@@stakkzip6638 How could anyone else put up a review when Nakamichi only gave him the subs to review and not someone who actually knows how to review subs objectively? He’s Nakamichi’s go to guy. Let Andrew review them. $2400 for 2 12” 30hz subs? Are you for real?
Me too... paying $998 for the q990d made me very happy and now I enjoy the sound with no worries where to place the ONE sub... paying $5K for the Dragon is insane because you don't get what you pay for.
@@brosmile9388 wrong! if that was the case, Nakamichi would have made sure the subwoofers would actually play down to 20hz or made it so that existing dragon customers can buy the sub for a lower price
Good job Daniel. Sub position vs listener position. 2 in-room variables. Even if you put microphone few centimeters from the driver, if you are in the wrong mode, you will not measure or hear some modal frequency. It would be nice to have some kind of well know subwoofer which has CEA2010 meassured in your room and sub position as a reference to compare with whatever other sub comes your way. Then we can see what it can or cannot do.
I feel like these subs should have been the original OEM subs. I’m so disappointed in the frequency range from this early review however. Thanks for the honest preview. Perhaps Nakamichi should’ve gone big straight away to 15” or 18” ported subs instead. I know 20hz isn’t everything in the audio world, but it definitely brings in that extra wow factor that I expect from the Dragon namesake. I do like that it’s modular though… hopefully they get it right some day.
I'm in the same position I refuse to buy anything more nakamichi based on them knowingly sending us subs that were not on what they claimed and then releasing a fix (12in sub) only to charge us for it again.
Thanks for this early peak at the updated subs for this system. I certainly prefer the look of these over the 8's. Based on your initial findings, seems like this entire system may do well in a small to medium sized space.
Let me try this again - first attempt a few hours ago evaporated, and this is from memory, so.: There are a lot of moving parts in any well executed multi-channel surround system, and to fail to provide a minimum of in-room auto calibration /EQ, or even better, the tools for advanced users to implement the types of fine tuning described elsewhere herein is at the least shortsighted. I’m certain there are DIY multiple sub projects that equal or surpass the performance and functionality to that which the OG Dragon promised, and even the $3000 optional addition seems by your brief measurements to fail to achieve. Regardless of whether you straddle or or are firmly ensconced on either side of the hipster glasses wearing Recovering Audiophile fence, I’ve yet to see anything that refutes the observations in Andrew’s review and follow up.
A good number of folks in the Dragon community have modded the electronics out of Nak's 8"s and connected them to a SVS PB1000 or other sub. Any chance you would try comparing that mod to a Nakamichi 12" subs? The flexibility of control with the SVS and reduced cost seem compelling.
Pay less for a way better sub? Why would he ever stab Nakamichi in the back? Only smart people are fed up with Nak and are going the SVS route, so don’t expect him to do that
@@HellBoundSinnerwhat’s the mod? Got a link to a post or anything? Just curious cuz I decided instead of paying for more Nakamichi stuff I’d eventually save for a full system and I was looking at full SVS system. But with dual PB 4000
Thank you so very much for doing a short update. I am waiting for your full review before i actually bit. Hopefully, could you please add some really good sound bites for music for rock and metal, please, and thank you for all you do. Also i am pretty sure someone reached out from the owners group about the other mod that was created as well😅😊
So, from looking at these preliminaries, there is no reason to reconnect my NAKAMICHI and to continue to use my Sinos Arc with two subs and the illegal setup as well as my Ambeo with the attached SVS sub.
at this point.. WHO is the Nakamichi dragon FOR? you are literally in the "Bought a 9 channel klipsch AVR system at best buy and had it professionally installed by geek squad" territory price wise..
I managed to demo both the Dragon and the quads after trying to make a decision which route to go down based on you saying these two seem to be the best of the best. Damn, the Dragon gets loud but that is all is has going for it. Not sure how anyone can say that is what makes it good. Coming from a 7.1.4 wired system, the Dragon is absolutely awful. The separation is bad, Atmos is almost non existent and if you actually know what certain scenes and soundtracks should sound like, well this isn't it. Everything is so direct down the middle and in your face that it makes an unpleasant listening experience. The quads on the other hand did a very good job and it is where my money will be going as it feels like it places you in the movie and the separation was fantastic (speakers were 3m apart with a Sony A95L as the center). As an example, I tested the opening raining market scene on the original blade runner. With the quads you could hear all the ambient effects, people's conversations, electronics devices all going off, all around you. The dragon on the other hand lacked all of these details and the rain storm just overpowered everything else. Another scene for placement tested was Dr strange multiverse of madness. The scene where Wanda gets trapped and she throws the red fire ball type thing. On the quads, it bounced absolutely all over the room with zero gaps, on the dragon is was just mediocre and you could feel the missing gaps. I can see why they have also tried to bring new subs out, the current ones are just laughable. I only had the SW3 to test with the quads and that was hitting harder than the four (two) 8 inch Dragon drivers. Also tried both devices without their subs just to try see how the speakers and bar would perform. While the quads certainly benefit from a sub, you still got some form of bass from the speakers. Dragon on the other hand, erm hello where is the bass? Does the bar even have any woofers inside it... My oh my it was absolutely pathetic. Music, I won't even go there, the quads win this hands down there is absolutely zero contest. I'm sure these new subs will definitely help but running into the 6000 mark to try and fix the bass issue is just stupid. The sheer size and weight of these things and the fact you say they cannot even play below 30hz is also laughable. I'm not in anyway trying to bash the Dragon even if this response seems like it, however, if you want good quality sound and not sound that is just loud with non existent bass, then definitely go buy something else. If I was a current owner, I'd personally not be giving Nakamichi anymore money for what seems like false advertising once again. As always Daniel, thanks for taking the time to do these reviews etc but this time round it's a hard pass on the Dragon.
Thank you for sharing. I am quite intrigued about the quads. So many people love it, but it is hard to think something without center channel can dynamically create one.
I would be PISSED if I bought the dragon sound bar, then fast forward a year later to be kinda told, if you want to experince the full impact of your new sound bar, you need our New subwoofers, and it will cost you xyz..
Amen. Just sad to see folks spend so much for the OG system to find out that your subs "bottom" out and you need to pay another $1200 per sub. I need to buy stock into Naka. 😆
Thank you so much for the great review. So now that you had time to really play with these subs, in your personal opinion do you think they are worth the price? Do they perform at the same level as other subwoofers from other manufacturers at the same price bracket? Thx again
20 Hz for a 12" sub is tough to reproduce without DSP. Both of my ported 12's (a Mirage and Harman Kardon) had a big drop-off in audible output below 25 Hz, despite massive cone excursion movement and corner placement.
I’d say in practical terms 30hz is where it’s at … a robust response below 30 is a nice to have but by 20 it’s not really audible anymore - just perhaps physical and there is not much content that calls for that range. The 12’s clearly have a natural resonance at 30hz
What I am very curious to know is if you can order 1 or 2 of the new 12" subs with a brand new purchase of the dragon, or are you obligated to only be able to buy it with the original subs, and then add on to that... Because that would be redundant and kills the interest for many. I'd like to start with one 12" and maybe add a 2nd one down the line, but I have no interest at all in the original subs.
@neverenoughtech That's great to know, thank you. It's a coin toss between them vs Sony's Quad with a Sub. If Sony drops a new Sub, that's definitely more of a setup to go with for my environment. Thank you for your time, much appreciated.
At $5800 and $8500 we are entering the Bang and Oulfsen soundbar bar category especially in price. The difference is Andrew Robinson loved the Bang and Oulfsen 😊
I have a 12 inch sub from xtz that cost me 800usd new. It plays to 20hz with 5db drop sealed and can go even lower with one of the ports unplugged. With a lot of setup/tuning options that the Nakamichi can't even match. Super sad Emberassing nakamichi can't deliver.
Im not sure how charging an amp for 2 days would do anything good. Was he saying to keep the amp on and running for 24 hours? I don't think that would have any noticeable audio effect. I can see the logic behind running the subwoofer, as it is a material that will change over time. still dont think i would be able to tell an audio difference.
I’m sure you’ll address how two 12” subs compare to two original ones, and mix one front one back of each in the 4 sub test. And if you think 4 12” subs will be the way to go. Keep up the good work.
@@neverenoughtech I missed the tab. 😅 $5599. for duel subs setup is a far cry from the $3200. price tag of the original setup (which was actually $4k). The question now: Is it worth it over an AVR setup?
He’s never going to do it or at least say that you can do way better for much less than these overpriced Nak subs. I will say thank you for helping so many people on Avs save money and not give Nakamichi another penny!
So wait with the 4 subs you now have an 11.8.6 system? Or is it .12 due to the 12”?:) stating the lowest frequency of a sub without the associated rolloff point by the manufacturer is a red flag on its own. Sure you can state the sub reaches 20hz but at -20db!
My sense is it’s still 11.4.6 as the 8 twin subs no longer seem to be individually selectable when paired alongside the 12’s… I’ll clarify in the full review
Once I understood what it was ,I seriously struggled to understand the point of the Dragon even in the 8" persona - now with the 12" subs, it's even more of a mystery to me - at the price they are asking for this thing, you can get a pretty decent integrated atmos amp and speaker setup that will give a wider front sound stage - an area in which all sound bar systems are limited - there are literally dozens of options - AND, it will probably be less huge and ugly. The point of a sound bar and wireless speaker setup is, in my opinion, to blend into the background of a living space where you can't get a full on home theater setup past your significant other - and the Dragon utterly fails at that.
@@Beer_Dad1975 The point of a soundbar to me is to make your life easier. I wouldn't say it is about size. Is about getting sound out of the box with very minimal work to do. Which in this case the dragon actually has way more manual settings than most soundbar people would like.
I ordered 2 of the 12's. I was anticipating that they would be more impressive at 20 hertz. Nakamichi should have done 15's instead of 12's. Not thrilled to shell out an additional $2600 (w/ tax) for the subs the Dragon should have shipped with originally, but that's the price of early adoption. Hoping the full review reveals lots of good news with these subs that justify the upgrade and pricing.
@@pulDag I thought about this, but I'm not sure there would be a business case for Nakamichi to do it. Once people spend the extra to pick up the 12's, whatever that market size is, the market for 15's would seemingly be smaller. So I decided to just get the 8's upgraded and not wait for something that might not happen. Just wish they had picked 15's instead of 12's.
Subs can be used informally to mean a component or unit. But yes 6 subwoofers and two passive radiators are supported. My sarcasm sensor is broken so I’m not sensing any sarcasm
My favorite reviewer, I started with the Nakaimichi shockwafe SSE ARC 9.2.4, loved review of Samsung 990 C, and the Sony Quad theatre. Now waiting for the review subwoofers 😮
This is the best sound bar you can buy. Period. Is it over priced? Yeah sure. There is a reason why there is a love/hate relationship with this. If its a 4000 usd junk nobody would talk about it. Nobody would buy. People bought it because its exceptional and its much beyond what you hear from a regular sound bar system. Is it 4000 better ? Now that depends on the perspective. You cannot expect a sound bar to be 4000 times better after a certain point. It will only be marginally better for a certain extent. But does it make a difference? Hell yeah. You gotta hear it to believe it. And i have had it all
No it's not. It just gets loud and that it is but clueless people will believe that is what good sound is and it's false. The soundbar alone can't even play below 160hz. The 8" subs don't go below 40hz even though advertised at 20hz. The new subs now won't even go below 30hz yet once again advertised at 19hz. By this point you've spent $6000 on a system that will have localised bass and gaps missing in the mid range. Go compare what $6000 gets you in the home cinema world and you'll see how useless this device actually is.
@@sethwestscoot9810 you sound like some reviewer’s wife who’s butt hurt and coming here with a fake account to justify your husbands lack of ears. With that being out of the door let me ask you this, are you a current dragon owner ? ( no bulshyt of oh i had i returned or i heard at a friends house ). I own the dragon and i have a full blown sonos / sennheiser max and dedicated movie theater at my basement with a dedicated svs system. Cost twice the dragon. While dragon is not in the same level it competes head to head with svs. Volume up ? No i rarely goes above 15. Yes the included 8 inch subs are weak at low freq but the amount of material you get at 20 is low and when its above 40 its same like you sat in a dolby theater. Ppl hate on things they cannot afford. Same like how some goes and chant the mantra on any other brand. Nobody stopped you from setting up a home cinema system with your money from wires hanging all around you.
@@azuezx619 I own the Dragon and have added 4 SVS PB1000 subs. I agree whole heartedly with what sethweestcoot9810. Nakamichi is a shit company that didn't deliver what it promised. It leveraged the name for a quick money grab. Launched a fix and is trying to make the old customers pay to get what they they were getting in the 1st place. My system sounds good now, but the main bar NEEDS a strong sub or two to fill in the gaps laid by the main bar. Face it, the guys that were looking to buy the best got duped...I am "guys" lol.
That’s not the message I was trying to portray - there’s just not much going on physically or auditory at 19hz which is technically not audible to most humans - I wanted to set a sober expectation about 19hz - if the expectation was a bunch of physicality. 20Hz is I’d say infrequently called on in movies and music - the capability to play 30hz well I’d say is practically far more important as that’s a much more common frequency in movies and such. It seems the sub has a natural 30hz resonance
@@neverenoughtech It would make sense, especially if the design and tuning philosophy share similarities with REL subwoofers. REL subs are known for their focus on musicality and seamless integration, prioritizing clarity and detail over sheer output. If nakamichi 's 12-inch subwoofers are following a similar design approach, it could explain the tuning choices aimed at delivering a more refined bass experience, even if that means certain SPL trade-offs at the lowest frequencies.
@@neverenoughtechMaybe not 20 as such itself but there are plenty of scenes in movies in the 22-27 range which do make a big difference. Why advertise once again if you can't hit the numbers. What's next Dragon owners have to spend another $3000 to finally get the system to what was advertised. 🤣
I keep reading War of the Worlds and Blackhawk down as examples. - however The subs competency at 30hz will be of far greater practical importance for the vast majority of content moments
@@neverenoughtech The opening moments of Live Die Repeat (Edge of Tomorrow) is apparently a sub killer. Would love to see you test these subs against that (Carefully!)
@@neverenoughtechYeah, but then when you have a bar that rolls off at 160-200hz do you really want the subs to have such a high crossover for their size.
@@neverenoughtechand two 80 pound subs is 🫣 Also paired with two large 8" ones if you decided to keep those 🤣 At least the mod box you can hide it behind the sub itself and still buy something like an SVS-1000 for half the price which actually hits its marketed numbers.
Seems to be the case - my mic is rated for 20Hz … my kid couldn’t hear it - he has the best hearing I have access to. And I can go down to 0.00001 hz (for the record)
I dont get this industry and its customers... Subs are the easiest speaker to make in the world. Bass in room is hard to get right though. So why in the hell buy a system that dont allow you to "pair" any sub, or subs? Why is there no standard for wireless sub signals? Why dont customers dont seem to care? Its so god damned stupid. I might get it when there is magic DSPs involved. But even then, you are measuring the room. A DSP can do a test tone on ANY sub and figure out its limits AND your room characeristics. As long as you dont just some LG computer kit sub that really is a mid range, the sub it self should almost be a non factor. This system seems dump as a donkey so why this artificial choice between two subs? They wanna be Apple or Sony? Well, they arent. They could just sell a wireless signal adapter, sell their own subs and also let customers choose any sub they want. Its a stupid system that fits almost none in the market. Review done. (Ps I have done almost no research so dont trust me. But also, think in it.) 😂
The whole Dragon series is a bust! It might sound good, but it'll never be great. There are systems far below its price level that sound far superior to it. And all the gaslighting about their claims that turn out not to be true AT ALL and then making every excuse for them is just.... Disappointing and quite frankly calls your, now to me, Opinion rather than expertise, into question. Just disappointing. Just call it as it is... It ain't worth anywhere near the money. You're paying for an old pedigree for a product that is half baked and has QC problems as well the materials being subpar. Which means it sucks!
A bunch of generalities and vagaries - I don’t see this system as simply as you - what “excuses” are you talking about? I make these reviews as fair as I can and I don’t belong to a camp which seems to make you and those who completely disagree with you displeased.
@@neverenoughtech Yes but does it actually Sound Good? Right out of the box? Or do you have to spend weeks messing with it to get it to sound decent? Those are easy questions to answer. Yes they sound great or no the sound is not up to expectations. I once had a pair of Pioneer speakers that I swore sounded good. I paid for them and was proud of my purchase. My friends on the other hand found the speakers wanting. And one friend who swore over his Klipsch speakers told me to come over and have a listen. I was blown, the Klipsch weren't perfect but they sounded way better for less money. Way better. I went home listened to my speakers one last time and shook my head and went on the hunt for new speakers again. Could it be the pride in your purchase is stunting your ability to be partial and unbiased?
Dude, you need to stop reviewing as you’re not doing people with no knowledge any favors. First $4000 and now another $2400? This is another example of Nakamichi’s inability to create what they market and people like you(the shills)are doing a real disservice. These 30hz subs are $5-$600 subs at best and can’t be used for anything else, but the smarter people who wish they could return the dragon got smart and bought 2 SvS pb1000 pros. I can’t wait for your next happy go happy review on how good and solid they are.
@@Keithking4337 I love my dragon and can’t wait to buy me to 12 inch subs so to answer your question Nakamichi does have a market the dragon sounds amazing salty internet guy
I don't think this sub is worth the hype or the crazy price. The 8" subs are a joke, i hated the ported air sound when it played low frequency contents.
I’ve been WAITING for you to put this up before anyone else would.
I succeeded - more to follow
@@stakkzip6638 How could anyone else put up a review when Nakamichi only gave him the subs to review and not someone who actually knows how to review subs objectively? He’s Nakamichi’s go to guy. Let Andrew review them. $2400 for 2 12” 30hz subs? Are you for real?
@@Keithking4337 have you watched this video?
We need the soonish review b4 the next pre orders open up in 2 days, Nice initial overview
Can always pre-order and cancel later if needed.
Dragon 12" Sub Big Observations: Not a Full Review
th-cam.com/video/fCCLbrkQLec/w-d-xo.html
Happy that this was and is out of my scope and budget. Super happy with my samsung q990d
Me too... paying $998 for the q990d made me very happy and now I enjoy the sound with no worries where to place the ONE sub... paying $5K for the Dragon is insane because you don't get what you pay for.
@@reuveng1960 Looks like you get exactly what you pay for.
@@brosmile9388 wrong! if that was the case, Nakamichi would have made sure the subwoofers would actually play down to 20hz or made it so that existing dragon customers can buy the sub for a lower price
Expecting, waiting patiently, positively thinking and looking forward on your LONG REVIEW MAYBE AN HOUR REVIEW of the Dragon with 4 12" Subwoofers!
My day just got a whole lot better with this review coming out
🙂
Good job Daniel.
Sub position vs listener position. 2 in-room variables. Even if you put microphone few centimeters from the driver, if you are in the wrong mode, you will not measure or hear some modal frequency. It would be nice to have some kind of well know subwoofer which has CEA2010 meassured in your room and sub position as a reference to compare with whatever other sub comes your way. Then we can see what it can or cannot do.
Been waiting for this review!
This channel is turning into one of my favorite audio and sound system reviews. I really enjoy your videos. Keep up the good job!
Many thanks!
I feel like these subs should have been the original OEM subs. I’m so disappointed in the frequency range from this early review however. Thanks for the honest preview. Perhaps Nakamichi should’ve gone big straight away to 15” or 18” ported subs instead. I know 20hz isn’t everything in the audio world, but it definitely brings in that extra wow factor that I expect from the Dragon namesake. I do like that it’s modular though… hopefully they get it right some day.
I'm in the same position I refuse to buy anything more nakamichi based on them knowingly sending us subs that were not on what they claimed and then releasing a fix (12in sub) only to charge us for it again.
Hoping that soonishy time is this weekend haha. Always appreciate the details!
Me too!
Thanks for this early peak at the updated subs for this system. I certainly prefer the look of these over the 8's. Based on your initial findings, seems like this entire system may do well in a small to medium sized space.
Let me try this again - first attempt a few hours ago evaporated, and this is from memory, so.:
There are a lot of moving parts in any well executed multi-channel surround system, and to fail to provide a minimum of in-room auto calibration /EQ, or even better, the tools for advanced users to implement the types of fine tuning described elsewhere herein is at the least shortsighted.
I’m certain there are DIY multiple sub projects that equal or surpass the performance and functionality to that which the OG Dragon promised, and even the $3000 optional addition seems by your brief measurements to fail to achieve.
Regardless of whether you straddle or or are firmly ensconced on either side of the hipster glasses wearing Recovering Audiophile fence, I’ve yet to see anything that refutes the observations in Andrew’s review and follow up.
A good number of folks in the Dragon community have modded the electronics out of Nak's 8"s and connected them to a SVS PB1000 or other sub. Any chance you would try comparing that mod to a Nakamichi 12" subs? The flexibility of control with the SVS and reduced cost seem compelling.
I’ve been hearing this. Not opposed to looking into it.
Pay less for a way better sub? Why would he ever stab Nakamichi in the back? Only smart people are fed up with Nak and are going the SVS route, so don’t expect him to do that
@@neverenoughtechI did the modification which was super simple and I have two SVS PB-1000 Pros hooked up and what a difference from the horrible 8s.
@@HellBoundSinnerwhat’s the mod? Got a link to a post or anything? Just curious cuz I decided instead of paying for more Nakamichi stuff I’d eventually save for a full system and I was looking at full SVS system. But with dual PB 4000
@@Keithking4337 is it smart to spend 4 grand on the dragon and then buy a couple of svs subs?
Thank you so very much for doing a short update. I am waiting for your full review before i actually bit. Hopefully, could you please add some really good sound bites for music for rock and metal, please, and thank you for all you do. Also i am pretty sure someone reached out from the owners group about the other mod that was created as well😅😊
So, from looking at these preliminaries, there is no reason to reconnect my NAKAMICHI and to continue to use my Sinos Arc with two subs and the illegal setup as well as my Ambeo with the attached SVS sub.
at this point.. WHO is the Nakamichi dragon FOR? you are literally in the "Bought a 9 channel klipsch AVR system at best buy and had it professionally installed by geek squad" territory price wise..
Well I’ve been told by some of the high end AVR folks that the dragon is the casual cheap bedroom option
@@neverenoughtech apparently i am "upper-middle-class white dude-ing" wrong.. *shrug*
I managed to demo both the Dragon and the quads after trying to make a decision which route to go down based on you saying these two seem to be the best of the best. Damn, the Dragon gets loud but that is all is has going for it. Not sure how anyone can say that is what makes it good. Coming from a 7.1.4 wired system, the Dragon is absolutely awful. The separation is bad, Atmos is almost non existent and if you actually know what certain scenes and soundtracks should sound like, well this isn't it. Everything is so direct down the middle and in your face that it makes an unpleasant listening experience. The quads on the other hand did a very good job and it is where my money will be going as it feels like it places you in the movie and the separation was fantastic (speakers were 3m apart with a Sony A95L as the center). As an example, I tested the opening raining market scene on the original blade runner. With the quads you could hear all the ambient effects, people's conversations, electronics devices all going off, all around you. The dragon on the other hand lacked all of these details and the rain storm just overpowered everything else. Another scene for placement tested was Dr strange multiverse of madness. The scene where Wanda gets trapped and she throws the red fire ball type thing. On the quads, it bounced absolutely all over the room with zero gaps, on the dragon is was just mediocre and you could feel the missing gaps.
I can see why they have also tried to bring new subs out, the current ones are just laughable. I only had the SW3 to test with the quads and that was hitting harder than the four (two) 8 inch Dragon drivers. Also tried both devices without their subs just to try see how the speakers and bar would perform. While the quads certainly benefit from a sub, you still got some form of bass from the speakers. Dragon on the other hand, erm hello where is the bass? Does the bar even have any woofers inside it... My oh my it was absolutely pathetic.
Music, I won't even go there, the quads win this hands down there is absolutely zero contest.
I'm sure these new subs will definitely help but running into the 6000 mark to try and fix the bass issue is just stupid. The sheer size and weight of these things and the fact you say they cannot even play below 30hz is also laughable. I'm not in anyway trying to bash the Dragon even if this response seems like it, however, if you want good quality sound and not sound that is just loud with non existent bass, then definitely go buy something else. If I was a current owner, I'd personally not be giving Nakamichi anymore money for what seems like false advertising once again.
As always Daniel, thanks for taking the time to do these reviews etc but this time round it's a hard pass on the Dragon.
Thank you for sharing. I am quite intrigued about the quads. So many people love it, but it is hard to think something without center channel can dynamically create one.
I would be PISSED if I bought the dragon sound bar, then fast forward a year later to be kinda told, if you want to experince the full impact of your new sound bar, you need our New subwoofers, and it will cost you xyz..
I addressed every emotion on this video
That’s just the nature of technology. Something newer and better is always going to come out next year. That’s life now.
Amen. Just sad to see folks spend so much for the OG system to find out that your subs "bottom" out and you need to pay another $1200 per sub. I need to buy stock into Naka. 😆
It seems sadly it will still not have full impact (weak mandatory 20 Hz).
@@pulDag the amount of times tv/movies use 20hz is only about 5% of the time. so it's not a big deal
When will you be putting out the full review? Thanks
Not before preorder but here are the major takeaways - Dragon 12" Sub Big Observations: Not a Full Review
th-cam.com/video/fCCLbrkQLec/w-d-xo.html
Thank you so much for the great review.
So now that you had time to really play with these subs, in your personal opinion do you think they are worth the price? Do they perform at the same level as other subwoofers from other manufacturers at the same price bracket? Thx again
I am also a Dragon owner
I own a REL Acoustics S/812. That made me smile. 😄
Would be nice if they would let you pair your own subwoofers to it.
th-cam.com/video/_QVGHJLprxc/w-d-xo.html
Great job bro! And you’re 100% right about the subwoofer but I’ll stay with my 15in ! lol 😂 😎👍
How do the 12s compare to the Sonos subs?
Sonos sub & Bose 700 sub is hitting 25hz. Embarrassing tbh
@@davidbroadbent1470 but still small. I rather have a larger sub than a tiny sub that hits lower. Tiny subs make tiny sounds regardless.
20 Hz for a 12" sub is tough to reproduce without DSP. Both of my ported 12's (a Mirage and Harman Kardon) had a big drop-off in audible output below 25 Hz, despite massive cone excursion movement and corner placement.
Check out HSU 12" powered subs ;)
I’d say in practical terms 30hz is where it’s at … a robust response below 30 is a nice to have but by 20 it’s not really audible anymore - just perhaps physical and there is not much content that calls for that range. The 12’s clearly have a natural resonance at 30hz
What I am very curious to know is if you can order 1 or 2 of the new 12" subs with a brand new purchase of the dragon, or are you obligated to only be able to buy it with the original subs, and then add on to that... Because that would be redundant and kills the interest for many. I'd like to start with one 12" and maybe add a 2nd one down the line, but I have no interest at all in the original subs.
You can buy 2 12’s with a new dragon with no original subs … there is no way to start with one twelve with no originals
@neverenoughtech That's great to know, thank you. It's a coin toss between them vs Sony's Quad with a Sub. If Sony drops a new Sub, that's definitely more of a setup to go with for my environment. Thank you for your time, much appreciated.
Alright I need the listening review up asap so I can cancel my order if needed lmao.
I’m try-Harding on the follow up to get it out soon
@@neverenoughtech keep up the good work.
these better be powerful subs.. but for $1500 we are way out of sound bar range now.....
At $5800 and $8500 we are entering the Bang and Oulfsen soundbar bar category especially in price. The difference is Andrew Robinson loved the Bang and Oulfsen 😊
1200 now until October
Andrew didn't try the new subs yet. They got to make the system better, but I don't think this was a smart business move from Nakamiki.
@@MrBjorn6 bang only offers a soundbar for that price, no rears, no subs.
@@michael-4k4000 Andrew already returned his unit. Next time he'll have to pay a friend to order for him lol
Could you suggest if Klipsch home theatre set up best or monitor audio set up gold 6g lastest version or Sonos set up. Thank you
I have a 12 inch sub from xtz that cost me 800usd new. It plays to 20hz with 5db drop sealed and can go even lower with one of the ports unplugged.
With a lot of setup/tuning options that the Nakamichi can't even match. Super sad
Emberassing nakamichi can't deliver.
Nice review, and keep doing what you do. Subscribed.
Thanks!
Im not sure how charging an amp for 2 days would do anything good. Was he saying to keep the amp on and running for 24 hours? I don't think that would have any noticeable audio effect. I can see the logic behind running the subwoofer, as it is a material that will change over time. still dont think i would be able to tell an audio difference.
I too am a little lost on the amp logic
Spray some W40 on the woofer, that makes a real difference.
I’m sure you’ll address how two 12” subs compare to two original ones, and mix one front one back of each in the 4 sub test. And if you think 4 12” subs will be the way to go. Keep up the good work.
Love the dead pan humor.
Constantly understated and overdelivererer. Unlike nakamichi 😂
People keep calling me deadpan but I try extra hard to be expressive in these videos 🤷 - I’ll take the compliment 🙂
@@neverenoughtech just be yourself. You're unique.
Damn curious about the price tag for the full package now?
Posted on the website
@@neverenoughtech I missed the tab. 😅 $5599. for duel subs setup is a far cry from the $3200. price tag of the original setup (which was actually $4k). The question now: Is it worth it over an AVR setup?
@@SynjynBthe answer is no
The dragon with a 24in sub Is the better option. There's a company that makes a carbon fiber twenty four inch for super cheap
I make the mod for the Dragon sub. Let me know if you want a kit, I’d send it for free for you.
He’s never going to do it or at least say that you can do way better for much less than these overpriced Nak subs. I will say thank you for helping so many people on Avs save money and not give Nakamichi another penny!
Interested dragon owner here
So wait with the 4 subs you now have an 11.8.6 system? Or is it .12 due to the 12”?:)
stating the lowest frequency of a sub without the associated rolloff point by the manufacturer is a red flag on its own. Sure you can state the sub reaches 20hz but at -20db!
My sense is it’s still 11.4.6 as the 8 twin subs no longer seem to be individually selectable when paired alongside the 12’s… I’ll clarify in the full review
Why are you returning them? Do you think one is enough?
I don’t own the 12s - they were lended to me. Just saying I don’t want to return but that was the deal
@@neverenoughtech Ahh ok...your opinion is valued!!! I hope one 12 will work well with the two 8's.
Does your mic pick up 19hz though?
I’ll address further in my full review
I don’t even have this system but I’m excited to see the new subwoofers
As far as I can tell it’s a winner … but got a lot more testing to do
This system sounds amazing and I can’t imagine how much better it could sound with the new subs
Once I understood what it was ,I seriously struggled to understand the point of the Dragon even in the 8" persona - now with the 12" subs, it's even more of a mystery to me - at the price they are asking for this thing, you can get a pretty decent integrated atmos amp and speaker setup that will give a wider front sound stage - an area in which all sound bar systems are limited - there are literally dozens of options - AND, it will probably be less huge and ugly. The point of a sound bar and wireless speaker setup is, in my opinion, to blend into the background of a living space where you can't get a full on home theater setup past your significant other - and the Dragon utterly fails at that.
Uhm Why?
@@Beer_Dad1975 The point of a soundbar to me is to make your life easier. I wouldn't say it is about size. Is about getting sound out of the box with very minimal work to do. Which in this case the dragon actually has way more manual settings than most soundbar people would like.
I ordered 2 of the 12's. I was anticipating that they would be more impressive at 20 hertz. Nakamichi should have done 15's instead of 12's. Not thrilled to shell out an additional $2600 (w/ tax) for the subs the Dragon should have shipped with originally, but that's the price of early adoption. Hoping the full review reveals lots of good news with these subs that justify the upgrade and pricing.
Wait another year for 15
@@pulDag I thought about this, but I'm not sure there would be a business case for Nakamichi to do it. Once people spend the extra to pick up the 12's, whatever that market size is, the market for 15's would seemingly be smaller. So I decided to just get the 8's upgraded and not wait for something that might not happen. Just wish they had picked 15's instead of 12's.
What hz do the 8" subs accomplish?
Harder to tell as mechanical noise adds to the DB - if you add the 8s I noticed 20hz was louder but probably not in the way people want.
@@neverenoughtech I’m an owner with 2 12” on order. Looking forward to your review.
Rel Carbon Specials 😊
JLA cr-1 active crossover
👌🍻
🍻
You said it's "4 subs" ...😮...isn't it "six" subs?🤔
There are TWO "subs" in each of those 8"ers! Nakamichi wouldn't lie! 😅
Subs can be used informally to mean a component or unit. But yes 6 subwoofers and two passive radiators are supported. My sarcasm sensor is broken so I’m not sensing any sarcasm
My favorite reviewer, I started with the Nakaimichi shockwafe SSE ARC 9.2.4, loved review of Samsung 990 C, and the Sony Quad theatre. Now waiting for the review subwoofers 😮
For 8500 USD this system must deliver a condition like being in the scene 😁
Hah. Thanks for the nod to their obvious visual equivalent 🎉
How does two 12'' compare to my Sonos Sub Mini - probably not as good 😀
LET'S GO!!!!
Agreed
This is the best sound bar you can buy. Period. Is it over priced? Yeah sure. There is a reason why there is a love/hate relationship with this. If its a 4000 usd junk nobody would talk about it. Nobody would buy. People bought it because its exceptional and its much beyond what you hear from a regular sound bar system. Is it 4000 better ? Now that depends on the perspective. You cannot expect a sound bar to be 4000 times better after a certain point. It will only be marginally better for a certain extent. But does it make a difference? Hell yeah. You gotta hear it to believe it. And i have had it all
No it's not. It just gets loud and that it is but clueless people will believe that is what good sound is and it's false. The soundbar alone can't even play below 160hz. The 8" subs don't go below 40hz even though advertised at 20hz. The new subs now won't even go below 30hz yet once again advertised at 19hz. By this point you've spent $6000 on a system that will have localised bass and gaps missing in the mid range. Go compare what $6000 gets you in the home cinema world and you'll see how useless this device actually is.
@@sethwestscoot9810 you sound like some reviewer’s wife who’s butt hurt and coming here with a fake account to justify your husbands lack of ears. With that being out of the door let me ask you this, are you a current dragon owner ? ( no bulshyt of oh i had i returned or i heard at a friends house ). I own the dragon and i have a full blown sonos / sennheiser max and dedicated movie theater at my basement with a dedicated svs system. Cost twice the dragon. While dragon is not in the same level it competes head to head with svs. Volume up ? No i rarely goes above 15. Yes the included 8 inch subs are weak at low freq but the amount of material you get at 20 is low and when its above 40 its same like you sat in a dolby theater. Ppl hate on things they cannot afford. Same like how some goes and chant the mantra on any other brand. Nobody stopped you from setting up a home cinema system with your money from wires hanging all around you.
@@azuezx619 I own the Dragon and have added 4 SVS PB1000 subs. I agree whole heartedly with what sethweestcoot9810. Nakamichi is a shit company that didn't deliver what it promised. It leveraged the name for a quick money grab. Launched a fix and is trying to make the old customers pay to get what they they were getting in the 1st place. My system sounds good now, but the main bar NEEDS a strong sub or two to fill in the gaps laid by the main bar. Face it, the guys that were looking to buy the best got duped...I am "guys" lol.
Judging from this first look and your reactions, the subs must be bad?
That’s not the message I was trying to portray - there’s just not much going on physically or auditory at 19hz which is technically not audible to most humans - I wanted to set a sober expectation about 19hz - if the expectation was a bunch of physicality. 20Hz is I’d say infrequently called on in movies and music - the capability to play 30hz well I’d say is practically far more important as that’s a much more common frequency in movies and such. It seems the sub has a natural 30hz resonance
@@neverenoughtech It would make sense, especially if the design and tuning philosophy share similarities with REL subwoofers. REL subs are known for their focus on musicality and seamless integration, prioritizing clarity and detail over sheer output. If nakamichi 's 12-inch subwoofers are following a similar design approach, it could explain the tuning choices aimed at delivering a more refined bass experience, even if that means certain SPL trade-offs at the lowest frequencies.
@@neverenoughtechMaybe not 20 as such itself but there are plenty of scenes in movies in the 22-27 range which do make a big difference. Why advertise once again if you can't hit the numbers. What's next Dragon owners have to spend another $3000 to finally get the system to what was advertised. 🤣
Why are Audiophiles so cocky? I'm still trying to understand. 🤣
🎉🌋🎉🌋🎉🌋🎉🌋🎉🌋🎉🌋
I don't think any song or movie goes down to 19 hertz
I keep reading War of the Worlds and Blackhawk down as examples. - however The subs competency at 30hz will be of far greater practical importance for the vast majority of content moments
@@neverenoughtech The opening moments of Live Die Repeat (Edge of Tomorrow) is apparently a sub killer. Would love to see you test these subs against that (Carefully!)
Ending scene of Lucy plays pretty low
@@neverenoughtechYeah, but then when you have a bar that rolls off at 160-200hz do you really want the subs to have such a high crossover for their size.
Just get a 2 rsl mkii 10s or 2 svs pb 1000 they will murder this sub and u still have money left over 🤣🤣🤣
Yeah but if you already bought the dragon how to integrate them into the dragon system?
I hear there is a kit but that’s probably not universally appealing
@@neverenoughtechand two 80 pound subs is 🫣 Also paired with two large 8" ones if you decided to keep those 🤣
At least the mod box you can hide it behind the sub itself and still buy something like an SVS-1000 for half the price which actually hits its marketed numbers.
You have to use c weighting not a!
Simple man I prefer to recreate the human ear experience - fair though
You can only hear down to 20hz
I can go all the way down to 0.0001 hz
Seems to be the case - my mic is rated for 20Hz … my kid couldn’t hear it - he has the best hearing I have access to. And I can go down to 0.00001 hz (for the record)
Awesome.
Thanks!
🙏 noise cancelation guy
Nc guy is a legend
@@neverenoughtech YT don't have the salute emoji so I had to improvise,lol. I meant you killed him!
I think I got your meaning
Fine. I'll subscribe
🙂
Yes, a new Never Enough Tech video! Now we can finally put to bed all the petty arguing about Nakami…..
That was so two and a half weeks ago
I dont get this industry and its customers... Subs are the easiest speaker to make in the world. Bass in room is hard to get right though.
So why in the hell buy a system that dont allow you to "pair" any sub, or subs? Why is there no standard for wireless sub signals? Why dont customers dont seem to care?
Its so god damned stupid.
I might get it when there is magic DSPs involved. But even then, you are measuring the room. A DSP can do a test tone on ANY sub and figure out its limits AND your room characeristics. As long as you dont just some LG computer kit sub that really is a mid range, the sub it self should almost be a non factor.
This system seems dump as a donkey so why this artificial choice between two subs? They wanna be Apple or Sony? Well, they arent. They could just sell a wireless signal adapter, sell their own subs and also let customers choose any sub they want.
Its a stupid system that fits almost none in the market.
Review done. (Ps I have done almost no research so dont trust me. But also, think in it.) 😂
Haha, my Martin Logan 60 XTi's towers hit lower. They can hit down to 18hz and an F0 of 24.5hz.
I love how you always address the audiophile nerds preemptively. You put them right in their place 😂😂
I feel the feels of everyone who will ever watch
The whole Dragon series is a bust! It might sound good, but it'll never be great. There are systems far below its price level that sound far superior to it. And all the gaslighting about their claims that turn out not to be true AT ALL and then making every excuse for them is just.... Disappointing and quite frankly calls your, now to me, Opinion rather than expertise, into question. Just disappointing. Just call it as it is... It ain't worth anywhere near the money. You're paying for an old pedigree for a product that is half baked and has QC problems as well the materials being subpar. Which means it sucks!
And we haven't really had an opinion on how it sounds... Well except for A. R. but you're biased so we won't go there.
A bunch of generalities and vagaries - I don’t see this system as simply as you - what “excuses” are you talking about? I make these reviews as fair as I can and I don’t belong to a camp which seems to make you and those who completely disagree with you displeased.
@@neverenoughtech Yes but does it actually Sound Good? Right out of the box? Or do you have to spend weeks messing with it to get it to sound decent? Those are easy questions to answer. Yes they sound great or no the sound is not up to expectations.
I once had a pair of Pioneer speakers that I swore sounded good. I paid for them and was proud of my purchase. My friends on the other hand found the speakers wanting. And one friend who swore over his Klipsch speakers told me to come over and have a listen. I was blown, the Klipsch weren't perfect but they sounded way better for less money. Way better. I went home listened to my speakers one last time and shook my head and went on the hunt for new speakers again.
Could it be the pride in your purchase is stunting your ability to be partial and unbiased?
the worst kind of chifi
What’s the best kind?
Dude, you need to stop reviewing as you’re not doing people with no knowledge any favors. First $4000 and now another $2400? This is another example of Nakamichi’s inability to create what they market and people like you(the shills)are doing a real disservice. These 30hz subs are $5-$600 subs at best and can’t be used for anything else, but the smarter people who wish they could return the dragon got smart and bought 2 SvS pb1000 pros. I can’t wait for your next happy go happy review on how good and solid they are.
I’m glad you’re looking forward to my next review
You bet!
I'm so confused with your comment.
@@rafars2246 Maybe after reading it a few more times you’ll understand but I doubt it.
@@Keithking4337 I love my dragon and can’t wait to buy me to 12 inch subs so to answer your question Nakamichi does have a market the dragon sounds amazing salty internet guy
Overpriced garbage
I don't think this sub is worth the hype or the crazy price. The 8" subs are a joke, i hated the ported air sound when it played low frequency contents.
Sounds like you should keep rocking on without the 12s
@@neverenoughtech do you think it is worth it to pair the two 8" with one 12?