If you liked the content leave a like, comment and share. Also leave comment on subject you would like us to talk about if you have any requests. Also we may look into bringing people on the podcast to talk lore and speculate with us. If that does sound appealing leave a comment. I mean I know its early days and my upload schedule is a nightmare but one of the sayings I was raised on was you don't know, if you don't ask. So well see what happens.
I can be honest and say that I prefer the format of some of your earlier videos (Nathrezim Conspiracy, Flames of Dawn, etc), where you've got a script prepared, images/video ready, and also use some evocative background music to set the tone of the discussion. That said, I'm of course also open to listening to what you've got planned here as well -- just please don't forsake the older format completely! Topic-wise: Once more is known about 9.1 lore, I'd like to see you do a "look back" at some of your older theories (Wolves of the Shadowlands, First Ones, Flames of Dawn, Nathrezim Conspiracy, and more), and evaluate how much of what you speculated upon has stood the test of time, and/or whether you've reworked some of your theories to better fit in with new lore. As always though, good job!
I prefer the longer, scripted and more structured videos because it is easier to understand what you are talking about. If you are gonna do these types of podcasts in the future I would like them to be a little bit more structured so that I know which topic you are discussing.
From what I understand the Gilded Serpent in King's Rest is to prevent another blood plague from Hakkar's blood breaking out. Gold tends to be connected to purifying properties.
Sorry about my voice, I have been very sick the last year and a bit, but I couldn't pass up an opportunity to talk lore with Etch. I hope you guys understand :)
I really love the lore speculation conent, though I'd appreciate a bit more structure. At times it felt a bit rambly and I wasn't sure where the topic was going, or what was trying to be said, so I had to relisten to the same segments sever times. Some words I couldn't catch, even when I was relistening a few times in a row. Other than than that, I LOVED the series and I'd love to have more!! I love your content and speculations and it's never enough!
@@jontaylor4540 I understood Lhok, but missed 2 words or so. I also loved their contribution and I think they added a lot to the podcast, but again, just a bit more structure, so flows more smoothly :)
@@thedreadexpanse3817 I hope I wasn't too harsh. I absolutely ADORE your content and you're my favorite youtuber, so I can't wait for more. Until then, I hope to catch you on S&L ^^
what you just speculated is actually opens a path to explain how elune found her way into azeroth . as a primitive race and their ability to move in between several different dimension theres a huge possibility that trolls find out about elune in their travels between dimensions and therefore you see xal'atath calling elune an upstart diety which indicates that she ARRIVES when black empire is already active at the same time. and of course several other parts of puzzles around WotA incident as well
Great video! As Danko said it could probably use some more structure, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. As for other topics, i’d personally really enjoy some speculation on the true origin of the Tauren. The main things I’m thinking of is ofc the “beware the deep places of the earth” quote and a demon finding the bloodtotems’ corruption “strange considering their origins. The probable answer is that they’re created by/from a wild god, thus placing them in the life/nature camp which doesn’t play nice with fel/chaos. Something small i always wondered about is the raven magic used by the scarlet onslaught and i think some other places tho i can’t remember where. I always liked the idea of there being some sort of raven/crow carrion feeder wild god that has some connection to death.
The raven magic used by the scarlet onslaught is very interesting, I believe its tied to the dreadlords. Mal'ganis specifically since there was talk of how their blessing was whispered by the holy light to the Admiral Westwind who was Mal'ganis in disguise. This leads me to believe their magic is a form of shadow/void magic which comes from the dreadlords, so perhaps there are links to the Nathrezim and Crows/Ravens.
This is very interesting...perhaps when he died once and was in Ardenweald, he met Bwonsamdi or Mueh'zala, lamenting that the Arrakoa didn't like or have any use for him anymore and making a bargain to be reborn on Azeroth instead...this could explain why there are nearly identical wind serpents on both planets, as he was the progenitor of them on each of the worlds.
Etch The Quack, you know how many WoW you tubers do the cinematic analysis video and how they seem to be incredibly popular among the community, wouldn’t it be fun that you also upload your own cinematic analysis after the cinematics are released. I would like to hear your thoughts about each cinematic. This would a similiar type of video to the ones like the ending of Azshara cinematic where you speculated that N’Zoth tried to outmanouver death.
~25:00 Sorry to be that guy, but Agamaggan (the quillboar progenitor) also did not show up in Hyjal during Cataclysm and fought during the War of the Ancients. ~33:00 You may be onto something here - I always thought it was strange that Zul used the frame of a Darkspear (lesser) troll and not a Zandalari. Now, it could have just been that he was old and bent, but given that the Darkspear's patron was Bwonsamdi, it makes sense that Zul would have taken on similar characteristics if he had practiced death magic or been devoted to a death god (Bwonsamdi or Mueh'zala). Given that throughout his long life he turned to anyone who could give him power or further his schemes, it's not unlikely he bargained with either of them for a long time and became steeped in not only their power, but also their "look", for lack of a better term. Bwonsamdi himself looks more like a Darkspear than a "pure", Zandalari troll, after all. ~35:00 I think that you might have fallen into the trap the devs (not-so-)cleverly set with Revendreth. While it's an interesting idea (that may turn out to be right), I'm skeptical because they are not *actually* vampires drinking blood or practicing blood magic - they just borrow the aesthetic. I truly think that Denathrius was just a case of desperation and absolute power corrupting absolutely, especially considering I can't find any concrete examples of blood magic being practiced in Revendreth. (Which is, incidentally since I play a dps warrior main, the only Covenant I've had extensive experience with.) Again, I'll admit I could be wrong as well on this, but I feel that's part of the problem with how Revendreth is presented: there are plenty of references to 'blood' but there is nothing definitive. In fact, the anima that the denizens of Revendreth drain/stockpile looks like blood - even the anima reservoir that players fill looks like a tank of blood. It's like they designed it with blood magic in mind, but realized later that wouldn't make any sense in the land of the dead - where no physical corpses actually are - and changed it all to anima. I could actually see that the original SDL designs didn't have the four realms all collecting anima, but instead a different aspect of life(force), but that this got changed to simplify gameplay (and streamline the story) later in development. That would partially explain why all four covenants collect a different colored anima. (Side note: I thought it was kind of cheap for them to do this - they essentially "back-doored" vampires into this expansion and we've gotten no solid new lore connections between them, blood magic, and the San'layn - the "real" vampires of WoW - which was hinted at before SDL released.) ~37:30 I'm still working on my full dissection of Nazmir's history and previous geography, but I don't think the water around the Necropolis is a natural barrier. Bwonsamdi was once a principal loa of the Zandalari when they primarily lived in Nazmir, and I believe the area around the Necropolis didn't get as flooded as it is until the Cataclysm, or shortly after, when the island as a whole started sinking into the ocean. I'm also going to present my hypothesis about Xal'vor, suffice it to say for now that ol' Bwonsamdi was just referring to the literal tons of sacrifices of abducted trolls and their blood that was spilled all over Nazmir, and not referring to Xal'vor. (Although, I will tell you: I have a very wickedly sly idea of part of the purpose around the layout of the Necropolis. I also have a LOT of thoughts about Xal'vor, but I will save those for the aforementioned dissection as well.) ~39:00 I'm pretty sure Bwonsamdi actually doesn't like Blood Trolls because when they kill something, it goes to G'huun and not to him. Same reason he had for not allying with Sylvanas: "dat one has a nasty habit of keepin' what she kills." (The Loa of Death [50]) Furthermore, Bwonsamdi's presence and his connection to Necromancy and the fact that the area of Nazmir was, by extension, soaked in this power could explain how Torga was able to cheat death even with the "Machine of Death" being broken at this time to be immediately reincarnated, rather than taking the scenic route through Ardenweald, like the other loa have. Also, remember, we got confirmation of at LEAST two unseen Titan facilities in BfA: one was unnamed and the other is called Uldaz. I think if we can manage to figure out what the second half of the names of all the 'Ul' facilities mean, it will explain a LOT. (Oooooh, I just had a thought when proofreading this: Uldir > Ul-Dir > Ul-Dyr > Ul-TYR! If you say it just quickly, it sounds like Ul-TYR - what if, and here's a quacked one from me: it WAS Tyr's secret project and it's name literally mean "fortress of Tyr" or "facility of Tyr" or something similar?!) ~45:00 "Tyr had a hand in it" - I lol'd immediately! ~48:00 I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but as it is the Loa who bless the Shadowhunters with their powers, part of me thinks it was so the Loa could make elite special forces troops to defend them because they were being abducted by the Titans (*cough* Tyr *cough*) for "reasons". ~49:30 I wouldn't worry too much about Archaedas being corrupted, as Titan-Keeper Hezrul was there the entire time and was completely uncorrupted, just worn down from ages of deactivation. To further this, Neltharion was affected by the Curse of Flesh, which made him susceptible to the OGs corruption. The Keepers and Watchers in question were not subject to the same curse. Also, M.O.T.H.E.R. was literally in the same building as G'huun for years and was so uncorrupted, she made us pass a purification matrix test before going any further. (Side note: this is interesting, as the Maiden of Virtue in Karazahn also had a very similar impetus in regards to us, but she was clearly malfunctiong on some level.) Taloc was a special case, as he was deliberately corrupted, not passively as you are suggesting others might have been. I believe all the Titan-adjacent entities had mini-seals built into them as safeguards against the power of the corruption G'huun/Old Gods have, as they already knew their capabilities while building it. I don't know how much I agree with the "Weapon X"-esque secret project idea of Uldir. I think the keepers were aware of it, as M.O.T.H.E.R. was aware of the Heart Chamber before anyone told her about it: it was her suggestion to relocate there from Uldir (Necessity Is The MOTHER [50]). Not sure how compartmentalized any of this information really was or is, although it's very odd that a Watcher knew about the Heart Chamber (MOTHER), but a KEEPER did not. I kinda feel like Ra-den knew and was just trying to say something to start a conversation with MOTHER (wink, wink.) I didn't know where to put this part into the paragraph above, so I'm adding it as it's own point. This may seem contradictory, when you look at it, as the Abyssal Watchers and Anubisaths exist, which are literally Titan Watchers corrupted by N'zoth. I believe this is why these guys had these seals built into them at the point Uldir was built (we're still talking ages and ages and ages ago, probably shortly after the fall of the Black Empire). During the Black Empire days, I think the Titans realized from the Abyssal Watchers and the Anubisaths, etc. in Ahn'Qiraj that Old Gods could corrupt even Titan Watchers of metal and stone if they were in close proximity or soaked with enough purple (like Ra-den in Ny'alotha, but he's also been well damaged for a loooong time so he was at a very large disadvantage in resisting N'zoth's corruption). This is somewhat contradicted by the corruption of the Keepers in Ulduar, but we all know that many of the safeguards there broke down or were purposely sabotaged, so I think this theory still holds. ~50:00 Has it been confirmed that G'huun is a giant, mutated Gorm? Because if not, I think that's a hugely insightful find on your part. I would have almost never made that connection, but it makes TONS of sense, especially since we know the Titan Keepers had ways of subverting the "Machine of Death". Although, how would the Titans, as you postulate, have pulled things to Azeroth from the Shadowlands? Not to be argumentative, but Odyn was one of the most powerful Keepers - so powerful he literally broke his wing of Ulduar off and moved it to the sky, and I guess later crashed it into Stormheim, but I digress. My point is that Odyn could only PEER into the Shadowlands and stop some souls from going there, and even that was after he made a huge sacrificial deal with Mueh'zala for the ability to see into it. Forgive me if there's already been something established where the Titans themselves and their agents can physically pull things from there, but if there is, I missed it. (Though I haven't finished the Bastion or Maldraxxus storylines yet.) OR, nullifying almost this entire paragraph (lol), is the idea that the Gorm used to be on Azeroth when G'huun was created and went extinct during the Sundering or just naturally by eating themselves out of a habitat? Also, I'm curious about something: Lhok mentions a "crystal heart" that was banished to the void - are you talking about Hakkar's Heart from the original ZG and, if so, where did you find the information that it was cast into the void? P.S. - Love the idea of live lore discussions. Keep that up, please. This is fun, and it makes me feel like I have someone to bounce ideas off of. XD
Whoa that's some text :) I will have to go through it when I have a lot of time to break it all down, but I will quickly say yes! the crystal heart that was banished into the void was from the original ZG heart of hakkar turn in. When you hand in the heart to Molthor on Yo'jamba Isle, who ends up on the isle of thunder with Zul and his group later on in Pandaria, he states "Begin the ritual, my servants. We must banish the heart of Hakkar back into the void!" Thanks for the reply I am super glad you found it enjoyable!
@@lhokvalkenhayn9703 Nice catch! I did not know that. And yes, it is quite some text haha...Etch is getting familiar (annoyed?) with my essay-length responses by now I'm sure! XD
@@TheRealCeeJai If you want to discuss lore and share your ideas about WoW feel free to join the Shinies and Luckydos discord if you aren’t already there.
Never annoyed. You put together very well constructed comments and they are interesting to read. Your right about Aggamagam. Though I always figured considering the story surrounding the Razor Fen there was context for why he never turned up, in comparison to the other wild gods. When it comes G'hunn, it hasn't been confirmed as a Gorm, but the similarities seems a bit to uncanny. Something I do need to admit though is that considering the origin of the Gorm is seemingly unknown, as the brokers make it very clear the creatures are seemingly used as livestock and weapons, it is a jump assuming G'hunn, if he is a Grom came from Ardenweald. That said where I get what your saying about Odyn's power and in turn lack of ability to enter the shadowlands/lack of knowledge about them being strange, its that lack of ability and knowledge that for me lends to the idea there was a lot of compartmentalized when it came to Keepers. As in Helya knew about the shadowlands and knew how to access it, but Odyn seemingly didn't and seemingly needed her to summon Mueh'zala. On the same end Ra'den, yeah where Ra'den may have been trying to start a conversation with mother (Wink, Wink.) That whole situation seems odd considering of all the titan forged who should have known about the heart chamber, its Ra'den, considering he basically built all of the southern facilities. But coming back to Ardenweald I guess my though process at the moment is, there was some form of compartmentalization process, possibly with the intent to avoid one keeper having the ability to bring every safeguard down at once, (Possibly why Loken's betrayal to large extent was simultaneously effective and not at the same time.) but ether way I think this compartmentalization saw certain keepers and or Titanforged not only privy to certain information but also have access to certain realms and powers. (E.g Freya's seeming domain over the Emerald dream and Tyr's seemingly o overt connections to the shadowlands.)
That keeper looking construct you are talking about behind that pyramid was only looking like that on the beta. It was changed if I remember correctly in the live game.
@@thedreadexpanse3817 I mean you have to think, they can't come up with brand new skeletons for new creatures for each expansion, that would take a lot of time and money. So reskinning existing skeletons makes it easy to make things look new but with less invested into it. So lorewise it's possible the Gorm and the Devourer mites and other creatures that resemble others we've seen might not actually look those ways. Or it could be that it's a base blueprint that First Ones established so these type of creatures appear all over the Cosmos in one way or another. It's really hard to say.
True. I completely forgot about that. And now that I think about and the confirmation we have about what time is related to... that makes Meuh'zala even more of an enigma.
@@thedreadexpanse3817 Yeah, I still don't think he was originally a Loa him Jani and the Loa that were Trolls that ascended all speak like Trolls. All of the other Loa do not speak like this, even the ones that are more old school like Hi'reek and Kimbul. Even Hakkar doesn't speak like a Troll. Only Zanza, Bwonsamdi, Mueh'zala, and Jani seem to be the only Loa that speak like how the Trolls do.
I honestly think that Azeroth is a titan that houses a First One inside her. Similarly to how the keepers housed the remnants of titanic spirits inside of them.
@@shadowgamer4306 Yep, my thought of her being a First One could also, but this idea makes a lot of sense too. My theory has the issue that if she is a First One would she still dream like a Titan, and therefore would the Titans be able to even mix that up? But this idea they could easily get fooled but also be right.
There is way too many connections between the SLs and Azeroth. Not just Bwonsambi, Mueh'zala and the Trolls and some became Night Elves, but the Mogu, Mantid, and Aqir. Also, the connection between the Keepers, the Valarjar and the Vrykul or undead Vargul not to mention Helya is the SLs, and the Vargul in Torghast. You also mentioned Uldaman and the Discs of Norgannon and a few of the systems of control over Azeroth connected to the Forge of Wills and the Chamber of the Heart which were powered like a lazer to destroy N'zoth, bunch of BS anyway and not real imo. What about the other ones, Uldaman of course, Uldum, Ulduar, and Uldir were dealt with so to speak. Uldis in the Storm Peaks and also Uldorus and Uldazi, which are only mentioned in Chronicle and by the Maiden of Vitality. How many of these Uld Forges, Systems of Control are there and were they all originated by the Titans.
If you liked the content leave a like, comment and share. Also leave comment on subject you would like us to talk about if you have any requests.
Also we may look into bringing people on the podcast to talk lore and speculate with us. If that does sound appealing leave a comment. I mean I know its early days and my upload schedule is a nightmare but one of the sayings I was raised on was you don't know, if you don't ask. So well see what happens.
I look forward to the guests you're thinking of. A podcast with multiple lore nerds speculating together would be awesome
I can be honest and say that I prefer the format of some of your earlier videos (Nathrezim Conspiracy, Flames of Dawn, etc), where you've got a script prepared, images/video ready, and also use some evocative background music to set the tone of the discussion.
That said, I'm of course also open to listening to what you've got planned here as well -- just please don't forsake the older format completely!
Topic-wise: Once more is known about 9.1 lore, I'd like to see you do a "look back" at some of your older theories (Wolves of the Shadowlands, First Ones, Flames of Dawn, Nathrezim Conspiracy, and more), and evaluate how much of what you speculated upon has stood the test of time, and/or whether you've reworked some of your theories to better fit in with new lore.
As always though, good job!
I prefer the longer, scripted and more structured videos because it is easier to understand what you are talking about. If you are gonna do these types of podcasts in the future I would like them to be a little bit more structured so that I know which topic you are discussing.
@@shadowgamer4306 Understood and we will attempt to.
@@magdalena2882 Hi Mags! Fancy seeing you here!!! =0D
From what I understand the Gilded Serpent in King's Rest is to prevent another blood plague from Hakkar's blood breaking out. Gold tends to be connected to purifying properties.
Sorry about my voice, I have been very sick the last year and a bit, but I couldn't pass up an opportunity to talk lore with Etch. I hope you guys understand :)
you were GREAT! Thank you for your awesome contribution!
@@Saleos25 Thank you :D
Very good ideas, I hope you guys continue with this. I wish you well!
@@georgescuroxanacristina7938 Thank you :)
This is an amazing birthday present Etch the Quack!
Happy birthday
@@thedreadexpanse3817 Thank you!
I really love the lore speculation conent, though I'd appreciate a bit more structure. At times it felt a bit rambly and I wasn't sure where the topic was going, or what was trying to be said, so I had to relisten to the same segments sever times. Some words I couldn't catch, even when I was relistening a few times in a row.
Other than than that, I LOVED the series and I'd love to have more!! I love your content and speculations and it's never enough!
I can’t hear anything or follow the ideas of the girl talking at all
@@jontaylor4540 I understood Lhok, but missed 2 words or so. I also loved their contribution and I think they added a lot to the podcast, but again, just a bit more structure, so flows more smoothly :)
Thank you and thank you for the for feedback.
@@thedreadexpanse3817 I hope I wasn't too harsh. I absolutely ADORE your content and you're my favorite youtuber, so I can't wait for more. Until then, I hope to catch you on S&L ^^
@@Saleos25 You weren't harsh. You were honest and its appreciated.
That bit about the Celts placing heads on their saddles explains the Vicious War Horse mount for the Alliance.
what you just speculated is actually opens a path to explain how elune found her way into azeroth . as a primitive race and their ability to move in between several different dimension theres a huge possibility that trolls find out about elune in their travels between dimensions and therefore you see xal'atath calling elune an upstart diety which indicates that she ARRIVES when black empire is already active at the same time. and of course several other parts of puzzles around WotA incident as well
I come from Shiannas' channel, he has recommended your channel in a stream, and now i'm very happy. Nice work!!
I will have to thank them
Great video! As Danko said it could probably use some more structure, but I enjoyed it nonetheless.
As for other topics, i’d personally really enjoy some speculation on the true origin of the Tauren. The main things I’m thinking of is ofc the “beware the deep places of the earth” quote and a demon finding the bloodtotems’ corruption “strange considering their origins. The probable answer is that they’re created by/from a wild god, thus placing them in the life/nature camp which doesn’t play nice with fel/chaos.
Something small i always wondered about is the raven magic used by the scarlet onslaught and i think some other places tho i can’t remember where. I always liked the idea of there being some sort of raven/crow carrion feeder wild god that has some connection to death.
Thanks for the feedback and the topic suggestion.
The raven magic used by the scarlet onslaught is very interesting, I believe its tied to the dreadlords. Mal'ganis specifically since there was talk of how their blessing was whispered by the holy light to the Admiral Westwind who was Mal'ganis in disguise. This leads me to believe their magic is a form of shadow/void magic which comes from the dreadlords, so perhaps there are links to the Nathrezim and Crows/Ravens.
Wooohooo!!! NEW VID from my fave WoW theorists
First Home is where Vol'jin and Zalazane went.
My theory for the last few years is that Hakkar used to be Sethe.
This is very interesting...perhaps when he died once and was in Ardenweald, he met Bwonsamdi or Mueh'zala, lamenting that the Arrakoa didn't like or have any use for him anymore and making a bargain to be reborn on Azeroth instead...this could explain why there are nearly identical wind serpents on both planets, as he was the progenitor of them on each of the worlds.
Etch The Quack, you know how many WoW you tubers do the cinematic analysis video and how they seem to be incredibly popular among the community, wouldn’t it be fun that you also upload your own cinematic analysis after the cinematics are released. I would like to hear your thoughts about each cinematic. This would a similiar type of video to the ones like the ending of Azshara cinematic where you speculated that N’Zoth tried to outmanouver death.
Thank you for the suggestion ShadowGamer. I'll look into it. I just have to find the time.
~25:00 Sorry to be that guy, but Agamaggan (the quillboar progenitor) also did not show up in Hyjal during Cataclysm and fought during the War of the Ancients.
~33:00 You may be onto something here - I always thought it was strange that Zul used the frame of a Darkspear (lesser) troll and not a Zandalari. Now, it could have just been that he was old and bent, but given that the Darkspear's patron was Bwonsamdi, it makes sense that Zul would have taken on similar characteristics if he had practiced death magic or been devoted to a death god (Bwonsamdi or Mueh'zala). Given that throughout his long life he turned to anyone who could give him power or further his schemes, it's not unlikely he bargained with either of them for a long time and became steeped in not only their power, but also their "look", for lack of a better term. Bwonsamdi himself looks more like a Darkspear than a "pure", Zandalari troll, after all.
~35:00 I think that you might have fallen into the trap the devs (not-so-)cleverly set with Revendreth. While it's an interesting idea (that may turn out to be right), I'm skeptical because they are not *actually* vampires drinking blood or practicing blood magic - they just borrow the aesthetic. I truly think that Denathrius was just a case of desperation and absolute power corrupting absolutely, especially considering I can't find any concrete examples of blood magic being practiced in Revendreth. (Which is, incidentally since I play a dps warrior main, the only Covenant I've had extensive experience with.) Again, I'll admit I could be wrong as well on this, but I feel that's part of the problem with how Revendreth is presented: there are plenty of references to 'blood' but there is nothing definitive. In fact, the anima that the denizens of Revendreth drain/stockpile looks like blood - even the anima reservoir that players fill looks like a tank of blood. It's like they designed it with blood magic in mind, but realized later that wouldn't make any sense in the land of the dead - where no physical corpses actually are - and changed it all to anima. I could actually see that the original SDL designs didn't have the four realms all collecting anima, but instead a different aspect of life(force), but that this got changed to simplify gameplay (and streamline the story) later in development. That would partially explain why all four covenants collect a different colored anima. (Side note: I thought it was kind of cheap for them to do this - they essentially "back-doored" vampires into this expansion and we've gotten no solid new lore connections between them, blood magic, and the San'layn - the "real" vampires of WoW - which was hinted at before SDL released.)
~37:30 I'm still working on my full dissection of Nazmir's history and previous geography, but I don't think the water around the Necropolis is a natural barrier. Bwonsamdi was once a principal loa of the Zandalari when they primarily lived in Nazmir, and I believe the area around the Necropolis didn't get as flooded as it is until the Cataclysm, or shortly after, when the island as a whole started sinking into the ocean. I'm also going to present my hypothesis about Xal'vor, suffice it to say for now that ol' Bwonsamdi was just referring to the literal tons of sacrifices of abducted trolls and their blood that was spilled all over Nazmir, and not referring to Xal'vor. (Although, I will tell you: I have a very wickedly sly idea of part of the purpose around the layout of the Necropolis. I also have a LOT of thoughts about Xal'vor, but I will save those for the aforementioned dissection as well.)
~39:00 I'm pretty sure Bwonsamdi actually doesn't like Blood Trolls because when they kill something, it goes to G'huun and not to him. Same reason he had for not allying with Sylvanas: "dat one has a nasty habit of keepin' what she kills." (The Loa of Death [50]) Furthermore, Bwonsamdi's presence and his connection to Necromancy and the fact that the area of Nazmir was, by extension, soaked in this power could explain how Torga was able to cheat death even with the "Machine of Death" being broken at this time to be immediately reincarnated, rather than taking the scenic route through Ardenweald, like the other loa have. Also, remember, we got confirmation of at LEAST two unseen Titan facilities in BfA: one was unnamed and the other is called Uldaz. I think if we can manage to figure out what the second half of the names of all the 'Ul' facilities mean, it will explain a LOT. (Oooooh, I just had a thought when proofreading this: Uldir > Ul-Dir > Ul-Dyr > Ul-TYR! If you say it just quickly, it sounds like Ul-TYR - what if, and here's a quacked one from me: it WAS Tyr's secret project and it's name literally mean "fortress of Tyr" or "facility of Tyr" or something similar?!)
~45:00 "Tyr had a hand in it" - I lol'd immediately!
~48:00 I'm not sure if this is what you meant, but as it is the Loa who bless the Shadowhunters with their powers, part of me thinks it was so the Loa could make elite special forces troops to defend them because they were being abducted by the Titans (*cough* Tyr *cough*) for "reasons".
~49:30 I wouldn't worry too much about Archaedas being corrupted, as Titan-Keeper Hezrul was there the entire time and was completely uncorrupted, just worn down from ages of deactivation. To further this, Neltharion was affected by the Curse of Flesh, which made him susceptible to the OGs corruption. The Keepers and Watchers in question were not subject to the same curse. Also, M.O.T.H.E.R. was literally in the same building as G'huun for years and was so uncorrupted, she made us pass a purification matrix test before going any further. (Side note: this is interesting, as the Maiden of Virtue in Karazahn also had a very similar impetus in regards to us, but she was clearly malfunctiong on some level.) Taloc was a special case, as he was deliberately corrupted, not passively as you are suggesting others might have been. I believe all the Titan-adjacent entities had mini-seals built into them as safeguards against the power of the corruption G'huun/Old Gods have, as they already knew their capabilities while building it. I don't know how much I agree with the "Weapon X"-esque secret project idea of Uldir. I think the keepers were aware of it, as M.O.T.H.E.R. was aware of the Heart Chamber before anyone told her about it: it was her suggestion to relocate there from Uldir (Necessity Is The MOTHER [50]). Not sure how compartmentalized any of this information really was or is, although it's very odd that a Watcher knew about the Heart Chamber (MOTHER), but a KEEPER did not. I kinda feel like Ra-den knew and was just trying to say something to start a conversation with MOTHER (wink, wink.)
I didn't know where to put this part into the paragraph above, so I'm adding it as it's own point. This may seem contradictory, when you look at it, as the Abyssal Watchers and Anubisaths exist, which are literally Titan Watchers corrupted by N'zoth. I believe this is why these guys had these seals built into them at the point Uldir was built (we're still talking ages and ages and ages ago, probably shortly after the fall of the Black Empire). During the Black Empire days, I think the Titans realized from the Abyssal Watchers and the Anubisaths, etc. in Ahn'Qiraj that Old Gods could corrupt even Titan Watchers of metal and stone if they were in close proximity or soaked with enough purple (like Ra-den in Ny'alotha, but he's also been well damaged for a loooong time so he was at a very large disadvantage in resisting N'zoth's corruption). This is somewhat contradicted by the corruption of the Keepers in Ulduar, but we all know that many of the safeguards there broke down or were purposely sabotaged, so I think this theory still holds.
~50:00 Has it been confirmed that G'huun is a giant, mutated Gorm? Because if not, I think that's a hugely insightful find on your part. I would have almost never made that connection, but it makes TONS of sense, especially since we know the Titan Keepers had ways of subverting the "Machine of Death". Although, how would the Titans, as you postulate, have pulled things to Azeroth from the Shadowlands? Not to be argumentative, but Odyn was one of the most powerful Keepers - so powerful he literally broke his wing of Ulduar off and moved it to the sky, and I guess later crashed it into Stormheim, but I digress. My point is that Odyn could only PEER into the Shadowlands and stop some souls from going there, and even that was after he made a huge sacrificial deal with Mueh'zala for the ability to see into it. Forgive me if there's already been something established where the Titans themselves and their agents can physically pull things from there, but if there is, I missed it. (Though I haven't finished the Bastion or Maldraxxus storylines yet.) OR, nullifying almost this entire paragraph (lol), is the idea that the Gorm used to be on Azeroth when G'huun was created and went extinct during the Sundering or just naturally by eating themselves out of a habitat?
Also, I'm curious about something: Lhok mentions a "crystal heart" that was banished to the void - are you talking about Hakkar's Heart from the original ZG and, if so, where did you find the information that it was cast into the void?
P.S. - Love the idea of live lore discussions. Keep that up, please. This is fun, and it makes me feel like I have someone to bounce ideas off of. XD
Whoa that's some text :) I will have to go through it when I have a lot of time to break it all down, but I will quickly say yes! the crystal heart that was banished into the void was from the original ZG heart of hakkar turn in. When you hand in the heart to Molthor on Yo'jamba Isle, who ends up on the isle of thunder with Zul and his group later on in Pandaria, he states "Begin the ritual, my servants. We must banish the heart of Hakkar back into the void!" Thanks for the reply I am super glad you found it enjoyable!
@@lhokvalkenhayn9703 Nice catch! I did not know that. And yes, it is quite some text haha...Etch is getting familiar (annoyed?) with my essay-length responses by now I'm sure! XD
@@TheRealCeeJai If you want to discuss lore and share your ideas about WoW feel free to join the Shinies and Luckydos discord if you aren’t already there.
@@shadowgamer4306 How perchance would one go about this?
Never annoyed. You put together very well constructed comments and they are interesting to read.
Your right about Aggamagam. Though I always figured considering the story surrounding the Razor Fen there was context for why he never turned up, in comparison to the other wild gods.
When it comes G'hunn, it hasn't been confirmed as a Gorm, but the similarities seems a bit to uncanny. Something I do need to admit though is that considering the origin of the Gorm is seemingly unknown, as the brokers make it very clear the creatures are seemingly used as livestock and weapons, it is a jump assuming G'hunn, if he is a Grom came from Ardenweald. That said where I get what your saying about Odyn's power and in turn lack of ability to enter the shadowlands/lack of knowledge about them being strange, its that lack of ability and knowledge that for me lends to the idea there was a lot of compartmentalized when it came to Keepers. As in Helya knew about the shadowlands and knew how to access it, but Odyn seemingly didn't and seemingly needed her to summon Mueh'zala. On the same end Ra'den, yeah where Ra'den may have been trying to start a conversation with mother (Wink, Wink.) That whole situation seems odd considering of all the titan forged who should have known about the heart chamber, its Ra'den, considering he basically built all of the southern facilities.
But coming back to Ardenweald I guess my though process at the moment is, there was some form of compartmentalization process, possibly with the intent to avoid one keeper having the ability to bring every safeguard down at once, (Possibly why Loken's betrayal to large extent was simultaneously effective and not at the same time.) but ether way I think this compartmentalization saw certain keepers and or Titanforged not only privy to certain information but also have access to certain realms and powers. (E.g Freya's seeming domain over the Emerald dream and Tyr's seemingly o overt connections to the shadowlands.)
also, Hakkar being blood corrupted wind serpent segment blew my mind!
That keeper looking construct you are talking about behind that pyramid was only looking like that on the beta. It was changed if I remember correctly in the live game.
Took a screenshot and put it up in the discord so you can see what I was talking about :)
Very interesting, as always from you guys!
Sadly I think the reason the Gorm look similar to G'huun is because Blizzard liked the model of G'huun and chose to use it again.
Oh really? That's disappointing.
@@thedreadexpanse3817 I mean you have to think, they can't come up with brand new skeletons for new creatures for each expansion, that would take a lot of time and money. So reskinning existing skeletons makes it easy to make things look new but with less invested into it.
So lorewise it's possible the Gorm and the Devourer mites and other creatures that resemble others we've seen might not actually look those ways. Or it could be that it's a base blueprint that First Ones established so these type of creatures appear all over the Cosmos in one way or another. It's really hard to say.
Remember that one of Mueh'zala's titles is Son of Time.
True. I completely forgot about that. And now that I think about and the confirmation we have about what time is related to... that makes Meuh'zala even more of an enigma.
@@thedreadexpanse3817 Yeah, I still don't think he was originally a Loa him Jani and the Loa that were Trolls that ascended all speak like Trolls. All of the other Loa do not speak like this, even the ones that are more old school like Hi'reek and Kimbul. Even Hakkar doesn't speak like a Troll. Only Zanza, Bwonsamdi, Mueh'zala, and Jani seem to be the only Loa that speak like how the Trolls do.
Lhok really likes wolves? I would have never guessed that.
hahahahahaaha Shh Gizmo tis my very publicly known secret >.>
@@lhokvalkenhayn9703 lol
Great vid.
Aaaaaaaaaa, highlight of my youtube experience has posted!!
Interesting there is a mythical creature called an enfield because that is a Brittish firearms company from WWII.
Blood magic is just tortured life magic and can likely be used by all cosmic forces
I am starting to think Azeroth was a First One that was possibly locked away inside a planet for some reason or another.
I honestly think that Azeroth is a titan that houses a First One inside her. Similarly to how the keepers housed the remnants of titanic spirits inside of them.
@@shadowgamer4306 Hmm, that's an interesting idea. I like it.
@@HavocHounds1988 I mean this can also explain why Azeroth is considered to be the most powerful Titan.
@@shadowgamer4306 Yep, my thought of her being a First One could also, but this idea makes a lot of sense too. My theory has the issue that if she is a First One would she still dream like a Titan, and therefore would the Titans be able to even mix that up? But this idea they could easily get fooled but also be right.
There is way too many connections between the SLs and Azeroth. Not just Bwonsambi, Mueh'zala and the Trolls and some became Night Elves, but the Mogu, Mantid, and Aqir. Also, the connection between the Keepers, the Valarjar and the Vrykul or undead Vargul not to mention Helya is the SLs, and the Vargul in Torghast. You also mentioned Uldaman and the Discs of Norgannon and a few of the systems of control over Azeroth connected to the Forge of Wills and the Chamber of the Heart which were powered like a lazer to destroy N'zoth, bunch of BS anyway and not real imo. What about the other ones, Uldaman of course, Uldum, Ulduar, and Uldir were dealt with so to speak. Uldis in the Storm Peaks and also Uldorus and Uldazi, which are only mentioned in Chronicle and by the Maiden of Vitality. How many of these Uld Forges, Systems of Control are there and were they all originated by the Titans.
sweet
Their could be many other troll like deities, but that mask could be for Samedi?
first comment :P