I loved this game, and I dont know if i remember correctly, but one of the BIGGEST issues i had was the points of no return, specifically the last one, because i feel like it had so little to actually explore in that area.
The points of no return seem to be the largest impact on so many people. Considering how critical Djinn collecting is in this series, it's such an add choice to have these points dropped throughout the game.
Thank you! This series truly rewarded your completionist kick and trained you enough to expect that design atmosphere they ultimately disrupted in Dark Dawn. Additionally, part of my issue here is this installment failed to age alongside the humongous community that sought to embrace this new installment and revitalize the franchise. Actually, I'd argue that the maturity of Dark Dawn not only failed to parallel the age of its loyal audience, but it regressed compared to Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age - not to mention the designers' choice to contradict known information of pre-established installments that is grounded in lore (e.g. known population centers in already explored landmasses, the significance to Quality of Life intrinsic to Alchemy, etc.) while remaining faithful to peripheries that aren't (e.g. summons, djinni, etc). It makes me genuinely want to be a Creative Director or Story Designer for Golden Sun 4 (challenge impossible) or be a lead in another RPG project.
The Multiple 'Points of no Return' is what I didn't like. I like to re-explore areas after a while. Also the Cliffhanger Ending and the fact that we only get to see Isaac and Garet. I wanted to see what the other 6 are like now.
Ya there's a lot to be desired about those choices. I don't particularly like points of no return in general unless they are incredibly substantial like the Pre-Searing in Guild Wars or the falling of the plate in FF7.
Thank you for your video. I never quite understood why people hate dark dawn so much. Now, thanks to you, I understand better. But, honestly, overall it is a good game and everyone should try it. You said it, Camelot waited too long to release the 3rd entry in the franchise. I am someone who played the first two games when it came out on the gba. When I played dark dawn for the first time I had quit video games because I was too busy with college. I discovered randomly in a store that there was in fact a third golden sun game on the DS and I had no idea. I bought a ds just to play the game. And I enjoyed it a lot. I was so happy to have another golden sun to play. Since then, i never stopped playing video games. So, for me, dark dawn is the game which made me fall in love with video games again and It will always have a special place in my heart. Thanks again for your video.
I love this story. It seems like everyone has this game that makes them fall in love with the hobby all over again. For me it seems to happen every 5-7 years ish where a game just comes in a sweeps me off my feet in a way that I can't explain that ignites a passion for gaming even more fervent than I had prior. It's always awesome to hear of others same experience. You're very, very welcome for the video. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to watch it!
I loved the Garoh segment of the game of Lost Age. So imagine my disappointment when the long-awaited third game came out with a Jupiter adept with lycanthropy and she has no connection with Garoh.
The cliffhanger was definitely a mistake. I really wish they would've just committed to that story all thr way through because it was honestly good enough of a setup on its own.
Ok, everything positive you said is 100% true, BUT coming from 2 games where you literally exploded the whole world, to see cities and races that “existed for thousands of years” (as you said), new alchemy machines supposedly buried over a mountain that you even explored in the past games, a giant world changing monstrosity that just so happened to be spared being forever flooded and destroyed by the sea following the mutation of the land, the fact that, yes, you just casually find out that you can’t go back for no reason and be prevented to catch a slipped word (that happened to me, a word that only an npc say in a dialogue, i think it was “biblin”, lost forever) or face the ultimate boss and unlock the single best summon of the whole franchise.. it was bad. Then add the completely forgotten main quest and the 7 YEARS WAIT, you can see why the fan were pissed Edit: i know you already pointed out all of what i wrote, but the 7 years of waiting really made everything worst imo, and for real.. why doesn’t it have a real plot? Like “oh, the world has this under this threat, but let’s ignore it for this other thing happening, and then remind everyone at the end!” It was really poorly planned, and they had 7 years to plan it!
I clearly don't have the same frustration for Golden Sun in particular, but I totally get this same anger in frustration with other releases over the years. Considering just how well crafted the first two games are it felt so weird to have to constantly go back and forth between praise and criticism in this video. It's just something the first 2 games don't warrant but Dark Dawn is a mess. It truly is. If the series ever reboots again I can only hope they've learned a lot. Though perhaps since so many fans have just accepted its never happening, perhaps if the 4th game is just better than Dark Dawn that would be enough.
from what i understand, the Beastmen in Dark Dawn are NOT the same beastmen as the ones in Lost Age. Maybe some of them are, but not all of them. Dark Dawn Beastmen are a very new race, basically the golden sun event caused some humans to become more beastlike, and some animals to become more humanlike, creating a race of beastmen. So that squirrel-man you see playing the trumpet? I'm pretty sure he used to be an everyday mundane squirrel. Is it weird that they built up a culture and society in 30 years? Yes, but it's not entirely unheard of, 30 years is still a long time.
Ya they definitely seem to be a new race. My surprise is definitely that they have an entirely new empire, kingdom, culture , and a royal lineage in but a few decades.
@@Zerbraxi two best guesses are either 1. You find yourself very different from everyone else in the world with a few others like you. may as well do SOMETHING to distinguish yourself, so just start working stuff out quickly. or 2. maybe it's a "live fast die young" situation, where they die of old age at like, ten years old or something, so more generations have passed then for humans. 30 years is still a pretty good length of time, i could at least see them building up that city in that span of time with the help of psynergy and the like.
As a long time Golden Sun fan, bravo on these videos!! I wanted to say I felt exactly the same way you did about the Psynergy Vortex story being dropped, and I too had forgotten about them before the cliffhanger. But I suspect that is actually NOT an oversight and was done on purpose, which we would have learned about had Golden Sun 4 ever been made. Of course, there's no way to know, but my guess is that Alex was behind the vortexes to try to eliminate Isaac, and more importantly, finally depower and beat The Wise One who had always seemed a step ahead of him. Thus, when your party gets too close to studying them, the rest of the game develops. I mean, I've always wondered what Alex got working with the dark clan folks and routinely it seems he actually is rooting for you to win against them even though he positions himself as their ally. I think he just needed more time and used them, which is where the 4th game might have gone and FINALLY given us our chance to fight Alex once and for all. I mean the guy is the big bad in many ways here but we have not once faced him! Anyways, I've had that thought locked away for years so glad I found a video to throw it all out, I hope my like of your video is sufficient apology for dumping all of this on your comments!
No need to apologize at all! I love these discussions. Just chatting about games is the primary reason I make these videos and my favorite part really is getting the ability to get other peoples thoughts and opinions in the comments. I've always enjoyed that feeling where everyone is on the couch and hours go by as your just talking about games, or the same in a voice chat. You have any interesting idea there. I think more and more that Camelot was attempting to do the exact same thig with Dark Dawn as they did with the original 2 where we'd have a duology of releases. Perhaps it really is just a matter of that we never got the second half. I don't envy Camelot if they were to bring back Golden Sun now because if you continued the story of the vortexes you'd really have to recap a lot for any newcomers to the franchise since the story would be taking place directly in the middle of an already active plot. Doing that gracefully will be quite the challenge. It's funny you mention Alex and us not facing him. I had a note in Dark Dawn doc specifically that said, hold on, I'll just copy and paste it here: This final boss is cool and all but we've done this exact same thing in The Lost Age. It's a little emotional, but we've been here. How much better could this have been if Alex was waiting for us at the top of the tower and he was our final roadblock? How much better could this have been if he was training himself in Sol Magic and using the Umbra Clan to gain their power as well? Imagine if the Golden Sun event caused Alex to be able to cross adept and utilize multiple psynergy types without the need of Djinn? This Chaos Chimera is a good boss, but I can't help but immediately come up with better ideas like Alex being the final boss with him wielding all variations of Mercury, Sol, and Umbra magic. It's an idea that I left out of the video mostly to try and keep it under an hour long lol, but I also am anticipating that at SOME point Alex HAS to be our "final boss" so to speak. Now I guess I owe you an apology for dumping this into the comments haha!
@@Zerbraxi I agree, and especially with Golden Sun I feel there aren't enough opportunities to talk about this franchise, as sadly it seems to be back burnered hard right now. Who knows, though, with the first going on the GBA service for the Switch there is hope again perhaps! I think if they did want to make a Golden Sun 4, they would have to do some kind of re-release to acquaint people with the story, and I always thought a Live-a-Live/Octopath Traveler style would go well. That said, I'm not sure it's impossible, as Metroid Dread just up and picked up after almost two decades to continue Samus's story, so there is a possibility of it working. I definitely think the developers were going for another two-part saga with Dark Dawn and whatever the fourth game would have been, though the decision to bring 8 party members right away in Golden Sun Dark Dawn would have complicated that, as what, we'd have 16 members in the end? Either way, I think that would have explained a lot, including the cliffhanger and the absence of figures like Jenna, Felix, Piers, and Sheba, all of whom featured way more prominently in Lost Age and would likely have been the focuses of the second half of this new series, as well. Since Nintendo and Camelot don't seem eager to resolve Dark Dawn's cliffhanger, I've always created my own lore to fill in the gaps until we hear a more official story. To me, I always envisioned Felix's daughter being the leader of the fourth game (perhaps, Sheba's daughter too???). We then get some other children of first game figures and maybe even returning party members from Dark Dawn who join up on the new quest later in the game. A bunch of in-game shenanigans would take place, but it would end with the realization that the Wise One was originally a superweapon of sorts crafted by the light tribe (the one who built the tower at the end of Dark Dawn) during the time that Alchemy was still unsealed as a way to take out the dark tribe in a war between them. However, the Wise One realized that this kind of power wasn't safe in their hands either, so after the dark ones were beaten, the Wise One was the one who sealed away Alchemy. This would explain the light tribe's absence from the game, and explain why it tasked Isaac & Co from the first game to try to block Saturos and Menardi from unleashing Alchemy and why it confronted you at Mars Lighthouse in The Lost Age for deciding to be the ones to break the seal. Alex, who was deprived of his godhood by the Wise One and Isaac, wanted to take back what was his, so he sought out the Dark Clan to find a way to try to figure out how he could challenge the Wise One, and that explains the supermassive Psynergy vortex at Mt. Aleph and why Isaac in Dark Dawn says that he feels as though the Wise One is pleading with him for help and why he chose to go to Mt. Aleph after Matthew & Co. left on their adventure. In the end, Alex would have been the final boss, and a living embodiment of the very abuse of power that the Wise One had initially feared when sealing the power away in the first place. Maybe one day, we'll find out the real ending though...
Ya know, maybe I AM just overthinking them releasing Golden Sun 4. Your point about Dread is dead on. That had a left over story from Fusion and they just picked up like the gap between Fusion and Dread never happened.
It would have been cooler if they'd reversed things and had you play as the mars adept duo this time. Like, maybe they were gonna be the next Agatio and Karst if they failed and they didn't run out of time, but then the world was saved and they're just...left behind. So they go poke around the Mars Lighthouse and discover some new terrible thing that's gonna happen(Maybe rather than slowly regrowing, Weyard's lost pieces are rocketing in at high speeds and shaking everything to pieces!), and they need to go find the old Heroes to save the day again. Except, y'know, Prox has spent the last fifteen years making LITERALLY EVERYONE hate them, so you've gotta spend a lot of time sneaking around and redeeming your village! You could meet an outcast beast person who wants to find the Heroes because of the rumors they know of a town of beast people! Heck, make the whole plot about outcasts and redemption! Oh well. I guess random black holes appearing everywhere is...cool.
This is a REALLY cool idea. This would also fit the "trope" of Golden Sun having you play as the opposite perspective as well. Honestly though, basically anything would've been a better plot than the psynergy suckers we got.
41:00 it's not like Kiara actively says that she is glad not to have inherited her fathers curse in being able to read minds, which she even says that Ivan told her he saw it as curse and that she should be thankfull about not having it Even Seveta wishes she didn't have it.
My complaint here isn't that the characters had it and didn't want it. Honestly, that actually would've been an incredibly interesting angle if Kiara could do it but is more vocally against it rather than how Ivan said little about it in the original and TLA. However, as a gameplay mechanic it's one of the most unique and fascinating elements to Golden Sun so it being withheld for so long in Dark Dawn is a shame, regardless of the in game explanation. I would argue that just because an absence is explained in no way detracts from the interactive consequence of its absence.
Surprised you barely mention the difficulty of the game. The puzzles are several steps down what Golden sun did. The combats are so easy (except for the final boss which is an incredibly high step up) that you can just win everything in auto attack mode. All the depth of the djinn system is basically wasted because it's just slower and less efficient than just use your attack action. Yes, it's possible that there's a few goods and people overreacted trashing it much below where it belongs. But being challenged by the puzzles and smart bosses was one of the ways this saga became one of my favourites. It feels like playing a watered down version of it.
I was originally planning on diving deeper into the difficulty, but honestly I was already worried there was too much going on in this video. I did at least make a mention of the puzzles. While I do agree that the first two games are more difficult puzzles, I actually found a lot of the puzzles to be far more clever. Some of the Zodiac puzzles immediately come to mind. Unfortunately the quality of the puzzles is all over the place so the great ones seem to be overlooked because of just how many exist that are "meh". I totally agree with your final statement though. I praised the first game, and my playthrough for my review of The Lost Age was my first time playing it and it's genuinely in my top 5 favorite JRPG's, but I think Dark Dawn is good, but like the exact definition of "good". I am in no rush to replay it, and probably never will if I'm being honest.
This video perfectly encapsulates what is complicated about this particular game. Frankly, everything about Dark Dawn is more nuanced than even a 50 minute essay can express. As a relative newcomer to Golden Sun myself, the vitrolic response to Dark Dawn has always sort of confused me. Even with my relatively low standards I found plenty to dislike, but also noticed that a lot of its strengths seem to be ignored. I get the impression that people are trying to find things to dislike, as if to prove a point. It kind of makes things harder for the rest of us who like the game, as if we have to sort of apologetically justify why we think the game is fine. And yet, I sort of get it when this game is a convenient scapegoat for why we didn't get more Golden Sun games. I genuinely think that if we are to get a true Golden Sun 4, much of the hate Dark Dawn currently faces will begin to fade (provided they don't screw it up). Because right now, Dark Dawn can't just be "that one weird mistep that was developed and/or released at a bad time", it's instead "this game *KILLED* Golden Sun and it's *NOT CANON*!" And yet, Camelot doesn't seem to actively ignore the series by including references to it in the Mario Sports games and brings it up during interviews completely unprompted. While unsubstantiated on my part, I've also heard claims that Nintendo Corporate actually loves Golden Sun and are supportive of a potential revival. I don't think the future as this series is as hopeless as it can sometimes seem. In fact, I think that the sunrise will happen sooner than many of us expect. See you in 2024 winky face.
You're totally on point on this one. There are were still several pages worth of notes that didn't make it into this video and those talking points were still back and forth with some praises and other criticisms. If you are prophetically accurate and something Golden Sun related releases in 2024....I'll buy your copy lol.
Love this comment, and Camelot putting references in their Mario Sports games gives me so much hope for a new game. I bet you any money that anyone who hates Dark Dawn will still within seconds buy the sequel.
I hate dark dawn, but I never say it's a terrible game, I say it's a bad golden sun game. It's obviously better than many objectively bad games. But with my gaming backlog growing, any future golden sun games for me would have gone from a day 1 no brainer purchase to 'I'll ignore the game and see what people say about it and then try to get it at a 50% discount next year' kinda thing.
Dark dawn is already decent at its best, it's just that the ending made its reputation worse. If only they ended the game with the three seeing their parents and starting to build the soarwing then people will be satisfied. But no, they decided to leave us with a cliffhanger that they think they'll be able to continue if only the sales didn't suck. Which they should expect because no one is gonna enjoy being blue balled.
Pretty fair sentiment. It also seems like they got distracted and decided to drop their original idea half way through development when I think it would've just been best to finish it out and not pivot like they did.
Just some minor nitpicks about the video. Blados and Chalice aren't "mercenaries", they're elites from a forgotten kingdom called Tuaparang that re-emerged after the Golden Sun event. Their names are card puns. Blados and Chalis are based on the Sword and Chalice suits in the Minor Arcana, while in Japanese, their names are Spade and Heart, respectively. Arcanus refers to a complete set of the Minor Arcana (56 card trump deck) and the Major Arcana (22 card suit deck, while in Japanese, his name is Ace. It reflects how Blados and Chalis (plus "Rodney" and "Penelope" [wands and pentacles; clubs and diamonds] if we ever get a sequel) are considered the High Empyro's standard direct subordinates, while Alex is a wild card, his ace in the whole, as it were. The game isn't harping on Alchemy being bad, it's exploring the consequences of bringing back Alchemy to the world. It was sealed away because people misused it to bring destruction, and Tuaparang is representative of that idea. The climax of The Lost Age ended with the characters bringing back alchemy to deal with whatever threat would come their way, and the psynergy vortexes and Tuaparang are that threat.
Ya I kinda made a mistake by not clearing up that statement of them being mercenaries. I said that because in the beginning that's what they look like, but ya, near the end their role is clarified and I had noted to point that distinction out but, for some reason, never did. The conclusion about Alchemy you point out near the end is definitely something I go over more in the Lost Age video. It's probably one of the best elements of Golden Suns story about the conundrum of to live with something powerful or to end it. There are dire consequences on either side and exploring that further is something I hope to do on a follow-up video perhaps. Thank you for the comment!!
@@Zerbraxi Yeah, the main reason I brought it up is because you said Alex’s alias was lame without mentioning anything about why it was like that, and it seemed odd that you mentioned how Dark Dawn seemed to be backtracking to “Alchemy Bad” like in the first Golden Sun”, rather than it just being the direct consequence of bringing back Alchemy. Speaking of, I think the beastmen subplot is related to this idea. The Umbra Gear can only be worn by beastmen, and they were made thousands of years ago by the Jenei (ancient adepts) and the Exathi (ancient craftsmen responsible for the many structures in Weyard, like the Lighthouses). This would imply that beastmen also existed in ancient times. As such, the beastmen in Garo were a sort of prelude to the effects of Alchemy’s power, showcasing how it can lead to evolutionary adaptations in certain humans. That’s why I think the beastmen in Morgal exist; aside from how one of the NPCs in Garo mention there are other tribes of beastmen that aren’t as friendly as the ones in Garo, there were others that transformed after the Golden Sun event. (Also, Eoleo did possess a consciousness when he was a baby; the whole reason Briggs escaped was because Eoleo could tell he was in trouble and got the key to his cell with his Psynergy.) The game definitely should’ve definitely spent more time in the oven, though. Even with the encyclopedia, they barely explain anything, and anything they do explain is done in sparse yet cryptic ways. It doesn’t help that everything changes in just 30 years; for all of Legend of Korra’s faults, at least that took place 70 years after Legend of Aang.
I didn't mention it because, quite honestly, I didn't really grind in any of the games and was always more than powerful to overcome the obstacles. Even the super bosses in Lost Age weren't really difficult outside 1 of them. Might just be me, but I didn't really notice too drastic of a difficulty change between the 3 games overall, except Dullahan in TLA. Though, I guess thinking back I guess I did struggle the most on the final boss in the original game more than the other 2. Yeah, I dunno. I guess I seriously just didn't notice it much.
I went over shortcuts in my Lost Age video, but you're right about the Djinn. It's a cool little game design tease that I just never went over. I'm glad you brought it up though
I really appreciate this video! I was one of those Golden Sun fans who was stuck waiting for the third game's announcement and release. I remember still enjoying my first time through, albeit disappointed at the story. I was left confused, and definitely lost with the direction the story took, the additions of brand new cultures/towns that didn't exist before in places we had already been. Add in the two new psynergy types mentioned only briefly at the end... only to be left with a cliffhanger about the original plot. I had put the game down for for at least a decade iirc, and had a discussion about the game with some friends and decided to boot it up and play it again. After I had finished it that second time, I think I felt roughly the same as you did now. There are still some seriously disappointing aspects to the game, and some other absolutely great points. I LOVE how they finally made a brawler/fighter jupiter adept (both Ivan and Sheba being very caster-oriented) and a caster earth adept! Conversely though, you don't get Himi until the last 10-15% of the game, which means less time experimenting and play with her, and also less time for her to be an actual character and member of the party with chances to interact and comment on things like all the others do. Honestly, even Eoleo isn't playable until the last 20-25% or so of the story as well, I feel like this isnt as bad since Eoleo just feels like a Garet/Tyrell clone as well (except actually cooler). The one thing I think you hadn't mentioned is the difference in the dungeons between the three games. The first one had mostly simple and good entry-level dungeons, with the second game taking a huge step forward and making the dungeons longer and more difficult/complicated (I still dread the idea of doing Ankhol ruins whenever i play through TLA again). Dark Dawn however, feels like it's even more simple and unsatisfying in it's dungeons than the original game, and I think this step back (in combination with the fumbled story) are the two largest drawbacks of this game. That being said, it's still a fine game overall and is certainly enjoyable, I think it just failed to live up to expectations. 6/10 there was no Mia, so I'm sad. :'(
Poor Mia. She was such a good character. Yeah, the dungeons are an interesting issue. They are for sure less advanced and less interesting than TLA design, but not all of the dungeons in TLA are great. A couple of them get genuinely obnoxious but the good overwhelmingly outweighs it in that title. However, I actually think that Dark Dawn's dungeons are more complex than the original game, just slightly so, but I think the original gets away with it's simplicity because of the novelty of the exploration and psynergy for the first time. Since the first game is clearly aiming to "ease players in" to the world of Weyard, that tone makes the dungeon design far more acceptable, where as Dark Dawn being the third entry in the series attempting the same trick just comes off as a step back. Just some extra thoughts I didn't share.
27:26 The weapons having more Unleashing options is considered a nerf. In The Lost Age, there is a crafting system and you can get really close to 100% crit rate. So basically just sword unleashes every turn. Especially with Sol Blades Megiddo. Having 4 options means you’re no longer guaranteed to always get Megiddo. Which was possible in the older games.
That's a good point. I don't personally care about nerfs or buffs if the overall experience or pacing is superior, especially across sequels. However, maybe the reason I didn't notice this change is because my Matthew was critting so damn often with the build I did so it just never occurred to me. I've only ever played these games casually and I think I might really try breaking into a deeper theorycrafting build my next Lost Age playthrough.
@Zerbraxi it's all good, I just binged through all 3 of your Golden Sun videos last night. And I loved them, just thought I would give you a reason I personally didn't like the game. I've been deep in the class system for a long time. And my favorite build was always the 95~% crit build. So when they changed the weapon system, it hurt me. Doing guarenteed 2k Meggido's every turn is really nice. You can play seriously if you want, but since I've been playing for so long I like to mess around and have some fun. If you use a save game editor on the first games save before transferring, you can get 2 Sol Blades for both Venus adepts. You can also add Ninja Sandals which is something programmed in the games just not available to obtain, and they give +15% crit rate. It's the only way to get over 100% crit in The Lost Age. Otherwise it's like 98% or something. Anyways I'm glad you like the games, they're my favorite GBA games. With Lost Age just being perfect in my mind. I do play Dark Dawn occasionally, but I can definitely see all its faults when I play.
Thank you for covering the entire Golden Sun series so far. The quality of your videos is amazing and just how fair your opinions on the series is truly refreshing. It's amazing to see this game be put under a microscope as somebody who grew up with the golden sun series as a whole. Im now a new subscriber and look forward to seeing new content for you :) keep it real 💯 👌 🔥
It was a lot to fun to do it all. This video series turned me from a casual fan to a Golden Sun enthusiast. The fans and community has been wonderfully supportive, even amongst disagreements. It's a long shot...but i REALLY hope that one day I need to make a 4th video on a new entry :)
Dark Dawn is an interesting game for me in that the more time goes on, the better it feels compared to the first game. After a first playthrough, or the occasional casual replay as the years go on, I understand why the game feels bad to people, but when you reach the point of breaking down each game in its individual parts, it swings a bit. Dark Dawn has some great puzzles, QoL improvements, mechanics, visuals, music, it truly maintains the 'feel' of the GBA games translated into the DS hardware and 3D. The first game, while a classic, feels incredibly rudimentary after you've sunk a lot of time into the other two, especially TLA as a direct comparison. It's more of a proof of concept game with little that it does the best in the series outside of the plot pacing. Basic characters, basic plot, basic puzzles, and as easy as Dark Dawn is, the originals don't exactly make you sweat when you realize you can just equip whatever your strongest weapon is and mash attack and a group heal every turn and stay ahead of the enemies for the entire game, or just full standby and nuke every boss in 1-2 turns. Both games feel like opposites of each other in what they do well and poorly, and people should look past the status of each game as 'iconic' or 'killed the series' when comparing them. In conclusion, this is why TLA is the peak of video gaming and Felix is the greatest Golden Sun character.
It's funny you mention some of these things because I also kinda feel Dark Dawn does well some of what the first 2 don't. That said it's still a bit of a mess for sure, but a fun enough one nonetheless. Though ya, The Lost Age just kinda owns!
I didn't hate it, but I barely remember the story... What I do remember is the difficulty being absolutely non-existent compared to the originals. Like "do I even need to heal?" easy apart from some optional bosses
"Utility Psynergy... Matthew will always have Move" and Isaac, Garet, and Felix didn't? That's like saying Ivan/Sheba lose Mind Read and Reveal when they class out I get what you're saying though, it's things like Growth (which originally had no native user) or Frost that could disappear.
You're totally right to criticize that statement lol. I mentioned those because they were the most obvious , but yeah I totally should've been more accurate with things like Whirlwind or Freeze/Cold Snap. It's always these types of examples and sentences that I miss how sloppy they can be after I've written, re-read them like 3 times and still heard them in editing another 3 times, yet I still never notice..whoops!
@@Zerbraxi I don't mean to be too harsh--it is mostly just trivia and won't be the deciding factor in whether someone tries &/or fondly remembers the games (and wonders why no playables are in _Smash Bros. ...)._
I have a theory that I repeatedly see me being the only one thinking. What if Alex isn’t a villain? What if everything he is doing is simply to try and continue to keep the world alive? He has immortality, but notice how that wasn’t enough for him? Now he wants to bring back not just dark psyenergy but also Light Psyenergy. Two more forms of Psyenergy we didn’t know about before this. And why would he want the world to be destroyed when he can finally walk it forever? And yet the ancient one’s true motivations have never been fully revealed. How do we know he isn’t behind the mourning moon?
Dark Dawn was my first (and only) ever Golden Sun game, I got it when I was like 9. I remember absolutely loving it, I never knew people hated it so much 😭
14:22 I hope that's still working for you haha. But fr I am sad I'm nearing the end of your Golden Sun series(34 minutes left on this one), it's been a treat to watch in pieces throughout the past month. All of your points have been extremely fair. I'm sure you'll have some other content I'll be able to watch in the same manner.
I can't describe how much it means to me that not only did someone watch my ramblings, but also made consistent effort to poke at an entire series. That is so awesome. I REALLY hope that you end up enjoying this last one, and hopefully you like what else I've made, and if not, maybe you'll like what's to come. Thank you again for watching.
Dark Dawn was a hidden gem with glaring flaws but still good. As long as you can look past the flaws and don't let them color your opinion on the rest of the game it is a really good game When i finished the game I was disappointed that it was over it felt unfinished like the story just started and then they ended it abruptly.
You said everything that needed to be said about this game! There are so many good things about this game that fans ignore. While not the best game in the series, it was more than enough to get me into the series as a 10 year old.
As much as we waited for it I think that dark dawn just needed more time in the oven, give the story structure another pass through, and polish up some of the animations, I hope that getting the gba games via NSO helps pave the way for a world after sunrise that lives up to the originals in a more fulfilling way, also yeah I agree about points of no return, they can be narrativly fulfilling so long as you can plan for them, my first time playing it I walked right into it like an idiot
I'd love to see sol and umbra djinn and psynergery for most everyone be almost like a sub type in pokemon and lean into the fact you already have 2 full teams so you can have a full light and dark complement of each, we already have a look at that since Sveta had the Umbra Gear and Matthew could utilize the Sol Blade. It would also give more weight to the Tua pareg being only dark (and maybe light)
Ahh, I never thought about using Sol and Umbra like sub classes, or perhaps like modifiers. Sol Venus and Umbra Venus could lean towards different modifications on top of already existing class system. I really like the idea of something like that. Really clever. I also hope NSO will bring Golden Sun back into the realm of discussion. I mean, to some degree it already has since I have already had several friends mention that they saw Golden Sun available for GBA and want to try it after hearing about it on the internet for years. Let's hope!
@@Zerbraxi it would definitely help given one of the detractions I remember was that there were too many characters that felt like they didn't need to be there and it would give access to more psynergy without adding character bloat
I was one of those Golden Sun fans that waited and waited and waited, and couldn't believe we were getting a sequel game in 2010. I did a v-log thing at the time when I finished it, so I still know my honest thoughts from then: Dark Dawn is....fine. On its own, with no information of the other two games, it might even be seen as great. But I *do* know the original two games, and cannot divorce my opinion from them that Dark Dawn is just utterly mid by comparison. Everything you hit on is stuff I questioned too. Combat didn't feel as good, but at LEAST they introduced members of your party switching to attack other enemies should their original target be felled. But the lore questions are numerous - "ancient civilizations" and their "dormant technology" and "the long heritage of the Beastmen" - where WAS all this?? The world feels so unfamiliar, and it's not just because things shifted geographically. Things only being 30 years on really doesn't compute - maybe do 300 years and I'd be more on board with it. I get that some people will go "it's parts of the world you didn't see", but it just feels really strange. Like, would the werewolves of Garoh be so mind-blowing if the Beastmen had a kingdom this whole time? I'm also glad you touched on an aspect that I don't see people mention a lot - DD is *really* hand-holdy and easy, both in terms of having several revival options & healing spells super early, and how the game functions. This seems to be in line with franchises like Pokemon just kind of adding more and more training wheels as time goes on, and I remember feeling like the adventure never really "got going". I played through Dark Dawn always pushing towards "the next thing" and hoping that "next thing" would finally make the game feel like a game, which is not an optimal way to play a game. The other thing that nobody mentions is that the 3D models are such a step down from the sprites. The artwork and design in the GBA games is GORGEOUS. It is fluid and eye-catching, and while I still think Camelot does solid environmental story telling in DD, it's such a shame to see them do 3D character models and not really accomplish much with it. I don't actually think the story is that bad, and the Apollo Sanctum is pretty kickass. The Grave Eclipse and its consequences is genuinely horrifying. There's certainly good things in Dark Dawn, but to an avid fan like me it's overshadowed by a lot of weird little problems. I'm just worried that we're never going to get a GS4 and Camelot will be forced to slave away in the Mario Sports Mines.
You actually point out something I didn't really discuss and I REALLY should have. The consequences and setup of the Grave Eclipse is actually really neat. Exploring the world and having it all change around you with new and more powerful enemies scattered quite literally everywhere really makes the narrative and gameplay meld in a way that very few games ever manage to execute on. The largest reason I skipped over it mostly is because it happens SOOO close to the end that there really isn't a substantial consequence overall. It "should" have been a bigger deal but that's kind of how I feel about almost every plot point of Dark Dawn. It never really dives into anything fully so we never get a chance to be invested because by the time it shows up , it'll either be wrapped up soon or simply forgotten. Apollo Sanctum is great. I really should've shouted it's praises more because it's actually pretty interesting. I really hope you enjoyed the series. I have a couple things I'm still working on. Hoping to get a 2023 Retrospective of the whole year out in early January and have 1 Star Fox game to wrap up the mainline series, though there are actually WAY more I need to cover in that franchise but maybe another time. I can't guarantee I'll do it, but if you have any games you'd like to see covered I'm always excited to try new things and make something for people. I have loads of videos already planned but I find it really fun to make videos "for someone specifically" ya know? No promises but I'd love to hear from ya if you have any ideas :)
@@Zerbraxi You know what, it's funny we both are like "the Grave Eclipse and the Apollo Sanctum are so cool!" but they're both towards the end of the game (AS being the WAY end of the game). It's like Camelot was working on it and suddenly had some great, cohesive ideas, but they had made 70% of the game so they didn't want to go back and change it. In the same vein of "games you waited a long time for sequels for" Psychonauts and Psychonauts 2 fit in there. Psychonauts is my other favorite game besides GS, and I just adore it. Great platformer if you like platformers, creative, artistic, well-designed, all that.
As someone who really despises Dark Dawn, after having played the two first games to death, let me explain why it's not only a bad Golden Sun game, but also a bad sequel. See, the first game has a naive feel to it, with cookie cutter characters and a nothing scenario, but the gameplay is great, fast, compelling. It's highly enjoyable for its hidden treasures and hidden gameplay depth. You grow with the game as it shows you more complexity. The sequel, Lost Age, shows us a slightly darker scenario, more mature themes, like having to choose between two potentially dangerous outcomes, and gives us a huge world to let lost in; We're grown up. We can handle it. We beat the first game. The pacing in pretty incredible, and only only get more of what we liked, but we get PLENTY more. the sheer scale is incredible. Now, imagine what fans wanted from a third game. We wanted a sequel to Lost Age. More. A bigger world, a bigger scenario, better conflicts... we were shown the trend by Lost Age, and we wanted to follow it. We got Dark Dawn. A naive, childish game, small in scale, holding our hand the entire time, with one dimensional, uninteresting characters and a plot that didn't even know where it was going. That would have been bad enough. But Dark Dawn insults its fans by hiding most of the old cast, cutting the explorable world in half and limiting exploration with points of no return. Dark Dawn isn't only a bad sequel, it's the antithesis to everything Golden Sun stands for. It forgot what the first two games did, and makes mistakes THEY avoided. Yeah, the combat gets fun eventually, the music isn't that bad (even though I can't remember a single tune), but meager qualities can't make up for the sheer unfunness of it. My personnal grievance is the playable cast. My god are they bland! Like, really bland! Ok, the originals didn't have much to say, but they had... something. Now, each character is one anime trope that's been edulclorated to death. Mia's son is especially annoying. And Thelos just lore dumps on everyone all the time, and you can't even send him packing like in 2! The characters just LET everything happen TO them. They're not actors. they're not characters. They're just spell lists for the most part. Even attempts at personnal stories fail most of the time, except for Beast Girl and Eoleo. I know it's late after the video, but I hope I could share why this game is a blight on the good name of Golden Sun.
I do totally understand the frustration with Dark Dawn. I've been there myself with certain titles and some of it's shock and surprise reminds me a lot of the initial distaste for The Wind Waker. We wanted bigger, better, and more mature and what we got was arguably less in many ways and far more childish. I guess the big difference between Dark Dawn and Wind Waker is that WW is absolutely incredible and it's own merits far outshine the disappointment where as Dark Dawn still makes a ton of missteps and confusing trips along the way. I really do appreciate you for sharing your thoughts. While I personally think the game is actually pretty fine, I totally understand the disappointment and in many ways it's incredibly warranted.
Wow, love the video! Your energy is awesome. As someone whose intro to the series was Dark Dawn and loves it to death, it's always nice to see someone give a balanced analysis of all the pros and cons. I was lucky to experience it as my first RPG as a 10 year old because I didn't have any expectations riding on it. Now I can totally understand why people coming from the first two games and having that huge wait would find a lot of elements disappointing, especially the hand-holdy feel and the barely explained changes in the world. I am curious though, if you would be down to share, what are your opinions on characterization between DD and the original 2? The series as a whole isn't the strongest on the characters front, but similar to the nonsense music complaint (Dark Dawn's soundtrack is beautiful) I always feel like people who say the original cast is amazing while the new cast is boring are a little blinded by nostalgia. TLA has the strongest characters across the board, but imo DD does characters, individuality and dynamics WAY better than GS, which was so skimpy on that front that I found it kinda laughable at times. Did you find the cast of DD to be boring?? Or maybe just wasted potential?
Umm, I don't think a lot of the Golden Sun characters are all that exciting in terms of personality. There are some standouts for sure such as Ivan and Jenna to me. In general though, I don't think there's any actual substantive difference between Matthew and Isaac for example. The only real reason Felix is so much better than the other 2 is because we got a whole game where he wasn't silent before he become silent. For Dawn Dawn's characters in particular though, I think I'd have to say that I genuinely like Sveta and Amiti. The others are fine but they don't really bring much to the table over all. I think in general the characters are all written with the purpose of "having things happen to them" rather than "they are influencing the world."
You're very welcome and thank you so so much for watching! I'm glad the games are at least on NSO now. A new game or remaster though would make my whole year.
To be fair, you had it up against Legend of Dragoon. One of the best Final Fantasy games Square/SquareEnix never made. Unless someone absolutely *HATED* LoD with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns (which is physically imposable, see earlier praise), then of course it is going to edge out Dark Dawn.
Great, because as a diehard GS fan whose been waiting ages for a 4th installment, I despise the likes of you. Because of your trash reception, nintendo couldnt care less about funding another GS installment while we out here suffering
@@WeyardWiz I bought Dark Dawn at release. Played it, liked it. Sung it's praises for years. Once I realized GS4 wasn't coming, I went back to Dark Dawn and realized it was such a colossal misstep that it killed the franchise.
It's not that the music is BAD, it's just nowhere near the same level as the previous games. I would turn my GBA on just to hear that music; not so much with Dark Dawn. Honestly, the same goes for the whole game. Not great, not terrible, but not worth replaying.
While I was definitely a HUGE fan of the music, I think you're final line of the comment is exactly point on. Like, if I was to replay Golden Sun right now I would HAVE to follow it up with The Lost Age. No questions I would have to play both back to back. And then...I'd just skip Dark Dawn and move on to something else probably.
To be fair to Dark Dawn regarding new towns etc., it's mentioned by NPCs a few times in the other games there are other towns and cities, they just aren't visited by the parties because, you know, world saving quests and all. (Still mad we never got to visit the settlements on the other side of the Rift north of Prox) And regarding Alex, Kraden DOES lampshade the fact that the mask is hardly a disguise, and outright wonders if he's even trying to hide his identity. I think it was designed to be obvious to the players, but not the characters (who, aside from Kraden, have never met him and only heard stories). We also did have a single new summon, but yeah. Summons could've been better. I do agree with you that Dark Dawn is underrated, and a competent game, I think the issue is it's just not as good as the prior ones.
Yeah, I think its always awkward when you have a series that's only a few entries and 2 of them are absolutely incredible. I think the original Mass Effect trilogy is a victim of this with the 3rd game for a while. Dragon Age 2 is for example isn't anywhere nearly as bad as I would like to make it out to be, but its place compared to the others is odd. There are quite a few other series that have the same problem where 2 games are incredible and renowned by many, with a 3rd entry that is totally competent and a good experience, but being "good" seems to be a greater sin than being bad in terms of affection and remembrance. Long winded thoughts over.
@@Zerbraxi Agreed. I also think you're spot on with the DA and ME points. DS2 doesn't get as bad a rep since it was just the middle game between DAO and DAI, both of which were great (and the Corepheus DLC helped), whereas ME3 is panned because of 'CHOOSE YOUR COLOUR OF EXPLOSION!' which ended the series on a terrible note, with nothing to look forward to.
@@GoldenSunAlex It always tends to be a matter of genuine criticism is force multiplied by other factors such as surrounding titles being better, leading titles being better, or the wait time between releases.
i consider myself a giga fan of golden sun (played the original 2 games when they FIRST released on an actual GBA and fell in love at first sight) and i can say pretty definitely that the line between dark dawn being amazing and just.... okay is very thin. the ONLY thing that genuinely ruins the experience (thats kind of harsh the game isn't "ruined" per say at all) is the extremely baffling writing decisions they made. everythi9ng else in dark dawn i genuinely felt like was an upgrade over the previous two games. something genuinely just went horribly wrong when they were writing the scenario lol.
I know it's redundant to say since I made a whole video around this point I'm about to state but ya, I think the story is THE reason Dark Dawn stumbles. It just acts as this force amplifier for every misstep and because of that the flaws become horrific to some players. It's a shame, it really is, especially because I see the gameplay get beaten up for it by fans when I do think DD has really damn good mechanics.
Being the weakest of the three also is pretty easy when the first two games just completely blow the player away. i thought dark dawn was fine, playing it was fun
The first battle theme returns when you reach the Iced mountain (don't know the English name) where The Rya is located, so midway through the game not at the end.
@@Zerbraxi Yep but understandable the part right before the change is the dullest part of the game imo so it's understandable to not pay any attention to the music 🤣
Yeah I still think that Dark Dawn is the weakest of the three but I am also of the opinion that a lot of the narrative problems Dark Dawn has would be solved if you were playing as Sveta from the beginning, then bring in Matthew later in the game, with the Psynergy Vortexes being saved as a cliff hanger mystery that would build hype for a potential sequel.
Great job. Glad I found your channel. I just posted a Golden Sun vid and this became a recommendation. I agree with others in your comments section. Your channel is a gem!
@@Zerbraxi I got to play it with the official prima guide but even then I always felt like I had something to do even during down time in the story. Tho the points of no return still got little me relentlessly. Little me also really enjoyed doing the puzzles tho I also vaguely remember being forced to swap stuff for certain psynergies that I needed and then constantly having to swap back and forth.
Well, part of your wish came true with the release of Golden Sun 1 and 2 coming out to the Switch store. I still hope for a brand new Golden Sun for the Switch.
I haven't touched this game since forcing myself to beat it the first time when it was new, so I don't remember the fine details well. But I was very dissapointed, and I was hoping you were going to say it's very, indisputably, extremely, most assuredly... average. Anyway, I'm more of a gameplay oriented guy with my jrpgs, and while Golden sun, and dark dawn most of all have a very solid battle system for a ds jrpg, it's completely wasted because the game is too frickin' easy. You mention how the revive djinn are wasted cuz the game is too easy early on. I do NOT recall the early game being easy compared to the late game. In fact, I remember being able to basically win every battle using nothing but auto attack, bosses included. The ONLY 'hard' fight I remember was like the 2nd boss IIRC. I think it was the 2nd. It's the one against 3 generic enemy soldier mooks, and they were the hardest because they had an aoe paralyze flashbang attack or something, and your options in dealing with the status ailment were limited at that point in the game. Then the story is obviously stupid. I mean like you said, Isaac and Garet, but nobody else, despite everyone supposedly not aging, despite Isaac and Garet clearly aging, and other people missing even though they supposedly are related to the other cast, 'Arcanus', really? Like I really wanted to know what was going to happen with him after the 2nd game, but as soon as he appears and behaves and gets a stupid name like 'arcanus', I was like 'ohh... no...', and sure enough, they never redeem him whatsoever. ugh.. Also, the mind read thing, like you said, another element t hat makes this game objectively worse in both story and gameplay in a way the players should expect. The designer said he was worried that the fans need something new to interest them because they would age out of what worked before. But he literally kept so many things that were of no consequence that makes it cringe, and he got rid of the timeless cool things like mind reading, the REST of the cast, despite, you know, making an excuse why they SHOULD still be around (and having some be still around, including Garret, which.. I mean, why Garret. Does ANYONE like Garret?! He's like the annoying sidekick who thinks he's cooler than he is and just makes you want to tell him to shut-up every time he bothers to talk. That said, this game didn't disappoint me half as much as the Lufia DS disasterpiece (how is that game highly rated now? how? I can forgive it if it tried to change genres, but it butchered the original story, cut it to like 1/3rd in length, failed to add anything new, still makes me dying to know who the heck that first sinistral is in the opening of 2 (I forget his name)... all of that. God @%#%@% That game makes me mad.
I love how reading this comment goes from interesting criticism of Golden Sun into a mad frenzy of a completely unrelated game at the end LOL. It seems like everyone just has that one game that just derails your train of thought because it just pisses you off after all these years and the disappointment just sits and festers. Just poking fun because reading it reminds me of how often I do the exact same thing LOL. I've not touched ANY of the Lufia games really. It's a series I want to try and get into but there are some other JRPG's I also wanna hit like Suikoden and Phantasy Star.
@@Zerbraxi its because they were both released at approximately similar times (in proportion to the wait) on the DS. And both were decidedly NOT worth the wait. My DS library isnt even that big. Like 10 games, 3 being etrian odyssey, and 2 being those 2 games lol. So I tend to see both of those darm boxes together. Grrr =p.
Thank you. I totaly agree with you. Dark Dawn might not be a hidden gem, but it does not deserve the hate it got. I feel like the main issue is its pacing of story telling. The idea of "We want to investigate, but first we need to gather ingredients. Oh we get side tracked by psynergie vortexes and suddenly the grave eclipse happens and holy cow umbra adepts?" is a good one, but the game spents to much on working to the final point. Maybe if we had GS 3 and 4 in a bundle, it would make way more sense. I mean to a certain degree the same formular is what worked in the Lost Age. For a huge part of the game you walk around and try to find your way through the western sea. I love Dark Dawn for many inclusions and creative new things like the improved psynergie and weapon system. What bums me out the most is the difficulty and the dungeons. I feel like most dungeons are super interesting but too short. Ourobos suffers the most from it. Its hyped up to be such an amazing labyrinth and then done in like 10 min. Also the bosses feel like they die as soon as the first 4 Djinn summon hits. But what I suprisingly feel takes a lot of the fun in gameplay what I discovered is that characters re-target if the original target dies. The first games had like this strategic aspect of having to plan your moves, get an understanding of how bulky certain enemies are to not lose turns and in Dark Dawn you can just spam attacks.
I can't remember if I specifically called this out in the video, but the fact that the party members retarget upon enemy death makes the combat feel so much smoother. I totally agree with you! It would appear that a surprising amount of people actually have a more nuanced take on Dark Dawn than I originally expected. I'm kinda glad because I can't fully understand the hate, but I do understand the disappointment in a lot of ways. Though there's still a whole lot to enjoy here.
@@Zerbraxi yes smoother, but also takes away a lot of planning during combat, which i personally liked a lot about the old game. At a certain level of being ahead in Dark Dawn you can just spam attacks and not think anymore which really increases the amout ramdom encounters annoyed me. Totaly. I feel like its main problem is that its not a "bad game" but a "bad golden sun game". Expectations were just way to high from most players and we needed to go in there with a much more open mind.
I would absolutely be willing to cover those games. I've been an on and off Castlevania fan and one of the biggest blind spots are the GBA games. I've only ever played Circle of the Moon very briefly and that's it for the GBA titles. I'd love to play and cover them sometime. I honestly don't know when I would be able to, but I added them as a series to do and could be fun. For me, I "mostly" play Nintendo games for this channel, but in general, I'm down to play pretty much anything :)
I've been recommended this video by TH-cam, so excuse me for discovering it only now. My own gripe about Dark Dawn is mostly about the starting point of the adventure. The first game had you immediately on your epic quest to save the world, and the second game put that on its head, which was rather clever. But the whole reason why Matthew, Tyrell and Karis are going out in the world is because Tyrell is a freakin' dunce. You stumble upon your own epic quest almost by accident - and in a first blind playthrough, it also means you get locked out of a ton of nice stuff without knowing _why_ (or that it _existed_ at all in the first place). That said, there are a lot of points I made peace with since. I'm not saying that Dark Dawn had to happen - I think it would have been better if the game had instead been given more time and was released on the 3DS instead of among the last games to release on the DS ever. Maybe then it would have been possible to address those shortcomings. Maybe it would have been different - radically so. And maybe it would have not left us hanging on for so long. But _I'm_ saying that as a point of entry, Dark Dawn _works._ If this is the first Golden Sun game you play, the extended tutorializing is okay, if a bit long. But if Pokémon gets to do it in its seventh generation, why would it not be good for a game series admittedly more complex? The atmosphere and ambiance is still there. It's just a bit more riddled with plot holes than the other two games, but it's also way more intuitive. The way the game made use of the touch screen is nice. Sure, Matthew has to compete with his own father for blandest protagonist ever, but at least the rest of the cast gets to shine a little bit more? Overall, I think most of the heavy feelings comes from what was missed. Without Mind Read, the world feels... less full. Without a way to go back on your tracks, you don't get to see how most of the location you visit evolve, if at all. Many returning characters are teased and then never seen on screen, my personal gripe being _Piers_ moreso than Jenna; the game pretty much telling you that most of the north-western part of Angara is locked out by the time you reach Border Town, and not being peculiarly subtle about that either. Combat-wise, for all the new and shiny unlocks linked to your weapons, Psynergy feels almost like even more of an afterthought than before, especially if you do prepare a minimum after being dropped to 0 MP in the first 'real' Bad Guy Encounter. The fact you have all your 'elemental' psynergy locked to the Adept rather than the class is not much of a selling point to me either, especially considering the number of equippable items that simply _grants you_ full psynergy series usable in combat rather than simply the one variant you need for a few puzzles. And finally, the experience curve is also much smoother, so much so that by the time you get your last member, chances are she'll be a good 10 to 15 levels behind, which does not a good integration make. So to me it's more of a "Meh" kind of game. It's okay if you want to delve into the world with fresher graphics and a somewhat lighter storyline; if you want to experiment with different playstyles and new Djinnis, or if you've never played another Golden Sun game before. It's a lot more horrible if you like tighter storylines, if you love exploring (which, as a Lost Age stan, comes with the territory), or if you had higher expectations based on your previous experience with the saga.
There's a specific line in your comment that really stands out. "I'm not saying that Dark Dawn had to happen...". It might not have HAD to happen, but as more and more time has gone on, I actually think it was very 'bound' to happen given when it released. I think the over tutorialization is horrendous, regardless of if you played any of the series before-hand. You make mention of Pokemon and, quite honestly, that series is a prime example of how you don't need to tutorial literally everything, but has awkwardly decided to increase stopping the player and over-informing them as years have gone on. Dark Dawn is a weird victim of "we need to make another" and "the time it came out". It did release during a period where gaming was VERY much over explaining everything. Where complexity was seen almost as taboo. Where accessibility was ill-defined and bastardized as a way to remove trust in the player and instead force experiences into pre-defined theme park adventures. That all needed to happen to the industry in order to realize the flaw in it. The failure of overcompensating so to speak. Dark Dawn appears to be a victim of that. Agreed though. It's "meh". I don't hate it, and I'm actually glad I played it, but if I return to play the series ever I'll definitely skip this one.
I love gsdd. It's one of my main comfort games that I come back to replay over and over. Admittedly, I never played the first two because I never had a game boy, so I don't have any frame a reference for how it compares to those, but as a game in it's own right, it's easily in my top five of ALL games. I would kill for either a new game on modern technology or a reboot.
It's kinda nice seeing the opposite, more loving side of this game. I get why some people have harsh feelings towards it, but I also just kinda enjoyed it quite honestly. Anything new Golden Sun related would put me over the moon so YES PLEASE!
Great analysis! ..while I do want a new GS, I’m not sure if I’d want a “4” that continues the story of dark dawn since I didn’t feel that that story did justice to the setup of the original duo. I’d either like another pass at 3, or for them to just do something new.
I think their best bet would also be to leave the current characters and the Warriors of Vale. Go a few generations down so we can see what the true extent of the Golden Sun's effect is.
Its people like you who I despise the most in this fabdom. Thanks for encouraging Nintendo never to give a flying crap about loyal fans like myself who just want to play 1 final golden sun, whether it be DD sequel or Not!
@@WeyardWiz Well goodness, tell me how you really feel! For what it’s worth, I consider myself a pretty big fan, though maybe less loyal than yourself, depending what you mean therein.
@@darkisatari Don't worry, I got the same response for not liking DD. We all know TRUE fans are the elitist gatekeepers who blame the rest of the fandom.
Thank you so much for continuing this saga! Have a good day ☀️ (btw i feel the long drawn out explaining is a general modern nintendo problem tbh, somehow their demographic generally being kids/family they think kids aren't smart. They are, just inexperienced.)
Thank you so much for watching! I'll definitely return to Golden Sun at some point in the future. I'd love to still touch on a load of things I had to leave out of these videos. It'll probably be a bit away realistically though. I think you're totally correct on the drawn out explaining bit. It's always interesting to me that children in the 80's and 90's were able to "apparently" do the impossible while children today are expected to be completely incapable of critical thought. I'm being a bit dramatic for sure, but that's always how the perception feels. It's almost like a ton of designers just forgot how damn smart kids are.
It really feels like the story was supposed to take place like... 150-200 years after the original games. The old cast could have still been around because of the Golden Sun event and we just follow thier grand or great grand kids. Could make the whole outliving their children a tangible story beat... that could then be foisted on the new cast as well because of what happens during the grave eclipse. The only real sticking points are Elio, (but he also could have just been a descendant or a random pirate claiming to be one,) and Himi, who could have also just been a decendant of Kusharna Theres also a pretty good argument to be made that the cast is just too big for a first game. Especially with the fact that the points of no return never leave, making the post game feel really lacking compared to lost age. Himi doesnt really get a chance to shine despite being cool to use in combat and somewhat interesting from a story standpoint. Amiti and Sveta are much more interesting from a character standpoint than really any of the first four... I feel like there's a decent case to make sliming the cast to 6 or even four... if it were a cast of six, Sveta and Amiti could have been Umbra and Sol adepts..... with Mathew as a mars(making him more like Jenna), Karis as wind (with a more offensive focus, kinda like Sveta in the actual game), Himi as venus, and Elio as a mercury, maybe teasing at a Peirs connection, or him claimbing one as a brag. Despite me being a die-hard fan who loves the characters of the original two, i can see where people are coming from when calling the characters and writing of the first game simplistic. (You're meant to recontectualize all that with the second game but w/e). The original two had two whole games to develop the cast of 8 where DD tries to do it in one... I will say I do like the characterization of Isaac in DD. Him being the kinda guy who wants to stay in a remote area "keeping watch" and training, while being the kind of father who's eager to push Mathew and Tyrell on a journey does a lot for both his characterization and Mathew's. Still wish Felix and the lost age crew would have shown up :< Also i think the points of no return are more likely to blindside players because of the whole Rockfeather quest. It feels like the kind of thing that should get resolved in the first 5 hours of a game... and i remember when i played DD for the first time i kept thinking like... "well, ill just keep playing until this little side thing is done", and it spured me to pass a few of the points before I might have if the narrative was more like "well, we dont really know what to do, so take some time and investigate" which as a pretty big thing in the first two. Hey wait.... do the points of no return and getting mind read so late happen because they didnt want to write all that extra dialogue???? It kills me because mindread is such a fun and crucial feature to what i think is the core appeal of the first two games. The disapointment does sting and fester, but this video does make me think i should give it another shot... a lot of the problems and shortcomings feel like they are meant to be tackled in a second game. Much like playing the first game without playing the lost age.... its just sad because i remember every GS fan i knew at the time purchased the game day one and were even like "guys! Lets not criticize too harshly because they might not make another one!" So i think a lot of the fandom's resentment simmered and was pushed onto DD.... but yeah... maybe someday... GS4... itts not impossible 🥲 (I also hope for a legend of dragoon remake or sequal 😢)
This was a wonderful read. It means a lot that my video would have someone consider giving a game another chance. That's so heartwarming. There HAS to be another Legend of Dragoon game of some kind... right?
as a player that only played dark dawn, cause i didn't even knew that prequel golden sun titels existed, for me dark dawn was really enjoyable. i loved so much i really want a sequel. And yes im planing to play the other golden sun titels, but that will happen after i see a next golden sun titel. so that i can play from the start to finish (revisiting dark dawn yet again) what i didn't like in dark dawn is that it felt unfinished and i didn't like that bug that made you run on water to explore the world. plus the whole dark continent that was inaccessible.
maybe with Golden Sun 4, we might get all three parties from all the games, AND maybe another set of four party members. 20 plus characters might be overkill, but the lingering threat of the Psnyergy Vortexes, and what else remains unknown. Maybe there is still lingering after effects of Apollo Tower's activation that needs looking into. Maybe the activation of Apollo Tower also uncovered some sort of new dungeon somewhere in the world. And there is still the question of Alex. Will he ever become playable? Will there be some sort of other threat that crops up that needs looking into? So many questions remain, so here's to hoping that something comes of the recent reacativation of the Golden Sun trademark.
I think a massive party could be a fun idea. I played the original Suikoden a couple years ago and they pulled it off pretty well so the concept can definitely work.
I think my top 3 favorite tracks are probably 1 from each game. Venus Lighthouse from the original, the Boat Battle Theme from TLA, and the Isaac & Garret Party Battle theme in Dark Dawn. Not sure I'd fully commit to saying those are my 3 favorite, but that's my current state of thought. The Golden Sun music is so damn good. I enjoy so much of Sakuraba's work in general but I especially love what he did with these 3 games.
DD is a perfectly alright acceptable average JRPG game, but a sad lame excuse for a GS game. My reasoning, most characters were completely vapid, which is a very common problem with children of established heroes being constantly under their shadows, but that wasn't the only problem, we just have to accept and understand those children as they are just because how their parents were, which is BS. There was no emotional bond with most, no backstory, I say most because I loved Eoleo, Sveta and Himi better than children of the OG. And then the build up, they did it so damn much which was unnecessary because they failed miserably to wrap up. I would have accepted much less build up with a better wrapping. Once you start paying attention finally, the game ends abruptly, shadow part of the game was grim and miserable, which I don't mind in general, they probably tried to make a more mature story, but it wasn't mature in nature, it felt rushed and lack of well put thought. In my opinion, most fans felt like falling down from a great height or at least that's how I felt.
You make a great point about the kids. All of the children of original characters are incredibly weak, but the new characters get the development they actually need in order to be introduced as protagonists and it shows because those new characters are substantially better than the kids.
@@Zerbraxi I don't mind cliche either, after all we are talking about JRPGs, saving the world from inevitable destruction, but a lot of things don't make sense, like all the children of Vale took the one child policy from the CCP regime!! I mean Garet had a younger sister and brother, it felt like they planned about this game accordingly and had children for the plot. Lot of things didn't even feel natural, The only reason they blocked off Mind read psynergy for this long that I can think of was because of laziness, they didn't want to write extra lines for those characters. Which is also probably why they didn't include other OG characters and extra children. But why then they had to add those absurd stories that I think most players don't even remember!! Because I remember every single event from both GBA GS games. If anything, it wasn't a memorable experience at all.
"It's not actually all that innovative" while it has the most complex rpg mechanics known to men to this day. Bet he didn't even know you can change classes or how.
I didn't know how to change classes as a kid, but I know how to do them now as an adult. But, for most complex rpg mechanics ever....look I've grown more and more in love with the series, especially after doing this series. The Lost Age especially has gone from a game I skipped years ago, to one of my favorite JRPGs ever. But....most complex rpg mechanics known to man...no way. Dark Dawn is an interesting iteration on the Golden Sun series but all of the innovation happened in the first game. It was complex for handheld rpgs of its time, but other, more complex games already existed then. I'm confused though because something being more iterative rather than innovative isn't necessarily a negative so I'm surprised people take it as such.
@@Zerbraxi i was reefing to the og series. Not dark dawn. And I was just correcting you because you said it didn't stray too far from the norm. Meanwhile the og two games have so many mechanics running on the background that are insane. Just a lot of people do not use them or even know they exist so it looks pretty basic to them, when it is far far from normal rpg fanfare
@ubm91 the originals innovation though mostly stems from simplifying pre-existing ideas that existed in the genre for decades. That is without a doubt it's greatest strength and there's a twisted view that simplicity is bad and thus people often fight to defend it, claiming insane complexity, when the contrary is the primary reason for its success.
I got Golden Sun Dark Dawn about a year after it came out. That was about six or seven years ago lol and I have hardly touched it. I need to go back and beat all three in one sitting however part of me wishes camelot would have worked on localizing shining Force 3 instead of dark Dawn. They tried too hard to make dark dawn appease a new generation of Golden Sun players while still having fan service put in for returning players. And unfortunately it shows.
Shining Force 3 scenario 1 is at least localized. I know it's not perfect but fan patches for scenario 2 and 3 do exist so that's cool. I really need to cover Shining Force at some point. It doesn't get talked about nearly as some other SRPGs.
@@Zerbraxi woah you replied lol. Yeah I've been playing the SF3 translation patches and really enjoying them. Enjoyed your Golden Sun vids bro, keep up the great work! Earned a sub, bud.
I have not!! Though the Shining Series is something I've always craved playing after watching TotalBiscuits let's play of Shining Force 3 many years ago. I think I'd love that series
@@Zerbraxi the series was so good when it was still being developed by Camelot/SSP/etc, and StHA in particular plays like a first-person proto-Golden Sun dungeon crawler.
If i had one wish for the next golden sun game, it'd be this: Let me use all available characters in combat. at the same time. I never liked having access to eight or more different characters, but only four of them ever being utilized at any given moment. What i'd like to see is two rows of four, four in the front, and four in the back. The four in the front could be your primarily melee characters, like Matthew, Tyrell, Eoleo, and Sveta. They all play normally. The back four however could be your primarily spellcasters and ranged-attackers, like Rief, Karis, Himi, and Amiti. These characters can not use their basic "attack" abilities unless they have a bow or other ranged weapon equipped, but can still use psynergy freely. The thing is that the front four basically act as guards for the back four. so an enemy can't attack Himi with a melee attack unless Tyrell, Eoleo, or Sveta are downed. Though they could still be damaged by AOE attacks and psynergy. You can also swap your characters from front to back or side to side at any time, so if Matthew is low on health, you can swap him with any of the back four characters so he can be more defended while healing and re-buffing. This way all your characters are available in combat, and enemy forces can be larger and more challenging as well. as it is, i almost never use mage-type adepts because the melee-type ones just have higher health, armour, and attack. This way the mages could be properly utilized without risk of being downed on the first enemy turn.
This is a really interesting system proposal. Honestly it sounds like it could get incredibly complex and allow for a ton of customization. Neat idea for sure!!
Great retrospective, thanks for making it. I wonder what you would think of Beyond The Beyond, the previous Camelot RPG on PS1 that supposedly started their whole "the villains are a man and woman duo that you have to chase around" trope and I've heard at least one person say it's the worst JRPG ever made.
I just asked a buddy about this game after reading this comment because I remember him mentioning he's played it. His response was, "oh ya it's BAD!" LOL. I would definitely want to try it though, if for no other reason than to play through more of Camelot's log. Thanks for mentioning it!
2:24 I know it’s a Zelda game, but to this day the only Zelda game that sold worse than Minish cap is Spirit tracks. Which is a shame since both are great >.
Did he not dive into the djinn class complicity in Golden Sun? I'm confused by the comment it wasn't innovative. The puzzles they were also able to put in that game seemed more complex them most games before and around that time.
I'm pretty sure I did mention the Djinn class system, or maybe that was in my Lost Age video. 🤔 I love the Djinn system! For the puzzles, I'm still glad that the Psynergy usage was simplified in Dark Dawn but the jump in puzzles was nothing compared to The Lost Age. Maybe I just played too many other games at the time that I found the Dark Dawn puzzles to be...fine.
@@killtac9978 Oh gotcha! Yeah, in more broad terms Golden Sun really isn't all that innovative. It definitely has some unique elements, Djinn specifically for example, but having a flexible class system in and of itself really isn't all that innovative by 2001. Final Fantasy had already done it twice by this point and Dragon Quest had developed a complex class system multiple times prior to Golden Sun's release as well. In fact, the lack of large innovation allowed Camelot to hyper focus on expanding and perfecting the rough edges of JRPG's at the time, and that approach clearly worked out wonderfully for them. A "lack of innovation" is hardly a negative. The same can be said to companies like Blizzard who built up their early library to a legendary status through iteration rather than innovation. Rareware is another that borrowed ideas and perfected them rather than creating new ones. It might've been too broad of a statement about the original game, but I just didn't want to extrapolate out an entire 10 or so minutes regarding my feelings of how to definite innovation in a genre so complex as JRPG's. It's not to say Golden Sun never does anything new at all, but rather it's core strength wasn't that it added depth or complexity to JRPG's, but rather that it simplified and drilled down into the purest essence of the genre and that helped make it approachable for so many who may have never dipped their tow into it before. I hope that clarifies the point a bit more.
Enjoyed the video! Might start playing Golden Sun 1 from next year! I actually enjoyed Dark Dawn. Didn't really like the points of no return. Also did anyone think of what a 3DS installment would have been like? I can only dream! Imagine what the gameplay would have been like on the main screen! I feel like that was a missed opportunity for a great game that would have sold well! It's all about sales at the end of the day. Dark Dawn arrived late in the DS cycle if I'm not wrong. Looking forward to Golden Sun 4 for Switch or Switch 2.
Considering how well JRPG's like Bravely Default, Fire Emblem, and Radiant Historia sold I think Golden Sun would've had a good chance. However, it's impossible to deny that Dark Dawn had a pretty negative impact at the time and perhaps all of this passed space between it's release and now is the "healing" that fans needed to be excited once again.
@@Zerbraxi yes you're right. Remember that Dark Dawn arrived late in the DS cycle. So people were getting excited about 3DS. Also the saturation of all the JRPGs. If they release a new one, they need to be confident that it'll make them some cash.
Funny you say the first boss music is great I saw years ago another review where there was a comment while that tune was playing: Oh God Sakuraba why????😂 I think it's so interesting how people like different things!
There's a lot to criticize with the gameplay, but given how much of it is borrowed from TLA, it really just can't be bad in its own right, even with points of no return. I agree with your main conceit that the story is what holds it back. And god, if i had to sum up what makes the story bad, it would be "sequel bait". Dark Dawn is too busy telling you "hey, look at the other cool stuff in this world! You might get to do that some day!" to actually let you interact with anything you care about, either from the past games or that seems cool. Both the GBA games have problems with just deciding they aren't interested in addressing something they should, but they ultimately answer most questions they raise. Dark Dawn didn't answer a single interesting question it raised or answer a single question raised by the previous two games
Yeah, I think you're on to something here. TLA especially gets distracted at times, but it's opening thesis, the final 2 lighthouses, is eventually solved and answered. Dark Dawn's primary narrative is hard to even quantify because I'm not sure which is the main quest due to how much back and forth there is with it's focus.
Thank you for being honest and I agree, Dark Dawn is a good game. It wasn't perfect but did it's best for the fans. No real complaints here, just play it and enjoy it for what it's worth. No negativity.
I do sympathize with players who have an aggressive hatred for it. I've had those feelings towards games in franchises I've loved but I just don't see Dark Dawn as anywhere near as bad as people have made it out to be. The gameplay especially is outstanding.
I hope to see the Golden Sun again sometime in my lifetime
Have faith!!
I gave up hope
I loved this game, and I dont know if i remember correctly, but one of the BIGGEST issues i had was the points of no return, specifically the last one, because i feel like it had so little to actually explore in that area.
The points of no return seem to be the largest impact on so many people. Considering how critical Djinn collecting is in this series, it's such an add choice to have these points dropped throughout the game.
Thank you! This series truly rewarded your completionist kick and trained you enough to expect that design atmosphere they ultimately disrupted in Dark Dawn.
Additionally, part of my issue here is this installment failed to age alongside the humongous community that sought to embrace this new installment and revitalize the franchise. Actually, I'd argue that the maturity of Dark Dawn not only failed to parallel the age of its loyal audience, but it regressed compared to Golden Sun and Golden Sun: The Lost Age - not to mention the designers' choice to contradict known information of pre-established installments that is grounded in lore (e.g. known population centers in already explored landmasses, the significance to Quality of Life intrinsic to Alchemy, etc.) while remaining faithful to peripheries that aren't (e.g. summons, djinni, etc).
It makes me genuinely want to be a Creative Director or Story Designer for Golden Sun 4 (challenge impossible) or be a lead in another RPG project.
That said, I genuinely enjoyed the game. lmfao
This channel is a hidden gem of the video game retrospective.
I always appreciate such kind words but still am always shocked that people feel this way. Thank you so much.
The Multiple 'Points of no Return' is what I didn't like. I like to re-explore areas after a while. Also the Cliffhanger Ending and the fact that we only get to see Isaac and Garet. I wanted to see what the other 6 are like now.
Ya there's a lot to be desired about those choices. I don't particularly like points of no return in general unless they are incredibly substantial like the Pre-Searing in Guild Wars or the falling of the plate in FF7.
Thank you for your video. I never quite understood why people hate dark dawn so much. Now, thanks to you, I understand better. But, honestly, overall it is a good game and everyone should try it. You said it, Camelot waited too long to release the 3rd entry in the franchise. I am someone who played the first two games when it came out on the gba. When I played dark dawn for the first time I had quit video games because I was too busy with college. I discovered randomly in a store that there was in fact a third golden sun game on the DS and I had no idea. I bought a ds just to play the game. And I enjoyed it a lot. I was so happy to have another golden sun to play. Since then, i never stopped playing video games. So, for me, dark dawn is the game which made me fall in love with video games again and It will always have a special place in my heart.
Thanks again for your video.
I love this story. It seems like everyone has this game that makes them fall in love with the hobby all over again. For me it seems to happen every 5-7 years ish where a game just comes in a sweeps me off my feet in a way that I can't explain that ignites a passion for gaming even more fervent than I had prior. It's always awesome to hear of others same experience.
You're very, very welcome for the video. Thank you so much for taking time out of your day to watch it!
I loved the Garoh segment of the game of Lost Age. So imagine my disappointment when the long-awaited third game came out with a Jupiter adept with lycanthropy and she has no connection with Garoh.
Ya it's so strange. The Garoh segment is absolutely phenomenal and it's a real shame that it seems to have just simply come and gone.
I honestly didn’t mind Dark Dawn, I just wished they didn’t end with the cliffhanger
The cliffhanger was definitely a mistake. I really wish they would've just committed to that story all thr way through because it was honestly good enough of a setup on its own.
Ok, everything positive you said is 100% true, BUT coming from 2 games where you literally exploded the whole world, to see cities and races that “existed for thousands of years” (as you said), new alchemy machines supposedly buried over a mountain that you even explored in the past games, a giant world changing monstrosity that just so happened to be spared being forever flooded and destroyed by the sea following the mutation of the land, the fact that, yes, you just casually find out that you can’t go back for no reason and be prevented to catch a slipped word (that happened to me, a word that only an npc say in a dialogue, i think it was “biblin”, lost forever) or face the ultimate boss and unlock the single best summon of the whole franchise.. it was bad.
Then add the completely forgotten main quest and the 7 YEARS WAIT, you can see why the fan were pissed
Edit: i know you already pointed out all of what i wrote, but the 7 years of waiting really made everything worst imo, and for real.. why doesn’t it have a real plot? Like “oh, the world has this under this threat, but let’s ignore it for this other thing happening, and then remind everyone at the end!” It was really poorly planned, and they had 7 years to plan it!
I clearly don't have the same frustration for Golden Sun in particular, but I totally get this same anger in frustration with other releases over the years. Considering just how well crafted the first two games are it felt so weird to have to constantly go back and forth between praise and criticism in this video. It's just something the first 2 games don't warrant but Dark Dawn is a mess. It truly is.
If the series ever reboots again I can only hope they've learned a lot. Though perhaps since so many fans have just accepted its never happening, perhaps if the 4th game is just better than Dark Dawn that would be enough.
from what i understand, the Beastmen in Dark Dawn are NOT the same beastmen as the ones in Lost Age. Maybe some of them are, but not all of them.
Dark Dawn Beastmen are a very new race, basically the golden sun event caused some humans to become more beastlike, and some animals to become more humanlike, creating a race of beastmen.
So that squirrel-man you see playing the trumpet? I'm pretty sure he used to be an everyday mundane squirrel.
Is it weird that they built up a culture and society in 30 years? Yes, but it's not entirely unheard of, 30 years is still a long time.
Ya they definitely seem to be a new race. My surprise is definitely that they have an entirely new empire, kingdom, culture , and a royal lineage in but a few decades.
@@Zerbraxi two best guesses are either
1. You find yourself very different from everyone else in the world with a few others like you. may as well do SOMETHING to distinguish yourself, so just start working stuff out quickly.
or 2. maybe it's a "live fast die young" situation, where they die of old age at like, ten years old or something, so more generations have passed then for humans.
30 years is still a pretty good length of time, i could at least see them building up that city in that span of time with the help of psynergy and the like.
Wow, I got this video recommended on my feed and I am shocked by how underrated this channel is - this was a fantastic retrospective.
Yay!!! Thank you so much for clicking and watching. I'm glad you enjoyed.
Thanks for the video. I feel like no one has touched Dark Dawn to give it a good eloquent retrospective on the game. Thanks again! Subbed hard
That means a lot to me. I'm glad you liked it. I hope you also end up enjoying what's to come!
As a long time Golden Sun fan, bravo on these videos!! I wanted to say I felt exactly the same way you did about the Psynergy Vortex story being dropped, and I too had forgotten about them before the cliffhanger. But I suspect that is actually NOT an oversight and was done on purpose, which we would have learned about had Golden Sun 4 ever been made. Of course, there's no way to know, but my guess is that Alex was behind the vortexes to try to eliminate Isaac, and more importantly, finally depower and beat The Wise One who had always seemed a step ahead of him. Thus, when your party gets too close to studying them, the rest of the game develops. I mean, I've always wondered what Alex got working with the dark clan folks and routinely it seems he actually is rooting for you to win against them even though he positions himself as their ally. I think he just needed more time and used them, which is where the 4th game might have gone and FINALLY given us our chance to fight Alex once and for all. I mean the guy is the big bad in many ways here but we have not once faced him! Anyways, I've had that thought locked away for years so glad I found a video to throw it all out, I hope my like of your video is sufficient apology for dumping all of this on your comments!
No need to apologize at all! I love these discussions. Just chatting about games is the primary reason I make these videos and my favorite part really is getting the ability to get other peoples thoughts and opinions in the comments. I've always enjoyed that feeling where everyone is on the couch and hours go by as your just talking about games, or the same in a voice chat.
You have any interesting idea there. I think more and more that Camelot was attempting to do the exact same thig with Dark Dawn as they did with the original 2 where we'd have a duology of releases. Perhaps it really is just a matter of that we never got the second half. I don't envy Camelot if they were to bring back Golden Sun now because if you continued the story of the vortexes you'd really have to recap a lot for any newcomers to the franchise since the story would be taking place directly in the middle of an already active plot. Doing that gracefully will be quite the challenge.
It's funny you mention Alex and us not facing him. I had a note in Dark Dawn doc specifically that said, hold on, I'll just copy and paste it here: This final boss is cool and all but we've done this exact same thing in The Lost Age. It's a little emotional, but we've been here. How much better could this have been if Alex was waiting for us at the top of the tower and he was our final roadblock? How much better could this have been if he was training himself in Sol Magic and using the Umbra Clan to gain their power as well? Imagine if the Golden Sun event caused Alex to be able to cross adept and utilize multiple psynergy types without the need of Djinn? This Chaos Chimera is a good boss, but I can't help but immediately come up with better ideas like Alex being the final boss with him wielding all variations of Mercury, Sol, and Umbra magic.
It's an idea that I left out of the video mostly to try and keep it under an hour long lol, but I also am anticipating that at SOME point Alex HAS to be our "final boss" so to speak. Now I guess I owe you an apology for dumping this into the comments haha!
@@Zerbraxi I agree, and especially with Golden Sun I feel there aren't enough opportunities to talk about this franchise, as sadly it seems to be back burnered hard right now. Who knows, though, with the first going on the GBA service for the Switch there is hope again perhaps! I think if they did want to make a Golden Sun 4, they would have to do some kind of re-release to acquaint people with the story, and I always thought a Live-a-Live/Octopath Traveler style would go well. That said, I'm not sure it's impossible, as Metroid Dread just up and picked up after almost two decades to continue Samus's story, so there is a possibility of it working.
I definitely think the developers were going for another two-part saga with Dark Dawn and whatever the fourth game would have been, though the decision to bring 8 party members right away in Golden Sun Dark Dawn would have complicated that, as what, we'd have 16 members in the end? Either way, I think that would have explained a lot, including the cliffhanger and the absence of figures like Jenna, Felix, Piers, and Sheba, all of whom featured way more prominently in Lost Age and would likely have been the focuses of the second half of this new series, as well. Since Nintendo and Camelot don't seem eager to resolve Dark Dawn's cliffhanger, I've always created my own lore to fill in the gaps until we hear a more official story. To me, I always envisioned Felix's daughter being the leader of the fourth game (perhaps, Sheba's daughter too???). We then get some other children of first game figures and maybe even returning party members from Dark Dawn who join up on the new quest later in the game. A bunch of in-game shenanigans would take place, but it would end with the realization that the Wise One was originally a superweapon of sorts crafted by the light tribe (the one who built the tower at the end of Dark Dawn) during the time that Alchemy was still unsealed as a way to take out the dark tribe in a war between them. However, the Wise One realized that this kind of power wasn't safe in their hands either, so after the dark ones were beaten, the Wise One was the one who sealed away Alchemy. This would explain the light tribe's absence from the game, and explain why it tasked Isaac & Co from the first game to try to block Saturos and Menardi from unleashing Alchemy and why it confronted you at Mars Lighthouse in The Lost Age for deciding to be the ones to break the seal. Alex, who was deprived of his godhood by the Wise One and Isaac, wanted to take back what was his, so he sought out the Dark Clan to find a way to try to figure out how he could challenge the Wise One, and that explains the supermassive Psynergy vortex at Mt. Aleph and why Isaac in Dark Dawn says that he feels as though the Wise One is pleading with him for help and why he chose to go to Mt. Aleph after Matthew & Co. left on their adventure. In the end, Alex would have been the final boss, and a living embodiment of the very abuse of power that the Wise One had initially feared when sealing the power away in the first place. Maybe one day, we'll find out the real ending though...
Ya know, maybe I AM just overthinking them releasing Golden Sun 4. Your point about Dread is dead on. That had a left over story from Fusion and they just picked up like the gap between Fusion and Dread never happened.
It would have been cooler if they'd reversed things and had you play as the mars adept duo this time.
Like, maybe they were gonna be the next Agatio and Karst if they failed and they didn't run out of time, but then the world was saved and they're just...left behind. So they go poke around the Mars Lighthouse and discover some new terrible thing that's gonna happen(Maybe rather than slowly regrowing, Weyard's lost pieces are rocketing in at high speeds and shaking everything to pieces!), and they need to go find the old Heroes to save the day again.
Except, y'know, Prox has spent the last fifteen years making LITERALLY EVERYONE hate them, so you've gotta spend a lot of time sneaking around and redeeming your village! You could meet an outcast beast person who wants to find the Heroes because of the rumors they know of a town of beast people! Heck, make the whole plot about outcasts and redemption!
Oh well. I guess random black holes appearing everywhere is...cool.
This is a REALLY cool idea. This would also fit the "trope" of Golden Sun having you play as the opposite perspective as well. Honestly though, basically anything would've been a better plot than the psynergy suckers we got.
Thank you for mentioning Etrian Odyssey 3. There may not be many of us fans but what we do have is a lot of passion for this series.
It's a series I've only barely dipped my toe into but it is really cool and I might jump deeper into it with the remaster collection.
41:00 it's not like Kiara actively says that she is glad not to have inherited her fathers curse in being able to read minds, which she even says that Ivan told her he saw it as curse and that she should be thankfull about not having it Even Seveta wishes she didn't have it.
My complaint here isn't that the characters had it and didn't want it. Honestly, that actually would've been an incredibly interesting angle if Kiara could do it but is more vocally against it rather than how Ivan said little about it in the original and TLA.
However, as a gameplay mechanic it's one of the most unique and fascinating elements to Golden Sun so it being withheld for so long in Dark Dawn is a shame, regardless of the in game explanation. I would argue that just because an absence is explained in no way detracts from the interactive consequence of its absence.
Surprised you barely mention the difficulty of the game. The puzzles are several steps down what Golden sun did. The combats are so easy (except for the final boss which is an incredibly high step up) that you can just win everything in auto attack mode. All the depth of the djinn system is basically wasted because it's just slower and less efficient than just use your attack action.
Yes, it's possible that there's a few goods and people overreacted trashing it much below where it belongs. But being challenged by the puzzles and smart bosses was one of the ways this saga became one of my favourites. It feels like playing a watered down version of it.
I was originally planning on diving deeper into the difficulty, but honestly I was already worried there was too much going on in this video. I did at least make a mention of the puzzles. While I do agree that the first two games are more difficult puzzles, I actually found a lot of the puzzles to be far more clever. Some of the Zodiac puzzles immediately come to mind. Unfortunately the quality of the puzzles is all over the place so the great ones seem to be overlooked because of just how many exist that are "meh".
I totally agree with your final statement though. I praised the first game, and my playthrough for my review of The Lost Age was my first time playing it and it's genuinely in my top 5 favorite JRPG's, but I think Dark Dawn is good, but like the exact definition of "good". I am in no rush to replay it, and probably never will if I'm being honest.
This video perfectly encapsulates what is complicated about this particular game. Frankly, everything about Dark Dawn is more nuanced than even a 50 minute essay can express. As a relative newcomer to Golden Sun myself, the vitrolic response to Dark Dawn has always sort of confused me. Even with my relatively low standards I found plenty to dislike, but also noticed that a lot of its strengths seem to be ignored. I get the impression that people are trying to find things to dislike, as if to prove a point. It kind of makes things harder for the rest of us who like the game, as if we have to sort of apologetically justify why we think the game is fine. And yet, I sort of get it when this game is a convenient scapegoat for why we didn't get more Golden Sun games. I genuinely think that if we are to get a true Golden Sun 4, much of the hate Dark Dawn currently faces will begin to fade (provided they don't screw it up). Because right now, Dark Dawn can't just be "that one weird mistep that was developed and/or released at a bad time", it's instead "this game *KILLED* Golden Sun and it's *NOT CANON*!" And yet, Camelot doesn't seem to actively ignore the series by including references to it in the Mario Sports games and brings it up during interviews completely unprompted. While unsubstantiated on my part, I've also heard claims that Nintendo Corporate actually loves Golden Sun and are supportive of a potential revival. I don't think the future as this series is as hopeless as it can sometimes seem. In fact, I think that the sunrise will happen sooner than many of us expect. See you in 2024 winky face.
You're totally on point on this one. There are were still several pages worth of notes that didn't make it into this video and those talking points were still back and forth with some praises and other criticisms.
If you are prophetically accurate and something Golden Sun related releases in 2024....I'll buy your copy lol.
Love this comment, and Camelot putting references in their Mario Sports games gives me so much hope for a new game. I bet you any money that anyone who hates Dark Dawn will still within seconds buy the sequel.
I hate dark dawn, but I never say it's a terrible game, I say it's a bad golden sun game. It's obviously better than many objectively bad games. But with my gaming backlog growing, any future golden sun games for me would have gone from a day 1 no brainer purchase to 'I'll ignore the game and see what people say about it and then try to get it at a 50% discount next year' kinda thing.
Dark dawn is already decent at its best, it's just that the ending made its reputation worse. If only they ended the game with the three seeing their parents and starting to build the soarwing then people will be satisfied. But no, they decided to leave us with a cliffhanger that they think they'll be able to continue if only the sales didn't suck. Which they should expect because no one is gonna enjoy being blue balled.
@@Zerbraxi ALRIGHT FRIEND GOLDEN SUN IS ON SWITCH IN 2024 GUESS WHO HAS TO PAY FOR MY SUBSCRIPTION NOW 😎
They pulled a netflix to drag the series out for another season without putting in the effort to make the current season good.
Pretty fair sentiment. It also seems like they got distracted and decided to drop their original idea half way through development when I think it would've just been best to finish it out and not pivot like they did.
Dark Dawn's dungeon designs are PEAK Golden Sun IMO. Luna Tower slaps so hard. My word.
Ya, some of the dungeons are seriously awesome.
Just some minor nitpicks about the video.
Blados and Chalice aren't "mercenaries", they're elites from a forgotten kingdom called Tuaparang that re-emerged after the Golden Sun event. Their names are card puns. Blados and Chalis are based on the Sword and Chalice suits in the Minor Arcana, while in Japanese, their names are Spade and Heart, respectively. Arcanus refers to a complete set of the Minor Arcana (56 card trump deck) and the Major Arcana (22 card suit deck, while in Japanese, his name is Ace. It reflects how Blados and Chalis (plus "Rodney" and "Penelope" [wands and pentacles; clubs and diamonds] if we ever get a sequel) are considered the High Empyro's standard direct subordinates, while Alex is a wild card, his ace in the whole, as it were.
The game isn't harping on Alchemy being bad, it's exploring the consequences of bringing back Alchemy to the world. It was sealed away because people misused it to bring destruction, and Tuaparang is representative of that idea. The climax of The Lost Age ended with the characters bringing back alchemy to deal with whatever threat would come their way, and the psynergy vortexes and Tuaparang are that threat.
Ya I kinda made a mistake by not clearing up that statement of them being mercenaries. I said that because in the beginning that's what they look like, but ya, near the end their role is clarified and I had noted to point that distinction out but, for some reason, never did.
The conclusion about Alchemy you point out near the end is definitely something I go over more in the Lost Age video. It's probably one of the best elements of Golden Suns story about the conundrum of to live with something powerful or to end it. There are dire consequences on either side and exploring that further is something I hope to do on a follow-up video perhaps.
Thank you for the comment!!
@@Zerbraxi Yeah, the main reason I brought it up is because you said Alex’s alias was lame without mentioning anything about why it was like that, and it seemed odd that you mentioned how Dark Dawn seemed to be backtracking to “Alchemy Bad” like in the first Golden Sun”, rather than it just being the direct consequence of bringing back Alchemy.
Speaking of, I think the beastmen subplot is related to this idea. The Umbra Gear can only be worn by beastmen, and they were made thousands of years ago by the Jenei (ancient adepts) and the Exathi (ancient craftsmen responsible for the many structures in Weyard, like the Lighthouses). This would imply that beastmen also existed in ancient times. As such, the beastmen in Garo were a sort of prelude to the effects of Alchemy’s power, showcasing how it can lead to evolutionary adaptations in certain humans. That’s why I think the beastmen in Morgal exist; aside from how one of the NPCs in Garo mention there are other tribes of beastmen that aren’t as friendly as the ones in Garo, there were others that transformed after the Golden Sun event.
(Also, Eoleo did possess a consciousness when he was a baby; the whole reason Briggs escaped was because Eoleo could tell he was in trouble and got the key to his cell with his Psynergy.)
The game definitely should’ve definitely spent more time in the oven, though. Even with the encyclopedia, they barely explain anything, and anything they do explain is done in sparse yet cryptic ways. It doesn’t help that everything changes in just 30 years; for all of Legend of Korra’s faults, at least that took place 70 years after Legend of Aang.
Why is nobody talking about the way too easy battle system. Even without grinding you are always overpowered.
I didn't mention it because, quite honestly, I didn't really grind in any of the games and was always more than powerful to overcome the obstacles. Even the super bosses in Lost Age weren't really difficult outside 1 of them. Might just be me, but I didn't really notice too drastic of a difficulty change between the 3 games overall, except Dullahan in TLA. Though, I guess thinking back I guess I did struggle the most on the final boss in the original game more than the other 2.
Yeah, I dunno. I guess I seriously just didn't notice it much.
This one was my first in the series. Honestly loved it.. but those damn missable djinn
It's definitely better than it gets credit for, but it also has some serious bs in it...
@@Zerbraxi indeed, but this and custom robo arena are what made my ds childhood. Even with its issues I still love it
There were also *many* Summons that were way too easy to miss.
Mario Tennis Power Tour is the 3rd best Golden Sun game and I will die on that hill
When I inevitably host a world championship Mario Tennis Power Tour tournament then I hope to have you as my second.
All the people who make these videos never seem to mention two things: psynergy shortcuts and early access to late psynergy with djinn.
I went over shortcuts in my Lost Age video, but you're right about the Djinn. It's a cool little game design tease that I just never went over. I'm glad you brought it up though
I watched the Lost Age video AFTER this one, so that makes sense. I love Golden Sun content, so thanks for posting!
I really appreciate this video! I was one of those Golden Sun fans who was stuck waiting for the third game's announcement and release. I remember still enjoying my first time through, albeit disappointed at the story. I was left confused, and definitely lost with the direction the story took, the additions of brand new cultures/towns that didn't exist before in places we had already been. Add in the two new psynergy types mentioned only briefly at the end... only to be left with a cliffhanger about the original plot.
I had put the game down for for at least a decade iirc, and had a discussion about the game with some friends and decided to boot it up and play it again. After I had finished it that second time, I think I felt roughly the same as you did now. There are still some seriously disappointing aspects to the game, and some other absolutely great points. I LOVE how they finally made a brawler/fighter jupiter adept (both Ivan and Sheba being very caster-oriented) and a caster earth adept! Conversely though, you don't get Himi until the last 10-15% of the game, which means less time experimenting and play with her, and also less time for her to be an actual character and member of the party with chances to interact and comment on things like all the others do. Honestly, even Eoleo isn't playable until the last 20-25% or so of the story as well, I feel like this isnt as bad since Eoleo just feels like a Garet/Tyrell clone as well (except actually cooler).
The one thing I think you hadn't mentioned is the difference in the dungeons between the three games. The first one had mostly simple and good entry-level dungeons, with the second game taking a huge step forward and making the dungeons longer and more difficult/complicated (I still dread the idea of doing Ankhol ruins whenever i play through TLA again). Dark Dawn however, feels like it's even more simple and unsatisfying in it's dungeons than the original game, and I think this step back (in combination with the fumbled story) are the two largest drawbacks of this game. That being said, it's still a fine game overall and is certainly enjoyable, I think it just failed to live up to expectations.
6/10 there was no Mia, so I'm sad. :'(
Poor Mia. She was such a good character.
Yeah, the dungeons are an interesting issue. They are for sure less advanced and less interesting than TLA design, but not all of the dungeons in TLA are great. A couple of them get genuinely obnoxious but the good overwhelmingly outweighs it in that title. However, I actually think that Dark Dawn's dungeons are more complex than the original game, just slightly so, but I think the original gets away with it's simplicity because of the novelty of the exploration and psynergy for the first time. Since the first game is clearly aiming to "ease players in" to the world of Weyard, that tone makes the dungeon design far more acceptable, where as Dark Dawn being the third entry in the series attempting the same trick just comes off as a step back.
Just some extra thoughts I didn't share.
Hey, that’s me
Your royalties check is in the mail. Ya gotta trust me on that.
27:26 The weapons having more Unleashing options is considered a nerf. In The Lost Age, there is a crafting system and you can get really close to 100% crit rate. So basically just sword unleashes every turn. Especially with Sol Blades Megiddo. Having 4 options means you’re no longer guaranteed to always get Megiddo. Which was possible in the older games.
That's a good point. I don't personally care about nerfs or buffs if the overall experience or pacing is superior, especially across sequels. However, maybe the reason I didn't notice this change is because my Matthew was critting so damn often with the build I did so it just never occurred to me.
I've only ever played these games casually and I think I might really try breaking into a deeper theorycrafting build my next Lost Age playthrough.
@Zerbraxi it's all good, I just binged through all 3 of your Golden Sun videos last night. And I loved them, just thought I would give you a reason I personally didn't like the game.
I've been deep in the class system for a long time. And my favorite build was always the 95~% crit build. So when they changed the weapon system, it hurt me. Doing guarenteed 2k Meggido's every turn is really nice.
You can play seriously if you want, but since I've been playing for so long I like to mess around and have some fun. If you use a save game editor on the first games save before transferring, you can get 2 Sol Blades for both Venus adepts. You can also add Ninja Sandals which is something programmed in the games just not available to obtain, and they give +15% crit rate. It's the only way to get over 100% crit in The Lost Age. Otherwise it's like 98% or something.
Anyways I'm glad you like the games, they're my favorite GBA games. With Lost Age just being perfect in my mind. I do play Dark Dawn occasionally, but I can definitely see all its faults when I play.
The Sun Will Shine Again!
One day brother!
I would trade Kraden for Jenna ANY DAY YO, WHY did we get this immortal old man, instead of the EPIC FIRE GRILL
Real talk...Who TF asked for more Kraden at all?!
People are overreacting about Dark Dawn. Of course it's not a perfect game and it did end on an empty cliffhanger, but it isn't so abominable.
Ya, I really thought it was fine. Definitely disappointing in a lot of ways but hardly sinful. It has some genuinely good elements to it.
Thank you for covering the entire Golden Sun series so far. The quality of your videos is amazing and just how fair your opinions on the series is truly refreshing. It's amazing to see this game be put under a microscope as somebody who grew up with the golden sun series as a whole. Im now a new subscriber and look forward to seeing new content for you :) keep it real 💯 👌 🔥
It was a lot to fun to do it all. This video series turned me from a casual fan to a Golden Sun enthusiast. The fans and community has been wonderfully supportive, even amongst disagreements.
It's a long shot...but i REALLY hope that one day I need to make a 4th video on a new entry :)
Dark Dawn is an interesting game for me in that the more time goes on, the better it feels compared to the first game. After a first playthrough, or the occasional casual replay as the years go on, I understand why the game feels bad to people, but when you reach the point of breaking down each game in its individual parts, it swings a bit.
Dark Dawn has some great puzzles, QoL improvements, mechanics, visuals, music, it truly maintains the 'feel' of the GBA games translated into the DS hardware and 3D. The first game, while a classic, feels incredibly rudimentary after you've sunk a lot of time into the other two, especially TLA as a direct comparison. It's more of a proof of concept game with little that it does the best in the series outside of the plot pacing. Basic characters, basic plot, basic puzzles, and as easy as Dark Dawn is, the originals don't exactly make you sweat when you realize you can just equip whatever your strongest weapon is and mash attack and a group heal every turn and stay ahead of the enemies for the entire game, or just full standby and nuke every boss in 1-2 turns.
Both games feel like opposites of each other in what they do well and poorly, and people should look past the status of each game as 'iconic' or 'killed the series' when comparing them.
In conclusion, this is why TLA is the peak of video gaming and Felix is the greatest Golden Sun character.
It's funny you mention some of these things because I also kinda feel Dark Dawn does well some of what the first 2 don't. That said it's still a bit of a mess for sure, but a fun enough one nonetheless.
Though ya, The Lost Age just kinda owns!
I was waiting for this video! 😁
I hope it met expectations :)
I didn't hate it, but I barely remember the story... What I do remember is the difficulty being absolutely non-existent compared to the originals. Like "do I even need to heal?" easy apart from some optional bosses
Incredibly easy!
"Utility Psynergy... Matthew will always have Move"
and Isaac, Garet, and Felix didn't? That's like saying Ivan/Sheba lose Mind Read and Reveal when they class out
I get what you're saying though, it's things like Growth (which originally had no native user) or Frost that could disappear.
You're totally right to criticize that statement lol. I mentioned those because they were the most obvious , but yeah I totally should've been more accurate with things like Whirlwind or Freeze/Cold Snap.
It's always these types of examples and sentences that I miss how sloppy they can be after I've written, re-read them like 3 times and still heard them in editing another 3 times, yet I still never notice..whoops!
@@Zerbraxi I don't mean to be too harsh--it is mostly just trivia and won't be the deciding factor in whether someone tries &/or fondly remembers the games (and wonders why no playables are in _Smash Bros. ...)._
@@antenna_prolly Nah I didn't take it as harsh at all. You're good! No Isaac or Felix in Smash though....always gonna be a mystery to me.
I have a theory that I repeatedly see me being the only one thinking. What if Alex isn’t a villain? What if everything he is doing is simply to try and continue to keep the world alive? He has immortality, but notice how that wasn’t enough for him? Now he wants to bring back not just dark psyenergy but also Light Psyenergy. Two more forms of Psyenergy we didn’t know about before this. And why would he want the world to be destroyed when he can finally walk it forever? And yet the ancient one’s true motivations have never been fully revealed. How do we know he isn’t behind the mourning moon?
It's an interesting theory. Hopefully we get a 4th installment so we can explore more of Alex and see what's really going on.
Dark Dawn was my first (and only) ever Golden Sun game, I got it when I was like 9. I remember absolutely loving it, I never knew people hated it so much 😭
It has a lot of good things to praise about it still. If you ever get a chance though, the others are pretty great too
I'm hoping to see more. Imo, Dark Dawn wasn't so bad. It did have hiccups, but was fun.
It's gotta come back some day right? Right?
14:22 I hope that's still working for you haha. But fr I am sad I'm nearing the end of your Golden Sun series(34 minutes left on this one), it's been a treat to watch in pieces throughout the past month. All of your points have been extremely fair. I'm sure you'll have some other content I'll be able to watch in the same manner.
I can't describe how much it means to me that not only did someone watch my ramblings, but also made consistent effort to poke at an entire series. That is so awesome. I REALLY hope that you end up enjoying this last one, and hopefully you like what else I've made, and if not, maybe you'll like what's to come.
Thank you again for watching.
Dark Dawn was a hidden gem with glaring flaws but still good. As long as you can look past the flaws and don't let them color your opinion on the rest of the game it is a really good game
When i finished the game I was disappointed that it was over it felt unfinished like the story just started and then they ended it abruptly.
Yeah, that's kinda how I felt too. I was still in to finish the loose ends and keep playing.
You said everything that needed to be said about this game! There are so many good things about this game that fans ignore. While not the best game in the series, it was more than enough to get me into the series as a 10 year old.
It's always awesome when the series only goes up from where you start. It's been such a fun ride hanging out with so many Goden Sun fans.
To be fair, Legend of Dragoon is an absolute banger of a game
It's a game I'm so excited to cover that I want to make a movie out of it.
As much as we waited for it I think that dark dawn just needed more time in the oven, give the story structure another pass through, and polish up some of the animations, I hope that getting the gba games via NSO helps pave the way for a world after sunrise that lives up to the originals in a more fulfilling way, also yeah I agree about points of no return, they can be narrativly fulfilling so long as you can plan for them, my first time playing it I walked right into it like an idiot
I'd love to see sol and umbra djinn and psynergery for most everyone be almost like a sub type in pokemon and lean into the fact you already have 2 full teams so you can have a full light and dark complement of each, we already have a look at that since Sveta had the Umbra Gear and Matthew could utilize the Sol Blade. It would also give more weight to the Tua pareg being only dark (and maybe light)
Ahh, I never thought about using Sol and Umbra like sub classes, or perhaps like modifiers. Sol Venus and Umbra Venus could lean towards different modifications on top of already existing class system. I really like the idea of something like that. Really clever.
I also hope NSO will bring Golden Sun back into the realm of discussion. I mean, to some degree it already has since I have already had several friends mention that they saw Golden Sun available for GBA and want to try it after hearing about it on the internet for years. Let's hope!
@@Zerbraxi it would definitely help given one of the detractions I remember was that there were too many characters that felt like they didn't need to be there and it would give access to more psynergy without adding character bloat
I was one of those Golden Sun fans that waited and waited and waited, and couldn't believe we were getting a sequel game in 2010. I did a v-log thing at the time when I finished it, so I still know my honest thoughts from then: Dark Dawn is....fine. On its own, with no information of the other two games, it might even be seen as great. But I *do* know the original two games, and cannot divorce my opinion from them that Dark Dawn is just utterly mid by comparison.
Everything you hit on is stuff I questioned too. Combat didn't feel as good, but at LEAST they introduced members of your party switching to attack other enemies should their original target be felled. But the lore questions are numerous - "ancient civilizations" and their "dormant technology" and "the long heritage of the Beastmen" - where WAS all this?? The world feels so unfamiliar, and it's not just because things shifted geographically. Things only being 30 years on really doesn't compute - maybe do 300 years and I'd be more on board with it. I get that some people will go "it's parts of the world you didn't see", but it just feels really strange. Like, would the werewolves of Garoh be so mind-blowing if the Beastmen had a kingdom this whole time?
I'm also glad you touched on an aspect that I don't see people mention a lot - DD is *really* hand-holdy and easy, both in terms of having several revival options & healing spells super early, and how the game functions. This seems to be in line with franchises like Pokemon just kind of adding more and more training wheels as time goes on, and I remember feeling like the adventure never really "got going". I played through Dark Dawn always pushing towards "the next thing" and hoping that "next thing" would finally make the game feel like a game, which is not an optimal way to play a game.
The other thing that nobody mentions is that the 3D models are such a step down from the sprites. The artwork and design in the GBA games is GORGEOUS. It is fluid and eye-catching, and while I still think Camelot does solid environmental story telling in DD, it's such a shame to see them do 3D character models and not really accomplish much with it.
I don't actually think the story is that bad, and the Apollo Sanctum is pretty kickass. The Grave Eclipse and its consequences is genuinely horrifying. There's certainly good things in Dark Dawn, but to an avid fan like me it's overshadowed by a lot of weird little problems. I'm just worried that we're never going to get a GS4 and Camelot will be forced to slave away in the Mario Sports Mines.
You actually point out something I didn't really discuss and I REALLY should have. The consequences and setup of the Grave Eclipse is actually really neat. Exploring the world and having it all change around you with new and more powerful enemies scattered quite literally everywhere really makes the narrative and gameplay meld in a way that very few games ever manage to execute on. The largest reason I skipped over it mostly is because it happens SOOO close to the end that there really isn't a substantial consequence overall. It "should" have been a bigger deal but that's kind of how I feel about almost every plot point of Dark Dawn. It never really dives into anything fully so we never get a chance to be invested because by the time it shows up , it'll either be wrapped up soon or simply forgotten.
Apollo Sanctum is great. I really should've shouted it's praises more because it's actually pretty interesting.
I really hope you enjoyed the series. I have a couple things I'm still working on. Hoping to get a 2023 Retrospective of the whole year out in early January and have 1 Star Fox game to wrap up the mainline series, though there are actually WAY more I need to cover in that franchise but maybe another time. I can't guarantee I'll do it, but if you have any games you'd like to see covered I'm always excited to try new things and make something for people. I have loads of videos already planned but I find it really fun to make videos "for someone specifically" ya know? No promises but I'd love to hear from ya if you have any ideas :)
@@Zerbraxi You know what, it's funny we both are like "the Grave Eclipse and the Apollo Sanctum are so cool!" but they're both towards the end of the game (AS being the WAY end of the game). It's like Camelot was working on it and suddenly had some great, cohesive ideas, but they had made 70% of the game so they didn't want to go back and change it.
In the same vein of "games you waited a long time for sequels for" Psychonauts and Psychonauts 2 fit in there. Psychonauts is my other favorite game besides GS, and I just adore it. Great platformer if you like platformers, creative, artistic, well-designed, all that.
As someone who really despises Dark Dawn, after having played the two first games to death, let me explain why it's not only a bad Golden Sun game, but also a bad sequel.
See, the first game has a naive feel to it, with cookie cutter characters and a nothing scenario, but the gameplay is great, fast, compelling. It's highly enjoyable for its hidden treasures and hidden gameplay depth. You grow with the game as it shows you more complexity.
The sequel, Lost Age, shows us a slightly darker scenario, more mature themes, like having to choose between two potentially dangerous outcomes, and gives us a huge world to let lost in; We're grown up. We can handle it. We beat the first game. The pacing in pretty incredible, and only only get more of what we liked, but we get PLENTY more. the sheer scale is incredible.
Now, imagine what fans wanted from a third game. We wanted a sequel to Lost Age. More. A bigger world, a bigger scenario, better conflicts... we were shown the trend by Lost Age, and we wanted to follow it.
We got Dark Dawn. A naive, childish game, small in scale, holding our hand the entire time, with one dimensional, uninteresting characters and a plot that didn't even know where it was going. That would have been bad enough. But Dark Dawn insults its fans by hiding most of the old cast, cutting the explorable world in half and limiting exploration with points of no return. Dark Dawn isn't only a bad sequel, it's the antithesis to everything Golden Sun stands for. It forgot what the first two games did, and makes mistakes THEY avoided.
Yeah, the combat gets fun eventually, the music isn't that bad (even though I can't remember a single tune), but meager qualities can't make up for the sheer unfunness of it. My personnal grievance is the playable cast. My god are they bland! Like, really bland! Ok, the originals didn't have much to say, but they had... something. Now, each character is one anime trope that's been edulclorated to death. Mia's son is especially annoying. And Thelos just lore dumps on everyone all the time, and you can't even send him packing like in 2! The characters just LET everything happen TO them. They're not actors. they're not characters. They're just spell lists for the most part. Even attempts at personnal stories fail most of the time, except for Beast Girl and Eoleo.
I know it's late after the video, but I hope I could share why this game is a blight on the good name of Golden Sun.
I do totally understand the frustration with Dark Dawn. I've been there myself with certain titles and some of it's shock and surprise reminds me a lot of the initial distaste for The Wind Waker. We wanted bigger, better, and more mature and what we got was arguably less in many ways and far more childish. I guess the big difference between Dark Dawn and Wind Waker is that WW is absolutely incredible and it's own merits far outshine the disappointment where as Dark Dawn still makes a ton of missteps and confusing trips along the way.
I really do appreciate you for sharing your thoughts. While I personally think the game is actually pretty fine, I totally understand the disappointment and in many ways it's incredibly warranted.
Wow, love the video! Your energy is awesome. As someone whose intro to the series was Dark Dawn and loves it to death, it's always nice to see someone give a balanced analysis of all the pros and cons. I was lucky to experience it as my first RPG as a 10 year old because I didn't have any expectations riding on it. Now I can totally understand why people coming from the first two games and having that huge wait would find a lot of elements disappointing, especially the hand-holdy feel and the barely explained changes in the world.
I am curious though, if you would be down to share, what are your opinions on characterization between DD and the original 2? The series as a whole isn't the strongest on the characters front, but similar to the nonsense music complaint (Dark Dawn's soundtrack is beautiful) I always feel like people who say the original cast is amazing while the new cast is boring are a little blinded by nostalgia. TLA has the strongest characters across the board, but imo DD does characters, individuality and dynamics WAY better than GS, which was so skimpy on that front that I found it kinda laughable at times. Did you find the cast of DD to be boring?? Or maybe just wasted potential?
Umm, I don't think a lot of the Golden Sun characters are all that exciting in terms of personality. There are some standouts for sure such as Ivan and Jenna to me. In general though, I don't think there's any actual substantive difference between Matthew and Isaac for example. The only real reason Felix is so much better than the other 2 is because we got a whole game where he wasn't silent before he become silent.
For Dawn Dawn's characters in particular though, I think I'd have to say that I genuinely like Sveta and Amiti. The others are fine but they don't really bring much to the table over all. I think in general the characters are all written with the purpose of "having things happen to them" rather than "they are influencing the world."
I respect your right to have an opinion on Dark Dawn
That's big of you
I think ur my #1 favorite TH-camr full stop. You spit hot fiyah!
What...there's no way! There are some really damn good creators out there and I'm just over here completely winging it.
You’re in my top 3 for sure Zebraxi
@@Propbase80XGem jeez...the size of the smile on my face. You are way too kind.
Thank you for this review I enjoyed it so very much! I wish for a fourth game to happen or a remaster just anything!
You're very welcome and thank you so so much for watching! I'm glad the games are at least on NSO now. A new game or remaster though would make my whole year.
@@Zerbraxi Yes mine as well! Maybe Nintendo is tracking the activity on NSO? They might see the interest of the fanbase!
Golden sun: DD is effectively golden sun 1.5 and I'm here for that.
Interesting perspective. It seems like a lot of things to a lot of people.
To be fair, you had it up against Legend of Dragoon. One of the best Final Fantasy games Square/SquareEnix never made. Unless someone absolutely *HATED* LoD with the burning passion of a thousand fiery suns (which is physically imposable, see earlier praise), then of course it is going to edge out Dark Dawn.
I adore whenever someone talks up Legend of Dragoon as much as I do. You are a true legend.
I hate this game. I'm excited to see your thoughts.
I'm not nervously hoping I meet your expectations at all....nope....not at all...
Great, because as a diehard GS fan whose been waiting ages for a 4th installment, I despise the likes of you. Because of your trash reception, nintendo couldnt care less about funding another GS installment while we out here suffering
@@WeyardWiz I bought Dark Dawn at release. Played it, liked it. Sung it's praises for years.
Once I realized GS4 wasn't coming, I went back to Dark Dawn and realized it was such a colossal misstep that it killed the franchise.
@@Zerbraxi Great video. I agree with all your points. Game has some high points and some real stinky sections.
@@MilkmanYeti
Your opinion -> 🗑
It's not that the music is BAD, it's just nowhere near the same level as the previous games. I would turn my GBA on just to hear that music; not so much with Dark Dawn.
Honestly, the same goes for the whole game. Not great, not terrible, but not worth replaying.
While I was definitely a HUGE fan of the music, I think you're final line of the comment is exactly point on. Like, if I was to replay Golden Sun right now I would HAVE to follow it up with The Lost Age. No questions I would have to play both back to back. And then...I'd just skip Dark Dawn and move on to something else probably.
Unfortunately i didnt even know what the story was about, but the combat was mad fun for me thats for sure. Sveta was nuts
Lol, the story is definitely a bit uhh...odd. Sveta is ACTUALLY nuts for sure! Probably my favorite character to play as across all 3 games.
To be fair to Dark Dawn regarding new towns etc., it's mentioned by NPCs a few times in the other games there are other towns and cities, they just aren't visited by the parties because, you know, world saving quests and all.
(Still mad we never got to visit the settlements on the other side of the Rift north of Prox)
And regarding Alex, Kraden DOES lampshade the fact that the mask is hardly a disguise, and outright wonders if he's even trying to hide his identity. I think it was designed to be obvious to the players, but not the characters (who, aside from Kraden, have never met him and only heard stories).
We also did have a single new summon, but yeah. Summons could've been better.
I do agree with you that Dark Dawn is underrated, and a competent game, I think the issue is it's just not as good as the prior ones.
Yeah, I think its always awkward when you have a series that's only a few entries and 2 of them are absolutely incredible. I think the original Mass Effect trilogy is a victim of this with the 3rd game for a while. Dragon Age 2 is for example isn't anywhere nearly as bad as I would like to make it out to be, but its place compared to the others is odd. There are quite a few other series that have the same problem where 2 games are incredible and renowned by many, with a 3rd entry that is totally competent and a good experience, but being "good" seems to be a greater sin than being bad in terms of affection and remembrance.
Long winded thoughts over.
@@Zerbraxi Agreed. I also think you're spot on with the DA and ME points. DS2 doesn't get as bad a rep since it was just the middle game between DAO and DAI, both of which were great (and the Corepheus DLC helped), whereas ME3 is panned because of 'CHOOSE YOUR COLOUR OF EXPLOSION!' which ended the series on a terrible note, with nothing to look forward to.
@@GoldenSunAlex It always tends to be a matter of genuine criticism is force multiplied by other factors such as surrounding titles being better, leading titles being better, or the wait time between releases.
Crystallux definitely my favourite summon, grievances aside
Crystallux is SOOO cool!
@@Zerbraxi 10000000000%
Really good video and i agree with you
Considering how positive I was overall, I'm surprised to have much agreement so I appreciate it lol!!
i consider myself a giga fan of golden sun (played the original 2 games when they FIRST released on an actual GBA and fell in love at first sight) and i can say pretty definitely that the line between dark dawn being amazing and just.... okay is very thin. the ONLY thing that genuinely ruins the experience (thats kind of harsh the game isn't "ruined" per say at all) is the extremely baffling writing decisions they made. everythi9ng else in dark dawn i genuinely felt like was an upgrade over the previous two games. something genuinely just went horribly wrong when they were writing the scenario lol.
I know it's redundant to say since I made a whole video around this point I'm about to state but ya, I think the story is THE reason Dark Dawn stumbles. It just acts as this force amplifier for every misstep and because of that the flaws become horrific to some players. It's a shame, it really is, especially because I see the gameplay get beaten up for it by fans when I do think DD has really damn good mechanics.
Being the weakest of the three also is pretty easy when the first two games just completely blow the player away. i thought dark dawn was fine, playing it was fun
Yeah, I pretty much agree. I enjoyed Dark Dawn, but ya, those first 2 games are just kinda nuts huh?
I love Golden Sun and the series. I don't know this guy.
....now I like both.
I like you too.
The first battle theme returns when you reach the Iced mountain (don't know the English name) where The Rya is located, so midway through the game not at the end.
Was it only mid way? It felt way deeper than that. Huh.
@@Zerbraxi Yep but understandable the part right before the change is the dullest part of the game imo so it's understandable to not pay any attention to the music 🤣
My issue was the game felt rushed and half a game it is like the game got going then stopped I was like umm I want to know more
Ya for sure. The mix up in the plot and ending make it feel really unfinished and almost distracted.
Yeah I still think that Dark Dawn is the weakest of the three but I am also of the opinion that a lot of the narrative problems Dark Dawn has would be solved if you were playing as Sveta from the beginning, then bring in Matthew later in the game, with the Psynergy Vortexes being saved as a cliff hanger mystery that would build hype for a potential sequel.
Oh that's an interesting angle to come from. I like that idea.
I played that's game a long time and at the end it left saw a cliffhanger
The cliffhanger ending makes me sad :(😢
Great job. Glad I found your channel. I just posted a Golden Sun vid and this became a recommendation. I agree with others in your comments section. Your channel is a gem!
Wow! Thank you so much. I'll have to check out your Golden Sun video too now 😀
At least _Dark Dawn_ isn't to _Golden Sun_ what _NT_ is to _Dissidia Final Fantasy._
Rip dissidia...I loved the potential for that series :(
I played Dark Dawn and loved it.
Nice! Anything in particular really make it stand out to you that I didn't mention?
@@Zerbraxi I got to play it with the official prima guide but even then I always felt like I had something to do even during down time in the story. Tho the points of no return still got little me relentlessly. Little me also really enjoyed doing the puzzles tho I also vaguely remember being forced to swap stuff for certain psynergies that I needed and then constantly having to swap back and forth.
@@pokelogikx I have a copy of that strategy guide and I just wanna say how beautiful the art is in that thing.
@@Zerbraxi omg yes I love how they decided to make the pages look like old times parchment even tho it’s just printed on.
Truly great structure and presentation, Good Job!
Thank yo so much! That's very kind of you.
Well, part of your wish came true with the release of Golden Sun 1 and 2 coming out to the Switch store. I still hope for a brand new Golden Sun for the Switch.
I'll take the small win but still hoping for a huge win someday.
I haven't touched this game since forcing myself to beat it the first time when it was new, so I don't remember the fine details well. But I was very dissapointed, and I was hoping you were going to say it's very, indisputably, extremely, most assuredly... average.
Anyway, I'm more of a gameplay oriented guy with my jrpgs, and while Golden sun, and dark dawn most of all have a very solid battle system for a ds jrpg, it's completely wasted because the game is too frickin' easy. You mention how the revive djinn are wasted cuz the game is too easy early on. I do NOT recall the early game being easy compared to the late game. In fact, I remember being able to basically win every battle using nothing but auto attack, bosses included. The ONLY 'hard' fight I remember was like the 2nd boss IIRC. I think it was the 2nd. It's the one against 3 generic enemy soldier mooks, and they were the hardest because they had an aoe paralyze flashbang attack or something, and your options in dealing with the status ailment were limited at that point in the game.
Then the story is obviously stupid. I mean like you said, Isaac and Garet, but nobody else, despite everyone supposedly not aging, despite Isaac and Garet clearly aging, and other people missing even though they supposedly are related to the other cast, 'Arcanus', really? Like I really wanted to know what was going to happen with him after the 2nd game, but as soon as he appears and behaves and gets a stupid name like 'arcanus', I was like 'ohh... no...', and sure enough, they never redeem him whatsoever. ugh..
Also, the mind read thing, like you said, another element t hat makes this game objectively worse in both story and gameplay in a way the players should expect.
The designer said he was worried that the fans need something new to interest them because they would age out of what worked before. But he literally kept so many things that were of no consequence that makes it cringe, and he got rid of the timeless cool things like mind reading, the REST of the cast, despite, you know, making an excuse why they SHOULD still be around (and having some be still around, including Garret, which.. I mean, why Garret. Does ANYONE like Garret?! He's like the annoying sidekick who thinks he's cooler than he is and just makes you want to tell him to shut-up every time he bothers to talk.
That said, this game didn't disappoint me half as much as the Lufia DS disasterpiece (how is that game highly rated now? how? I can forgive it if it tried to change genres, but it butchered the original story, cut it to like 1/3rd in length, failed to add anything new, still makes me dying to know who the heck that first sinistral is in the opening of 2 (I forget his name)... all of that. God @%#%@% That game makes me mad.
I love how reading this comment goes from interesting criticism of Golden Sun into a mad frenzy of a completely unrelated game at the end LOL. It seems like everyone just has that one game that just derails your train of thought because it just pisses you off after all these years and the disappointment just sits and festers.
Just poking fun because reading it reminds me of how often I do the exact same thing LOL.
I've not touched ANY of the Lufia games really. It's a series I want to try and get into but there are some other JRPG's I also wanna hit like Suikoden and Phantasy Star.
@@Zerbraxi its because they were both released at approximately similar times (in proportion to the wait) on the DS. And both were decidedly NOT worth the wait. My DS library isnt even that big. Like 10 games, 3 being etrian odyssey, and 2 being those 2 games lol. So I tend to see both of those darm boxes together. Grrr =p.
Thank you. I totaly agree with you. Dark Dawn might not be a hidden gem, but it does not deserve the hate it got. I feel like the main issue is its pacing of story telling. The idea of "We want to investigate, but first we need to gather ingredients. Oh we get side tracked by psynergie vortexes and suddenly the grave eclipse happens and holy cow umbra adepts?" is a good one, but the game spents to much on working to the final point. Maybe if we had GS 3 and 4 in a bundle, it would make way more sense. I mean to a certain degree the same formular is what worked in the Lost Age. For a huge part of the game you walk around and try to find your way through the western sea.
I love Dark Dawn for many inclusions and creative new things like the improved psynergie and weapon system. What bums me out the most is the difficulty and the dungeons. I feel like most dungeons are super interesting but too short. Ourobos suffers the most from it. Its hyped up to be such an amazing labyrinth and then done in like 10 min. Also the bosses feel like they die as soon as the first 4 Djinn summon hits.
But what I suprisingly feel takes a lot of the fun in gameplay what I discovered is that characters re-target if the original target dies. The first games had like this strategic aspect of having to plan your moves, get an understanding of how bulky certain enemies are to not lose turns and in Dark Dawn you can just spam attacks.
I can't remember if I specifically called this out in the video, but the fact that the party members retarget upon enemy death makes the combat feel so much smoother. I totally agree with you!
It would appear that a surprising amount of people actually have a more nuanced take on Dark Dawn than I originally expected. I'm kinda glad because I can't fully understand the hate, but I do understand the disappointment in a lot of ways. Though there's still a whole lot to enjoy here.
@@Zerbraxi yes smoother, but also takes away a lot of planning during combat, which i personally liked a lot about the old game. At a certain level of being ahead in Dark Dawn you can just spam attacks and not think anymore which really increases the amout ramdom encounters annoyed me.
Totaly. I feel like its main problem is that its not a "bad game" but a "bad golden sun game". Expectations were just way to high from most players and we needed to go in there with a much more open mind.
It may not be your cup of tea but would you consider looking into the gba Castlevania games. You may be surprised, never know.
I would absolutely be willing to cover those games. I've been an on and off Castlevania fan and one of the biggest blind spots are the GBA games. I've only ever played Circle of the Moon very briefly and that's it for the GBA titles. I'd love to play and cover them sometime. I honestly don't know when I would be able to, but I added them as a series to do and could be fun.
For me, I "mostly" play Nintendo games for this channel, but in general, I'm down to play pretty much anything :)
I've been recommended this video by TH-cam, so excuse me for discovering it only now.
My own gripe about Dark Dawn is mostly about the starting point of the adventure. The first game had you immediately on your epic quest to save the world, and the second game put that on its head, which was rather clever. But the whole reason why Matthew, Tyrell and Karis are going out in the world is because Tyrell is a freakin' dunce. You stumble upon your own epic quest almost by accident - and in a first blind playthrough, it also means you get locked out of a ton of nice stuff without knowing _why_ (or that it _existed_ at all in the first place).
That said, there are a lot of points I made peace with since. I'm not saying that Dark Dawn had to happen - I think it would have been better if the game had instead been given more time and was released on the 3DS instead of among the last games to release on the DS ever. Maybe then it would have been possible to address those shortcomings. Maybe it would have been different - radically so. And maybe it would have not left us hanging on for so long. But _I'm_ saying that as a point of entry, Dark Dawn _works._
If this is the first Golden Sun game you play, the extended tutorializing is okay, if a bit long. But if Pokémon gets to do it in its seventh generation, why would it not be good for a game series admittedly more complex? The atmosphere and ambiance is still there. It's just a bit more riddled with plot holes than the other two games, but it's also way more intuitive. The way the game made use of the touch screen is nice. Sure, Matthew has to compete with his own father for blandest protagonist ever, but at least the rest of the cast gets to shine a little bit more?
Overall, I think most of the heavy feelings comes from what was missed. Without Mind Read, the world feels... less full. Without a way to go back on your tracks, you don't get to see how most of the location you visit evolve, if at all. Many returning characters are teased and then never seen on screen, my personal gripe being _Piers_ moreso than Jenna; the game pretty much telling you that most of the north-western part of Angara is locked out by the time you reach Border Town, and not being peculiarly subtle about that either.
Combat-wise, for all the new and shiny unlocks linked to your weapons, Psynergy feels almost like even more of an afterthought than before, especially if you do prepare a minimum after being dropped to 0 MP in the first 'real' Bad Guy Encounter. The fact you have all your 'elemental' psynergy locked to the Adept rather than the class is not much of a selling point to me either, especially considering the number of equippable items that simply _grants you_ full psynergy series usable in combat rather than simply the one variant you need for a few puzzles. And finally, the experience curve is also much smoother, so much so that by the time you get your last member, chances are she'll be a good 10 to 15 levels behind, which does not a good integration make.
So to me it's more of a "Meh" kind of game. It's okay if you want to delve into the world with fresher graphics and a somewhat lighter storyline; if you want to experiment with different playstyles and new Djinnis, or if you've never played another Golden Sun game before. It's a lot more horrible if you like tighter storylines, if you love exploring (which, as a Lost Age stan, comes with the territory), or if you had higher expectations based on your previous experience with the saga.
There's a specific line in your comment that really stands out. "I'm not saying that Dark Dawn had to happen...". It might not have HAD to happen, but as more and more time has gone on, I actually think it was very 'bound' to happen given when it released. I think the over tutorialization is horrendous, regardless of if you played any of the series before-hand. You make mention of Pokemon and, quite honestly, that series is a prime example of how you don't need to tutorial literally everything, but has awkwardly decided to increase stopping the player and over-informing them as years have gone on.
Dark Dawn is a weird victim of "we need to make another" and "the time it came out". It did release during a period where gaming was VERY much over explaining everything. Where complexity was seen almost as taboo. Where accessibility was ill-defined and bastardized as a way to remove trust in the player and instead force experiences into pre-defined theme park adventures. That all needed to happen to the industry in order to realize the flaw in it. The failure of overcompensating so to speak. Dark Dawn appears to be a victim of that.
Agreed though. It's "meh". I don't hate it, and I'm actually glad I played it, but if I return to play the series ever I'll definitely skip this one.
I love gsdd. It's one of my main comfort games that I come back to replay over and over. Admittedly, I never played the first two because I never had a game boy, so I don't have any frame a reference for how it compares to those, but as a game in it's own right, it's easily in my top five of ALL games. I would kill for either a new game on modern technology or a reboot.
It's kinda nice seeing the opposite, more loving side of this game. I get why some people have harsh feelings towards it, but I also just kinda enjoyed it quite honestly.
Anything new Golden Sun related would put me over the moon so YES PLEASE!
Great analysis!
..while I do want a new GS, I’m not sure if I’d want a “4” that continues the story of dark dawn since I didn’t feel that that story did justice to the setup of the original duo. I’d either like another pass at 3, or for them to just do something new.
I think their best bet would also be to leave the current characters and the Warriors of Vale. Go a few generations down so we can see what the true extent of the Golden Sun's effect is.
Its people like you who I despise the most in this fabdom. Thanks for encouraging Nintendo never to give a flying crap about loyal fans like myself who just want to play 1 final golden sun, whether it be DD sequel or Not!
@@WeyardWiz Well goodness, tell me how you really feel!
For what it’s worth, I consider myself a pretty big fan, though maybe less loyal than yourself, depending what you mean therein.
@@darkisatari Don't worry, I got the same response for not liking DD. We all know TRUE fans are the elitist gatekeepers who blame the rest of the fandom.
Thank you so much for continuing this saga! Have a good day ☀️
(btw i feel the long drawn out explaining is a general modern nintendo problem tbh, somehow their demographic generally being kids/family they think kids aren't smart. They are, just inexperienced.)
Thank you so much for watching! I'll definitely return to Golden Sun at some point in the future. I'd love to still touch on a load of things I had to leave out of these videos. It'll probably be a bit away realistically though.
I think you're totally correct on the drawn out explaining bit. It's always interesting to me that children in the 80's and 90's were able to "apparently" do the impossible while children today are expected to be completely incapable of critical thought. I'm being a bit dramatic for sure, but that's always how the perception feels. It's almost like a ton of designers just forgot how damn smart kids are.
Im that dark dawn entry player, im kinda glad.. now i got to play a good game and later play the much better 2 games (aside from the new djinn stuff)
Ya you kinda got the best possible scenario lol
Hold up. 9% of respondents voted FOR Dark Dawn? Were they under duress?
They clearly just hadn't played Legend of Dragoon yet
It really feels like the story was supposed to take place like... 150-200 years after the original games. The old cast could have still been around because of the Golden Sun event and we just follow thier grand or great grand kids. Could make the whole outliving their children a tangible story beat... that could then be foisted on the new cast as well because of what happens during the grave eclipse. The only real sticking points are Elio, (but he also could have just been a descendant or a random pirate claiming to be one,) and Himi, who could have also just been a decendant of Kusharna
Theres also a pretty good argument to be made that the cast is just too big for a first game. Especially with the fact that the points of no return never leave, making the post game feel really lacking compared to lost age. Himi doesnt really get a chance to shine despite being cool to use in combat and somewhat interesting from a story standpoint. Amiti and Sveta are much more interesting from a character standpoint than really any of the first four... I feel like there's a decent case to make sliming the cast to 6 or even four... if it were a cast of six, Sveta and Amiti could have been Umbra and Sol adepts..... with Mathew as a mars(making him more like Jenna), Karis as wind (with a more offensive focus, kinda like Sveta in the actual game), Himi as venus, and Elio as a mercury, maybe teasing at a Peirs connection, or him claimbing one as a brag.
Despite me being a die-hard fan who loves the characters of the original two, i can see where people are coming from when calling the characters and writing of the first game simplistic. (You're meant to recontectualize all that with the second game but w/e). The original two had two whole games to develop the cast of 8 where DD tries to do it in one...
I will say I do like the characterization of Isaac in DD. Him being the kinda guy who wants to stay in a remote area "keeping watch" and training, while being the kind of father who's eager to push Mathew and Tyrell on a journey does a lot for both his characterization and Mathew's. Still wish Felix and the lost age crew would have shown up :<
Also i think the points of no return are more likely to blindside players because of the whole Rockfeather quest. It feels like the kind of thing that should get resolved in the first 5 hours of a game... and i remember when i played DD for the first time i kept thinking like... "well, ill just keep playing until this little side thing is done", and it spured me to pass a few of the points before I might have if the narrative was more like "well, we dont really know what to do, so take some time and investigate" which as a pretty big thing in the first two.
Hey wait.... do the points of no return and getting mind read so late happen because they didnt want to write all that extra dialogue???? It kills me because mindread is such a fun and crucial feature to what i think is the core appeal of the first two games.
The disapointment does sting and fester, but this video does make me think i should give it another shot... a lot of the problems and shortcomings feel like they are meant to be tackled in a second game. Much like playing the first game without playing the lost age.... its just sad because i remember every GS fan i knew at the time purchased the game day one and were even like "guys! Lets not criticize too harshly because they might not make another one!" So i think a lot of the fandom's resentment simmered and was pushed onto DD.... but yeah... maybe someday... GS4... itts not impossible 🥲
(I also hope for a legend of dragoon remake or sequal 😢)
This was a wonderful read. It means a lot that my video would have someone consider giving a game another chance. That's so heartwarming.
There HAS to be another Legend of Dragoon game of some kind... right?
as a player that only played dark dawn, cause i didn't even knew that prequel golden sun titels existed, for me dark dawn was really enjoyable. i loved so much i really want a sequel. And yes im planing to play the other golden sun titels, but that will happen after i see a next golden sun titel. so that i can play from the start to finish (revisiting dark dawn yet again) what i didn't like in dark dawn is that it felt unfinished and i didn't like that bug that made you run on water to explore the world. plus the whole dark continent that was inaccessible.
If you enjoyed Dark Dawn I think you'll definitely like the others as well.
maybe with Golden Sun 4, we might get all three parties from all the games, AND maybe another set of four party members. 20 plus characters might be overkill, but the lingering threat of the Psnyergy Vortexes, and what else remains unknown. Maybe there is still lingering after effects of Apollo Tower's activation that needs looking into. Maybe the activation of Apollo Tower also uncovered some sort of new dungeon somewhere in the world. And there is still the question of Alex. Will he ever become playable? Will there be some sort of other threat that crops up that needs looking into? So many questions remain, so here's to hoping that something comes of the recent reacativation of the Golden Sun trademark.
I think a massive party could be a fun idea. I played the original Suikoden a couple years ago and they pulled it off pretty well so the concept can definitely work.
@37:20 "im leaning towards Dark Dawn having the best music out of the 3"
BOO THIS MAN !!!!
Lol!!! I definitely fall into the camp that thinks the music has just gotten better each game.
@@Zerbraxi 😅 it's all subjective
#respect 🕴🏾🤙🏾
Lost Age is the best to me .
I think my top 3 favorite tracks are probably 1 from each game. Venus Lighthouse from the original, the Boat Battle Theme from TLA, and the Isaac & Garret Party Battle theme in Dark Dawn. Not sure I'd fully commit to saying those are my 3 favorite, but that's my current state of thought.
The Golden Sun music is so damn good. I enjoy so much of Sakuraba's work in general but I especially love what he did with these 3 games.
18:05 maybe a Tomba! Remake?
I looked it up out of curiosity and it exists, dropping august first :D
Ya I'm so excited!
DD is a perfectly alright acceptable average JRPG game, but a sad lame excuse for a GS game. My reasoning, most characters were completely vapid, which is a very common problem with children of established heroes being constantly under their shadows, but that wasn't the only problem, we just have to accept and understand those children as they are just because how their parents were, which is BS. There was no emotional bond with most, no backstory, I say most because I loved Eoleo, Sveta and Himi better than children of the OG. And then the build up, they did it so damn much which was unnecessary because they failed miserably to wrap up. I would have accepted much less build up with a better wrapping. Once you start paying attention finally, the game ends abruptly, shadow part of the game was grim and miserable, which I don't mind in general, they probably tried to make a more mature story, but it wasn't mature in nature, it felt rushed and lack of well put thought. In my opinion, most fans felt like falling down from a great height or at least that's how I felt.
You make a great point about the kids. All of the children of original characters are incredibly weak, but the new characters get the development they actually need in order to be introduced as protagonists and it shows because those new characters are substantially better than the kids.
@@Zerbraxi I don't mind cliche either, after all we are talking about JRPGs, saving the world from inevitable destruction, but a lot of things don't make sense, like all the children of Vale took the one child policy from the CCP regime!! I mean Garet had a younger sister and brother, it felt like they planned about this game accordingly and had children for the plot. Lot of things didn't even feel natural, The only reason they blocked off Mind read psynergy for this long that I can think of was because of laziness, they didn't want to write extra lines for those characters. Which is also probably why they didn't include other OG characters and extra children. But why then they had to add those absurd stories that I think most players don't even remember!! Because I remember every single event from both GBA GS games. If anything, it wasn't a memorable experience at all.
i liked dark dawn, not as much as the first 2 games but i did like it
Same.
"It's not actually all that innovative" while it has the most complex rpg mechanics known to men to this day. Bet he didn't even know you can change classes or how.
I didn't know how to change classes as a kid, but I know how to do them now as an adult.
But, for most complex rpg mechanics ever....look I've grown more and more in love with the series, especially after doing this series. The Lost Age especially has gone from a game I skipped years ago, to one of my favorite JRPGs ever. But....most complex rpg mechanics known to man...no way. Dark Dawn is an interesting iteration on the Golden Sun series but all of the innovation happened in the first game. It was complex for handheld rpgs of its time, but other, more complex games already existed then. I'm confused though because something being more iterative rather than innovative isn't necessarily a negative so I'm surprised people take it as such.
@@Zerbraxi i was reefing to the og series. Not dark dawn. And I was just correcting you because you said it didn't stray too far from the norm. Meanwhile the og two games have so many mechanics running on the background that are insane. Just a lot of people do not use them or even know they exist so it looks pretty basic to them, when it is far far from normal rpg fanfare
@ubm91 the originals innovation though mostly stems from simplifying pre-existing ideas that existed in the genre for decades. That is without a doubt it's greatest strength and there's a twisted view that simplicity is bad and thus people often fight to defend it, claiming insane complexity, when the contrary is the primary reason for its success.
This video deserves more views
I appreciate that a lot. You're very kind.
I got Golden Sun Dark Dawn about a year after it came out. That was about six or seven years ago lol and I have hardly touched it. I need to go back and beat all three in one sitting however part of me wishes camelot would have worked on localizing shining Force 3 instead of dark Dawn. They tried too hard to make dark dawn appease a new generation of Golden Sun players while still having fan service put in for returning players. And unfortunately it shows.
Shining Force 3 scenario 1 is at least localized. I know it's not perfect but fan patches for scenario 2 and 3 do exist so that's cool.
I really need to cover Shining Force at some point. It doesn't get talked about nearly as some other SRPGs.
@@Zerbraxi woah you replied lol. Yeah I've been playing the SF3 translation patches and really enjoying them. Enjoyed your Golden Sun vids bro, keep up the great work! Earned a sub, bud.
@@MiBrCo4177 thank you so much! I try to reply to everyone. Chatting with people about games is my favorite part 😀
Great video! I have a feeling you'd really like Shining the Holy Ark (same dev team), if you haven't tried it yet.
I have not!! Though the Shining Series is something I've always craved playing after watching TotalBiscuits let's play of Shining Force 3 many years ago. I think I'd love that series
@@Zerbraxi the series was so good when it was still being developed by Camelot/SSP/etc, and StHA in particular plays like a first-person proto-Golden Sun dungeon crawler.
If i had one wish for the next golden sun game, it'd be this:
Let me use all available characters in combat. at the same time. I never liked having access to eight or more different characters, but only four of them ever being utilized at any given moment.
What i'd like to see is two rows of four, four in the front, and four in the back.
The four in the front could be your primarily melee characters, like Matthew, Tyrell, Eoleo, and Sveta. They all play normally.
The back four however could be your primarily spellcasters and ranged-attackers, like Rief, Karis, Himi, and Amiti. These characters can not use their basic "attack" abilities unless they have a bow or other ranged weapon equipped, but can still use psynergy freely.
The thing is that the front four basically act as guards for the back four. so an enemy can't attack Himi with a melee attack unless Tyrell, Eoleo, or Sveta are downed. Though they could still be damaged by AOE attacks and psynergy. You can also swap your characters from front to back or side to side at any time, so if Matthew is low on health, you can swap him with any of the back four characters so he can be more defended while healing and re-buffing.
This way all your characters are available in combat, and enemy forces can be larger and more challenging as well.
as it is, i almost never use mage-type adepts because the melee-type ones just have higher health, armour, and attack. This way the mages could be properly utilized without risk of being downed on the first enemy turn.
This is a really interesting system proposal. Honestly it sounds like it could get incredibly complex and allow for a ton of customization. Neat idea for sure!!
Great retrospective, thanks for making it.
I wonder what you would think of Beyond The Beyond, the previous Camelot RPG on PS1 that supposedly started their whole "the villains are a man and woman duo that you have to chase around" trope and I've heard at least one person say it's the worst JRPG ever made.
I just asked a buddy about this game after reading this comment because I remember him mentioning he's played it. His response was, "oh ya it's BAD!" LOL. I would definitely want to try it though, if for no other reason than to play through more of Camelot's log. Thanks for mentioning it!
2:24 I know it’s a Zelda game, but to this day the only Zelda game that sold worse than Minish cap is Spirit tracks.
Which is a shame since both are great >.
I have a very negative view of Spirit Tracks but I honestly don't know why. I need to give it another shot
Did he not dive into the djinn class complicity in Golden Sun? I'm confused by the comment it wasn't innovative. The puzzles they were also able to put in that game seemed more complex them most games before and around that time.
I'm pretty sure I did mention the Djinn class system, or maybe that was in my Lost Age video. 🤔 I love the Djinn system!
For the puzzles, I'm still glad that the Psynergy usage was simplified in Dark Dawn but the jump in puzzles was nothing compared to The Lost Age. Maybe I just played too many other games at the time that I found the Dark Dawn puzzles to be...fine.
I think my comment might not have been clear. I'm referencing your comment about the first game.@@Zerbraxi
@@killtac9978 Oh gotcha! Yeah, in more broad terms Golden Sun really isn't all that innovative. It definitely has some unique elements, Djinn specifically for example, but having a flexible class system in and of itself really isn't all that innovative by 2001. Final Fantasy had already done it twice by this point and Dragon Quest had developed a complex class system multiple times prior to Golden Sun's release as well. In fact, the lack of large innovation allowed Camelot to hyper focus on expanding and perfecting the rough edges of JRPG's at the time, and that approach clearly worked out wonderfully for them. A "lack of innovation" is hardly a negative. The same can be said to companies like Blizzard who built up their early library to a legendary status through iteration rather than innovation. Rareware is another that borrowed ideas and perfected them rather than creating new ones.
It might've been too broad of a statement about the original game, but I just didn't want to extrapolate out an entire 10 or so minutes regarding my feelings of how to definite innovation in a genre so complex as JRPG's. It's not to say Golden Sun never does anything new at all, but rather it's core strength wasn't that it added depth or complexity to JRPG's, but rather that it simplified and drilled down into the purest essence of the genre and that helped make it approachable for so many who may have never dipped their tow into it before.
I hope that clarifies the point a bit more.
Enjoyed the video! Might start playing Golden Sun 1 from next year! I actually enjoyed Dark Dawn. Didn't really like the points of no return. Also did anyone think of what a 3DS installment would have been like? I can only dream! Imagine what the gameplay would have been like on the main screen! I feel like that was a missed opportunity for a great game that would have sold well! It's all about sales at the end of the day. Dark Dawn arrived late in the DS cycle if I'm not wrong. Looking forward to Golden Sun 4 for Switch or Switch 2.
Considering how well JRPG's like Bravely Default, Fire Emblem, and Radiant Historia sold I think Golden Sun would've had a good chance. However, it's impossible to deny that Dark Dawn had a pretty negative impact at the time and perhaps all of this passed space between it's release and now is the "healing" that fans needed to be excited once again.
@@Zerbraxi yes you're right. Remember that Dark Dawn arrived late in the DS cycle. So people were getting excited about 3DS. Also the saturation of all the JRPGs. If they release a new one, they need to be confident that it'll make them some cash.
Funny you say the first boss music is great I saw years ago another review where there was a comment while that tune was playing: Oh God Sakuraba why????😂 I think it's so interesting how people like different things!
It really is! Art is a very funny thing.
There's a lot to criticize with the gameplay, but given how much of it is borrowed from TLA, it really just can't be bad in its own right, even with points of no return. I agree with your main conceit that the story is what holds it back.
And god, if i had to sum up what makes the story bad, it would be "sequel bait". Dark Dawn is too busy telling you "hey, look at the other cool stuff in this world! You might get to do that some day!" to actually let you interact with anything you care about, either from the past games or that seems cool.
Both the GBA games have problems with just deciding they aren't interested in addressing something they should, but they ultimately answer most questions they raise.
Dark Dawn didn't answer a single interesting question it raised or answer a single question raised by the previous two games
Yeah, I think you're on to something here. TLA especially gets distracted at times, but it's opening thesis, the final 2 lighthouses, is eventually solved and answered. Dark Dawn's primary narrative is hard to even quantify because I'm not sure which is the main quest due to how much back and forth there is with it's focus.
Alex is in fact not the villain.
When golden sun 4 comes out we will learn that Kraden is the ultimate evil.
you're a pretty funny guy zerbraxi
Thank you. I love to make people giggle.
You speak the Gospel.
Lol I don't even know what I'm saying half the time.
Thank you for being honest and I agree, Dark Dawn is a good game. It wasn't perfect but did it's best for the fans. No real complaints here, just play it and enjoy it for what it's worth. No negativity.
I do sympathize with players who have an aggressive hatred for it. I've had those feelings towards games in franchises I've loved but I just don't see Dark Dawn as anywhere near as bad as people have made it out to be. The gameplay especially is outstanding.