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Biblical (or not) exceptions to the "don't separate” “don’t divorce" rules.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 เม.ย. 2022
- Allow me to say three things to those who would want to push back against my views here.
1) This is a somewhat rushed summary of my teaching on the topic which can be found here with great detail. These videos represent a long, careful case for each point I have made. • Divorce and Remarriage...
2) If you disagree then please consider responding not only with your own arguments but with a fair handling of my arguments. Very often I see responses which simply ignore all I've said, and the evidence, and Scripture which I have used to establish my case.
3) Let's remember what it means to be part of the body of Christ. We will one day be worshipping God, in glory, with full joy and fellowship together.
Juli Slattery's content and podcast can be found here - www.authentici...
My website BibleThinker.org
A good short answer to people who want a short Bible answer is that the Bible is NOT a magic 8-ball. Life is messy and God is gracious.
One of my favorite memories of my earthly father was a time when my mom was attacking his character with a “what are you gonna say to that” attitude. My dad just responded, “I choose to love you, babe”. I am so blessed to have such a good earthly dad as an example of loving self-sacrificially! Thank you, God, for Your blessings!
That is one Amazing Dad. I bet he loves you a lot too. It goes hand in hand.
Wow! What a blessing! I am learning to love my wife like that, but it is difficult. We are currently divorced but God has told me we will be reconciled and restored, hallelujah! I just have to grow with Him while He takes me and her each on the journeys we need to surrender to Him finally.
wtf so your mom is abusing your dad and he’s taking it but you think it’s amazing tf
Sounds like your father was a doormat for mistreatment & he taught his children, by example, that it's okay for a wife to treat her husband poorly if he hides behind his faith & calls it "loving self sacrafice" I think maybe he was confused about what sacrafice actually means in the context of marriage. The bible is very clear, wives are supposed to respect their husbands. Was your mother respecting your father when she attacked his character in front of their children?
As a woman who is in a wonderful Christian marriage ( 27 years) I want to just give a shout out to all the men who have been in an abusive marriage. It's not talked about enough as I understand there are a lot more women who are subject to it because we are more vulnerable. I really feel for those men who are abused, not just verbally but physically also. I feel their voices are often silenced by a very women focused, world we are now in. There's nowhere near enough support for them in general. I just want to give a shout out to them. May God help you in your time of need, be strengthened by the Holy Spirit. May His wisdom guide you & lead you in making tough decisions & more importantly the right ones. God bless you. 🙏
Thank you for this. It is so hard to look back on some of the things my wife has done and to actually admit that they were abusive. The same for me to her. We are sinners married to sinners. I choose to continue to love her, but it coninues to be so painful. I will not give up. We both need healing. Some of her recent abuse stems from the fact that i was emotionally neglectful to her as well. Yet, my heart has always yearned for her to open up to me in our marriage from an early point. There was so much of her that was closed off. Granted, she was closed off for fear of judgment. Now it all comes to a head and it cannot be hidden anymore. I just pray that God can make beauty from the ashes. I have to fully surrender now. Better late than never. Waiting on someone else to determine your life is so hard. All i can do is be there and pray.
Amen
Thats great to hear, we dont even know it that we were abused as we "shouldnt be emotional and weak".
It doesn’t happen to women more men make up 50% of domestic violence victims. The issue is men rarely report and are not taken seriously enough when it happen still can’t divorce over it.
@@trevon_thedragon4034 yeah that’s why I wouldn’t ever marry Christian woman
My story, which may be helpful to someone else: When I was 22 and searching for the truth about who God is, I married a Muslim. When I surrendered to Jesus, he divorced me, specifically stating that it was because I became a Christian. My AOG church at the time told me I could never remarry, or be in leadership in any capacity, due to my divorced status. Made no sense to me, I literally told my husband that I could not reject Jesus and go to hell, and he left me for that very reason. When I was 31, I was backslidden and married a professing believer. 25 years later, he turned on the gas one night, and woke me up to tell me he had done that, and that he was leaving the house. He never physically abused me before that night, but I endured mental and emotional abuse for years. I stayed as my walk with God became more real, serious, and deep, out of thinking I was obligated to stay. Long story short, he was arrested, and today, 6 years later, I divorced him a few years ago, and he is drinking himself to death, and demonized more than ever, we have no contact. I have studied the remarriage issue intensely, and I have chosen to leave it in God's hands. At 59, I have learned a lot the past few years about the narcissist spirit, my parents and my ex have this, I didn't know how much this had affected me all my life. My relationship with God is growing deeper by the day, and if He brings a man into my life, I'll be blessed; if He doesn't, I'm blessed. I have gained faith and confidence that I have never known before, and I'm grateful for my deliverance and my freedom. I left out a lot of details, but didn't want to write a novel, lol.
God bless you for your testimony! It is helpful for me. I’m in my 50s, too. Divorced 2 years. Narcissistic mother and ex-husband. He claimed to be a believer, but, is behaving in fleshly and satanic ways. Your testimony is what I needed to read. Thank you!
Bless you for sharing this Nancy. The scripture tells us that if a Christian is married to an unbeliever & they choose to leave you, then let them go -- you are free. *"For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the brother, since otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. But if the unbeliever leaves, let him leave. The brother or the sister is not bound in such cases. But God has called us to peace."* - *1 Corinthians 7:14-15*. You have nothing to be guilty about.
We should always be willing to suffer for Jesus sake.
@@AM-qv9yf What are you saying? I should have let my ex husband kill me?
people should leave an abuser I don't care what ANYONE says. No one deserves to be abused physically, mentally, or spiritually by someone.
I was someone who struggled with porn personally for a long time. I went 1 1/2 years then failed a bit after. I was being too naive with what I was watching and listening to and let my guard down. Be encouraged brothers Jesus Christ has overcome it all. Don't be ignorant to what leads you to such things and lean into the Father. Love u all and God bless.
I went threw this as well, feel like diligently guarding every kind of media you consume goes a long way. Any secular music, Netflix, etc. programs lust into your subconscious among other terrible things and make it an uphill battle. When I'm watching or listening to something now I ask myself if the Father would approve of it, treat watching murder scenes as being equal to committing murder, stuff like that makes it much easier to quit.
"We as humans are gonna have a hard time selflessly loving and holding together with another broken human for all of life."
This quote is incredible and I will be making an art piece out of it and hanging it on my wall. A beautiful reminder of the commitment of marriage and how it isn't meant to be effortless!
- But with Jesus we will!
Amen.
I hope u’ll share the art u make of this🙂
i happened to read this comment at the exact same time as he said it, and it was so satisfying
@@brianevans4 oh my gosh yes that is my favorite thing when scrolling thru comments
This has blessed me greatly as I am going thru some of the actual abuse mentioned in the video. I think the stigma is that women are the ones most often abused when I think many men just suffer in silence because of shame or lack of support. I see in modern church's that feminism has crept in and men seem to be held accountable for things that their spouse is responsible for. Bless you and love your teachings.
As a man who also received physical abuse on top of the emotional/verbal, I completely agree with you. The statistics are actually 50/50 (men don't report because of the stigma).
Women also emotionally/psychologically abuse more often than physically abuse. It's very sad.
I've received physical abuse a few times, nothing too severe but that is because she is not that strong. She has thrown things, broken things, etc. She is not too kind to the kids. She has been emotionally abusive, financially abusive, and emotionally cheated on me. I don't even go to church anymore because she makes it a huge event and it becomes extremely stressful. Back in 2017, when I was requesting a divorce she had threatened to make up stories about things I have not ever done. I do not want to mention those things here. Just today she was trying to watch a show that is not appropriate to have in the house while the kids were running in and out (has strong nudity), and she kept trying to pause it and justify watching it. I told her that it is not appropriate and she shouldn't watch it right now (or ever really), and she said, "Don't you judge me! I can do what I want." Then she shut the TV off, got upset, yelled at me, and stormed up the stairs.
I believe that this statement is underated and will continue to go unheard for another 20 to 50 years. According to statics and studies done. Women are far more likely to abuse their husbands than husbands abuse their wives (physical abuse, emotional abuse, mental abuse, but not sexual abuse). (I know the statisticcs based on police reports show that women make up 80%+ of the victims of domestic abuse. I call this the "pitbull rule". Pitbulls, by nature are NOT more agressive and likely to attack innocent people, they simply just cause more damage when they do. So the data is heavily misrepresented towards pit bulls being aggressive. Chihuhuas are far more aggressive... When a woman physically abuses a man, (talk to a veteran stree cop, this happens a lot), she causes less damage. He can take it, right? On top of that, the man is significantly less likely to report it, because that's his wife, or because of the stigma, or shame, or lack of real help and support.
Additionally I will add that if you look at the modern church, feminism hasn't just crept into it. The Church is actually infected with it. Even Mike here, as much as I love listening and learning from him, he cannot help himself. Women are treated as victims, and not as perpetrators of the law, not as willful sinners. Even Mike has to shame men when giving a teaching on women for women. Mark Driscoll and Vodie are about the only 2 I can think of that don't. Everyon else does. I even think McCarthur does it.
Ask your self why the church is so concerned with comforting women in their roles but calling mem out while pointing out the man's responsibility. Ask yourself why the only examples used in this discussion were from the perspective of women as the victim... ask your self why no pastor addresses the sins of wives directly without also placing a large piece of the blame and responsibility onto the husband. Ask your self why the church wants to give the husband all the responsibility but then give wife all of the authority. Ask yourself why the church is so quick to comfort and protect the wife when she comes to the church with a complaint against her husband, but when the husband comes to the church with a complaint against his wife he get's told to man up, humble your self, love your wife, serve her. Ask your self why it's okay for wives to point out and call out their husband's sins, but not okay for the husband to point out and call out the wife's sin.... most of all, ask your self why the church has spent the last 50+ years teaching husbands that headship and leadership are not positions of authority but rather positions of servitude. (Since when was the husbands role in marriage willful indentured servitude; while the wife's role in marriage is actual authoritative? Somehow, we have flipped the roles) Feminism has grossly infected the church to the point where "love your wife as Christ loved the church" almost quite literally equates to "happy wife happy life." If your wife isn't happy with you, you aren't loving her like Christ did!
(Jesus didn't serve the church by catering to her, by serving her the way the modern culture defines serving. He loved her by telling her the truth, by doing the right thing, by correcting her, by showing her the right way to live, by teaching her, by guiding her, by pouring into her spirit, but also by calling her out, and by setting her straight, and by telling her that she has sinned and she should repent to get right with God. Jesus did not serve the church by making her happy and by catering to her emotional highs and lows.
Than you for comment, please no not be afraid to share your experience with others. Feminism has destroyed more marriages then we can know over the last 50+ years.
@@travisfreethy5693 the reason the church treats men and women differently is because men and women are.....DIFFERENT. Most women do not receive military correction well. Of course feminism has affected our culture and the church negatively and some if what you say is attributed to that but women are not motivated by authority, they are motivated by love. That doesn't mean women shouldn't be corrected or that women's sins shouldn't be talked about. Of course they should be. It's just how should you do it if you want to be effective?
Wise words, spoken with real grace and understanding - thanks, Mike!
0:00 Intro
1:00 Mike's Ministry Online & Offline
4:01 Setting the Scene
8:56 Two Extremes
12:14 Overarching Biblical Principles
14:57 Adultery & Divorce
16:55 Pornography & Divorce
19:59 Grounds for Divorce & Actual Divorce
22:07 A Non-Christian Partner
28:47 A Real-Life Story
29:54 Emotional Abuse
35:40 Abuse & Counselling
37:30 The Bible on Abuse & Divorce
42:06 The Need for Proper Discernment
44:02 Divorce & Freedom to Remarry
he understands NOTHING about the subject, and is consequently a sex cult leader
Thank You, for saving my time.
'the first few years are the hardest years...' very honest answer.
I have divorced twice one when I was very young and it was a violent worldly relationship that went into him haveing a girl friend and me looking at other men
The second I was mentally and physically abused for 17 years belonging to a big church and counseling.
I was afraid to divorce him until he told me he would kill me .
I live with Bruses daily we tried counseling but there was nothing wrong with him he hit me in the counseling office I was the crazy one
22 Years and a restraint order from the day I said I do I was free as 400 miles a way that was a lifetime ago I pray for him daily that he would have peace.
5 years ago I remarried to the most amazing man and I so loved and blessed
You said there was nothing wrong with him? Is that a typo?
@@jdj2022 it seems like she is saying that the counselor found nothing pathological enough to warrant a diagnosis.
@@jonathanritchey2440 That is how I understood her.
I too tried going to counseling and the woman counselor would only listen to her side of the story. She never even asked about how I felt in the relationship. I was the one who had the faults, and I was the one who would have to change. Marriage counseling is pure "bunkum" and not worth considering, even if you do it in the context of your church. If you want to stay, then stay ... if you can handle the continued suffering. If not ... good luck out there.
@@jonathanritchey2440 if you hit your spouse there is something wrong with you. Regardless if you are diagnosed with anything.
I so appreciate how you acknowledge how very complicated life is. So many Christian preachers and teachers don't acknowledge that, they simplify things and leave people in difficult quandaries with no answers!!!
As an abused woman who divorced I had to repent for my part of the abuse. I lied for him because I believed he was telling me the truth so I had to repent of the lying and apologize to the people I lied to or about. I had to repent of putting my children through the whole crazy abuse. I had to protect my children throughout the divorce and, frankly, I failed at that for too long. Yes I was messed up in the head but that doesn’t take away the responsibility to my children. It’s a process that I am still going through. It takes time and commitment to the truth and willingness to turn from sin but it’s worthwhile.
My wife and I have been separated for 5 years now. The idea of remarriage pops into my head alot. I don't plan to but I also am open to God putting someone in my life.
At times I am lonely and my human desires are strong but I know that God is good and just like with my marriage, doing something for my own desires leads to heartache. So I refrain from feeding my own desire and stick as close to the narrow road as I can from moment to moment.
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@brianchristopher8843
My Heart Goes Out to You!
The Good Lord 🙏 is
Our Loving Comforter💔 , Peace, Hope, Faith, & Greatest Love♥️...
Many Blessings 😇 & Much love ♥️to You
& family!🙋
So true doing anything to follow our own will and desire leads to heartache. Trust God for everything and remain open to him.
Pay close attention to what she said at the beginning about listening to this person or that person with different views on the topic and getting confused. What becomes simple is when you sit down with just you, the book and the Holy Spirit to guide you in all wisdom and truth. Be obedient to the Spirit's leading about what is most honoring to God. Then with all lowliness and gentleness, with long-suffering, bear with one another in love.
I was told by a pastor that I had to take my husband back even if he beat me to death because I needed to be faithful to my marriage vows, I can't accept that. I was utterly broken. Now I feel like 2nd class Christian because of the D word. I know im forgiven and I've forgiven myself and others but years later I still get judged.
I feel ya!
@Amanda WR
You are faithful to your marriage by how you behave in it.
You are intimate only with your husband, you share whatever you have with him, you strive to respect who he is, and you work together with him as a helpmate/second in command in your marriage...
If yOU are doing these things, then you aRe being faithful to your marriage.
If a husband is being abusive, threatening, dismissive .. etc of his wife ..and not being loving, appreciative, putting his wife's needs first ....then hE is being unfaithful to the marriage.
It takes two to make marriage work,
It only takes one to make it not.
It doesn't sound like you were participating in unfaithfulness,
It sounds like your husband was not upholding hiS vows.
🙏
I understand. As someone who was abused for some years and finally had definite grounds for divorce when she moved in with her boyfriend (I forgave the first instance of adultery, silly me), I still get side-eyes from some people as if I have a big red D stamped on my head. I committed the unpardonable sin of being abused and cheated on.
As the man, everything that happens in my home is made my fault. Forget that this is a grown woman. I can't control her. If she isn't going to play ball with me or God, there's nothing I can do but pray for God to work on her heart and take a way out if she hands me one, and I did.
One could be "a second class Christian" in some ways. If the actual reason was in someway not really permissible, then, from a Christian service standpoint, like being a spiritual marriage counselor, may not be appropriate. It doesn't meant such a one is not accepted in Christ, but it definitely can effect the higher calling that one could have had in their lives.
Who cares what others think? The only thing that is important is what GOD thinks! You said God has forgiven you and that should be the end of the story. So I would just tell those judging others, "God has forgiven me and that's all that is important."
I remember when I was suffering abuse from my husband that whenever I opened my mouth to talk about it I felt like it didn’t even sound that bad to me but I knew I was suffering tremendously. At the time I didn’t have the vocabulary to describe things like “gaslighting”. It wasn’t until he got physically violent that some took notice but still I had church elders telling me to just be submissive. This and your 3 hour video (yes I watched the whole thing) are both very healing for me and I thank you for your hard work on this topic. There are things I’ve come to realize as I mature. One thing you touched on when you talked about biblical instructions to husbands and wives. It seems some men are rather obsessed with God’s instructions to wives instead of focusing on their leadership being Christ like. As a wife it’s my responsibility to do the following. I know you feel very responsible as a teacher and don’t want to give anyone the permission to go beyond what the scriptures teach and I appreciate that very much and I think that it is the responsibility of the individual Christian to be honest in applying Bible principles. Another thing I think about a great deal is that we are called to be free people. We are under the law of love now. No longer under the Mosaic law. Love is a principle that should govern our decisions. A real love of God will prevent us from looking for a loophole to illegitimately divorce.
Oops, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. The 10 commandments are the Law of Love. Christ said so. Matt 22:37-40. Also James refers to the 10 commandments as the "perfect law of liberty" , (James) not meaning that it sets you free, but that keeping it demonstrates that we really are free in Christ to stop sinning, which is what law breaking is, sin (1 john 3:4). Finally, the end times reveal who are the true children of God - Rev 12:17, 14:12.
I didn’t mean to imply that we are free to break God’s commands but that we are to be guided by principled love as mature people. Laws are not bendable but principles can guide you through complex problems in a way that rigid rules cannot.
It's ironic though that the Mosaic Law allowed for divorce and remarriage, and people who don't ever allow that are putting bondage on others the Law never did. I feel for you, as I went through abuse, neglect and infidelity, and had to divorce due to his unrepentance. God has been so good to me. He provided me a way out biblically and a way to survive with my kids on my own. No longer living with my spirit being torn apart by abandonment, I'm able to feel God's presence and sweetness more than ever. I will pray for you. 🙏🏽💕
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Well said. I’d add the phrase ‘for God has called us to peace’ to your excellently chosen references too.
My wife was accused twice of abusing our 3 year old in sixteen days. The second accusation came from our Pediatrician who referred my wife to a Psychiatrist and a Licensed Social Worker. The Psychiatrist put my wife on Psychotropic drugs and eventually asked her to go to a mental hospital.
My wife refused to go.
Eventually I was asked to hire a lawyer to get her involuntary committed to a mental hospital.
So why is every example you use about Domestic violence where the man is the violent one. James Dobson and Focus on the Family also use 100% of their examples of violent men and they ignore the Violent mothers.
Once my wife got to that mental hospital she began to accuse me of abuse The only people to believe my wife were church people.
When our insurance ran out my wife moved in with her parents and to make a long story short, that was the beginning of the end of our marriage. The children remained with me.
The children were interviewed by two court appointed socal Workers. My children denied their mother's claim that I was abusive, and they told these socal workers that they wanted to live with me, their Dad.
According to FBI stats 90% of the time when a man abuses a child it is the Mom's Boyfriend or the Step Dad. Not the biological father of the child.
So why are churches so biased against men in the area of Domestic violence?
Because churches don't know. They aren't trained in DV. Many pastors give terrible advice about violence, to both men and women. The statistic for men used to be they were only 4% of the victims (the rest women). IDK if that's still true.
My friend, this experience has given you the red pill. The courts are heavily on the women side and causes a lot on men (including myself) from speaking out or pursuing the law. Though we are finally getting a divorce (she is the one who left and had a constant affair before she even moved out), I am still constantly worried that she shall go into her manic state and do something to take the kids away from me (we are 50/50 right now).
As for churches, most of them, from my perspective, are just going based on emotions and not logic. Women can very easily manipulate others into believing whatever they say. It takes time and repeated offenses to get people to stop believing whatever the woman says. It is also probably due to just plain ignorance or a new circumstance they never faced before (see how many churches know about the foster care system and ye shall see that, unless they have people in the church who has gone through it, they would have no idea how to help).
Because the churches, like the rest of our institutions, have been feminized and corrupted beyond belief. I don't condone abuse from men or women towards each other or their children, but feminism (A tool of the Marxists) has sunk it's claws into everything in order to destroy the family unit.
I won't be like the many redpillers who say marriage is bad and a scam and that there are no good women left (As a Christian, I don't condone those beliefs), but there is an unfortunate reality to the situation. It is highly complex and will take a masculine re-Christianization of the culture and country and for the good leaders we put in place to fight with us against these things.
I am so sorry for your troubles.
Good question. Very unfair to men.
@@Ironica82 No. Churches don't do squat about any abuse, no matter if it's coming from the male or female of the marriage. They'll take the side of whoever is better at manipulation, and that's it. In my experience, church folk don't care about the truth or sorting out who needs help. It's "be a man/lead your family" if you are an abused man, and it's "why upset him, just be submissive" if you are an abused woman.
38:01 This is the question that gets at the heart of the matter. This video is very timely in light of another well known pastor’s view. Whenever the Bible is used to shelter the abuser, put the vulnerable in danger, and shame the vulnerable for trying to protect themselves or their children we should re-examine our understanding of what we think the Bible is saying. I am thankful that pastor Mike has the platform to combat the dangerous teachings of some.
My view of John MacArthur has been affected by this incident. You state it well, we cannot use the Biblical text to justify or defend the abuser, especially when they've been convicted in a court of law.
28If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29he shall pay her father fifty shekels c of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
Deuteronomy 22
@@paulallen7962 praise the Lord that we no longer live under the Old Covenant Law!
@@dylanmilks We aren't "under" it for the purposes of salvation, but it still describes the foundation of moral law that we should aspire to now that we have been saved from sin and transferred into the kingdom of His beloved son. The OT law is the foundation of all marital and sexual morality, and the NT writers understood that and worked within that framework.
The "Word" accoring to Jesus was the Holy Spirit, not the Bible. INsted of advocating following laws in the Bible, he turned it over to the Holy Spirit as our Teacher. " The Sabbath was made for man, not man made for (to fit) the Sabbath." How do we know what to do for the Sabbath? Ask the Holy Spirit. It's the same for marriage.
“A woman marries a man thinking she can change him and a man marries a woman hoping she will never change and both ultimately end up being disappointed.” (Paraphrased from the novel “An Imperfect Lover” by R. Gore-Browne).
Divorced and betrayed fellow here. Divorce forced me to put my faith in God and come to a greater understanding of Grace. I wouldn’t have it any other way 😀
I was married for thirty years and did not realize I was abused, as there was not any physical violence whatsoever. However, I was put down and criticized constantly, no matter how much I tried to measure up. The final straw was his adultery. A couple of years later I wanted to capture that which I’d never experienced - a real, loving relationship. Unfortunately, I jumped from the fat to the fire and divorced the second one, too. At the age of 71 I became close to a longtime family friend. He surprised me by telling me he loved me and proposing that we spend the rest of our lives together. I realized that I loved him dearly - in a way that I had never felt before. I was full of admiration for him. He was an interesting men, a deep thinker, honorable, Godly, highly intelligent. 60+ years of time and observation had proven this. However, I did not know the nature of his two previous divorces, so I left it in God’s hands. If marriage would have jeopardized our souls, it would be prevented. Unfortunately, this man was ill with Parkinson’s and had to go into assisted living in a distant town near his children, who wanted to care for him and be with him - which is also a good thing. I would have loved the opportunity to have made his last days happy, but it was just not to be. Hopefully we will be friends someday in Heaven.
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Beautifal story. Well expressed and justified.
And he said to them, “Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her
-Mark 10:11
To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband (but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife.
-1 Corinthians 7:10-11
“Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries a woman divorced from her husband commits adultery.”
-Luke 16:18
@@ngce Matthew 19:9
I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
This is so confusing and controversial in so many ways. Many of us, including myself, interpret this scripture as meaning that if your spouse commits adultery, you are free to remarry. On the other hand, I have seen people interpret this scripture to such an extreme as to say that if your spouse obsesses with any activity whether it is golf, TV, gaming, etc., that is a form of adultery and one is free to divorce and remarry. I would not go so far as to believe that.
While there are “nuances” to the situations leading to divorce it’s also wise to consider the primary motivations for divorce in the United States. And the main reasons for divorce is the lack of satisfaction, by women, in the marriage. Most divorces are initiated by women and most of the reasons lie in dissatisfaction. This is the “bulk” of reasons behind divorce (not abuse). The exceptions fall in the very small percentage and there is a difference between the person who initiates the divorce and the other person who disagrees with what the divorcing spouse decides to do. As a married man who is going through a divorce, initiated by a wife who I caught cheating who then decided to leave the marriage to be with this other man, I can tell you I’ve learned my lesson on the legalities of state contractual marriage-it’s a questionable proposition at best and highly dangerous, for men, at worst.
Today, "any and every reason" for divorce is primarily practiced by women, showing that they, too, have hard hearts.
I have watched this series so much when I became a Christian to confirm the validity of my marriage as well as guidance .... and today my husband asked me for a divorce 😢
Praying for you
My husband divorced me.
He had no grounds except that I was annoying.
He was addicted to pornography and suffered severe depression.
He had suicidal thoughts and occasional attempts.
I do not accept that we are divorced and find the term "ex husband" difficult.
I feel judged by the church.
I am 78 now.
You need to understand that you did you’re part and God see that. That’s all that matters pray for him.
You are not in sin. He is. You did everything you were suppose to as a wife and God sees that. Your husband is the only one at fault. Pray for him. Hopefully, he will come to God and seek forgiveness.
The irony of this is that recently in Nigeria a Nigerian Gospel artist died on Thursday after spending 5 days in a coma. Her husband beat her into a coma. I have been having this conversation all week. There is a disconnect with what we view as love vs what the Bible views as love.
A man who beats his wife needs to repent.
A woman in my opinion, should not feel the need to risk her life. I'd tell my sister to take a step back. Spend some time at your parent's or something. Keep praying and see what you are doing wrong.
Agreed. I also think that the church remains largely unaware of how much abuse occurs within its congregation. It is heartbreaking.
O, my Lord! What you just said is exactly what happens in my life! My stuff disappears or gets destroyed! And then some of it comes back in years! I thought I am alone! Thank you very much!!! God is always involved in lives of those who love Him!
Mike, you no doubt have a teaching gift and it shows how you it gives you pleasure to go deep in the word. It comes across that you are using your ‘talent’ at 100%. I find you as a very genuine and humble person. Love your teaching and digging into complex issues. And how you present the facts and information. Thank you and God bless you.
My husband put his hands on my once, name-calling was normal, porn addiction, several instances of where he refused to look after the children. I feel that my divorce was unbiblical. I know God was with me, and opening doors while navigating my divorce. The whole time, I would pray to God, that I didn't want this. My ex-husband refused counselling, ultimately, it was his unrepentance from everything I've listed. In fact, he defended and lied about when he put his hands on me to his family. I was done. I refused to live the rest of my entire life with that behaviour.
They always lie about the abuse
Your divorce was not unbiblical, friend. I had to divorce over similar things too and a hardened, unrepentant heart after years of praying and standing and trying. God is for you. May he continue to heal you and redeem your life. ❤️
This was so helpful to me. I prayed on this topic this morning and I've got the clarity and answer I needed. Thank you.
Mike, I just wanna say even though I have been to seminary and every now and then I go audit courses, I find your work and resources invaluable and really helpful
Really insightful video!
Just one point that I think really matters: the focus on women as the victim and insistence that it is “usually the man” who is abusing physically and or mentally is fairly inaccurate.
Abuse (physical and mental) occurs at almost identical rates when studied closely - it’s just that men are less likely to file official reports.
This is important because if a man being abused watches this, he may be likely to feel like a loser, like the exception to the manly rule, or like he’s alone. None of that is right.
That’s good to know, thanks :)
Facts! And then when you factor in parental alienation and divorce rape, it gets lopsided towards men real quick. There is a reason the suicide rate for men is over 800% that of women
Gosh, I'd be interested to see it if you had a link demonstrating this. With great respect to you, although I'm open to being wrong, I'm afraid I'm finding that difficult to believe.
My understanding is that abuse (particularly physical) towards men is substantially less common than towards women.
Or maybe you mean male abuse towards men .. 🤔
@@elizabethryan2217 As a man that was abused in my previous marriage, there are several things that I feel might skew statistics. My ex-wife threatened to lie to the police if I called them and get me arrested. Nobody would believe that a 5'1" woman could beat up on a 5'10" man. Those hits still hurt and weapons still did damage, aside from the emotional abuse. She used the fact that my values would not allow me to leave her to do whatever she wanted with no consequences. There are less resources for men and more pressure to "be strong" and take it. The law is more on women's side.
Also, you're trying to tell me that men are just more abusive than women?
@@greyspot00 hi 🙂
I'm really sorry to hear of your experience. There's absolutely no doubt that men get abused by women, physically and mentally, just as women get abused by men physically and mentally. And I can totally believe your experience. I have come across abusive men and abusive women in different circumstances, and manipulation is a really revolting and awful thing to experience and behold.
No: i wouldn't say men are more abusive than women. But my understanding is that women are abused more frequently by men than men are by women..
Like I said: it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, or that it isn't as damaging. But it is, as far as I know: less frequent.
I really hope that part of your life is behind you now; you feel safer, and you have good people around you. God bless, Kyle, and all the very best to you. 🙏
This is such a tough issue, mainly because divorce and remarriage is so prevalent in the Western culture Christian community, and lets face it, we're NEVER dealing with good Christian conduct by at least one side in the marriage. Quite honestly, if people lived their faith this issue would be n/a.
Hundred percent. A Christian marriage never should end in divorce.
But people are sinners. That’s the problem. You can’t always control what another person does.
I do agree if two people are true believers chasing God then they should never come close to even considering divorce.
@@jdj2022 they never will unless one of them is sinning.
@@jordandthornburg I agree. That’s why I said people are sinners and you can’t control what someone else does.
And yes there would have to be continuous unrepentant serious sin going on in the marriage for divorce to ever happen.
@@jdj2022 exactly. Yes that’s my point though I’ll say Christian’s are saints not sinners so that should be our habit and identity.
Thank you for this conversation, Mike, and for being careful with peoples' lives and hearts. And especially thanks for your love and respect of the Bible as God's Word.
I have the impression that a lot of comments are from people who are disappointed or frustrated with the limits in the discussion in this video.
I highly recommend that you listen to Mike Winger' s complete videos on the subject. He seems to be a bit frustrated too having to give short answers.
A new believer friend at work juuuuust asked me about this issue yesterday… awful thankful for Mike Winger’s videos. Inspired me to start my own video series on encouraging shorts this past week. ;)
Well done soldier Mike! You are anointed and gifted. I can see it with my eyes and hear it with my ears.
Already impressed by this video and I just started watching… this is some good stuff I always come ready to learn thanks for sharing sir
I have been with my wife for 24 years. at one point in the marriage she made me very angry and I divorced her. we never left each other and never dated anyone else. a few years later we remarried and have been together ever since .
If you're new to Mike Winger's stuff, I'd highly recommend you listen to more. He's a great, thoughtful teacher and very humble in his presentations.
@@elizabethryan2217 I’ve been watching him for quite some time his teachings are very accurate and he teaches in such a humbling yet fun way my dad is a preacher and his style of teaching is similar he’s a bit of a bookworm when it comes to the Bible just like my dad lol. I feel like mike would do great in youth ministry the young folks would love him my husband and I think he’s great to watch
grew up a damaged adult, as a kid who was brought up in a domestic violence household. Whoever shames those who divorced cuz of abuse should be punched in face themselves first, then they'll realize the pain of others. You don't know others grief except when you yourself go through it
Yes as a child you have scars from this upbringing that was on a consistent basis! When people are handed over to Satan and kicked out of fellowship with the local church has happened in Corinthians the man repented in second Corinthians and was brought back into the fellowship. Discipline needs to happen right away so that the abuser stops becoming an abuser!
But you can’t tell people to immediately get divorced because every situation is different even though you probably have posttraumatic stress disorder from the abuser in your household!
It does depend on how often and if the person is repentant or willing to seek help!
Punch me and that only makes you an abuser. There’s a difference between desiring continued abuse and desiring a third way that’s better. A lot of us have stories that involve accusations that are false or stretched or missing context. Solution is to FULLY engage with the issue, not look for an out.
@@JayVal90 then you have the fight or flight syndrome of an abused person, so I’m here to help counsel that. Colossians 2 is our psychology chapter stating don’t lean on humanistic ways & counsel t you need to keep pouring into the Bible because Jesus has all authority and power over everything, and praise him and pray every day. 👀 >>The more you do these things, the better!
God can fix “crazy”, I’m not saying that you are but He can go that far, 2 corinthians 5:13!
If he made it, he can fix it!
I'm so sorry you grew up in a home where violence was normalized. That is heartbreaking, yet sadly common, even in the church. A woman should never be made to think that she must stay in an abusive relationship. I wish that the church was better trained to help identify and appropriately respond to abuse.
@@JayVal90 My goodness man, what would compel you to respond this way? The OP is talking about actual, real domestic abuse that she grew up with. She is saying a woman who is being physically assaulted by her husband should not be made to feel ashamed for fleeing. In this case, she is probably talking about her mom and the abuse she witnessed. She is NOT saying that counselors/pastors should not investigate each of these situations to make sure that the accusations are true or not.
3:50 Yes! I love my church family, but I get taught by teachers online. So grateful for the resources!
This past week in Nigeria, a top gospel artiste; Osinachi Nwachukwu, was killed by her husband. Online debates are raging about this exact same topic of divorce or separation in an abusive home, so perfect timing.
I love how you explain things. Thank you for taking time to help us understand better! Grateful for you!
Your first few minutes of intro was spot on for me. I am also very relived to hear you are in fellowship in your church. To me that lends you enormous credibility. Too many get too caught up with their special minitery to be rooted in a church. It usually ends to their detriment.
This teaching was so well thought-out.
It is scripturally balanced and I believe it is the full council of God's Word, not just a blanket statement, or cookie cutter response.
It is always the pastors or councilors who actually have dealt with abuse victims (physical, mental, emotional or spiritual) in person, who understand the heart of Jesus the best on this topic.
6:12 , 6:38, 8:06 - Ambiguity and complexity in real life
9:37 - The dangers
12:37 -
13:07 - what is marriage?
15:17 - Matthew 19 and adultery
15:41 - porneia
16:17 - why porneia?
17:27, 17:42 - is lust a cause for divorce?
18:27, 18:38, 19:08 - complexity of pornography
22:28, 23:17 - 1 Corinthians 7 and abandonment
24:55, 25:37 - bondage and freedom
Such a helpful session; so reasonable and exceedingly well-studied and considered, not only in abiding God’s law, but among the plethora of marital situations. Thank you!
Mike, I would like to ask you to prayerfully consider writing a book about this. It needs to be in every pastor's library. My heart breaks for every woman who has been harmed by well-meaning but uninformed pastors. I am one of them.
If its severe abuse, adultery, or pedophilia divorce. Do not stay married. How many trips to a hospital or your kids being severly beaten to the point of severe injury do you need ? Your responsibilty as a parent is to get your kids out of a toxic environment. Adultery once that psrson has slept with someone other than you you are not supposed to sleep with them. Pedophilia is a no brainer to get your kids away. It needs to be very serious.
I agree. I see three biblical reasons for divorce and one I add myself.
Death of the spouse, adultery and if you turn Christian and the other guy doesn't want anything to do with you. Those are the clearly biblical ones.
I would say heavy abuse is also reasonable cause for divorce. I say heavy as everyone does light abuse. Just read through a list of the different types of abuses once. Also if the other person just gives up on the marriage then you can't do much either.
When it comes to cheating I would say there are two cases. One is the person was weak for a moment and severely repents. The other one is the person was going repeatedly into situations where cheating was a risk and then it happens. Number one can be saved, number two can't. And you can differentiate between the two by the actions of the person cheating. If the spouse tells you on the evening it happened and cuts off all contact with the person he/she cheated with then that is savable. If you only find out after several occasions and he/she still tries to deny it then the only solution is to divorce (and look for a good future of the kids). If the situation is somewhere in the middle then chances are good it is number two.
Happy wife, happy life becomes an issue when wives don't care about how they treat their husbands.
My favourite guy on the internet. May the Lord keep blessing him in wisdom
My husband has been an alcoholic and stopped off an on for 22 years he's not a believer so it really destroyed our marriage he's lied to me so many times. I keep forgiving him and I love him because he's my husband we have 2 kids 22 and 15 so I've never considered divorce. I don't love him like a wife should tho because of the years of verbal abuse. I still stay. I pray for God to help him and pray to give me strength to keep forgiving. I feel like I'm in a constant state of punishment because I chose to marry a man unyoked to God. It's a really hard my daughter doesn't even love her own father because of all the times he said he'd stop drinking but failed over and over again He is a good provider for his family it's just really hard though.
❤️
Praying for you and your kids. As someone who used to walk that path he’s on 20 yrs ago it’s sad but he will never change until he realizes it’s a problem. It took me losing myself and doing something I’d have never done sober (affair) before I quit and changed. Changed jobs towns everything. Granted some people don’t feel guilty about doing that but I hated myself for what I’d become and done. Wish I’d found God when I left all that instead of taking 18 yrs later but in a great place finally for the first time in life and marriage is better than it ever was but that didn’t come until I came to Christ. Just avoiding bad behaviors and still being a heathen didn’t change much on the marriage side until Jesus became the center of our lives.
You do not have to consider divorce, but please consider finding a counselor familiar with marital abuse to help you navigate the situation. The book Is It Abuse is an excellent resource to help identify some of the things going on and make sense of what's happening (abuse is disorienting, and like Pastor Mike said, many abuse victims do not realize they are being abused).
Tyasm for this video. My thoughts on porn. Porn is NOT the same thing as seeing someone in the store and having a lustful thought. While it is wrong, it’s NOT the same thing as porn! Porn is literally engaging in sexual behavior. Whether it’s with a magazine or an actual person online. Married ppl who do this deprive their spouse of the sexual intimacy and love they need and deserve. This kind of thing destroys the marriage, even if they don’t divorce over it. It’s serious and imo is def something to divorce over if the offending spouse won’t stop. Just my thoughts. Blessings!
Yes you are doing God's work. Blessed are you.
Thank God for your annointing.
My ex-husband was a liar and a cheater. I prayed and fasted but he hardened his heart. The last straw was me having to get tested for sexually transmitted diseases. Thank God the tests came back negative. I was done and filed for a divorce. God and that divorce gave me peace.
Wise questions with wise answers. This has been enormously helpful on how to counsel my father when he comes to me in regard to my mother’s mistakes. God bless both of you as well as my parents, and especially my younger brother who has been affected much more than I have.
Please pray for my marriage, my wife left me over a year ago and I had definitely had a hardened heart towards the church at the time of our marriage due to her having an affair with her aunts husband, which was a youth pastor. I attempted to go to a freedom event with her during our reconciliation but unfortunately my heart was much to hard at the time. It continued to be a huge struggle for me. I have now recently gotten back into my church and am getting involved once again and I’m just praying that it’s not to late for our Father to restore our marriage. She is using abandonment and emotional abuse as the justification, but I’ve never left her, not once and the emotional disconnection was definitely due to the affair replaying in my mind. She is absolutely a believer and I pray that God would silence the enemy’s deceit inside of her and the mentors of the church around her. I have two beautiful daughters with her and have hope that the Lord will save our family.
You can't blame yourself for taking time to work thru your wife cheating on you. That's our of your control. If she's holding that over your head she's immature in her faith and this marriage may need more work than you realize.
I am sorry for what you are going through. Remember that no matter what happens, God's love is for you, even if you are not able to be accepted by your spouse.
Comfort yourself with these words: neither death, nor life, angels nor demons, things in heaven nor things on earth, things that are nor things to come, or any other thing in all of creation can separate us fron the love of God that is in Messiah Jesus.
She's a wicked woman, divorce her and move on. Wisdom is to divorce someone who cheats on you, while ignorance and desperation are the vices of those who still want to hold on to a wicked Jezebel that has proven to be unfaithful to you.
Sounds kinds like divorce for "abuse" is ok as long as it's the kind of abuse that Mike deems bad enough to warrant it. Problem is every pastor has their own abuse criteria. Not making enough money to provide a comfortable life could be considered abuse to some.
The term "emotional abuse" is used universally now, it could mean not agreeing with or not validating feelings. Do we need to double check with Mike if emotional abuse are valid grounds?
I love your teachings, they supplement my church sermons and draw my deeper in God's word and challenge my comprehension. I feel that my understanding is maturing as a result. Thankyou for your ministry and the diverse guests.
Great series Mike! So many are looking for answers on this!! Bless you neither, Matt
Juli has a voice I could listen to for long durations. She should do a siri and alexa option and be an audio bible reader.
I feel like if you can look at your spouse and think of the verse: "It is better to go to heaven without your hand, or your eye, than to go to hell with a whole body," maybe it's time to separate. Even if you feel that you can never remarry, but you still can't find peace in their presence, it might be time to leave. There's only so much psychological abuse one can take, and only so long one can cooperate in codependence. I know I have been abusive, partly in self-defense, and I am nowhere even close to being good, much less perfect. But I just can't stand the thought of being manipulated and belittled like this for the rest of my life. Twenty-seven years is enough. Of course there are good days, but you know that one little slip-up and the fighting will begin again. I must cooperate and submit, or pay the consequences. These arguments and attacks have become an occasion of sin for me.
I honestly wish I had a vocation to join a monastery somewhere, but I will happily accept becoming a hermit in the wilderness. I am in my sixties, out of shape, and would probably not last too long in the woods, but a couple years alone might be better than twenty more with her. I'm not looking for an excuse for a divorce. My parents divorced and I hated it as an ordeal, before and after. But if she wants to accuse me of abandonment, I offer no defense.
Just read the end of Malachi this morning. Chapter 3, vs 15-16. "...So do not break faith with the wife of your youth. I hate divorce...and I hate a man's covering himself [or could say 'his wife'] with VIOLENCE as with a garment."
Mike, regardless whether I agree with you in everything or not, you must be the nicest and the best spoken person on the Internet. God has blessed you with good looks, great voice, nice manner of speaking and pleasant, compassionate nature.
Oh, and your guest seems like a nice person too.
God bless you both.
It's very admirable for the husband who's wife left him and the kids.
That's literally my view.
I'm happily married but I would think I would do the same. Showing God's love to your spouse when they don't deserve it honestly its a hard act to follow through.
We alll deserve God's love because He created us ALL in his likeness.
@@robertdouglas8895 I actually see it as completely the opposite! None of us deserves God's love, but, in grace and mercy, he freely gives it.
@@elizabethryan2217 You see yourself as sinful because you judge/ condemn others and yourself. Jesus didn't do that. He forgave instead of condemn. When we condemn, we think we are only worthy of sacrifice, not blessings.
Matthew 12.7
If you had known what these words mean, “I desire mercy, not sacrifice,” you would not have condemned the innocent
@@robertdouglas8895 I'm sorry, you've completely lost me, I'm afraid! 😁🙂🤷♀️ Paul said we are not worthy of anything but anything we get we get from him because of grace.
Anyway: God bless, and have a nice day. Stay safe. 🙂
@@elizabethryan2217 Forgiveness also ends our fear. It allows us to realize we have no enemies, only friends
There was a lot of beta femsplaining in this video. Very one-sided. I work for a city government and recently was called on to redact body-worn camera footage for the police. It was a domestic violence call where a tiny woman attacked, scratched and cut her much larger husband. He was sitting there bleeding from his head and face. He would not lift a hand to her. The police rightfully assessed the situation and took her to jail. In addition, women often verbally berate their husbands or go silent (which is emotional or psychological abuse). Withholding sex as punishment or doling it out as a reward is also psychological/physical abuse. I'm not saying men never mistreat women. I'm just saying...have some balance in your presentation, your perspective.
Yes, I completely agree with you, Mike! My pastor/husband walked away from our 30 year marriage and ministry while I was in the middle of a health crisis. I begged him not to leave or to take our youngest son with him. He was already making plans behind my back to leave and move 750 miles away… However, he feigned this as a “family move” to our church congregation. It gets worse… He launched a smear campaign against me to my family, would gaslight me, and chummed up with my oldest sister and her family.
I wrestled with this situation for several years, and after giving him six years to make a move towards reconciliation, and seeing none, I finalized a divorce. I recognized that he was acting like an unbeliever. I needed closure and the ability to move forward with my life.
I went to my pastor about divorce because I wanted to be certain that I was doing what God wanted me to do. He started in Genesis and went through every single thing about a wife and then said that I wasn’t ever a wife because a wife isn’t for hurting, attempted murder, controlled, isolated, trash talked and treated like a child from whom obedience is demanded. He read from the NIV and when he said if an unbeliever wants to leave, let him go. Those words let him go haunted me. I stayed through a lot of abuse but once he started abusing the children I had to get out. I had to let him go.
Husbands have more of a responsibility to love their wives as Christ loved the church. But they often do the opposite and a wife can't submit to abuse because then it just gets worse and worse. It has to start with sacrificial love and not submission to everything no matter what. I divorced over abuse, abandonment, adultery. Hugs to you, sister 💕
@@em77775 hugs and blessings to you! I know your situation because abusers tend to use the same techniques. I pray that we both use our experiences to bring more people to Christ. It’s difficult for people like us to trust. I always tell the abused to not look at man and think they’ve seen God. God is merciful and forgiving, the opposite of abusers.
In some ways, I would say this video was even more helpful than the 3-hour study you did. I mean that in the sense that this is a great supplement to the other one; not a replacement for it
I have been praying and fasting about this. For decades it was porn and then when it wasn't just porn anymore and the overwhelming lies and tricks to hide everything even financially or unexplained absences is what broke me. That's abuse to me because it impacts me mentally in such a way I'm wreaked with fear when his lies torment me. I pray I can get some peace soon.
You're not alone, believe me. What you're feeling is very real, and it can totally break one's spirit and feel like bondage.
A relationship that is characterized by those types of behavior is absolutely abusive. The book Is It Abuse by Darby Strickland is a great starting point if you are trying to make sense of what is happening/has happened.
Great message Mike once again on the unbeliever. This is such a brain opener on how you break the relationship abuses, and the way you address the gaps that is in the bible and in the general conversation at church and world.
You go far and deep to understand the situation. Very discerning, thank you again.
I'm dissapointed by the frequency of them referring to women as the abusee. Women of today are not the same women of 20 or 30 years ago. I'm often astonished at the levels they will go to in exerting emotional and sexual abuses on their husband. They tend to use more of a starving approach and withdrawing approach when it comes to sexual abuse that leaves their husband desperately wanting but trying to remain faithful. Also, let's just be real that relational manipulation - especially verbal is a woman's strong suit. This type of abuse is much harder to quantify than a bruise on someone's body.
When I was doing DV counseling I found women displayed just as many characteristics as men from the Wheel of Violence. The main difference was that the physical side was more typically withholding, hiding, and stealing. A more avoidant and non-confrotnational side to physical abuse. I also found that women tended to hit men more but.....men were hurt less and emotionally impacted less than women would have been. I've seen women hit men over the head with vases and the man shrugs it off.....(not really healthy but I hope it gets the point across). Men tend to be more physically dominant and women tend to be more verbally dominant. It is no surprise that the main tool for their abuse will be their dominant characteristics. It will still carry the same premise of power, control, confusion, and isolation but in a different way.
I also found many women were less impacted by verbal abuse unless it was also accompanied by some sort of physical intimidation. Just like men often shrug off their wife punching them unless it is coupled with a verbal assault that hits all their weak points.
Anyway, it's more personal for me because of some of the stuff I went through and I am pretty sensitive to the continued rhetoric of male abuse being the primary topic of conversation while female abuse gets a quick gloss over.
I agree with you. If abuse at home was actually dominated by men then that would mean men are the more sinful gender. And I think sin is equally spread among genders, social class, ethnicity... The only difference is the type of sin each does. If women would be less sinful then I would expect a bible verse saying that women are less sinful. But I don't see that.
At 36:30 Mike said, that he mainly works with men who are the abusers. So that's where his bias is from. He should just state it more clearly and not as a passing mark.
I disagree. Mental/emotional abuse is harder to prove. You can’t deem anything you dislike as abuse. Also, when it comes to “sexual withdrawal” how can you deem withdrawing as abuse? Do you expect the unhappy woman to continue with such a physical act? Would it be emotional abuse to compel/guilt her into sleeping with him?
Verbal abuse can be proven though, and both men and women do it. Those who use physical violence are also verbally abusive.
@@justonetime6179 for one Paul is not on your side. Spouses should only stop having sex for a determined period of time.
Then there is the argument that a monogamous marriage says "you are never allowed to have sex with anyone but me. Also masturbation is gross and shouldn't be done. But I don't allow you to have sex with me indefinitely."
If withdrawal is not abuse then is forcing your spouse to withdraw of enough food abuse? Okay fair point. Food is neccessary for survival. Friends and contact to family aren't. Can I isolate my spouse from their social connection? Is that still too moluch of a comparison? How about if I force them to withdraw from their hobbies, interests access to finances or freetime? Havng sex should at least rank to that level, right?
@@justonetime6179 Sexual withdrawal is an "abuse" (i.e. a sin) according to God.
1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband. 3 The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 5 Do not deprive one another, except perhaps by agreement for a limited time, that you may devote yourselves to prayer; but then come together again, so that Satan may not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Should a man who is unhappy have to keep going to work and providing money for his wife? If not, society will label that as "abuse".
Christians should mostly eliminate the word "abuse" from their vocabulary. We should talk about "sin". Because Christ gave the church a tool to deal with "sin". First of all his blood; second of all the discipline model of Matthew 18:15-17: “If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. 16 But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
When we talk about "abuse", we modern Christians think that's the realm of psychology or law, and people throw up their hands and act as if the Bible doesn't have anything to say about it. As if sins (that we now call abuse) didn't exist or were unknown in the time of the Exodus when the Law was given, or in the time of Jesus and the Apostles when the NT was written.
@@TrnsltLife should a woman who is unhappy have to keep looking after the home? Of course. Sex isn’t like working for money or looking after the home though… it’s two people connecting their bodies.
If the wife/husband is unhappy, and the other spouse doesn’t try to resolve the issue but wants sex… and then quotes the bible to get sex… that is a sign that the demanding one is selfish and only wants their own needs met. How can he then claim to love his wife as his own body while neglecting her needs?
Or does the unhappy wife follow the process in Matt 18:15-17 (btw it doesn’t look like the appropriate process for husband and wife to deal with marital disputes).
I think some of issues we have today are modern and may have been non-issues back then. E.g. slapping your child or wife. That would be illegal abuse today, but probably not sins according to the bible. However christians ought to respect the law of the land, so we wouldn’t just dismiss these things as non-sins.
separation/divorce does not automatically mean allowed to remarry freely. And as many times as we want too.
The only reason to divorce instead of separate without divorce is to remarry. Remarriage is always adultery.
Definitely.
Also so quick to jump into marriage too. Like wasn't the first one bad enough that you can't wait to self reflect. Especially if you have kids involved.
It doesn't say you can't!
It's also important to note that the marriage covenant is an additional layer on top of all the normal responsibilities that Christians have for each other.
I appreciate this video because I think Mike better covered and discussed the nuances of non-physical abuse here than in his 3 hour teaching (which I really so appreciate but I felt like on that part he actually went too quickly).
Very helpful! Immediately downloaded the power and control wheel and recommended this video to others.
I love listening to you explain everything in life with the Bible it’s an excellent idea and you are absolutely correct the deeper teaching is so awesome I love how you get into certain topics and how you explain everything biblicaly. As deep as you can get sometimes it’s surprising to myself because I actually can understand you the way you explain the deep topics and I hope that makes sense to you what I just said and also anytime I’m feeling down I pull up one of your videos and I listen to it and it instantly cheers me up and I also try to listen to one video of yours at night before I go to sleep you are so positive and you have such good energy and just listening to you makes me feel safe before bed and I’m also learning
Hello Mike! I’m from Puerto Rico (just so you know where we listen from as well😊! Thanks for your insight on such a delicate topic and the thorough breakdown socially and biblically with so little time to do so! Clarified so much for me. Me, as a remarried man (divorce was biblically “justified”), I myself have recieved so much backlash as to why to made such a difficult decision, and believe me, I did everything in my power to restore my marriage. But some people, not being biblically sound and not being able to deal with the complexities of the issues in marriage can be a detriment to any human being that does not understand what they go through during these difficult processes. By any means that does not mean to take marriage lightly; on the contrary, it should be treated as something sacred and intended directly from God. Thanks again
Hi Mike
Just began listening to this. I feel like this is a very very indirect response to the whole Grace community church issue. Thanks for addressing such a difficult topic.
I love that opener on the desire for clarity and the difficulty with the bible due to its ambiguity. I don't think the bible is immediately clear on all topics. Some yes but there is a lot of life that we have principles to work with but require genuine spiritual discernment to understand how to work through lifes complexities. I see it as God trusting his spirit to work in us but I understand how some people see it as an oversight. but the only way for God to really cover all these ambiguous topics in detail is to live with us. To me that is either accomplished in Christ or through the Spirit. This took me a while to process because often times we are not in touch with either of these.
The "Word" accoring to Jesus was the Holy Spirit, not the Bible. INsted of advocating following laws in the Bible, he turned it over to the Holy Spirit as our Teacher. " The Sabbath was made for man, not man made for (to fit) the Sabbath." How do we know what to do for the Sabbath? Ask the Holy Spirit. It's the same for marriage.
How to connect with the Holy Spirit? Whenever you need to make a decision say, "Thy will not my will." and listen in peace.
Mike I think you are a wise, level-headed, caring person thank you so much for your effort to understand the difficult topic better!!!😊
Thank you for shedding light. Thank you for filling the missing gaps on divorce. Great counsel 👍
@Mike Winger I agree here Mike when your spouse refuses to come back to God through all means, 1 corinthians 7:15, that they are to be treated as a nonbeliever... I went through that last year and studied the topic along with your videos on divorce (thank you so much btw) and I did everything to save it to no avail. While they may be a believer, they are directly rejecting God's laws and if they do not want to change and they want to walk away, then I am justified in the divorce while they are not. It gave me great peace to know I did everything biblically and did my best to fix things. Thanks again!
Just a gentle reminder also to not to put ourselves above the other. We may be justified but we must also extend grace in the manner of their soul, I have a strong conviction that IF you are a Follower of Christ you still have, even by a little bit, desire for that person to turn back to God not to a relationship with you but solely to return to God. I am not saying you have stopped extending that grace but hoping you still do.
@@desmondsky5985 Agreed. I still pray for her all of the time, but only God can change her heart. She cannot be reconciled, but she can still be shown love through prayer.
Another way to look at it is that they have, from the Bible's point of view, already left the marriage. What complicates things in our thinking may be the fact of "getting a divorce" which is an American legal procedure that can be related to "sending away" or "separating from" as talked about in 1 Cor. 7, but it is not the exact same thing. And confusion on the differences and similarities between the eternal Biblical standard and our current transitory legal system make it hard for us to think about. By "getting a divorce", were you "sending your wife away"? Not really if she already "separated herself" from you. Maybe.
@@TrnsltLife Correct and like Mike said, "every case is different." In my case she completely "checked out" of the marriage, in short, I spent almost a year doing everything I could to fix things, love, biblical intervention, counciling, and she did not even try. So yes absolutely believe she is to be treated as an unbeliever because she rejected me, biblical teachings, and council. I even go so far to call it abuse, I was an absolute mess... Emotional abuse is no joke.
What a great conversation! I really appreciate all your insights! It is so biblical, but morover spiritually sound. Thanks
Very insightful, especially regarding abuse and abandonment and all the things not specifically mentioned in scripture. It's a topic I've spent a lot of time on
What about I Cor. 7:10-11? You said that if you "separate" that it meant "divorce", but those verses seem to indicate that a wife can "separate" if she needs to.....but forbids her to get remarried....and forbids the husband to divorce her. It says she is to remain single unless she reconciles and goes back to him.
The way Jesus worded it, it is clear that re-marriage is the problem after divorce, not the divorce itself. Anyone who divorces his wife AND marries another commits adultery. Anyone who "divorces his wife except for fornication" is understood historically to mean you can live in separate houses if one spouse commits adultery, but you still cannot marry another, because to (re)marry another is where you commit adultery.
Not every quote attributed to Jesus is actually what he said
@@robertdouglas8895 proof?
@@colekardis3723 I leave it to you to ask the Holy Spirit for proof. Here is one example.
Matthew 7:1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with righteous judgment.”
Luke 6:37
“Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;
So Jesus told us not to condemn others nor judge by appearance
He condemned them. Jesus would never say this condemnation of a whole group of people but people who wrote the Bible would
@@colekardis3723 this was deleted, twice.
Pharisees condmened Jesus
24 But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”
to which Jesus supposedly condemned them back
34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good?
Jesus would not condemn any creation of God, much less a whole group of them.
This is a key point often missed: divorced does not mean free to remarry.
It might, but it does not necessarily.
I say this with fear and trembling. God help us all.
What if the wife who is claiming to be a believer has schizophrenia, and is “scared” of her husband for unknown reasons as per her own statement? Her family helped break up our marriage by using her mental illness against the marriage. A part of me wants to walk away but it doesn’t settle right with me. As a husband it’s my desire to protect her in her vulnerability. The whole situation is convoluted to where I can’t find peace about what I should or shouldn’t do! Please help.
I believe a huge percentage of people marry the wrong person for them. I hear a lot of folks say “I married too young and didn’t know what I was doing.’” Irreconcilable differences isn’t mentioned in the Bible.
Jesus loves you! You fed us with Biblical teachings and now I have fed you back....feedback. 😊
The Lord regenerated my heart in march 2021. the following month, I married my unbelieving husband, in April 2021. I, the believer, separated myself reluctantly in November 2021. four days after we married, his narcissism came out and accused me of cheating the whole 9 yards. I was afflicted for 3 months with an illness, not normally sick. I was the sole provider. I loved my husband tho. I had to leave. It was a constant day and night 'meth' binge of drugs ( not in front of me), constantly leaving me for days and weeks sometimes in our 2.8-year relationship on the whole. I work from home, paid all bills, became a mother to his children on the weekends, and loved my husband. Maybe I was sick too. By the grace of the Lord, I always welcomed my hubby home with no questions, just loved him and took care of him. After we became married, I became sick, he turned into someone I didn't know. 24 hours a day he stayed up, yelling, cursing. I was a new believer who no longer delighted in smoking pot, living the life that we did. but I didn't nag him ever into my new life. I didn't want to leave but I had a 14-year-old who he came to detest. She is a quiet kid who never talked back and suffered his wrath of whatever he dished out. I couldn't keep allowing that to happen. I now live 90 min away, he carried on with his life, rendered homeless to live with his parents. He has moved on. I will only be divorced if he divorces me. I refuse to give up on the notion that our Holy God is greater than these problems. Tomorrow is our one-year anniversary, we don't speak. we tried to the last couple of months, but it doesn't go over well. He gets angry at just anything. The Lord saved me, the awful sinner I am. I know He can save my husband. I don't know if my husband is 'elect'. I am willing to wait because I trust in the saving power of my Savior. I refuse to divorce. I am still in love with my husband. I have no malice toward him. I find if I did, it would satisfy the hearts of others around me. I not only love him, but I wait on the Lord. It could take months or years. I will wait on my Lord. may the Lord be glorified in his works and sovereignty of all things. I will tell you, it is a priceless privilege to suffer for Christ. I am grateful to be called. I am grateful the Lord has saved me above all. I wish my husband to be saved. He knows not one person in the entirety of his family who is a true believer. Most believe they are. My church does not know my husband as I joined when I moved back home 90 minutes away in Nov. He is on our prayer list. I pray for the desire to be joyful in whatever the Lord will do. If it is not in the will of our God to reconcile my husband's hearts to Himself and then our marriage, I shall rejoice because He is still my King, still on the throne, still Lord of my life. I was 48 when the Lord saved me in the midst of my sinful life of fornication, etc. If he can save me in the storm, He can save my husband. May the grace of the Lord be with you all.
There are a few narrow exceptions for divorce. But I don't see anything that allows for remarriage
Thank you for this very wise and sensitive clarification. I appreciate both of you for your sensitivity to the Lord and His Word. I haven't taken the time to listen to your 3 hour video Mike, so this was wonderful. I'm 70 years old, I was married for 20 years and raised 3 sons and have been divorced for 30 years, and like so many, I've struggled with the nuances of this issue. I was in an abusive marriage, which I didn't see as abusive, and society at the time (the 1970's and 80's) didn't see as abusive, because I didn't have broken bones or visible scars. I experienced the counsel that Julie touched on. In fact, I was given Maribel Morgan's book "The Total Woman"....I know now to be the absolute worst counsel, worst book, for my situation, because my husband was very sexually abusive as well as verbally, emotionally, and physically. But I took the book to heart because I believed it would help. What I learned from that book simply intensified the sickness of the sexual abuse I had been living with. In 1992, I finally filed for a separation after my husband had been having an affair for two years. I still wanted the marriage to work, because I knew that was Jesus' perfect will. My husband immediately converted the separation to divorce proceedings, but our church saw me as the guilty one because I had filed. Our pastor pulled me out of every ministry I was involved in, offered us counseling in exchange for him stopping divorce proceedings...which he never did. Anyway, long story short, I went from being abused in my marriage to being abused in my church. It has taken me all these years to process all of this, and to work through the confusion and guilt of being held responsible for the marriage ending. Even though I've been following Jesus for 50 years, and even though I'm in His Word and in fellowship with Him daily, the enemy still managed to get his little tentacles in and has harassed me with his lies in my weak times. Thank you for giving me more ammunition to fight off the lies and condemnation! This is a video I'm going to save and come back to when I need reminding. God bless you, Mike and Julie!
Hello Jan
🙏💔🙏💔🙏💔🙏💔😇🙏😇🙏😇🙏😇🙏😇
I noticed the little dog when mike said at 24:06 "im out of here i hate this stuff"got up and left, lolz. Keep up the great teaching's mike!
“And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.” (1 Corinthians 7:10-11, KJV)
I think it's important that we also talk about when the wife is abusive to the husband. Can the husband leave her for verbal and physical abuse?
Yes of course. Sadly in this country courts often side with the mother if there are child custody battles so a husband should make sure to get rock solid evidence and a good lawyer.
Hi Andrea. While they gave more examples of man on woman abuse since it's more common I can't think of any Scripture that would give an exception to a man in this instance. I think that whatever advice that Pastor Mike gave in these videos should be equally applied to the man unless he specifically says otherwise. That was my take on it anyways.
I wonder if scripture handles the issue of abuse in marriage when it talks about church discipline. Without strong men in church leadership willing to call out other men and work through church discipline, women are more vulnerable.
scripture says verbal abusers do not inherit eternal life.
Hi Mike
We watched this video and really enjoyed the balanced and pastoral approach you expressed.
We have found that a marriage issue usually (not always) is caused by both husband and wife contributing to the conflict. Matthew 7 (see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye) teaches is to address the issues in ourselves instead of trying to correct our spouse.
This is particularly relevant when looking at re-marriage. I look for or encourage a repentant heart for their part in causing the demise of the marriage. Even if it is small in comparison. It is a platform to learn and remain humble before God.
This must obviously not be done in a judgemental but rather a heart way.
The biblical basis for separating for abuse is basic creation: We have been built by God to remove our hand from a burning fire. Therefore, it is appropriate to remove yourself from an abusive situation. Separation is the remedy for abuse.
Mike. Please do more study on the affects of porn on the marriage and spouse (especially the female). This is the second time I've heard you downplay this. Your very shallow comments are not correct. A lot of people who haven't walked through this sinful behavior have problems elevating as anything more than lust.
Sin has very real implications in our lives - especially after we have turned to Christ. When there is deep, continual or unrepentant sin, the clear application of Biblical principles becomes more complex and difficult. While Jesus can redeem, we must not deceive ourselves: what we sow, we will also reap. (Gal 6)
Keep up the GREAT WORK. I do a lot of Online Q and A Sessions throughout each week covering Scripture, Diabetes, History, etc., as a now Retired Public Librarian and continuous Researcher... and Prayer Warrior...