I recently started home roasting using a Fresh Roast. When I did my first batch of decaf I did not expect a challenge calling dry end, yet mid-roast I suddenly realized I could not rely on the color. Your prior video on using sight and smell helped me through it. This video is timely and helpful. Thanks for the great videos and all the information!
Hi Rodney, thank you for your comment and for watching my videos! I'm glad you are finding them helpful. I forgot to mention that decaf coffee also has a quieter first crack, adding to the challenges of marking your roasting events. Smell is king for decaf's. As you mentioned, messing up a roast will happen but we can learn and use that info on our next roast! Glad you are having success roasting.
I gave it another try, Mike. I bought some Sweet Maria's Moka Java SWP decaf and have roasted one batch so far in my Hottop -2K+. I brewed some in my Aero Press and it was decent. Don't ask me about flavor notes, though! I have more work to do on that profile since my dry end was at 4:12 minutes (33.7%), the browning phase was 5:21 minutes (43%) and development was 2:54 minutes (23.3%). Since I didn't have experience with this bean, I ended the roast when the beans were 375°. I'll deliver the rest of this batch to my brother and try another roast soon, making changes to improve the outcome.
I am using a 2016 model Gene Cafe CBR101 for decaf roasts. The drum has very little thermal mass, and requires a higher charge temperature than a classical metal drum would use. However, your broad points are spot on, lower temperatures (applied heat energy) are used than what are applied to non-decaf roasts. My spouse is the consumer of the decaf in the house, and she tends to favor Full-City+ roasts (as this is what the majority of mass marketed Decaf coffee has programmed her tastebuds to enjoy). But she does enjoy chocolate/nutty/buttery flavors which can be obtained with darker roasts. I totally agree that "full yellow" is essentially impossible to spot, and smell becomes the only metric to determine when the drying phase is complete. The sound of first crack is also more gentle than most non-decaf beans (with the exception of some peaberries). This is periodically more difficult with the various strains of Covid rolling through (and the associated lingering loss of the ability to smell). But, the moisture loss percentages I am getting at full-city+ is sitting around 13.75 percent, so it appears to be on target. Thank you for shooting this informative video, as it is a continuing effort for me to gain more knowledge in this craft. The decafs I am roasting right now are from Coffeebeancorral. They are: Brazil Mogiana (SWP) Colombia Excelso EP (EAP) Costa Rica La Magnolia (SWP) of these, my wife most enjoys the Brazil for it's strong chocolate and nutty character. But, there are things she enjoys on the other two as well.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Genie Cafe and roasting decaf. Sounds like your wife is happy so thats cool. I appreciate your comments about moisture loss. That is a really helpful way to gauge roast level consistency in conjunction with temps. Thanks for your encouraging comments and for watching my video!
@@Yirgamalabar I know the Genie Cafe is slow to roast and I'm not sure of your roast level preference. I don't have a specific roast profile for decaf. It depends on the coffee, roaster etc.. but i think my coffee roasting essentials playlist including the 3 tips for new home coffee roaster video would be helpful for you as you consider how to maximize flavor for your roasts. Sorry I don't have a recipe to share for the Genie Cafe.
I have been roasting with poppers for years, but just recently started using a Behmor. For decaf I have roasting on the 1/2 lb setting, but loading 1/2 lb PLUS 2 more ounces, since decaf usually roasts abut 20 to 25 % faster. The extra coffee slows down the roast to more closely match the Behmor’s 1/2 lb profiles and times. Obviously you still have to pay close attention to the roast, especially near the end.
OK, so I did roast up my last half pound of Columbia EA on my Behmor roaster, and thought I would share what I tried, and the effects it had on my phase times. I pre-heated to a temp to 150 F (previously used 200 F), then I loaded the drum in and began the roast as a manual 1/2-pound roast. I ran the first minute of Drying at 75% heating (P4) then went to 100%. After 4 minutes elapsed time in the Drying Phase, I lowered heat to 75% and set a fast drum speed. I left the heating at 75% until first cracks, where I dropped heating to 50% (P3). Since I was roasting decaf coffee, determination of Dry End/Browning begin was difficult visually. The only clue I had was when the smell was noticeably more grassy, or like baking, which was a little into Browning. My goals in changing things on this roast were to increase my phase times from my previous decaf roast, and to decrease the DTR. And that's exactly what happened. My (estimated) Drying Phase time was 6:30 (previously 5:00); my (estimated) Browning Phase time was 5:30 (previously 4:00); and my Final Development phase was 1:30 (same as previously); which gave me an overall roast time of 13:30 (previously 10:30, i.e. 3 minutes longer) and a DTR of 11%. But I really lucked out. The maximum time for a 1/2-pound roast on the Behmor is (oh no!) 13:30! So, I pulled the beans for cooling just a few seconds before the roaster shut itself off! Kinda scary, that has not ever happened before. But the roast ended correctly. Will have to see how it tastes after sitting for a few days.
Thanks for sharing the details of that roast Lou. That's exciting and scarry at the same time. could you have added additional time on the timer? Let me know how it tastes!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab No, I had maxed out the time. I was fortunate that the roaster turned off (literally shut off) exactly at the point I was pulling the beans. Whew! The decaf really tastes good and I am quite happy with the roast. Can I tell it in a taste test against regular coffee, probably so. But is it a big difference in taste, not nearly. As I write this (at 9:30 PM local time), I am enjoying a cup of my decaf, just after finishing a small bowl cherry cordial ice cream. That was a nice pairing!
@@AM2PMReviews Thanks for your question. Raw coffee is usually an olive color or something like that. As heat is applied to the beans they begin to loose moisture and begin to change color. They begin to yellow. When the beans are fully yellow that is the end of the drying phase and the browning phase now begins.
@@AM2PMReviews Mike pretty much says it all in his reply. There are many times I really have a difficult time telling exactly where the first phase ends and the middle phase starts. I try to watch the beans and smell the roast. The beans seem to start tumbling slower when they are close to the end of drying. I don't know why that is; maybe it's because steam is being released or something. They even seem sometimes to look a tiny bit bigger just at dry end. They probably aren't really any larger though. Related to your question, I would really recommend having a good light that more accurately shows bean color. I turn off the internal light in my Behmor roaster, and instead use an external light. The internal light is not very bright and has a yellowish color which makes seeing the beans and determining their color change more difficult. The external light is a very bright LED bulb with a color temperature of 5000K, which makes seeing the beans and determining their color much easier.
Interesting video, thanks Mike. That makes me want to try a decaf again. I roasted a decaf several years back with my Gene Café for my brother who cannot drink caffeine. It was my first experience with that and he was not enthusiastic about the results so I didn't do a follow up. I'm paying closer attention to my roasts now, so maybe I'm ready to try again! My next order will include a decaf but this time it will be with the Hottop.
Let me know how that goes Adrian. You might want to experiment with the percentages of your phases. Some decafs like to go a couple degrees longer for the drop. You might want to experiment with the middle phase and try and draw our more of the carmelization. If you have been trying to hit the 30% mark for browning, try 35-40%.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I am a roasting rookie but roast exclusively decaf via a Popper. In my limited experience, I have found that starting slower on the heat and running the development phase longer seems to produce better results. Also, I have to phase via smell: different decaf origins are different in color (beyond caffeinated vs. decaf)
@@brandongallite7579 Thanks for sharing! Yea, I agree. Any type of special process coffee including decaf gets a slightly lower charge temperature (in my drum roaster) and I am a bit more gentle pushing the heat in the first 2 minutes of the roast.
If you’re in Australia try CoffeeSnobs Decaf Wow and this is a blend and it’s amazing sooo fruity. The only thing is it’s very small beans but they are amazing roasted if you nail it. I prefer a lighter roast.
@@VirtualCoffeeLabjust for shots and giggles I tried it as a pour over in my Hario Switch and during the bloom it was writhing like it was alive mind you it was only 2 hours after roasting it …. I couldn’t wait. 😇
Very completely explained! You always find a new theme! I never roasted decoffeinated beans. I always sleep well after having drunk a nomal treated coffee. And there are only few guests, who prefer decaffeinated coffee. But I am glad to know more about now! Thanks for the tips! Would a colourmeter be useful?-- Always like your speech very much!
Hi Erhard, I don't own a color meter. As far as roast consistency, I don't think a color meter is necessary. I think the color meter would help determine the roast level. So, if you are roasting production with multiple batches, you can zero in on a very specif number on the meter within the decimal. Do you have a color meter?
I roast by ear, and decaf is hard to even catch a first crack, so I did what SM recommended, put in a modicum of regular green beans so that you can hear the first crack. It isn't perfect science, but the results justify the means to me, and I now get a good cup of decaf without under or over roasting my decaf.
Hi @birage that is a great tip for decaf roasters. It will help them detect first crack. I do see a problem with the timing though. The regular coffee will most likely crack at a different time than the decaf coffee because it is different in size, moisture, origin and so on. That means the time you mark first crack to determine the end of the browning phase and beginning of development phase will most likely be off. But, if you are not able to hear first crack anyway, I can see the the benefit of including that small amount of regular beans. Most important, you are happy with your cup. Thanks again for sharing your tip and for watching my video!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Yes. I agree with you, knowing that the decaf will not react like the regular green bean. Somehow, it seems to work out for me, so I can only assume the roasting profiles are not 'too' far off. Short of your exacting methods, I end up with a better cup than when I miss the crack altogether, so it is my preferred method right now, until perhaps I find a better way for me. Thanks for the reply.
Nice. I’m glad. What are you using to roast coffee? As far as decaf goes, I’ve been roasting an water processed Colombian decaf that is really good at a medium roast. Mmmm, very enjoyable.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I've been using a FreshRoast. I really like the results, although I haven't been using the extension tube and have plans to get one very soon. I've been using dry processed Ethiopian coffee the past few months. It's more of a challenge to get an even roast so the extension tube should help. For a decaf, a water processed Colombian seems like a good option for a sweet even roast.
@@danielshinkle1047 if I take the roast too far I get a slightly burned marshmallow note that easily moves towards ashy. So, consider ending the roast a little early and that might help. I have heard it said that when roasting decaf coffee, consider it more like how you would roast a dry process coffee. It makes sense to me because I see similar behavior to heat between the two.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Given my recent experience with dry process, that is very helpful. Roasting dry process has forced me to rely more on my nose, since the color isn't as consistent. I tend to rely on sight and sound, and am discovering that smell is key.
When I bought my first kilo of decaf I was astounded at the difference in colour, I of course ruined my first roast, but have been roasting decaf for 6 months on my Genecafe and now can roast a bit more confidently. Have you done a video on roasting with a Genecafe?
Hi @Anarchsis, thanks for your comment and for watching my videos. No, I have not done a video on the Genecafe. Have you been looking at your different phase times that I have been talking about in my videos? I'm curious to see how the roaster performs. I've been doing some reading that roast time are 15-22 minutes long? I did see a video with a 12 minute roast. What are your thoughts on my "3 tips for new home coffee roasters" using the Geniecafe? Hope you're doing well down under...
I just got the Gene Cafe CBR-101.. But can't see the yellow on these decaf beans or hear the first crack - any advice ?.. Think I got lucky today with the roast.. But it's pure luck i think :) Roasted 200g beans.. Preheated with 180 *C - and then did 230 *C.. think yellow was around 5:00 and first crack around 8:30. Here i turned the temp down to 215 *C and then dropped the beans at 11:20.. Which gives a ratio at 44,12% - 30,88% - 25,00%.. Haven't tasted anything yet - but looked good :)
Hey Mike, have your ever roasted a decaf to full City +? I have some folks that like a bit darker coffee and I have discovered that it is difficult to maintain the 50,30,20 stages when going to a bit darker. sometimes if I start a a lower charge temp then sometimes the roast can stall and then it never goes through FC or at least not that I can tell. and some Decaf's seem to be much more quiet when hitting FC. any thoughts?
Hi Steven. The 50/30/20 rule was meant as a starting point and primarily for a medium roast. I have gone city plus on a decaf and the middle phase was more like 40% for a 11-12 minute roast on the drum roaster. Generally speaking you will want to maintain a slightly higher ror when entering first crack to keep enough momentum going.
We’re about to jump into roasting coffee but we enjoy our current supplier’s decaf air roasted coffee and espresso ☕️ it’s definitely not what decaf once was👍🏻👍🏻☕️
Yea, water process, sugar cane process are more popular now and really make a big difference in flavor. I am roasting an ethiopian decaf i got from royal coffee that is fruity and really delicious.
Mike, another great video!! When I first started roasting, one of my goals was to get decaf coffee with taste and flavor indistinguishable from regular coffee. I'm still on that quest, but I'm getting a lot closer! In the past, the taste of decaf always disappointed me. Oddly enough, caffeine does NOT have a desirable flavor and has been described as bitter-tasting. So something else must have happened back then to corrupt the good flavor of regular coffee when the caffeine was removed. And I'm quite sure it was the process of removing the caffeine that did it. One coffee I have had success with is a Columbia EA Decaf I got from a professional roaster I know in Grand Rapids. The decaffeination process for that coffee uses a solvent called ethyl acetate (EA). Although EA sounds like it would be a dangerous thing to use, it is described as "[presenting] much less health and environmental hazard than chlorinated and aromatic organic solvents used formerly." Anyway, I roasted some and it tasted quite good. Honestly, not as good as some of the better regular Columbians I have had, but not a bad taste at all!! But the best thing of all happened when we had some friends over who can only drink decaf. As my friend was chatting with his wife and sipping a cup of my roast, I overheard him say to her, "now THIS is good decaf." And his wife, who usually puts in some kind of sweetened creamer, decided to try it without ANY, and said, "I like this better just as it is ... it has kind of a nice fruity flavor." Oh boy, that was it. That was all I needed to hear! But I think the next time I roast it, I will use your advice of being more gentle in the Drying Phase. On my Behmor, that will likely mean a lower preheat temperature (maybe 150 F instead of 200 F) and maybe even starting drying with 75% heat (P4), or maybe manually modulating between 75% and 100% during the first part of drying. My phases came out 48%, 38%, and 14%, but I might like to see browning a tad longer and final a tad shorter. I am thinking I can still get an even better tasing roast than last time. This is fun, and I'm gaining more and more friends as I give away my research and development coffee! :-)
Most of the Decaf we are roasting here is Colombian EA processed. I think they use sugar cane as the base to get the ethyl acetate. Have you experienced scorching or tipping with the Behmor? You may find it hard to keep your percentages if you lower your preheat temp? That is a great story about your friends enjoying your decaf. I'm sure it was a proud and pleasing moment to realize your roasting skills are such that people really enjoy your roasts! Thanks for your kind and encouraging words and for sharing your decaf roasting experience Lou.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Scorching or tipping with the Behmor? I think I may have experienced it just one time, but it was not with a decaf coffee. I was roasting a Nicaragua coffee and I preheated to a chamber (B) temp of 220 F instead of my usual 200 F. With some of the momentum of the heating elements, my roast chamber temp at 1:00 into the roast was 235 F. I did not record my starting temperature, but it must have been even higher than that! I'm thinking that may have caused what looked a little bit like some scorching, and some tipping. But in my notes from that roast, I indicate that it tasted quite good.
Hello Nick, There are different types of decaffeinating processes. As you look for a decaf green coffee, watch carefully for the type of process. Most specialty decaf uses water processing. There are two main facilities who decaffeinate including Descamex Mountain Water Process and Swiss Water. There is aslo EA decaf which is Ethyl acetate. Sugar cane is one of the fruits that can be used for this process and this might be why they make the claim "natural process". I have roasted both Colombian and Ethiopian decaf coffee and it was very good. The most recent decaf is a colombian de cana huila natural decaf which I have not roasted yet from cafe imports.
If decaf bean are less dense, and you are dosing the roast by weight, they will have more volume, at least at the beginning. If you are roasting the same mass, it seems to me they would take the same heat/energy, regardless of the volume.
How dark are you taking your coffee @Dark Black Yonder ? What is your total roast time? Are you tracking your times and temperatures? Several things to consider when roasting on your Behmor would be to pre-warm the roaster. See my most recent behmor video. Try using the high drum speed for your roast. Lastly, depending on your roast level preference, you may need to back off on the 100% power during the first couple of minutes of your roast. Let me know about your times and temps and I might be able to offer a couple of other suggestions.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I’ve tried a variety of roast levels with different beans. I’ve logged everything. I was using FC as my guide but after a bunch of failed roast I believe that by the time I get to FC the damage had been done. The coffee beans were dark but not like a dark roast more like a charred color. The last two attempts have provided the best outcomes and I think I may be a couple of roast away from having it dialed in. Which brew method do you prefer to taste test your roast?
@@maddogsstar I prefer the clever dripper (immersion) which doesn't rely heavily on a technique. I pour my water first and then add grounds, stirr them in, steep for 3:15 and then release.
The Behmor 2000AB+ is a great roaster in many respects, but the built in temperature probes will never give you an accurate bean temperature so that you can compare what Mike or anyone else does on other roasters. I did take into great consideration Mike's advice to be easy on the beans during the drying phase, then cranked up the temperature until I got close to 1st crack. At this point I back off the heat so that it doesn't burn the roast at the end. Using both A and B temperatures of the Behmor, I preheat up to about 220°F. Then I start with P2 to get a 13 minute roast which works out well for 200 g of beans, but immediately go to P4 during the drying phase. Once the grassy odor has gone (about 3-4 minutes in, sensed by occasionally opening the door a crack), ramp up to P5 and press the D to increase the drum speed. Once the A temperature reaches 325°F, back off the heater to P4. When the A temperature reaches 345°F back the heat off to P3 or P2. The goal is to keep the beans at the A temperature in the mid-350°F for about 2 minutes or so. On the Behmor, if you don't get the A temperature into the 350s, it tastes woody. If you let the temperature go above 360°F, it takes on a burnt taste. Mike has said time is an important factor. Keeping the roast time in the mid 350's for 2 to 2-1/2 minutes has been producing a nice coffee for me. I will be playing with time more now.
I'm glad you are seeing some success with the Behmor Larry. You are right, you can't expect any sort of temperature comparison between roasters BUT they should be used to understand the progression of our roast. I think that is probably the most important point in what I try to convey to people. For those people roasting on a Behmor, there is an important purpose for the dry phase which is to apply heat safety without causing defects, getting it to the point where it turns yellow. On a Behmor, we want to try and do this as quickly as possible. 5-6 minutes for the dry phase is a great goal. I try and keep my heat as high as i can go without the Behmor safety feature kicking in. On my roaster that is 325 on the B temp. Then while toggling back and forth between P5 and P5 (we are talking manual mode now), riding that high edge of temps. From dry end until the end of the roast, I am trying to slowly, slowly let me temps drop so I can get 30-35 percent of my total roast time happen in the browning/middle phase. Too fast and you fly into first and then second crack. Too slow and you drag your roast for boring flat coffee with a paper taste. I would recommend to anyone to checkout my Behmor Playlist to watch some of my roasts. I realize there are other ways to roast with the Behmor and if you are getting great results, that is wonderful. My way isn't the only way but is seems consistent for me AND if follows basic roasting concepts I promote here on this channel. If anyone seeing this wants to learn more about my approach to roasting coffee, checkout my "Coffee Roasting Essentials" playlist. Larry, thanks for sharing how you roast on the Behmor and the results you are getting. I know there are many people who read these comments and the dialog is really a valuable resource!
I kind of wish there were an actual forum for those with the Behmor. Mike, I remember you telling me that you don't roast as dark as I do. I would say that while the beans were darker in colour, they were not well developed. I had to use about 28g to make 6 cups of coffee instead of my usual 23g. I don't know how you managed to roast decaf with a B temperature of 325 without slamming through development all the way to second crack right away. When I'm using manual roasting at P5, my B temperature is only at about 280°F when I hear 1st crack. Mind you, I kept the heat low during the drying phase (P3) for the first 6 minutes. For my latest roast I kept the drying phase at P3 for the first 6 minutes, at which time the grassy odors go down. Then I increase the drum speed and ramp the temperature up to P5 until my A temperature gets to the mid 320s, at which time I back off to P4. Once I'm in the mid 340s, I back it down to P3, then cycle between P2 and P3 once I reach the mid to high 350s. If I let the temperature go above 360°F, the coffee will take on a smokey bitter taste, so that's why I keep the temperature below 360. I kept the beans roasting in the high 350s for about 2.5 minutes. What surprised me was that I hit 2nd crack without going above 360°F. However, the coffee is not smokey. My B temperature peaked at 273°F in all this. I used a 1lb cycle for a 1/2 lb of decaf columbian. This allowed me to get a 15 minute roast. Based on smells (loss of the grassiness), dry time was 6.5 minutes on P3. Next 5 minutes at P5/P4 to get to 1st crack (A temp about 335°F), then 2.5 minutes switching between P3 and P2 to maintain an A temperature in the high 350's. Just a reminder to others, the A and B temperatures do not directly compare to temperatures in other roasters.
@Larry B i think we are using different approaches to our roast. watch this video th-cam.com/video/F2SjWBtC_bo/w-d-xo.html and see how I manage my power/heat settings. I'm using P5 for the first part of the roast. Using P3, like you are is causing your roast to go long and then get hot and slingshot through development. Please watch the video, even though it is for an espresso roast this will get you close to where you want to be.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks, I'll try that for one of my future decaf roasts. I just remember you telling us to be gentle on the dry phase for decaf. Of course, the high setting of the Behmor is a gentler than what your gas roaster is capable of doing.
Exactly Larry. If there are roasting defects then you can reduce your power a little. I would start with your drum on the highest speed just to keep the coffee moving. That might help with the scorching.
So your saying you use same profile as regular coffee. If you do this it would burn. Later on you talk about lowering temperature. Seems your confused to me
Thanks for your message. I could see why this might be confusing and I could have done a better job of addressing this. Let me clarify, please. My first point should not have said "regular coffee". It should have said a "dry process coffee". I should not have included the statement including washed coffees. Sorry about that. Decaf coffee behaves much like a natural/dry process coffee while roasting. I think my second point helps clear up my first point a bit more as I talk about heat management and the sensitivity of decaf and dry-process coffees to heat. I think that is why you said: "you would burn it". I think my examples are helpful. I do stand by my examples of how to change the charge temp, soak, and amount of energy. Thank you for pointing this out. I think another video on this topic might be helpful. Did my reply help clear things up? Again, thank you for pointing this out. Mike
Ha ha, thanks Shane. That coffee has been through a lot with the decaf process. the color is always blotchy with some dark shades. Thanks for watching the video!
I recently started home roasting using a Fresh Roast. When I did my first batch of decaf I did not expect a challenge calling dry end, yet mid-roast I suddenly realized I could not rely on the color. Your prior video on using sight and smell helped me through it. This video is timely and helpful. Thanks for the great videos and all the information!
Hi Rodney, thank you for your comment and for watching my videos! I'm glad you are finding them helpful. I forgot to mention that decaf coffee also has a quieter first crack, adding to the challenges of marking your roasting events. Smell is king for decaf's. As you mentioned, messing up a roast will happen but we can learn and use that info on our next roast! Glad you are having success roasting.
I gave it another try, Mike. I bought some Sweet Maria's Moka Java SWP decaf and have roasted one batch so far in my Hottop -2K+. I brewed some in my Aero Press and it was decent. Don't ask me about flavor notes, though! I have more work to do on that profile since my dry end was at 4:12 minutes (33.7%), the browning phase was 5:21 minutes (43%) and development was 2:54 minutes (23.3%). Since I didn't have experience with this bean, I ended the roast when the beans were 375°. I'll deliver the rest of this batch to my brother and try another roast soon, making changes to improve the outcome.
Nice Job Adrian. Yea, so a little longer on the dry, a little shorter on the browning and you should notice some improvement.
I am using a 2016 model Gene Cafe CBR101 for decaf roasts. The drum has very little thermal mass, and requires a higher charge temperature than a classical metal drum would use.
However, your broad points are spot on, lower temperatures (applied heat energy) are used than what are applied to non-decaf roasts. My spouse is the consumer of the decaf in the house, and she tends to favor Full-City+ roasts (as this is what the majority of mass marketed Decaf coffee has programmed her tastebuds to enjoy). But she does enjoy chocolate/nutty/buttery flavors which can be obtained with darker roasts.
I totally agree that "full yellow" is essentially impossible to spot, and smell becomes the only metric to determine when the drying phase is complete. The sound of first crack is also more gentle than most non-decaf beans (with the exception of some peaberries). This is periodically more difficult with the various strains of Covid rolling through (and the associated lingering loss of the ability to smell). But, the moisture loss percentages I am getting at full-city+ is sitting around 13.75 percent, so it appears to be on target.
Thank you for shooting this informative video, as it is a continuing effort for me to gain more knowledge in this craft.
The decafs I am roasting right now are from Coffeebeancorral. They are:
Brazil Mogiana (SWP)
Colombia Excelso EP (EAP)
Costa Rica La Magnolia (SWP)
of these, my wife most enjoys the Brazil for it's strong chocolate and nutty character. But, there are things she enjoys on the other two as well.
Thanks for sharing your experience with the Genie Cafe and roasting decaf. Sounds like your wife is happy so thats cool. I appreciate your comments about moisture loss. That is a really helpful way to gauge roast level consistency in conjunction with temps. Thanks for your encouraging comments and for watching my video!
Can you share some information about the roasting profile you're using for the SWP beans? Thanks!
@@Yirgamalabar not sure if you are asking me or @addertooth1 for the profile. Are you roasting with the Genie Cafe?
@@VirtualCoffeeLabyes, I'm using a Gene Cafe roaster and was asking addertooth1, but I'd you have some suggestions I'd be happy to hear. Thanks!
@@Yirgamalabar I know the Genie Cafe is slow to roast and I'm not sure of your roast level preference. I don't have a specific roast profile for decaf. It depends on the coffee, roaster etc.. but i think my coffee roasting essentials playlist including the 3 tips for new home coffee roaster video would be helpful for you as you consider how to maximize flavor for your roasts. Sorry I don't have a recipe to share for the Genie Cafe.
I have been roasting with poppers for years, but just recently started using a Behmor. For decaf I have roasting on the 1/2 lb setting, but loading 1/2 lb PLUS 2 more ounces, since decaf usually roasts abut 20 to 25 % faster. The extra coffee slows down the roast to more closely match the Behmor’s 1/2 lb profiles and times. Obviously you still have to pay close attention to the roast, especially near the end.
I like how you use batch size to influence your roast speed. Pretty cool. Nice job! Thanks for sharing.
Thank you so much for your great work Mike. Greetings from Germany! :)
Hello Fynn. Thanks for watching my videos! What type of roaster do you have?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab a Giesen WD 15A ;)
OK, so I did roast up my last half pound of Columbia EA on my Behmor roaster, and thought I would share what I tried, and the effects it had on my phase times.
I pre-heated to a temp to 150 F (previously used 200 F), then I loaded the drum in and began the roast as a manual 1/2-pound roast. I ran the first minute of Drying at 75% heating (P4) then went to 100%. After 4 minutes elapsed time in the Drying Phase, I lowered heat to 75% and set a fast drum speed. I left the heating at 75% until first cracks, where I dropped heating to 50% (P3).
Since I was roasting decaf coffee, determination of Dry End/Browning begin was difficult visually. The only clue I had was when the smell was noticeably more grassy, or like baking, which was a little into Browning. My goals in changing things on this roast were to increase my phase times from my previous decaf roast, and to decrease the DTR. And that's exactly what happened.
My (estimated) Drying Phase time was 6:30 (previously 5:00); my (estimated) Browning Phase time was 5:30 (previously 4:00); and my Final Development phase was 1:30 (same as previously); which gave me an overall roast time of 13:30 (previously 10:30, i.e. 3 minutes longer) and a DTR of 11%.
But I really lucked out. The maximum time for a 1/2-pound roast on the Behmor is (oh no!) 13:30! So, I pulled the beans for cooling just a few seconds before the roaster shut itself off! Kinda scary, that has not ever happened before. But the roast ended correctly. Will have to see how it tastes after sitting for a few days.
Thanks for sharing the details of that roast Lou. That's exciting and scarry at the same time. could you have added additional time on the timer? Let me know how it tastes!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab No, I had maxed out the time. I was fortunate that the roaster turned off (literally shut off) exactly at the point I was pulling the beans. Whew!
The decaf really tastes good and I am quite happy with the roast. Can I tell it in a taste test against regular coffee, probably so. But is it a big difference in taste, not nearly. As I write this (at 9:30 PM local time), I am enjoying a cup of my decaf, just after finishing a small bowl cherry cordial ice cream. That was a nice pairing!
How do you know when the drying phase ends and the browning phase begins?
@@AM2PMReviews Thanks for your question. Raw coffee is usually an olive color or something like that. As heat is applied to the beans they begin to loose moisture and begin to change color. They begin to yellow. When the beans are fully yellow that is the end of the drying phase and the browning phase now begins.
@@AM2PMReviews Mike pretty much says it all in his reply. There are many times I really have a difficult time telling exactly where the first phase ends and the middle phase starts. I try to watch the beans and smell the roast. The beans seem to start tumbling slower when they are close to the end of drying. I don't know why that is; maybe it's because steam is being released or something. They even seem sometimes to look a tiny bit bigger just at dry end. They probably aren't really any larger though.
Related to your question, I would really recommend having a good light that more accurately shows bean color. I turn off the internal light in my Behmor roaster, and instead use an external light. The internal light is not very bright and has a yellowish color which makes seeing the beans and determining their color change more difficult. The external light is a very bright LED bulb with a color temperature of 5000K, which makes seeing the beans and determining their color much easier.
Great video, I've also noticed that some decafs have a very quiet first crack, so definitely need to go by time and temp instead of color and sound.
Hi Keith, yea, that is a great point I forgot to mention. Decaf is challenging to roast well! Thanks for watching my video. I appreciate your comments
Interesting video, thanks Mike. That makes me want to try a decaf again. I roasted a decaf several years back with my Gene Café for my brother who cannot drink caffeine. It was my first experience with that and he was not enthusiastic about the results so I didn't do a follow up. I'm paying closer attention to my roasts now, so maybe I'm ready to try again! My next order will include a decaf but this time it will be with the Hottop.
Let me know how that goes Adrian. You might want to experiment with the percentages of your phases. Some decafs like to go a couple degrees longer for the drop. You might want to experiment with the middle phase and try and draw our more of the carmelization. If you have been trying to hit the 30% mark for browning, try 35-40%.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I am a roasting rookie but roast exclusively decaf via a Popper. In my limited experience, I have found that starting slower on the heat and running the development phase longer seems to produce better results. Also, I have to phase via smell: different decaf origins are different in color (beyond caffeinated vs. decaf)
@@brandongallite7579 Thanks for sharing! Yea, I agree. Any type of special process coffee including decaf gets a slightly lower charge temperature (in my drum roaster) and I am a bit more gentle pushing the heat in the first 2 minutes of the roast.
If you’re in Australia try CoffeeSnobs Decaf Wow and this is a blend and it’s amazing sooo fruity. The only thing is it’s very small beans but they are amazing roasted if you nail it. I prefer a lighter roast.
Thanks for sharing your decaf experience. It sounds delicious. Nowhere near Australia unfortunately.
@@VirtualCoffeeLabjust for shots and giggles I tried it as a pour over in my Hario Switch and during the bloom it was writhing like it was alive mind you it was only 2 hours after roasting it …. I couldn’t wait. 😇
That particular roast has developed into one of my favourites. The CoffeeSnobs Decaf Wow in a pour over tastes like warm melon butter, it’s so good
Very completely explained! You always find a new theme! I never roasted decoffeinated beans. I always sleep well after having drunk a nomal treated coffee. And there are only few guests, who prefer decaffeinated coffee. But I am glad to know more about now! Thanks for the tips! Would a colourmeter be useful?-- Always like your speech very much!
Hi Erhard, I don't own a color meter. As far as roast consistency, I don't think a color meter is necessary. I think the color meter would help determine the roast level. So, if you are roasting production with multiple batches, you can zero in on a very specif number on the meter within the decimal. Do you have a color meter?
I roast by ear, and decaf is hard to even catch a first crack, so I did what SM recommended, put in a modicum of regular green beans so that you can hear the first crack. It isn't perfect science, but the results justify the means to me, and I now get a good cup of decaf without under or over roasting my decaf.
Hi @birage that is a great tip for decaf roasters. It will help them detect first crack. I do see a problem with the timing though. The regular coffee will most likely crack at a different time than the decaf coffee because it is different in size, moisture, origin and so on. That means the time you mark first crack to determine the end of the browning phase and beginning of development phase will most likely be off. But, if you are not able to hear first crack anyway, I can see the the benefit of including that small amount of regular beans. Most important, you are happy with your cup. Thanks again for sharing your tip and for watching my video!
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Yes. I agree with you, knowing that the decaf will not react like the regular green bean. Somehow, it seems to work out for me, so I can only assume the roasting profiles are not 'too' far off. Short of your exacting methods, I end up with a better cup than when I miss the crack altogether, so it is my preferred method right now, until perhaps I find a better way for me. Thanks for the reply.
I had given up on roasting decaf. The flavor always seemed flat or burnt. This inspires me to try again.
Nice. I’m glad. What are you using to roast coffee? As far as decaf goes, I’ve been roasting an water processed Colombian decaf that is really good at a medium roast. Mmmm, very enjoyable.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I've been using a FreshRoast. I really like the results, although I haven't been using the extension tube and have plans to get one very soon. I've been using dry processed Ethiopian coffee the past few months. It's more of a challenge to get an even roast so the extension tube should help. For a decaf, a water processed Colombian seems like a good option for a sweet even roast.
@@danielshinkle1047 if I take the roast too far I get a slightly burned marshmallow note that easily moves towards ashy. So, consider ending the roast a little early and that might help. I have heard it said that when roasting decaf coffee, consider it more like how you would roast a dry process coffee.
It makes sense to me because I see similar behavior to heat between the two.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Given my recent experience with dry process, that is very helpful. Roasting dry process has forced me to rely more on my nose, since the color isn't as consistent. I tend to rely on sight and sound, and am discovering that smell is key.
When I bought my first kilo of decaf I was astounded at the difference in colour, I of course ruined my first roast, but have been roasting decaf for 6 months on my Genecafe and now can roast a bit more confidently. Have you done a video on roasting with a Genecafe?
Hi @Anarchsis, thanks for your comment and for watching my videos. No, I have not done a video on the Genecafe. Have you been looking at your different phase times that I have been talking about in my videos? I'm curious to see how the roaster performs. I've been doing some reading that roast time are 15-22 minutes long? I did see a video with a 12 minute roast. What are your thoughts on my "3 tips for new home coffee roasters" using the Geniecafe? Hope you're doing well down under...
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Hi Mike, I’ve had to delete my first response as it didn’t answer your question adequately.
I just got the Gene Cafe CBR-101.. But can't see the yellow on these decaf beans or hear the first crack - any advice ?.. Think I got lucky today with the roast.. But it's pure luck i think :) Roasted 200g beans.. Preheated with 180 *C - and then did 230 *C.. think yellow was around 5:00 and first crack around 8:30. Here i turned the temp down to 215 *C and then dropped the beans at 11:20.. Which gives a ratio at 44,12% - 30,88% - 25,00%.. Haven't tasted anything yet - but looked good :)
Hey Mike, have your ever roasted a decaf to full City +? I have some folks that like a bit darker coffee and I have discovered that it is difficult to maintain the 50,30,20 stages when going to a bit darker. sometimes if I start a a lower charge temp then sometimes the roast can stall and then it never goes through FC or at least not that I can tell. and some Decaf's seem to be much more quiet when hitting FC. any thoughts?
Hi Steven. The 50/30/20 rule was meant as a starting point and primarily for a medium roast. I have gone city plus on a decaf and the middle phase was more like 40% for a 11-12 minute roast on the drum roaster.
Generally speaking you will want to maintain a slightly higher ror when entering first crack to keep enough momentum going.
We’re about to jump into roasting coffee but we enjoy our current supplier’s decaf air roasted coffee and espresso ☕️ it’s definitely not what decaf once was👍🏻👍🏻☕️
Yea, water process, sugar cane process are more popular now and really make a big difference in flavor. I am roasting an ethiopian decaf i got from royal coffee that is fruity and really delicious.
Mike, another great video!! When I first started roasting, one of my goals was to get decaf coffee with taste and flavor indistinguishable from regular coffee. I'm still on that quest, but I'm getting a lot closer! In the past, the taste of decaf always disappointed me. Oddly enough, caffeine does NOT have a desirable flavor and has been described as bitter-tasting. So something else must have happened back then to corrupt the good flavor of regular coffee when the caffeine was removed. And I'm quite sure it was the process of removing the caffeine that did it.
One coffee I have had success with is a Columbia EA Decaf I got from a professional roaster I know in Grand Rapids. The decaffeination process for that coffee uses a solvent called ethyl acetate (EA). Although EA sounds like it would be a dangerous thing to use, it is described as "[presenting] much less health and environmental hazard than chlorinated and aromatic organic solvents used formerly." Anyway, I roasted some and it tasted quite good. Honestly, not as good as some of the better regular Columbians I have had, but not a bad taste at all!!
But the best thing of all happened when we had some friends over who can only drink decaf. As my friend was chatting with his wife and sipping a cup of my roast, I overheard him say to her, "now THIS is good decaf." And his wife, who usually puts in some kind of sweetened creamer, decided to try it without ANY, and said, "I like this better just as it is ... it has kind of a nice fruity flavor." Oh boy, that was it. That was all I needed to hear!
But I think the next time I roast it, I will use your advice of being more gentle in the Drying Phase. On my Behmor, that will likely mean a lower preheat temperature (maybe 150 F instead of 200 F) and maybe even starting drying with 75% heat (P4), or maybe manually modulating between 75% and 100% during the first part of drying. My phases came out 48%, 38%, and 14%, but I might like to see browning a tad longer and final a tad shorter. I am thinking I can still get an even better tasing roast than last time. This is fun, and I'm gaining more and more friends as I give away my research and development coffee! :-)
Most of the Decaf we are roasting here is Colombian EA processed. I think they use sugar cane as the base to get the ethyl acetate. Have you experienced scorching or tipping with the Behmor? You may find it hard to keep your percentages if you lower your preheat temp?
That is a great story about your friends enjoying your decaf. I'm sure it was a proud and pleasing moment to realize your roasting skills are such that people really enjoy your roasts! Thanks for your kind and encouraging words and for sharing your decaf roasting experience Lou.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Scorching or tipping with the Behmor? I think I may have experienced it just one time, but it was not with a decaf coffee. I was roasting a Nicaragua coffee and I preheated to a chamber (B) temp of 220 F instead of my usual 200 F. With some of the momentum of the heating elements, my roast chamber temp at 1:00 into the roast was 235 F. I did not record my starting temperature, but it must have been even higher than that! I'm thinking that may have caused what looked a little bit like some scorching, and some tipping. But in my notes from that roast, I indicate that it tasted quite good.
Any recommendations on green decaf?
Hello Nick, There are different types of decaffeinating processes.
As you look for a decaf green coffee, watch carefully for the type of process. Most specialty decaf uses water processing. There are two main facilities who decaffeinate including Descamex Mountain Water Process and Swiss Water. There is aslo EA decaf which is Ethyl acetate.
Sugar cane is one of the fruits that can be used for this process and this might be why they make the claim "natural process".
I have roasted both Colombian and Ethiopian decaf coffee and it was very good. The most recent decaf is a colombian de cana huila natural decaf which I have not roasted yet from cafe imports.
If decaf bean are less dense, and you are dosing the roast by weight, they will have more volume, at least at the beginning. If you are roasting the same mass, it seems to me they would take the same heat/energy, regardless of the volume.
The point about density was related to heat transfer within the bean structure. Not necessarily bean size.
Mine always comes out with an ashy dark color.
Sometimes, ashy notes can be caused by too high of heat in the early part of the roast. Which roaster are you using?
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Behmor 2000AB
How dark are you taking your coffee @Dark Black Yonder ? What is your total roast time? Are you tracking your times and temperatures? Several things to consider when roasting on your Behmor would be to pre-warm the roaster. See my most recent behmor video. Try using the high drum speed for your roast. Lastly, depending on your roast level preference, you may need to back off on the 100% power during the first couple of minutes of your roast. Let me know about your times and temps and I might be able to offer a couple of other suggestions.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab I’ve tried a variety of roast levels with different beans. I’ve logged everything.
I was using FC as my guide but after a bunch of failed roast I believe that by the time I get to FC the damage had been done. The coffee beans were dark but not like a dark roast more like a charred color. The last two attempts have provided the best outcomes and I think I may be a couple of roast away from having it dialed in. Which brew method do you prefer to taste test your roast?
@@maddogsstar I prefer the clever dripper (immersion) which doesn't rely heavily on a technique. I pour my water first and then add grounds, stirr them in, steep for 3:15 and then release.
The Behmor 2000AB+ is a great roaster in many respects, but the built in temperature probes will never give you an accurate bean temperature so that you can compare what Mike or anyone else does on other roasters. I did take into great consideration Mike's advice to be easy on the beans during the drying phase, then cranked up the temperature until I got close to 1st crack. At this point I back off the heat so that it doesn't burn the roast at the end. Using both A and B temperatures of the Behmor, I preheat up to about 220°F. Then I start with P2 to get a 13 minute roast which works out well for 200 g of beans, but immediately go to P4 during the drying phase. Once the grassy odor has gone (about 3-4 minutes in, sensed by occasionally opening the door a crack), ramp up to P5 and press the D to increase the drum speed. Once the A temperature reaches 325°F, back off the heater to P4. When the A temperature reaches 345°F back the heat off to P3 or P2. The goal is to keep the beans at the A temperature in the mid-350°F for about 2 minutes or so. On the Behmor, if you don't get the A temperature into the 350s, it tastes woody. If you let the temperature go above 360°F, it takes on a burnt taste.
Mike has said time is an important factor. Keeping the roast time in the mid 350's for 2 to 2-1/2 minutes has been producing a nice coffee for me. I will be playing with time more now.
I'm glad you are seeing some success with the Behmor Larry. You are right, you can't expect any sort of temperature comparison between roasters BUT they should be used to understand the progression of our roast. I think that is probably the most important point in what I try to convey to people.
For those people roasting on a Behmor, there is an important purpose for the dry phase which is to apply heat safety without causing defects, getting it to the point where it turns yellow. On a Behmor, we want to try and do this as quickly as possible. 5-6 minutes for the dry phase is a great goal. I try and keep my heat as high as i can go without the Behmor safety feature kicking in. On my roaster that is 325 on the B temp. Then while toggling back and forth between P5 and P5 (we are talking manual mode now), riding that high edge of temps. From dry end until the end of the roast, I am trying to slowly, slowly let me temps drop so I can get 30-35 percent of my total roast time happen in the browning/middle phase. Too fast and you fly into first and then second crack. Too slow and you drag your roast for boring flat coffee with a paper taste. I would recommend to anyone to checkout my Behmor Playlist to watch some of my roasts. I realize there are other ways to roast with the Behmor and if you are getting great results, that is wonderful. My way isn't the only way but is seems consistent for me AND if follows basic roasting concepts I promote here on this channel. If anyone seeing this wants to learn more about my approach to roasting coffee, checkout my "Coffee Roasting Essentials" playlist.
Larry, thanks for sharing how you roast on the Behmor and the results you are getting. I know there are many people who read these comments and the dialog is really a valuable resource!
I kind of wish there were an actual forum for those with the Behmor. Mike, I remember you telling me that you don't roast as dark as I do. I would say that while the beans were darker in colour, they were not well developed. I had to use about 28g to make 6 cups of coffee instead of my usual 23g. I don't know how you managed to roast decaf with a B temperature of 325 without slamming through development all the way to second crack right away. When I'm using manual roasting at P5, my B temperature is only at about 280°F when I hear 1st crack. Mind you, I kept the heat low during the drying phase (P3) for the first 6 minutes.
For my latest roast I kept the drying phase at P3 for the first 6 minutes, at which time the grassy odors go down. Then I increase the drum speed and ramp the temperature up to P5 until my A temperature gets to the mid 320s, at which time I back off to P4. Once I'm in the mid 340s, I back it down to P3, then cycle between P2 and P3 once I reach the mid to high 350s. If I let the temperature go above 360°F, the coffee will take on a smokey bitter taste, so that's why I keep the temperature below 360. I kept the beans roasting in the high 350s for about 2.5 minutes. What surprised me was that I hit 2nd crack without going above 360°F. However, the coffee is not smokey. My B temperature peaked at 273°F in all this.
I used a 1lb cycle for a 1/2 lb of decaf columbian. This allowed me to get a 15 minute roast. Based on smells (loss of the grassiness), dry time was 6.5 minutes on P3. Next 5 minutes at P5/P4 to get to 1st crack (A temp about 335°F), then 2.5 minutes switching between P3 and P2 to maintain an A temperature in the high 350's.
Just a reminder to others, the A and B temperatures do not directly compare to temperatures in other roasters.
@Larry B i think we are using different approaches to our roast. watch this video th-cam.com/video/F2SjWBtC_bo/w-d-xo.html and see how I manage my power/heat settings. I'm using P5 for the first part of the roast. Using P3, like you are is causing your roast to go long and then get hot and slingshot through development. Please watch the video, even though it is for an espresso roast this will get you close to where you want to be.
@@VirtualCoffeeLab Thanks, I'll try that for one of my future decaf roasts. I just remember you telling us to be gentle on the dry phase for decaf. Of course, the high setting of the Behmor is a gentler than what your gas roaster is capable of doing.
Exactly Larry. If there are roasting defects then you can reduce your power a little. I would start with your drum on the highest speed just to keep the coffee moving. That might help with the scorching.
So your saying you use same profile as regular coffee. If you do this it would burn. Later on you talk about lowering temperature. Seems your confused to me
Thanks for your message. I could see why this might be confusing and I could have done a better job of addressing this. Let me clarify, please.
My first point should not have said "regular coffee". It should have said a "dry process coffee". I should not have included the statement including washed coffees. Sorry about that. Decaf coffee behaves much like a natural/dry process coffee while roasting.
I think my second point helps clear up my first point a bit more as I talk about heat management and the sensitivity of decaf and dry-process coffees to heat. I think that is why you said: "you would burn it". I think my examples are helpful. I do stand by my examples of how to change the charge temp, soak, and amount of energy.
Thank you for pointing this out. I think another video on this topic might be helpful.
Did my reply help clear things up?
Again, thank you for pointing this out.
Mike
Decaff looks horrible, great video Mike.
Ha ha, thanks Shane. That coffee has been through a lot with the decaf process. the color is always blotchy with some dark shades. Thanks for watching the video!