GeekZone I think it can fit quite nicely into the cannon and is a fitting ending for the great tale of Arda. A collaboration for an illustrated version of Dagor Dagorath would be amazing what do you think?
Tolkien wanted to create a mythology. So I think, Dagor Dagorath was the end of Arda and the beginning of our world. Also the continents fit. And Tolkien was inspired by north mythology. So in this theory these are storys left over from Arda in our world.
I suspect we would see Numenorians on both sides. The implication seems to be that they will return and be free to choose which they will support, but as they are creatures with free will, I do not believe all would go one way, or the other.
Yeah, the "Sit in the corner and think about what you've done" approach can only work on some people, not all of them. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Men were explicitly stated to be capable of both great Good and just as terrible Evil.
GeekZone honestly I’ve always expected his turnaround. at the End of Things he knew what he must do and he did so because he truly was honourable. his recalcitrance was simply pride and I think he always intended to comply. great channel, btw!
He should be unceasingly flogged then stapled to the prow of Vingelot, just out of reach of his precious Silmaril, as a shining example to the Elves for all time.
@@k3vinhayne It seems like his heart was always in the right place, it's just that he put too much of it in his works or something. Like maybe he felt his personal worth was tied to how good his creations could be?
Just imagine when everything is over, and then Manwe or Eru asks: "Now, who was guarding Morgoth!?" I know those guards wouldn't have a great time. Did they get drunk or something:)
I think it would be a weird movie. It would have to focus on the power brokers of the war (Vala), who would be unrelatable characters, much more so than elves,. The alternative this would be it would have to focus on peons; which would resemble a Godzilla movie. The ladder would probably work better because how would an audience relate to a timeless being that helped create the world?
@@Akechi910 From what I've heard, Morgoth will face off against several mighty forces in this battle. He will begin the battle as an overworldly force, (I imagine that he will be similar to Zamasu at the end of his arc in dragon ball super, although far more terrible,a massive black cloud bearing his image covering the world and laying waste to everything within it). But Earendil will sail once again upon the devine ship Vingilote and filled with vengeance for Morgoth destroying the sun and the moon that he so dearly loved,will banish Morgoth from the heavens. Once he is on the ground, he will take on a massive mountain sized form, as he did in the Valian years, and he will be enraptured with anger seeking out his enemies, with the mighty Tulkas meeting his charge. After another titanic struggle, Morgoth is wrestled to the ground, however, his dark magic has taken its toll on Tulkas, forcing the Valar to retreat. Banished to a form slightly larger than an elf, and most of his godly powers expended, his heart is gripped with fear and he attempts to flee the battle. He is halted by Turin, who sought vengeance for the evil done to his house and all the races of Arda. He will attempt to sway the human to join him, but will fail and Morgoth will wield his hammer and shield one last time in a fight to the death. After this clash, Turin will pierce the dark lords heart with his black sword, ending him once and for all. I think that the only way for Morgoth to be defeated is for the children of Illuvitar to work together. The different aspects of Morgoth will be fought and bested by the champions of each race, his prideful spirit form will be overcome by Earendil of the Noldor, his hate filled mountain sized tyrant form by Tulkas of the Valar, and his pathetic crippled form by Turin of the edain. While some versions say that Eonwe will be the one that kills Morgoth, I personally believe that he is going to be occupied more with a returned Sauron or maybe Gothmog, since all the evil creatures will be revived and follow Morgoth.
@@GeekZoneMT, also the Norse myths of Ragnorak. Dagor Dagorath is a weird combo of Norse pagan traditions and Christian ones; Ragnorak and Armageddon. I think is works very well. The anthropologist in me is intrigued by the similarities between the two myths. There is something about it that calls to us as humans and thus gives the legendarium of Middle Earth a special kind of significance. It feels real because it's based on our own myths and traditions.
I agree with silver wolf. Some of the parts that are in this vid about dagor dagorath are tracable to the bible book of revelations. The fact that the devil (melkor) get to full power, that a lot of the world and its people will be damaged, that a human will from death, jezus became human, died at the cross, and came back to life, then lifted up to the heavens and will come back in the future, then the devil will be forever defeated and the world as we know will be renewed and there will be forever peace
@@MarkGlowInTheDark not devil. It'll be Antichrist who'll be defeated. So his followers will be. (Maybe the evil elites). I wish I would see that in my own eyes.
You bible thumpers think the world revolves around you. There is no final battle in Revelations. The armies just gather at Megido and the forces of good just win. This is Ragnarok, which is a much older legend with European origins.
@Exar kun Castillo I only hate myths people still believe. The rest are interesting stories. You can read about Ragnarok and see that the events in it are closer to Dagor Dagorath than to the battle of Armageddon. The most obvious difference is that there is no final battle in the bible. The armies show up on the battlefield and the good guys automatically win.
Seeing how men are seen as closest to Eru than even elves, and the numenoreans as the best of them all, I believe it as a prophecy that can come into existence but as you stated, an unknown date
The Mouth of Sauron maybe lived and carried Sauron's legacy explained here - www.minds.com/groups/profile/1073597760822353920/feed?referrer=svrak Actually The Mouth is quite ancient and I think it is possible that he is Sauron's son from a numenor princess - see Melian & Luthien :)
@@MrTrakiiski doubt as his origins are from what few hints we have, very much of any soldier but due to his malice in combat and his natural ability to sway people with words allowed him to rise the ranks and sauron became impressed.
@@GeekZoneMT the nine, the seven, and the three, were all created before the one ring and gave thier owners enhanced abilities. So even after the one ring was destroyed why would they suddenly stop working?
I too think that the Elves will have a place in the new Arda. Eru loved them, being his first Children and Arda is where they awoke. Some would be allowed to stay even as they faded. If they were so much apart of the first Arda, why would Eru exclude them from the second?
Soft hearts can't speak truths mellonin. Destiny of First and Second always differed, since Manfolk had to die the death in order to prepare them for the New Song of Creation.
You made my day, i've been waiting for this video so long . . . it's like Ragnarök, The end of days. Tolkien did use mythological expressions perfectly. GREAT VIDEO.
I've never been a big fan of Dagor Dagorath; by the end of the Third Age, the named evils of the world are gone. Sauron is defeated, and permanently weakened, as the Ring was destroyed. Melkor is still trapped beyond the world. Into the Fourth Age, Man rises in prominence, as Elves depart the world, and Dwarves, Hobbits, and other magical races dwindle and vanish. Once the Fourth Age is in swing, and the last of the ships has sailed west, there is no connection to Valinor, or anything that will happen there. It would seem pointless to conduct the Fourth Age, where only Men remain, and do as they will, just to end it with "and the other races come back, and Morgoth returns. He has another massive army because he's proven to be crap in combat, personally, and even as most of the evil is gone, someone serves him." Then the world, and all Man did without the others, is just erased anyway, as if none of it mattered, and the second version has a restart. By that logic, Eru should've pushed Ctrl+Alt+Delete a long time ago, if nothing that happens in this world will matter.
We have to remember that the corruption still existed, and Eru - being the literal creator of time and everything - had plans that spanned outside the confines of time.
The evil of Morgoth would remain forever, since he 'tainted' Arda with his corruption. Hence the analogy, Arda was to Morgoth what the One Ring was to Sauron. The only way to cleanse it is a 'end of the world'. Though I agree that Eru could have set this plan in motion a long time ago, but you know, the reasoning of God is far beyond our understanding.
While it may seem pointless, multiple “cycles” of a world does have precedence in fiction and mythology. After all, in the beginning of the Silmarillion, Eru tells the various spirits that just completed the song that they can descend into the world, but they must stay until that world plays to its end. All the end time prophecy does is imply that when the world inevitably ends, far in the future, the original source evil of the current world, Melkor, will return and be destroyed once and for all, and that his taint and corruption would finally be cleansed from creation when the old world gave way to the new one, and then all the beings of the old world would get to live in the perfect new world that was always meant to be before Melkor corrupted the current one.
@Samuel Dimmock I see it more as Numenorian wish fulfillment, as the prophecy supposedly originates with them (the elves don’t have an end times prophecy, the know the world is finite and that’s it). It would be both the redemption and retribution for all that happened to mankind because of Melkor (Turin returning to avenge his family, the Numenorian fleet rising from the water to redeem themselves, etc.) The fact that this could possibly be traced to right after the fall of Numenor is what makes the existence of the prophecy so appealing to me, in a certain context. What I like about the idea of the prophecy is that it’s not obviously true or false. It’s a prophecy, not a history. It has multiple different versions that contradict each other and sometimes contradict history. I know that Tolkien didn’t finish it and sort of scrapped it, but in the messy state it was left in, it FEELS like it could just be a construct of the descendants of Numenor’s wishful thinking, but with how much truth to it? Is it a true prophecy? Is it largely myth, but is actually based on some legitimate information the Numenorians gleaned from their brief contact with the Valar? Or is it just a complete fantasy thought up by a then-downtrodden group of refugees of a recently-fallen civilization looking for hope in the future? I don’t consider it to be canon as the *definitive* end of Tolkien’s world, but as an end-times myth held by some of the cultures in his world. The bulk of Tolkien’s legendarium is told as a history, in past tense, and what is told is definite and recorded (except the few mysteries that Tolkien let remain lost to time, such as Bombadil and the Entwives). Therefore, I don’t think it would be fitting to know something that is set in the future of his world, from the perspective of the reader, in the same way we know definitive recorded history. Rather, having an uncertain, heavily mythologized but possibly somewhat truthful “prophecy” with various slightly differing versions, that some believe and some don’t, is a nice “end” to Tolkien’s story for me. We read most of Tolkien’s work as histories of this world, sort of from the perspective of looking back from the Fourth Age where the history catches up to us and stops, but what is next after that? The future is unclear. We can only know as much as the people inhabiting his world do: a mythological prophecy of not-completely-known origin, that gives us hints at what *might* happen in the future, rather than a definitive confirmation of what *will* happen. That’s at least how I manage to consider it canon, I think the uncertainty of it adds perspective and makes the me feel more immersed in the world, in a sort of meta way of someone in the Fourth Age, reading history from the Bible-like creation story of the world, into recorded ancient history passed down by the Elves who lived it, and into the event recorded history of Man, ending by pondering the possible future but not knowing for sure.
@Samuel Dimmock The discussion Eru has with Ulmo also explains this very same thing: Don't worry about Melkor being petulant because check some of his crazy has done: pretty cool stuff that not any of us thought of. And Ulmo acknowledges and realizes why Eru allows the petulant behavior be, that in the end it serves to make things more wonderful. This doesn't mean that such impudence should be without consequences and immediate intervention and ceasing: Eru does this 3 times in the music, and allows it Melkor to be chained twice, and personally sinks the Island of Númenor. So if it gets to out of hand, as situations have occurred, intervention can be taken, but only sparingly. "And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: ‘Seest thou not how here in this little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province? He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint, and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea. Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists; and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou artdrawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.’ Then Ulmo answered: ‘Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!’ And Manwë and Ulmo have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.
I must ask everyone something, including you Carl: how would you all react if Morgoth really did appear and did destroy sun and moon and there was only one Star of Earendil in the sky and all these creatures are actually real, and it ended up that everything Tolkien wrote was real history? No jokes here, a serious question and serious response, please:)
@@GeekZoneMT I would try to help as much as I can, though I doubt I would be a good fighter. If we are gonna be honest, whether I am hiding, or fighting for Valar or Morgoth, I would die either way. But it would be better to die fighting for light than darkness. One thing I am sure: I certainly wouldn't be Middle Earth fan any longer:)
@@X22-p4t Well considering my nonexisting physical abilities... :D I know how to use a bow but to acctually hit target is a different thing. So I would just stay hidden somewhere and stayed out of the way.
Great video and epic thumbnail Karl! BTW, what artist drew the picture at 0.33 of Morgoth? Would love to use it myself :) Really good work at separating earlier and later writings of Tolkien, that's underrated!
Ancalgon and the other dead Morgothrim were very likely brought back by forces of a higher fate, not by Morgoth himself. I doubt strongly he has that kind of power or prerogative. If he can't create life then he most certainly cannot return it to someone dead. Instigating or enabling possession of a corpse by demonic beings doesn't qualify either. Perhaps they were even restored by Eru himself so the end could play out permitting the second music to begin. For example I believe it's either spoken or implied that Sauron would be there, but he was so ruinously undone that only his creator could possibly remake him.
I would say that after being imprisoned in the Void for so long and then somehow escaping would likely have granted Morgoth some kind of extra powers. If we consider Ungoliant, who supposedly came from the Void and was not created by Illuvatar, it seems probable that her power came from the Void. I would think that the greatest of the Ainur, Melkor, could adapt and incorporate the Void just as she did. Just speculation obviously, but I believe that if Morgoth was able to survive that long in the Void, escape, destroy the Sun and Moon, and fight the Valar on top of it all, that he would be capable of resurrection. After all, the dragons and several other evil beings contain slivers of Morgoth himself.
Do you think any of the heroes or villains of the Third or second age, will come back for this battle such Sauron, Saruman, Ar-Pharazon, Aragorn, Gimli, Gandalf, the Ringwraiths, Legolas, Frodo, etc.
It's hard to say since Tolkien never really went into detail on the strength of their armies during the battle. In Ar-Pharazon's case it's confirmed that he would take part and I imagine that it's possible that the Maiar spirits such as Gandalf and the Elves such as Legolas would take part in the battle since they'd probably be living in Valinor by then. :)
Thanks Dylan it really means a lot to me! It's been a real joy to cover the world and history of Arda and I'm incredibly grateful to have such a wonderful community! =)
The elves will definitely play a part in the new Arda. In one of his letters, Tolkien asserts something like: any spirit made of free will, whether in this world or his created one, is indestructible..
Ar Pharazon and his army are still alive, you know. They are just trapped and sleeping under the fallen hills in Valinor but still alive. I agree with your interpretation. I think because Ar Pharazon nearly repented and turned back, and because Eru didnt outright kill him and his entire army, that they will be on the side of good in dagor dagorath. I've thought about this subject before actually lol.
What if, Eonwe (after duelling with Morgoth, but loses) infuses his Fea with Gurthang, which Turin then plunges into Morgoth's heart? Thereby, both would have defeated Morgoth.
@@GeekZoneMT Yes so much in the first age, Oath of Feanor, Flight of the Noldor, Battle of Sudden Flame, Quest of the Silmarils, Ruin of Doriath... etc etc
Terrific video. I quite like to think that the elves were not to part of Eru’s plans after the second music of the Ainur. It makes the lives of the elves more dark and melancholic, and it almost rationalises the race of men’s “gift of mortality”. The gift was that they were to be a part of the new world. I quite like the sombreness and sadness of the elves, it’s gives them so much dimension, like in the lord of the rings how they grew weary of the world and the destruction of the ring meant their magic would die too. It’s a very sad but incredible thought that these immortal and seemingly untouchable beings from the perspective of men, were doomed from the beginning.
Thank's Rukasu! Personally I prefer the characters that are morally gray such as Feanor because I think it''s easier for us to understand them compared to say Morgoth, whose motives were mainly the destruction and eradication of Arda. But each to his own! :)
Can someone please tell me if Dagor Dagorath is canon in Tolkien’s universe? I know that his ideas for it changed over time and then he crossed out the section of there being a second prophecy of Mandos and said that Arda would always be marred. However, there are multiple mentions of the Last Battle and the End of Days and the second music of the Ainur. Do you think this should have been the final chapter in the published Silmarillion?
The Númenórean fleet being trapped until the end of the world is poetic in a way. They got their immortality but were bound to the world without any freedom. They got to experience the downfalls of it and develop the envy for death that the Elves and Valar will experience. I suspect they'd have come around after all that time.
In a way i like that we have different versions of this. It adds a sense of doubt about exactly how it will go and who would participate. It mimics the difference in real myths that have different versions of evets.
Hey Alexandra I'm doing okay! :) I've yet to research the video since it hadn't won the poll, though it's one of the topics that I'm very eager to cover in the near future, and I'm sure it will be a fun challenge!
It HAS to be canon. Galadriel mentioned to Treebeard "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!" It was in Beleriand, which was destroyed in the war of wrath. This combined with the lands under the waves being lifted can only be explained by an earth reborn. She was the wisest of the elves, and believe Tolkien had the concept set in LotR, at least to some extent.
Imagine this as a movie. I think, elves will be part of the new world. I believe either mankind would become immortal either elves would become mortal.
I think it was discussed in the conversation between Finrod and Andreth that the roles of Elves and Men in the new world would reverse, in that the Elves would long for the past (rather than men longing for something else they can't have) and that Men would be content and willing to hear their stories. In that sense their burden of history and memory would become a source of wealth for them.
hey, where did you got the informations about dagor dagarath, for example who killed morgoth? its been a while since i read the silmarillion, and i do not remember much about dagor dagarath. :) Youre videos are great!
Would the Dwarves be included in the Second Music also? Or just the Men and Elves because Eru didn't mean for Dwarves to exist and Aule just said "YOLO"?
Amazing video! I want to ask you and everyone about what they think of this matter So if the mountains of valinor will be leveled and the two tree's light would reach the whole earth, that with knowing that Arda is remade again which means morgoth's influence in it will be removed and so probably the magic that was present in the Eldar days in middle Earth (which was fading in the third and forth age) will go back to be present in all Arda. Now that's a problem for the race of men because as we know, valinor is forbidden for men to enter because there they will become weary and they won't be happy (probably as far as I believe because the the earth is aging as fast as the elves are aging which means it's not aging at all while men age and die and they find no change in the world around them). So what do you think would happen in that case ? Will the race of men be given immortality as gift for helping in the battle ? Give me your opinion please
That's a great question sadek! I think Men would become immortal after the second music of the Ainur, though I think as a metaphysical experience it would go far beyond than what we know of from the First music of Arda :)
@@GeekZoneMT I think you are right, because if men became immortal that means the races of men and elves would become one race all together as the main difference between is removed. Also I think the dwarves will be put to rest after they help Aulë in the remaking of Arda if men become immortal as they won't fit anymore with the main theme of the world. But we still don't know enough about it and it's all thoughts and speculations I wish Tolkien wrote more about the second music
Andy Serkis is doing a live reading of the Hobbit tomorrow, May 8th 2020 @10amBST. This is about 6 am. It's a 12 hour straight through, there and back again! reading. Please let your viewers know. As well as your other channel friends. Also look at his Twitter feed and also his go fund me for charitable giving for this event. He won't release the link until he begins the reading session.
Hey. I wonder if in the aftermath Melkor is going to finally repent (or, in a way, be reformed by Eru) and join the Second Music? After the First Music ended Eru sounded as if he wants Arda to be a visual embodiment of the First Music, so everyone, including Melkor (who was even named by Eru specifically) would learn what the First Music was about. I suspect, it was crucial for everyone to learn that even Melkor's theme has its origin in One. Btw, it is quite typical for a sonata form that in the exposition the First and the Second themes are written in different keys but after their development they would return in the different key, closer to each other in the recapitulation.
@@Crafty_Spirit Sorry, had a busy two weeks. I am a Floyd fan and like quite a chunk (but not all) prog. I mostly follow Spotify offers. Have recently found this interesting channel: th-cam.com/users/rdouglashelveringfeatured There are many prog songs analysed by a classical music composer. And here is the situation reversed: th-cam.com/video/jMq9iEP9Zuk/w-d-xo.html :)
@@someoneno-one7672 Ah you don't owe me a thing, no need to excuse :-) And thanks for the links, these channels seem interesting 🎼🎸 Pink Floyd are great, I saw Roger Waters doing their stuff (not his solo works or solely The Wall) a few years ago. One of my all-time favourites is High Hopes. It's this bittersweet parting kiss, one of their strongest compositions, vocals, and guitar work, and it's the final song on the final album (Endless River doesn't count if you ask me).
I like to believe the Túrin version is canonical as 1 I just like Túrin as a character and 2 I think it wraps it up nicely with him having defeated the Father of Dragons and the greatest of all Dragons, Glauruung and Ancalagon respectively, as well as avenging himself and his sister as well as settling the score his whole race had against Melkor. Furthermore with Elves being superior to Men in almost every way I think there's a nice bit of symbolism in the epitome of tragedy and a member of the race of Men being the one to destroy the biggest enemy Elves ever had
I have a feeling the humans that landed in Valinor were fighting for Morgoth still. Under the Mountain mythos has people sleeping, not contemplating, for when they are needed. It is a means for them to continue their work, not do a 180. Also, the prima causa for Eru's intervention was the Vala crying out, asking not to be the ones to smite the children of Eru. They didn't seem to mind doing so in the War of Wrath against the humans serving Morgoth, but perhaps they just left that to the Elves. I have a feeling they would actually be what made up the main (if not significant) forces of Morgoth. That armada was the largest military force in Arda, save perhaps the forces in the War for the Sake of the Elves/War of Wrath. Orcs were bred and made over time but that military force being uncovered by Morgoth would at least instantly be able to counter any Elven forces, if not more.
Excellent, excellent, excellent. I have waited quite awhile for someone to do a video on Dagor Dagorath. I must apologize upfront because I have a few questions and opinions. First, what's up Manwe? I thought Manwe and Melkor were the top two most powerful of all the Ainur? I mean, Manwe never went head up with Melkor, nor lead the charge against the vile creatures and servants of the "Dark Enemy", unless I missed something entirely . It was always mostly Tulkas and Orome on the battlefields. Wouldn't it be so epic if there was a straight up fair one between Manwe and Melkor? And in my opinion, the Elves will play a pivotal role in Dagor Dagorath. And after Melkor gets put down for good, I think they will return to Middle Earth from the Undying Lands, and serve as liaisons between the Ainur and Men and Dwarfs. And also assist in keeping Arda free of evil.
Great video again. But when did you ever made a video that wasn't great? :-) In my opinion you have the best LOTR channel on TH-cam. In Germany we also have Ardko, who makes very good LOTR stuff too. I would recommend his channel to everyone but unfortunately German is a quite difficult language. ;-) Keep it up!
I now see the Siege of Gondor and the passage between Faramir and Eowyn on the walls of the City as an analogy/simile for the Dagor Dagorath. Just like Minas Tirith sits at the feet of Mindolluin, Valmar sits at the feet of Taniquetil. Just as the forces of evil breach the great Pelennor Wall to attack the City, the forces of Morgoth will breach the Pelori Mountains to attack the city of the gods. The battle of the Pelennor Fields mirrors the battle on the fields of Valinor. Just as the Rohirrim arrive in the nick of time (and/or the Army of the Dead), the forces of the buried Numenoreans of Ar-Pharazon will awake and save Valmar from certain defeat. Just as Eowyn and Merry give a one-two punch to defeat the Lord of the Nazgul, Ëonwë and Turin will give the one-two punch to defeat Morgoth (I guess Gandalf would be Tulkas in this comparison). Just as Faramir was the Steward for the true King of Gondor, Manwë is the Steward of the World holding the throne for Iluvatar. And just as Faramir and Eowyn held their breath watching Mordor for the stroke of doom from atop the Citadel, Manwë and Varda will likewise have their moment of fear and clasped hands from atop Taniquetil...until the final eucatastrophe and blessed relief of victory.
But she now shivered beneath the starry mantle, and she looked northward, above the grey hither lands, into the eye of the cold wind where far away the sky was hard and clear. 'What do you look for, Éowyn?' said Faramir. 'Does not the Black Gate lie yonder?' said she. 'And must he not now be come thither? It is seven days since he rode away.' 'Seven days,' said Faramir. 'But think not ill of me, if I say to you: they have brought me both a joy and a pain that I never thought to know. Joy to see you; but pain, because now the fear and doubt of this evil time are grown dark indeed. Éowyn, I would not have this world end now, or lose so soon what I have found.' 'Lose what you have found, lord?' she answered; but she looked at him gravely and her eyes were kind. 'I know not what in these days you have found that you could lose. But come, my friend, let us not speak of it! Let us not speak at all! I stand upon some dreadful brink, and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet, but whether there is any light behind me I cannot tell. For I cannot turn yet. I wait for some stroke of doom.' 'Yes, we wait for the stroke of doom,' said Faramir. And they said no more; and it seemed to them as they stood upon the wall that the wind died, and the light failed, and the Sun was bleared, and all sounds in the City or in the lands about were hushed: neither wind, nor voice, nor bird-call, nor rustle of leaf, nor their own breath could be heard; the very beating of their hearts was stilled. Time halted. And as they stood so, their hands met and clasped, though they did not know it. And still they waited for they knew not what. Then presently it seemed to them that above the ridges of the distant mountains another vast mountain of darkness rose, towering up like a wave that should engulf the world, and about it lightnings flickered; and then a tremor ran through the earth, and they felt the walls of the City quiver. A sound like a sigh went up from all the lands about them; and their hearts beat suddenly again. 'It reminds me of Númenor,' said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak. 'Of Númenor?' said Éowyn. 'Yes,' said Faramir, 'of the land of Westernesse that foundered, and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.' 'Then you think that the Darkness is coming?' said Éowyn. 'Darkness Unescapable?' And suddenly she drew close to him. 'No,' said Faramir, looking into her face. 'It was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Éowyn, Éowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!' And he stooped and kissed her brow. And so they stood on the walls of the City of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air. And the Shadow departed, and the Sun was unveiled, and light leaped forth; and the waters of Anduin shone like silver, and in all the houses of the City men sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell. And before the Sun had fallen far from the noon out of the East there came a great Eagle flying, and he bore tidings beyond hope from the Lords of the West, crying: Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor, for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever, and the Dark Tower is thrown down. Sing and rejoice, ye people of the Tower of Guard, for your watch hath not been in vain, and the Black Gate is broken, and your King hath passed through, and he is victorious. Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West, for your King shall come again, and he shall dwell among you all the days of your life. And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed, and he shall plant it in the high places, and the City shall be blessed. Sing all ye people! And the people sang in all the ways of the City.
Of course ! :) Though I'm not sure whether I should dedicate an entire video to the history and lineage of Dol Amroth or if it would be better as part of a video on the various regions of Gondor.
I see Dagor Dagorath as being canon as a prophecy, a bit like the various end of the world prophecies that you mentioned, but not absolutely definite in form as it has yet to come to pass. Which raises the question, does Morgoth know that he's due to take a final fall, and if so what would he do about that? As for the elves, I'm inclined to think that in the remade world at least some would live among men, which may well have been Illuvatar's original intention, and not be subject to fading as Morgoth's corruption would have been cleansed.
Actually the Norse myth of Ragnarok does end with the world born anew including the gods. In fact, sometimes Ragnarok is referred to in past tense as though it already happened, because the Norse believed it had already happened multiple times.
I consider Dagor Dagorath canon because it's what Tolkien seemed to want whether it was fully worked out or not, and that's good enough for me. As for the Elves ending in their existence... wha???? This supposition is based on nothingness and is so thin even outer space has more substance per square inch. The Elves were made for Arda and Arda for the Elves, among others. To remove them when you remove Arda marred is as mindless as saying they were created specifically for the coming of Melkor who marred it and must be removed when his corruptions are removed.The ruinous desertion of common sense, while no longer rare in this age, is still mind numbing to behold.
My thoughts on it would be that even with evil defeated it would hardly be fully destroyed. Since that I like to see it for how it mostly is: Light is the caring but slightly naive side of things, the healer, the remaker, and comfort. Darkness is the more relist side of things, the biter but determined, stubborn yet is not in of itself "Evil". I believe with Morgoth's defeat at Dagor Dagorath evil will be extinguished from the new world however the darkness would remain but the people of that world would be wiser to it so that evil would not manifest again. Or for a while because as one said. "Evil always finds a way"
Obviously elves will be a part of this new perfect world. I would love to see legolas as a mighty Prince, thrunduil with his beloved wife, elrond with his wife, marry and pipin dancing, frodo and Sam are happily gossiping. And of course, Gandalf the white with his long wand and white horse travelling. - also Tauriel with kili.(even though it was just a part of the movie)😊
Tolkien often tells the same story twice or more, i.e. the Silmarils and the Ring being too coveted to be allowed to exist; Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien, and Aragorn and Arwen; etc. Ar-Pharazon's fleet reminds me here of the Oathbreakers, so it seems likely that they, too, would redeem themselves.
An amazing video as always thanks Karl 😊👍🏻 Well I've read that Turin would kill Morgoth at the end but never hear that he would challenge Ancalagon as the dragon is so huge and mighty. Eärendil was able to defeat him cuz the Silmaril, so just wondering how Turin would manage to defeat him.
May I have a little request? Would you make a theory/discussion about what would happen if everyone in fellowship (one at the time) was replaced with someone else? For example: What if Legolas did not go. Who would be in fellowship instead and how it would probably turned out? What if Gimli did not go. What if Elrond didn't relent and forbid Pippin and Merry from going? edit: typos
I have a question. According to the Andreth prophecy, turin does he kill the ancalagon in the war of wrath or in dagor dagorath? Is it true that christopher tolkien thinks this prophecy describes the war of wrath?
a repented udun soldier, regains its angelic form, comes out of the shadows, grabs the blackblade, turns into Dakkon Blackblade, and slays morgoth entire influence and being.
What do you guys think would happen to Morgoth? Would Eru make good on his promise and Morgoth would see it was futile and repent, or would he be cast out into the Void again, but can't ever return? Or even what happened to Saruman, like being reduced to a weak spirit, but still around in Arda?
I've always wondered why Fëanor stayed in Halls of Mandos till the end of Arda? If it's a punishment for kinslaying, well then his sons did much worse things so at least them should be there with him? Anyway, even Morgoth was released after 3 ages, surely Fëanor was not worse than Morgoth? Or he simply refused to acknowledge his mistakes and refused resurrection? Very confusing.
The spirits of the Eldar are bound to Ea whereas men are fated to search the void. I suspect the spirits of men would become the new Valar bit more powerful if anything!
@@GeekZoneMT perhaps they would remain in middle,earth remade and men would make a new world where they would function as the new Valar singing a new tune with Eru Iluvatar!
Since Morgoth got his legs hacked off before being cast into the void, does this mean he'll somehow gain new legs from space? Considering also that Ungoliant came from the void, there is no telling what the rogue Valar might encounter in his exile. . . .
I think it is more of a human/numenorian legend that turned into a prophecy. Many numenoreans grew resentfull of the elves after they were denied the gift of imortality despite thier deeds and efforts in the war against morgoth. So it makes sense that those who would not be turned evil but still be dissapointed would invent such a tale wich represents their hope of onetime being not only the heroes saviours whithout whomes support the elves and valar would not be victorious but also finally be credited and rewarded for it by beeing the only ones allowed to sing with the ainu. Over time this would change from numenor-favoratism to human-favoratism as the old bloodlines thinned and men became evan more mortal and distand to the old anciend heroes. Feanors redemption arc i thinc is also fitting since the nomenoreas were closer to the elves than the men we see in lotr. So they could easily see him and his silmarill-stuff as the cause of the war in middleearth. Which would enable the numenoreans and other men to become heroes in the first place but als inflicted much suffering and so he gets a redemtion and is not portraied as evil (as he might have been had this been an elven legend) nor gets much heroic praise as one could give him if one would only look at his achivements in fighting against morgoth. So i think the fait of arda is not bound to the prophecy and its more like in our world where multiple worldending prophecys exist which by neccecity cannot be all true (the world can only die once).
I haven't read those books so far, though I've seen quite a few comments recommending them! Perhaps I'll try and pick them up and give them a read soon :)
I feel like Sauron will come back on morgoth’s side but only temporary and switch to being a good guy and in the end he will redeem himself and take up the previous role that his master did when he was melkor way back. But this is just my opinion.
I feel that he wouldn't. I think that he would try to turn on Morgoth and take control of the army, for no reason other than to gain power. He'd then fail and be most likely killed.
The concept of Ragnarok, do very much represent a remaking of Midgar . Quoting Wotan Allfather in regard to Voluspå "I gave hope to life, while keeping none for me. Ragnarok was downfall of the Gods and monsters, But a new world born from the ashes. it stated that two surviving humans will repopulate the Earth while the remaing gods will meet with each other and do something, like helping with the repopulation of the human race. It reads EXACTLY ! Like Professors Tolkiens Writings. I would like a Geek in or out of the Zone to comment, thank you :)
At the end it only make sense if the elves no longer immortal, because their existence ties to arda which is the reason why they are immortal on the first place.
We dont know if Ragnarok was considered the end or even bad by those of the norse belief. Resarch point out that it may be a transitional phase rather than the end of the world. And this would make it fit Tolkiens final battle.
What are your thoughts on Dagor Dagorath? Do you consider it to be canon? And what do you think happened to the Elves?
GeekZone I think it can fit quite nicely into the cannon and is a fitting ending for the great tale of Arda. A collaboration for an illustrated version of Dagor Dagorath would be amazing what do you think?
Most definitely! Though I'd take an illustrated Silmarillion over it! ;)
I don't know much about Dagor Dagorath but I can almost guarantee there'd be some smug git with a megaphone trying to sell car insurance there 😂
Tolkien wanted to create a mythology. So I think, Dagor Dagorath was the end of Arda and the beginning of our world. Also the continents fit. And Tolkien was inspired by north mythology. So in this theory these are storys left over from Arda in our world.
can you do a video on the history of the Dead Marshes and what happens to it after the Lord of the Rings.
Turin avenging his father and kin, brings joy to my soul.
What about himself? The guy got cursed to marry his own sister! Wouldn’t he want revenge for that?
I suspect we would see Numenorians on both sides. The implication seems to be that they will return and be free to choose which they will support, but as they are creatures with free will, I do not believe all would go one way, or the other.
Yeah, the "Sit in the corner and think about what you've done" approach can only work on some people, not all of them. Not to mention, I'm pretty sure Men were explicitly stated to be capable of both great Good and just as terrible Evil.
might even end up as a civil war,. Let's be honest, that's how it would probably be considering they are of the race of men
Nice that Feanor redeems himself by giving up the Jewels he created.
Yeah I think it's a nice bit of character development for him :)
GeekZone honestly I’ve always expected his turnaround. at the End of Things he knew what he must do and he did so because he truly was honourable. his recalcitrance was simply pride and I think he always intended to comply. great channel, btw!
He should be unceasingly flogged then stapled to the prow of Vingelot, just out of reach of his precious Silmaril, as a shining example to the Elves for all time.
@@k3vinhayne It seems like his heart was always in the right place, it's just that he put too much of it in his works or something. Like maybe he felt his personal worth was tied to how good his creations could be?
The jewels were stolen by Morgoth. Till Beren and Luthien and her hound.
The parallels between Dagor Dagorath and Revelation are undeniable.
Just imagine when everything is over, and then Manwe or Eru asks:
"Now, who was guarding Morgoth!?"
I know those guards wouldn't have a great time. Did they get drunk or something:)
did they got drunk? lmao
Jos jedan srbin u ovo nice
Probably! Was that a reference to the Hobbit or am I noticing unintended things?😂😂
Who else would watch a movie just about Dagor Dagorath
Me.
I would also love a movie made around the war of wrath.
I think it would be a weird movie. It would have to focus on the power brokers of the war (Vala), who would be unrelatable characters, much more so than elves,. The alternative this would be it would have to focus on peons; which would resemble a Godzilla movie. The ladder would probably work better because how would an audience relate to a timeless being that helped create the world?
@@albdamned577
Mads Mikkelsen as Sauron.
@@anubusx Do you have no faith in benedict cumberbatch? lol
Turin vs Melkor is a battle we all waited to see
Watching Tulkas beat him up would be pretty sick also ;)
How the hell a human can defeat a god? I don't think that can be possible.
@@Akechi910 He's not just a man he's a hero.
@@Akechi910 morgoth isn't a god and turin is not regular human either
@@Akechi910 From what I've heard, Morgoth will face off against several mighty forces in this battle.
He will begin the battle as an overworldly force, (I imagine that he will be similar to Zamasu at the end of his arc in dragon ball super, although far more terrible,a massive black cloud bearing his image covering the world and laying waste to everything within it). But Earendil will sail once again upon the devine ship Vingilote and filled with vengeance for Morgoth destroying the sun and the moon that he so dearly loved,will banish Morgoth from the heavens.
Once he is on the ground, he will take on a massive mountain sized form, as he did in the Valian years, and he will be enraptured with anger seeking out his enemies, with the mighty Tulkas meeting his charge. After another titanic struggle, Morgoth is wrestled to the ground, however, his dark magic has taken its toll on Tulkas, forcing the Valar to retreat.
Banished to a form slightly larger than an elf, and most of his godly powers expended, his heart is gripped with fear and he attempts to flee the battle. He is halted by Turin, who sought vengeance for the evil done to his house and all the races of Arda. He will attempt to sway the human to join him, but will fail and Morgoth will wield his hammer and shield one last time in a fight to the death. After this clash, Turin will pierce the dark lords heart with his black sword, ending him once and for all.
I think that the only way for Morgoth to be defeated is for the children of Illuvitar to work together. The different aspects of Morgoth will be fought and bested by the champions of each race, his prideful spirit form will be overcome by Earendil of the Noldor, his hate filled mountain sized tyrant form by Tulkas of the Valar, and his pathetic crippled form by Turin of the edain.
While some versions say that Eonwe will be the one that kills Morgoth, I personally believe that he is going to be occupied more with a returned Sauron or maybe Gothmog, since all the evil creatures will be revived and follow Morgoth.
The world will be remade anew and all will be as should have been. Very biblical.
Yeah I agree, I'm confident that Tolkien's personal faith served as an inspiration behind Dagor Dagorath.
@@GeekZoneMT, also the Norse myths of Ragnorak. Dagor Dagorath is a weird combo of Norse pagan traditions and Christian ones; Ragnorak and Armageddon. I think is works very well. The anthropologist in me is intrigued by the similarities between the two myths. There is something about it that calls to us as humans and thus gives the legendarium of Middle Earth a special kind of significance. It feels real because it's based on our own myths and traditions.
Dagor Dagorath is more or less Tolkiens version of Armageddon in the book of Revelation / Bible.
I agree with silver wolf. Some of the parts that are in this vid about dagor dagorath are tracable to the bible book of revelations. The fact that the devil (melkor) get to full power, that a lot of the world and its people will be damaged, that a human will from death, jezus became human, died at the cross, and came back to life, then lifted up to the heavens and will come back in the future, then the devil will be forever defeated and the world as we know will be renewed and there will be forever peace
@@MarkGlowInTheDark not devil. It'll be Antichrist who'll be defeated. So his followers will be. (Maybe the evil elites).
I wish I would see that in my own eyes.
@@shirazummunira7863 ph i didn't knew the antichrist was a follower of satan instead of satan himself. Thanks for the hint, just learned something new
You bible thumpers think the world revolves around you. There is no final battle in Revelations. The armies just gather at Megido and the forces of good just win.
This is Ragnarok, which is a much older legend with European origins.
@Exar kun Castillo I only hate myths people still believe. The rest are interesting stories.
You can read about Ragnarok and see that the events in it are closer to Dagor Dagorath than to the battle of Armageddon. The most obvious difference is that there is no final battle in the bible. The armies show up on the battlefield and the good guys automatically win.
Seeing how men are seen as closest to Eru than even elves, and the numenoreans as the best of them all, I believe it as a prophecy that can come into existence but as you stated, an unknown date
To quote the popular Siege TH-camr, Marley. “You love to see it mate!”
I'm impressed. Better destruction than what the real world's multilayered doom that nobody can agree with
I wonder what would happen if the witch king lived and carried saurons legacy
Hmmm, I don't think he would have been powerful enough to do much without Sauron since a lot of his power came directly from Sauron's existance.
Yeah I guess
The Mouth of Sauron maybe lived and carried Sauron's legacy explained here - www.minds.com/groups/profile/1073597760822353920/feed?referrer=svrak
Actually The Mouth is quite ancient and I think it is possible that he is Sauron's son from a numenor princess - see Melian & Luthien :)
@@MrTrakiiski doubt as his origins are from what few hints we have, very much of any soldier but due to his malice in combat and his natural ability to sway people with words allowed him to rise the ranks and sauron became impressed.
@@GeekZoneMT the nine, the seven, and the three, were all created before the one ring and gave thier owners enhanced abilities. So even after the one ring was destroyed why would they suddenly stop working?
I think that the elves are still be part of this new world
I hope so! It would certainly be a pity if they had to fade completely from the future of Arda Healed.
GeekZone It would be a pity if they faded they have also been through enough through all the ages up until the time of men
I too think that the Elves will have a place in the new Arda. Eru loved them, being his first Children and Arda is where they awoke. Some would be allowed to stay even as they faded. If they were so much apart of the first Arda, why would Eru exclude them from the second?
Soft hearts can't speak truths mellonin.
Destiny of First and Second always differed, since Manfolk had to die the death in order to prepare them for the New Song of Creation.
Elves in the New age is non canon they are in tol erresëa (sp?) in the undying lands. The age of Man is come.
You made my day, i've been waiting for this video so long . . . it's like Ragnarök, The end of days.
Tolkien did use mythological expressions perfectly.
GREAT VIDEO.
I'm glad I could help buddy! I hope it reached your expectations :)
I've never been a big fan of Dagor Dagorath; by the end of the Third Age, the named evils of the world are gone. Sauron is defeated, and permanently weakened, as the Ring was destroyed. Melkor is still trapped beyond the world. Into the Fourth Age, Man rises in prominence, as Elves depart the world, and Dwarves, Hobbits, and other magical races dwindle and vanish. Once the Fourth Age is in swing, and the last of the ships has sailed west, there is no connection to Valinor, or anything that will happen there. It would seem pointless to conduct the Fourth Age, where only Men remain, and do as they will, just to end it with "and the other races come back, and Morgoth returns. He has another massive army because he's proven to be crap in combat, personally, and even as most of the evil is gone, someone serves him." Then the world, and all Man did without the others, is just erased anyway, as if none of it mattered, and the second version has a restart. By that logic, Eru should've pushed Ctrl+Alt+Delete a long time ago, if nothing that happens in this world will matter.
We have to remember that the corruption still existed, and Eru - being the literal creator of time and everything - had plans that spanned outside the confines of time.
The evil of Morgoth would remain forever, since he 'tainted' Arda with his corruption. Hence the analogy, Arda was to Morgoth what the One Ring was to Sauron. The only way to cleanse it is a 'end of the world'. Though I agree that Eru could have set this plan in motion a long time ago, but you know, the reasoning of God is far beyond our understanding.
While it may seem pointless, multiple “cycles” of a world does have precedence in fiction and mythology. After all, in the beginning of the Silmarillion, Eru tells the various spirits that just completed the song that they can descend into the world, but they must stay until that world plays to its end.
All the end time prophecy does is imply that when the world inevitably ends, far in the future, the original source evil of the current world, Melkor, will return and be destroyed once and for all, and that his taint and corruption would finally be cleansed from creation when the old world gave way to the new one, and then all the beings of the old world would get to live in the perfect new world that was always meant to be before Melkor corrupted the current one.
@Samuel Dimmock I see it more as Numenorian wish fulfillment, as the prophecy supposedly originates with them (the elves don’t have an end times prophecy, the know the world is finite and that’s it). It would be both the redemption and retribution for all that happened to mankind because of Melkor (Turin returning to avenge his family, the Numenorian fleet rising from the water to redeem themselves, etc.) The fact that this could possibly be traced to right after the fall of Numenor is what makes the existence of the prophecy so appealing to me, in a certain context.
What I like about the idea of the prophecy is that it’s not obviously true or false. It’s a prophecy, not a history. It has multiple different versions that contradict each other and sometimes contradict history. I know that Tolkien didn’t finish it and sort of scrapped it, but in the messy state it was left in, it FEELS like it could just be a construct of the descendants of Numenor’s wishful thinking, but with how much truth to it? Is it a true prophecy? Is it largely myth, but is actually based on some legitimate information the Numenorians gleaned from their brief contact with the Valar? Or is it just a complete fantasy thought up by a then-downtrodden group of refugees of a recently-fallen civilization looking for hope in the future?
I don’t consider it to be canon as the *definitive* end of Tolkien’s world, but as an end-times myth held by some of the cultures in his world. The bulk of Tolkien’s legendarium is told as a history, in past tense, and what is told is definite and recorded (except the few mysteries that Tolkien let remain lost to time, such as Bombadil and the Entwives). Therefore, I don’t think it would be fitting to know something that is set in the future of his world, from the perspective of the reader, in the same way we know definitive recorded history.
Rather, having an uncertain, heavily mythologized but possibly somewhat truthful “prophecy” with various slightly differing versions, that some believe and some don’t, is a nice “end” to Tolkien’s story for me. We read most of Tolkien’s work as histories of this world, sort of from the perspective of looking back from the Fourth Age where the history catches up to us and stops, but what is next after that? The future is unclear. We can only know as much as the people inhabiting his world do: a mythological prophecy of not-completely-known origin, that gives us hints at what *might* happen in the future, rather than a definitive confirmation of what *will* happen.
That’s at least how I manage to consider it canon, I think the uncertainty of it adds perspective and makes the me feel more immersed in the world, in a sort of meta way of someone in the Fourth Age, reading history from the Bible-like creation story of the world, into recorded ancient history passed down by the Elves who lived it, and into the event recorded history of Man, ending by pondering the possible future but not knowing for sure.
@Samuel Dimmock
The discussion Eru has with Ulmo also explains this very same thing: Don't worry about Melkor being petulant because check some of his crazy has done: pretty cool stuff that not any of us thought of. And Ulmo acknowledges and realizes why Eru allows the petulant behavior be, that in the end it serves to make things more wonderful.
This doesn't mean that such impudence should be without consequences and immediate intervention and ceasing: Eru does this 3 times in the music, and allows it Melkor to be chained twice, and personally sinks the Island of Númenor.
So if it gets to out of hand, as situations have occurred, intervention can be taken, but only sparingly.
"And Ilúvatar spoke to Ulmo, and said: ‘Seest thou not how here in this
little realm in the Deeps of Time Melkor hath made war upon thy province?
He hath bethought him of bitter cold immoderate, and yet hath not destroyed
the beauty of thy fountains, nor of thy clear pools. Behold the snow, and the
cunning work of frost! Melkor hath devised heats and fire without restraint,
and hath not dried up thy desire nor utterly quelled the music of the sea.
Behold rather the height and glory of the clouds, and the everchanging mists;
and listen to the fall of rain upon the Earth! And in these clouds thou artdrawn nearer to Manwë, thy friend, whom thou lovest.’
Then Ulmo answered: ‘Truly, Water is become now fairer than my heart
imagined, neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all
my music was contained the falling of the rain. I will seek Manwë, that he
and I may make melodies for ever to thy delight!’ And Manwë and Ulmo
have from the beginning been allied, and in all things have served most
faithfully the purpose of Ilúvatar.
I must ask everyone something, including you Carl: how would you all react if Morgoth really did appear and did destroy sun and moon and there was only one Star of Earendil in the sky and all these creatures are actually real, and it ended up that everything Tolkien wrote was real history?
No jokes here, a serious question and serious response, please:)
I would be scared as hell but also incredibly excited. :D
@@lirenalaria7707 Would you fall to Morgoth's lies of promise of power or fight beside the Valar?:)
Realistically I'd probably be cowering in the dark somewhere till it's all over 😂 What about you?
@@GeekZoneMT I would try to help as much as I can, though I doubt I would be a good fighter. If we are gonna be honest, whether I am hiding, or fighting for Valar or Morgoth, I would die either way. But it would be better to die fighting for light than darkness. One thing I am sure: I certainly wouldn't be Middle Earth fan any longer:)
@@X22-p4t Well considering my nonexisting physical abilities... :D I know how to use a bow but to acctually hit target is a different thing. So I would just stay hidden somewhere and stayed out of the way.
This is awesome man!! I have been waiting for a video on Dagor Dagorath. Your channel is great.
Great video and epic thumbnail Karl! BTW, what artist drew the picture at 0.33 of Morgoth? Would love to use it myself :) Really good work at separating earlier and later writings of Tolkien, that's underrated!
Thanks buddy! It's drawn by Melkorts4, I'll send it to you over discord :)
@@GeekZoneMT Awesome :)
Ancalgon and the other dead Morgothrim were very likely brought back by forces of a higher fate, not by Morgoth himself. I doubt strongly he has that kind of power or prerogative. If he can't create life then he most certainly cannot return it to someone dead. Instigating or enabling possession of a corpse by demonic beings doesn't qualify either. Perhaps they were even restored by Eru himself so the end could play out permitting the second music to begin. For example I believe it's either spoken or implied that Sauron would be there, but he was so ruinously undone that only his creator could possibly remake him.
I would say that after being imprisoned in the Void for so long and then somehow escaping would likely have granted Morgoth some kind of extra powers. If we consider Ungoliant, who supposedly came from the Void and was not created by Illuvatar, it seems probable that her power came from the Void. I would think that the greatest of the Ainur, Melkor, could adapt and incorporate the Void just as she did. Just speculation obviously, but I believe that if Morgoth was able to survive that long in the Void, escape, destroy the Sun and Moon, and fight the Valar on top of it all, that he would be capable of resurrection. After all, the dragons and several other evil beings contain slivers of Morgoth himself.
i feel like i know your voice better than my own friends’ and can tell when you sound even a bit different. great vid!
Do you think any of the heroes or villains of the Third or second age, will come back for this battle such Sauron, Saruman, Ar-Pharazon, Aragorn, Gimli, Gandalf, the Ringwraiths, Legolas, Frodo, etc.
It's hard to say since Tolkien never really went into detail on the strength of their armies during the battle. In Ar-Pharazon's case it's confirmed that he would take part and I imagine that it's possible that the Maiar spirits such as Gandalf and the Elves such as Legolas would take part in the battle since they'd probably be living in Valinor by then. :)
Definetly anyone from the fellowship as they would be in Valinor
@@GeekZoneMT For which side do you think Saruman would fight?
I'm absolutely, 110% sure Sauron would return
Frodo is trash why would he be there? To watch the view?
Another great video. Love your work and I’m very happy to be apart of your Patrion!
Thanks Dylan it really means a lot to me! It's been a real joy to cover the world and history of Arda and I'm incredibly grateful to have such a wonderful community! =)
The elves will definitely play a part in the new Arda. In one of his letters, Tolkien asserts something like: any spirit made of free will, whether in this world or his created one, is indestructible..
Great video. Thank you for the time you put into creating these videos and the passion to share it with others
Thanks Miroslav! It's the least I could do for such a wonderful community :) Thank you for being a part of it!
Ar Pharazon and his army are still alive, you know. They are just trapped and sleeping under the fallen hills in Valinor but still alive. I agree with your interpretation. I think because Ar Pharazon nearly repented and turned back, and because Eru didnt outright kill him and his entire army, that they will be on the side of good in dagor dagorath. I've thought about this subject before actually lol.
oh MY gosh!!!! Dagor Dagorath!!!! wow. Thank you very much for another awesome video mate!!!!
You're welcome Maureen, I'm glad you enjoyed it :D
I consider it canonical, yes....would love to see Eonwe and Turin with the Blacksword dealing the final blow to Morgoth. Great video!
What if, Eonwe (after duelling with Morgoth, but loses) infuses his Fea with Gurthang, which Turin then plunges into Morgoth's heart? Thereby, both would have defeated Morgoth.
@@KingOfSciliy
Ainur's spirits are called ëalar.
Their physical body is called fanar.
Great video! You should do lore videos for the Battle of Unnumbered Tears and the Fall of Gondolin.
Yeah I'm hoping to cover more of the First Age soon! :)
@@GeekZoneMT Yes so much in the first age, Oath of Feanor, Flight of the Noldor, Battle of Sudden Flame, Quest of the Silmarils, Ruin of Doriath... etc etc
I love your video's man....never stop making them!
Terrific video. I quite like to think that the elves were not to part of Eru’s plans after the second music of the Ainur. It makes the lives of the elves more dark and melancholic, and it almost rationalises the race of men’s “gift of mortality”. The gift was that they were to be a part of the new world. I quite like the sombreness and sadness of the elves, it’s gives them so much dimension, like in the lord of the rings how they grew weary of the world and the destruction of the ring meant their magic would die too. It’s a very sad but incredible thought that these immortal and seemingly untouchable beings from the perspective of men, were doomed from the beginning.
It's nice to listen to your videos before sleep. In this final battle I'd support Morgoth, because I'm always into dark, evil characters.
Thank's Rukasu! Personally I prefer the characters that are morally gray such as Feanor because I think it''s easier for us to understand them compared to say Morgoth, whose motives were mainly the destruction and eradication of Arda. But each to his own! :)
Sauron is more badass than Morgoth in the end.
CG Scar vs 2D Scar
Can someone please tell me if Dagor Dagorath is canon in Tolkien’s universe? I know that his ideas for it changed over time and then he crossed out the section of there being a second prophecy of Mandos and said that Arda would always be marred. However, there are multiple mentions of the Last Battle and the End of Days and the second music of the Ainur. Do you think this should have been the final chapter in the published Silmarillion?
Personally I think it's canon and I would have preferred if it was included in the Silmarillion :)
The Númenórean fleet being trapped until the end of the world is poetic in a way. They got their immortality but were bound to the world without any freedom. They got to experience the downfalls of it and develop the envy for death that the Elves and Valar will experience. I suspect they'd have come around after all that time.
In a way i like that we have different versions of this. It adds a sense of doubt about exactly how it will go and who would participate. It mimics the difference in real myths that have different versions of evets.
I imagine the elfs would be reborn, made greater, like all children of Illuvatar would once the second music was completed.
If they made this a movie trilogy or however many it takes and they got it perfect holly cow this would be the greatest epic ever
Hello again Karl!are You doing well? :-) nice video btw. Also just a quick question, any luck With The numbers of gondor during the third age? :-)
Hey Alexandra I'm doing okay! :) I've yet to research the video since it hadn't won the poll, though it's one of the topics that I'm very eager to cover in the near future, and I'm sure it will be a fun challenge!
It HAS to be canon. Galadriel mentioned to Treebeard "Not in Middle-earth, nor until the lands that lie under the wave are lifted up again. Then in the willow-meads of Tasarinan we may meet in the Spring. Farewell!" It was in Beleriand, which was destroyed in the war of wrath. This combined with the lands under the waves being lifted can only be explained by an earth reborn. She was the wisest of the elves, and believe Tolkien had the concept set in LotR, at least to some extent.
You are correct, it has far more in common with the Bible’s book of Revelation and the creation of a new earth post-judgement than Ragnarok.
Imagine this as a movie. I think, elves will be part of the new world. I believe either mankind would become immortal either elves would become mortal.
Hmm I think both races would become immortal to be honest :)
I think it was discussed in the conversation between Finrod and Andreth that the roles of Elves and Men in the new world would reverse, in that the Elves would long for the past (rather than men longing for something else they can't have) and that Men would be content and willing to hear their stories. In that sense their burden of history and memory would become a source of wealth for them.
hey, where did you got the informations about dagor dagarath, for example who killed morgoth? its been a while since i read the silmarillion, and i do not remember much about dagor dagarath. :)
Youre videos are great!
Would the Dwarves be included in the Second Music also? Or just the Men and Elves because Eru didn't mean for Dwarves to exist and Aule just said "YOLO"?
Eru would never un-make Melkor, so the remnants of Arda would become his new prison with the Dwarves guarding him maybe.
Amazing video!
I want to ask you and everyone about what they think of this matter
So if the mountains of valinor will be leveled and the two tree's light would reach the whole earth, that with knowing that Arda is remade again which means morgoth's influence in it will be removed and so probably the magic that was present in the Eldar days in middle Earth (which was fading in the third and forth age) will go back to be present in all Arda.
Now that's a problem for the race of men because as we know, valinor is forbidden for men to enter because there they will become weary and they won't be happy (probably as far as I believe because the the earth is aging as fast as the elves are aging which means it's not aging at all while men age and die and they find no change in the world around them).
So what do you think would happen in that case ? Will the race of men be given immortality as gift for helping in the battle ? Give me your opinion please
That's a great question sadek! I think Men would become immortal after the second music of the Ainur, though I think as a metaphysical experience it would go far beyond than what we know of from the First music of Arda :)
@@GeekZoneMT I think you are right, because if men became immortal that means the races of men and elves would become one race all together as the main difference between is removed.
Also I think the dwarves will be put to rest after they help Aulë in the remaking of Arda if men become immortal as they won't fit anymore with the main theme of the world.
But we still don't know enough about it and it's all thoughts and speculations
I wish Tolkien wrote more about the second music
Random but I love how Dagor Dagorth sounds. Menacing but beautiful. Great video tho
Yeah, it really captures the finality of it all!
Dagor Dagorath is so DOPE, i hope one day i can it in a BIG SCREEN ❤
Your storytelling is soothing.
I like to think humans themselves would invite the elves and the dwarves to sing with them.
Andy Serkis is doing a live reading of the Hobbit tomorrow, May 8th 2020 @10amBST. This is about 6 am. It's a 12 hour straight through, there and back again! reading. Please let your viewers know. As well as your other channel friends. Also look at his Twitter feed and also his go fund me for charitable giving for this event. He won't release the link until he begins the reading session.
I'll share it on our community page :)
@@GeekZoneMT I hope all enjoyed it. I missed the first 4 chapters cuz I mis-figured the time difference!. Lordy, I need to tighten up!
This guy sounds exactly like the Caspian Report guy
Amazing video as always. have you heard any news on the LOTR amazon series ?
Hey. I wonder if in the aftermath Melkor is going to finally repent (or, in a way, be reformed by Eru) and join the Second Music? After the First Music ended Eru sounded as if he wants Arda to be a visual embodiment of the First Music, so everyone, including Melkor (who was even named by Eru specifically) would learn what the First Music was about. I suspect, it was crucial for everyone to learn that even Melkor's theme has its origin in One. Btw, it is quite typical for a sonata form that in the exposition the First and the Second themes are written in different keys but after their development they would return in the different key, closer to each other in the recapitulation.
I believe you - your profile pic tells me you know music 😉
@@Crafty_Spirit Thank you. I wouldn't say I know but never stop being amused :)
@@someoneno-one7672 I've seen King Crimson in 2019 or so in Vienna :-) Are you a proghead? Some music you'd recommend?
@@Crafty_Spirit Sorry, had a busy two weeks. I am a Floyd fan and like quite a chunk (but not all) prog. I mostly follow Spotify offers. Have recently found this interesting channel: th-cam.com/users/rdouglashelveringfeatured There are many prog songs analysed by a classical music composer. And here is the situation reversed: th-cam.com/video/jMq9iEP9Zuk/w-d-xo.html :)
@@someoneno-one7672 Ah you don't owe me a thing, no need to excuse :-) And thanks for the links, these channels seem interesting 🎼🎸
Pink Floyd are great, I saw Roger Waters doing their stuff (not his solo works or solely The Wall) a few years ago. One of my all-time favourites is High Hopes. It's this bittersweet parting kiss, one of their strongest compositions, vocals, and guitar work, and it's the final song on the final album (Endless River doesn't count if you ask me).
Never really cared about the subject but your narration is fascinating
Really enjoyed the vid
I like to believe the Túrin version is canonical as 1 I just like Túrin as a character and 2 I think it wraps it up nicely with him having defeated the Father of Dragons and the greatest of all Dragons, Glauruung and Ancalagon respectively, as well as avenging himself and his sister as well as settling the score his whole race had against Melkor. Furthermore with Elves being superior to Men in almost every way I think there's a nice bit of symbolism in the epitome of tragedy and a member of the race of Men being the one to destroy the biggest enemy Elves ever had
What has happened to Elrond? Is he still alive during this time? Thank you!
I'd imagine he'd be in the undying lands and so it's possible that he would take up arms with the forces of the Valar! :)
The Silmarillion said that all of the children of Illuvatar would take part in the second music of the Ainur
I have a feeling the humans that landed in Valinor were fighting for Morgoth still. Under the Mountain mythos has people sleeping, not contemplating, for when they are needed. It is a means for them to continue their work, not do a 180. Also, the prima causa for Eru's intervention was the Vala crying out, asking not to be the ones to smite the children of Eru. They didn't seem to mind doing so in the War of Wrath against the humans serving Morgoth, but perhaps they just left that to the Elves. I have a feeling they would actually be what made up the main (if not significant) forces of Morgoth. That armada was the largest military force in Arda, save perhaps the forces in the War for the Sake of the Elves/War of Wrath. Orcs were bred and made over time but that military force being uncovered by Morgoth would at least instantly be able to counter any Elven forces, if not more.
I would like to see the numenorian fleet fight for the valar, i love redemption storys.
Excellent, excellent, excellent. I have waited quite awhile for someone to do a video on Dagor Dagorath. I must apologize upfront because I have a few questions and opinions.
First, what's up Manwe? I thought Manwe and Melkor were the top two most powerful of all the Ainur? I mean, Manwe never went head up with Melkor, nor lead the charge against the vile creatures and servants of the "Dark Enemy", unless I missed something entirely . It was always mostly Tulkas and Orome on the battlefields. Wouldn't it be so epic if there was a straight up fair one between Manwe and Melkor?
And in my opinion, the Elves will play a pivotal role in Dagor Dagorath. And after Melkor gets put down for good, I think they will return to Middle Earth from the Undying Lands, and serve as liaisons between the Ainur and Men and Dwarfs. And also assist in keeping Arda free of evil.
It is the best story telling of Dagor Dagorath on youtube.
Great video again. But when did you ever made a video that wasn't great? :-) In my opinion you have the best LOTR channel on TH-cam. In Germany we also have Ardko, who makes very good LOTR stuff too. I would recommend his channel to everyone but unfortunately German is a quite difficult language. ;-)
Keep it up!
I've been waiting for this topic fo eons!
I now see the Siege of Gondor and the passage between Faramir and Eowyn on the walls of the City as an analogy/simile for the Dagor Dagorath. Just like Minas Tirith sits at the feet of Mindolluin, Valmar sits at the feet of Taniquetil. Just as the forces of evil breach the great Pelennor Wall to attack the City, the forces of Morgoth will breach the Pelori Mountains to attack the city of the gods. The battle of the Pelennor Fields mirrors the battle on the fields of Valinor. Just as the Rohirrim arrive in the nick of time (and/or the Army of the Dead), the forces of the buried Numenoreans of Ar-Pharazon will awake and save Valmar from certain defeat. Just as Eowyn and Merry give a one-two punch to defeat the Lord of the Nazgul, Ëonwë and Turin will give the one-two punch to defeat Morgoth (I guess Gandalf would be Tulkas in this comparison). Just as Faramir was the Steward for the true King of Gondor, Manwë is the Steward of the World holding the throne for Iluvatar. And just as Faramir and Eowyn held their breath watching Mordor for the stroke of doom from atop the Citadel, Manwë and Varda will likewise have their moment of fear and clasped hands from atop Taniquetil...until the final eucatastrophe and blessed relief of victory.
But she now shivered beneath the starry mantle, and she looked northward, above the grey hither lands, into the eye of the cold wind where far away the sky was hard and clear.
'What do you look for, Éowyn?' said Faramir.
'Does not the Black Gate lie yonder?' said she. 'And must he not now be come thither? It is seven days since he rode away.'
'Seven days,' said Faramir. 'But think not ill of me, if I say to you: they have brought me both a joy and a pain that I never thought to know. Joy to see you; but pain, because now the fear and doubt of this evil time are grown dark indeed. Éowyn, I would not have this world end now, or lose so soon what I have found.'
'Lose what you have found, lord?' she answered; but she looked at him gravely and her eyes were kind. 'I know not what in these days you have found that you could lose. But come, my friend, let us not speak of it! Let us not speak at all! I stand upon some dreadful brink, and it is utterly dark in the abyss before my feet, but whether there is any light behind me I cannot tell. For I cannot turn yet. I wait for some stroke of doom.'
'Yes, we wait for the stroke of doom,' said Faramir. And they said no more; and it seemed to them as they stood upon the wall that the wind died, and the light failed, and the Sun was bleared, and all sounds in the City or in the lands about were hushed: neither wind, nor voice, nor bird-call, nor rustle of leaf, nor their own breath could be heard; the very beating of their hearts was stilled. Time halted.
And as they stood so, their hands met and clasped, though they did not know it. And still they waited for they knew not what. Then presently it seemed to them that above the ridges of the distant mountains another vast mountain of darkness rose, towering up like a wave that should engulf the world, and about it lightnings flickered; and then a tremor ran through the earth, and they felt the walls of the City quiver. A sound like a sigh went up from all the lands about them; and their hearts beat suddenly again.
'It reminds me of Númenor,' said Faramir, and wondered to hear himself speak.
'Of Númenor?' said Éowyn.
'Yes,' said Faramir, 'of the land of Westernesse that foundered, and of the great dark wave climbing over the green lands and above the hills, and coming on, darkness unescapable. I often dream of it.'
'Then you think that the Darkness is coming?' said Éowyn. 'Darkness Unescapable?' And suddenly she drew close to him.
'No,' said Faramir, looking into her face. 'It was but a picture in the mind. I do not know what is happening. The reason of my waking mind tells me that great evil has befallen and we stand at the end of days. But my heart says nay; and all my limbs are light, and a hope and joy are come to me that no reason can deny. Éowyn, Éowyn, White Lady of Rohan, in this hour I do not believe that any darkness will endure!' And he stooped and kissed her brow.
And so they stood on the walls of the City of Gondor, and a great wind rose and blew, and their hair, raven and golden, streamed out mingling in the air. And the Shadow departed, and the Sun was unveiled, and light leaped forth; and the waters of Anduin shone like silver, and in all the houses of the City men sang for the joy that welled up in their hearts from what source they could not tell.
And before the Sun had fallen far from the noon out of the East there came a great Eagle flying, and he bore tidings beyond hope from the Lords of the West, crying:
Sing now, ye people of the Tower of Anor,
for the Realm of Sauron is ended for ever,
and the Dark Tower is thrown down.
Sing and rejoice, ye people of the Tower of Guard,
for your watch hath not been in vain,
and the Black Gate is broken,
and your King hath passed through,
and he is victorious.
Sing and be glad, all ye children of the West,
for your King shall come again,
and he shall dwell among you
all the days of your life.
And the Tree that was withered shall be renewed,
and he shall plant it in the high places,
and the City shall be blessed.
Sing all ye people!
And the people sang in all the ways of the City.
Great job!
Dude, these are so great
Thanks Mike, I'm glad you enjoy them mate!
Ohh also i forgot to mention will You be doing a video about the City of dol amroth in the future? :-)
Of course ! :) Though I'm not sure whether I should dedicate an entire video to the history and lineage of Dol Amroth or if it would be better as part of a video on the various regions of Gondor.
I Think You should an entire video on the City of dol amroth because it has quite a bit of history behind it from what i read
I see Dagor Dagorath as being canon as a prophecy, a bit like the various end of the world prophecies that you mentioned, but not absolutely definite in form as it has yet to come to pass. Which raises the question, does Morgoth know that he's due to take a final fall, and if so what would he do about that? As for the elves, I'm inclined to think that in the remade world at least some would live among men, which may well have been Illuvatar's original intention, and not be subject to fading as Morgoth's corruption would have been cleansed.
Actually the Norse myth of Ragnarok does end with the world born anew including the gods. In fact, sometimes Ragnarok is referred to in past tense as though it already happened, because the Norse believed it had already happened multiple times.
I wish they would make a movie on this and that they would stay true to the script which would be fascinating
Love your voice. I'm lisitening to it for meditation
Karl!! My friend!! Great video cool freaking artwork I love it ❤
Thanks buddy!
@@GeekZoneMT your welcome you always respond thanks for that ur probably my favorite TH-cam haha nah you are bro 😂
I consider Dagor Dagorath canon because it's what Tolkien seemed to want whether it was fully worked out or not, and that's good enough for me. As for the Elves ending in their existence... wha???? This supposition is based on nothingness and is so thin even outer space has more substance per square inch. The Elves were made for Arda and Arda for the Elves, among others. To remove them when you remove Arda marred is as mindless as saying they were created specifically for the coming of Melkor who marred it and must be removed when his corruptions are removed.The ruinous desertion of common sense, while no longer rare in this age, is still mind numbing to behold.
My thoughts on it would be that even with evil defeated it would hardly be fully destroyed. Since that I like to see it for how it mostly is:
Light is the caring but slightly naive side of things, the healer, the remaker, and comfort.
Darkness is the more relist side of things, the biter but determined, stubborn yet is not in of itself "Evil".
I believe with Morgoth's defeat at Dagor Dagorath evil will be extinguished from the new world however the darkness would remain but the people of that world would be wiser to it so that evil would not manifest again. Or for a while because as one said.
"Evil always finds a way"
Obviously elves will be a part of this new perfect world. I would love to see legolas as a mighty Prince, thrunduil with his beloved wife, elrond with his wife, marry and pipin dancing, frodo and Sam are happily gossiping. And of course, Gandalf the white with his long wand and white horse travelling.
- also Tauriel with kili.(even though it was just a part of the movie)😊
Poor misunderstood Morgoth, really all he wanted was to outshine eerrbody!!! Literally and figuratively
Tolkien often tells the same story twice or more, i.e. the Silmarils and the Ring being too coveted to be allowed to exist; Thingol and Melian, Beren and Luthien, and Aragorn and Arwen; etc. Ar-Pharazon's fleet reminds me here of the Oathbreakers, so it seems likely that they, too, would redeem themselves.
Great vid
Thanks mate! :)
An amazing video as always thanks Karl 😊👍🏻
Well I've read that Turin would kill Morgoth at the end but never hear that he would challenge Ancalagon as the dragon is so huge and mighty. Eärendil was able to defeat him cuz the Silmaril, so just wondering how Turin would manage to defeat him.
May I have a little request?
Would you make a theory/discussion about what would happen if everyone in fellowship (one at the time) was replaced with someone else?
For example: What if Legolas did not go. Who would be in fellowship instead and how it would probably turned out? What if Gimli did not go. What if Elrond didn't relent and forbid Pippin and Merry from going?
edit: typos
This is not star wars theory
I have a question. According to the Andreth prophecy, turin does he kill the ancalagon in the war of wrath or in dagor dagorath? Is it true that christopher tolkien thinks this prophecy describes the war of wrath?
Probably my favourite part of Tolkien's mythos
a repented udun soldier, regains its angelic form, comes out of the shadows, grabs the blackblade, turns into Dakkon Blackblade, and slays morgoth entire influence and being.
I like to think that both men and elves at the end would be reunited and no longer be sundered
What do you guys think would happen to Morgoth? Would Eru make good on his promise and Morgoth would see it was futile and repent, or would he be cast out into the Void again, but can't ever return? Or even what happened to Saruman, like being reduced to a weak spirit, but still around in Arda?
It would seem Morgoth has been completely destroyed
Me: hears Hollowknight music
Ah I see you are a man of culture
I've always wondered why Fëanor stayed in Halls of Mandos till the end of Arda? If it's a punishment for kinslaying, well then his sons did much worse things so at least them should be there with him? Anyway, even Morgoth was released after 3 ages, surely Fëanor was not worse than Morgoth? Or he simply refused to acknowledge his mistakes and refused resurrection? Very confusing.
The spirits of the Eldar are bound to Ea whereas men are fated to search the void. I suspect the spirits of men would become the new Valar bit more powerful if anything!
Hmm but do you think that the original Valar would cease to be?
@@GeekZoneMT perhaps they would remain in middle,earth remade and men would make a new world where they would function as the new Valar singing a new tune with Eru Iluvatar!
Since Morgoth got his legs hacked off before being cast into the void, does this mean he'll somehow gain new legs from space?
Considering also that Ungoliant came from the void, there is no telling what the rogue Valar might encounter in his exile. . . .
What is the background music at 3:25?
Does that mean Sauron fights with Gil Galad and Elendil all over again? lol
I think it is more of a human/numenorian legend that turned into a prophecy. Many numenoreans grew resentfull of the elves after they were denied the gift of imortality despite thier deeds and efforts in the war against morgoth. So it makes sense that those who would not be turned evil but still be dissapointed would invent such a tale wich represents their hope of onetime being not only the heroes saviours whithout whomes support the elves and valar would not be victorious but also finally be credited and rewarded for it by beeing the only ones allowed to sing with the ainu. Over time this would change from numenor-favoratism to human-favoratism as the old bloodlines thinned and men became evan more mortal and distand to the old anciend heroes. Feanors redemption arc i thinc is also fitting since the nomenoreas were closer to the elves than the men we see in lotr. So they could easily see him and his silmarill-stuff as the cause of the war in middleearth. Which would enable the numenoreans and other men to become heroes in the first place but als inflicted much suffering and so he gets a redemtion and is not portraied as evil (as he might have been had this been an elven legend) nor gets much heroic praise as one could give him if one would only look at his achivements in fighting against morgoth.
So i think the fait of arda is not bound to the prophecy and its more like in our world where multiple worldending prophecys exist which by neccecity cannot be all true (the world can only die once).
Carl, I started reading the Wheel of Time, did you ever read it?
I haven't read those books so far, though I've seen quite a few comments recommending them! Perhaps I'll try and pick them up and give them a read soon :)
@@GeekZoneMT I have read the first book and it's very good, actually. It is not overrated as I thought it will be.
@@X22-p4t Of course in the first book you see quite a few elements which were...erm...inspired by Tolkien...
@@marcbartuschka6372The author said that it was intentional.
I feel like Sauron will come back on morgoth’s side but only temporary and switch to being a good guy and in the end he will redeem himself and take up the previous role that his master did when he was melkor way back.
But this is just my opinion.
I feel that he wouldn't. I think that he would try to turn on Morgoth and take control of the army, for no reason other than to gain power. He'd then fail and be most likely killed.
Navin Davoodi true, there is that possibility.
The concept of Ragnarok, do very much represent a remaking of Midgar
. Quoting Wotan Allfather in regard to Voluspå "I gave hope to life, while keeping none for me. Ragnarok was downfall of the Gods and monsters, But a new world born from the ashes. it stated that two surviving humans will repopulate the Earth while the remaing gods will meet with each other and do something, like helping with the repopulation of the human race. It reads EXACTLY ! Like Professors Tolkiens Writings. I would like a Geek in or out of the Zone to comment, thank you :)
this would make an awesome movie
At the end it only make sense if the elves no longer immortal, because their existence ties to arda which is the reason why they are immortal on the first place.
Do you suppose that the Fellowship of the Ring might be involved in this final battle?
Pls do a history video on baradur
We dont know if Ragnarok was considered the end or even bad by those of the norse belief. Resarch point out that it may be a transitional phase rather than the end of the world. And this would make it fit Tolkiens final battle.