"7 years ago" My knees just cracked because of that statement. Its funny too because with mainly the Sandman I feel the fear of god enter me when I see one before remembering 5 seconds later "Oh ya its nerfed now". I've developed such a Pavlovian response to seeing it lmaooo.
I actually never noticed that the 'jarate-cloud' was removed from the Sydney sleeper, I thought I just wasn't hitting useful headshots or suffering from source bugs whenever I used it in the past couple of years. Damn...
Because mostly vavle thought 6 v 6 was the most imporant refence for balancing. However it became for nothing as Sydney sleeper is still banned. Funny how jarate and mad milk were not nerf despite them being over power in 6 v6 and even in casual. Again balancing for "e-sport" mindset has been a plague for many games
@@starmaker75Especially if it’s an e-sport only less than 1% of the community plays. Not to mention, TF2 was created for 12v12 matches not 6v6 where balanced weapons like the Flying Guillotine are OP and strong weapons like the Kunai aren’t that good.
@Dog-999i not only that but competitive/6 v 6 will have different and changing opinions on weapons. For example the running gloves were banned because of the idea of heavy going faster to mid was broken and boring. It probably the reason for the eviction notice nerf. However recently that player being over thinking and in practice, heavy was still not use for that. He was still used for defense and holding point and him going trying to capture was silly(as your better off with using scout, solider or demo) so that enivcton notice nerf was even dumber then we thought. Also again they didn't nerf the vaccintor as that a broken weapon not only in competitive but also in casual. So yeah I don't get some vavle balancing during meet your match to blue moon.
@Beginnerss I actually prefer to use it with the panic attack and gardener since jumping with it only costs you around 25ish health per rocket on average. That way Im still pretty mobile, pyros are less chaotic to fight and vaccinator medics are easier to take down consistently
I had ideas on how to change the Liberty Launcher, would the LL with a simple addition of "wen airborne, do 35% more damage", which is -15% plus 35% for plus 20% more damage when airborne? or do we need something else?
It's very all over the place, like it's trying to become everything at once and failed, while also being useless to combo with the Reserve Shooter like what
7:07 “However if the base jumper truly was such a problem, surely you could have banned it? In 6’s?” They did, before the nerf. In fact it is still banned today, so the nerf meant nothing.
I was there when the Reserve Shooter was at full power. It honestly wasn't that bad. Most of the time, I just thought. "Oh well, at least it wasn't W+m1." The main problem people had was that airblast always blasted people at the same predictable arc no matter where you aimed, making shots too easy. But they changed airblast in the Pyro update. Meaning if they fully reverted the Reserve Shooter it would still be harder to pull off than it used to be.
I definitely remember getting salty at Pyros using it specifically, albeit for a short time. Like, I had one or two bad matches worth of experience rather than developing an intense hatred throughout its reign of terror. Think that’s probably indicative of its actual state back then: a problem yes, but the hate was likely overblown. And yeah, the old airblast mechanics were definitely the problem more than the Reserve Shooter itself. I think back to my memories of the problem days-again, mostly just one match-and I remember the problem being that it was already over as soon as the Pyro pressed m2. Once you were caught in the airblast, there wasn’t really a way to get out of it before you were slaughtered, you just had to accept your fate. And then when you meet the Pyro again knowing they’re still running the combo, you’re basically in a wobbling predicament: simple as “don’t get grabbed (airblasted)”, much more complicated actually achieving that. A noob combo on top of a crutch combo then (if you consider those the same thing, fair enough), since that’s especially hard on new or casual players who aren’t prepared or interested in playing mind games just to approach you. Would be interesting to see what would happen if you reverted the Reserve Shooter on Pyro while keeping the new airblast. Might still have problems, but the biggest one is still dealt with.
There were some close calls that these updates fixed. Demoknight's Claymore was completed killed in Meet Your Match, only to be mostly reverted back to its previous design in Jungle Inferno. The Short Circuit was finally made decently balanced with the energy ball in Blue Moon. Blue Moon also fixed the Enforcer's resistance piercing in most situations, which actually gave it a functional niche, even if it is now well past its Gun Spy-boosting flat +20% damage era. Also Bonk was technically a design reversion, as it originally had a speed penalty once it wore off... which was removed in 2010. Surprised that this nerf didn't happen sooner.
Ill never forgive valve for gutting one of my favorite melee weapons for heavy. The eviction notice wasn't the most reliable or most useful melee for heavy, but it was the most fun one to use out of the bunch. There just wasn't any reason to make it a worse version of the GRU.
@@NoName...... That's the thing. The Amby IS a good weapon even still. It still rewards everything ti used to, just at a less punishing rate to the receiver of the damage. Before you could be dinked foe 102 damage from halfway across the map and there was not much you could do. It was genuinely as broken as Current Diamondback is, except a little less so since you needed to """aim""" with it. It had a very generous hitbox and if you got even slightly good with it, it was better than stock. Honestly it still IS better than stock, just not at every skill level now.
I feel like the Bison is a weird example where they kept trying to make the weapon more consistent with its damage but kept making mistakes with it. the loss of the multi hit makes sense when you consider just how much the damage... fluctuates with the multihits. They saw this idea by making it do more base damage then made it slower to compensate. You can almost see the idea, but it's really muddied by the other features. Then the reversion happened. And then because it uses flame particle hitboxes, it's hitbox is now smaller. What a weapon valve.
the hitbox is smaller, but the particle is bigger, so if it touches surfaces with the latter it still counts as hitting a wall, even if it really didn't
Finally got around to binging your stuff to get here and I gotta say I love this video as well. Also I swear to god the sydney sleeper must have some weird mandela effect because I swear I still see the jarate cloud from it
Remember when Tomislav was gutted for a while because of the hefty state of emergency balancing? (read: held by the last bits of 10 year glue with a string to carry on) Yeah, those times
I started really playing in Covid. I am now further from when I started than I was from the last update back then. And even then everyone knew we weren’t getting anything else
Whenever I am having a bad day, I just remember what Valve has done to the Bison, Sandman, and Eviction Notice. I then click my heels and go on about my morning with a smile on my face!
The apologism for the base jumper is ridiculous. Someone with perfect airstrafing is absurdly difficult to land shots on even with hitscan sometimes. It's way worse than the old atomizer which people didn't have a problem with nerfing.
ImperialCaleb is right, I've seen a few clips of people who knew what they were doing with the pre-nerf base jumper, and 2 dudes with direct hits could not land a single shot on him from medium range 😭😭 it's very very very strong in the right hands, and opal is wrong in saying it was only a problem in 6s
I feel like the Pomson should be an honorable mention. Had the same multi-hit mechanics as the Bison just with a little more damage and a utility effect that was nearly universally reviled. Except Valve kept nuking the piercing effect and obsessively kept the Spy cloak and Uber drain effects that not many people wanted, instead of letting it be a funny side-grade to the Shotgun.
Actually it's Valve AND Competitive players fault. Most of the fault lies with Valve but competitive players most certainly had an effect on weapon balance.
Not quite, Valve is squarely to blame, Mad Milk, Jarate, Natascha, Wrangler, and Vaccinator should've seen nerfs and yet they stayed unchanged somehow. I genuinely believe that they would've done more updates like Blue Moon, but with newer games having more prevelance and just being shiny, most of the team that got an earfull by the community just wanted to do something that'd likely be more enjoyable.
@@Sarmathal Caber itself was likely nerf for that, but it let you at worst trade a demoman for medic, which is universally good especially when you can fly through the air and get a sudden drop. The issue is that the caber should still be able to kill light classes since its max damage is 138 damage but the damage check is bugged so you'll occasionally oneshot. BASE Jumper is the only weapon I say your 100% right on because its change made no sense outside of that.
Personally as a Pyro main I hated using the old reserve shooter (it just felt so fucking cheap) but actually really enjoy the post Jungle Inferno one because it still is a reliable stock shotgun for the first 4 shots in terms of damage and pulling off a reflect into mini-crit shotgun shot is one of my favourite sources of dopamine only trumped by a critical third degree hit that strips people of their precious pocket medic. I kinda have a thing for under utilised weapons and both of these have a spot side by side in my "counter almost anything" loadout with a stock flame thrower. The Sydney sleeper nerf honestly was understandable as a easily spammable long range jarate was just devious, personally I wish they just kept the max timer on headshot so you can at least reliably SMG piss shot combo with it again because it was stupid fun.
That change is good but diabolic. Because the gas passer charges while your dead, this play style actively rewards you for playing wm+1ing with the plog and purposely dying so you can have gas when you response. This strategy is also the most predictable thing in the game and you as the pyro have no extra mobility when a land shark.
Through years,i saw how competitive 6v6 or class 9v9 kinda ruined many weapons what were fun in casual.... I was playing 9v9 a lot too on competitive tf but still i was kinda sad or most likely dissapointed that some weapons were nerfed into oblivion...
…thank you for letting me know the support sniper rifle I use to not feel as awful about struggling to even hit bodyshots has a good amount of that support utility and pity points stripped from it.
The Sandman and Reserve Shooter nerfs were absolutely necessary. Those weapons gave you almost no room to counterplay. Stun is a terrible mechanic and the Reserve Shooter Pyro combo gives me PTSD to this day.
Sandman got absolutely gutted. Perhaps it was too strong before, but it sure as shit isn't good now. You do less damage than the wrap assassin or cleaver if you hit someone, and you only partially slow them down for your trouble. And since they can shoot back, you can very easily get killed by the person you tried to stun due to you only having 110 health.
Imagine if Sniper wasn't Valve's favorite, the game would be actually enjoyable and best game of all time. You just have to kill the problem child and everything will be just fine.
the sandman + cleave combo was one of the reasons i started maining scout. Hearing about the glory days of the sandman brings a tear to my eye. I miss my boy
The last balance patch was actually the buff to Gas Passer and Neon Annihilator, which ended up being an indirect nerf to Axtinguisher which now has even less of a niche Therefore it is the new latest victim
@@quiver5756not only that, but you're using the Gas Passer over any other secondary which has a cooldown right at spawn. Reality is that the axtinguisher still has something it can do without lots of setup with other weapons.
There is actually still a niche for the reserve shooter in pyro, mainly by abusing flamethrower mechanics. By shooting fire at the ground in front of an enemy, then switching to the reserve shooter, shooting, then switching back and puffing as the fire particle leaves the target, you can effectively deal damage with both the degreaser and the reserve shooter at the same time. Lazy Purple even highlighted this combo in his video on the pyro.
the bison, and I'm ready to bet my right testicle on in, it's a case of some newer guy reading the document, getting to the "test showed bug, we isolated it, replicated it and made it the focus" and decided to "fix it". man I want my old bison. it was perfect also, the shortstop shove. that's so absolutely useless as it is. at least if it overrode the reload, you could use it to get a bit of space between reloads
Its sad to think that almost 90% of tf2's unlockables arnt usable anymore and 20% of that 90% are just barely functional for normal gameplay. Personally I think tf2's weapons were better when valve cared more about releasing fun new gimmicks for the classes rather then what fits for balance. Don't get me wrong, when combos are so broken they make it painful for everyone else to pay against should be nerfed, but most of the tf2 unlocks were fine and just needed some minor tweaks and changes instead of full blown overhauls that threw them down 10 flights of stairs into the nearest dumper.
I think the Sandman should work like the concussive grenades from Team Fortress classic but with a little bit more damage than the Shortstop shove does the speed of which he regains his ball for it should be changed as well. this could give the weapon a new life.
15:57 the answer is: less than 1% of the playerbase. The most remarkable pre-amby players that i can think of right now would be Hei, Desmond, Toast, Acooma and inso, maybe Woolen and even Stabby at one point as well. Literally nobody else back then was consistent enough, nobody else could utilize the gun on the same level as these guys.
I haven’t been too keyed into TF2 news specifically because there hasn’t really been that much of it since these last major updates. Aside from bot stuff. So when I saw the thumbnail, I wondered for a bit if Valve had done something like “here, have one more balance update after seven years, but after this it’s official, we’re not changing anything else” and I just hadn’t heard. I mean, I heard Nintendo did that with New Horizons, and I think I’d respect Valve at least a bit more if they came out and said they were done with balance updates rather than leave the Heave Update believers hanging all this time later.
I don't consider the Reserve Shooter bad for Pyro, it performs a similar role to the Panic Attack with faster switch, but you trade higher accuracy for -2 clip size. You can still counter bombing soldiers/demos with mini-crits.
As a pyro main who played through the Reserve Shitter era, and played with it a lot, it definitely needed to be nerfed. The up side of mini critting airborne targets extended to people who were simply jumping. It was nondiscriminatory, it did not care what the source of being airborne was just that you were not on the ground. They didn't change that until the Tough Break update either. I still think it just shouldn't have been added to Pyro, which wasn't even done until the Manniversary update, when the weapon itself was added in the Uber Update. They waited three and a half months before making it usable by Pyro, only to make it borderline unusable on that very class damn near 6 years later.
The ambassador never let the spy kill someone in "one shot" at any range ever UNLESS they were a scout or spy using a max health penalty weapon. As someone who DID use the long range feature of the ambassador SPECIFICALLY for that trait for the purpose of harassing VIPs on the enemy team, I've always been salty about it. If someone died to a headshot from it, that meant they were ALREADY HURT by someone else. However, being able to put exactly 102 damage on anyone at any range was incredibly useful. I'd often end pushes because no medic is willing to walk forward when he just took 102 seemingly from nowhere. It's not hard to understand why that may be seen as worse than just killing outright, but I thought it fit spy perfectly. To me, his role always was disruption. The potential to reason with your enemies by reducing them all under half health unless they are a heavy was incredibly powerful.
I will definitely miss the jarate cloud mechanic for the Sydney Sleeper. I still say the amby needed some kind of range nerf whether the spy mains agree with me or not. I do agree that the Diamondback also should've gotten the nerf.
I don’t really think Bonk can really be here given how the downside being completely by passable for the most part makes the nerf JI gave it extremely nominal
Never forget that Valve was genuinely scared enough by Overwatch's focus on competitive play that they pandered way too much to TF2's competitive scene, even though they did not reflect the opinions of the majority of the community. Poor quickplay, gone too soon...
I don't think it's fair to say that the base jumper was only problematic in comp 6s. I think the main issue with it (and probably the actual reason it got nerfed) was that a player who knew how to use it was very unfun to fight in any environment, not just comp. Sure, 90% of players didn't know how to use it in that way. But if one player knowing how to airstrafe was all it took for them to pubstomp by basically noclipping around the skybox and invalidating every projectile class they fought, I can see why that would be something worth nerfing. And for fighting it as a projectile class, it wasn't as simple as "just getting good", because the old base jumper invalidated one of the core skills that made it possible to be good at airshotting in the first place. Consistently landing airshots requires being able to predict where your target is going to be after your projectile's travel time. Most forms of air mobility in tf2 make you commit to a trajectory, so they can be punished by someone with the skill to make a good prediction. But if the base jumper let you stay far enough away and move fast enough to dodge a projectile after it was fired, there wasn't much a proectile class could do. Predictive shots are basically useless if the target can react faster than the travel time of the projectile. I'm not saying it deserved to be nerfed as hard as it was, I'm just saying there were probably more factors than comp 6s involved in valve's decision to rebalance a weapon that could almost complely hard counter two classes with very minimal counterplay.
Hey! Just found your channel, I really enjoyed the video! I stream TF2 a ton on Twitch and I always try to reach out to fellow creators in the community and support! Keep up the great work! Subscribed! ⛈💙
From my opinion (I started tf2 about 4 months ago) I think the sandman nerf wasn't too bad. I dont know if I hear this right but if you hit them with the ball they cant fire they're weapons and they are slow, That still is pretty lethal if you use it right.
Valve nerfed Amby and overnerfed Dead Ringer. They never should have touched Ambassador and should get nly have decreased Dead Ringer's cloak gain by 50% of what it had by that time.
Fun fanct the sandman still has the full stun on moonshot on mvm for some wacky reason also the bonk i think its fine most of the time just a few people remenber that you got slowdown and the other half they just bodyblock you just like the old version the base jumper nerf was dumb just because some comp player couldnt hit arishots valve decide to nerf it even tho the weapon was desing to do that and besides the biggest counter to the base jumper always was hitscan weapons but i guess was more easy nerf the weapon than just equip a shotgun
The eviction notice just makes me depressed. Why did you have to change a weapon made to do meme damage by making the heavy lose health? And why change it so it had consistency with the weapon it had similarities to but not to the Ambassador and Diamondback?
I get the impression that you're heavily underestimating the current sydney sleeper. Yes, it used to be more powerful, but I'd wager that it's relatively balanced right now. Sniper shouldn't be an AoE class. The jarate is by far the most powerful sniper secondary because it allows you to debuff multiple enemies at once. The last thing we need is for him to also be able to replicate this effect with his primary weapon upon landing charged bodyshots. The point of this weapon is to switch your focus from being the killer to the one assisting a kill, but it shouldn't switch the focus of sniper being a pick class. Even though you don't crit on headshots, you're still rewarded with extra damage. A fully charged headshot with this weapon deals 200+ damage which is enough to kill every class except the heavy, which doesn't even matter all that much since heavy is the slowest class in the game and will be a sitting duck if he's covered in jarate at 100hp. If you're only going for bodyshots, then it's a straight upgrade from stock. The skill floor for using this weapon is so low that you can top score in casual doing nothing else besides landing bodyshots on enemies. You'll either get a kill or an assist due to covering someone on piss. If the enemy has a scorch shot spammer, you can also get a few extinguish points in. I do it all the time when I use this weapon.
I've never understood the outrage for nerfing the base jumper. Its still decent. Hell I've seen a trolldier on a hightower server go 34-0 with the fucking base jumper. People just saw the smallest nerf imaginable and got butthurt over it, to the point that its still being discussed today. It was never a good item to begin with, only effective way to use the thing is on trolldier and it still does the job REALLY fucking well.
>"it was never a good item to begin with" Why nerf it then? The only reason people were angry about it is because the nerf removed something that made it fun, not necessarily because it made it worse.
@undvined idk why they nerfed it. They also nerfed the bison for no aparent reason. Valve likes to do that. They nerfed the eviction notice too for no reason. Its also wild that alot of people STILL blame the "sweaty comp community" for this nerf when they've had it whitelisted forever. Valve could have simply ignored them like they always ignore the tf2 community.
0:29 Hardly "playable". It was never playable in the first place. Sentries have completely broken the game since launch. No counter whatsoever. No real reason to play any other class if you're on defense.
![[TF2] Ranking Every Class's Most Annoying Weapon](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/60saCOCe5Eo/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Ranking Every Class's Most Annoying Weapon](/img/tr.png)
![เป็นไปได้ไหม - WanMai [Performance Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Eh5hItD4Mr0/mqdefault.jpg)
![[TF2] Slept On Weapons](/img/n.gif)
I accidentally reversed one or two of the clips in this video. This is what happens when you update your editing software. Sorry about that lol.
👍🏻
You just made us a little scavenger hunt!
Man i remember the stun sandman.They could just nerf the stun a bit more but nah they deleted the whole purpose of the weapon
The Baby Face's Blaster is sad
@@TealOpal I remember watching those and thinking there was something you meant to demonstrate or that it was an artistic choice.
Thanks Valve for adding the fucking electricity ball to the short circuit as your last balance change
As an engineer I use that ball to make people hate me 😂
"7 years ago"
My knees just cracked because of that statement.
Its funny too because with mainly the Sandman I feel the fear of god enter me when I see one before remembering 5 seconds later "Oh ya its nerfed now". I've developed such a Pavlovian response to seeing it lmaooo.
That feeling when kneeling surgery is tomorrow 😏
I never see the sandman used anymore
Opal, why are you teal?
He is Perry the platypus
@@MASRIDER777isn't he green (ish blue)
@ Idk but there’s a platypus controlling me
@@MASRIDER777 got record's on your fingers
Maybe he’s a synthetic
I actually never noticed that the 'jarate-cloud' was removed from the Sydney sleeper, I thought I just wasn't hitting useful headshots or suffering from source bugs whenever I used it in the past couple of years. Damn...
Because mostly vavle thought 6 v 6 was the most imporant refence for balancing. However it became for nothing as Sydney sleeper is still banned. Funny how jarate and mad milk were not nerf despite them being over power in 6 v6 and even in casual. Again balancing for "e-sport" mindset has been a plague for many games
@@starmaker75Especially if it’s an e-sport only less than 1% of the community plays. Not to mention, TF2 was created for 12v12 matches not 6v6 where balanced weapons like the Flying Guillotine are OP and strong weapons like the Kunai aren’t that good.
@Dog-999i not only that but competitive/6 v 6 will have different and changing opinions on weapons. For example the running gloves were banned because of the idea of heavy going faster to mid was broken and boring. It probably the reason for the eviction notice nerf. However recently that player being over thinking and in practice, heavy was still not use for that. He was still used for defense and holding point and him going trying to capture was silly(as your better off with using scout, solider or demo) so that enivcton notice nerf was even dumber then we thought. Also again they didn't nerf the vaccintor as that a broken weapon not only in competitive but also in casual. So yeah I don't get some vavle balancing during meet your match to blue moon.
Shout-out to the liberty launcher for never being noteworthy ever
It's fun with Mantreads and Whip.
@Beginnerss I actually prefer to use it with the panic attack and gardener since jumping with it only costs you around 25ish health per rocket on average.
That way Im still pretty mobile, pyros are less chaotic to fight and vaccinator medics are easier to take down consistently
I had ideas on how to change the Liberty Launcher, would the LL with a simple addition of "wen airborne, do 35% more damage", which is -15% plus 35% for plus 20% more damage when airborne?
or do we need something else?
It's very all over the place, like it's trying to become everything at once and failed, while also being useless to combo with the Reserve Shooter like what
@@drivanradosivic1357 that would be crazy op
The Eviction Notice nerf to drain Heavy's health makes me unfathomable upset and puzzled as to who at Valve decided it needed that.
Yeah. . . That's stupid:/
They probably thought it would make the gru obsolete.or they didn't a free movement option for heavy ?
@raptormage2209 even then why not just make its speed boost lower ?
@raptormage2209 I think it would have been better just to remove the speed boost while active and just gain a speed boost after punching an enemy.
@@LightsJusticeZ Maybe a short speed boost to reach your target would be nice ?
7:07 “However if the base jumper truly was such a problem, surely you could have banned it? In 6’s?”
They did, before the nerf. In fact it is still banned today, so the nerf meant nothing.
I'm pretty sure I said that exact thing approximately two lines before the line you quoted in the video
this line confused me too
I was there when the Reserve Shooter was at full power. It honestly wasn't that bad. Most of the time, I just thought. "Oh well, at least it wasn't W+m1."
The main problem people had was that airblast always blasted people at the same predictable arc no matter where you aimed, making shots too easy. But they changed airblast in the Pyro update. Meaning if they fully reverted the Reserve Shooter it would still be harder to pull off than it used to be.
I definitely remember getting salty at Pyros using it specifically, albeit for a short time. Like, I had one or two bad matches worth of experience rather than developing an intense hatred throughout its reign of terror. Think that’s probably indicative of its actual state back then: a problem yes, but the hate was likely overblown.
And yeah, the old airblast mechanics were definitely the problem more than the Reserve Shooter itself. I think back to my memories of the problem days-again, mostly just one match-and I remember the problem being that it was already over as soon as the Pyro pressed m2. Once you were caught in the airblast, there wasn’t really a way to get out of it before you were slaughtered, you just had to accept your fate. And then when you meet the Pyro again knowing they’re still running the combo, you’re basically in a wobbling predicament: simple as “don’t get grabbed (airblasted)”, much more complicated actually achieving that. A noob combo on top of a crutch combo then (if you consider those the same thing, fair enough), since that’s especially hard on new or casual players who aren’t prepared or interested in playing mind games just to approach you.
Would be interesting to see what would happen if you reverted the Reserve Shooter on Pyro while keeping the new airblast. Might still have problems, but the biggest one is still dealt with.
There were some close calls that these updates fixed. Demoknight's Claymore was completed killed in Meet Your Match, only to be mostly reverted back to its previous design in Jungle Inferno. The Short Circuit was finally made decently balanced with the energy ball in Blue Moon. Blue Moon also fixed the Enforcer's resistance piercing in most situations, which actually gave it a functional niche, even if it is now well past its Gun Spy-boosting flat +20% damage era.
Also Bonk was technically a design reversion, as it originally had a speed penalty once it wore off... which was removed in 2010. Surprised that this nerf didn't happen sooner.
Bonk is a nerf literally no one asked for, for a problem that didn't exist.
Ill never forgive valve for gutting one of my favorite melee weapons for heavy. The eviction notice wasn't the most reliable or most useful melee for heavy, but it was the most fun one to use out of the bunch.
There just wasn't any reason to make it a worse version of the GRU.
15:20 Note that not a single clip showing the Ambassador actually showcases below 102 damage on headshot.
The Ambassador is still a great weapon idk what this guy is talking about
what's your point?
@@NoName...... That's the thing. The Amby IS a good weapon even still. It still rewards everything ti used to, just at a less punishing rate to the receiver of the damage. Before you could be dinked foe 102 damage from halfway across the map and there was not much you could do. It was genuinely as broken as Current Diamondback is, except a little less so since you needed to """aim""" with it. It had a very generous hitbox and if you got even slightly good with it, it was better than stock. Honestly it still IS better than stock, just not at every skill level now.
I feel like the Bison is a weird example where they kept trying to make the weapon more consistent with its damage but kept making mistakes with it. the loss of the multi hit makes sense when you consider just how much the damage... fluctuates with the multihits. They saw this idea by making it do more base damage then made it slower to compensate. You can almost see the idea, but it's really muddied by the other features. Then the reversion happened. And then because it uses flame particle hitboxes, it's hitbox is now smaller.
What a weapon valve.
the hitbox is smaller, but the particle is bigger, so if it touches surfaces with the latter it still counts as hitting a wall, even if it really didn't
the bison and pomson nerfs made no sense considering they were ass BEFORE the nerfs
another thing to note is the slowdown effect of the bonk can be nullified by running diagnally, same principle also applied to the natascha
I'll never forgive valve for nerfing the eviction notice for no reason. Was my goto melee
Its such an easy fix too, just get rid of the healthdrain
Eviction notice is dang near unusable right now
Finally got around to binging your stuff to get here and I gotta say I love this video as well. Also I swear to god the sydney sleeper must have some weird mandela effect because I swear I still see the jarate cloud from it
Remember when Tomislav was gutted for a while because of the hefty state of emergency balancing? (read: held by the last bits of 10 year glue with a string to carry on)
Yeah, those times
I started really playing in Covid. I am now further from when I started than I was from the last update back then. And even then everyone knew we weren’t getting anything else
While some of the weapon nerfs were undertable. However why did the bison and notice get nerf despite them needing a buff more
But then you remember that slowdown effects aren't a real downside as you can just strafe move to negate them entirely for majority of them.
Whenever I am having a bad day, I just remember what Valve has done to the Bison, Sandman, and Eviction Notice. I then click my heels and go on about my morning with a smile on my face!
Sandman should just stun on moonshot
6:24 "WAAHHH I CANT AIM NERF THE BASE JUMPER!!! I DONT WANNA LEARN TOADJUST"
The apologism for the base jumper is ridiculous. Someone with perfect airstrafing is absurdly difficult to land shots on even with hitscan sometimes. It's way worse than the old atomizer which people didn't have a problem with nerfing.
The 7 Heavy mains just watching people complaining about the Base Jumper.
ImperialCaleb is right, I've seen a few clips of people who knew what they were doing with the pre-nerf base jumper, and 2 dudes with direct hits could not land a single shot on him from medium range 😭😭 it's very very very strong in the right hands, and opal is wrong in saying it was only a problem in 6s
@VeetiM sounds like skill issue to me
@@ImperialCaleb they could've just limited the strafing time, no need for more nerfing
I feel like the Pomson should be an honorable mention. Had the same multi-hit mechanics as the Bison just with a little more damage and a utility effect that was nearly universally reviled. Except Valve kept nuking the piercing effect and obsessively kept the Spy cloak and Uber drain effects that not many people wanted, instead of letting it be a funny side-grade to the Shotgun.
Actually it's Valve AND Competitive players fault. Most of the fault lies with Valve but competitive players most certainly had an effect on weapon balance.
Not quite, Valve is squarely to blame, Mad Milk, Jarate, Natascha, Wrangler, and Vaccinator should've seen nerfs and yet they stayed unchanged somehow. I genuinely believe that they would've done more updates like Blue Moon, but with newer games having more prevelance and just being shiny, most of the team that got an earfull by the community just wanted to do something that'd likely be more enjoyable.
@@Spiffyo Caber and BASE Jumper were definitely nerfed due to comp players bitching.
@@Sarmathal Caber itself was likely nerf for that, but it let you at worst trade a demoman for medic, which is universally good especially when you can fly through the air and get a sudden drop. The issue is that the caber should still be able to kill light classes since its max damage is 138 damage but the damage check is bugged so you'll occasionally oneshot.
BASE Jumper is the only weapon I say your 100% right on because its change made no sense outside of that.
Personally as a Pyro main I hated using the old reserve shooter (it just felt so fucking cheap) but actually really enjoy the post Jungle Inferno one because it still is a reliable stock shotgun for the first 4 shots in terms of damage and pulling off a reflect into mini-crit shotgun shot is one of my favourite sources of dopamine only trumped by a critical third degree hit that strips people of their precious pocket medic.
I kinda have a thing for under utilised weapons and both of these have a spot side by side in my "counter almost anything" loadout with a stock flame thrower.
The Sydney sleeper nerf honestly was understandable as a easily spammable long range jarate was just devious, personally I wish they just kept the max timer on headshot so you can at least reliably SMG piss shot combo with it again because it was stupid fun.
Teal, why are you opal?
righteous bison is valves punching bag.
for the balance change what about the neon annihaltor change
That change is good but diabolic. Because the gas passer charges while your dead, this play style actively rewards you for playing wm+1ing with the plog and purposely dying so you can have gas when you response. This strategy is also the most predictable thing in the game and you as the pyro have no extra mobility when a land shark.
its literally less effective than just using the axtinguisher @@diegodankquixote-wry3242
i have not taken my pills for quite a long time, therefore i believe that tf2 will get an update soon
Through years,i saw how competitive 6v6 or class 9v9 kinda ruined many weapons what were fun in casual....
I was playing 9v9 a lot too on competitive tf
but still i was kinda sad or most likely dissapointed that some weapons were nerfed into oblivion...
Joining tf2 around MYM made me feel like i was there for the sacking of rome
RIP base jumper 😭 it used to be a fun gimmick tool
At least with the Bonk speed nerf it’s pretty easy to negate since all slowdown effects can be removed by strafing left and right while running
0:25 has me genuinely on the verge of tears
…thank you for letting me know the support sniper rifle I use to not feel as awful about struggling to even hit bodyshots has a good amount of that support utility and pity points stripped from it.
Really enjoying the clip of that scout getting one-tapped by the ambassador and slamming his head into a wall
The Sandman and Reserve Shooter nerfs were absolutely necessary. Those weapons gave you almost no room to counterplay. Stun is a terrible mechanic and the Reserve Shooter Pyro combo gives me PTSD to this day.
I feel like the Reserve Shooter's nerf was fine, but the Sandman should've been tweaked to slow on a hit but only stun with a moonshot.
Sandman got absolutely gutted. Perhaps it was too strong before, but it sure as shit isn't good now. You do less damage than the wrap assassin or cleaver if you hit someone, and you only partially slow them down for your trouble. And since they can shoot back, you can very easily get killed by the person you tried to stun due to you only having 110 health.
Headshots are a terrible mechanic
Imagine if Sniper wasn't Valve's favorite, the game would be actually enjoyable and best game of all time.
You just have to kill the problem child and everything will be just fine.
This inspired me to hit up TF2 later today.
Thanks you Opal
4:45 About the sandman and Bonk's slow effect; it actually can be completelty negated by just spamming a & d
the sandman + cleave combo was one of the reasons i started maining scout. Hearing about the glory days of the sandman brings a tear to my eye. I miss my boy
What’s that in the thumbnail? The three classes I commonly play? Oh boy!
The last balance patch was actually the buff to Gas Passer and Neon Annihilator, which ended up being an indirect nerf to Axtinguisher which now has even less of a niche
Therefore it is the new latest victim
How exactly? The Axtinguisher is still far more reliable than the Neon in practically every situation.
@@quiver5756not only that, but you're using the Gas Passer over any other secondary which has a cooldown right at spawn.
Reality is that the axtinguisher still has something it can do without lots of setup with other weapons.
Bruh you serious ? Those weapons are still memes and there is 0 reason to use them over Axtinguisher.
There is actually still a niche for the reserve shooter in pyro, mainly by abusing flamethrower mechanics. By shooting fire at the ground in front of an enemy, then switching to the reserve shooter, shooting, then switching back and puffing as the fire particle leaves the target, you can effectively deal damage with both the degreaser and the reserve shooter at the same time.
Lazy Purple even highlighted this combo in his video on the pyro.
Where's the pompson?
You are the goat tftuber of this era
Imagine disregarding the best upside bonk has as a get out of jail free card
the bison, and I'm ready to bet my right testicle on in, it's a case of some newer guy reading the document, getting to the "test showed bug, we isolated it, replicated it and made it the focus" and decided to "fix it".
man I want my old bison. it was perfect
also, the shortstop shove. that's so absolutely useless as it is. at least if it overrode the reload, you could use it to get a bit of space between reloads
I am Pyro. Why am I still becoming real...
Damn, pyro just unlocked a new weapon called depression
tru
I eat crayons
@liliataneva5874 same.
Its sad to think that almost 90% of tf2's unlockables arnt usable anymore and 20% of that 90% are just barely functional for normal gameplay. Personally I think tf2's weapons were better when valve cared more about releasing fun new gimmicks for the classes rather then what fits for balance. Don't get me wrong, when combos are so broken they make it painful for everyone else to pay against should be nerfed, but most of the tf2 unlocks were fine and just needed some minor tweaks and changes instead of full blown overhauls that threw them down 10 flights of stairs into the nearest dumper.
Eh? On pretty much all classes most unlocks see plenty of use?
I think the Sandman should work like the concussive grenades from Team Fortress classic but with a little bit more damage than the Shortstop shove does the speed of which he regains his ball for it should be changed as well. this could give the weapon a new life.
One thing I’ve always wonder, how would the game feel if Crits themselves were given the Amby nerf?
15:57 the answer is: less than 1% of the playerbase.
The most remarkable pre-amby players that i can think of right now would be Hei, Desmond, Toast, Acooma and inso, maybe Woolen and even Stabby at one point as well.
Literally nobody else back then was consistent enough, nobody else could utilize the gun on the same level as these guys.
7 years ago.....
Wait it's been that long? Damn...
"competitive isnt a scapegoat for balance changes" Is a hot take, since every company wants to adhere to them
NGL I think the Bonk can still be at least useful as a diet Dead Ringer, something FishStick brought up in his vid iirc.
I haven’t been too keyed into TF2 news specifically because there hasn’t really been that much of it since these last major updates. Aside from bot stuff. So when I saw the thumbnail, I wondered for a bit if Valve had done something like “here, have one more balance update after seven years, but after this it’s official, we’re not changing anything else” and I just hadn’t heard.
I mean, I heard Nintendo did that with New Horizons, and I think I’d respect Valve at least a bit more if they came out and said they were done with balance updates rather than leave the Heave Update believers hanging all this time later.
I don't consider the Reserve Shooter bad for Pyro, it performs a similar role to the Panic Attack with faster switch, but you trade higher accuracy for -2 clip size. You can still counter bombing soldiers/demos with mini-crits.
As a pyro main who played through the Reserve Shitter era, and played with it a lot, it definitely needed to be nerfed. The up side of mini critting airborne targets extended to people who were simply jumping. It was nondiscriminatory, it did not care what the source of being airborne was just that you were not on the ground. They didn't change that until the Tough Break update either. I still think it just shouldn't have been added to Pyro, which wasn't even done until the Manniversary update, when the weapon itself was added in the Uber Update. They waited three and a half months before making it usable by Pyro, only to make it borderline unusable on that very class damn near 6 years later.
The ambassador never let the spy kill someone in "one shot" at any range ever UNLESS they were a scout or spy using a max health penalty weapon. As someone who DID use the long range feature of the ambassador SPECIFICALLY for that trait for the purpose of harassing VIPs on the enemy team, I've always been salty about it. If someone died to a headshot from it, that meant they were ALREADY HURT by someone else. However, being able to put exactly 102 damage on anyone at any range was incredibly useful. I'd often end pushes because no medic is willing to walk forward when he just took 102 seemingly from nowhere. It's not hard to understand why that may be seen as worse than just killing outright, but I thought it fit spy perfectly. To me, his role always was disruption. The potential to reason with your enemies by reducing them all under half health unless they are a heavy was incredibly powerful.
Righteous bison is a play on holy cow
I will definitely miss the jarate cloud mechanic for the Sydney Sleeper.
I still say the amby needed some kind of range nerf whether the spy mains agree with me or not. I do agree that the Diamondback also should've gotten the nerf.
The last balance change was this year's airblast patch, making pyro the biggest loser.
R.I.P. Ullapool Caber
I don’t really think Bonk can really be here given how the downside being completely by passable for the most part makes the nerf JI gave it extremely nominal
Never forget that Valve was genuinely scared enough by Overwatch's focus on competitive play that they pandered way too much to TF2's competitive scene, even though they did not reflect the opinions of the majority of the community.
Poor quickplay, gone too soon...
I don't think it's fair to say that the base jumper was only problematic in comp 6s. I think the main issue with it (and probably the actual reason it got nerfed) was that a player who knew how to use it was very unfun to fight in any environment, not just comp.
Sure, 90% of players didn't know how to use it in that way. But if one player knowing how to airstrafe was all it took for them to pubstomp by basically noclipping around the skybox and invalidating every projectile class they fought, I can see why that would be something worth nerfing.
And for fighting it as a projectile class, it wasn't as simple as "just getting good", because the old base jumper invalidated one of the core skills that made it possible to be good at airshotting in the first place. Consistently landing airshots requires being able to predict where your target is going to be after your projectile's travel time. Most forms of air mobility in tf2 make you commit to a trajectory, so they can be punished by someone with the skill to make a good prediction. But if the base jumper let you stay far enough away and move fast enough to dodge a projectile after it was fired, there wasn't much a proectile class could do. Predictive shots are basically useless if the target can react faster than the travel time of the projectile.
I'm not saying it deserved to be nerfed as hard as it was, I'm just saying there were probably more factors than comp 6s involved in valve's decision to rebalance a weapon that could almost complely hard counter two classes with very minimal counterplay.
on hit:
**BLEED**
Hey! Just found your channel, I really enjoyed the video! I stream TF2 a ton on Twitch and I always try to reach out to fellow creators in the community and support!
Keep up the great work! Subscribed! ⛈💙
From my opinion (I started tf2 about 4 months ago) I think the sandman nerf wasn't too bad. I dont know if I hear this right but if you hit them with the ball they cant fire they're weapons and they are slow, That still is pretty lethal if you use it right.
I think sydney sleeper is actually good for the charge rate, even with no aoe jarate.
15:45 Actually, it's better than day 1 Ambassador that only had mini crits on headshots 🤓
I'm awake, I'm awake...
Valve nerfed Amby and overnerfed Dead Ringer.
They never should have touched Ambassador and should get nly have decreased Dead Ringer's cloak gain by 50% of what it had by that time.
Guys am I stupid? Why was it not brought up that slowdown effects are fake and you can just mash A and D to make it not happen
Rip BFB never gor mentioned
Fun fanct the sandman still has the full stun on moonshot on mvm for some wacky reason
also the bonk i think its fine most of the time just a few people remenber that you got slowdown and the other half they just bodyblock you just like the old version
the base jumper nerf was dumb just because some comp player couldnt hit arishots valve decide to nerf it even tho the weapon was desing to do that and besides the biggest counter to the base jumper always was hitscan weapons but i guess was more easy nerf the weapon than just equip a shotgun
Ah what day is it today
It is the 11th of September 2024
What’s on the tf2 TH-cam site right now
Oh a video on an update from 2017
neddle jumpscary 14:16
The eviction notice just makes me depressed. Why did you have to change a weapon made to do meme damage by making the heavy lose health? And why change it so it had consistency with the weapon it had similarities to but not to the Ambassador and Diamondback?
I’m glad they didn’t nerf the vacc because that was the only answer to hackers. (Next to just leaving😅)
I get the impression that you're heavily underestimating the current sydney sleeper. Yes, it used to be more powerful, but I'd wager that it's relatively balanced right now.
Sniper shouldn't be an AoE class. The jarate is by far the most powerful sniper secondary because it allows you to debuff multiple enemies at once. The last thing we need is for him to also be able to replicate this effect with his primary weapon upon landing charged bodyshots. The point of this weapon is to switch your focus from being the killer to the one assisting a kill, but it shouldn't switch the focus of sniper being a pick class. Even though you don't crit on headshots, you're still rewarded with extra damage. A fully charged headshot with this weapon deals 200+ damage which is enough to kill every class except the heavy, which doesn't even matter all that much since heavy is the slowest class in the game and will be a sitting duck if he's covered in jarate at 100hp. If you're only going for bodyshots, then it's a straight upgrade from stock.
The skill floor for using this weapon is so low that you can top score in casual doing nothing else besides landing bodyshots on enemies. You'll either get a kill or an assist due to covering someone on piss. If the enemy has a scorch shot spammer, you can also get a few extinguish points in. I do it all the time when I use this weapon.
What about the gas passer buff?
BARTON FINK! BARTON FINK!
more like reserve POOPER
6:47 ayy you play strive? Whos your main character? And what do you think about the season 4 patch?
I haven't played in a while but I main Elphelt! I actually started playing because she was added and I like her.
@TealOpal yeah shes a really cool character! I actually got into ggst for basically the same reason but with potemkin instead
noooo, my poor pee pee rifle :(
What about the enforcer ?
I've never understood the outrage for nerfing the base jumper. Its still decent. Hell I've seen a trolldier on a hightower server go 34-0 with the fucking base jumper. People just saw the smallest nerf imaginable and got butthurt over it, to the point that its still being discussed today. It was never a good item to begin with, only effective way to use the thing is on trolldier and it still does the job REALLY fucking well.
>"it was never a good item to begin with" Why nerf it then? The only reason people were angry about it is because the nerf removed something that made it fun, not necessarily because it made it worse.
@undvined idk why they nerfed it. They also nerfed the bison for no aparent reason. Valve likes to do that. They nerfed the eviction notice too for no reason. Its also wild that alot of people STILL blame the "sweaty comp community" for this nerf when they've had it whitelisted forever. Valve could have simply ignored them like they always ignore the tf2 community.
@@wizard_4194 True that
Opal why are you Opal?
You can blame comp players for most of these nerfs btw lol
Can i have a dollar for liking the sandman
Please i beg you
nuh uh
Opte, why are you alal?
Not particularly relevant to the video but what is the origin of the "make up mind" in your intro?
0:29 Hardly "playable". It was never playable in the first place. Sentries have completely broken the game since launch. No counter whatsoever. No real reason to play any other class if you're on defense.
Guys! Guys. Do you smell that?
It wreaks of some serious skill issue.