which is the fulfilment of any genuine prophecy, regardless from the Nicene to "Gnostic" sources of Christianity and any other religions
Nicene Christianity, especially it's Western variants, is already a failure at even protecting it's authenticity, whether of being "genuine"/"orthodox", "universal"/"catholic", lutheran, nestorian, calvinist, evangelical and any other labels which deemed to be failures after centuries of corruptions
The fact that Valentinus almost became bishop of Rome is worth making the video about him/his belief system!
The idea of bride, bridegroom, bridal chamber, etc. is very familiar to those practicing meditation that conveys the esoteric meaning of the bride (soul), uniting to the Bridegroom (God, Ocean, etc.) for eternal salvation.
Rabbi Yeshua knew nothing of such pagan ideas
The "Angel of the Great/Mightly Council" title is very familiar to the Eastern Orthodox tradition. It is apparently how one of the bits of the famous "Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God..." passage in Isaiah is translated in Septuagint and, consequently, in the translations dependent on it (e.g. into Church Slavonic).
"Think like an ancient physicist!" Thanks, that's my new motto
"How many people who could say 'you can measure a soul on a scale'?"
There is at least 1 man I can think of. Duncan MacDougall and his 21 grams experiment.
I just started reading surviving Valentinian texts yesterday! What great timing
Such a fantastic channel, never ceases to amaze me. One day you should do a video about the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom - I would be fascinated to hear you talk about it.
I've been watching so much RFB I think I might be addicted xD
Please never stop making videos, this is the best channel out there!
Thank you, Andrew! This is wonderful as always! And it comes during the beginning of Orthodox Holy Week, where we have the Bridegroom Matins services, which also use the bridal chamber imagery! I don't know if you planned that, but it works out very well!
Thanks, I'm definitely no scholar of christianity, and even less of early christian movements and philosophies, but you do help me make more sense of what little I know.
The tablet reads “Flavia Sophe, freedwoman of Aurelius Hermia, a woman of modesty and piety, lived 30 years, 7 months, and 20 days. Aurelius Hermia, her former master, and husband made this tomb for her and for himself and for their freedperson.”
What you wrote was a quote from The Gospel of Phillip. 0:29
Thanks for adding some good detail and, more importantly, a useful context in which this particular node fits in the web of beliefs and practices in early Christianity
That was an immensely deep presentation. Thank you very much for all your research and work putting this video together. I love your perspective, so often forgotten, that “Gnostics” were Christians.
I went and re-watched your 2015 video on gnosticism and it was really interesting to see the consistency of your arguments and the evolution of your style. Out of curiosity, do you ever revisit your old videos, and how do you feel about them?
Some of them hold up. Generally I cringe at the production quality.
@@ReligionForBreakfast To be able to look back at your past and see its deficiencies is a sign that you're improving in your craft! It's been great to see the organic evolution of your presentation style.
Art is full of malformed first attempts, but we aim to love them all anyway. 😊 But judging by your trajectory, I can see great things ahead!
@@ReligionForBreakfast
Man, can you teach us where did these gnosticism cosmology come from? Was it based on Jewish or pagan ideas? Or both?
And why ultimately the orthodox Christianity rejected those cosmology ideas?
@@ReligionForBreakfast you can be funny too
I've already watched this episode twice - can't wait to share it with others!
So thankful for this video - it took me a few months of research (maybe a year, but I also read things not in this video too w that) to learn as much about Valentinian Christianity / “ Gnosticism “ as is in this 24 min video 😩😭 it’s such a niche topic
Hi.
Gnostics is used by Ireneas in his Book against hérésies. Its title once was "Countering what is falsly called Knowlege (Gnostia)" quoting Paul in the Bible.
Are you ever planning on making a video about the Didache? Also thanks for this video Valentinians are a group I've always found interesting.
Yeah I'd really like to. I've always been fascinated by the Didache, and it'd be a nice follow-up to the Shepherd of Hermas video.
@@ReligionForBreakfast thanks for making a video on the Shepard of Hermas. I had no idea it existed. I've learnt so much from your channel.
@@ReligionForBreakfast Please do! I have always wanted to know more about the Didache
strange i just learned that the Didache exists yesterday- in addition to the rest of the "Apostolic Father" writings (Letters of Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp, etc)
Literally about to buy Holmes' compilation
@@PaulClermont is there an amazon link to this
Naming my next dog or child Pseudo-Tertullian
Something to add, is that the belief in the demiurge and the aeons, gives rise to the innate divinity of man; that the soul is part of the highest aeon in which it seeks to return if enlightened enough. There's an Elegance in that which I think is a great lesson for humanity even today.
Fantastic job as always. Thank you for all your hard work!
Your summaries are always simple enough to stir the reader's interest.
Thanks.
Thank you so much i love your videos especially on Christian History, Gnosticism, and Apocryphal texts.
so glad to see you're back!
There's nothing wrong with calling them by their founder's name. It's a helpful label. Makes no difference if some ancient writer hated them or not.
“…the Valentinians were not making this stuff out of thin pneuma”
…well played!
Really really enjoyed this presentation! Extremely enlightening. I’m looking forward to going through the rest of your material. 🙂
Thank you for perpetuating a scholarly understanding of this elusive material.
The Bride of Christ imagery is still used in Catholicism. I don't know if any other sect uses it, but when I was still a Catholic, I heard the Catholic church referred to as the "Bride of Christ" all the time. THAT trope is nothing new, either. Eros and Psyche, anyone? It's the most "Christian" of pre-Christian myths.
The Bride of Christ is used in protestant as well as eastern orthodox churches. Do you know why? Because it comes directly from scripture.
Oh, this is one of those 'life worth living for-surprises'. Just arrived home from work, tired and dirty and sat down in the sofa for a few deep breaths before hitting the shower. This will be awesome. For some reason I have carried this internal sense/feeling for years that Valentinus is one of the very few - up til now - that really knew what Christ taught and what the Saviour's life meant.
Thank you. All the best for your future work. Greetings from Sweden 🇸🇪🕊🌿☀️
Love to see an episode on Ebionites and their modern spiritual descendants the Talmidi Jews
Thank you for this! When I was looking into this subject 20+ years ago there was really only Pagel’s Gnostic Gospels commonly available and just a smattering of work providing context to the Nag Hammadi codices.
The Valentinians weren't making this stuff up out of thin pneuma 😂😂😂
Show up for the religious studies scholarship. Stay for the gnostic-themed dad jokes.
@@ReligionForBreakfast You know you've peaked as a specific nerd culture when you have inside dad jokes.
The early Christians were in a culture that liked to speculate and define things, even when there was no evidence to their speculations.
Thanks for the informative video sir. It does makes me wonder how would the modern world be like if these “Gnostic” branches survived. The early church fathers wrote way too many polemics against their gnostic opponents but none of the works they antagonize survived which is kinda disappointing. I think even the church fathers Origen (homily on Luke), Epiphanius (Panarion), and Jerome (commentary on Matthew) wrote commentaries about the first chapter of Luke discussing about the “many who have taken account” pertaining to these heretical works of Basilides, Cerinthus, Merinthus, and other non canonical gospels.
Honestly people who have similar beliefs to the gnostics have continuously re-emerged so many times I'd argue it wouldn't be much different as it is now.
I mean if the valentinians survived id imagine they'd be like the modern johannites or the ecclesia gnostica in France and the us, or the Cathars or the bogomils, or Carl Jung fans ig
@@funnyWOMAB7048 Gnosticism essentially strikes me as Christianity infused with liberal helpings of Platonic idealism. Platonic thought is foundational to Western philosophy, so I agree that Gnostic survival would have left the world looking much as we have it today, and explains why variations of Gnostic thought recur throughout Western history.
This video is great!
I really thought I pneuma faith pretty well, but, this was very enlightening!
HI brother! Thanks for the video. One question- Will you make videos explaining Philosophies of Hinduism in future. There are many dharmic philosophies with many people explaining in different ways. Would love to listen your perspective on them.
Yes, I am currently in the early stages of producing an Intro to Hinduism series. Two episodes are already written. You can expect the series to launch in a few months.
@@ReligionForBreakfast Thanks buddy❤
I had the pleasure of attending an introduction to exegetics class taught by Dunderberg and his colleague Juha Pakkala, where Pakkala would teach the Old Testament and Dunderberg the New Testament. He's very inspiring as a lecturer.
I really enjoy your seeming non bias delivery of facts in a well rounded measure. Thank you, I wish I could support you but I am a pleab
Please make a video on Pierre Teilhard de Chardin the jesuit priest and paleontologist who tried to unite darwinian evolutionary theory with christian catholic cosmology creating a whole new thing: the omega point
yet another certified banger from our main man
I was raised Southern and Independent Baptist. The bridal imagery is still very common among them.
How is it? With what purpose?
@@ronaldm.7101 It might be similar to how Catholicism still uses this imagery too. The Church is often referred to as the bride of Christ, and so becoming baptized into the Church is supposed to place you in an intimate and binding relationship with God.
I was hoping for a video about the Valentinians! Delightful.
What about more about ancient Egypt?
Ra? Anubis? The Ankh? The Uas? The Djed?
I really enjoyed this! Thank you.
great content and delivery. I'm wondering if you use similar terms like "myths" when referring to modern or orthodox christianity and how you parse one individuals cosmic conclusions as non-myth compared to anothers.
A friend of mine is reading about these things because she believes in them and wants to learn and put them in practice. She really appreciates these videos.
Just tell her to choose her sources carefully. A lot of ancient Christian writings have been destroyed, altered, or slandered if they did not conform to the more popular Christian ideologies. A lot of info you might find about these groups doesn't accurately reflect the actual beliefs and practices if these early Christians.
Look into catholic apologists like Jimmy akin, both of you.
I'm Gnostic and very happy to be one. The Nag Hammadi Scriptures is my holy Bible.
This is very interesting. Thankyou for presenting this. Its important to know stuff like this. More people should i think...know this stuff
Know what? That Christians are just a stupid cult like every other stupid cult? I agree
I thought this video was about the imperial dynasty of the late Roman empire lol- Great video as always although I really get confused when Christology starts mentioning concepts such as Gods natures, essence and substance. Like the disputes of chalcedonian and miaphysitism.
'The Angel of Great Counsel' is a title given to Christ in the NT. The Valentinians were originally not distinct from primitive Christianity but rather an inner dimension of esoterism within the early Church with their secret sacramental initiations of Apolytrosis and the Bridal Chamber for the Pneumatic Christians as well as the Psychic Christians. The Valentinian categorization of Pneumatic, Psychic and Hylic types of human is similar to the Divyabhava, Virabhava and Pashubhava in Indian Tantrik traditions.
As a Cathar, hearing people discus gnostic christianity is awesome!
There is always something so tempting, so exotic, yet oddly familiar sounding about gnostic theologies. I don't believe any of it, but they are strangely convincing for ideas that just popped into the minds of baffled people.
Thanks for this video. I'm personally fascinated by early Christian "heresies" - particularly "gnostic" ones - but I've always wondered one thing. Did this cosmology come from somewhere? It seems awfully complex to have just been conjured from nothing by one or a few authors. I mean, it's not unheard of (see the cosmology of Scientology), but given how much of what you find in Old Testament cosmology you can see as related to other nearby faiths (in some cases preceding all the way back to PIE religion, with things like the construction of Yahweh as a storm god in conflict with Leviathan, in keeping with the Chaoskampf), is there some other "pagan" source from whence the Sethian and Valentenian cosmologies developed? I think I understand some of the Neoplatonic influences, but I can't find any non-Christian belief systems featuring cosmologies similar to the sort of complex structure you see in something like Sethianism.
Is there any literature that I could read that would shed some light on this particular aspect? I would love to see an actual video to help explain it in ley terms, but if that's not in the cards, are there any scholars who have written on this particular subject?
Gnostic cosmology is a combination of subverted abrahamic systems and greatly inspired by existing greek systems. Lot of platonic concepts. Things like the demiurge, concepts of archons, the pleroma, the Sophia, etc. are from greek beliefs prior to. Some concepts are in the new testament as well, but in terminology, and not in a literal sharing of the same concept. like the pleroma is used in the new testament but not in reference to a realm above the creator god.
Dr. Ehrman needs your suggestion as another book topic.
That guy is a loser
If I'm not mistaken, the idea of "emnations of the divine" (but not the specifics here) begins with Plotinus' interpretation of Plato and continues through the later neoplatonists.
In part, it simply elaborates on the cosmic pattern found in orthodox Christianity: in orthodox Christianity, Satan is the ruler of this world but God comes in the person of Jesus Christ to reclaim what is His, and the dualistic Gnostic cosmologies simply elaborated on this. In part, it is a sort of Platonic syncretism. And in part, it is, in my opinion, based on legitimate confusion regarding what Paul meant in his epistles; a confusion that lasts even to this day, as you'll see with the disagreements between Protestantism and Catholicism/Orthodoxy on what Paul believed concerning the Law and the relationship between faith and works (although we see from the writings of Clement of Alexandria that the Gnostic vs. Orthodox dispute was rather about faith and knowledge). I mean, it's not hard to read Galatians and see how Paul could have easily been interpreted as having the same kind of cosmology as the Valentinians.
I feel "Gnosticism" explains our reality the best.
I know this is a weird idea but could you do a video on Demon Slayer? The characters in that show practice a form of Buddhism I had no idea existed. They often talk about heaven and hell, gods and Buddhas in plural. I don't know if it's the same type of religion you've mentioned in previous videos about Japan or a form of Buddhism unique to the time period the story is set in. Still, all your videos are great.
You don’t know much about Buddhism then, I don’t know what to tell you. Educate yourself?
@@jeremyg7261 Always happy to learn new things
Another fascinating look at Early Christian belief! Each of your lectures, Andrew, is filled with investigative zeal and enrichment that stimulate our curiosity and reflection on what our beliefs are based on.
Do you think that Valentinus (or his teachers) would have had access to the yogic idea of the three gunas when formulating the concept behind three essences (hylic, psychic, pneumatic) ?
Ur explanations are so succinct. Can I suggest that you slow down all speech by 10% and increase your pause time by same after every period. Nmb but honestly think it’ll work ❤
I always marvel at how efficient the Orthodox Christians were at systematically wiping out all the diverse heterodox Christians of the Ante-Nicene period and their written sources.
I was just thinking something similar when Andrew at the end of the video talked about the general attitude of valentinians. Seems like they were too meek or not enough aggressive and competitive compared to other sects. Evolution and selection operate on culture in a similar way they operate on biology. The more aggressive (or resilient) organisms often cause the extinction of the weaker ones.
“Cancel Culture” is not a modern invention. 😄
@@pansepot1490 Violence was not the characteristic of Orthodox Christians only, but of the whole period.
In the period from the end of the Antonine dynasty to the beginning of the Carolingian Renaissance, Western Europe was engulfed in wars, famines, diseases and natural disasters.
The victory of orthodoxy over heterodoxy has little to do with aggressiveness and competitiveness. Orthodoxy was (and apparently still is) strictly linked with hierarchical elitism and authoritarianism. These reactionary ideologies thrive is periods of distress and depression.
Best yet.
Thank you.
That was fascinating. Indeed up to now i had the impression that all gnostic sects somewhat were the same belief in a way like all evangelical sects can be derived from the same basic principles/doctrines... That it could be a way more diverse group than that has never before come up. We know much to little about these early "heretics" and how it all connects. Seems that the various side branches that grew out of the "unified church" would help us complete that knowledge and understand the things that happened in "mainstream" christianity a lot better.
no quotation marks on heretics. They were heretics. Call heretics for what they are, that is heretics.
@@tafazzi-on-discord No they were just as much morons as the rest and only had the misfortuner to LOSE the power struggle, and were getting called out as "heretics" by the vengeful winners.
As in this whole story there simply is no "true faith", you cannot have the wrong one, therefore nobody is a "heretic" without quotation marks. Only unlucky lunatics and lucky lunatics.
@@tafazzi-on-discord Gnostics weren't heretics and if anything they were the true prevailer of christianity, the true christianity.
@@pixelcount350 Lol not at all! True christians know that the Bride of Chrust is moved and animated by the Spirits, we would have never bulled the gnostics as heretics if they were Christ's true bretheren!
@@tafazzi-on-discord You really don't see the corruption in the current Christianity? Your to far gone. To brainwashed to really see the truth.
We Are Here
You say that the hylic, psychic, pneumatic categories of human are derived from Paul. Was Paul influenced by Plato's tripartite soul, or the three categories of human, i.e., gold, silver, bronze?
Bridal symbolism is all throughout the New Testament so I don’t know why you’d say that’s weird for present day Christians. Even Christians who don’t read the Bible (a lot if not most) love the bridegroom metaphor and you hear it mentioned at like every other wedding.
That Poem at the beginning was sooooo beautiful. One time I had a vision with my eyes open, it was the strongest vision I ever had. It was like I got transported to the throne of God but when it was my turn to stand before him the light was so strong and so bright and it was coupled with this indescribable sense of Majesty, reverence and the deepest fear Ive ever felt. So when I hear beautiful language to describe Gods light and I recognize the yearning to be close to the feet of the all attractive…. It just (sigh) I feel like someone else gets it.
!
Valentinius didn't almost become "a bishop", he almost became Bishop of Rome, ie, the Pope. I think that is important to note.
Another note: not only did many Gnostics appreciate the writing of Paul, in fact Marion (a gnostic) was the first to collect the letters of Paul and give them a high degree of importance. Marcion brought these letter to Rome and published them. Quotations from Paul in the Orthodox church fathers show up rather late. He wasn't universally known, and his writings were not universally taken as scripture, for a long time. If modern Christians enjoy the Pauline epistles, they should thank the Gnostics for saving them.
Paul's epistles are replete with Gnostic references. Especially his ecstasy into the third heaven, hearing words that are not lawful to utter.
Addressing the intro: Those heretical groups mentioned are absolutely not christian, though they may have called themselves so. At that time there was no distinction between "christian" and what would later come to be called catholic. Persistent followers of heresies were anathematized, and thus excommunicated, and thus put outside of the community by their own choices. Individuals dont get to decide they belong to a group, rather the group defines what individuals belong to it. To conclude, no, they were not christians and no, saying such is not a slander campaign on the part of the victors
It's just a game of definitions. If someone defines Christian as only this or these certain groups, that definition might not be universal. From a historical and scholarly point of view, these groups were Christian in that they followed and taught about a Christ figure.
@@yosh3058 that would be an anachronistic interpretation of this. At the time, the anti heretical figures were certainly not using christian to mean "taught about a christ figure", they definitely meant joined to christs singular church. Therefore, no these groups are not christian, unless we are using christian in the different more broad definition that didnt exist at the time. Under such a broad definition, islam is also a christian religion, but it has never been considered so, because it is considered a christian heresy, and thus separated from what it means to be in the group "christian"
Hasn't the church clarified that people who end up following schismatic heretic priests and leaders out of their inability to discern the truth, like most lay people born in orthodox or protestant community today, aren't in a state of sin? So some followers of Valentine were chistians since it doesn't appear like valentinians priests made the lay people attending their gatherings commit apostasy...
@@tafazzi-on-discord Its individuals who knowingly persist in heresy after a definitive teaching that separate themselves via their actions from the church, and bear larger culpability for the sin of heresy.
An individual who intends to be part of the church and who holds incorrect understanding of their faith through innocent ignorance of the definitive teaching is still within the church it is true, hence the saints campaigning against heresies, in order to enlighten the ignorant and call the mistaken to truth. However this also means after this time those who knowingly hold these mistaken understandings that the church is trying to correct, while they may think of themselves as christian, they are certainly not, by virtue of their own choices
in regard to orthodox or protestant who do not know the full revealed truth, they are what we would now call christian, which has evolved to become the umbrella term for followers of christ. At that time christian and catholic meant the same thing. Speaking in terms of todays language, innocently ignorant orthodox or protestants are not culpable for the sins of schism or heresy, but they do not intend to be a part of the church that is christs one church so they are not catholic. but as followers of christ they are what we now use as the umbrella term christian
I think the concept of 'aeon' has its original root in Indian religious philosophy and commonly used in many varieties for an incredibe timespan. In Buddhist cosmology, a 'great aeon' or mahākappa means the length of time needed for the formation and destruction of a universe [or the collection of wheel-turning words (Cakkavala )] that generally consists of four phases of sub-aeons: the forming, the growing/sustaining, the contraction/declining, and voidness.
The usage of Buddhist eons as Kalpas to Mahakalpas are more used in empirical definition akin to how Aions and Seasons and Days being used by Greco-Roman Pantheons, although Buddhism conflations of Kalpas with anti-Vedic/contra devas/devis-supremacy with human agencies to be potentially above them (through becoming Buddhas) is the themes of Buddhism's concept of Samsara and Nirvana, this also expanded further in Mahayana and Vajrayana sects of Buddhism, just like how Essenes for Judaism and Valentinian school for Christians, heck even Mandaeism has said tendencies, although Mandaeans with each centuries going to becoming more eventually exclusivist despite the Baptism was originally open to everyone and anyone by John The Baptist (much like Buddhism original purposes to breakdown Vedic-centrism and Brahmanic castes in their Sramanic folds)
PseudoTertulian sounds like the 5th teenage mutant ninja turtle
“It was not the mixture, O men, of blood and breath that made the beginning and substance of your souls, though your earthborn and mortal body is framed of those things. But your soul has come hither from another place.”
It is interesting to me the seemingly similar viewpoints of the Valentinians and Greeks in regards to the Father and Jesus, and that of Cronus and Zeus. Is there evidence that Valentinus may have been influenced by Greek philosophy in developing his theology? Or, perhaps Roman theology influencing Valentinus?
In reading Valintinian and Marcionic texts as well as some of the Sethian Gnostic gospels...it seems that these portions of the faith were introduced to the ministry and ressurection of Jesus, but without having any strong basis in Semetic Hebrew traditions or theology. Almost as if Jesus just happened to live in Judea and be surrounded by secular Jewish apostles, born of a young Jewish maid.
The writers seem to be marrying The Christ to their own religions and post Plato cosmology and society. That the Jews were not the plan of the ultimate G-d but tricked children of the lesser material creator demigod, just as the pagan pantheon worshippers were tricked by tales of the Olympians or Ra's lesser court of nature gods.
The Gospel of Judas and Gosoel of Mary Magdalena even show a writer's contempt for the Jews of the era
Tricky stuff. One often assumes the Nicholas Trinitarians to be very eurpoean, but they do embrace judiasm with much more reverence and see Jesus as the final step of human enlightenment started by Moses and The Prophets.
@@STho205 Thank you. Appreciate your time in addressing my questions. So much information.
@@STho205 >G-d
cringe.
@@tafazzi-on-discord antisemite Mr Amazing? Just curious.
@@STho205 There's no reason to do that, in the Old Testament Jews use "El" all the time. "El" is the general term for God, since it's also used to refer to Baal, it has the same function as the word "God" does in english. "God" is not the name if the Trinity, but the Trinity is God, and the true God, that doesn't mean that if i began speaking Hebrew I should censor "El" to "*l" or some other idiocy like that.
I found "Introduction to Gnosticism: Ancient Voices, Christian World" by Nicola Denzey Lewis a great guide on the sources on what we today call Gnosticism, including Flavia Sophe inscription - with explanations on how each text refers to others.