Hey all! This will be the first of at least 3 videos on Numenor's decline and downfall. Once I started researching I realized this was definitely not something to attempt in one go 😅
Parallel of the human condition, wanting to reach for more and having a cursed voice saying, "look what's being withheld from you" and so the human heart despises divine wisdom, even though that wisdom is there to keep humanity from destroying itself.
I've always been really impressed by the internal debate over war that Tolkien gave to Tar-Meneldur in _Unfinished Tales._ The hideously squalid excuses of both those who are hawks out of cruelty and those who are doves out of cowardice make my blood run cold: "Will they say to Eru: 'At least your enemies were among them'? ... Will they say to Eru: 'At least I spilled no blood'?" Very few people seem prepared to reckon with a moral dilemma actually _being_ a dilemma, but Tolkien could see it, and could articulate it enough for a reader to see it too.
I also like Meneldur's willingness, as king, to accept responsibility for things outside his control. *He's* not about to personally endorse plunder and violence - but by preparing for war he's inviting the probability of someone, somewhere committing an atrocity they otherwise wouldn't have. He has an equally good excuse for taking the 'wait and see' approach. There's no *active* threat; Gil-galad can't even identify what/who this new "darkness" is supposed to be, and since he's the one asking for help, surely the burden of proof is on him. But Meneldur rejects that as well; however defensible his inaction in the present might seem, it could put the lives of his allies and subjects at avoidable risk in the future. I have reservations about some of his parenting strategies, but in terms of moral fiber, kings don't get much better. 9.5/10 would swear fealty to.
Mark Twain said, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it." That seems fine. The far green country might get boring after a hundred quadrillion years
Oh dear, then what does that say about me? The older I get the more sympathetic I become towards the Numenoreans in that period just after the first war against Sauron.....you know, around the time the Valar sent the emissaries to discuss why death is the Gift of Men, and not a punishment.
That's apparently a big part of evil in Star Wars lore as well. I watched a bunch of videos summarizing Star Wars novels and other non-movie sources and the Emperor, supposedly the thing behind all of his evil, is an incredibly overpowering fear of death. It became a curse for him, trapping him in his cursed life, and even when his body was killed, he persisted as a massively powerful, but always suffering evil spirit.
There are two good Tolkien channels on TH-cam… Girl Next Gondor and Jess of the Shire. They dive deep and analyze and study the Legendarium (it’s almost like listening to a professor’s lecture), while every other channel either repeats the same info, delves into fan theories or relies on the movies. These two channels are a joy
It might be inappropriate to mention here, but Rainbow Dave of Tolkien Untangled is also a great source of Tolkien lore on TH-cam. He retells the stories vividly.
The story of Aldarion is my favorite story from the Silmarillion. The wander lust, longing, fleeting reconciliation, "ways that things could have gone differently", connections to the future, long passage of time due to long life...and all taking place in the hazy memory bliss of young Numenor. Beautiful. Great video.
All the characters in The Mariner's Wife are at least somewhat sympathetic, and they're at least *trying* to do what they see as right, and yet they all fail so spectacularly. It's glorious 🥹
@@GirlNextGondor The only two things I am really sad that Tolkien never around to writing are more early Numenor stories and a fully updated and completed Fall of Gondolin.
I don't understand people who say Aldarion and Erendis is their favorite story from the Silmarillion. Every time I read it, I get disgusted by Aldarion's behavior. In the end, the Sea was too tempting of a lover for him to devote any of his life to his wife, daughter, or country - as he was not a functioning King for many years.
We just got back from a two week driving tour in England and Scotland..we paid a visit to Wolvercote cemetery, me as a returning pilgrim, my wife supporting her nerdy husband. We shared a kiss there of course. Illuminating as ever. Thanks GNG.
Ahh Numenor perhaps the most obvious proof that the Valar are [bleep]ing clueless when it comes to the Children of Illuvatar. Just set the Edain down in sight of Valinor and tell them not to touch. Surely nothing can go wrong with this brilliant plan! No wonder Eru kicked them out of the world and made it round. They mucked up the Elves and the Edain.
I guess they have the excuse of not having as much direct experience with Men, but the whole Flight of the Noldor episode should have clued them in....
I have heard about this channel and am glad to be finally seeing it. I love these analyses! Also, you have to explain who the characters are in your beautiful artwork, including the persona of yourself (the brown-eyed blonde apparent elf). I recognize some of these figures - but not all! 😂
While positioning Númenor so close to the Undying Lands was clearly a mistake, I also think that their defeat of Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron proved in the long run to be a critical factor as well in the downfall of Númenor. Sauron was on the verge of winning that war and there was no one in Middle-Earth capable of stopping him. Then the Númenoreans showed up and crushed him. It's easy to see at that point how some of them would look at the Elves whom they had just saved and think why should Elves and not Men, who just defeated Sauron, be the ones who are immortal?
There is a saving grace, though. Where did the House of Valandil, the Lords of Andunie, come from? From the line of Silmarien, who was passed over as eldest daughter of the King, since this was before Numenor's laws of succession evolved into absolute primogeniture. While the line of Tar-Meneldur would disgrace itself more and more, the line of Silmarien stayed Faithful and eventually redeemed the Dunedain. Which makes one wonder if allowing daughters to be heirs earlier on may have led to a much healthier Numenor.
Aldarion and his situation is so interesting, and the effect it has on his father, wife, daughter, and grandchildren. He ends sexism (for selfish reasons) but seems to start racism (the blood of Elros) that would later lead to Gondor’s civil war. He’s right to face Sauron and ally with Elves, but that leads to domestic neglect and the cutting of more trees… and eventually colonies, several centuries later. But should he have ignored Sauron? There’s also the case of Silmarien… should she, who led to Elendil and Aragorn, have been the first Queen? But would she then be the ancestor of someone like Ar-Pharazon instead? It just seems like every choice is wrong. It reminds me of Finwe, Miriel, and Feanor. There’s just that taint of Morgoth. Because even if Sauron did submit to the Valar, would Aldarion and all future Numenor have refused the sea? Unlikely. The whole story seems like inspiration for the grays of Game of Thrones.
Yes, Silmariën should have been the first Ruling Queen of Numenor. Her father Tar-Elendil gave her the Ring of Barahir and a Mithril fillet as consolation prizes. It's a good thing she got the Ring because it must be worn by Aragorn later.
Silmariën settled in Andúnië and her line of Lords and Ladies ruled over the Faithful who were there until Ar-Pharazon forced all of the Faithful to settle in Romenna. The blood line of Silmariën was composed of righteous rulers, no Pharazons
@@Enerdhil but why didn’t he change the law for her? Or Elros write that law to begin with? Why do Elendil’s realms of Arnor and Gondor never have a ruling Queen?
@@ghostdreamer7272 Because Aldarion was doing a good thing (gender equality for the royals) for a crummy reason (personal issues with his wife and daughter), so he had no principled reason to do things for Silmarien and her descendants. As for why Elros didn't go with absolute primogeniture, he was following the example of the Noldor. Fingolfin had a sister (Irime) who went with them to Beleriand, and a daughter (Aredhel) and niece (Galadriel). I can't work out whether Gil-galad being High King after Turgon meant that Galadriel was passed over, but at least Tolkien Gateway seems to think that the original laws were based on the Noldor's. (See the Tolkien Gateway article "Law of Succession in Numenor".)
@@ghostdreamer7272 That's a great question. I think since it is an election year we can blame the Patriarchy for keeping women out of positions of power. 🙄
Manwë: Verily hast thou turned from the righteous path, and opened thine ears and thy heart to the lies of the Enemy. Tar-Atanamir: New number, who dis?
Yes, Aldarion the golden playboy is indeed the point of origin for many of Numènor's later troubles. Had I been Tar-Meneldur I would've sat down my wayward son and pushed him against the wall: "Either you stay here and father a couple of boys or I'm gonna find myself another heir you stubborn ass!" Erendis was also quite stubborn but I still think he treated her shabbily. Aldarion could afford to spend years without counting while she couldn't.
My theory is that Aldarion's first and only love was Uinen. You can say it was the Ocean, but me thinks 'twas the Siren of the Sea who stole his heart.
@@danielstride198 Yup, largely due to her mistreatment at the hands of Aldarion. You could almost say she invented generational trauma, were it not for Feanor's lock on that particular patent.
The fall of Numenor has always vaguely bothered me. Ar-Pharazôn and his guys fall from Grace and really ramp up the Numenorian domination and subjugation of Middle Earth. Which, mind you, had been pretty awful forever. Yet, if he never sails West and challenges the Valar, Numenor never sinks and they pillage Middle Earth and pretty much create Sauron's Utopia while the Valar (aside from Ulmo) do jack shit. Not surprising from the Valar. I just feel like Sauron and Ar-Pharazôn were 100% right about attempting to rattle some Valinorian cages; but they were right for 100% the wrong reasons.
To me, it seems like the Valar learned far too little from the aftermath of their decision to bring the Elves to Valinor. So partially repeated their error with the Edain.
@@Enerdhil It wasn't Eru's will. The decision to bring the elves to Valinor was hotly debated amongst the Valar, and both Ulmo and Mandos were especially opposed to the plan. Bringing the elves to Valinor indirectly resulted in the rebellion of the Noldor and the death of the Two Trees.
@@TheMarcHicks I love how much of the Silmarillion is a story of "mistakes into miracles". It was a mistake to bring the Elves to Aman, but that resulted in a lot of beauty, and the Elves became forever tied to it, even a lot of the Dark Elves. It was a mistake for the Noldor to fly to Beleriand, but that resulted in a lot of heroism and songs. The mistakes aren't looked back upon with only regret, they become forever ingrained in the shape of the world, its foundational myths, the stars in the sky.
@@TheMarcHicks I love how much of the Silmarillion is a story of "mistakes into miracles". It was a mistake to bring the Elves to Aman, but that resulted in a lot of beauty, and the Elves became forever tied to it, even a lot of the Dark Elves. It was a mistake for the Noldor to fly to Beleriand, but that resulted in a lot of heroism and songs. The mistakes aren't looked back upon with only regret, they become forever ingrained in the shape of the world, its foundational myths, the stars in the sky.
@@tominiowa2513 Yes. By the luck of the algorithm, I got notified about one of his early Steven Gibbs videos. He did an epic video on Blind Guardian. I think he is keeping the old channel name and just using his full name when he comments or replies.
Aldarion's requirement that heirs only marry into the Line of Elros reminds me of the politics leading to the Kin-strife in the Third Age. We're probably meant to be wary of that part of his law. On the other hand, if Gondor had followed Aldarion's law regarding female heirs, they would have chosen Arvedui over Earnil II, and maybe then the kingship wouldn't have ended with Earnil's son Earnur. (Well, now I'm looking it up, it wasn't specifically Aldarion's law that Arvedui was basing his claim on, but the law/custom that came after Aldarion where the oldest child would be the heir even if she was a daughter with younger brothers.)
Bravo M'lady as we have found thee in our TH-cam ventures. We are also preparing vids on this subject as the Rings of Heresy Season 2 approaches. May the blessings of the Valar be with thee.❤🎉
Was the Downfall inevitable? If so, the Valar had a lot to answer for. Apparently, as Tolkien says in the Waldman Letter, "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!". Although _danger_ is not inevitability. But it certainly appears inevitable in the context of the legendarium and Arda Marred, where decline seems the normal state of things, as long as one looks at a large enough time scale.
… her son Anárion (no, not *that* Anárion) … Love the mental penetration that sees the long-reaching strategic ramifications of Aldarion’s succession tactic. I think that’s what I appreciate the most about this channel: you look into details that I, for one, tend to gloss over in the first couple of readings of Tolkien.
"So, we're getting a little antsy about mortality, are we?" "No, it's fine, really, it's FINE!" "Can't move among the hoi polloi of Endor without it going to your head, huh?" "NO! It's fine, I tell you!" "Wait, let me guess? You're getting a bit envious about the Eldar, aren't you!" "SHUT UP! IT'S FINE DAMMIT!" "Everything's fine...really...."
Thanks for covering the fall of Númenor, it’s a really cool topic and you gotta pull info from all over. Maybe Aldarion shouldn’t have married 😅… I never thought about how him changing the laws of succession and rules for marriage led to people beefing about lineages. His pops really pushed marriage to Erendis though… He loved her for sure but everyone knew he loved the sea more. Keep up the good work 💪
All the chapters about Aldarion in The Fall of Númenor are among my favorite stories in the legendarium. I think I've mentioned it in the comments of another video already, but there's something about how... humble and mundane, for lack of a better word, the characters' (mostly domestic) problems appear. The audio book brings these characters to life even further, in my opinion.
@@kaptenteo Aldarion demonstrated how to behave if your marriage and family mean nothing to you. That butthead destroyed the lives of his wife and daughter, and picked up fans along the way.
@@Enerdhil Yeah, it's awful. I meant to say that in a world with so much fantasy and grandeur, this particular family's story has more to do with interpersonal problems more akin to what you more often see in the real world.
@@kaptenteo I am always surprised to see many comments stating that Aldarion and Erendis is their favorite story in Unfinished Tales. This could explain why many young people are not getting married or why there are so many divorces.😞
@@Enerdhil Yeah, I understand. It's definitely not a story with characters anyone should look up to. It's well written, though, and felt closer to home than many other stories in the Legendarium. Like I said in the original post, the audio book really helped bring the characters to life, as well. It's definitely a tragedy, though. One of the most potent, I'd say.
I wouldn't be surprised that one reason why Tolkien grew depressed at The New Shadow is that, with Numenor, he had already charted one human society in its fall from grace - even if was a not quite so-quick "satiety with good". But the mythological truth already there and explored in what I suspect was a far more satisfying way - as story and legend (more than history) - than as some sort of contemporaneous story like LotR. For that matter with Lotho and the Shire he had already covered a contemporaneous account of that happening too, if in somewhat truncated fashion (though I recall your Shire is a bucolic dystopia thesis ;) ). Whereas the legend of Numenor afforded him opportunity to weave some wider themes and purposes. But in both Numenor and the New Shadow, and for that matter with the Noldor and others in the First Age there is an inevitability to the decline, if not to the specifics. In the end, nothing of Arda Marred can be wholly good - but then also nothing from the Music can be wholly ill. After all, out of Numenor ultimately came Estel.
I believe it is the Numenor chapter in the Akallabêth of the Simarillion that mentions that early in Numenor's history, elves from Aman travelled to Numenor and taught the Numenorians things. "And thence at times the Firstborn would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset." As Númenor darkened this travel ended, fairly early in that descent as I read between the line . But that it occurred at all is remarkable. It also contrasts with what seems to be the lack of travel between Númenor and Middle Earth/Eriador in these early days. Who would do this? That is rather easy, it would be the Teleri sea elves. Perhaps they take on passengers at times, but that is unlikely to include elves living in Valinor itself. When would this happen? Potentially at any time except during the first age. The Valar closed Valinor and created a wall of mountains that presumably forced the sea elves to move away from the sea. The entire quest to get the Silmaril to Valinor loses its poignancy if you could just take a regular tour. But at any other time, such travel could happen. Is this what Tolkien intended? Potentially this might be an idea Tolkien later abandoned. I have not read the works after Unfinished Tales, including any of his letters, but no-where else except in the tale of Numenor do I recall reading this. What is the impact on the story? It doesn't impact the main characters. The Noldor exiles that choose to stay in Middle Earth obviously wouldn't use this to just visit. The character who might have used this is Cirdan the Shipwright and his followers. He takes on the task of remaining in Middle Earth, but he might have visited the Teleri town on the coast of Aman at some time.
The downfall of Númenor started with Tar-Aldarion, a mariner and shipwright, marrying a radical tree-hugger, then was cemented by him forcing his useless, bitter daughter onto the throne instead of any, ANY of the capable men of Elros' line in a position to marry into the throne and rule.
Your videos are wonderful. But the autogenerated closed captions are terrible. For example, every time you mentioned Ancalime, the caption would read anal, or anime. LOL I know it's a pain, but for us folks that really rely on CCs, if you could find a way that is convenient for you to make the captions actually say what they are supposed to, it would be a great help, as the autogenerated ones are sooooo horrible. TIA. Keep up the good work!
@@acuerdox Sorry, I did not realize you were asking about Helen on Lexi's channel.😅 From what I can remember, Helen tried to do a bunch of videos at the end of 2022. Then she stopped completely. I thought she might have gotten burned out, but later I learned that she had given birth to her baby, then it all made sense. Of course caring for a baby is more important than making Tolkien content videos. I hope she can get back to making ng videos when her child gets older.🙏😁 There are not many women who have Tolkien TH-cam channels. That's why we need to support and cherish Lexi, even though she does fine on her own.
![Glory and Decay: The Downfall of Númenor [Part Two]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/fQuPWhZuYkw/mqdefault.jpg)
![Glory and Decay: The Downfall of Númenor [Part Two]](/img/tr.png)
![The Final Days: The Downfall of Númenor [Part Three]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7jUwLfDF5XM/mqdefault.jpg)
Hey all! This will be the first of at least 3 videos on Numenor's decline and downfall. Once I started researching I realized this was definitely not something to attempt in one go 😅
I will never complain about two extra videos on Numenor's decline and Downfall.😃🙏
Let’s go
absolutely can't wait!!
Parallel of the human condition, wanting to reach for more and having a cursed voice saying, "look what's being withheld from you" and so the human heart despises divine wisdom, even though that wisdom is there to keep humanity from destroying itself.
Once they are all done please also upload a video with all three! I mean this is less than half an hour long.
Babe, wake up! We're going to explore the hubris of Men!
I've always been really impressed by the internal debate over war that Tolkien gave to Tar-Meneldur in _Unfinished Tales._ The hideously squalid excuses of both those who are hawks out of cruelty and those who are doves out of cowardice make my blood run cold: "Will they say to Eru: 'At least your enemies were among them'? ... Will they say to Eru: 'At least I spilled no blood'?" Very few people seem prepared to reckon with a moral dilemma actually _being_ a dilemma, but Tolkien could see it, and could articulate it enough for a reader to see it too.
I also like Meneldur's willingness, as king, to accept responsibility for things outside his control. *He's* not about to personally endorse plunder and violence - but by preparing for war he's inviting the probability of someone, somewhere committing an atrocity they otherwise wouldn't have.
He has an equally good excuse for taking the 'wait and see' approach. There's no *active* threat; Gil-galad can't even identify what/who this new "darkness" is supposed to be, and since he's the one asking for help, surely the burden of proof is on him. But Meneldur rejects that as well; however defensible his inaction in the present might seem, it could put the lives of his allies and subjects at avoidable risk in the future.
I have reservations about some of his parenting strategies, but in terms of moral fiber, kings don't get much better. 9.5/10 would swear fealty to.
The more people fear death, the more corrupt they become. Tolkien understood that.
Mark Twain said, "I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."
That seems fine. The far green country might get boring after a hundred quadrillion years
Oh dear, then what does that say about me? The older I get the more sympathetic I become towards the Numenoreans in that period just after the first war against Sauron.....you know, around the time the Valar sent the emissaries to discuss why death is the Gift of Men, and not a punishment.
@TheMarcHicks It certainly is a gift not to be forever bound to the circles of the world but to have an eternal home in the Timeless Halls.
@@sulljoh1 That was only a resting place for Frodo until he went to the Timeless Halls.
That's apparently a big part of evil in Star Wars lore as well. I watched a bunch of videos summarizing Star Wars novels and other non-movie sources and the Emperor, supposedly the thing behind all of his evil, is an incredibly overpowering fear of death. It became a curse for him, trapping him in his cursed life, and even when his body was killed, he persisted as a massively powerful, but always suffering evil spirit.
“...both wealth and concord decline as possessions become pursued and honored. And virtue perishes with them as well.”
― Plato, Timaeus and Critias
Clearly seen in the Citizen's United ruling here in the United States.
There are two good Tolkien channels on TH-cam… Girl Next Gondor and Jess of the Shire. They dive deep and analyze and study the Legendarium (it’s almost like listening to a professor’s lecture), while every other channel either repeats the same info, delves into fan theories or relies on the movies. These two channels are a joy
It might be inappropriate to mention here, but Rainbow Dave of Tolkien Untangled is also a great source of Tolkien lore on TH-cam. He retells the stories vividly.
@@Phantasia_Workshop The Red Book (Steven Gibb nowadays) is a great channel too!
There are few escapes directly to a happy place like GirlNextGondor or NerdOfTheRings recounting Tolkien lore.
Agreed!
As for Aldarion and Erendis, the sea is always right.🤪
Oh boy part 1 such promise. Always love your work, the only Tolkien TH-cam channel I watch regularly. Thanks for everything you do.
The story of Aldarion is my favorite story from the Silmarillion. The wander lust, longing, fleeting reconciliation, "ways that things could have gone differently", connections to the future, long passage of time due to long life...and all taking place in the hazy memory bliss of young Numenor. Beautiful. Great video.
All the characters in The Mariner's Wife are at least somewhat sympathetic, and they're at least *trying* to do what they see as right, and yet they all fail so spectacularly. It's glorious 🥹
@@GirlNextGondor The only two things I am really sad that Tolkien never around to writing are more early Numenor stories and a fully updated and completed Fall of Gondolin.
I don't understand people who say Aldarion and Erendis is their favorite story from the Silmarillion. Every time I read it, I get disgusted by Aldarion's behavior. In the end, the Sea was too tempting of a lover for him to devote any of his life to his wife, daughter, or country - as he was not a functioning King for many years.
_Aldarion and Erendis: The Mariner's Wife_ is from _Unfinished Tales_ and not the _Akallabêth_ section of the published _Silmarillion_ .
@@tominiowa2513
Good point about Unfinished Tales. 👍
I've always appreciated this part of the lore! Such a great tale.
This is the first video on the Lord of the Rings I have seen in a long time to teach me something I didn’t already know about it. Well done!
We just got back from a two week driving tour in England and Scotland..we paid a visit to Wolvercote cemetery, me as a returning pilgrim, my wife supporting her nerdy husband. We shared a kiss there of course. Illuminating as ever. Thanks GNG.
I'm in the wrong headspace for anything pertinent I write to come out right. Love your content and the mind behind it. ❤
Yes, don't forget the Voice. Lexi's voice is almost as alluring as Saruman's. 😱
@@Enerdhilyou're not wrong lol
"Soon to be X forest." Fantastic wording!
Ahh Numenor perhaps the most obvious proof that the Valar are [bleep]ing clueless when it comes to the Children of Illuvatar. Just set the Edain down in sight of Valinor and tell them not to touch. Surely nothing can go wrong with this brilliant plan!
No wonder Eru kicked them out of the world and made it round. They mucked up the Elves and the Edain.
I guess they have the excuse of not having as much direct experience with Men, but the whole Flight of the Noldor episode should have clued them in....
It was all part of the Ainulindalë.🙄
Just as the Valar could not understand the Evil of Melkor, they could not understand mortal Men's desire to be immortal
Great point… it just clicked that this was punishment for Valinor too.
Woah, you're right... Did Eru toss Men away from the Valar, or did Eru toss the Valar away from Men? Mind blown.
I have heard about this channel and am glad to be finally seeing it. I love these analyses!
Also, you have to explain who the characters are in your beautiful artwork, including the persona of yourself (the brown-eyed blonde apparent elf). I recognize some of these figures - but not all! 😂
While positioning Númenor so close to the Undying Lands was clearly a mistake, I also think that their defeat of Sauron in the War of the Elves and Sauron proved in the long run to be a critical factor as well in the downfall of Númenor. Sauron was on the verge of winning that war and there was no one in Middle-Earth capable of stopping him. Then the Númenoreans showed up and crushed him. It's easy to see at that point how some of them would look at the Elves whom they had just saved and think why should Elves and not Men, who just defeated Sauron, be the ones who are immortal?
It kind of felt to me like all the queens regnant were poor rulers, which didn't have to be the case, John!
Yea, JON!
There is a saving grace, though. Where did the House of Valandil, the Lords of Andunie, come from? From the line of Silmarien, who was passed over as eldest daughter of the King, since this was before Numenor's laws of succession evolved into absolute primogeniture.
While the line of Tar-Meneldur would disgrace itself more and more, the line of Silmarien stayed Faithful and eventually redeemed the Dunedain. Which makes one wonder if allowing daughters to be heirs earlier on may have led to a much healthier Numenor.
They are a number of good TH-cam channels concerning Tolkien's works- but yours is the best! Thank you.
Aldarion and his situation is so interesting, and the effect it has on his father, wife, daughter, and grandchildren. He ends sexism (for selfish reasons) but seems to start racism (the blood of Elros) that would later lead to Gondor’s civil war. He’s right to face Sauron and ally with Elves, but that leads to domestic neglect and the cutting of more trees… and eventually colonies, several centuries later. But should he have ignored Sauron? There’s also the case of Silmarien… should she, who led to Elendil and Aragorn, have been the first Queen? But would she then be the ancestor of someone like Ar-Pharazon instead? It just seems like every choice is wrong. It reminds me of Finwe, Miriel, and Feanor. There’s just that taint of Morgoth. Because even if Sauron did submit to the Valar, would Aldarion and all future Numenor have refused the sea? Unlikely. The whole story seems like inspiration for the grays of Game of Thrones.
Yes, Silmariën should have been the first Ruling Queen of Numenor. Her father Tar-Elendil gave her the Ring of Barahir and a Mithril fillet as consolation prizes. It's a good thing she got the Ring because it must be worn by Aragorn later.
Silmariën settled in Andúnië and her line of Lords and Ladies ruled over the Faithful who were there until Ar-Pharazon forced all of the Faithful to settle in Romenna. The blood line of Silmariën was composed of righteous rulers, no Pharazons
@@Enerdhil but why didn’t he change the law for her? Or Elros write that law to begin with? Why do Elendil’s realms of Arnor and Gondor never have a ruling Queen?
@@ghostdreamer7272 Because Aldarion was doing a good thing (gender equality for the royals) for a crummy reason (personal issues with his wife and daughter), so he had no principled reason to do things for Silmarien and her descendants.
As for why Elros didn't go with absolute primogeniture, he was following the example of the Noldor. Fingolfin had a sister (Irime) who went with them to Beleriand, and a daughter (Aredhel) and niece (Galadriel). I can't work out whether Gil-galad being High King after Turgon meant that Galadriel was passed over, but at least Tolkien Gateway seems to think that the original laws were based on the Noldor's. (See the Tolkien Gateway article "Law of Succession in Numenor".)
@@ghostdreamer7272
That's a great question. I think since it is an election year we can blame the Patriarchy for keeping women out of positions of power. 🙄
Manwë: Verily hast thou turned from the righteous path, and opened thine ears and thy heart to the lies of the Enemy.
Tar-Atanamir: New number, who dis?
Lmao This is my cousin's old phone! Don't call again! Hahah
Ah yes, Manwe, the Elder Millennial of Arda, and that upstart Ar-Zûmer.
Perfect channel to wind-down
We aim for chill vibes here at GNG HQ 😊
Thanks, lexi .
Cheers Mr Nolan
Yes, Aldarion the golden playboy is indeed the point of origin for many of Numènor's later troubles. Had I been Tar-Meneldur I would've sat down my wayward son and pushed him against the wall: "Either you stay here and father a couple of boys or I'm gonna find myself another heir you stubborn ass!"
Erendis was also quite stubborn but I still think he treated her shabbily. Aldarion could afford to spend years without counting while she couldn't.
Aldarion's the arse there, though Erendis' treatment of Ancalime is child-abuse.
My theory is that Aldarion's first and only love was Uinen. You can say it was the Ocean, but me thinks 'twas the Siren of the Sea who stole his heart.
@@danielstride198 Yup, largely due to her mistreatment at the hands of Aldarion. You could almost say she invented generational trauma, were it not for Feanor's lock on that particular patent.
Putting any people into a position where they gain power by inheritance instead of merit ends the same.
@@rikk319
How about gaining power through skin color or sexual identity rather than merit?🙄
The fall of Numenor has always vaguely bothered me. Ar-Pharazôn and his guys fall from Grace and really ramp up the Numenorian domination and subjugation of Middle Earth. Which, mind you, had been pretty awful forever. Yet, if he never sails West and challenges the Valar, Numenor never sinks and they pillage Middle Earth and pretty much create Sauron's Utopia while the Valar (aside from Ulmo) do jack shit. Not surprising from the Valar. I just feel like Sauron and Ar-Pharazôn were 100% right about attempting to rattle some Valinorian cages; but they were right for 100% the wrong reasons.
It's hard to imagine how evil they became for Eru Illuvatar to wipe them out. Think Marquis de Sade on speed.
Perfect work. i like your page and content
@@halilburakmemis3732
Great! Please subscribe, hit the 👍🏻 and Ring the 🔔 for notification.🙏😁
To me, it seems like the Valar learned far too little from the aftermath of their decision to bring the Elves to Valinor. So partially repeated their error with the Edain.
What was wrong about the Valar's decision to bring Elves to Valinor? That was Eru's Will.
@@Enerdhil It wasn't Eru's will. The decision to bring the elves to Valinor was hotly debated amongst the Valar, and both Ulmo and Mandos were especially opposed to the plan. Bringing the elves to Valinor indirectly resulted in the rebellion of the Noldor and the death of the Two Trees.
@@TheMarcHicks I love how much of the Silmarillion is a story of "mistakes into miracles". It was a mistake to bring the Elves to Aman, but that resulted in a lot of beauty, and the Elves became forever tied to it, even a lot of the Dark Elves. It was a mistake for the Noldor to fly to Beleriand, but that resulted in a lot of heroism and songs.
The mistakes aren't looked back upon with only regret, they become forever ingrained in the shape of the world, its foundational myths, the stars in the sky.
@@TheMarcHicks I love how much of the Silmarillion is a story of "mistakes into miracles". It was a mistake to bring the Elves to Aman, but that resulted in a lot of beauty, and the Elves became forever tied to it, even a lot of the Dark Elves. It was a mistake for the Noldor to fly to Beleriand, but that resulted in a lot of heroism and songs.
The mistakes aren't looked back upon with only regret, they become forever ingrained in the shape of the world, its foundational myths, the stars in the sky.
@@coreyander286 true enough. Even Eru alluded to this during the Ainulindale, in response to Melkor's multiple attempts at discord.
new girlnextgondor video!! best tolkien youtuber by a longshot :D
Yes. Lexi and Steven Gibbs of The Red Book are the best.
@@Enerdhil I thought he had disappeared from TH-cam, but then found out he came back as "Steven Gibb" instead of "The Red Book" for a channel name.
@@tominiowa2513
Yes. By the luck of the algorithm, I got notified about one of his early Steven Gibbs videos. He did an epic video on Blind Guardian.
I think he is keeping the old channel name and just using his full name when he comments or replies.
Unmitigated brilliance. You enrich my reading of Tolkien, and my reflections so much!
Aldarion's requirement that heirs only marry into the Line of Elros reminds me of the politics leading to the Kin-strife in the Third Age. We're probably meant to be wary of that part of his law. On the other hand, if Gondor had followed Aldarion's law regarding female heirs, they would have chosen Arvedui over Earnil II, and maybe then the kingship wouldn't have ended with Earnil's son Earnur.
(Well, now I'm looking it up, it wasn't specifically Aldarion's law that Arvedui was basing his claim on, but the law/custom that came after Aldarion where the oldest child would be the heir even if she was a daughter with younger brothers.)
Bravo M'lady as we have found thee in our TH-cam ventures. We are also preparing vids on this subject as the Rings of Heresy Season 2 approaches. May the blessings of the Valar be with thee.❤🎉
Morgoth and Sauron were experts in human nature.
Turin found out the hard way that Morgoth was....
I dunno, I can't call them experts if they're unable to imagine what it's like to have pity, and that inability to imagine costed them a few times.
Great, in-depth video, Lexi. I can't wait to watch the other two!
Repeating myself
The best Tolkien analysis
It all went downhill when Silmariën was denied the throne.
I just got through these chapters in the Downfall of Nume or book, so you have some great timing!
There are people who say Eowyn is the first feminist in history only to delve deeper in lore and learn about Erendis...
Great job as usual!
Risk of involuntary celibac is all I heard...
Awesome
Wonderful video. Thanks for the great content ❤
Was the Downfall inevitable? If so, the Valar had a lot to answer for. Apparently, as Tolkien says in the Waldman Letter, "Reward on earth is more dangerous for men than punishment!". Although _danger_ is not inevitability. But it certainly appears inevitable in the context of the legendarium and Arda Marred, where decline seems the normal state of things, as long as one looks at a large enough time scale.
I was told by the Tolken Geek that you have a video of Osanwe. The telepathy of Elrond, Galadriel & Gandalf. I cannot find it.
I think she may have mentioned Ósanwë in her series about "magic" in the Legendarium.
I was told there would be chips... *and dip!*
"Occidental pining". Genius. 😁
Nice work thanks it's good to hear from you
Yay! Watching now! 🥰
… her son Anárion (no, not *that* Anárion) …
Love the mental penetration that sees the long-reaching strategic ramifications of Aldarion’s succession tactic. I think that’s what I appreciate the most about this channel: you look into details that I, for one, tend to gloss over in the first couple of readings of Tolkien.
It's all downhill from here ;_;7
😂👍🏻
And then it's sink or swim.
"So, we're getting a little antsy about mortality, are we?"
"No, it's fine, really, it's FINE!"
"Can't move among the hoi polloi of Endor without it going to your head, huh?"
"NO! It's fine, I tell you!"
"Wait, let me guess? You're getting a bit envious about the Eldar, aren't you!"
"SHUT UP! IT'S FINE DAMMIT!"
"Everything's fine...really...."
Thanks for covering the fall of Númenor, it’s a really cool topic and you gotta pull info from all over. Maybe Aldarion shouldn’t have married 😅… I never thought about how him changing the laws of succession and rules for marriage led to people beefing about lineages. His pops really pushed marriage to Erendis though… He loved her for sure but everyone knew he loved the sea more. Keep up the good work 💪
Your voice is familiar.
Did you do dragon Ball commentary during db super's anime run??
So Numenor was Tolkien's version of the Fall of Atlantis.
All the chapters about Aldarion in The Fall of Númenor are among my favorite stories in the legendarium. I think I've mentioned it in the comments of another video already, but there's something about how... humble and mundane, for lack of a better word, the characters' (mostly domestic) problems appear. The audio book brings these characters to life even further, in my opinion.
@@kaptenteo
Aldarion demonstrated how to behave if your marriage and family mean nothing to you. That butthead destroyed the lives of his wife and daughter, and picked up fans along the way.
@@Enerdhil Yeah, it's awful. I meant to say that in a world with so much fantasy and grandeur, this particular family's story has more to do with interpersonal problems more akin to what you more often see in the real world.
@@kaptenteo
I am always surprised to see many comments stating that Aldarion and Erendis is their favorite story in Unfinished Tales. This could explain why many young people are not getting married or why there are so many divorces.😞
@@Enerdhil Yeah, I understand. It's definitely not a story with characters anyone should look up to. It's well written, though, and felt closer to home than many other stories in the Legendarium. Like I said in the original post, the audio book really helped bring the characters to life, as well. It's definitely a tragedy, though. One of the most potent, I'd say.
I wouldn't be surprised that one reason why Tolkien grew depressed at The New Shadow is that, with Numenor, he had already charted one human society in its fall from grace - even if was a not quite so-quick "satiety with good". But the mythological truth already there and explored in what I suspect was a far more satisfying way - as story and legend (more than history) - than as some sort of contemporaneous story like LotR. For that matter with Lotho and the Shire he had already covered a contemporaneous account of that happening too, if in somewhat truncated fashion (though I recall your Shire is a bucolic dystopia thesis ;) ). Whereas the legend of Numenor afforded him opportunity to weave some wider themes and purposes.
But in both Numenor and the New Shadow, and for that matter with the Noldor and others in the First Age there is an inevitability to the decline, if not to the specifics. In the end, nothing of Arda Marred can be wholly good - but then also nothing from the Music can be wholly ill. After all, out of Numenor ultimately came Estel.
Noooo, not hecking nuance in my precious Tolkien discourse! Noooooooooooooooo
It wouldn't be a Lexi video without any heckling nuances. That's what we crave.🙏👍🏻
Good reminder that The Akalabeth is not a historic tale but a moral tale that tries to explain and justify Numenors downfall.
😄👍
Oh I'm going to love this series! Thank you for your awesome work again Lexi 💙
Not a bot
🤖 😆
I believe it is the Numenor chapter in the Akallabêth of the Simarillion that mentions that early in Numenor's history, elves from Aman travelled to Numenor and taught the Numenorians things.
"And thence at times the Firstborn would come sailing to Númenor in oarless boats, as white birds flying from the sunset."
As Númenor darkened this travel ended, fairly early in that descent as I read between the line . But that it occurred at all is remarkable. It also contrasts with what seems to be the lack of travel between Númenor and Middle Earth/Eriador in these early days.
Who would do this? That is rather easy, it would be the Teleri sea elves. Perhaps they take on passengers at times, but that is unlikely to include elves living in Valinor itself.
When would this happen? Potentially at any time except during the first age. The Valar closed Valinor and created a wall of mountains that presumably forced the sea elves to move away from the sea. The entire quest to get the Silmaril to Valinor loses its poignancy if you could just take a regular tour. But at any other time, such travel could happen.
Is this what Tolkien intended? Potentially this might be an idea Tolkien later abandoned. I have not read the works after Unfinished Tales, including any of his letters, but no-where else except in the tale of Numenor do I recall reading this.
What is the impact on the story? It doesn't impact the main characters. The Noldor exiles that choose to stay in Middle Earth obviously wouldn't use this to just visit. The character who might have used this is Cirdan the Shipwright and his followers. He takes on the task of remaining in Middle Earth, but he might have visited the Teleri town on the coast of Aman at some time.
Given that the sun sets in the east, I'd say that sentence is referring to elves from Lindon.
Edit: Clearly, I'm talking nonsense. Never mind me!
The Druedain also began their exodus from numenor under the reign of Aldarian
Hubris shmubris. The United States of Numenor, that shining city on a hill, light unto all lesser nations, will never fall. The Gods be damned! 👀
😬
The Men of the Mountains will greet us as liberators.
then pray for it to last, not for it's doom to come quicker
Nu! Me! Nor!! Nu! Me! Nor!!
❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤
Rings of Power had the audacity to skip ALL of this
The downfall of Númenor started with Tar-Aldarion, a mariner and shipwright, marrying a radical tree-hugger, then was cemented by him forcing his useless, bitter daughter onto the throne instead of any, ANY of the capable men of Elros' line in a position to marry into the throne and rule.
Your videos are wonderful. But the autogenerated closed captions are terrible. For example, every time you mentioned Ancalime, the caption would read anal, or anime. LOL I know it's a pain, but for us folks that really rely on CCs, if you could find a way that is convenient for you to make the captions actually say what they are supposed to, it would be a great help, as the autogenerated ones are sooooo horrible. TIA. Keep up the good work!
Tolkien's names are the bane of auto-generated CCs 😆 Thanks for the reminder, I will look into this!
@@GirlNextGondor
Good luck! Next you can teach A.I. how to cook.😁👍🏻
say, could there be more videos with The Clueless Fangirl?
@@Enerdhil what? She posted what where?
Helena Lahnstein has not posted a video since Mar 20, 2022 and has deleted all her social media channels.
@@acuerdox
Sorry, I did not realize you were asking about Helen on Lexi's channel.😅
From what I can remember, Helen tried to do a bunch of videos at the end of 2022. Then she stopped completely. I thought she might have gotten burned out, but later I learned that she had given birth to her baby, then it all made sense. Of course caring for a baby is more important than making Tolkien content videos. I hope she can get back to making ng videos when her child gets older.🙏😁
There are not many women who have Tolkien TH-cam channels. That's why we need to support and cherish Lexi, even though she does fine on her own.
Did the elves ever return?
Did the Elves ever return? What do you mean? From where to where? From Numenor to Tol Eressëa? From Middle Earth to the Undying Lands?
@Enerdhil did they go back where they came from like my parents keep yelling? 😂
⛵️⛵️⛵️🔥🔥🔥🔥🌊🌊🌊🌩🌩🌩⛈️⛈️⛈️🌀🌀
Nice summary.😁👍
... and that's how it happened!
Sheesh you really hate Eldarion. 😂
First ?
It would seem so 😅
Looks like you are first .😁👍