Acorn Waxed Foundation VS Premier Waxed Foundation for Honey Bees, Which is the best?
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 พ.ย. 2021
- Many thanks to those viewers who have contacted me with questions about Premier heavy waxed bee frame foundations. They are definitely new to me.
The primary questions were regarding the size of the cells and number of cells per side of each sheet.
That's pretty easy to cover, all you have to do is count the cells.
So, I purchased a fresh load of Acorn heavy waxed foundation, and Premier heavy waxed foundation for deep frames.
UPDATE/CORRECTION: (12/5/2021) The Acorn Foundation shown in this video is actually "single coat" it is not the Heavy Waxed/double coating as stated in the video.
RESULT:
I find them to both be well covered in wax and both have a fresh beeswax scent that is sure to entice your honey bees to work them.
There is variation in cell numbers on each foundation as they line up slightly variable with some cells not being complete or fully usable for the bees. So only complete rows of cells were counted for comparision.
Do I think the numbers of cells on each foundation will result in meaningful differences in the amount of brood, or quantity of honey? No, I think the differences will be slight and more dependent upon the bee stock you're using.
Foundation with heavy wax coating on it will perform very well in all situations. I use deep foundation in my nucleus hives as they are two-story (10 frame) nucleus setups so the honey will possibly be harvested from the deep frames.
The Long Langstroth Hives are all composed of Deep Frames and heavy waxed foundations will be welcome there. The Acorn foundation is perforated at the corners so you can snap them off for bee passage, however, the Premier foundation can very easily be snipped off as needed, being much thinner.
I find them to be equal and am confident in recommending either foundation.
When I've made comparisons with Mann-lake, Pierco, and some other off-brand waxed foundations, Acorn was the foundation that the bees worked first. To find out which is preferred by the bees, I will be placing Acorn and Premier in the same deep boxes, checkerboarded in order to make comparisons. However, based on my observations here, I think they will both be top performers.
Thanks for the review Fred! Acorn and Nick have produced a great products for many years. Premier is a fine foundation as well. I had not compared the 2 but recommend both as Acorn and Premier are producers that focus on delivering quality foundations. I have counted rite cell vs premier and the numbers are quite a bit different. Thanks for the education!
HI Kamon! Yes, Acorn has been my preferred foundation for years. He did a great job of improving when he departed from Pierco. I agree these two are going to perform very much the same. But of course, I'll put them side by side in the same colonies this spring just to see if there are any acceptance variations. BUT, I don't expect any differences and therefore it really just comes down to price. I just learned about them a couple of weeks ago and that's because people were emailing about this new "thin-wall" foundation. Turns out that they are just another company making nicely waxed plastic foundation. Acorn/Premier are both good choices in my opinion, both American-made as well.
With the onset of winter these are the reviews we need to plan for next spring ! Well done Fred....
What a treat to find this little gem before going to bed. Thanks Fred for this info.
You're very welcome, thanks for watching :)
That last shot of brood frame was beautiful!
Ah yes, a little flash-forward to spring :)
Thanks, Fred. I'm gradually changing out my yellow foundation--mostly Mann Lake but other brands too--to Acorn. My 72-yr-old eyes need the black background to more easily spot eggs.
I have always been a fan of those contrasting backgrounds in brood areas for that very reason. Mann Lake frames proved to be brittle, and the bees didn't take to them very well overall.
Thank you for this excellent and very concise comparison. I was personally suspicious regarding the 30% more cell claim. Great information that I completely agree with. Keep up the good work Frederick!
Glad it was helpful!
If they are claiming extra cells, and they get them on the areas that are covered by the frame- seems bit misleading. Thank you for the comparison Fred. Sometimes the best way to get to the bottom of something is to do the digging.
You also have to consider who the claim is against. I have Hoover foundation and plan to count cells when I get home next week. Acorn may have more than most as well, putting it with Premier. I’ll report back what I find.
This is why I couldn't just provide an opinion without having them in hand. They say they have more cells than "the competition" or "competitors", they didn't actually name a company or specific product.
@@CoffeeNo0b0514 Let us know what you learn. It's easy to verify. Thanks for commenting.
Do you think that since one is thinner that when they build it out, you may end up with more capped honey as the cell will be a bit deeper? Thoughts? Nice day yesterday, near 50. The girls were out flying
Thank you for the review. I have been literally going back and forth on which of the two to order. Good to know they are pretty much the same. Thanks
Definitely, I'd just go with whoever is giving you the best deal :)
Good Review thank you
Hi Frederick. I just ran across this and thank you for for a good and educational review. We've used plenty of both, the bees seem happy with either, but our automated uncapping equipment likes the thicker Acorn better.
Hi Bob! It's great to read your comment. Your experience is extremely valuable as you've had thousands of cycles pass through your honey processing system. Some did say early on that the premiere foundation was a little too flexible but I didn't have any direct experience. Your word is golden around here, thank you for sharing. Thank you for your time, as always :)
Nice comparison, needs the patience of a saint to sit and count cells always sends my eyes 👀 crazy lol
Well, if we need to know, we need to know :)
The extra heavy (triple coat) acorn is amazing. Bees draw it out as good as wax foundation. Double coat is probably good enough but if you are running
I agree, it's great stuff and has been for a while.
Fred, great video, reviews and comparing of the two best foundations that I’ve found. I like either one although I will normally buy the least expensive if I’m making an order from a supplier that handles both. I learned the hard way not to buy the bargain priced foundations because you get what you pay for. I’m happy to say that Acorn and Premier are the only ones that I buy now. I’m looking forward to meeting you in January.
Hi Don, I agree, they both look great, and there are definitely other frame/foundation makers that I wouldn't buy from. But these both look great to me.
Well that's something new, I'm going to have to look to see if I can get them in Ireland. Thanks Fred.
Great review Fred. 👏
Thanks Dan! Great to see your comment!
I use Premier foundation, the Bees built it out very fast. The cell count is interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Yes, as with any of the heavy waxed foundations, I think they will be well used by the bees. The plastic frames I've tested in the past definitely were light on the beeswax coating. I'd say that is a top consideration for bee acceptance. Premier seems to have a better system for getting better wax coverage with less wax than Acorn where the wax is very thick in some areas which = waste from the manufacturing angle.
Acorn! Of course, I may be a bit biased. Nick and I grew up together. I designed his graphics and built his website. So there's that.
I was very happy when Acorn started making foundation with the heavy wax coating. I had been using Pierco before that, and the improvements were conspicuous on every level. Still a huge fan.
Another superb video. Thank you!
You're very welcome, thanks for watching.
good one mr dunn!! i watched Jc's bees you are right look at hes vids with premere and see they didnt go to the edgesall the way. he said more cells onpremere but u cleaned tha tup for us! thanks!
Happy to help.
Thanks for all you efforts , i am not waxing frames any more . I coated a frame with Propolis and it was easy and made a nice even coat plus the bee started building comb in a week. I made tincture of Propolis by de-solving it in alcohol (pure grain) and sprayed it on with a normal sprayer.
That's an interesting approach for priming foundation, thanks for sharing! Sounds like that would be a great way to prepare frames particularly for swarm traps. Did you try your propolis primed foundation right next to heavy waxed foundation in the same brood box to see if one was worked sooner than the other?
@@FrederickDunn no it was to late in the year, I just put it I for a week.
th-cam.com/users/shortsjnKaWeJz_Vk?feature=share
This year I placed premier foundation and Acorn foundation in two new hives. Both hives had equal number of each foundation in the second deep..each in wooden frames.. I did not checker board the frames. I placed each foundation in a 5 frame grouping..but did switch the 2-5 frame grouping between the two deeps (box one was premier on the left side, acorn on the right side, 2 box was the opposite) this was to avoid the bees being influenced by the warmth of the east side of the boxes..both hives drew out the acorn foundation first, then the premier foundation.both foundations were drawn out well and seem to be used equally once drawn out. But it seems the bees worked the acorn over the premier if given the choice..at least in my case..thanks for all the work you’re doing
Thank you so much for sharing your personal experience and observations. Much apprecited.
Thank you Fred well done 👍🏽❤️❤️❤️❤️🇵🇹
I had a couple premier foundations blow out of the frames when extracting and haven’t had that with the rite cell.
Wow, that's unfortunate. People have asked about that thinner material and that's certainly something to consider.
We have a couple thousand of both Acorn and Premier and have never had either blow out in extraction using a radial extractor. We do prefer the Premier so much we switched from selling Acorn to only Premier.
@@HappBeeAcresBeeSupply most is them held up just fine. They were pretty thick with honey. I like the thinner sheets but just thought I’d mention it!
I like Pierco, but have never tried Acorn or Premiere. Have had great success with the triple waxed. Have a pallet of frames sitting in the barn now waiting ready for spring.
Hi Bruce, I stopped using Pierco many years ago, though I started out with them in 2007. They tended to warp through the middle, particularly the deep one-piece frames. The owner of Acorn worked for Pierco and stepped away and started his own company. The Acorn frames had superior material stability and were offered in three levels of wax coating. So, I gradually phased out my Pierco frames and landed on Acorn as a favorite. The bees will happily use any heavy waxed foundation.
@@FrederickDunn ok. Makes sense. I always use triple waxed if I can. Have really liked them over the years and Aaron has been great to me so I have remained loyal to them. Plus I get a much better price ordering by the pallet.
Good video!! I’m Acorn all the way. Premier is obviously as good from what I’ve heard and what you’ve revealed, but buying bulk Acorn directly from Acorn saves about 20 cents a sheet. So that’s the difference for me. In partnership with a fellow beekeeper we buy normally about 1000 to 1500, so 20 cents cheaper per sheet delivered directly from acorn is significant. Thinner will also warp easier. I’ll take more rigid, it’s not that much more difficult to insert.
Thank you for sharing, Mike. It definitely adds up when you're ordering in large quantities. Nothing wrong with remaining with what works. :)
Hi, Mr. Dunn. Thnx for another great video comparing competing products. Remembering one of your long-past videos, you had shown one plastic foundation that had perforated corners that could easily be broken off to create crawl gates for the bees to pass from one side to the other without having to walk around the whole frame. Neither of these appeared to have perforations that I could see, SOOO . . . some of us are wondering if you will cut off the corners, top and bottom for the bees? Inquiring minds want to know! Thanks for all your instructional videos. I still plan to start my beekeeping project next March.
Yes, the Acorn foundation has perforated corners, but I have to admit that I ignore that and just snip them with tin-snips anyway. So both of these could be easily snipped for passage and ventilation. :)
Great comparison Fred! Must have been fun counting the cells 🤩 You are AhhhMazing! What ever happened to the plastic heavy waxed frames that you received with cells/holes along the edge of the plastic rather than the straight grooves of your regular plastic frames? You had mentioned that you thought SHB's might have trouble hiding in the cells/holes like they do in the normal plastic grooves. I tried to find the video that showed when you received them to no avail.... I think they were from overseas.
Those are the Ceracell one-piece heavy waxed foundations and they worked very well. I can't provide any feedback regarding shb impact since I don't have any of those here. I'll update on that this Friday.
@@FrederickDunn They looked like they would work well. Thank you for the reply... I'll be looking forward to Friday's update! Happy Holidays Fred!
Premier and Acorn are both great foundations. I switched to Premier and won't go back. Why? Because the bees draw out Premier quickly and consistently, the foundation uses far less plastic which is better for the environment, but also Jeff Johnson spent over an hour on the phone with me. He's accessible. He cares about his product, his customers, his business. I'd recommend reaching out to him, there's some subtleties you missed and I think you'd enjoy the conversation as well!
If you're happy with Premier, then definitely stay with it.
Hello Fred. How do you feel about clipping the corners of the foundation to create pass-throughs for the bees? Thanks as always for a great channel.
Hi Keith, that's exactly what I do, particularly for my horizontal hive. The Acorn has perforated corners so you can "snap" them off, but I just cut them so that makes no difference for me. In the long lang, I snip all four corners and the bees will fill those corners if they don't want/need that opening.
Thanks for the review, Fred! Will be eager to see what your bees think come springtime.
A note on the cell count comparison: Out of respect for other plastic foundation manufacturers, we do not reveal brand names directly in our comparison claims. However, we will say that Acorn foundation has the closest cell count to Premier Foundation between the top manufacturers (fully usable cells only).
In short, cell and cell wall size is complex issue. Our team at Premier began with a simple mission: To build a foundation according to the exact specs found in nature. Bees know best. :)
Here's a video from Founder Jeff on the story of Premier Foundation: th-cam.com/video/dhAPivYYzKU/w-d-xo.html
Appreciate the work you do for beekeepers, Fred. Keep it up!
Thanks for chiming in! We'll see how they do in the apiary in spring, and I'm looking forward to speaking with you guys at the conference!
Do you currently sell your foundation with the wooden frames to consumers through your website? I found the foundation, but not the frame-purchasing option. Feel free to post that link here. Thanks so much.
Great review (and video of the foundations!!!) I have only the one colony that I moved from a Hoover hive into an Apimaye Hive (Hoover hive's wood frames) back in Late August. If I can get them through my first winter with bees, I'm planning to slowly replace the wood frame with the plastic frames that came with the Apimaye. I've also ordered both Premier and Acorn extra heavy waxed foundation to see which fits beat into the plastic Apimaye frames.
One Question...….Here in east TN the Temperature is forecast to be 70ish on Friday around 3pm, and I will be treating my colony with OAV.....What would be the best time to treat? There's no nectar or pollen available for the foragers, so I'm assuming most will remains in the hive, and the overnight low will be around 40 (that's up from low 30's the past 5 days) leading into Friday. Thanks in advance!!
Hi Mike, since your target for the OAV treatment will be the nurse bees, fat-bodied winter bees, and brood frames, you can really take your pick as to what time of day to do the treatment. At 70 degrees, they will all be moving freely through the hive for good vapor exposure.
Premier is a hot spray and Acorn is rolled on.
Thanks for that added information, Premier seems to have worked out how to economize their materials, which is very good business. Very different surface appearances.
Like and greetings from St. Petersburg!
Kick Putin to the curb.
Fred, it was great seeing you at the Hive Life conference. Did you do you as said already a "put them side by side in the same colonies this spring"
Maybe you did and possible I missed it?
They are in... we'll share how they did as summer progresses. But I think there won't be dramatic differences. With deep frames, the Premier foundation is definitely far more flexible.
Really interesting. Thanks. Frederick, what is the difference between cell wax and cap wax? I never knew there was a difference. Thanks again. Happy Holiday to you my friend.
Hi Brad, Cell construction wax lasts for years and absorbs/concentrates lots of in hive chemicals, including pesticides and other industrial chemicals used in agriculture. Cap wax is fresh with each cycle of brood, or stored honey, so it's generally the purest wax in the hive.
@@FrederickDunn Oh thats makes sense. Yet I was thinking it was a different kind of wax all together--but it all comes from the bottom part of their abdomen correct?
I do not fully understand you wrote it with sarcasm or naivety, but this shield is now covered with you.
I have no idea what this comment means?
@@FrederickDunn (ESZ Mookie Take Ukraine back. It’s yours anyway)
Looks like Trolls work and try to pour poisons into our souls. Now it became clear, since I have already received a similar message. Thanks for the answer. Thus, it is clear from where a stench wind blows. Good luck in affairs, your well-being bees!
Thanks for the comparison. Ive been looking into both since both will be at The Hive life Conference in Tennessee. Look forward to seeing you there. What don't you like about Mann Lake foundation out of curiosity? Not enough wax?
Oh, that's great! Acorn AND Premier will be at Hive Life? I cannot wait to interview them for my channel :) If they grant permission that is. The Mann Lake foundation or one piece frames were more brittle and the bees took to them last, often producing parallel comb rather than attaching it to the foundation as they should. Mann Lake was also composed of a harder plastic that was prone to damage or chipping. So they are no longer on my test radar.
@@FrederickDunn Thanks for the feedback
Spring of 2021, I place a Acorn, Premier and empty frame with fishing line in six hives. All six used the Premier frames first. Receive no special treatment from Permier.
Thanks for sharing, I'll be doing my own observations in spring. Your results are definitely interesting. If they perform better than Acorn, I'll happily share that information.
Shipping cost sure can make a difference. Do you think that the increased flexing of the Premier is a positive or negative trait?
Hi Russell, yes, shipping is always a consideration, but buying more would reduce the price-per-piece in theory. Regarding the more flexible aspect, I think it really saves production costs for Premiers as they would be using less material to make the frames. I've not had any problems inserting any plastic foundation into wooden frames, but they do definitely bend-in much easier. I would anticipate that both would hold up to extraction systems equally.
Did you see any difference in the thickness of the cell walls as they were embossed in the plastic?
HI Walter, I was very interested in the Cell Wall thickness claim, and that was one of the features I was most excited about figuring out. BUT, I didn't have to get into cell wall claims since the reason for the "thinner cell walls" advertisement was to validate how the frames have "more cells per frame". Since they don't actually have more cells per frame/foundation, then I consider the thinner cell wall claim to be not worth investigating. However, as they go into service in the spring of 2022, I will certainly go the extra yard and see if the bees do actually produce thinner beeswax cell walls on the Premier foundation. I could find no testing or information regarding our ability to get bees to produce thinner bees wax in cell production based on the foundation guides. But my mind remains open on the topic. Had they actually had more cells per foundation, while maintaining cell size (which was the original claim), then we'd be getting into that deeper.
not sure,but heard bulk purchase on acorn may be substantial savings
Hi Mark, definitely, any bulk buy from Acorn (direct) or Premier "should" result in a lower per-piece price as well as a break on shipping.
Hi Fred. David from Brisbane Australia.
I was lucky to buy 7 second hand flow frames here last week. Would like to give them a good clean before using them. Your best idea for doing this please.
David.
Hi David, I would highly recommend that you go to the source at honeyflow.com and look into their forum for the latest information regarding cleaning the flow frames. For me, steam to remove the wax and propolis, put the frames in the open position, soak in a 10% bleach solution, dry and reinstall in the super. I use a Wagner steamer for the dissolving of the wax and propolis. The bleach soak gets into those hard to reach areas and kills surface bacteria.
Hi Fred,
Thank you for the video. Do you have an opinion or preference on using a wooden frame/Acorn foundation versus an Acorn all plastic frame/foundation?
Most recently, I've shifted to the wooden frames with acorn heavy waxed foundation. This makes it easier to clip the corners of the foundation if you elect to do that.
@@FrederickDunn That makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
Do either have any 4.9 cell size? Do you think it matters (4.9 v. 5.2)? Only starting my second year but when I bought my woodenware the local craftsman thought 4.9 was better for mite control?
Hi John, I can tell you this, the small cell claims regarding varroa destructor mite control have proven to be unfounded through scientific experimentation. Varroa mites are not negatively impacted by cell size and reproduce just the same. These are worker size cells. Both will serve you well.
Hi, are you doing the comparison in the yard this year?
thanks!
Both foundations are out there and there is virtually no difference in how the bees are using either foundation. I've had some beekeepers tell me that the Premier foundation can "blow-out" during centrifugal extraction, but I've not tested that myself. I think Premier works just fine.
Should one drill a few holes in the plastic so that the bees can have some cross passages between frames ?
Acorn gives perforated corners you can snap off.
I just snip off the top corners with sheet-metal snips. No need to drill them. As David also mentions here, Acorn has perforations so you can snap them off easily.
We experimented with Acorn a few years ago and drilled a 3/4" hole in deep brood sheets, @ 2/3 to one side in the middle. Almost every frame in every hive, they filled the holes in with cells.
i want to try making my own wax foundation w silicone mold,or a roller mill,and use wired frames,embedded
Lots of people certainly do that. Those rollers that shape your foundation can be expensive, but will never wear out.
@@FrederickDunn one video shows a sheet made iff a board dunked in cool water,to release the wax sheet then he placed in silicone mold,and used a wringer,to press the indentations into the sheet,looked pretty easy,...yeah i scored on my antique A I.ROOT foundation roller mill,...i see the ebay russian models,500.00 on up,ill try to share the video
@@sonofthunder. I would not have the time for that. Keep us posted on what you do and how you do it Mark :)
@@FrederickDunn i figured it looks easy enough,same as when you embed better comb with 12v,i thought the clothes wringer was genius, rolling wax removes some brittleness ,which is facinating on its own, even cutting into starter strips, btw i found a silicone mold on amazon 31 bucks or so,even a dough rolling pin may get same result
@@FrederickDunn th-cam.com/video/T7VxZVSLm4E/w-d-xo.html
You can buy premier foundation in frames as well they will also stamp your company name on the top frame. The bees draw out the premier foundation very well
Thanks Nate, when I placed my order, I searched all over their website and found no wooden frame options in stock for purchase. Maybe if you call them directly and place a custom order it's an option? But all I found were the foundations alone and the wax options. Thanks for sharing. Yes, I think the bees will work them just fine.
If you go through a Premier dealer, we can buy frames with Premier installed, but it's not listed on their website. As they increase manufacturing capabilities in the next year or two, they will most likely list it on the website.
Gotta guy in Ohio I trade queen cells for heavy wax acorn foundation .. he gets it off Amish bee supply guy for 1.10 .. great stuff .. he has deals on everything from syrup frames boxes .
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12/1/2021 !
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