Incredible that the Dead Sun project so brazenly sought to wipe away the lore and characters that make LoK as attractive a series as it is. They may as well have just made up their own world as more of a spiritual successor, but of course Square would want to capitalize on the name recognition while disrespecting the meticulous artistry that has made lifelong fans of so many, even after such a long hiatus. Anyway, great video. Thank you for this. I learned a lot I never knew before!
I am so, so smugly happy that Dead Sun never got off the ground, for how hostile it was to everything that came before and the fans that loved the stuff. All that fucking bravado for nothing, goddamn that's scrumdiddly
Thanks for taking the time to put this video together, very well done and very interesting! However after hearing that the devs had contempt for the previous games in the LOK series and showed them disrespect in the form of the play , that is enough to convince me it was a good thing dead sun was not released. Honestly, even if they wanted to do a reboot and ignore previous elements, nothing turns me off than devs trying to antagonise their own fan base. Seems to be a trend with a lot of franchises these days so I’m glad this didn’t come out after hearing this. (After hearing your description of the play, that was the way I interpreted it anyway) At the end of the day if we eventually get a revival of some kind , there’s only one shot to do it right and make a great impression. Blessing in disguise that dead sun never came out imo.
Very well put. I used to advocate for this game until I heard the devs had planned to dispose of the original lore. I do however think it would have been a good stand alone title based in a distant future of Nosgoth with the Legacy of Kain moniker removed.
I always thought that the play at the start was meant to be a nod to the original lore of the series and just a way for them to sneak it in since Square Enix wanted ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE PREVIOUS GAMES INVOLVED (in their words…”without the baggage”) and they knew older fans would despise it without any sort of acknowledgment 🤷🏽♂️ If anything, I see it more as a “we know that you guys want THIS BUT MORE WELL DONE…but the Publisher doesn’t want it at all” and another capitulation that the devs had to keep coming to grips with. They all seemed far less spiteful of the original series and more towards Square Enix when it came to the feedback/broken promises they were being given
The more I learn about Dead Sun, the more I'm convinced we live in the better timeline. Better to leave the story where it was than give it to people who scorned it.
So glad this got canceled, because this was not LoK despite the title, and this was not the game fans wanted. We want a conclusion to our unfinished story; we wanted the Defiance sequel The Dark Prophecy that was in the works to be completed and possibly finish the story.
Would it really make sense to release the end of a relatively niche unfinished story 20 years later? Unless they remake the entire series sans BO2 beforehand…
Well, thank you for all this. The deep dive really affirmed what we already knew: the genesis of boring, open, procedural generated tripe of EA style Creeds, Shadow of Mordor, and later GoW poisoned it. Along with the "liveservice" ideas, this chasing of market trends generated a bland, boring least common denominator game. In short: "Money! Get us money! Get us those Call of Duty, dorrito and mtn dew bros in here! Make it eeeddggyyy!" There are fragments of interesting ideas in there, but damn I'm kinda glad it didn't see the light of day. Even if I enjoyed Nosgoth's later adding on to the Soul Reaver Lore and drew on bits of Blood Omen to do it.
How strange for them to throw the LoK lore out for being convulted only to make the most convulted storyline I've ever heard to replace it. Anyway, PATHS NEED TO BE REBUILT.
@@forgot7en Not even fanfic as it doesn't even feature the original characters. It's just someone's half-baked """mature""" dark fantasy souls-lore ripoff with the LoK brand slapped on it for publicity
This is the most cosmically epic video I've ever watched about this lost VG, thank you so much for giving it to us, we infinitely appreciate it. Although: I almost died of laughing with blooper at the end 🤣🤣🤣🤣 you guys are the best ❤️ greeting ad so much love from Cuban🇨🇺 fans of you and this beautiful franchise of ours ❤️❤️❤️
@@forgot7en Blood Omen 2 at least worked with Kain's personality. The dialogue writing was still clever. It expanded upon the lore and made the Hylden out to be memorable villains instead of faceless puppeteers. This is nowhere near close enough to BO 2's quality, which was lacking to begin with.
@@tamerofhorses2200 Yeah I just said this is faaaar worse. Did you miss that part where I said this is faaaar worse? Because I thought I said this is faaaar worse.
When I first learned about this game being cancelled many years ago I was very sad. But the more and more I learned about it the more glad I was that it never saw the light of day. Maybe this could have been a new IP or something, but never a LOK related game. The combat reminds me of Prototype game a lot, which I like.
1:17:17 ooooohhhh SHOTS FIRED!!!! 😆 While I can empathize with all the work Climax put in this game and am happy they pulled themselves out of despair, I am now fully glad this game was cancelled. Ever since hearing about Dead Sun, I had always been a little curious on what the game could have been, but after seeing this entire documentary full of stuff I had no idea about, especially the story direction, yeah, so glad it got canned.
Thank you for talking about my most beloved niche franchise. I cant get enough of it and you do a really great job on answering some of my lost questions on this series
Great video guys (another great one) but im glad this game didnt see the light of day ufff..... on the otherhand would love to se legacy of kain dark prophecy release because it would've been a continuation to Defiance and thats what most of us want, Would love to see you guys do a dedicated video on LoK: Dark Prophecy :) Keep up the good work guys
thanks as always for your time and effort. Aside what could have been with another title, its also interesting to see, how LOK has influenced so many "offspring" games like tomb raider entries or the asassins creed series. I'm glad this didnt turn out a sequel to LOK. Ridiculous inconsistent story / background. If it is so difficult for a modern story writer to sequel the epic characters of Kain and Raziel, they could focus on side characters of the established franchise as well instead of just throwing pieces of a husk on their own games. Vorador seemed stronlgy invested in his revenge for Janos being assassinated with his rampage on the circle of nine. His motives could at least fill a chapter or two. Or Janos insight on the human revolt against the antique vampires or the Hylden war with its consequent fall of the vampire race. So much to delve into. But it would all need a modern writer to 1 know the lore 2 respect the lore 3 understand the fanbase 4 respect the fanbase I love LOK as a dead franchise rather than see it ruined by another undead writer imitation...
If they screwed up Silent Hill, there's no way they would have nailed Legacy of Kain, especially when its story and lore is even more complex. I'm glad this got the axe. It looks like any other title with the same gameplay checklists of the time, when one of the biggest reasons Legacy of Kain fans loved the series was that it was so different from its contemporaries.
Awesome and in-depth video as always! Despite my distaste for Dead Sun there was some hard work done on the project, despite it being all based on very flawed concept and probably biggest example of showing middlefinger to your existing audience, at least until we had some of the game companies deciding their old games and fans are problematic based on political ideologies...
I first saw your name on a reddit comment you left in LoK sub about SR1 and the whole wrace thing. Then got this video recommended to me and had to double take to confirm it was the same name i saw on reddit lol Good work man, great video!
Anytime I hear the words "Call of Duty" and "Inspiration" used together as a positive thing, I know it is the end of more lore-heavy story-based series, since they are dumbing down the story in favor of heavy action and no actual story to speak of, not to mention heavy multiplayer aspects.
Thank you so much for this! I was really excited to hear there'd be a video about anything and everything else that wasn't made public. I was totally devastated when I heard the project got cancelled, if only because I was starved of *anything* new to chew on. A shame they couldn't get the right funding and actually use the lore we care about. Also great bloopers, thank you for including those haha!
Square: "Nah, it’s not gonna be well received, let’s not risk losing money and pissing off the fans." Also Square: "Oh by the way, why not separately release that multiplayer mode that barely has any connection to the series? Surely fans will love it!"
It looks like a game that absolutely didn't understand what fans need, and yet at this point I can safely say that many of us would definitely take over having a bunch of nothing for almost 20 years (yeah, I'm not counting Nosgoth)
13:27 LOL what does that even mean? Soul Reaver takes place 1000+ years in the future in a Lovecraftian Apocalypse. We're gonna ignore that happened? I assume no one knew what the story actually was, and several of them also never cared. Personally, Dead Sun's ideas always sounded tacky and lame even out of context of the LoK series, and when they were repurposed into the Lord of the Rings universe, it was just as bad.
As much of a controversial game as Dead Sun was (and I'll be honest glad it wasn't released) it's still nice to see it getting some recognition as it was an interesting game to say the least.😅 If it wasn't linked to Legacy of Kain and was a game of itself (which yes means major changes but can be possible to either be heavily influenced or a spiritual successor like Deadhaus Sonata) then maybe Dead Sun would've been a great Vampire game, just didn't feel like it's predecessor games and certainly differed and didn't live up to the series which unpleased many LoK fans and with the development mess it went through. (Side note I actually liked the look of Nosgoth before it shut down which is a shame but hey ho) Really good video Raina and as a sucker for cut content/cancelled games (Wished Dark Prophecy was made) I loved this video. Keep up with the amazing work, sorry for the long comment, thanks you, you are amazing👍
I don't know how you can say it "could've been a great Vampire game" when, at a glance, it is impossible to tell that the character is a vampire at all. He shares more in common with Raziel, who was a wraith in every game.
@@forgot7en Although yes I can see what you're going by, considering that it was a heavily Vampire themed game, not too mention that Gein/Asher was more leaning to the Vampire side than a Wraith (especially since Gein was an actual Vampire and you could still drink blood from what I seen which is like Dumah ability from Soul Reaver 1 since he could also go into the spectral realm as well as the soul sucking ability) I think that's why me and a lot of other people say it as a Vampire Game but the term Fantasy Horror is more probably accurate to it.😅 (Edit-typo)
Great video! Glad it didn't make it in the LoK series though, even though it tries to imitate certain aspects of it, it does not have the caliber nor the heart.
Thank you for this, ive always been curious about seeing more of what could have been from dead Sun, glad to see more gameplay and learn more of the story, that being said I am ultimately glad this game was cancelled as I am sure discarding and ruining the established history would have potentially made my favorite series of all time one of my least favorites. One thing not mentioned in this video is how ashen is able to maintain the same bodily appearance unlike Raziel after his body is dissolved by his attempted suicide?
It's not really explicitly touched upon in the sources so i didn't highlight it in the video but going by previous lore and what we do know from dead sun it would seem that the manifestation of form by a wraith entity somewhat reflects their mental state. The Saradin realm shifting vampires had spent years undergoing ritual torture to prepare themselves to shift between realms. For Raziel it was a much more sudden and unexpected shock tainted by betrayal and his ragged state reflected his fall from grace. In short: They knew what they were getting into and could thus be mentally prepared for it in a way Raziel could not.
@@bazlmoon I considered this theory since you mentioned the vampires training themselves to be able to shift into spectral but still I'm not sure if it makes sense, Ashens mental state would likely be similar to Raziel with the loss of his wife and child along side his sudden death. While we are discussing realm shifting there are vampires such as Melchiah in Sr1 that are able to pursue Raziel into the spectral realm. I've always wondered about this too, in the case of melchiah was his simply peering into spectral and could phase through it to inflict damage or was he full shifting back and forth? My theory has been the world was so corrupted at this point all dimensions both Demon and spectral were able to bleed through into the physical realm as its integrity crumbled and those who's souls were also ancient enough and beyond death enough would have access to peer into these other worlds having a part of their soul tainted by them. This is my theory. Dumah I believe can also peer into spectral but at least in his case we know he spent some centuries in it and was able to adapt to it.
Honestly, I was really excited about the idea of a timeline in which Raziel killed the vampires like in the original script, I didn't know that, and the contrast of op Kain returning with all his glorified eloquance, what a cool contrast that would be. Did anyone mention the Lok survey the cut content? I said that it was very loved by the fans and that having a time chamber in play it would be a waste not to explore it at least as replayability. Can you imagine, playing with the camera, that at a certain point the pillars explode and are replaced by the tentacles of the ancient god? Thanks for your work.
As a lifelong LoK fan, I admit I have mixed feelings about Dead Sun. The psudo-departure from the rest of LoK lore bugs me, but at the same time, I see the potential here. Something like a "what if" scenario, like if Kain accepted the sacrifice, what would have happened, that type of thing. The gameplay looks fun, especially the seamless transition between physical and spiritual realms, but that does sound like a technical barrier at the time unfortunately. Ultimately, I like that the game tried to do something different even if it failed in the end.
I had my doubts about this game but after watching this i`m actually glad it got canceled. One thing though. I had to play this video at 1.25 speed and it still felt sluggish at times :P
This video was very interesting and enlightening and just further cemented my view that the best thing that could have ever happened to the Legacy of Kain fandom was for Dead Sun to be cancelled. Dead Sun COULD have been an interesting and fun game if it had been completely removed from Legacy of Kain and wrote around its own original lore/story with no attachment to LoK whatsoever. For all the lore it tossed aside it mind as well should have been. The most ridiculous and infuriating notion of the modern age remakes of games/movies/etc is to completely "reimagine" a world and its lore, alternatively ignore said lore, or rewrite characters to be so far removed from who they were they are unrecognizable to the original fanbase. Clearly Dead Sun had this in spades. Games like Baldur's Gate 3 give me hope that some old IP's can be brought back and handled with care and respect if put into the hands of the right studio and developers (It helps if said studio is actually independent) but it's rare to see such a thing in the current game landscape where quarterly profit reports are the norm for game companies. From what I've seen, original fanbases are typically ignored at best or demonized at worst in the pursuit of profit. As much as I adore the Legacy of Kain Series - it is by far one of my most favored games that is dear to my heart - and desperately want it to be brought back and done the justice it deserves... I'd prefer it stay dead. I'd rather remember it fondly for its unique Shakespearean dialogue delivered by top notch voice actors, its CONVULUTED story and the memorable eloquent characters. Better that than witness the likelihood that some other money driven company being the ones to try and revive Legacy of Kain, proclaim "hold my beer" to Dead Sun, and repeat the same mistakes as Dead Sun, but on steroids. Better a fond memory than seeing it bastardized into something that isn't even a hint of an echo of what once was.
The best thing to ever happened to the franchise, is that this BS was cancelled. If they wanted a "wiped slate clean". Then why not create a new IP? WTF are you doing taking over the name of an IP, if you are ultimately erasing everything that makes that IP. It would have been way better to just create a new IP and put a legend saying "from the creators of Legacy of Kain". And be done with it. Instead of this pile of BS.
"...way better to just create a new IP and put a legend saying: from the creators of Legacy of Kain." Agreed. Would've helped safeguard the purity of the old franchise. Dead Sun could've worked on it's own. Had some wild ideas. Just keep it away from the Kain series.
@@lucascoval828 by its time. Its clear it could have been a "shadows of Mordor" on its own. It could have been a good game! But it was forever doomed to be a shitty LoK game.
I think they believe that there won't be much interest in a brand new framchise and it is a big risk It's far easier to tack it onto an already established and pipular framchise and piggyback on its success But as generally happens in these cases, doing so creates an unwelcome addition to something popular and becomes like a milestone weighing it down
A Legacy of Kain game with no relation to Kain. This is a new peak of the gaming industry. Just make it a new franchise there is no reason to tarnish an existing one with all those kink elements and trashy dialog.
Alas poor Dead Sun. I knew it well.....well not really. Seriously thank god this got cancelled. I don't know what it is with modern development in games, movies and other media where people who actively dislike something are put to work on it and you end up with a product that hates itself and it's own fans. What on earth is going on?
I was so hyped for dead sun... Love Legacy of Kain to death and despite dead sun not being really related to LOK, the game seemed awesome and full of really great ideas. I still hope that one day, dead sun will be revived by some publisher although they would need to redo all graphics. It's a shame because the game seemed so far in development.
As always, great video. Call me crazy, but I prefer an incomplete series to a "new" vision of LOK that completely ignores what made the series great in the first place. There are fates worse than death for a video game series, and IMO this would have been the case. Let's hope the new owners of the IP learn something from this dumpster fire and show some respect for the lore and the fans...
This is kind of mostly off topic but this comment reminded me of an argument I got into in another comment section years ago about how Defiance's ending was the perfect ending to the series, whereas I wanted the story to actually be finished.
Stellar analysis! I feel very relieved that this ended up getting cancelled - although it's got some neat ideas, it definitely doesn't feel like LoK. Some constructive criticism: 1. The intro was way too long - there were far too many preambles 2. Each chapter of the video begins as if it's an entirely new video. E.g. the part where you talk about the characters is treated like you didn't just talk about the entire story 30 seconds ago - it felt a bit like reading the info off of a wiki. Same goes for the rest of the chapters Still, you've got a very good voice for narration and the level of detail in this documentary is absolutely amazing! I can't even begin to imagine how long it must have taken to put this whole thing together :D
Thanks for the kind words and the considered feedback. I'll keep these in mind moving forward. Funnily enough I've been writing for the LoK wiki for a long time so the style may have rubbed off on my presentations.
@@bazlmoon "Funnily enough I've been writing for the LoK wiki for a long time so the style may have rubbed off on my presentations." Wow, really? Back in early high school (2008-2009), I spent quite a long time on a couple of Bulgarian LoK forums, translating content from various wikis :D Who knows I might have translated something written by you :D
I'm sorry but the story here is even more convoluted than that of the original Lok and it is in addition simply god awful. I am supremely happy that it was cancelled.
I normally don’t feel relief at a game’s cancellation, but the blatant lack of respect and love for the franchise would have not only doomed this game at launch, but possibly any hope of renewed interest, such as the remasters around the corner. The executives who thought the changes were a good idea shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a creative project ever again.
@@ramonterrell1897 amen. It's like they intentionally went out of their way during development to crap on the series they were making a new entry for. Like why? Why would you want to do that as a project if you already don't like the existing story? You think it was a pure ego thing?
@ oftentimes when another takes up the task of adapting or continuing a story, they think they can do better. We see this sometimes with Hollywood adaptations. In this case, it could be such ego, or similar in the form of them not admitting to themselves that they had the chops to do the story justice. We’re not likely to ever know, but it’s fortunate this project did not make it, IMO.
I've enjoyed a lot your compehensive review of the project, as I usually do with your other videos. I'm a fan of LoK series, SR1 was one of the first videogames I'd ever played back then, and it's always a pleasure for me to replay them from time to time. That said, if I can speak my mind, I do think that, despite this project actively seeking to distance itself from the established lore of the series, it shows a lot of potential, as you very well point at several times through the video. Some of its aspects look astonishing; I particularly enjoyed how they intended to make the spectral realm a much more integrated, real-time mechanic than in the previous installments; I agree with you upon what you say about some aspects of the new combat system, as I think it's a breath of fresh air in that regard. Even knowing, of course, that these elements deviate from what was previously established. But as a graphic artist, probably the aspect I found absolutely the most heartbreaking is how they cancelled the project all of a sudden after all this work was made, for, as you mention, even if the actual direction the game was taking would've probably disappointed the existing fanbase profoundly, it seems that a lot of talent and hard work had been put upon it to try and make it happen. I think it would've been very interesting playing the game if it had been developed and finally released, even knowing that probably it wouldn't follow the established lore from the previous games; and even more knowing that they had intended the game to follow what was initially planned for SR1 but had to been cut off at the end. Maybe as you say, it just wasn't the right game at the right time; but I think Climax had the potential and talent to develop an interesting proposal, one brimming with possibilities and ways to reinvent some of the elements from the original games. Again, thanks for your video: it's an oustanding, grounded analysis, and I enjoyed it a lot!
So SquareEnix cancelled Dead Sun through fear of backlash from the community.. and yet released Nosgoth.. well that didn't do much for the franchise.. I never even bothered looking at it and I love LOK..
At least Nosgoth followed the story. I never got to play it since they cancelled it even though they hyping the hell out of it. Cancelling DS makes sense. But it would have been good as it's own game outside the franchise.
This seemed to have all of the drawbacks of an ubisoft open world game with the addition of pulling a swicheroo and nullifying the interesting lore and story of LoK. Kind of glad it was cancelled.
Glad this was cancelled. This is clearly not LOK. This could have been it's own game though. Regardless... this presentation is probably more interesting than what the game would have been. Everything I had seen of the game itself looked and felt clunky and amateur. It lacked atmosphere and finesse. I see the LOK series evolving into something like Bloodborne.... this is more like a batman or spiderman game
Dam dude ive tryed to watch this video 7 times after work i keep falling a sleep got some top tier asmr bro . 😂 awsome work ive finally finished it great vid.
Realistically the different time could have easily been explained by Raziel and Kain are still up to "no good" in the past. Maybe something that managed to restore some life to Nosgoth but not fully healing the land. I am sure if I managed to come up with this excuse so could they, if they wanted to honor the games before. Also things such as gore for the sake of gore and lack of elocvent speech could also be explained. Gore actually doesn't even need to be. SR1 starts with Kain tearing of Raziel's wings, it is not like the original team shied away from these stuff. The brute speech can be explained by the proud clans are gone, all there is left is almost tribe-like groups.
you can easily whip up a hand wave excuse, but continuing the story and feeling of legacy of kain in a way that feels right requires love and extreme writing talent. something lacking in what i saw here
There are ways and excuses that can be used to create a story on Nosgoth without meddling with the events of the main story. Something that would still require massive efforts, knowledge and talent. But what its shown on this video (great job by the author) is complete and utter garbage done by clueless people who were cannibalizing the fame of an IP.
As someone who has been a longtime fan of the franchise from a distance, I would have been very keen to see how this all worked out. I like the ideas presented and it’s easy to find enjoyment in a reverse talion aka shadow of Mordor situation. People complain that there is much less theatrics at play and who knows, maybe that stays that way, but the tone is still there, they just aren’t using fancy words to describe it, which is an aspect I loved sure, but it doesn’t mean that if kain or raziel where to show up that they will speak the same as the new protagonist. And besides we don’t know the narrative. It might have lead up to some very intense and dramatic events if they had the right writers.
It's interesting to compare indeed with Shadow of Mordor situation...as both the Dead Sun and Shadow of Mordor felt like kind of different....takes on their respective franchises :) (and one can easily say that in terms of writing and epicness Legacy of Kain is like Lord of the Rings of video games :)) but also both showing certain worrying symptoms....of certain disrespect for their properties and wild fanfctiony variation of it...Dead Sun writing seems...unrefined in a way that is just mimicking the 'cool dark edgy' style that Shadow of Mordor had towards the Lord of the Rings world and story going wildly off rails when it comes to lore and doing crazy stuff. In terms of superficial similarities...both Shadow of Mordor and Dead Sun even have that familiar feel in terms of gameplay, the more complex themes of story though being sidelined for the cheaper rule of cool, dumbing down. The certain concepts of Legacy of Kain world being twisted in the Dead Sun just like many of the aspects of Lotr lore being twisted in the SoM games :). Lord of the Rings and relation to Shadow of Mordor is a whole complex issue but it ultimately is similar to how Dead Sun approached the Legacy of Kain franchise...both kind of...try to modernize their premises, their worlds trying to make them 'new and exciting' but also somewhat losing the heart and essence of the original. Of course all of those might have been just impressions based on what little we have seen....though the 'lore' of LoK didn't seem to be in the center of attention in a way that SoM treated Tolkien's lore :). Talion example and his state of being possessed by spirit of an elf-lord, and the similarity with the protagonist of Dead Sun a spirit of vampire but it's a man that is in vampire body really :) (I wonder how the 'vampire wraiths' would feature into that...the Soul Reaver dealt with the spirits of vampires that were too long in Spectral). Who knows what fully might have been but it doesn't stop the thought that both SoM and Dead Sun seem like outliers to their respective franchises.
I like the ideas presented here as well since the Saradin could very easily be explained as the descendants of Raziel’s clan of vampires, with Gein possibly being the “modern version of Kain w/ a twist of Raziel”. It plays into the whole “Vampire Evolution” plot element that was presented in the first Soul Reaver along with the Human/Vampire Hybrid (Saul) meant to be the main antagonist of the game 🤔 It’s implied to have been MILLENIA since the events of Soul Reaver 1 (and by extension everything before & afterwards) which themselves take place long after the events of Blood Omen 1 + 2, so there’s so much they can establish in this “future timeline” that they could very easily build backwards from in a way similar to games like NieR/NieR Automata/Drakengard 1 and Drakengard 3 since it’s all one timeline with a definite Beginning & Ending (IF you can parse it yourself…) What had me the most interested here is the idea of Kain still possibly existing (or how they explain his passing) either as the (possible) “Vampire JFK” that would be revealed to have “sired” Saul to begin with and it being possible thanks to his Vampire Evolution manifesting after 10s of 1000s of Years…or in the same way he did Biblically: cursed into walking Nosgoth eternally for the most grave of Sin in the eyes of the Wheel of Fate…cheating it and “making the coin land on its side” There’s so many amazing places they could’ve taken the franchise (and possibly did but never got it out) that I feel like Dead Sun was meant to be the start of a new Trilogy/Quadrilogy meant to work backwards & forwards much like SR into Blood Omen 2 & Soul Reaver 2 did into their own version of Defiance where we get definitive answers on why the Younger BO2 Kain was ended by his Defiance/Dark Prophecy Older counterpart and/or how Kain was finally able to get Raziel to sound the Silent Cathedral in one of the “go-arounds” across the timelines. However…Square-Enix themselves were too keen on disregarding the lore and over time probably felt it was “too complex” and cancelled it since they didn’t want a repeat of what happened to franchises like Deus Ex (DeX2IW being an example), Tomb Raider (AoD), or even the also then-in-development Final Fantasy Versus XIII (an EXTREMELY tragic story of development hell and cancellation)…so they didn’t even bother. This is why I wish we could at least get the leaks for what would’ve ultimately been the final story treatments & drafts/scripts for some sort of closure
You can say that again. The obsession of excessive swearing and bare titties and other teenage garbage was just horrible and I hated pretty much every mainstream game from that era. I'm glad Legacy of Kain was spared that disgusting taint. I'm equally glad that no LOK games came out in the last few years, or Kain would've been secretly an african woman who identifies as a man.
Yeah, it's basically the same story we hear over and over and over and still holds true and it's the one lesson the gaming industry still has yet to internalize. When the executive suite gets involved, your game is going to suck. Because they're not driven by making good games, they're driven by "number go up," and they think the key to that is just to chase trends and "make it like this other game because this game makes money so if we make it like this game we'll make the same money." The gaming industry is worse than Hollywood in that respect. Also, Dead Sun was just ugly. I mean everything about it was god awful ugly.
GIGACHAD VIDEO LIKE ALWAYS. Can't imagine the time behind to collect all this info and edit the video with you as narrator. By the way, since I'm Italian, i think my english is fairly good but even with subtitles on, some parts i struggled to understand the correct meaning, it's not about the british accent but more for the "Refine Language" which sometimes seems like to hear a dialogue of the reach of Soul Reaver. Anyway speaking about Dead Sun, damn fans of Legacy of Kain are so thirsty we don't have a game since ages, i can't wait for any news which probably in the years (i imagine) will come... i can't wait for a Remake or a New IP with the creators of Legacy or Blood Omen franchise. Also didn't know all this story between Climax, Eidos, Crystal Dynamics and Square Enix so complicated!!!
Great video i love learning about the development history of both canceld and released games i actually got my intrest in Lok because of Dead Sun after i watched Matt Macmuscles Wha Happun epsiode on it i had heard of the franschice because i had watched Mandaloregamings review of Blood Omen but didnt know much beyond that my interest in the franschice grew as i started learning more about the lore even though i have never played the games because i was way too young when they where comming out. Even though DeadSun didnt share many themes with the orignal games i still think it could have been a cool game in general the visuals athmosphere and the gameplay looks really apealing to me personally wich is why im disapointed it got canned here is hoping Embracer Group actually does something with the ip imagine how cool a new Lok game could look like in an engine like Unreal Engine 5
So this is the experience of a vertical slice of cheese, interesting. Really awesome video, not too fond of the game as a part of LoK, but a stand-alone would be an interesting play for sure.
Goddamn am I sooooo glad Square sold off their western developers and their IP's because they literally have no clue about those type of genres and it's best they stick to what they do best, JRPG's.
They can hardly do that even and this is coming from me as a fan of FF series, the good ones atleast. I too will second the view that these IPs are freed from the incompetent shackles of Squenix. And am I the only one that is fed up with the countless TombRaider games they released as so many were just slightly above average at best, yet they kept chugging them out in an age were people really want top-tier story, lore and character voice work and they had the IP of all IPs for that ( LOK ) and decided nah, vampires aren't cool, lets make a online multi-player thingy instead! They also messed up another great in Deus Ex because of greed despite a great first entry and Hitman series because of the awesome and innovative concept of less is more (sarcasm ) release of chunks of a full game over the course of a year and wonder why it didn't do well!
It's a great look at the particulars, gave me a lot of information I didn't have before... Though, I really have to wonder if it (at least the narration) doesn't suffer from an overly-optimistic view of the gaming industry in general- which really has a long and storied history of a reach that desperately exceeds its grasp. In order to "avoid future mistakes" it's rarely enough simply to point them out to an industry that seems hell-bent on copypasta'ing bad systemic decision-making. Gaming companies don't so much learn history to avoid repeating it as they learn it to more closely emulate it. ...and then guilelessly wondering why all their efforts get Hindenberg-style send-offs.
Also Denis Dydack with Blood Omen LOK had Aleister Crowleys Aeon of Horus at the start of the game. There is a Magical operation of maximum importance; the Initiation of a New Aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a Word, the whole Planet must be bathed in blood...
It could have been a spinoff in a different timeline and while the gameplay by today's standard looks formulaic (Arkham/Protoype combat and traversing), it could have been an interesting game, provided you said "ok it's not a LoK sequel, it's a spinoff", I suppose.
50:02 I kept seeing the Arkham games or Shadow of Mordor spoken in this video, but I honestly believe the gameplay to Dead Sun resembles Prince of Persia 2008 a lot more than anything else......
In fact, unlike many, it doesn't seem like a bad game to me, and seeing as they handled that it's an alternate world, I feel like I could have enjoyed it. Just like the Devil may Cry series had a wild ride D.M.C., which reminds me a lot of this, as it was more down to earth, vulgar, and violent in its depiction. And I liked that one too, unlike many fans.
What is the deal with studios hating the franchises they suppose to reboot? Climax hating Lok, Crystal Dynamics allegedly despising classic Tomb Raider games... It seems like industry is full of worst kind of nerds
Don't forget what Capcom tried to do with Devil May Cry. Studio and game company heads all want one thing: to make money. They think that by changing stories to attract new fans will make games more successful but they forget about their core fanbase. By doing that, what and who made the IP popular goes away and oftentimes, the new game doesn't reach the heights that the original games did and the whole series goes away.
The people who have been hired into the industry in the past 10 years are not the same type of people who gave the impetus to the gaming industry 20-30 years ago. Most of the people writing and conceptualising games now are activists and status-hungry or spiteful paper-pushers who couldnt give two shits whether a game flew or crashed and burnt. In fact, most of them see the gaming hobby as "toxic" so they want to actively deconstruct it like they do with every other industry (see movies, literature, academia etc.)
As a 10 year old kid when i started playing this series, i have to question the intelligence of a writer when they call it convoluted(or worse). Especially considering it was made by Amy Hennig, someone who i don't believe has made anything less than wildly successful game stories, and i dont think she's been negative towards her early works either.
While the comparison was made to Shadow of Mordor, which plotwise it is weirdly similar to from a set up point, what I'm getting from this is DmC. The sense where they are embarrassed to be making a sequel/reboot to their respective series, so they have to make it clear that original series was incredibly stupid. Surely that will win people over to their clearly superior edgy work.
I was hoping that game would come out I remember hearing about it back then, then it cancelled and was super sad. Me and my older brother played LOK Defiance as kids. I'm hoping we get a new one someday.
12:16 I'm going to go ahead and say that this is most likely accurate. I looked up this game and it shows the "project lead" is a guy named Sam Barlow. This same Sam Barlow was the writer of Silent Hill: Shattered Memories and a while back he gave an interview talking about a lot of the behind the scenes stuff that went on with the game and how the original version was changed. He then went on to state his original intention was to "fix Silent Hill 3" and at numerous points in the interview he took jabs at the game and it's story. His personality and vibe just came off as pompous and arrogant enough to make the alleged statements here. The guy is a really talented writer but comes off as a bit up his own a**
Thank you for the video in lenght ! I'm pissed at people not respecting the basic material who gaves the name of the franchise. (Witcher's tv series, the movie "I am a legend", etc. etc. etc.). If you want to do something else, go do something else. Don't use the names ! Dead Sun might have been an interesting game, by itself. But that's not really a Lok or SR game. As "Nosgoth" was a joke... Maybe there is something to do in a kind of strategic/mmorpg/beat'em'all when Kain has his general vampires, and starts to conquer the world. There might be places when you can do something a bit different from the firsts games. But that need to be done smartly... and remembering why the firsts gamers played the games, and loved it, even 20 years after. :[ ]
@@DavidSmith-bv8mv some investor jumped of because / and a credit line of 1 billion busted. No money, no paychecks for the programmers, even if embracer has best of intentions.
Lok was originally created by Silicon knights,sometimes o think If the ip was restored tô the formers creators,the history Will be totally diferent what we experimented as soul reaver's continuattions
This is super interesting. LoK could have used the combat updates presented in this game, however the actual game/story doesnt sound that appealing. As you said, it got very dumbed down.
Vertical Slices are always made during preproduction. Alpha and Beta Builds come much later. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make at the 1:04:20 mark?
It's just saying that the dead sun vertical slice presentation that has been going around has been heavily edited to hide it's imperfections and is a lot more unstable than it would first appear.
Sometime life is good to you and gives you 1h30 documentary about your niche franchise cancelled project
Mocking elequence is a sign of insecurity.
Incredible that the Dead Sun project so brazenly sought to wipe away the lore and characters that make LoK as attractive a series as it is. They may as well have just made up their own world as more of a spiritual successor, but of course Square would want to capitalize on the name recognition while disrespecting the meticulous artistry that has made lifelong fans of so many, even after such a long hiatus.
Anyway, great video. Thank you for this. I learned a lot I never knew before!
Can't be a legacy of kain game without kain
We think LOK is garbage and we want to appeal to any audience except LOK fans.
Let's make a LOK sequel!!
- The Devs, probably
"the original games were too convoluted for new players to understand" then they proceed to create an even more convoluted story
I am so, so smugly happy that Dead Sun never got off the ground, for how hostile it was to everything that came before and the fans that loved the stuff. All that fucking bravado for nothing, goddamn that's scrumdiddly
Thanks for taking the time to put this video together, very well done and very interesting!
However after hearing that the devs had contempt for the previous games in the LOK series and showed them disrespect in the form of the play , that is enough to convince me it was a good thing dead sun was not released.
Honestly, even if they wanted to do a reboot and ignore previous elements, nothing turns me off than devs trying to antagonise their own fan base. Seems to be a trend with a lot of franchises these days so I’m glad this didn’t come out after hearing this.
(After hearing your description of the play, that was the way I interpreted it anyway)
At the end of the day if we eventually get a revival of some kind , there’s only one shot to do it right and make a great impression. Blessing in disguise that dead sun never came out imo.
Very well put. I used to advocate for this game until I heard the devs had planned to dispose of the original lore. I do however think it would have been a good stand alone title based in a distant future of Nosgoth with the Legacy of Kain moniker removed.
I always thought that the play at the start was meant to be a nod to the original lore of the series and just a way for them to sneak it in since Square Enix wanted ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FROM THE PREVIOUS GAMES INVOLVED (in their words…”without the baggage”) and they knew older fans would despise it without any sort of acknowledgment 🤷🏽♂️
If anything, I see it more as a “we know that you guys want THIS BUT MORE WELL DONE…but the Publisher doesn’t want it at all” and another capitulation that the devs had to keep coming to grips with. They all seemed far less spiteful of the original series and more towards Square Enix when it came to the feedback/broken promises they were being given
The more I learn about Dead Sun, the more I'm convinced we live in the better timeline. Better to leave the story where it was than give it to people who scorned it.
Definitely one of my favourite channels, really appreciate all that you do.
As long as single one of us stands - We Are Legion.
So glad this got canceled, because this was not LoK despite the title, and this was not the game fans wanted.
We want a conclusion to our unfinished story; we wanted the Defiance sequel The Dark Prophecy that was in the works to be completed and possibly finish the story.
Would it really make sense to release the end of a relatively niche unfinished story 20 years later? Unless they remake the entire series sans BO2 beforehand…
Well, thank you for all this. The deep dive really affirmed what we already knew: the genesis of boring, open, procedural generated tripe of EA style Creeds, Shadow of Mordor, and later GoW poisoned it. Along with the "liveservice" ideas, this chasing of market trends generated a bland, boring least common denominator game.
In short: "Money! Get us money! Get us those Call of Duty, dorrito and mtn dew bros in here! Make it eeeddggyyy!"
There are fragments of interesting ideas in there, but damn I'm kinda glad it didn't see the light of day.
Even if I enjoyed Nosgoth's later adding on to the Soul Reaver Lore and drew on bits of Blood Omen to do it.
Wow... So much information! No other video went this deep into the story and details! Amazing job as always.
How strange for them to throw the LoK lore out for being convulted only to make the most convulted storyline I've ever heard to replace it.
Anyway,
PATHS NEED TO BE REBUILT.
It's kind of Sam Barlow's style to produce horribly convoluted writing. As I said in another comment, Dead Sun just sounds like the worst fanfic ever.
@@forgot7en Not even fanfic as it doesn't even feature the original characters. It's just someone's half-baked """mature""" dark fantasy souls-lore ripoff with the LoK brand slapped on it for publicity
@@tamerofhorses2200 That's exactly what Konami did to Silent Hill after SH4
Bravo, team. You did an incredible job making this lost world more coherent. Would love to see more of this. Thank you for sharing!
This is the most cosmically epic video I've ever watched about this lost VG, thank you so much for giving it to us, we infinitely appreciate it. Although: I almost died of laughing with blooper at the end 🤣🤣🤣🤣 you guys are the best ❤️ greeting ad so much love from Cuban🇨🇺 fans of you and this beautiful franchise of ours ❤️❤️❤️
tbh, i'm glad that this game didn't came out, it is a LOK only in title imo.
Just like Blood Omen 2, only somehow faaaar worse.
@@forgot7en Blood Omen 2 at least worked with Kain's personality. The dialogue writing was still clever. It expanded upon the lore and made the Hylden out to be memorable villains instead of faceless puppeteers. This is nowhere near close enough to BO 2's quality, which was lacking to begin with.
@@tamerofhorses2200 Yeah I just said this is faaaar worse. Did you miss that part where I said this is faaaar worse? Because I thought I said this is faaaar worse.
When I first learned about this game being cancelled many years ago I was very sad. But the more and more I learned about it the more glad I was that it never saw the light of day. Maybe this could have been a new IP or something, but never a LOK related game.
The combat reminds me of Prototype game a lot, which I like.
I'm amazed how much information is out there about this game.
1:16:00 = prince of persia + assasin's creed
dead sun lives in the new assasin's creed
we may have not gotten the amazing dead sun but we got assasin's creed
1:17:17 ooooohhhh SHOTS FIRED!!!! 😆
While I can empathize with all the work Climax put in this game and am happy they pulled themselves out of despair, I am now fully glad this game was cancelled. Ever since hearing about Dead Sun, I had always been a little curious on what the game could have been, but after seeing this entire documentary full of stuff I had no idea about, especially the story direction, yeah, so glad it got canned.
Thank you for talking about my most beloved niche franchise. I cant get enough of it and you do a really great job on answering some of my lost questions on this series
Great video guys (another great one) but im glad this game didnt see the light of day ufff..... on the otherhand would love to se legacy of kain dark prophecy release because it would've been a continuation to Defiance and thats what most of us want, Would love to see you guys do a dedicated video on LoK: Dark Prophecy :) Keep up the good work guys
thanks as always for your time and effort. Aside what could have been with another title, its also interesting to see, how LOK has influenced so many "offspring" games like tomb raider entries or the asassins creed series.
I'm glad this didnt turn out a sequel to LOK. Ridiculous inconsistent story / background. If it is so difficult for a modern story writer to sequel the epic characters of Kain and Raziel, they could focus on side characters of the established franchise as well instead of just throwing pieces of a husk on their own games.
Vorador seemed stronlgy invested in his revenge for Janos being assassinated with his rampage on the circle of nine. His motives could at least fill a chapter or two. Or Janos insight on the human revolt against the antique vampires or the Hylden war with its consequent fall of the vampire race. So much to delve into.
But it would all need a modern writer to
1 know the lore
2 respect the lore
3 understand the fanbase
4 respect the fanbase
I love LOK as a dead franchise rather than see it ruined by another undead writer imitation...
If they screwed up Silent Hill, there's no way they would have nailed Legacy of Kain, especially when its story and lore is even more complex. I'm glad this got the axe. It looks like any other title with the same gameplay checklists of the time, when one of the biggest reasons Legacy of Kain fans loved the series was that it was so different from its contemporaries.
Awesome and in-depth video as always! Despite my distaste for Dead Sun there was some hard work done on the project, despite it being all based on very flawed concept and probably biggest example of showing middlefinger to your existing audience, at least until we had some of the game companies deciding their old games and fans are problematic based on political ideologies...
I first saw your name on a reddit comment you left in LoK sub about SR1 and the whole wrace thing. Then got this video recommended to me and had to double take to confirm it was the same name i saw on reddit lol
Good work man, great video!
Anytime I hear the words "Call of Duty" and "Inspiration" used together as a positive thing, I know it is the end of more lore-heavy story-based series, since they are dumbing down the story in favor of heavy action and no actual story to speak of, not to mention heavy multiplayer aspects.
Great work! Thankyou for this
Thank you so much for this! I was really excited to hear there'd be a video about anything and everything else that wasn't made public. I was totally devastated when I heard the project got cancelled, if only because I was starved of *anything* new to chew on. A shame they couldn't get the right funding and actually use the lore we care about.
Also great bloopers, thank you for including those haha!
Square: "Nah, it’s not gonna be well received, let’s not risk losing money and pissing off the fans."
Also Square: "Oh by the way, why not separately release that multiplayer mode that barely has any connection to the series? Surely fans will love it!"
It looks like a game that absolutely didn't understand what fans need, and yet at this point I can safely say that many of us would definitely take over having a bunch of nothing for almost 20 years (yeah, I'm not counting Nosgoth)
13:27 LOL what does that even mean? Soul Reaver takes place 1000+ years in the future in a Lovecraftian Apocalypse. We're gonna ignore that happened? I assume no one knew what the story actually was, and several of them also never cared. Personally, Dead Sun's ideas always sounded tacky and lame even out of context of the LoK series, and when they were repurposed into the Lord of the Rings universe, it was just as bad.
As much of a controversial game as Dead Sun was (and I'll be honest glad it wasn't released) it's still nice to see it getting some recognition as it was an interesting game to say the least.😅
If it wasn't linked to Legacy of Kain and was a game of itself (which yes means major changes but can be possible to either be heavily influenced or a spiritual successor like Deadhaus Sonata) then maybe Dead Sun would've been a great Vampire game, just didn't feel like it's predecessor games and certainly differed and didn't live up to the series which unpleased many LoK fans and with the development mess it went through.
(Side note I actually liked the look of Nosgoth before it shut down which is a shame but hey ho) Really good video Raina and as a sucker for cut content/cancelled games (Wished Dark Prophecy was made) I loved this video. Keep up with the amazing work, sorry for the long comment, thanks you, you are amazing👍
I don't know how you can say it "could've been a great Vampire game" when, at a glance, it is impossible to tell that the character is a vampire at all. He shares more in common with Raziel, who was a wraith in every game.
@@forgot7en Although yes I can see what you're going by, considering that it was a heavily Vampire themed game, not too mention that Gein/Asher was more leaning to the Vampire side than a Wraith (especially since Gein was an actual Vampire and you could still drink blood from what I seen which is like Dumah ability from Soul Reaver 1 since he could also go into the spectral realm as well as the soul sucking ability)
I think that's why me and a lot of other people say it as a Vampire Game but the term Fantasy Horror is more probably accurate to it.😅
(Edit-typo)
Great video! Glad it didn't make it in the LoK series though, even though it tries to imitate certain aspects of it, it does not have the caliber nor the heart.
It'd be nice to get a hold of this vertical slice so we could play through it ourselves to at least see everything.
Thank you for this, ive always been curious about seeing more of what could have been from dead Sun, glad to see more gameplay and learn more of the story, that being said I am ultimately glad this game was cancelled as I am sure discarding and ruining the established history would have potentially made my favorite series of all time one of my least favorites. One thing not mentioned in this video is how ashen is able to maintain the same bodily appearance unlike Raziel after his body is dissolved by his attempted suicide?
It's not really explicitly touched upon in the sources so i didn't highlight it in the video but going by previous lore and what we do know from dead sun it would seem that the manifestation of form by a wraith entity somewhat reflects their mental state.
The Saradin realm shifting vampires had spent years undergoing ritual torture to prepare themselves to shift between realms. For Raziel it was a much more sudden and unexpected shock tainted by betrayal and his ragged state reflected his fall from grace.
In short: They knew what they were getting into and could thus be mentally prepared for it in a way Raziel could not.
@@bazlmoon I considered this theory since you mentioned the vampires training themselves to be able to shift into spectral but still I'm not sure if it makes sense, Ashens mental state would likely be similar to Raziel with the loss of his wife and child along side his sudden death.
While we are discussing realm shifting there are vampires such as Melchiah in Sr1 that are able to pursue Raziel into the spectral realm. I've always wondered about this too, in the case of melchiah was his simply peering into spectral and could phase through it to inflict damage or was he full shifting back and forth? My theory has been the world was so corrupted at this point all dimensions both Demon and spectral were able to bleed through into the physical realm as its integrity crumbled and those who's souls were also ancient enough and beyond death enough would have access to peer into these other worlds having a part of their soul tainted by them. This is my theory. Dumah I believe can also peer into spectral but at least in his case we know he spent some centuries in it and was able to adapt to it.
what a effort, thank you for this amazing video!
Honestly, I was really excited about the idea of a timeline in which Raziel killed the vampires like in the original script, I didn't know that, and the contrast of op Kain returning with all his glorified eloquance, what a cool contrast that would be. Did anyone mention the Lok survey the cut content? I said that it was very loved by the fans and that having a time chamber in play it would be a waste not to explore it at least as replayability. Can you imagine, playing with the camera, that at a certain point the pillars explode and are replaced by the tentacles of the ancient god? Thanks for your work.
As a lifelong LoK fan, I admit I have mixed feelings about Dead Sun. The psudo-departure from the rest of LoK lore bugs me, but at the same time, I see the potential here. Something like a "what if" scenario, like if Kain accepted the sacrifice, what would have happened, that type of thing. The gameplay looks fun, especially the seamless transition between physical and spiritual realms, but that does sound like a technical barrier at the time unfortunately. Ultimately, I like that the game tried to do something different even if it failed in the end.
I had my doubts about this game but after watching this i`m actually glad it got canceled. One thing though. I had to play this video at 1.25 speed and it still felt sluggish at times :P
This video was very interesting and enlightening and just further cemented my view that the best thing that could have ever happened to the Legacy of Kain fandom was for Dead Sun to be cancelled. Dead Sun COULD have been an interesting and fun game if it had been completely removed from Legacy of Kain and wrote around its own original lore/story with no attachment to LoK whatsoever. For all the lore it tossed aside it mind as well should have been. The most ridiculous and infuriating notion of the modern age remakes of games/movies/etc is to completely "reimagine" a world and its lore, alternatively ignore said lore, or rewrite characters to be so far removed from who they were they are unrecognizable to the original fanbase. Clearly Dead Sun had this in spades. Games like Baldur's Gate 3 give me hope that some old IP's can be brought back and handled with care and respect if put into the hands of the right studio and developers (It helps if said studio is actually independent) but it's rare to see such a thing in the current game landscape where quarterly profit reports are the norm for game companies. From what I've seen, original fanbases are typically ignored at best or demonized at worst in the pursuit of profit.
As much as I adore the Legacy of Kain Series - it is by far one of my most favored games that is dear to my heart - and desperately want it to be brought back and done the justice it deserves... I'd prefer it stay dead. I'd rather remember it fondly for its unique Shakespearean dialogue delivered by top notch voice actors, its CONVULUTED story and the memorable eloquent characters. Better that than witness the likelihood that some other money driven company being the ones to try and revive Legacy of Kain, proclaim "hold my beer" to Dead Sun, and repeat the same mistakes as Dead Sun, but on steroids. Better a fond memory than seeing it bastardized into something that isn't even a hint of an echo of what once was.
The best thing to ever happened to the franchise, is that this BS was cancelled.
If they wanted a "wiped slate clean". Then why not create a new IP?
WTF are you doing taking over the name of an IP, if you are ultimately erasing everything that makes that IP.
It would have been way better to just create a new IP and put a legend saying "from the creators of Legacy of Kain".
And be done with it. Instead of this pile of BS.
"...way better to just create a new IP and put a legend saying: from the creators of Legacy of Kain."
Agreed. Would've helped safeguard the purity of the old franchise.
Dead Sun could've worked on it's own. Had some wild ideas. Just keep it away from the Kain series.
@@lucascoval828 by its time. Its clear it could have been a "shadows of Mordor" on its own. It could have been a good game! But it was forever doomed to be a shitty LoK game.
I think they believe that there won't be much interest in a brand new framchise and it is a big risk
It's far easier to tack it onto an already established and pipular framchise and piggyback on its success
But as generally happens in these cases, doing so creates an unwelcome addition to something popular and becomes like a milestone weighing it down
A Legacy of Kain game with no relation to Kain. This is a new peak of the gaming industry. Just make it a new franchise there is no reason to tarnish an existing one with all those kink elements and trashy dialog.
Alas poor Dead Sun. I knew it well.....well not really.
Seriously thank god this got cancelled. I don't know what it is with modern development in games, movies and other media where people who actively dislike something are put to work on it and you end up with a product that hates itself and it's own fans. What on earth is going on?
I was so hyped for dead sun... Love Legacy of Kain to death and despite dead sun not being really related to LOK, the game seemed awesome and full of really great ideas.
I still hope that one day, dead sun will be revived by some publisher although they would need to redo all graphics. It's a shame because the game seemed so far in development.
As always, great video. Call me crazy, but I prefer an incomplete series to a "new" vision of LOK that completely ignores what made the series great in the first place. There are fates worse than death for a video game series, and IMO this would have been the case. Let's hope the new owners of the IP learn something from this dumpster fire and show some respect for the lore and the fans...
This is kind of mostly off topic but this comment reminded me of an argument I got into in another comment section years ago about how Defiance's ending was the perfect ending to the series, whereas I wanted the story to actually be finished.
I absolutely agree, it's much better to leave the series dead and undisturbed than ruin it with a terrible spinoff.
Stellar analysis! I feel very relieved that this ended up getting cancelled - although it's got some neat ideas, it definitely doesn't feel like LoK. Some constructive criticism:
1. The intro was way too long - there were far too many preambles
2. Each chapter of the video begins as if it's an entirely new video. E.g. the part where you talk about the characters is treated like you didn't just talk about the entire story 30 seconds ago - it felt a bit like reading the info off of a wiki. Same goes for the rest of the chapters
Still, you've got a very good voice for narration and the level of detail in this documentary is absolutely amazing! I can't even begin to imagine how long it must have taken to put this whole thing together :D
Thanks for the kind words and the considered feedback. I'll keep these in mind moving forward. Funnily enough I've been writing for the LoK wiki for a long time so the style may have rubbed off on my presentations.
@@bazlmoon "Funnily enough I've been writing for the LoK wiki for a long time so the style may have rubbed off on my presentations."
Wow, really? Back in early high school (2008-2009), I spent quite a long time on a couple of Bulgarian LoK forums, translating content from various wikis :D
Who knows I might have translated something written by you :D
I'm sorry but the story here is even more convoluted than that of the original Lok and it is in addition simply god awful. I am supremely happy that it was cancelled.
Excellent video!
By the way, Amazing job with the video. it was quite informative on many many things.
As a stand alone ad on to the franchise I think Dead Sun had some very interesting gameplay & graphical features going for it.
Unbelievable video! I can’t imagine how the remakes will be. How true to the original it will be.
I'm so glad this game got cancelled. I've been a fan of LoK since BO1 and I guarantee you that I would not have played this.
Yeah, this project was rotting garbage.
Thank you so much for this. The time take to assemble this documentary.... thank you 🎉❤
I normally don’t feel relief at a game’s cancellation, but the blatant lack of respect and love for the franchise would have not only doomed this game at launch, but possibly any hope of renewed interest, such as the remasters around the corner.
The executives who thought the changes were a good idea shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a creative project ever again.
@@ramonterrell1897 amen.
It's like they intentionally went out of their way during development to crap on the series they were making a new entry for. Like why? Why would you want to do that as a project if you already don't like the existing story?
You think it was a pure ego thing?
@ oftentimes when another takes up the task of adapting or continuing a story, they think they can do better. We see this sometimes with Hollywood adaptations.
In this case, it could be such ego, or similar in the form of them not admitting to themselves that they had the chops to do the story justice. We’re not likely to ever know, but it’s fortunate this project did not make it, IMO.
Awesome many thanks Raina!😎👍
I've enjoyed a lot your compehensive review of the project, as I usually do with your other videos.
I'm a fan of LoK series, SR1 was one of the first videogames I'd ever played back then, and it's always a pleasure for me to replay them from time to time.
That said, if I can speak my mind, I do think that, despite this project actively seeking to distance itself from the established lore of the series, it shows a lot of potential, as you very well point at several times through the video. Some of its aspects look astonishing; I particularly enjoyed how they intended to make the spectral realm a much more integrated, real-time mechanic than in the previous installments; I agree with you upon what you say about some aspects of the new combat system, as I think it's a breath of fresh air in that regard. Even knowing, of course, that these elements deviate from what was previously established.
But as a graphic artist, probably the aspect I found absolutely the most heartbreaking is how they cancelled the project all of a sudden after all this work was made, for, as you mention, even if the actual direction the game was taking would've probably disappointed the existing fanbase profoundly, it seems that a lot of talent and hard work had been put upon it to try and make it happen. I think it would've been very interesting playing the game if it had been developed and finally released, even knowing that probably it wouldn't follow the established lore from the previous games; and even more knowing that they had intended the game to follow what was initially planned for SR1 but had to been cut off at the end.
Maybe as you say, it just wasn't the right game at the right time; but I think Climax had the potential and talent to develop an interesting proposal, one brimming with possibilities and ways to reinvent some of the elements from the original games.
Again, thanks for your video: it's an oustanding, grounded analysis, and I enjoyed it a lot!
So SquareEnix cancelled Dead Sun through fear of backlash from the community.. and yet released Nosgoth.. well that didn't do much for the franchise.. I never even bothered looking at it and I love LOK..
At least Nosgoth followed the story. I never got to play it since they cancelled it even though they hyping the hell out of it. Cancelling DS makes sense. But it would have been good as it's own game outside the franchise.
This seemed to have all of the drawbacks of an ubisoft open world game with the addition of pulling a swicheroo and nullifying the interesting lore and story of LoK. Kind of glad it was cancelled.
Glad this was cancelled. This is clearly not LOK. This could have been it's own game though.
Regardless... this presentation is probably more interesting than what the game would have been. Everything I had seen of the game itself looked and felt clunky and amateur. It lacked atmosphere and finesse.
I see the LOK series evolving into something like Bloodborne.... this is more like a batman or spiderman game
Dam dude ive tryed to watch this video 7 times after work i keep falling a sleep got some top tier asmr bro . 😂 awsome work ive finally finished it great vid.
Realistically the different time could have easily been explained by Raziel and Kain are still up to "no good" in the past. Maybe something that managed to restore some life to Nosgoth but not fully healing the land. I am sure if I managed to come up with this excuse so could they, if they wanted to honor the games before.
Also things such as gore for the sake of gore and lack of elocvent speech could also be explained. Gore actually doesn't even need to be. SR1 starts with Kain tearing of Raziel's wings, it is not like the original team shied away from these stuff. The brute speech can be explained by the proud clans are gone, all there is left is almost tribe-like groups.
you can easily whip up a hand wave excuse, but continuing the story and feeling of legacy of kain in a way that feels right requires love and extreme writing talent. something lacking in what i saw here
There are ways and excuses that can be used to create a story on Nosgoth without meddling with the events of the main story.
Something that would still require massive efforts, knowledge and talent.
But what its shown on this video (great job by the author) is complete and utter garbage done by clueless people who were cannibalizing the fame of an IP.
Legacy of Kinky Vampire Sex: The Game
As someone who has been a longtime fan of the franchise from a distance, I would have been very keen to see how this all worked out. I like the ideas presented and it’s easy to find enjoyment in a reverse talion aka shadow of Mordor situation. People complain that there is much less theatrics at play and who knows, maybe that stays that way, but the tone is still there, they just aren’t using fancy words to describe it, which is an aspect I loved sure, but it doesn’t mean that if kain or raziel where to show up that they will speak the same as the new protagonist. And besides we don’t know the narrative. It might have lead up to some very intense and dramatic events if they had the right writers.
It's interesting to compare indeed with Shadow of Mordor situation...as both the Dead Sun and Shadow of Mordor felt like kind of different....takes on their respective franchises :) (and one can easily say that in terms of writing and epicness Legacy of Kain is like Lord of the Rings of video games :)) but also both showing certain worrying symptoms....of certain disrespect for their properties and wild fanfctiony variation of it...Dead Sun writing seems...unrefined in a way that is just mimicking the 'cool dark edgy' style that Shadow of Mordor had towards the Lord of the Rings world and story going wildly off rails when it comes to lore and doing crazy stuff. In terms of superficial similarities...both Shadow of Mordor and Dead Sun even have that familiar feel in terms of gameplay, the more complex themes of story though being sidelined for the cheaper rule of cool, dumbing down. The certain concepts of Legacy of Kain world being twisted in the Dead Sun just like many of the aspects of Lotr lore being twisted in the SoM games :). Lord of the Rings and relation to Shadow of Mordor is a whole complex issue but it ultimately is similar to how Dead Sun approached the Legacy of Kain franchise...both kind of...try to modernize their premises, their worlds trying to make them 'new and exciting' but also somewhat losing the heart and essence of the original. Of course all of those might have been just impressions based on what little we have seen....though the 'lore' of LoK didn't seem to be in the center of attention in a way that SoM treated Tolkien's lore :). Talion example and his state of being possessed by spirit of an elf-lord, and the similarity with the protagonist of Dead Sun a spirit of vampire but it's a man that is in vampire body really :) (I wonder how the 'vampire wraiths' would feature into that...the Soul Reaver dealt with the spirits of vampires that were too long in Spectral). Who knows what fully might have been but it doesn't stop the thought that both SoM and Dead Sun seem like outliers to their respective franchises.
I like the ideas presented here as well since the Saradin could very easily be explained as the descendants of Raziel’s clan of vampires, with Gein possibly being the “modern version of Kain w/ a twist of Raziel”.
It plays into the whole “Vampire Evolution” plot element that was presented in the first Soul Reaver along with the Human/Vampire Hybrid (Saul) meant to be the main antagonist of the game 🤔
It’s implied to have been MILLENIA since the events of Soul Reaver 1 (and by extension everything before & afterwards) which themselves take place long after the events of Blood Omen 1 + 2, so there’s so much they can establish in this “future timeline” that they could very easily build backwards from in a way similar to games like NieR/NieR Automata/Drakengard 1 and Drakengard 3 since it’s all one timeline with a definite Beginning & Ending (IF you can parse it yourself…)
What had me the most interested here is the idea of Kain still possibly existing (or how they explain his passing) either as the (possible) “Vampire JFK” that would be revealed to have “sired” Saul to begin with and it being possible thanks to his Vampire Evolution manifesting after 10s of 1000s of Years…or in the same way he did Biblically: cursed into walking Nosgoth eternally for the most grave of Sin in the eyes of the Wheel of Fate…cheating it and “making the coin land on its side”
There’s so many amazing places they could’ve taken the franchise (and possibly did but never got it out) that I feel like Dead Sun was meant to be the start of a new Trilogy/Quadrilogy meant to work backwards & forwards much like SR into Blood Omen 2 & Soul Reaver 2 did into their own version of Defiance where we get definitive answers on why the Younger BO2 Kain was ended by his Defiance/Dark Prophecy Older counterpart and/or how Kain was finally able to get Raziel to sound the Silent Cathedral in one of the “go-arounds” across the timelines. However…Square-Enix themselves were too keen on disregarding the lore and over time probably felt it was “too complex” and cancelled it since they didn’t want a repeat of what happened to franchises like Deus Ex (DeX2IW being an example), Tomb Raider (AoD), or even the also then-in-development Final Fantasy Versus XIII (an EXTREMELY tragic story of development hell and cancellation)…so they didn’t even bother.
This is why I wish we could at least get the leaks for what would’ve ultimately been the final story treatments & drafts/scripts for some sort of closure
man i'm glad this didn't see the light of day
You can say that again. The obsession of excessive swearing and bare titties and other teenage garbage was just horrible and I hated pretty much every mainstream game from that era. I'm glad Legacy of Kain was spared that disgusting taint. I'm equally glad that no LOK games came out in the last few years, or Kain would've been secretly an african woman who identifies as a man.
Yeah, it's basically the same story we hear over and over and over and still holds true and it's the one lesson the gaming industry still has yet to internalize. When the executive suite gets involved, your game is going to suck. Because they're not driven by making good games, they're driven by "number go up," and they think the key to that is just to chase trends and "make it like this other game because this game makes money so if we make it like this game we'll make the same money." The gaming industry is worse than Hollywood in that respect.
Also, Dead Sun was just ugly. I mean everything about it was god awful ugly.
GIGACHAD VIDEO LIKE ALWAYS.
Can't imagine the time behind to collect all this info and edit the video with you as narrator.
By the way, since I'm Italian, i think my english is fairly good but even with subtitles on, some parts i struggled to understand the correct meaning, it's not about the british accent but more for the "Refine Language" which sometimes seems like to hear a dialogue of the reach of Soul Reaver.
Anyway speaking about Dead Sun, damn fans of Legacy of Kain are so thirsty we don't have a game since ages, i can't wait for any news which probably in the years (i imagine) will come... i can't wait for a Remake or a New IP with the creators of Legacy or Blood Omen franchise.
Also didn't know all this story between Climax, Eidos, Crystal Dynamics and Square Enix so complicated!!!
Great video i love learning about the development history of both canceld and released games
i actually got my intrest in Lok because of Dead Sun after i watched Matt Macmuscles Wha Happun epsiode on it
i had heard of the franschice because i had watched Mandaloregamings review of Blood Omen but didnt know much beyond that
my interest in the franschice grew as i started learning more about the lore even though i have never played the games because i was way too young when they where comming out.
Even though DeadSun didnt share many themes with the orignal games i still think it could have been a cool game in general the visuals athmosphere and the gameplay looks really apealing to me personally wich is why im disapointed it got canned
here is hoping Embracer Group actually does something with the ip
imagine how cool a new Lok game could look like in an engine like Unreal Engine 5
Wow...they really didn't understand LOK did they? Like theme and storyline wise.
So this is the experience of a vertical slice of cheese, interesting. Really awesome video, not too fond of the game as a part of LoK, but a stand-alone would be an interesting play for sure.
Goddamn am I sooooo glad Square sold off their western developers and their IP's because they literally have no clue about those type of genres and it's best they stick to what they do best, JRPG's.
They can hardly do that even and this is coming from me as a fan of FF series, the good ones atleast. I too will second the view that these IPs are freed from the incompetent shackles of Squenix. And am I the only one that is fed up with the countless TombRaider games they released as so many were just slightly above average at best, yet they kept chugging them out in an age were people really want top-tier story, lore and character voice work and they had the IP of all IPs for that ( LOK ) and decided nah, vampires aren't cool, lets make a online multi-player thingy instead! They also messed up another great in Deus Ex because of greed despite a great first entry and Hitman series because of the awesome and innovative concept of less is more (sarcasm ) release of chunks of a full game over the course of a year and wonder why it didn't do well!
Kain needs his story finished. They wasted so much time on Dead Sun when they could have finished the actual tale. :/
@@Fulgore-dy8qr how did he kill himself??
@@Fulgore-dy8qr who sacrificies herself was raziel not kain
I'm quite happy this game was never released.
It's a great look at the particulars, gave me a lot of information I didn't have before...
Though, I really have to wonder if it (at least the narration) doesn't suffer from an overly-optimistic view of the gaming industry in general- which really has a long and storied history of a reach that desperately exceeds its grasp.
In order to "avoid future mistakes" it's rarely enough simply to point them out to an industry that seems hell-bent on copypasta'ing bad systemic decision-making. Gaming companies don't so much learn history to avoid repeating it as they learn it to more closely emulate it.
...and then guilelessly wondering why all their efforts get Hindenberg-style send-offs.
hope a demo leaks so everyone can play
Woooooooooooo, let's make this video greeeaaat
Karma got them after all. By 2014 to 2015, without any official announcement, Climax was closed due to financial issues.
They assisted development of Returnal in 2021...
@@bazlmoon they brought coffee for the Sony devs all Climax do is "we can do it cheaper" and ruin whatever they touch they should be gone by now
Also Denis Dydack with Blood Omen LOK had Aleister Crowleys Aeon of Horus at the start of the game.
There is a Magical operation of maximum importance; the Initiation of a New Aeon. When it becomes necessary to utter a Word, the whole Planet must be bathed in blood...
I see many comments saying they're glad it's cancelled as it doesn't have the theatrical dialogue of the earlier games.
I think it had potential. :)
It could have been a spinoff in a different timeline and while the gameplay by today's standard looks formulaic (Arkham/Protoype combat and traversing), it could have been an interesting game, provided you said "ok it's not a LoK sequel, it's a spinoff", I suppose.
50:02 I kept seeing the Arkham games or Shadow of Mordor spoken in this video, but I honestly believe the gameplay to Dead Sun resembles Prince of Persia 2008 a lot more than anything else......
1:10:49 F#@%3n B#!! $#!t I would have preferred this over Nosgoth. but whatever, the past is the past.
@@ewwwt Never say never. I never thought prince of Persia would return but here we are with lost crown
In fact, unlike many, it doesn't seem like a bad game to me, and seeing as they handled that it's an alternate world, I feel like I could have enjoyed it.
Just like the Devil may Cry series had a wild ride D.M.C., which reminds me a lot of this, as it was more down to earth, vulgar, and violent in its depiction. And I liked that one too, unlike many fans.
i really would felt uneasy if this Game made it to the Public franchise
Even though it cancelled the old lore, I would have liked to see another vampire game in the age of Lords of Shadow.
What is the deal with studios hating the franchises they suppose to reboot? Climax hating Lok, Crystal Dynamics allegedly despising classic Tomb Raider games... It seems like industry is full of worst kind of nerds
They have their own vision of the game.
Most likely wanted to make their own project, but ended up with the reboot.
Don't forget what Capcom tried to do with Devil May Cry. Studio and game company heads all want one thing: to make money. They think that by changing stories to attract new fans will make games more successful but they forget about their core fanbase. By doing that, what and who made the IP popular goes away and oftentimes, the new game doesn't reach the heights that the original games did and the whole series goes away.
The people who have been hired into the industry in the past 10 years are not the same type of people who gave the impetus to the gaming industry 20-30 years ago. Most of the people writing and conceptualising games now are activists and status-hungry or spiteful paper-pushers who couldnt give two shits whether a game flew or crashed and burnt. In fact, most of them see the gaming hobby as "toxic" so they want to actively deconstruct it like they do with every other industry (see movies, literature, academia etc.)
@@tamerofhorses2200 Ok, very cool, but how does that relate with Dead Sun?
@@DiggoryEuthymiusLook up what @Zyll666 said
Masterful 👏
As a 10 year old kid when i started playing this series, i have to question the intelligence of a writer when they call it convoluted(or worse). Especially considering it was made by Amy Hennig, someone who i don't believe has made anything less than wildly successful game stories, and i dont think she's been negative towards her early works either.
While the comparison was made to Shadow of Mordor, which plotwise it is weirdly similar to from a set up point, what I'm getting from this is DmC. The sense where they are embarrassed to be making a sequel/reboot to their respective series, so they have to make it clear that original series was incredibly stupid. Surely that will win people over to their clearly superior edgy work.
I was hoping that game would come out I remember hearing about it back then, then it cancelled and was super sad. Me and my older brother played LOK Defiance as kids. I'm hoping we get a new one someday.
12:16
I'm going to go ahead and say that this is most likely accurate. I looked up this game and it shows the "project lead" is a guy named Sam Barlow. This same Sam Barlow was the writer of Silent Hill: Shattered Memories and a while back he gave an interview talking about a lot of the behind the scenes stuff that went on with the game and how the original version was changed. He then went on to state his original intention was to "fix Silent Hill 3" and at numerous points in the interview he took jabs at the game and it's story. His personality and vibe just came off as pompous and arrogant enough to make the alleged statements here. The guy is a really talented writer but comes off as a bit up his own a**
Ahh so if that’s true it’ the most likely version of events
love you !
Thank you for the video in lenght !
I'm pissed at people not respecting the basic material who gaves the name of the franchise. (Witcher's tv series, the movie "I am a legend", etc. etc. etc.).
If you want to do something else, go do something else. Don't use the names !
Dead Sun might have been an interesting game, by itself.
But that's not really a Lok or SR game.
As "Nosgoth" was a joke...
Maybe there is something to do in a kind of strategic/mmorpg/beat'em'all when Kain has his general vampires, and starts to conquer the world.
There might be places when you can do something a bit different from the firsts games. But that need to be done smartly... and remembering why the firsts gamers played the games, and loved it, even 20 years after. :[ ]
Can’t wait 🎉🎉
I really hope a build of this game leaks someday. I’d love to be able to eventually play it on an emulator one day!
We're never getting LOK back. Embracer is making all kinds of cuts because a 1 billion dollar deal fell through 😢
What do you mean if you don't mind saying? What's this billion dollar deal and consequences from that? Thanks.
@@DavidSmith-bv8mv some investor jumped of because / and a credit line of 1 billion busted. No money, no paychecks for the programmers, even if embracer has best of intentions.
Lok was originally created by Silicon knights,sometimes o think If the ip was restored tô the formers creators,the history Will be totally diferent what we experimented as soul reaver's continuattions
You can see it in DeadHaus Sonata in a way.
LoK would've remained more of a Gothic Medieval fantasy rather than the Tomb Raider esque aesthetic we saw it adopting
This is super interesting. LoK could have used the combat updates presented in this game, however the actual game/story doesnt sound that appealing. As you said, it got very dumbed down.
Dead Sun lost me when those vampire hunters said the F bomb. Showed the writers completely lost the script.
They are bandits and r999ists, what did you expect? In their case its completely justified
Same here. This series is known for its eloquent writing and dialog, and Dead Sun just wasn't LoK
@@Brandelwyn
Works if it was another IP.
@lucascoval828 idk, that'd be fine with me and I was a lok fan since I was 8
Vertical Slices are always made during preproduction. Alpha and Beta Builds come much later. So I'm not sure what point you're trying to make at the 1:04:20 mark?
It's just saying that the dead sun vertical slice presentation that has been going around has been heavily edited to hide it's imperfections and is a lot more unstable than it would first appear.
I'm looking forward to seeing this.