I don't really feel much of the diminished (octatonic) scale in the first few bars, though you've made a fairly plausible case for it. I know that Messiaen didn't use the be-bop scale but the notes of the first few bars do actually correspond with F# be-bop major: F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D natural (the added note), D# and E#.
The end of the bebop major scale is actually the top half of the octatonic scale, which itself is constructed by stacking alternating major and minor seconds. Messiaen's harmonic language was shaped heavily by a set of 7 scales that he presented in his book "The Technique of my Musical Language". He named the seven scales the "Modes of Limited Transposition", named so because the number of possible modes of the scale isn't equal to the number of notes in it. For example, the major scale has seven notes, each note having a resultant mode (the "Church Modes"), whereas the Whole Tone scale has 6 notes but only one mode - If you rotate the scale to start on the second note, the pattern is the same as starting on anywhere else in the scale, because it's just a stack of whole tones. The Whole Tone and Octatonic scales are the first and second of his Modes of Limited Transposition respectively. If you're a jazz musician I'd recommend checking out the other MoLT, particularly Modes 3 and 6; they're definitely on the weirder side but they can work really well for soloing in certain contexts. Unfortunately I don't think Messiaen was particularly influenced by jazz (at least not consciously, some of his works do have a hint of an Ellington vibe in my opinion) but it's really cool how so many harmonic ideas were discovered independently by different styles around the world!
@@conalfisher765 But surely not quite the top half. Be-bop major: C,D,E,F,G,G#,A,B,C. Octatonic tone/semitone: C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C. So that's: G,G#,A,B, and F#,G#,A,B.
@@nigelhaywood9753 There are two modes of the Octatonic Scale, the one you mentioned is the Whole/Half Octatonic scale. G# A B C D (the pattern being HWH) is found at the top of the Half/Whole Octatonic Scale. The two scales are modes of eachother, and are the only modes of the scale, hence why it's a Mode of Limited Transposition, and why jazz musicians will often say it's "symetrical". Really the pattern is just alternating tones and semitones, there isn't really a "beginning" to the scale per say, so there isn't really a "top half" either, I perhaps could have been clearer there with my wording! My meaning was that the Bebop Major scale contains a WHWH pattern which is inherently reminscent of the Octatonic Scale.
@@conalfisher765 Ok. So in that sense they do share four notes. But there are NO examples of semitone, semitone in the octatonic scale. In the be-bop major you get two in a row between V and VI.
@@nigelhaywood9753 I know and I agree, but I'm making the point that there is a pattern in the bebop scale that resembles a part of the octatonic scale. I'm not saying the scales are identical. Just that they have that one part in common, which is the reason why, as you've pointed out, the first few bars of this piece correspond with the F# bebop major scale. The semitone-semitone pattern you're mentioning isn't present in those first few bars, hence why I didn't mention it, and why this piece can't really be analysed as being in F# bebop major (there are some chromatic motions at times but they're nondiatonic and are mostly just planed chords, not bebop major by any means). It's like saying a piece that uses the pitches CDEGA is actually in C Lydian Dominant because the present notes are part of the key; those notes are just C Major Pentatonic, the characteristic notes of Lydian Dominant aren't present so it's not really correct to call it so. The beginning of this piece contains some notes that are in F# Bebop Major, but the piece overall uses a lot more of F# Octatonic modes, which similarly aligns with Messiaen's own analyses of his pieces.
I really dont agree with the form analysis here if im being honest. Saying that measures 13-16 is a reprise of the theme and not an extension of the B theme leading back to the A theme through a common-tone modulation is definitely a stretch. I think ABA'B'Coda is more appropriate. Besides the A theme from the first 4 measure doesnt really follow antecedent-consequent structure, as a D# in the melody over rootnote F# is definitely more resolved than a G# in the melody over rootnote B. D# is without tension, whereas G# has stronger pull back to F#. The piece even ends with D# in the melody and its also a common way to end a piece of jazz music for example.
@@gustavertboellecomposer Traditionally jazz, up until maybe the 70’s, could quite happily end on a major chord with added sixth, in this case, F#6. It’s clear that Messiaen treats it as a resolved home chord, as you said.
@nigelhaywood9753 interestingly, in his own book he cites Renaissance composers and Debussy as the historical basis for the added 6th chord, which is what leads him to treat the added 6th chord as a tensionless chord. There is a whole tiny chapter dedicated to it. That would have been in the late 30's/ early 40's, so it's interesting that he didn't himself make that connection
Really, you can say 'even shorter' instead of 'shorter-er'. I imagine you were just being quirky and having some fun, but the level of English in TH-cam is reaching frighteningly low levels! Please don't encourage them. Thank you for a very interesting analysis any way. I have always loved this piece.
Just found this gem of analysis. Very extensive and interesting presentation!!
thanks, this is one my favs of all the times.
Thanks for precioys analysis!
Thank you for this analysis 🤟🖤
Thank you!
I don't really feel much of the diminished (octatonic) scale in the first few bars, though you've made a fairly plausible case for it.
I know that Messiaen didn't use the be-bop scale but the notes of the first few bars do actually correspond with F# be-bop major: F#, G#, A#, B, C#, D natural (the added note), D# and E#.
The end of the bebop major scale is actually the top half of the octatonic scale, which itself is constructed by stacking alternating major and minor seconds. Messiaen's harmonic language was shaped heavily by a set of 7 scales that he presented in his book "The Technique of my Musical Language". He named the seven scales the "Modes of Limited Transposition", named so because the number of possible modes of the scale isn't equal to the number of notes in it. For example, the major scale has seven notes, each note having a resultant mode (the "Church Modes"), whereas the Whole Tone scale has 6 notes but only one mode - If you rotate the scale to start on the second note, the pattern is the same as starting on anywhere else in the scale, because it's just a stack of whole tones.
The Whole Tone and Octatonic scales are the first and second of his Modes of Limited Transposition respectively. If you're a jazz musician I'd recommend checking out the other MoLT, particularly Modes 3 and 6; they're definitely on the weirder side but they can work really well for soloing in certain contexts. Unfortunately I don't think Messiaen was particularly influenced by jazz (at least not consciously, some of his works do have a hint of an Ellington vibe in my opinion) but it's really cool how so many harmonic ideas were discovered independently by different styles around the world!
@@conalfisher765 But surely not quite the top half. Be-bop major: C,D,E,F,G,G#,A,B,C. Octatonic tone/semitone: C,D,Eb,F,F#,G#,A,B,C. So that's: G,G#,A,B, and F#,G#,A,B.
@@nigelhaywood9753 There are two modes of the Octatonic Scale, the one you mentioned is the Whole/Half Octatonic scale. G# A B C D (the pattern being HWH) is found at the top of the Half/Whole Octatonic Scale. The two scales are modes of eachother, and are the only modes of the scale, hence why it's a Mode of Limited Transposition, and why jazz musicians will often say it's "symetrical".
Really the pattern is just alternating tones and semitones, there isn't really a "beginning" to the scale per say, so there isn't really a "top half" either, I perhaps could have been clearer there with my wording! My meaning was that the Bebop Major scale contains a WHWH pattern which is inherently reminscent of the Octatonic Scale.
@@conalfisher765 Ok. So in that sense they do share four notes. But there are NO examples of semitone, semitone in the octatonic scale. In the be-bop major you get two in a row between V and VI.
@@nigelhaywood9753 I know and I agree, but I'm making the point that there is a pattern in the bebop scale that resembles a part of the octatonic scale. I'm not saying the scales are identical. Just that they have that one part in common, which is the reason why, as you've pointed out, the first few bars of this piece correspond with the F# bebop major scale.
The semitone-semitone pattern you're mentioning isn't present in those first few bars, hence why I didn't mention it, and why this piece can't really be analysed as being in F# bebop major (there are some chromatic motions at times but they're nondiatonic and are mostly just planed chords, not bebop major by any means). It's like saying a piece that uses the pitches CDEGA is actually in C Lydian Dominant because the present notes are part of the key; those notes are just C Major Pentatonic, the characteristic notes of Lydian Dominant aren't present so it's not really correct to call it so. The beginning of this piece contains some notes that are in F# Bebop Major, but the piece overall uses a lot more of F# Octatonic modes, which similarly aligns with Messiaen's own analyses of his pieces.
Sacrum
I really dont agree with the form analysis here if im being honest. Saying that measures 13-16 is a reprise of the theme and not an extension of the B theme leading back to the A theme through a common-tone modulation is definitely a stretch. I think ABA'B'Coda is more appropriate. Besides the A theme from the first 4 measure doesnt really follow antecedent-consequent structure, as a D# in the melody over rootnote F# is definitely more resolved than a G# in the melody over rootnote B. D# is without tension, whereas G# has stronger pull back to F#. The piece even ends with D# in the melody and its also a common way to end a piece of jazz music for example.
@@gustavertboellecomposer Traditionally jazz, up until maybe the 70’s, could quite happily end on a major chord with added sixth, in this case, F#6. It’s clear that Messiaen treats it as a resolved home chord, as you said.
@nigelhaywood9753 interestingly, in his own book he cites Renaissance composers and Debussy as the historical basis for the added 6th chord, which is what leads him to treat the added 6th chord as a tensionless chord. There is a whole tiny chapter dedicated to it. That would have been in the late 30's/ early 40's, so it's interesting that he didn't himself make that connection
Really, you can say 'even shorter' instead of 'shorter-er'. I imagine you were just being quirky and having some fun, but the level of English in TH-cam is reaching frighteningly low levels! Please don't encourage them. Thank you for a very interesting analysis any way. I have always loved this piece.