@@WozViral barely silver Sakura player here (I got to silver playing balrog but I dropped when switching) can you actually teach me how to play against? Like no joke wanna hangout someday and show me what to do? I can play against silver players and be decent but hotdamn then Ken's and ryus give me a hemorrhage. My friend who's gold urine gives me less trouble than those H Tatsu kens honestly
@@mrblooper1994 I'm only super silver myself so I still have issues it's started to get better though. I started out with Sakura before swapping to Akira I still play her a fair bit though I have a lot of matches on my channel for both of them.
The real challenge will be making 'Why You HATE Fighting Shotos' Since frankly, one never hates a shoto. They usually hate the player playing the Shoto.
@@its_sisha_not_chair505 I dislike Ky. Ride the lightning has I framed my moves when I did Bridget standing heavy, the move went through him, was coming back, super I frames I died.
Nah, if a shoto is really good then I kinda hate fighting them, it's like they have no weaknesses to exploit and you see them everywhere. Lucario in Pokken is the main one for me since that's the game I play semi-competitively, he's honest but really annoying due to how solid all of his buttons are, and the fact that he's _everywhere._ Like a 3rd of europe play him, not even exaggerating.
1)Why you hate fighting Grapplers 2)Why you hate fighting Zoners 3)Why you hate fighting puppet characters 4)Why you hate fighting rush down 5)Why you hatin' dawg
I mean, if you don't want to play against a cast of characters that each have their dishonest gimmick; you probably shouldn't be playing fighting games.
People hate the risk/reward of fighting a rushdown characters. Like you stated, they're reward on hit is waaay higher than they're risk on block (if any). They can also usually outbox you and have tools to get into boxing range. If you ever wanna feel like you're good at a game just play a low execution rushdown character.
Sort of depends on the level at which you play the game as high level players have a solid idea of how to deal with the bullshit a lot of Rushdown players have with things like option selects and good reads/guessing while others are just very good at either keeping you at out of your preferred range or maximizing their own damage once you do get hit since Rushdown has a bit of a risk to it.
@@javianbrown8627 You're describing Top level (the "Cream-of-the-Crop). That's the elite of the elite players that you see in every Top 8 of a major. They're such outliers that it's almost not even important to include them when considering cheapness. They will adapt and win regardless. I've been in the "high level" ranks of Tekken and play friends that are the same (TGP/TGO) on PC, but the gap between us and Pros like Knee are laughable.
@@derrickrobinson7269 I'm not necessarily referring to the top 1% of a game's playerbase but rather my point was that the level of play can determine what is generally considered difficult. A lot of players at lower levels struggle to get in on zoners and characters with large disjointed hitboxes for example or characters that are very gimmicky more so than Rushdown as at this level people aren't as patient and don't know when they can/should move. I remember it took me a while to learn how to fight Ram in Guilty gear for example while fighting the typical Gio was easier despite her fast dash and solid moves. I also remember people struggling to get in on my Jade in Mortal Kombat until I got to a higher level.
The rant about dedicated rushdown player's mentality was so cathartic. So many just refuse to even try to play the game any way that isn't their flowchart, and it almost makes learning their one trick and beating them less fun because of it. And god forbid they actually do know how to block and adapt. Those players are demons, waiting to steal your soul with their sick combo and absurd mixup, biding their time as you flail, desperately trying to make them crack before it's too late and it's their turn again.
I love playing as a rush-down character! I mindlessly rush into 75% of my fights. This in turn goes to show why I lose a lot of my fights, but at least I’m going down enjoying the match.
Honestly, the biggest reason I hate rushdown is because that's all that seems to be acceptable anymore. Grapplers are getting worse. Zoners are getting worse. Rushdown keeps getting more tools.
Grapplers have always been generally worse. And tbh we've seen more interesting grapplers as time had gone by across the genre. They've gotten more personality and creativity and in recent games have started to stray away from the Big + Slow steretype. Zonera have actually always gotten the most tools because zoning isn't just projectile based, and people seem to not get that, on top of the fact that Zoners by default have some of the most unique kits. Theyre always a subversion of whatever the games core mechanics are. They end up being the most unique. I'd argue rushdown is the least hated. And that's only because people are generic brain af and will praise the "come fight me" and "stop running like a bitch" or "why do you so much damage?" sentiments... However rushdown is just as equally if not the MOST hated when it happens TO them. Fighting games players hate everything. 😅 Not trying to shit on your opinion, but what I'm saying is facts. 💯 It doesn't matter what you play. There's a side or group of players and fans that will hate in your character pick, and that goes beyond archetypes.
For every rushdown character that obliterates a zoner, theres a zoner who absolutely disrespected the shit out of a grappler and a grappler who grappled into oblivion a shoto. Nobody is free of sin. Except shotos i think
@D Hayris 50/50s are almost integral to mixups and reliable setplay is a sign of a solid strategy. I'm not condescending. I'm genuinely posing the question. You want games that lack mixups and reliable setplay? Just poking and confirming into single layered rewards that reset back to nuetral.
The whole reason I kept playing zoners: it felt like I could get better with them faster since the players of those characters actually used their tools to overcome obstacles rather than complain about a -4 button that they can’t DP out of
As a grappler main, I accept that mixing people is fun, but (and hear me out) seeing someones trt to mix you up and just end up getting grabbed because of a gap I was waiting patienly is, IN MY OPINION, more fun
I’ve been adoring Guilty Gear Strive for a good minute, but several of my most hated characters have been rushdowns who can 1. Do some bullshit that launches their body towards me at Mach 1, and 2. Loop the same combo against my block and ask that I identify the 4 frame window in which I can counter. Oddly enough, fighting characters like Potemkin, Faust, and even some zoners like Asuka R have been the most fun I’ve had in this game, while rushdowns like Sol Badguy, Giovanna, and Baiken have made me give that uninstall button a second thought.
I'm a person that loves to play zoners/grapplers all the time. Just getting into rushdown characters recently. I cannot tell you how many times I've asked "Wait? What do you mean that was a safe attack? What do you mean I can keep on attacking? I'm not going to get punished for this!?". Makes me feel like I'm cheating, and some of my friends are getting annoyed that they suddenly aren't finding opportunities to play the game anymore =p
I dont mind fighting against rushdown characters i have some respect for them as performing combos on block and keeping the opponent in block stun for a long time is hard af, BUT what i hate fighting against the most is rushdowns that have CROSS UPS as part of their game plan, sure every character can technically do cross ups but im talking about teleports and dashes that get you behind the opponent in an instant such as Millia Rage, those are the goddamn devil and i hate it
I don’t think it’s unfair on millia. she still has to earn her true crossups with 2d, septem, or rc and it comes at the price of her bad health, damage, and blockstring pressure
This was excellent. I think that it needs to be more widely considered that rushdown tends to be easier, at a lower/intermediate level, because 1: they tend to be pretty privileged characters, since they are cool, and more people think they're fun, so devs tend to be more comfortable letting them be good. 2: If you play the character correctly, and don't overextend, often you don't *have* to do anything commital, a luxury other archetypes don't always have. 3: you're far less likely to need to provide answers to problems, just be the one presenting the problems. In a real time game, providing effective answers while dealing with the mental stack is extremely difficult. Providing said problems can often boil down to the dreaded "flowchart." Full disclosure, there's a lot of bias from me here, I play a lot of neutral bullies and zoners, both of which often have a hard time dealing with 1 or more of the various flavors of rushdown you described.
I do agree that the archetype of rushdown isn't difficult. However, it's partially which rushdown you're talking about. A character like Sol is super simple. But someone like C. Viper is one of the most technical characters in Street Fighter IV.
And this is why I think ssbm fox is the character that represents the rushdown archetype best. He’s a character that objectively overpowers every other, but he lives and dies off of YOUR ability to be incredibly good at him in a technical sense. He has a massive weakness in his combo-ability which makes him reliant on winning in the situations where the odds are stacked heavily in his favor.
I don't like rushdown because while playing them it's super automated AF and grossly repetitive while being highly rewarding for little to nothing. Meanwhile fighting rushdown is unfun because it's all at their pace (they set it), in plenty of bad examples just means playing defense most of the time vs players that act pretty toxic about losing to others that need to have significantly better defensive play and actually think about how to attack. And the irony that most of them get mad about zoners not being "punished for push button" when that's was typically is the most common trait of playing a rushdown is grossly safe offense. Or getting pissy they get punished hard by someone that reads 3+ mixups right for maybe 1/2 or 1/3 the HP. Mixup character are designed for people that aren't great to safely hit the same 2 or 3 combos but they make you hold block most of the time and it's boring overall. I don't think it's bullshit. Plenty of rushdowns are good and bad depending on the game and balance. But playing a rushdown we'll just takes knowing your moves most the time vs learning other character requiring you to learn the matchups on top of that for the same performance.
I'd say having the defining characteristics of rushdown being preferring close range and strong pressure options is strange because that also seems to include grapplers. I'd say the key characteristic of rushdown needs to be their speed/movement options that let then cut through neutral the way a grappler can't. Since characters like sol/leo/slayer lose the high movent needed to "rush" in exchange for higher health and big damage, but don't have the longer limbs and armor of grapplers, I'd say they're a completely separate archetype of brawler. Slayer is more a pire brawler while sol has some fast neutral skip tools (albeit very linear/commital) that give him more of a rushdown element.
Grapplers usually don't have a lot of pressure. Often most of their pressure is short and high risk. That's why grapplers are usually low tier AF. If they actually had pressure they would flat out actually counter rushdown really hard.
I agree with the fact they need more breakdown because I don't mind pixie/set play characters but brawlers are the most aggravating characters in basically every fighting game to me.
Sol is a strike throw Rushdown type character while Millia is a mixup based one. And then there’s order sol who’s something entirely unique and chipp is a pixie character
Rushdown is the real glue eating playstyle, the real smooth brain archetype, the real whippit pounding characters , the real gorillas. You allways have the option to not get grabbed, millia or crackhead is going to be in there. You dont get a say
What so many people realize is that EVERY archetype has their glue eating. Rushdowns, Grapplers AND Zoners can all be braindead if given the chance. No onenis safe from gule eating!
The problem isn't that rushdown is inherently braindead. It's that modern games have gradually leaned so far into that kind of mentality that it feels frustrating for everyone else. I get that most people don't like turtling and keepaway, but if these aren't decently strong options the only stable strategy is rushdown. This is what bothers me. You'd probably be surprised if I told you command grabs are a defensive option, because they arguably aren't anymore. Rushdown usually doesn't have any hard counters, and the only way to balance this is by designing every other character with a "if you can't beat em, join em" mentality. (See DBFZ) I don't hate fighting Rushdown in games with a wider variety of viable gameplans, it's just that that's not something I can say about most modern games.
As someone who likes to play zoning, with fireballs more than limbs, any projectile on any character has my interest. The way it plays against any other projectile, or against a neutral, or how it can be avoided by a kit is very interesting to me... Arcing projectiles from item characters, traps, fireballs of different speeds, fireballs in general, fireballs with gimmicks...they all have my interest and my goodness I love them all! Faust's bag bomb, Anji's butterfly birdy, I-No's note...the minions... I don't even play Guilty Gear, but I know how I would play it. What I *do* play is Fantasy Strike though...and I know my favorite archetype there.
I believe the rushdown match up goes hand in hand with your defense skills. Most rushdown matchups consist of a lot of pop quizes being thrown at your face at really high speed. Of course, players and character matchups impact a whole lot in it, but once you have an active defense and the opponent won't catch you sleeping on any fake stuff they might try to extend their strings, the rushdown matchup becomes a whole lot more manageable.
Finally, I didn't expect that video to come up this early or at all I expected to make a "why you hate zoners" before Now let's hope the next guilty gear will be less like strike and more like+r because strive is made for people who complain about everything that isn't rushdown
Not sure how hot this take is anymore but yes rushdown is insanely easy only limited by how long you want to stay in the lab. The real difficulty in these games is, despite how hated, projectile zoners since in many cases they are still playing neutral when chucking projectiles at you which optimally for them is at a reactable distance. The exception being things like Vatista 235 Series form BBTAG (Under night inbirth rep) or severely overwhelming ones like Morgan form one of the Marvel vs Capcom games when the entire screen may as well be on big projectile from my understanding of it. I would explain the take in detail but this comment is already enough of a text wall as it is so leave it here.
Zoner player both projectile and normal based more so the latter, because hitting the medium button and covering half the screen with my big ass sword or object is easy, so I can spend my time learning how to block mix as I hit you with the 6th consecutive 2 hit combo. In that mindset yes rushdown is toxic a character that can jump the entire screen in the time it takes me to throw a fire ball is annoying compounded by the fact that they tend to not only have more health than me but also do infinitely more damage per interaction is, when it is good, not very engaging. And it becomes the most popular play pattern because people think “fighting” game so zoners are less intuitive and grapplers feel clunky even with there far wider margin for error. (Perspective of a BBTAG, Type Lumina, Gran Blue Fantasy player). Can’t wait for my turn to get shit on even if it is likely things I have heard at nasuem. And yes, I play Smash and Rushdown is optimally suited to the time out win con in that game. Key point the blue hedgehog. But it is more fun to run at people and you know kill them yourself.
If you don’t like fighting rush down characters, you should see dragonball fighterz. Almost the entire cast is a rush down character and even the zoners and grapplers are rush down characters. Hell, there is a designated button to rush down your opponent.
Bro, your attitude and tone is legit why i subscribed. Your confidence, and willing to backtrack (Guilty Gear Theme revisits) shows serious ingegrity. Keep it up homie 🎉
As a grappler, Rushdown is fun. And I don’t blame Rushdown players for complaining! They’re tools often get toned down so they don’t become too strong. And if they become op even once they get their legs broken.
As a potemkin main, this video was CATHARTIC. Like most of my matches are: "HOLY SHIT IM SO FUCKING SICK OF YOU CHIPP GET OUT OF MY FUCKING FA-" (632146 + P).
@@ethanhinton4549 yeah but the chipp's pain is instant. Just one simple breaking of the spine is all it takes, meanwhile i have to get my cock and balls tortured for the entire match.
HOLY FUCK, YOU NAILED PRETTY MUCH MY EXACT THOUGHTS! Whate everyone constantly forgets is that Grapplers, Zoners, and Rushdowns are like the Triforce of archetypes. These three need to coexist in order to have a balanced roster. They all have strengths and weaknesses that play off of each other. But in recent years, people keeping thinking that rushdowns are the ONLY archetype that matters, and so they complain about it! And then the devs listen, and only make Rushdown charatcers! There's an overpopulation problem! There's too many fucking RUSHDOWNS! Zoners and Grapplers are both archetypes with very nuanced gameplay of you just give them some time, but nooooo! These gorrilas gotta fucking shlap their meat together and breed even MORE Rushdowns like fucking rats! There's so much untapped potential for the other Archetypes, but no one seems to fucking listen anymore!
I hate playing against shotos. I guess the best way to put it is that shotos are the archetype with the strongest ability to make their opponent play their game and they win not by enforcing a specific gameplay but by using their well rounded kits to prevent their opponet from getting any advantage. Shotos are like that annoying kid during recess that won't stop moving when they are tagged in a game of freeze tag.
"Also Zoners, you're fucking next" YES! YES!!!! YESSSSSSSSSS!!! As a filthy Zoner myself, I am so excited to get the roasting my ass *deserves*, I'm so glad this is turning into a series!
I feel like rushdowns are so hated because fighting them requires a lot of defensive play once they’re in, and I feel like earlier fighting games did not have very elaborate or fun defensive options. It is much more tolerable now that I’m playing strive, which has a lot of good defensive options, both universal and character specific
I am a rush-down since the first contact with a fighting game. I would pick them unconsciously even before I knew what a DR is. I must admit that it amuses me to see when my buddy loses patience with every beating I give him lol. That's why I prefer presence over online play, although I enjoy everything equally, even when I get beaten.
Got to disagree on what's the most fun to do in Fighting games. Putting the fear of god in your non-believing foe before breaking their back with a Grappler is easily the most fun I have playing them.
4:50 I guessed all of this correctly, lol. But I also know how Baiken works, so... I probably would have struggled to block the crossup in an actual match, though. Probably would have accidentally input a jump and got hit even though I guessed right. That's what makes rushdown scary. The speed. Maybe you can guess or react to them, but can you execute your response as fast as they can run you over? Chipp is on his fifth coke binge of the day, he's not having problems keeping up.
Can you do a video on 'big spacing' archetypes? Some examples are T7 Gigas, MKX Kotal Khan, Melee Ganondorf, DNF Crusader. Aka big characters with big normals that hit hard but are generally slow. These are the characters im drawn too.
When you do the Zoner video, you gotta pull up some MK9 Freddy or Kenshi, or MKX Hish Qu Ten Predator, Pyro Tanya, Kenshi, or Summoner Quan. Injustice also has some good ones. Zod in 1, Deadshot in 2, especially
As a rushdown player, in defense of all of us Rushdowns, at the very least you can never say that we are running away/stalling/not interacting. We will always make sure that the game is being played because moving forward is the universal gameplan. Zoners on the other hand have been social distancing far before Covid
I feel so validated when GekkoSquirrell implied my main Axl take some skill and Rushdown players are monkeys. Thanks Gekko for inflating my ego, I appreciate it
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When you stop a Ken players flowchart you can see their brain short circuit in real time it's very satisfying.
Literally me pulling up online wishing to face a Ken and just watching him and holding back after hitting a knockdown on him (he'll press DP EX)
By flowchart do you mean heavy tatsu and dp on wakeup?
@@WozViral barely silver Sakura player here (I got to silver playing balrog but I dropped when switching) can you actually teach me how to play against? Like no joke wanna hangout someday and show me what to do? I can play against silver players and be decent but hotdamn then Ken's and ryus give me a hemorrhage. My friend who's gold urine gives me less trouble than those H Tatsu kens honestly
@@mrblooper1994 I'm only super silver myself so I still have issues it's started to get better though. I started out with Sakura before swapping to Akira I still play her a fair bit though I have a lot of matches on my channel for both of them.
@@mrblooper1994 that is the worst place to have a typo 💀
Chaotic Gekko is the hero we didnt know we needed
I am rushdown, so obviously I hate fighting people who fight like me.
The Rush down?
You got the rushdown and the rushed and downed or just rushdowned
I have a friend who hates fighting rushdown and yet uses Axl Low exclusively as a rushdown character
The real challenge will be making 'Why You HATE Fighting Shotos'
Since frankly, one never hates a shoto. They usually hate the player playing the Shoto.
Literally the most honest type of character, ive never seen someone (who isnt an idiot) being salty about a shoto. Imagine like, bitching about Ryu
@@its_sisha_not_chair505 I dislike Ky. Ride the lightning has I framed my moves when I did Bridget standing heavy, the move went through him, was coming back, super I frames I died.
Ryu bad
@@its_sisha_not_chair505with Ryu's damage in SF6 I see that changing very soon
Nah, if a shoto is really good then I kinda hate fighting them, it's like they have no weaknesses to exploit and you see them everywhere. Lucario in Pokken is the main one for me since that's the game I play semi-competitively, he's honest but really annoying due to how solid all of his buttons are, and the fact that he's _everywhere._ Like a 3rd of europe play him, not even exaggerating.
Arguing with a rushdown player and hearing “just block” is my sleeper agent activation at this point
1)Why you hate fighting Grapplers
2)Why you hate fighting Zoners
3)Why you hate fighting puppet characters
4)Why you hate fighting rush down
5)Why you hatin' dawg
fr fr
I mean, if you don't want to play against a cast of characters that each have their dishonest gimmick; you probably shouldn't be playing fighting games.
6)Why you hate not getting any bitches
Views and it’s fun
Every fighting game player hates fighting any other character, every character is bullshit except your own
People hate the risk/reward of fighting a rushdown characters. Like you stated, they're reward on hit is waaay higher than they're risk on block (if any). They can also usually outbox you and have tools to get into boxing range. If you ever wanna feel like you're good at a game just play a low execution rushdown character.
Sort of depends on the level at which you play the game as high level players have a solid idea of how to deal with the bullshit a lot of Rushdown players have with things like option selects and good reads/guessing while others are just very good at either keeping you at out of your preferred range or maximizing their own damage once you do get hit since Rushdown has a bit of a risk to it.
@@javianbrown8627 lets be real
No one in this comment section is in the mythical high skill level you speak of
@@javianbrown8627 You're describing Top level (the "Cream-of-the-Crop). That's the elite of the elite players that you see in every Top 8 of a major. They're such outliers that it's almost not even important to include them when considering cheapness. They will adapt and win regardless. I've been in the "high level" ranks of Tekken and play friends that are the same (TGP/TGO) on PC, but the gap between us and Pros like Knee are laughable.
@@derrickrobinson7269 I'm not necessarily referring to the top 1% of a game's playerbase but rather my point was that the level of play can determine what is generally considered difficult. A lot of players at lower levels struggle to get in on zoners and characters with large disjointed hitboxes for example or characters that are very gimmicky more so than Rushdown as at this level people aren't as patient and don't know when they can/should move. I remember it took me a while to learn how to fight Ram in Guilty gear for example while fighting the typical Gio was easier despite her fast dash and solid moves. I also remember people struggling to get in on my Jade in Mortal Kombat until I got to a higher level.
The rant about dedicated rushdown player's mentality was so cathartic. So many just refuse to even try to play the game any way that isn't their flowchart, and it almost makes learning their one trick and beating them less fun because of it. And god forbid they actually do know how to block and adapt. Those players are demons, waiting to steal your soul with their sick combo and absurd mixup, biding their time as you flail, desperately trying to make them crack before it's too late and it's their turn again.
I love playing as a rush-down character! I mindlessly rush into 75% of my fights. This in turn goes to show why I lose a lot of my fights, but at least I’m going down enjoying the match.
Honestly, the biggest reason I hate rushdown is because that's all that seems to be acceptable anymore. Grapplers are getting worse. Zoners are getting worse. Rushdown keeps getting more tools.
Grapplers have always been generally worse. And tbh we've seen more interesting grapplers as time had gone by across the genre. They've gotten more personality and creativity and in recent games have started to stray away from the Big + Slow steretype.
Zonera have actually always gotten the most tools because zoning isn't just projectile based, and people seem to not get that, on top of the fact that Zoners by default have some of the most unique kits. Theyre always a subversion of whatever the games core mechanics are. They end up being the most unique.
I'd argue rushdown is the least hated. And that's only because people are generic brain af and will praise the "come fight me" and "stop running like a bitch" or "why do you so much damage?" sentiments... However rushdown is just as equally if not the MOST hated when it happens TO them.
Fighting games players hate everything. 😅
Not trying to shit on your opinion, but what I'm saying is facts. 💯
It doesn't matter what you play. There's a side or group of players and fans that will hate in your character pick, and that goes beyond archetypes.
@@theWIIISEguyfitting name for such a comment
For every rushdown character that obliterates a zoner, theres a zoner who absolutely disrespected the shit out of a grappler and a grappler who grappled into oblivion a shoto. Nobody is free of sin. Except shotos i think
Ngl, I just don’t like 50/50 situations. Zoners having reliable setplay is just irritating. Reliable setplay is irritating in general.
@D Hayris 50/50s are almost integral to mixups and reliable setplay is a sign of a solid strategy. I'm not condescending. I'm genuinely posing the question.
You want games that lack mixups and reliable setplay? Just poking and confirming into single layered rewards that reset back to nuetral.
The whole reason I kept playing zoners: it felt like I could get better with them faster since the players of those characters actually used their tools to overcome obstacles rather than complain about a -4 button that they can’t DP out of
As a grappler main, I accept that mixing people is fun, but (and hear me out) seeing someones trt to mix you up and just end up getting grabbed because of a gap I was waiting patienly is, IN MY OPINION, more fun
I’ve been adoring Guilty Gear Strive for a good minute, but several of my most hated characters have been rushdowns who can 1. Do some bullshit that launches their body towards me at Mach 1, and 2. Loop the same combo against my block and ask that I identify the 4 frame window in which I can counter. Oddly enough, fighting characters like Potemkin, Faust, and even some zoners like Asuka R have been the most fun I’ve had in this game, while rushdowns like Sol Badguy, Giovanna, and Baiken have made me give that uninstall button a second thought.
Man I also agree that rushdowns are “nuances”
More accurate title: Why you hate fighting Millia and Chipp
I'm a person that loves to play zoners/grapplers all the time. Just getting into rushdown characters recently. I cannot tell you how many times I've asked "Wait? What do you mean that was a safe attack? What do you mean I can keep on attacking? I'm not going to get punished for this!?". Makes me feel like I'm cheating, and some of my friends are getting annoyed that they suddenly aren't finding opportunities to play the game anymore =p
I dont mind fighting against rushdown characters i have some respect for them as performing combos on block and keeping the opponent in block stun for a long time is hard af, BUT what i hate fighting against the most is rushdowns that have CROSS UPS as part of their game plan, sure every character can technically do cross ups but im talking about teleports and dashes that get you behind the opponent in an instant such as Millia Rage, those are the goddamn devil and i hate it
Yeah, I love playing rushdown characters, but I think it isn't fair to give them neutral skipping moves that crossup. It isn't really right
I don’t think it’s unfair on millia. she still has to earn her true crossups with 2d, septem, or rc and it comes at the price of her bad health, damage, and blockstring pressure
Ehh it’s fine on Millia, she has almost no block pressure anyways lol (also you can punish it if you’re ready for it)
This was excellent. I think that it needs to be more widely considered that rushdown tends to be easier, at a lower/intermediate level, because
1: they tend to be pretty privileged characters, since they are cool, and more people think they're fun, so devs tend to be more comfortable letting them be good.
2: If you play the character correctly, and don't overextend, often you don't *have* to do anything commital, a luxury other archetypes don't always have.
3: you're far less likely to need to provide answers to problems, just be the one presenting the problems.
In a real time game, providing effective answers while dealing with the mental stack is extremely difficult. Providing said problems can often boil down to the dreaded "flowchart."
Full disclosure, there's a lot of bias from me here, I play a lot of neutral bullies and zoners, both of which often have a hard time dealing with 1 or more of the various flavors of rushdown you described.
I do agree that the archetype of rushdown isn't difficult. However, it's partially which rushdown you're talking about.
A character like Sol is super simple. But someone like C. Viper is one of the most technical characters in Street Fighter IV.
And this is why I think ssbm fox is the character that represents the rushdown archetype best. He’s a character that objectively overpowers every other, but he lives and dies off of YOUR ability to be incredibly good at him in a technical sense. He has a massive weakness in his combo-ability which makes him reliant on winning in the situations where the odds are stacked heavily in his favor.
0:15 i subbed to see this animation on a consistent basis
People play rushdown this days non-stop because morst of the time 70% of the damn cast is rushdown
"you're only minus if your are a bitch" Sun Tsu, and every single rushdown player
I don't like rushdown because while playing them it's super automated AF and grossly repetitive while being highly rewarding for little to nothing.
Meanwhile fighting rushdown is unfun because it's all at their pace (they set it), in plenty of bad examples just means playing defense most of the time vs players that act pretty toxic about losing to others that need to have significantly better defensive play and actually think about how to attack.
And the irony that most of them get mad about zoners not being "punished for push button" when that's was typically is the most common trait of playing a rushdown is grossly safe offense. Or getting pissy they get punished hard by someone that reads 3+ mixups right for maybe 1/2 or 1/3 the HP. Mixup character are designed for people that aren't great to safely hit the same 2 or 3 combos but they make you hold block most of the time and it's boring overall.
I don't think it's bullshit. Plenty of rushdowns are good and bad depending on the game and balance. But playing a rushdown we'll just takes knowing your moves most the time vs learning other character requiring you to learn the matchups on top of that for the same performance.
ngl, gotta love the editing on this one, absolutely sublime visual comedy moments from time to time 👌
I'd say having the defining characteristics of rushdown being preferring close range and strong pressure options is strange because that also seems to include grapplers. I'd say the key characteristic of rushdown needs to be their speed/movement options that let then cut through neutral the way a grappler can't. Since characters like sol/leo/slayer lose the high movent needed to "rush" in exchange for higher health and big damage, but don't have the longer limbs and armor of grapplers, I'd say they're a completely separate archetype of brawler. Slayer is more a pire brawler while sol has some fast neutral skip tools (albeit very linear/commital) that give him more of a rushdown element.
Grapplers usually don't have a lot of pressure. Often most of their pressure is short and high risk. That's why grapplers are usually low tier AF. If they actually had pressure they would flat out actually counter rushdown really hard.
I agree with the fact they need more breakdown because I don't mind pixie/set play characters but brawlers are the most aggravating characters in basically every fighting game to me.
Sol is a strike throw Rushdown type character while Millia is a mixup based one. And then there’s order sol who’s something entirely unique and chipp is a pixie character
I do like how Noel’s design and lore tells us that she peaked before high school. I do find that amusing
Rushdown is the real glue eating playstyle, the real smooth brain archetype, the real whippit pounding characters , the real gorillas.
You allways have the option to not get grabbed, millia or crackhead is going to be in there. You dont get a say
What so many people realize is that EVERY archetype has their glue eating. Rushdowns, Grapplers AND Zoners can all be braindead if given the chance. No onenis safe from gule eating!
The problem isn't that rushdown is inherently braindead. It's that modern games have gradually leaned so far into that kind of mentality that it feels frustrating for everyone else.
I get that most people don't like turtling and keepaway, but if these aren't decently strong options the only stable strategy is rushdown. This is what bothers me. You'd probably be surprised if I told you command grabs are a defensive option, because they arguably aren't anymore. Rushdown usually doesn't have any hard counters, and the only way to balance this is by designing every other character with a "if you can't beat em, join em" mentality. (See DBFZ)
I don't hate fighting Rushdown in games with a wider variety of viable gameplans, it's just that that's not something I can say about most modern games.
As someone who likes to play zoning, with fireballs more than limbs, any projectile on any character has my interest. The way it plays against any other projectile, or against a neutral, or how it can be avoided by a kit is very interesting to me...
Arcing projectiles from item characters, traps, fireballs of different speeds, fireballs in general, fireballs with gimmicks...they all have my interest and my goodness I love them all! Faust's bag bomb, Anji's butterfly birdy, I-No's note...the minions...
I don't even play Guilty Gear, but I know how I would play it. What I *do* play is Fantasy Strike though...and I know my favorite archetype there.
I believe the rushdown match up goes hand in hand with your defense skills. Most rushdown matchups consist of a lot of pop quizes being thrown at your face at really high speed. Of course, players and character matchups impact a whole lot in it, but once you have an active defense and the opponent won't catch you sleeping on any fake stuff they might try to extend their strings, the rushdown matchup becomes a whole lot more manageable.
As a Grappler/Shoto fighter I find this video relatable
I love baiken in GG
Got to celestial with her and had an absolute blast mixing everyone like a fucking turntable >:)
As a Millia player, thank you for acknowledging us in a video
Laughing like a maniac as you combo your opponent into next week is a special kind of joy
I love fighting rushdown characters I prefer that over getting zoned out.
Finally, I didn't expect that video to come up this early or at all
I expected to make a "why you hate zoners" before
Now let's hope the next guilty gear will be less like strike and more like+r because strive is made for people who complain about everything that isn't rushdown
Grapples: "Allow us to introduce ourselves."
Not sure how hot this take is anymore but yes rushdown is insanely easy only limited by how long you want to stay in the lab. The real difficulty in these games is, despite how hated, projectile zoners since in many cases they are still playing neutral when chucking projectiles at you which optimally for them is at a reactable distance. The exception being things like Vatista 235 Series form BBTAG (Under night inbirth rep) or severely overwhelming ones like Morgan form one of the Marvel vs Capcom games when the entire screen may as well be on big projectile from my understanding of it.
I would explain the take in detail but this comment is already enough of a text wall as it is so leave it here.
Zoner player both projectile and normal based more so the latter, because hitting the medium button and covering half the screen with my big ass sword or object is easy, so I can spend my time learning how to block mix as I hit you with the 6th consecutive 2 hit combo. In that mindset yes rushdown is toxic a character that can jump the entire screen in the time it takes me to throw a fire ball is annoying compounded by the fact that they tend to not only have more health than me but also do infinitely more damage per interaction is, when it is good, not very engaging. And it becomes the most popular play pattern because people think “fighting” game so zoners are less intuitive and grapplers feel clunky even with there far wider margin for error. (Perspective of a BBTAG, Type Lumina, Gran Blue Fantasy player). Can’t wait for my turn to get shit on even if it is likely things I have heard at nasuem.
And yes, I play Smash and Rushdown is optimally suited to the time out win con in that game. Key point the blue hedgehog. But it is more fun to run at people and you know kill them yourself.
If you don’t like fighting rush down characters, you should see dragonball fighterz. Almost the entire cast is a rush down character and even the zoners and grapplers are rush down characters. Hell, there is a designated button to rush down your opponent.
15:26 i felt this in my soul
I once said I play smash competitively in a fgc discord I literally got called slurs by an admin then got banned
Bro, your attitude and tone is legit why i subscribed.
Your confidence, and willing to backtrack (Guilty Gear Theme revisits) shows serious ingegrity.
Keep it up homie 🎉
7:03 this entire edit hurts my soul why did you do this to me
This video was fun, andt it also got me remembering the "introducing Ken Masters" AMV from the early days of SF4. Good times!
I play zoners and Rushdown. I understand the sentiment, but I can't stop
As a grappler, Rushdown is fun.
And I don’t blame Rushdown players for complaining! They’re tools often get toned down so they don’t become too strong. And if they become op even once they get their legs broken.
As a potemkin main, this video was CATHARTIC.
Like most of my matches are:
"HOLY SHIT IM SO FUCKING SICK OF YOU CHIPP GET OUT OF MY FUCKING FA-" (632146 + P).
TBF Chipps hate it just as much. It's a 10-10 matchup.
@@ethanhinton4549 yeah but the chipp's pain is instant. Just one simple breaking of the spine is all it takes, meanwhile i have to get my cock and balls tortured for the entire match.
One of your funniest vidéos so far XD
Also you’re putting little Gekko in new backgrounds now, your editing skills are improving each video
Love your videos man keep it up
HOLY FUCK, YOU NAILED PRETTY MUCH MY EXACT THOUGHTS! Whate everyone constantly forgets is that Grapplers, Zoners, and Rushdowns are like the Triforce of archetypes. These three need to coexist in order to have a balanced roster. They all have strengths and weaknesses that play off of each other. But in recent years, people keeping thinking that rushdowns are the ONLY archetype that matters, and so they complain about it! And then the devs listen, and only make Rushdown charatcers! There's an overpopulation problem! There's too many fucking RUSHDOWNS! Zoners and Grapplers are both archetypes with very nuanced gameplay of you just give them some time, but nooooo! These gorrilas gotta fucking shlap their meat together and breed even MORE Rushdowns like fucking rats! There's so much untapped potential for the other Archetypes, but no one seems to fucking listen anymore!
Me, who plays zoners: "Hehe look at the monkeh players getting roasted"
Gekko: "Also zoners you're fu**ing next!"
Me: *sweating*
I hate playing against shotos. I guess the best way to put it is that shotos are the archetype with the strongest ability to make their opponent play their game and they win not by enforcing a specific gameplay but by using their well rounded kits to prevent their opponet from getting any advantage. Shotos are like that annoying kid during recess that won't stop moving when they are tagged in a game of freeze tag.
"Also Zoners, you're fucking next"
YES! YES!!!! YESSSSSSSSSS!!!
As a filthy Zoner myself, I am so excited to get the roasting my ass *deserves*, I'm so glad this is turning into a series!
Uhhh
Darkness you like getting hurt do you
Konosuba
This editing is too good man. Letting me know I need to get on it! Great video
I feel like rushdowns are so hated because fighting them requires a lot of defensive play once they’re in, and I feel like earlier fighting games did not have very elaborate or fun defensive options. It is much more tolerable now that I’m playing strive, which has a lot of good defensive options, both universal and character specific
can't wait to see the zoners !
great video
I am a rush-down since the first contact with a fighting game. I would pick them unconsciously even before I knew what a DR is. I must admit that it amuses me to see when my buddy loses patience with every beating I give him lol. That's why I prefer presence over online play, although I enjoy everything equally, even when I get beaten.
Got to disagree on what's the most fun to do in Fighting games.
Putting the fear of god in your non-believing foe before breaking their back with a Grappler is easily the most fun I have playing them.
So there’s a grappler cult and a unga bunga cult, does that mean there’s a zoner cult to?
Please keep this same energy for the rest of the videos in this mini series
4:50 I guessed all of this correctly, lol. But I also know how Baiken works, so...
I probably would have struggled to block the crossup in an actual match, though. Probably would have accidentally input a jump and got hit even though I guessed right.
That's what makes rushdown scary. The speed. Maybe you can guess or react to them, but can you execute your response as fast as they can run you over? Chipp is on his fifth coke binge of the day, he's not having problems keeping up.
Can you do a video on 'big spacing' archetypes? Some examples are T7 Gigas, MKX Kotal Khan, Melee Ganondorf, DNF Crusader. Aka big characters with big normals that hit hard but are generally slow. These are the characters im drawn too.
Zoning? Grabbing? Fair? HAHAHAHA
NO
APE IS FOREVER
Rule number 1, if they unga, you bunga.
"Just play grapplers lol" - Me, 2 seconds before getting blendered for the next 13 seconds
As a Braindead Bridget player, I agree that rushdown is both fun and frustrating af
I play grapplers in platform fighters and I would love to play them in traditional fighters but I’m just better at rushdowns in traditional fighters
This is the best archetype! Something I won’t say about grapplers and zoners
As an Axl player ( who's friends hate that I play Axl ) I am so excited for the eventual, probably Why You Hate Zoners
I actually love fighting rushdown. Me and my mate always pick up rushdown characters, and each of our game sessions end up hype as fuck.
Playing rushdown characters is like playing 2D Ultrakill
as a naoto k player this was music to my ears geting in the enmey face and beating them senceless feels so good
"The moment they figure you out you crumble"
Me:-sweats in ushi-
Rouge takes shaken not stirred to a whole new level
I honestly have more problems with zoners than rushdown
I wish I could upvote this twice for the amount of Salt on these Fighterz Friez
We appreciate your dedication to fairness in making one of these for the other archetypes lol
I may hate fighting rushdown but I sure do love this thumbnail
This is why I play Rushdown, just mixing people as Chipp is so fun when they have no idea how to stop what I'm doing and I can just run combos on them
The intro got me laughing evily as well. Good stuff.
When you do the Zoner video, you gotta pull up some MK9 Freddy or Kenshi, or MKX Hish Qu Ten Predator, Pyro Tanya, Kenshi, or Summoner Quan.
Injustice also has some good ones. Zod in 1, Deadshot in 2, especially
amazing video Gekko S. Quirrel it was so effective that it made my baiken main friend apologize to me
As a rushdown player, in defense of all of us Rushdowns, at the very least you can never say that we are running away/stalling/not interacting. We will always make sure that the game is being played because moving forward is the universal gameplan. Zoners on the other hand have been social distancing far before Covid
The most rushdown thing you can say is that zoners stall the game
@@ellagage1256 The stalling statement is actually smash bros specific since its pretty hard to stall in a traditional fighter.
“approach tools” is a weird way to say charged fuujin
Been looking forward to this.
As a puppet char player i cant wait for one of those videos on my kind
This guy is the John Oliver of the fighting game world.
9:48
*CLEARLY*
You've never played Noel 😎
That persona 5 ost tho *chef's kiss*
The beginning of the video gekko sounded like a may main from ggst
Thank you for commenting on Baiken players and how they complain about Tk Yoz. Axl has to do Tk Bomber back to back unless he wants to have no damage.
I am fine with rushdown but grapplers are the bane of my existence
I dont know why I clicked this video. I fucking LOVE rushdown
I feel so called out by this video
I feel so validated when GekkoSquirrell implied my main Axl take some skill and Rushdown players are monkeys. Thanks Gekko for inflating my ego, I appreciate it
Hear me out: Everyone in Strive is a Rush down
How do you play rushdown Axl
Insanity. The chaos agent is here, and he is sponsored this time. Jeez
6:58 Yeah that's cool and All Geks, but you ever landed that sweet, sweet OV Teabag on another sentient being?
Shit's transcendent.
After all my years playing fighting games i've learned all i want is to smix people up