Tractor-Hacking Farmers Take on John Deere
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ก.ย. 2024
- These tractor-hacking farmers are fighting for the right to repair their own equipment.
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Tractor hacking is a fast-growing trend in the farming community - but it’s not outsiders breaking in. Throughout the American heartland, disgruntled farmers are using software sourced from Eastern Europe to break into their own tractors.
The farmers have resorted to tractor hacking for reasons that go far beyond agriculture. They’re part of a larger movement against big-name companies, like John Deere, that are withholding the right to repair.
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Should all devices include the right to repair?
Yes for sure, thats what u bought
Yes
Of course I fix all my devices myself
Yes, this shouldnt even need to be a question
Yes also Louis Rossman is another who is fighting for the right to repair but on the legal side. Also why do they need this? Why is it that co. Need to control the right to repair? Isn't anti competitive business practices?
It makes me sad to see things like this. Once tech was meant to empower people, but now it's meant to limit your potential and dry out your pockets
Tech has always been used to control people. Think of parking meters. Coin in the slot type machines. Electronic door access codes. Security cameras. Turnstiles. Speed cameras and redlight cameras. Activating software. Even where it gives the ILLUSION of empowerment there is always an underlying seizure of power. "The velvet prison" I have always described it.
Louise Rossman is also in the club of Right to repair, he testify whenever there is hearing on this topic. If you can't do whatever you want with something you have purchase then you it seems that you don't own it at all, Apple or JohnDeere they all look for profit.
I was coming down here to type my man Louis in the comments, and you got top comment.. allllrighttttt. :sunglasses:
His video last night was shared with many high level commercial farmers. John Deere is screwed.
Subscribed to my man Louis Rossman for the #righttorepair and his rants about big city politics. So good, all his daily rants :)
He's a man, his name is Louis.
Louise is the character from Bob's Burgers that wears bunny ears on her head.
Nobody is forced to buy equipment they cant work on, are they?
I’ve repaired my apple products though. Real simple job. Apple doesn’t like it but can’t stop it. John deer you can’t repair at all by yourself.
Farmers in the middle of harvest, machine plays up,he calls the dealer, dude turns up hooks up a laptop fixed in 5 min. Then he’s charged 5hrs each way travelling time and lost a days work.
Thats why I run 20 year old combines..We do all repairs...
...calls the dealer, dude shows up a week later because it's harvest season and he's got lots of tractors to fix, crop is ruined.
Before unhooking laptop, service guy sets date of next breakdown.
Or he hooks up a laptop and uses pirated software downloads ransomware and a hacker holds his $150,000, machine hostage.
And this is why we need Open Source Software and Open Source Hardware. Right to repair should be an inalienable right for all as a freedom of speech or freedom of religion.
100%
Because you want everything free.
@@maxpayne2574 they bought and own the product and are kept from reparing it, how does that lead to them wanting everything to be free?
It's one thing if there aren't any parts left on the free market, it's another if manufacturer restricts supply and locks diagnostics and firmware to prevent the owner from fixing stuff they own
Thank you to all you farmers. Not just for this, but for keeping my family and I fed.
It’s sad, because when the Farmall series existed, they designed specifically so that farmers with 1 wrench set could work on their equipment, now your paying 10s of thousands of dollars for repairs that could be done simple
9/16
sheer madness prevails..
Go back to sitting on an open tractor all day LOL Modern farmers drive their air-conditioned pick up to their air-conditioned tractor push a few buttons the play on the cell phone while the tractor drives itself.
Support our people vs. institutions
The corpocracy that has taken over American politicians on the left & right, must fall.
We need our democracy and freedom back, Apple and Bigtech are robbing us right in plain sight with all this.
Democracy is better than Corpocracy with DNC and GOP corrupting their cores with legal lobbyist bribes.
Gladly
@@dertythegrower what left, there is no left; the false dichotomy is unnecessary
Precisely why my father, when he decided that he needs a tractor, bought one made in 1970.
I agree with the farmers, they are completely milking them!
"It's legal to tinker with your stuff."
Thank-you, lady.
That why I own old junk...no hacking, no corporation telling me what to do...just fix it and deal with owning junk
Agreed ,3 wires run a Diesel engine,junk is best
@@cecilforbes3034 Untill goverment starts heavy taxing it. Which they have to stop the global warming.
Guess you will have to degrade to a steam engine run by a boiler, burning wood from your own land :P
Or just embrace the tech and take control. First thing i did with my car when i bought it was to hack it, disable some safety features like car disabling video in front while driving. Aswell as the puny 250km/h speed limit etc.
Tech is awesome, i get alerted to any police controls near my car when driving. So i can easy avoid them/slow down.
Not to mention tech allowing me to experience performance that was pretty much limited too professional drivers/super rich people when i was a kid in the 90s.
Goin 0-100 in just above 2 seconds is hella awesome.
Old stuff has its charms. Like how its build to last, compared to modern consumer mentality. But its usualy not very effective at its job compared to the newer.
Amen 🙏 I only have one newer tractor with a computer on it and that thing is such a headache to repair. My other junky’s are still going hard and no computer on them and they are so easy to repair for anything
Yes Sir..We have a whole herd of 40 year old tractors...
@@MrDanisve Creeping Communism everywhere....Sharpen your swords,...
Farmers: Let us fix stuff we own
John Deere: Introducing... Montly Subscriptions
Unfortunately, this happens already.
and despite what they're claiming here the same is true for cars.
That diagnostics software car mechanics use is used by them under a service level agreement with the manufacturer.
Which makes perfect sense as the manufacturer sends out regular updates with data for new models, bugfixes, etc. etc. which costs the manufacturer money.
Where JD goes wrong IMO is in not making that software available at all to independent shops and operators, only to certified dealers.
I have worked in the software industry for going on 25 years, and am constantly surprised and disgusted by the idea that many people seem to have that creating and maintaining software is a zero cost process simply because the distribution happens using some intangible medium like the internet (which btw also costs money to build, maintain, and operate).
The monthly subscription should be in the purchase price, paid for at the point of sale.
This country & the big tech just get rich off the hard working people & im tired of it & I will never ever give in to this Bullshit !!! Stay healthy & strong 🙏🏻❤️✌🏼🇺🇸😊
Thats how people like Billy Gates got dirty wealthy.
I never thought, it is even possible to stop someone from repairing things they own. Really EU ander USA is at another level of capitalism. Bro here in India, it's impossible for anyone to stop from repairing.
Apple has started in india too bro. Atleast till now companies like john deere havnt gripped the indian market due to Mahindra and others
It not so much the the right to repair as this say it's the software and leads to diagnose issues. John Deere are not helpful in making service literature readily available £100 per service manual per EACH machine. Potentially 2-6 weeks waiting time for the manuals. And I am in the uk.
@@danielclark8036 I paid €1000 for a case excavator workshop manual, a 6 inch stack of paper in a plastic bag !
No one will ever be able to block Indian Jugaad, the ultimate hack
It's very simple do the following:
1. Make it allowed by law
2. let the manufacturer charge more for allowing power to the consumer.
3. Watch manufacturers struggle to sell new and forced to reduce their price
4. Were back to the good old days within a matter of 2 years of forcing manufacturers to stop being dicks.
Nahhh they have plenty of overhead they could bring home less money and reinvest in the company but these c***'s want more and more... they need to learn not to be gready. Thats what needs to happen
There is a reason why good 40 year old tractors cost 25,000 dollars..
I work at a dealership, these modern machines are getting so technical and advanced that just having the software does not mean that you will be able to repair the machine. You have to have a very firm grasp on data links and advanced electrical theory. Just clearing codes doesn't fix anything...
They will have to learn the hard way.
But if it is mine, then I should be able to choose to clear the codes as I see fit. Why is it, that I can build an airplane in my shed and then I can go flying in it, but I am not allowed to fix my phone/tractor/car/whatever? And I am unable to fix them not because I lack the skills, but due to the fact that if I change the battery in my phone it will no longer work properly?
@@h2835 I agree you should be able to attempt to repair your own machine. I have seen too many times more damage being done from improper repairs, such as clearing codes. It's always a hard conversation to have when you explain to a operator that they caused further damage from improper repairs.
@@gunmountain It should still be their choice to make. My reasoning is simple: If I own it, then I am free to do with it as I see fit. That includes wrecking it. That includes damaging it by making improper repairs. That also includes diagnosing the problems it has.
We do not argue about being able to change brake pads, but it can do a whole lot more damage if that is done incorrectly. We do not argue about being able to change oil in a car, but it can do serious damage if done incorrectly.
I think it is time to treat adults like adults. We do not need to try to save them from the results of their actions. If you try to do that, then responsible adults will simply skip your products, and irresponsible ones will still try to make you the bad guy.
@@h2835 totally agree
The solution is really simple.Dont buy John Deere tractors,ever!
Not so simple, cause they are all doing this like in tech apple, lenovo, acer... Cannot buy these anymore and go back to middle ages.?.. Goodluck !
@@intrax2tv there are other brands who don't really do that.Im speaking about tractors
If its not red put it back in the shed...
Pretty much everything is like this now, Even my coffee machine had DRM. Its very hard to avoid.
How do people know the manufacturers don’t put a bug in the software at a certain point the tractor will shut down I’m lucky I use old tractors and only have a small area when you buy something it should be yours
There's no way of knowing without proving it. It's the same reason why proprietary printer ink is purposely wasted by some printers so you'd be forced to buy more ink.
Oh. We actually know John Deere has such backdoors in their software. John Deere tractors stolen from Ukraine were remotely deactivated by the manufacturer in Crimea (Russian territory). If JD has it, everyone has it...
what if you demand the sofwere before buying the tractor to closed the deal what wood happing
In Brasil the same fight for the right to repair is raging as well
I drive 50 and 60 yr old cars/trucks everyday which I repair myself. I will never be held hostage for anything, especially a crooked dealer. Learned everything I know in North Dakota. I support our farmers 100%.
"RIGHT TO REPAIR"!!!
This is an attempt to control alternative fuel sourcing. Its like Howard Hughes never selling a drilling oil rig, just lease them forever.
Like you said run it till it's dead then do a resurrection. Above all remember debt is the farmer's number one enemy. Debt is everyone's number one enemy.
3:17 John Deere? That's Caterpillar software
2021 the year of changing the system
Right now I can't even disassemble my chinese vacuum cleaner without getting it broken, and no any guides anywhere, because the model is only for my country's market.
And to address another point... this is not "tractor hacking". This is farmers and independent shops downloading pirated diagnostic software that is freely available on various forums and other sources on the internet. Hardly the definition of "hacking", unless anyone who downloads a pirated version of Photoshop is a "hacker".
agreed, electronics (tractors ,ecars, mobile, laptops, pc) are become more and more closed and fixing is increasingly diificult to the point of non existent
Yeah it's a total scam. Washing machines are designed to have the circuit board fail. The board is in a space without adequate ventilation and right next to the water valves. No circuit diagrams are available and a replacement circuit board costs half the price of a new machine (bill of materials puts the real retail cost at less than $100). I've repaired the board on mine twice now and modified the machine for better ventilation. Just because I hate being scammed like that really.
this creates a whole new industry of service repairmen for those farmers who aren't tech savvy
BIG issue and nice Video. Keep up sharing these important topics!
I'm with you, we purchase the equipment we should have the rights to the software to repair
Nebraska could always stop John Deere from doing business in it's state. That might help change their mind.
I support right to repair, let that be clear from the start. The only thing I don't understand is: what's keeping someone from starting a new tractor producing company without the locked software? If the problem is that big like the farmers are saying, why do they still buy those tractors? Please, someone explain it to me.
Availability and efficiency. Just like buying a car, you can only reasonably buy from somewhere nearby and modern machines using software are much more efficient than older tractors at getting the job done. If your only options nearby are machines with software that can't even diagnose the easy to fix problems, then there are really no options since every single problem will require going back to the dealer. A tractor isn't something that can cheaply and easily be shipped long distances.
We finally have that first bill to pass, at comment 400. I love this video.
The core problem is greed, feel so sorry for these farmers...
Hacking, tractor, farmers..... That's a rare words to be combine
Another thing that needs to be said is who at John Deer and other companies thought that it was a 'good idea' to make agricultural equipment dependent on computing technology, let alone in every part of the machine. Am pretty certain that most tractors could be built without the need for an onboard computer to control everything, especially given that much of what is required hasn't changed that much since a century ago. Keep It Simple comes to mind
People pay to own equipment and that means they should own EVERYTHING and the SoFtware to run the equipment and John Deere and Cat and the rest better wise up quick.
Now it's not "Learn to Code or Farm"
Now it's "Learn to Code to Farm"
Everyone's a gangsta until the Farmer fires up Shell Terminal on his laptop on the hood of his tractor
And yet farmers buy how many billions of new equipment each year. Good old 4955 still capable of getting the job done.
4955 was the beginning of using computers
We have 2- Steiger Panthers and 3-Vesatiles, 2-4430's, 4020, 4440, 4630 and newest is 7820 and 6430...Our 7820 is 15 years old...One Steiger is 45 years old..
My opinion as someone who has experience in the technological sector is that some things like preventing you from touching the source code or other sensitive parts of the software, they are not trying to get more money from you(only) it is being bone in order to keep you safe from yourself because of the complexity of these applications. Thing about what would have happened if you had control over the entire software and you could tweak it, one wrong parameter in the source code, at the gps modules, the auto steering system and this could end up in a lethal situation, they of course don’t do the best they can but there is a reason for some of the things they do a this is to keep you safe and alive so you can continue be their client. One more thing, referring to my last example, thing now that you survive and of course this is your fault no doubts, you would blame it to the company and as a result you wouldn’t buy anything from them again.
Makes sense
My option as someone in the programming sector: This is a load of bull. Nobody ever asked for source code or access to sensitive parts of the software. Everybody ever asked for are the same diagnostic tools, that the dealers have access to. The diagnostic tools, that the manufacturer reportedly made accessable to the users as part of an agreement with the US government so that the Right to Repair bills do not go into effect. Problem is: Those were not, are not, and will not be available for the public until there is a law stating it as a requirement, and a class action lawsuit resulting in the total ban of sales from a manufacturer until said software is publicly available.
Mind you: Nobody ever asked for it to be free. A yearly subscription of about 3-400 USD per user should be acceptable, it the software comes with the required connecting hardware.
What if something goes wrong , like safety issue . Who is accountable ? Manufacturer or consumer ?
Now that explains why John Deere stock has gone up over $200 a share since March.....
In conclusion, private property must be abolished
They charge you more for it but you never own it
Same with seeds, now companies are patenting them as their property which makes it illegal to keep some for the next season. Some cars you can't buy, you can only rent them and return them when you want to change. More and more companies are turning to subscription/rent to use their products so the users can pay all during their lifetime. Impossibility to repair or own so they can squeeze every $ out of your pockets, we need to fight this.
Monsantoooooo
If I was in the upper management or board of a John Deere I would meet with farmers and ask what they want, why and meet in the middle. A concern JD would have is “who is liable/responsible when a hacked piece of JD equipment fails and causes injury?”
The thing i can't is why not program and set up the tractor to start back up after the issues been fix. I work in auto repair PCM sees the up steam o2 sensor has gotten too slow. set the code and turns the light on. you take in to get fix the person working on it puts a new sensor in the PCM with the light still on retests the sensor. after the sensor passes the OBD2 test 3 times the PCM on it's own turns off the light. GM cars and trucks puts in history after 40 passes it's eases the code.
Farming...and farm equipment sure ain't what it used to be.....No fun anymore...margins way to tight
Its simple....Farm what ya own, farm it right, dont borrow, pay off debt and have side hustles...
The common sense of this man is right on point. NO WAY a dealer should be able to extort them for software and technology advice. When you buy something it should be yours Lock stock and barrel. Manufacturers should be required to divulge ALL technology software to the purchaser. IF NOT then they should not be able to incorporate electronics and technology and software BEYOND THE REACH OF BUYERS. CUSTOMERS ARE NOT DEMANDING ALL THIS ELECTRONIC STUFF all they want is equipment they can rely on and fix in the field or their shop.
Let's go #FARMERS#WORLDWIDE WE HAVE TO FIGHT AS ONE
Link to the Nebraska bill?
John Deere is very disrespectful towards our own dedicated hard working farmers.
Same with Bobcat, your at the mercy of dealerships that do not have 24 hrs service, do not work weekends or after hrs. and if you complain they will be another day late and ridiculous rates just to show up.
Stop buying John Deere. Buy Case or CAT/Challenger.
That's why my uncle's handed down running FARMALL is the best equipment he's ever gotten PERIOD! New Deere equipment is.....oh well still got the FARMALL!
Apple: Make my day...
Planned Obsolescence is such a beautiful thing
How can a video get 3k views from a channel with 400k subscribers?
Saw a video where medical equipment are going through the same problems. And the same solutions 🥰
Why do they still buy John Deere in the first place? Are they the only manufacturers of farm equipment?
If I pay 1.2mill for combine. I'm damn sure wanting all the products to fix it included in that price.
well done. keep up the fight
Anyone that downvotes is a corporate employee.
People are buying older used cars now just to avoid all of these new computer chips in newer cars
i 100% agree BUT... as far as the tractors go, manufactures will say farmers will try and bypass *EXPENSIVE* emissions systems and make them (epa) non-compliant, and that goes against *FEDERAL* *LAWS* . .... then how will al gore make more money ?!?!?!
i farm with older equipment. i dont need expensive gadgets to get the job done!
#RighttoRepair
how is this even a question lol
People make delete kits for cars and trucks, delete kits for a tractors might be a profitable business.
If you own it AFTER buying it should be within your power or domain to repair it. NO matter what item you bought. Monopolies are for big businesses and should be outlawed.
companies should make equipment that harvest as fast as a new tractor with a older tractor
How can a simple youtube viewer could support the cause of the right to repair?
The best solution is simply avoid buy JD products. There are other tractor manufacturers. When JD sales nose dive they change their tune, or go out of business.
There needs to be an Open Source Tractor!
There is one already, Massey Ferguson MF35 and MF135. Parts and service manuals are everywhere.
5:21 "What are they gonna do? Kill me twice?" reminds me A LOT of the man who has been stabbed after asking "What are you gonna do? stab me?".
0:55 that music is like drugs.
Stop buying from john deere or any other manufacturer with that level of proprietary repair software.
Absolutely! I agree.
LOL i've hacked almost every electronic device i own.
They made the choice when buying into the technology. Want analog, buy analog. In the end it’s all about chasing the last penny of profit and guess who the winner will be?
If a company sold flying broom sticks they would probably do the same thing that JD has been doing. I wish that I could replace the weak battery in my iPhone 7. Unplug the charger and it’s quickly losing charge.
It's not just John Deere. Even though 3rd party software is available for cars and trucks, it's not always accurate. In most cases the software company has to figure out the system before writing the software and they're not always right. I bought software for my diesel pu, but it sometimes gets the problem wrong. I change a perfectly good part, still have problems until I start changing related electronics. The whole issue or repairing owned equipment needs to be overhauled.
Some tech types need to write some new software to bypass dealers software.
Is anyone looking at the bigger picture, if it receives data, sends data, saves data and has a link to a satellite do yo really think That info isn't being distributed or even sold.?
Yes.
CAT did the same thing, proprietary software they wont let customers have access too.. Makes it impossible to clear codes or fix a machine without it.
Dustin from Smarter Every Day met a farmer who repairs his own plow if it breaks down
He's a hacker!!!
@@MrDrift3887 he doesn’t repair the software; he uses a wrench and stuff
This isn't specific to tractors tho. Everything today is made or marketed to be disposed of in a year or two. Looking at you phone manufacturers!!
100%! We actually did a video on that too, including with an engineer who's built a phone made to be user-repairable and upgradable. th-cam.com/video/mjFDd1hFpuE/w-d-xo.html
@@freethink , thanks for sharing.
@@freethink , lol I did watch it when it was published.
A farmer a resourceful problem solver that feeds city’s gets it done rite to repair is so important on everything ounce you buy it you own it period
Yes that is so true
Great video.
Look, I have no issue with legislation that tries to enforce something that should already be in effect, but I take issue with "that can only come with legislation". What about an open source competitor? Is the agricultural community not large enough to support such a thing?
Open source, for a manufacturing diagnostics application requires a reference architecture which I am sure JD says is proprietary and/or contains trade secrets. Again, farmers mostly want to be able to either purchase the diagnostic application (which should come as a perpetual license with the tractor) or take it to a mechanic that can purchase or license the diagnostic software.
@@tlookingfora5336 I'm talking about a competitor to JD.
Well sir, open source, in most cases, is a community based software effort (think grass roots), companies may join the effort or may not. And, yes I have some exposure in the arena. Right to repair would typically be more concerned with the diagnostic side of things rather than the entire code base for the target machine (e.g., tractor, combine, etc.). At this point the code for the diagnostic software is under copyright, possibly patent, and licensure contracts (I am assuming the standard purchase contract for the machine in question has a clause addressing the associated software). The license prohibits decompiling, reverse engineering, etc. to protect the intellectual property of the software owner, the rights of licensing, and any/all trade secrets that may be derived from the code. So, an open source project to provide diagnostics, activation of parts, and/or configuration of parts or processes would be a massive undertaking without at the very least a published reference architecture to guide the efforts. I believe that when you purchase the machine, the buyer should be provided with a perpetual license for the diagnostic software and any enhancements, patches, etc. made to that software and that the software should be readily downloadable and must be able to be installed on commodity hardware (laptop, tablet) and there should be no additional cost to the owner. Just my view, and yes this would take about twenty or thirty sentences to ensure in legaleze.
A Chinese equipment builder is going to capitalize on this mess and sell models into the market that are easier to fix and maintain, and "good enough" to be worth the price.
You are spot on the money. All it will take is a "Distruptive Manufacturer" to come along with a few similar products with open source software and the current major players are going to be in deep trouble. Think of where Tesla was just a few years ago and now it's the most valuable car maker in the world.
What comes around goes around!!!
Something simple like a censor or just a simple connection would be multi hundred's by the time you get a service call if he don't have with him then you have to pay to go it because it ant like you can drive it to a local shop some are 50 to 75 miles away
Uh oh. This goes against profits!! Right to repair should be a national law.
Do you earn what you purchase? Thats crazy ...