Is Apple trying to fool you into liking spatial audio? A mastering engineer's perspective.
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 12 มิ.ย. 2021
- Apple is claiming that spatial audio is going to transform the way you listen to, and experience music, and be the biggest step forward since stereo... but is it? ... and are they trying to fool you into thinking that it is?
Mastering Engineer Ronan Chris Murphy makes a critical evaluation of Apple's claims and promotions.
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It is strange because my experience with Spatial Audio/Dolby Atmos has been that the audio is actually quieter and I need to turn my volume up more than I do on a stereo track. All the Atmos tracks are much softer but more dynamic, the stereo is excruciatingly loud now in comparison, maybe it’s just the genre I listen to but I believe for the Apple sampler track they may have boosted it on purpose for a more dramatic difference. But in reality at least for me on Atmos tracks they’re quieter but more dynamic, everything sounds more wide and live feeling.
Same here. I found all the spatial audio tracks were quieter compared to their stereo versions. But I really enjoy this spatial audio thing, it’s just taking me to another level of music listening experience!
100%^ this
I toggled atmos on/off on a bunch of different albums and consistently the atmos version was quieter
Yeah the atmos versions are generally quieter, but he‘s not comparing the stereo to the atmos song, he‘s taking both files out of this track right here which is ment as a comparison track:
music.apple.com/ch/album/the-weeknd-from-stereo-to-spatial/1570942447?i=1570942454&l=en
Apple obviously edited the atmos version in there to get that „wow“ effect.
@@mast8082 the comparison track is only there to just give people who have no understanding of the technological differences a basic idea of why there’s a new format that’s being offered.
Tbh reading through the comments, it seems that even people with an interest in audio don’t really understand it. So many comments likening it to a dsp mode. I understand there’s some secret sauce going on for headphones (being a 2 channel format) but the atmos files are proper discreet multichannel files, so if you listen on a multi speaker system you get the proper placement without needing dsp
Keep in mind that my video is specifically addressing the demo that apple made to promote the new feature.
Spatial audio really just sounds like playing music through a home theater system with the hall EQ on
This is the perfect description.
@ Raph E. Yeah....I tend to agree. It doesn't strike me aesthetically as any kind of big ingenuity. I think, "Oh, they boosted level and added some effect, e.g. reverb."
... lets see if we can bring the quality/options up to a whole new level for play back of Apple Hi res music and Tidal Hi res music and push the immersive music into the Dolby Atmos versions of great music artists... how? this time lets take the Apple TV4K and hook it up to the Smyth A16 realiser via HDMI... and for fun lets load a virtual listening room comprised of say a $10K speaker and to make things really interesting lets load 24 of those speakers into a Dolby Atmos virtual listening room with a configuration of 15.1.8... wow, thats $10K x 24 spkrs = $240,000 worth of sound... now lets plug in our favorite headphones... and put on some music.. lets try the Beetles... Sgt Peppers Lonely Heart.... in Dolby Atmos... did I mention that we would be using a set of headphones emulating a speaker setup worth $240,000.... yep and the sound is fantastic.... simply fantastic...
So refreshing when someone with real knowledge and expertise is looking/ listening at that hyped stuff.
That was my thought exactly! Good thinking checking the levels on the demo!
it ain't what the artist and mixers wished you to hear, which says it all! thanks for this
True, but some artists will probably start to mix in this format.
@@sanderhoogeland9161 Well considering that most of what I listen to was mixed decades ago it won't be an issue.
Great analysis Ronan. I miss sitting in on your lectures, etc. All the best.
Thanks for the clarification!
I think after 2 years there are still some things to considered. When Apple released their version Atmos rendering. Spatial audio renders an ADM way different than Amazon Music, which is encoded exactly how it was mixed according to the engineer. (Like you mentioned it at the end of the video).
Apple's Spatial rendering, even after 2 years, provides less of an immersive experience than the actual Dolby rendering that everyone else uses because Apple doesn't use binaural settings, which actually makes Atmos Music in headphones so great!! Apple really needs to fix this. I believe they keep it for head tracking, which is not something the average consumer wants, in my opinion.
Not to mention, there are still a lot of bad mixes out there made by some engineers with a lack of knowledge about the format. I think Apple picked some "meh" kind of mixes to make an example of something that is actually super cool. Abbey Road is really good!!
Thanks Ronan.
Much appreciated. Well reasoned.
this was really interesting to watch, thanks for making this video
A dear friend who is a miso referred me here when I mention this Dolby Amos to him this morning…Thankyou for opening my eyes!! I will most definitely be sharing this video with others!! What an awesome video!!
My big excitement around “the change” was Lossless. I know we can argue all day whether a person can hear the difference between AAC compressed and lossless, but I really REALLY appreciate having the option of hearing the mix exactly as intended when listening at home with quality headphones/DAC and not having to go through AAC compression. When I switched atmos on for several songs; It just felt equalized and “reverb enhanced” to me. Separation also feels muddy bringing me out of the experience. I especially thought the bass was enhanced beyond what I prefer. It’s great to hear a professional describe exactly what I am experiencing. Now I know I’m not crazy :-) I have nothing against EQ, but I want control over changes for my listening environment. I carefully boost bass with an EQ in my listening room to make my old KEF towers sound better (to me) at the lower listening volume my family requires. But I would HATE to have that same change forced on me when listening to my IEMs or Sennheiser headphones. So I’m sure happy Atmos is optional. I’m leaving it off. THANK YOU APPLE for lossless though!!
Afaik ALAC still has about 4x worse decoding performance than FLAC and has no error handling (so good luck verifying that your files are actually intact).
Hi Ronan,
Thanks for this video. Just a few remarks:
Could it be that this "smily EQ curve" is the result of the actual Atmos mix (meaning, in this case, John Hanes added it?)
Or that this is the general way how Spatial audio mixes are treated (I think there was a lengthy article on Pro Tools Expert regarding Atmos mixing where the author mentioned this)?
The rise and mismatch in volume is of course bad from a comparison perspective and I agree totally with that. But the EQ curve, i'm not so sure how much that is "a marketing trick" to make Atmos seem to sound better.
On a more generic note, if this is Spatial Audio, then i'm hearing nothing spatial about it… Sounds to me like a slightly different balanced version of the stereo version but to me, this does not translate at all. Would make a bit of sense in this particular case as I believe John Hanes likes to keep the binaural render more close to the stereo mix than the surround one. But I just played around in Logic Pro's Atmos tool with both object and bed panning. For me it just does not translate the slightest. No matter what setting I use, I cannot solo a vocal and pan it around my head and have it translate like that in binaural (which obviously does work on my discrete surround speaker setup). Let alone the "height" dimension…
Having setup a 7.1.4 Atmos setup at home I was curious to try the logic binaural attempt.
I could not do it on my main machine (Mac Pro 5,1which will not go to Big Sur) so updated my laptop and put it on there. I have to say I was underwhelmed with the whole thing. Maybe if there is a visual aid showing the pan you might perceive some movement. But the main issue I have is that it only really works when things are moving. If you pan a say a kick drum behind you, once its there and stationary it sounds like a phasey mess! I would say as everyone has different ear and head shapes so the effect gets diluted somewhat. Get ready for a year of over panning!
Thank you for making a video on this topic! To me it actually sounded like they boosted the side signal; gaining up the reverb in a way. I was so excited about this Dolby collab, but at least we got lossless to be happy about! 😅
Hi Ronan, you gave a great demonstration! I get it. Thank you!
I'm not really a big fan of these simulated spatial/surround formats for headphones. I'm just not convinced they can create the same satisfying experience that the discrete surround formats do. I actually find them worse than a stereo mix because they just seem to make the whole stereo field kind of diffuse to my ears. I wonder if perhaps these tricks they're using to sell it is a sign they feel the same way.
This was definitely interesting. I kinda felt like the spatial mixes gave really cool separation of elements that you could pick out more. That’s what really makes me interested in this format. Did you hear something different in that respect?
It is my personal opinion is that one could create a great separation between instruments with traditional stereo mixes as well.
thanks for this revealing work.
Thanks very much for all of this!
Are those the raw digital discrete tracks? Isn’t Atoms multi? Channel? I run a 7.2.2 Atmos setup calibrated with Audyssey Multi-EQ, front, 7 = front left, center, right, surround left, right and surround back left, right .2 = dual sub .2 = two in ceiling Atmos height channels. Are all of those channels summed in your 2 channel spatial track? Shouldn’t you look at the waveform of all the tracks? Object based sound is hard to create with a 2 channel setup. So as best as possible I ran a comparison of that same track through my Marantz PM-10/SA-10 in 2 channel (level matched as best possible) same exact system in a 7.2.2 Atmos setup but the PM-10 in HT bypass taking only front left and right sound stage in power amp mode the rest of the processing and decoding was done with my Marantz AVR. I think it was a much better experience with Atmos and I think a big part was the Audyssey room calibration. With 2ch its minimal processing going through the SA-10 DAC straight through to the PM-10 and L/R speakers. Even though I have room treatments and a very good front speakers, actual in room response is not as good as it is after calibration. I have a dedicated 2ch setup with an active-bi amp setup, and will test it out with ARC (anthem room correction).
Thank you Ronan.
Thank you for making this video. I was thinking similar thoughts. It’s nice to see those thoughts in a video that is easy to link to/share on social media. I wonder how many people will turn Spatial audio off.🤔
Check out what John Hanes, who I'm pretty sure did the Atmos mix for The Weeknd's album, has to say about Atmos/the headphone downmix on gearspace.
Pro engineer here as well! I 100% agree with you and totally appreciate the breakdown! Any chance you could allow access to the audio files you used? Google Drive or Dropbox maybe?
Perfect. Just stumbled upon you (oops. Sorry 'bout that).
I also used to engineer, produce etc and put my own Ambient/Trance stuff out (I'm retired now).
It's really great to hear someone rave and rant about the same stuff with virtually the same results.
More power to you!!!
Barty
Thanks
Thanks for that video. Most of the things you said are exactly what I noticed in less technical terms myself. Also, listening to Atmos for prolonged time gave me a headache, but that might have been coincidence.
Good stuff. Subscribed!
I suspect Amazon Music HD boosts the bass too because on one album I’m very familiar with, the bass seemed to be clearer than 320 kbps even though on other blind tested songs on the web I’ve listened to before - I couldn’t tell the difference between 320 kbps vs lossless
Please do comparison between Sennheiser AMBEO vs. Apple spatial audio.
Sounds like apple basically give it an ambiance enhance sound which sound systems had back in the day but people forgot about that effect. Great info spoken from a true sound engineer.
thank you for this
Wouldn’t the frequency response be different if you simulate a room? I guess it wouldn’t boost anything unless you have resonance.
I may have missed where you said…but were you listening on AirPods or were you listening on a full multichannel Dolby Atmos setup, like a 7.2.4, or 9.1.6?
In this I was listening to the binaural in various ways.
@@RonanChrisMurphy I’m just curious, what ways were those? Not sure if there are ways i am unaware of. Thanks.
Great video
Long comment, sorry:
I'm confused as to Apple's rollout of Spatial Audio and system requirements... SA requires Airpods, Beats headphones, or a newer mac with Big Sur installed. So going off of that, I'm under the impression that there is additional processing being taken care of by the playback device to facilitate SA.... So a simple audio-grab of this Marvin Gaye track might not be in actual SA. For what it's worth, I lack knowledge of how SA and virtual-surround works, so I welcome anyone who can enlighten me.
I listened to this SA demo track on Apple music using my partner's Airpods recently and definitely heard a significant difference beyond the loudness and tonality of the track. Maybe there's some phase-relationship trickery going on? I gotta say that Billie Eilish/James Bond song "No Time To Die" sounds pretty neat on Airpods!
Another thing I noticed: When listening to the mono portion of the demo track on my older Mac (NOT compatible with SA), well, it's just not mono. Until I hit the mono button on my monitor controller.
I was about to mention this as well. Chris, I do believe SA requires special hardware like Beats or AirPods to do it’s magic.
@@baseboardmatt Turns out, you can change the Atmos setting on iOS to “Always On” for use with regular headphones or even speakers. I’d expect a similar situation on a Big Sur Mac as well. Interesting how Apple chose to not advertise this on the Atmos info page…
@@baseboardmatt It does not, the apple info says you can use "any headphones." it only needs their headphones to do the auto detection that switches things to Atmos by default automatically.
@@RipleySterling not true. Dolby Atmos isn’t the same thing as SA. Any headphone can do Atmos, but SA requires a late model apple device, or newer Beats or AirPods.
@@rackmountroomba for Atmos, yes. But not for Spatial Audio. That requires AirPods or beats.
You did a really great job on this, thank you. It reminds me of the "ghetto-blasters" in the 80s that offered "ultra-wide" stereo imaging, which was a switch that made everything out of phase.
Noticed the same thing without even listening. I read their email and told myself “this is this BS marketing.”
Will you be upgrading to mix in Atmos?
Not in my own room, at least not for a while.
I’m curious on if you think in the future artists will use spatial audio as a feature of their work
My guess is that it will not really last as a standard, but I love the idea of artists creating new works for the format.
What program is he using for the audio playback?
Apple Music for playback. Pro Tools for analysis.
Wouldn't the spatial mix have different (maybe higher) dynamic amplitude peaks than the stereo mix to emphasize the difference between the instrument/elements?
Mix engineer here (learning atmos 'cause I feel forced to)... binaural mixes are simply hot garbage in my experience. I work with metal, mostly, and it just feels distant, thin and phasey. Absolutely ZERO punch or impact to it. It's wild to me that people seem to prefer this. Stereo is just WAY more powerful to me. I hope the atmos hype cools down, but time will tell. Great vid!
Which MacOS are you on? One needs to have BigSur 11.4+ to enable Spatial Audio.
Up to date on all devices.
Also when I A/B spacial audio on space cowboy by Kacey Musgrave using airpods pro the spatial audio version is significantly quieter
So what do you think about spatial audio / Atmos now a year later?
I think it is an interesting artistic medium, but the way it is being forced on people, and how disrespectful the big companies are being to creators is heartbreaking.
if you listen to dolby atmos on apple music even through nice heapdhones it doesn't actually do anything - it only really works on proper surround speakers or the spatial audio on the airpods
Nice one man ! Holy crap ! Apple is remixing the original ! (probably, with consent buried in the small print of their contract) They should just ask the ARTIST to provide their own Atmos version. Thanks for the explanation. cheers
If I understood Apple correctly they stated that you need a pair of headphones with U/W chip in it (AirPods Gen 1/2, Pro, max or Beats etc) or a Atmos compatible system to be able to use/hear it.
The other thing I noticed is that it’s, like someone els mentioned, not as loud as a none-atmos standard song and definitely lower in volume than Lossless. It’s a mess going from an atmos song at home to a lossless one, feels like 5-10dB in difference, at least...
I felt like that Marvin Gaye spatial one sounded bad when they went from stereo to spatial. I compared some of the spatial tracks with hi res tracks I have when I happened to have the same track in my collection. and the spatial tracks couldn't match the dynamic range of my hi res tracks.
@ 17:00 good point.
Spatial is about surround sound with head and audio source tracking as far as I am concerned. It track your head and phone position to track and maintain audio source while moving your head.
That's when you a play a "spatial" video. They don't do that with spatial audio.
@@shantanukumar3291 they will in iOS 15, but only on airpods of course, because they have sensors for that
Thank you very much. God bless you. Have a good day. Best Regards. Enjoy the sunshine, fresh fruits and vegetables.
I have a question, how did you get the spatial audio version of the song?
I took the binaural feed from the headphone output.
@@RonanChrisMurphy oh! Thanks
It's a lot louder and bassier on Tannoy monitors. Thanks, I thought the spatial audio tracks sounded muddy, know I know why.
I appreciate what you're doing here but it's also worth noting that your EQ'ing of the spatial audio is messing with the HRTF that makes the spatial effect work. If you wanted to compare tracks without messing with the benefits of atmos, try eq'ing the original to match the spatial audio.
Thanks. The most important thing to note is that Apple automated a 6dB crescendo into the transition to the spatial audio mix!!!!!!!!
I spent an evening doing a ton of A/B ing on Apple Music using Gen 2 AirPods Pro and I’ve come to the conclusion that %99 the “Atmos” songs sound almost exactly like the stereo version but just quieter and with head-tracking (which absolutely no one asked for or needs). Disable head-tracking and volume normalization and the stereo tracks beat the Atmos tracks, hands down. This entire thing is a massive marketing gimmick and con perpetrated on the public
A lot of people are having the same experience as you.
Just a quick nitpick: in technical terms, +6dB doesn't double the amount of "energy" (power would be a better term): it doubles the signal level, which means it's *quadrupling* the energy/power.
Thank you for that correction.
I don't like the spatial cut. It does sound wider and more spacious but it loses density, sounds less human (once your loudness and eq matched)
Thanks for your video, howeve, I think the real game changer hear is head tracking with dolby atmos and audio from multi-channel sources (5.1 , 7.1 etc..). Try this with apple TV and airpods 3/pro/max, watching movies is a different story.
We’d need a physicist: Sound energy doubles every 3 deciBels… but sensation doubles every 10dB. Here +6dB… btw MQA is louder ;)… but not lossless.
Apple Music lossless HQ (ie 24bit/192kHz) is truly amazing: Next step is an integrated DAC with Jack outlet?
Just another thing Apple decided we have to have. The spirit of Steve Jobs at its finest.
Spatial Audio and Dolby Atmos are two different things. SA only works on Apple headphones and some Beats models. To really “hear” what is going on you need the decoding hardware on this headphones. For Dolby Atmos I think you can use any headphones, specifically wired ones, like on the Lossless Audio, which need to be wired headphones and through a DAC.
Apple is pushing the feature for users of any headphones, so it is fair to critique it on any headphones.
I would argue that the original stereo version is not really the „vision of the artist” when played on in-ear headphones. The artist or producer probably mixed the song on high-quality stereo speakers in the studio, which is a totally different experience. On Airpods, you will get two isolated channels from that, which is maybe not the best way to recreate it. The way I see Spatial Audio is, they try to fix that problem by placing instruments on a soundstage and simulating the stereo bleed etc. that would occur when listening on speakers in the studio. In this way, I think it can improve the listening experience in most cases.
Almost all of the spatial audio mixes (including the ones I do for clients) are not trying to simulate the experience of listening to stereo playback in speakers, but rather trying to create a completely different experience.
I wonder in which promo Apple states “biggest thing ever since mono to stereo”. I would like to know your source
There’s a Zane Lowe interview with 3 producers where they basically say exactly that. I’m a fan of both Apple and Zane but was disappointed with how they’re going about pushing this technology.
Actually the claims are more hyperbolic than that. th-cam.com/video/92sEs3BkPUo/w-d-xo.html
Hmmm, 3db gain increase actually doubles the audio, not 6db. At least it does with power amps: for every 3db increase, you are doubling the power requirement from your amp. Am I missing something here?
Yes you are. 3dB increase does not equate to twice the volume in human hearing terms.
@@leonhughes2186 Where did I say "volume"? I clearly said doubles the "power requirement"
@@MoreMeRecording Doubles the audio’ is not exactly clear. You did mention power and amps, but what you meant by that wasn’t exactly obvious. . Doubling the ‘power requirement’ could also mean the amount of power drawn by the amp which wouldn’t likely be accurate either and would depend on the design of the the amp. Maybe you mean doubling the power output? I replied based on what I thought you were asking. Sorry for trying to help.
The "modified things" / spatial audio versions were also mixes made by the producers, or so I thought.
Many times they are not.
Hi Ronan!...If I add two ice cubes and a measure of Martini to a glass of fresh water it will make that glass more exciting than just a little water...is it wrong? If it sounds better because it has an added 6 DB and the EQ curve smiles to my ears, then good for me! Let the audiophiles keep listening flat, give me energy!!! in the music!!! volume!!!! treble!!!! and bass!!!! and pass me the second glass of Martini!!!! 🍸🍷🍹🍻
You missed the point of the video.
@@RonanChrisMurphy Simply Dolby did not discover the powder, that's all, we will continue to listen to stereo as 95% of users listen on headphones from their cell phones, I have the option on my Samsung S22 for Dolby Atmos, the sound with Dolby Atmos sounds a little more open ... yes, it is true ... makes any difference to the ears of the end user, absolutely not. Greetings!
I thought tracks released are remixes, right?
Yes.
@@RonanChrisMurphy So theres no point comparing them to previous versions? Or am I missing something?
I like it. I also listened to hundreds of y'all complaining about it.
Yeah, my thought as well. I was like "Woah Zane Lowe, that's just you bumping up the loudness? Are you kidding me? I could do that with a volume, bass and treble knobs"
Dolby Atmos is an object based surround format that enables you to assign an arbitrary number of surround speakers to a given mix. In headphones it would allow you to experience a 3D surround experience provided that the headphones direction is tracked by the DSP. It doesn’t really enhance the mix or master quality as that is established before the surround processing takes place.
I do 100% agree with what you say here. When these Atmos mixes are down-mixed to stereo, they are unimpressive and BS Apple Marketing is always to be taken with a (HUUUGE) grain of salt. I was under the impression however, that Spatial Audio was a feature that comes with the AirPods Pro that included some sort of head tracking and HRTF. Is this not that case? I'd imagine if Apple is combining these two things and using them to interpret object-based Atmos mixes, the effect would be pretty convincing. All of the demos I can find for spatial audio are listening to movies / videos with 5.1 or Atmos and there aren't many who have talked about it at length in Apple Music.
To me, spatial audio degrades the music for me since I have pretty higher end audio headphones. BUT it sounds amazing for movies who support Dolby atmos.
I have no pony in this race, but do you not think that all the EQ and processing is affecting the fidelity of the Spatial tracks? Your EQ curve is going to apply phase shift to the entire mix, thus playing with the panning/center of the spatial tracks. I've also found that if you have to describe to the listener what they should listen for, your are adding an inherent bias. Let the listener listen, and let them decide.
All good points, but the most important thing to focus on is the fact that Apple automated a 6dB crescendo into the transition to Spatial Audio in their demo!!!!!!!!!
Dolby Atmos can be cool, but the cohesion of tracks for more harmonically full productions is not the same as for stereo or mono. Apple’s Spatial Audio seems to not really be much more than head-tracking (which is odd for music, but fine for visuals) and adding a tight room reverb to the whole mix to get some crosstalk between headphones L and R. And as you said, this is not at all what artists are intending. It’s kinda trash.
I think they butchered Marvin Gaye in that demo on the dolby site, and they did some serious bass enhancement on a bunch of the other demos that i didn't like. I think dolby atmos is very cool in theaters, but unless some artist is going to create a very unique and experimental listening experience i don't understand how it has an application in music. This especially rings true when the goal is to extend the use of this technology by mixing it down to stereo.
In the best case, I think that Dolby Atmos music sounds like Dolby Digital concert dvds, but not nearly as good.
What I’ve found with Atmos music is that it’s very very very dependant on how well it’s mixed. The seperation you get from an excellently mixed Atmos track played on a full 9.4.6 Atmos system can’t be touched by the best stereo mixed tracks ever made. Good Stereo is still great, of course. But I’d suggest, if you don’t have one, set up a legitimate Atmos system and have another listen. I agree I think the headphone spatial music shit is complete nonsense. It simply doesn’t make sense that you could create that without like a headphone with an array of drivers or something? I dunno. But one last thing, Atmos mixes across the board, when played through a home theater processor, the volume is always lower than any any other mode of listening. It doesn’t matter if it’s a movie track or a music track, when you’d switch between stereo and Atmos, the Atmos track is always, blatantly, without a doubt at a lower volume. You just have to make up for it with the volume knob, so the idea that Atmos music tracks are universally 6db bumped, is just not true. They may do something with the AirPods that somehow does that, but not if you’re listening on a legit Atmos setup.
You seemed to have missed the point of the video. It was about Apple deliberately manipulating levels to promote ATMOS. I know how to do ATMOS. My last ATMOS mix was Apple's top pick in Apple Music for Spatial Audio the week it was released.
@@RonanChrisMurphy 👍🏻 good job. That’s very, very cool. We are all very, very proud of you.
But I didn’t miss the point of the video. I guess I don’t see it as the mortal sin that it appears you do. So you’re saying that a company manipulated its advertising in the same way that people selling audio anything have manipulated it from the beginning of time?
I’m not exactly sure what I said that invoked such an…interesting response. But way to go buddy! You’re very, very cool.
I don't know how you recorded the atmos example, but it sound nothing like the sound of apple music. I suggest that you hear the actual song (and listen to Spatial Audio Playlist), not that "marketing song". Because SpatialAudio in Apple music has a "room" sound, that i hate. In some songs it sound way better than stereo, and it should, because atmos it's a superior format (not apple's implementation). Check if you activated "Always On" in the Dolby Atmos option inside apple music settings.
Are you suggesting that I not listen to the demonstration by Apple about their new feature. Just listening to the song you would not get to hear that Apple automated a 6dB crescendo into the transition to Spatial Audio in their demo!!!
@@RonanChrisMurphy I agree, that 6dB increase is a very weird way to show the difference, if atmos is so much better, apple should just put the unedited atmos mix. But i'm talking about the difference between the demonstration that apple made and the actual atmos mix of the song, it sounds different. Every song that i listen to in atmos ("including save your tears") sounds way more "open", and that demonstration made by apple does not sound like the actual song in apple music with atmos. But you didn't mentioned other songs in the video, so i thought that you hadn't listened to other songs in atmos.
Consider trying Higher Order Ambisonics with Head Tracking. Different beast. Open Source. Way better. 😊
Interesting; modern music like The Weeknd is compressed and uses synths etc; have you tried testing tracks that have a predominance of “real” instruments, horns. Winds strings , acoustic guitars?
It's bizarrree! A stereo master target is around -9 LUFS int. and a Dolby atmos is strictly -18 LUFS int. So it should be the other way around! You're right, this is cheating!
Good job comparing loudness and EQ butI don't understand why you would compare a Spatial Audio Mix to a Stereo mix in a Stereo DAW setup. You would obviously defeat all the "surround" effect of the spatial Audio when you record it into ProTools via Stereo Analog signal and monitor it in stereo. I agree that the levels and EQ's are misleading and not "equal", but your comparison setup doesn't really show the benefits of Spatial Audio. When truly comparing both it would be fair listening the same track from a stereo source and then in a Spatial Audio source. In such situation, you would actually hear the Stereo source louder since that's the Master that actually was Mastered. The Spatial Audio version is probably several Stereo Stems from the original mix that would not be mastered, and then re-mixed in a Dolby Atmos ProTools session which would probably have some mastering but, not the same as the original stereo track. I find the Spatial Audio mixes a lot more open and clear and not as loud, without the typical Mastering compression and limiting that all Stereo mixes get. One of the big changes going forward will be Music mixed in Dolby Atmos with each instrument and track as a Dolby Atmos element or bed. Right now is the other way around, adapting stereo stems from the final mix to a Dolby Atmos session trying to maintain the original stereo mix concept and sound.
yea I agree this is exactly what I was experiencing
They advertise this as being playable on systems like airpods or Beats devices, or even in standard headphones or monitors, which are stereo only. So "flattening" it into a DAW in stereo seems perfectly fine to me, because we don't support anything else on a hardware level.
@@Derek-lh7hj SA requires a playback decoding in the hardware to allow the delays of the signal in your ears to get the "spatial" perception. When you record that into Protools as an analog signal source you bypass this dsp and capture just a raw stereo signal.
When an SA mix is played on headphones, it is reaching the headphones as an analog stereo mix.
@@RonanChrisMurphy Can you still hear the SA surround effect on regular headphones when the signal is recorded to ProTools?
ReMasterMediaV3D is really the only player in this game because you don't need special expensive headphones or studio gear to decode our immersive audio files. We don't trick people by increasing the volume. Our AI algorithms maintain the dynamic range while enhancing the audio.
... lets see if we can bring the quality/options up to a whole new level for play back of Apple Hi res music and Tidal Hi res music and push the immersive music into the Dolby Atmos versions of great music artists... how? this time lets take the Apple TV4K and hook it up to the Smyth A16 realiser via HDMI... and for fun lets load a virtual listening room comprised of say a $10K speaker and to make things really interesting lets load 24 of those speakers into a Dolby Atmos virtual listening room with a configuration of 15.1.8... wow, thats $10K x 24 spkrs = $240,000 worth of sound... now lets plug in our favorite headphones... and put on some music.. lets try the Beetles... Sgt Peppers Lonely Heart.... in Dolby Atmos... did I mention that we would be using a set of headphones emulating a speaker setup worth $240,000.... yep and the sound is fantastic.... simply fantastic...
Equivocate best plugin ever
This video reminds me of something Miles Davis once nearly said. "When people say they know what they like, they mean they like what they know". Oops. Phil Spencer's aversion to stereo. Apple has fucked up the render for ATMOS. Render me this. Everyones bluetooth speakers sound as mono. Music for headphones has collateral damage. I've seen romantic movies where 2 people share the buds and only ever satisfied with the song.
don't know whats happening, but playing back those files sounded horrible. Al kinds of hick-ups and flutter
I thought you had found subliminal messages, and I thought: "Cool, here we go!" 😆
Ooooo, those slimey salesmen at Apple!
BTW, my OCD wants to thank your hair getting in your eyes all the time... 😁
Covid hair!
@@RonanChrisMurphy 😆
So, when using Apple Music, the difference is actually far more significant than in this video. That is also because the difference is far more significant than it is in the audio guides Apple provided. I do not actually like the difference, as in my opinion spacial audio absolutely destroys the kind of music I listen to, but that is subjective. It does work quite well with things like jazz, but it is just not my thing, just as Jazz is not my thing. Also, in anything other than the audio guides, the spacial audio versions are actually far, and I mean far quieter than the original, To the point where I cannot even use it with my AirPods Max, because then, I might as well not listen to any music at all.
I must say, I love spatial audio, been fascinated by it since the 70s with the SQ quadraphonic on vinyl to the more recent Blu-Ray surround mixes, some are good but some aren’t. But to me, Apple Music’s Dolby Atmos isn’t, it's more like the old Roland's RSS, not so impressive, but I think it’s quite impossible to have great realistic spatial or binaural by using just any headphones. The only system I’ve used that can produce it successfully in my opinion is the Smyth Research A8 Realiser with Audeze headphones, but then it is quite an expensive pro system.
Great, it's only with these scientific tests that you can actually form an objective opinion about this sort of marketing-driven tech. I'd add that the Atmos version sounds a little wider, that would be easily fixed by pushing the stereo image with a little compression or eq or saturation.
and no details when a song is Dolby Atmos… Conversely, frequency & bit rate are detailed when lossless. These latter are better.
Snake oil repackaged. Like you mentioned about how the hifi audio stores would tweak the eq on some of their speaker lines.
Building new gates for old gatekeepers, just remember the people who are selling you this are marketing experts and not audio experts in any way, just remember Bose, universally accepted as crap audio but did they have good marketing, especially in the architectural world, I cannot count the number of commercial facilities that were built with Bose spec PA systems and within days we were brought in with other equipment.
So, a computer and telephone manufacturing company trying to sell you „new audio“ that strangely enough pretty much only (apparently) works with their equipment….B(ring) O(ther) S(ound) E(quipment) all over again. Pay 6 times the price for an inferior result, yup the emperors new clothes maybe.
Immersive does sound great, that is in a studio with the 14 or more highend studio monitors, but then fold this down to two consumer grade earbuds and make believe it’s the same as in the studio, nope, by making it „immersive“ is basically adding reverb effect to make you believe you are listening to the music being played through speakers in a room, so, basically adding ambience and reverb…..haven’t we been doing that for decades anyway.
It’s stunning in the cinema with the visuals but listening to music is not listening to effects, it’s enjoying a song, some of which are implicitly „dry“ to make it seem right in your face and personal, and not in some huge hall or valley, listening to music is listening to songs and melodies, not listening to „rooms“, with music it’s the song first and the „roominess“ is secondary to give the song a frame, with atmos they are reversing the priorities, putting the room first and trying to put the music in there……think about it, when you go to a concert do you stand in a hall with the musicians indiscriminately spread out through the hall? Obviously not, the band are on the stage, this is where the audio sound-stage comes from, left to right, near to far as you look, there’s no musicians behind you, only the room acoustics…..
Their lossless audio is super unfriendly to listen to. Good luck gaining popularity for it!
Yep another gimmick that will come and go - like Holophonics or Q-Sound - not everyone has the space for multiple speakers.
You need AirPods to use spacial audio I believe
No, it works on any headphones, and open headphones, like hd600, focals etc will sound much better
And with that trick Apple took me 9.99 euros.