My calipers show an ESP Benom to have a .860” rim width; compared to .880” for a Force and .840” for a Surge/Punisher/Thrasher/Machete. Nukes are .975” I believe, but it’s been awhile since I measured one. Wraiths are .850” and Destroyers vary quite a bit but are in the .900” to .915” range, for comparison. Boss measures the same as a Nuke- which is PDGS maximum.
They should've just updated the force's numbers, or putt a 4 for the fade on the venom. With that said, a more overstable 12 speed to complement the force sounds nice! I've only ever thrown modern era forces, and I love them.
The speed of a disc should be close to the rim thickness in millimeters minus 10. So for example the Prodigy D Model S is 21 something millimeters, so it definitely shouldn't be a "Speed 13" disc but a speed 11. Measuring the rim thickness with a Vernier caliper has explained why for example my FD flies as far as my Undertaker even though they have a speed difference of two. Undertaker(speed 9) has a rim thickness of ~17,9mm and FD(speed 7) has a rim thickness of ~17,5mm.
The reason flight numbers are inaccurate is because they are derived through a subjective empirical process. The manufacturers go out and throw them and decide the flight numbers by how the disc flies for them. Literally picking the numbers out of the air. For this reason the PDGA does not list flight numbers in their database of accepted discs. They list only the dimensions. If SPEED was based on rim width then why then don't they just call it RIM WIDTH? Why call it SPEED? I've decided that SPEED, is an index to a set of 3 velocities that cause the disc to TURN, GLIDE, and FADE. The issue is that nobody knows what those velocities are. Not even the manufacturers. Here's what I suggest. All reviews of golf discs should include elevation, release velocity, relative spin rate, and air temperature. Then all golfers can measure their release velocity and compare it to the review. Until there's an easy way to measure spin, we'll have to settle for little, some, lots, and max. It is possible to measure spin with specialized setup but release velocity can be easily measured with a radar gun.
Dave thanks for taking the time to have this explanation lined out. This is why there are so many issues with flight numbers, is because everyone has their own definitions of what they are. Personally, I think that the SPEED of the disc should be determined by the rim thickness. Then the rest of the numbers after that are based on the flight of the disc. I mean if we used velocity as our metric, someone like Eagle or Simon would be throwing a putter at 70+ MPH with that radar gun and no one would agree that a Sky God should be a 12-speed, even though they can throw it further than my Cloud breakers with my arm. I want to make it clear, I don't think you are wrong. I just think that a lot of people and even different companies have different ideologies on how they make flight numbers which are confusing to the end user. Specifically with this disc and review my goal was to make sure that, if you were not going to try it because the Nuke felt too big in your hand. That should not rule you out from trying this disc. I am one of those that have small hands and a Nuke is just WAY too big. So this disc was a confusing thing for me to pick up and feel. Then after I threw it, I realized how amazing it was for my bag, but I wouldn't have even thought about it based on the flight numbers if we didn't have a whole bunch come into our shop. :)
@@gemdiscs If "SPEED" is based on rim width, why not just call it Rim Width?" It's all the subjectiveness that causes the confusion. But, If I knew that a certain disc has specific flight characteristics when thrown at a specific release velocity at a specific elevation, then I could determine how it will fly for me at my release velocity. But, the bottom line is, manufactures like the ambiguous specs because they sell more discs. How professional golfers throw discs has nothing to do with determining their standard flight number. When I buy ball golf equipment, I don't think about how it would perform if Tiger Woods used it.
Dude It's everything I wanted out of the force. I love the old runs of forces But they are expensive to replace Also apparently the test flight ones were more stable then these first runs and this first runs bomb But still keep their stability
My calipers show an ESP Benom to have a .860” rim width; compared to .880” for a Force and .840” for a Surge/Punisher/Thrasher/Machete. Nukes are .975” I believe, but it’s been awhile since I measured one. Wraiths are .850” and Destroyers vary quite a bit but are in the .900” to .915” range, for comparison. Boss measures the same as a Nuke- which is PDGS maximum.
The thickness on the edge of the wing makes a difference also. The thinner it is the faster.
How does that work with gyro discs? My 11 and even 9 speed gyro discs have edges that are thinner than my destroyers.
Rim width
They should've just updated the force's numbers, or putt a 4 for the fade on the venom. With that said, a more overstable 12 speed to complement the force sounds nice! I've only ever thrown modern era forces, and I love them.
The speed of a disc should be close to the rim thickness in millimeters minus 10. So for example the Prodigy D Model S is 21 something millimeters, so it definitely shouldn't be a "Speed 13" disc but a speed 11.
Measuring the rim thickness with a Vernier caliper has explained why for example my FD flies as far as my Undertaker even though they have a speed difference of two. Undertaker(speed 9) has a rim thickness of ~17,9mm and FD(speed 7) has a rim thickness of ~17,5mm.
This makes the most since out of any post I have ever read
The reason flight numbers are inaccurate is because they are derived through a subjective empirical process. The manufacturers go out and throw them and decide the flight numbers by how the disc flies for them. Literally picking the numbers out of the air.
For this reason the PDGA does not list flight numbers in their database of accepted discs. They list only the dimensions.
If SPEED was based on rim width then why then don't they just call it RIM WIDTH? Why call it SPEED?
I've decided that SPEED, is an index to a set of 3 velocities that cause the disc to TURN, GLIDE, and FADE. The issue is that nobody knows what those velocities are. Not even the manufacturers.
Here's what I suggest. All reviews of golf discs should include elevation, release velocity, relative spin rate, and air temperature. Then all golfers can measure their release velocity and compare it to the review.
Until there's an easy way to measure spin, we'll have to settle for little, some, lots, and max.
It is possible to measure spin with specialized setup but release velocity can be easily measured with a radar gun.
Dave thanks for taking the time to have this explanation lined out. This is why there are so many issues with flight numbers, is because everyone has their own definitions of what they are.
Personally, I think that the SPEED of the disc should be determined by the rim thickness. Then the rest of the numbers after that are based on the flight of the disc. I mean if we used velocity as our metric, someone like Eagle or Simon would be throwing a putter at 70+ MPH with that radar gun and no one would agree that a Sky God should be a 12-speed, even though they can throw it further than my Cloud breakers with my arm.
I want to make it clear, I don't think you are wrong. I just think that a lot of people and even different companies have different ideologies on how they make flight numbers which are confusing to the end user. Specifically with this disc and review my goal was to make sure that, if you were not going to try it because the Nuke felt too big in your hand. That should not rule you out from trying this disc. I am one of those that have small hands and a Nuke is just WAY too big. So this disc was a confusing thing for me to pick up and feel. Then after I threw it, I realized how amazing it was for my bag, but I wouldn't have even thought about it based on the flight numbers if we didn't have a whole bunch come into our shop. :)
@@gemdiscs If "SPEED" is based on rim width, why not just call it Rim Width?"
It's all the subjectiveness that causes the confusion.
But, If I knew that a certain disc has specific flight characteristics when thrown at a specific release velocity at a specific elevation, then I could determine how it will fly for me at my release velocity.
But, the bottom line is, manufactures like the ambiguous specs because they sell more discs.
How professional golfers throw discs has nothing to do with determining their standard flight number.
When I buy ball golf equipment, I don't think about how it would perform if Tiger Woods used it.
I'm going to check it out
The forces now do not fill the slot they were made to. You can’t find a good force anymore for retail. Really hoping that the venom would fill it
Dude
It's everything I wanted out of the force.
I love the old runs of forces
But they are expensive to replace
Also apparently the test flight ones were more stable then these first runs and this first runs bomb
But still keep their stability
Sad what they did to the Force
The nuke is not a 13 speed. It should be a 15. The venom is completely fine being 13
Thats why I compared it to a Destroyer's PDGA specs, which I feel like most people can agree thats a 12 speed.
The Nuke makes my infant hands hurt
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