You can stop Cell phones and I 100% 1000% agree with you... But you'll never be able to police outside help... but there are different measures of outside help... If you go to the rail to talk to a coach, calm down, etc... Yes that is fine... Obviously you shouldn't be allowed to have a coach on the rail yell out what to do... Call, fold etc... Have we ever had that? I don't believe so... A person on the rail yelling out "You got 4 BB 5 handed, you gotta shove!"
@@borknagar5454only thing dat should be allowed is music I kno I used 2 listen 2 music while playing and friends did 2 not 2 loud tho 2 interrupt the game but jus in background ya kno. What that guy did was totally cheating and back in the day way back I wouldn't have wanted 2 been in his shoes ya kno what im saying would've been very bad 4 him lol
I stand with him. Because I've been a victim of this sort of thing online But no one cares. Daniel only cares because its effecting him. He even at times has shown doubt on online poker being rigged. But in the next breath says its not But feels like it is. But he don't try and and find out as gg sponsored player he's not protecting the integrity game there is he no.
I love Daniel but I don't agree with him on this. Since WSOP didn't have a problem with it at the time, then too bad, I hope it gets fixed by next year though.
with people cheating at this modern game of Poker the game will dramatically shrink in popularity. Also, if safeguards aren't put in place to address this issue there can be no happy "ending" for America's favorite card game
But when the hand is over, you can get up, go to the restroom and talk to a friend or coach about strategy... They probably need a no electronics while in the gaming area while actively being registered in a tournament... Or let it be allowed.
That would mean during a hand. Wasn't the coaching done after the action was complete? What I heard transpire was Tamayo asking how he played a previous hand. Obviously, he didn't walk away from the table to ask if he should raise or call. It's the WSOP's fault; either it's legal to receive coaching AFTER the hand, or it's not. All they have to do is require the players to stay near the table and away from the rail
@@Tom_Bee_ That for me is no different, as a similar hand may come up again and the player now knows what the correct action is because it was checked already.
First, I agree 100%. Imo there should be no electronics on the floor except official tournament broadcasting equipment. this is merely devils advocate. If coaching during breaks is allowed, then how is using coaching tools within the tournaments rules wrong? Wouldn't that instead be a failure on the hosting entity?
@@TheBowtiedBandit Coaching breaks shouldn't even be allowed. Just player vs player, you should have done all your coaching and training before the match.
This is how low the WSOP has fallen. Letting a CHEATER get away with the win in the main event. I wonder how many officials were also involved in this scam. Disgusting.
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
Why is this even an argument? This is blatant cheating, it's not even a question. Pressure is a very powerful thing, if a player doesn't have the pressure of having to make a critical decision because he's told what decision to make it takes the true competition away and definitely changes the outcome. A big part of playing good poker is being able to make game changing decisions under pressure. If a computer is making those decisions for you are you the one really playing the game?
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
The easiest solution is to have the WSOP make a rule to have no electric software at all in any live tournaments. I just can't believe they let him go to his friend with a laptop and then not say anything about it. Nothing and nobody is supposed to influence the game of play. I didn't think that laptop and his friend were also playing the final table. What a disgrace.
If live, in-game AI is allowed, then the humans at the table are nothing more than conduits for decisions made by the AIs. At that point, the WSOP is just various AIs playing against each other. No one wants that.
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
There was nothing ambiguous about the rules...!!! It was announced by the loud speaker several times, including during the final table. No matter how you cut it, it was obvious cheating.
No... I believe the ambiguous lies in "A PLAYER cannot use software" Yes I know it was for Tamayo's gain... But was it allowed for a player to ask his friend on the rail to look up a hand x,y, z what was the 3 bet ranges and how should I continue with 22 Bigs... I bet that happened alot, and I believe that was allowed.
The reason it wasn't "Obvious Cheating" is because they were front and center with the laptop going over previous hands... They weren't trying to hide it... They were live on national TV or GoPoker... The other players said nothing about it, the dealers, floor, or directors said nothing about it... No poker pros/audience members said nothing about it... NOBODY mentioned anything! It was an aid, but I believe to be considered 'cheating' they had to 100% know they were breaking the rules and did it anyways... I don't believe they thought they were doing anything wrong
@@darylmixan8170he’s using the software though, he’s not touching it but he’s using it to his advantage. Like when the TV is on and you’re watching it you’re not touching it you’re still using it for entertainment
I’m 100% behind Daniel. I’ve never seen anyone go look at a computer to see how they should play. The other guy wasn’t a pro . I would’ve said something. What’s the point in playing if everyone is going to look at their computer in between hands
WSOP should take a stand with DN and the rest of the poker community and strike Tamayo down. He should have title revoked, be banned and have fines and lawsuits leveled against him.
Playing Devil's advocate for a minute. Although this guy didn't play fair and it was a scummy way to win, you cannot really blame the player here. If the written rules have been overlooked for that long, it is very much the organizers at fault. In any competitive event, people try to gain advantages, how "unfair" they are is very much down to opinion. In poker, people angle shoot, wear sunglasses and other concealing clothing, "table talk" (which is just annoying the other other player in most cases to get a reaction), etc. These things are still tolerated, but aren't very sporting and ruin the game to a degree.
C'mon... Not a chance... It was not implemented at the time... I don't believe they thought they were being nefarious... A player CANNOT use a solver... but can his coach? I know ultimately it was Tamayo... but if he does get in trouble, what happens if a photo of Scott Seiver looking at his friend's phone during the WSOP comes up? Does he lose his bracelets and money? You cannot kill a guy for something so small and in the gray area... It should have been a warning and they should have been told to stop...
Can't go that far you have to give him this win he didn't break a known wsop rule . Now saying that they must immediately install a rule. I don't think they should or could even ban him. But they can stop it and that's the right thing to do now. Must close this loophole now. Or the game will be destroyed. I imagine there may even be sites in the future that allows this for everyone which is fine if you make it known. That would be ethical.fair . Just my thoughts. And that's all we really want.
He did nothing wrong. He was getting coaching after the fact, just like I've seen players do for years there. Ban the rail coaching and cell phone use and it's resolved. Otherwise, it's going to continue
It has to be either very lenient... or VERY strict... I think you start with no electronics, even headphones, at the table... After that you can look at solvers away from the table... Imagine a guy winning a few bracelets and having a picture surface of him looking at a friend's phone with a poker app on it... and they take his money at bracelets?
And let's not allow sunglasses, hoodies, and scarves at the table too. It's ridiculous watching these players hide behind sunglasses and hoodies at the table.
i recently entered a tourny called " social experiment".. loved it!.. everybody else did too!.. no phones allowed at table, no hoodies, sun glasses!.. only a ball cap allowed... i say zero devices or masks, disguises, etc
That is what I have been saying. If you want to cover your head go play online. And I like wearing slightly tinted sunglasses. The WSOP better tighten things up.
I don't understand why, in the middle of a competition that is played with the mind, and requries logicial thinking and strategy, that a player is allowed to go and confer with other minds on the rail between moves to discuss strategies at all. In what other sport or similar competition would this ever be allowed? Are chess players allowed to stand up and talk to the crowd during the middle of a game to discuss strategy with the observers? It's so easily solved, it's stupid. Players are not allowed to confer with the rail during competition. Simple, solved.
You can’t compare chess and poker like they are the same game it’s not even close. If you use a solver in the chess game you will win 10/10 time even if you use a solver in poker you can still lose all 10 games unlikely but can still happen
@@eric5758 It's not as much about the tool itself, as it is receiving 3rd party advice during live competition at all. It doesn't matter if you are asking the person what a solver says, or if you are asking the person what they personally think you should be doing. Coaching is coaching, and is seldom allowed during competitive events, especially in those which are a competition of minds. It's a competition between the players at the table, not against the player at the table and his friends.
@@eric5758 What a stupid comment. The principle stays the same, you increase your winning rate by not thinking for yourself but instead let an AI think for you!
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
Usually when people like Niteche resort to name calling it's because they know they're wrong. Calling Daniel a moron shows Nitsche is something who got caught cheating and knows he cheated.
Cell phones are so powerful these days, someone could easily pull up software to help them. In-person, high stakes games should ban cell phones at the table, let alone consulting a team running algorithms for you mid game
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
RTA stands for "real-time assistance" and is a term used in poker to describe when a player receives help while playing. RTA tools can include: Manual input RTA tools: These tools require the player to manually enter information, and then provide solutions based on those inputs. Static RTA tools: These tools include preflop push/fold charts or postflop betting charts. RTA tools are considered unethical and are banned at all major poker sites. Most poker players consider using RTA tools to be cheating.
Here is a prime example of what happened? "This is like NOT going to school your entire life and JUST using google to find an answer when you need it, or to solve an issue" Normally people go to school to be educated and have a "Fair" chance at becoming intelligent and the best at what you are trying to achieve
Millions actually play on-line when its a known fact the program can and will cause someone to win and to lose. It's called money and when its involved then many forms or cheating will happen. Maybe the program on-line games uses something to make sure it gets over at a certain time frame. It makes sure there are more players in a hand and someone will bust out. More tourneys more money to be made in a certain amount of time. Programs are made by humans and it can and not be actually random but to get the outcome that is wanted by the program makers. Bots also come into play. You are never getting a real shuffled deck.
Are we going to allow a camera on an opponent to view heartrate, blood pressure, temperature? It seems so crystal clear... you CAN NOT use any outside tools or help from other players while you are in the game. One player... one hand... why is this even a question? I don't get it.
What's the point of a poker "player" if you rely on AI to basically make all decisions for you? It's like wheeling out a pitching machine at a baseball game.
The guy who said Daniel is a moron is the biggest moron of all. Does looking for a loophole to get away for murder absolve you from the crime after it's committed? It's not even an argument!
Geez. This has been going on since I started playing poker 40 years ago. I see other players coaching and advising a player while they are in a hand. I've seen players read the board for players. As long as the player is losing money to these pros, the pros don't care about rules. As soon as the pro loses to them, now they want to speak up. Stop the hypocripsy.
In all tournaments,coaching is forbidden. Especially in the WSOP. This should call for sanctions, fines and return of prizes won. And a permanent ban from entering any WSOP tournaments in the future..
I gotta give the "nay-no" on straddles in MTTs. Everybody on every table has to be playing the same structure. Straddles make for bigger pots and bigger swings, which is fine for an uber-rich Trustafarian like Keating playing a nosebleed cash game, but is unfair to the table as players on that table will bust quicker than other tables. It doesn't just affect the straddler, it affects the whole table.
Dominic and Tamayo are two little weasels who had to cheat to win, and it made it unfair to the thousands of entrants in the WSOP Tournament. Tamayo should be stripped of his title, and along with Dominic, should be banned from future WSOP events.
Legal action might be expensive and as Daniel said, a negative EV. What about the Gaming Commission? I'm speaking as an amateur player, but the commission isn't just there to make sure the game venue is fair among other responsibilities (Note: They mentioned about the WSOP rules at the end of the video, but it should be set by Nevada Gaming).
Sure. It is cheating and at a minimum against the spirit of competition. But as far as going to court, I don't think any law was broken. Further, since they didn't do anything about the computer on the rail, they can't even say what type of software was or wasn't used. Hell it's not even illegal to count cards in blackjack.
absolutely terrible we even have to have this conversation...a solver being used tableside? Wtf... thats like watching wimbledon and 1 player uses a machine to serve perfectly at 130mph while other has a 2x4 instead of a racket. AI has no place anywhere near ANY competitive skill based event (as anything more than a pregame study and memorization), Nor should u be able to go "talk to fans" during a hand. It's attrocious these aren't rules alrdy. Why do you think we all home playing our buddies for $100...WSoBS is a more fitting name.
Tournament director and floor are at fault too. They obviously see what is going on and should’ve put a stop to it immediately. Even if the rule is not explicitly written, they are obligated to protect the integrity of the game anytime it becomes questionable. They should’ve put a stop to it and discussed the intricacies later.
I’d be okay with a purely Analog (pen and paper, or printout) of the player’s notes on their opponents’ tendencies, but anything past that is potentially gaining an unfair advantage over everyone else.
Well because of this they should have better written rules for the next. What the kid did was disgrace to game. At the end he doesn't care. I hope they just fix it for the upcoming year.
If you can't use the software at a blackjack table, you shouldn't use it at a poker table. How many casinos may let you bring software to any table or use during games.
It totally should be considered cheating. The rules should be similar to chess tournaments. During live play, no computers, no seconds or help or coaching is allowed. During adjournments the chess players of course are allowed to meet with their team members, go over strategy, review the plays so far etc.
During a hand... after a hand you can preach about it to anybody... You can even talk to your opponent about it... You can ask the pro at the table what they would have done.
How is this even a question? If I use a computer to play blackjack in Vegas then I would be guilty of a FELONY and the casino would/should prosecute and put me in jail AND that is EXACTLY what should happen to EVERYONE involved with this cheating. You should not have access to ANYTHING ACCEPT YOUR BRAIN during a game. You can look at notes BEFORE the game NOT DURING.
No paper charts, no coaches or sideline coaching, no phones, no AI while on the poker table. Everything you need should be in your head while in any stakes games.
The house enforces the rules. Bottom line of the rule book is usually, "decision of the floor man is final". We play against people. If the house lets someone use AI, then okay. When everyone saw the laptop being used, the floor should of stopped it, on the spot.
So technically, Jonathan did not break any rules, so he did not cheat. But he has ruined the integrity and spirit of the game. This needs to be fixed, or say goodbye to Poker as a sport.
…. It’s common sense. -anything (AI included) to gage your opponent, should only be done “Before” and “After”, never during the match. Such a simple issue to solve..
imagine you had a machine that would give you a 1% increased edge on a slot machine, from 96.5% RTP to 97.5% RTP. (RTP is return to player and a way of measuring EV of a slot. In general you'll lose 3.5% of your bet size per spin on a 96.5% RTP slot) The casinos would not only kick you out; they'd have police arrest you. Why is it ok for this person to use a machine against other players? (answer: Not the casinos money; they don't care).
How did what he did increase his edge ? It was used after the hands right ? What were they calculating after the hand that gave him an advantage before the next hand ?
I was in the last 3 tables in a 250k guarantee tournament at hardrock, and a guy was using a raise/fold chart on his phone (while on the table playing!) Director said its not against the rules cus he cant be on his phone during a hand, but Lots of people get away with being on their phone during a hand. Hopefully technology issues like this dont get worse.
would be curious to know how that 10 mill was split up among the colluders. also no one mentioned the earpiece that was pulled out of tomayos ear and whisked away.
So let me make this clear. What Tomayo did was NOT against the rules? If he didn't break the rules then it is not cheating? Don't get me wrong, I agree with Daniel that he "cheated", but if the tournament rules don't explicitly state so, then what he did was fine, although morally questionable.
It's no longer your skill vs another. This goes along with much that has happened the last few years everywhere. Normalize the abnormal, legalize the illegal. If it's done enough, it becomes common and eventually law/rule. Hard to believe that this was allowed? In todays world, not really.
I can't believe this has become a "discussion"... I'm from Hill City South Dakota just down the road from a historical town where a legendary hand was created over bad blood. But history is filled with cheats like Arnold Rothstein, etc and one thing is for sure, there was never a way to simply "unwind it", it ALWAYS ended up being "dealt with" and I believe this is no different. The game of poker is a time honored tradition, and although it has morphed through many changes, one standard always kept the line... INTEGRITY!! You either played the game with some form of gentlemen's rules, or you found yourself on the wrong end of the trouble that came from cheating.... I hope there is a group that hurries and rises to the surface to correct this issue, because it's NOT going away! It's going to FESTER until something bad becomes of it.
In online poker most sites are bot loaded. One site favors two leagues that they own besides the site itself. Dollars be made by the criminals. / cheaters. Sad but happening all over the place. Defunct league representing a league that no longer exists. In tournaments!! Cuz it was shut down.. wtf! Thank you for giving a shit about the integrity of poker because it seriously matters. Honesty and transparency need to be done and implemented asap!
Really sad but how do they not already have clear rules on this. I get they probably dont care because they are making money either way but when less people play because they know there is cheating they might start to care.
Isn’t it the same if you have your friends standing behind you while you playing blackjack and they are counting cards for you? It’s not illegal but it’s prohibited.
RTA is not an assurance of winning and it may even direct you to the other way. It is a tool applied by your thinking style. Just like stockcharts analysis employed in stock trading, it does not guarantee anything. Only when you trust a certain technical analysis method yourself, it could quickly deliver the result based on your own analysis instead of guaranteeing a positive result. I believe when you employ the thinking of betting on outs/odds, you would even lose quicker than you think while most people think odds calculation is science and definitely deliver you the ultimate winning result. The reason it fails is because the bet size constantly changes from time to time, that adds a dimension on top of everything you can think of, plus the bluffing factor in a real game while logical reasoning is not the only factor of a decision being made.
In a demolition derby, Chrysler Imperials are 'outlawed' . I've seen it go to a drivers vote gaining entry. Needless to say he was the 1st out. Ha! One for all and all for one
Why is this even debatable, somehow noone is arguing whether or not players in chess tournaments should be allowed to consult with a team using solvers, its ridiculous
Part of the blame is on the people who run the WSOP for not writing clear and easily understandable rules regarding the use of the devices. The best rule is banning them from use. The second best rule is only allowing use during meal breaks/end of the sessions, AWAY from the table
At this stage, we might as well pay AI to play on our behalf, turning offline tournaments into AI battles where anyone can bet on the outcome. Personally, it doesn't bother me much-I’m not a competitive poker player, and I enjoy exploring AI. But it’s like having a reliable friend who can tell you exactly what each player is up to. PS: I think you should do like chess. No coaching. No electronic device.
It’s insane to even suggest that using computer programs during a live or online match to help you play better is within the bounds of what’s okay. The whole point of when you sit down at a table and wager your money is that everyone’s edge is calculated by their own personal skill level not from some kind of bullshit outside of that table.
Yo, Doug Alan Daniel Brad come play at the Guthrie VFW Post 4578, on Thursday 6:30 or 8:30 the only computer we have is the time clock. If you win you win $20.00 and bragging rights. Bring it, we need practice! Roy.
While the computer program used may not have been RTA, the assistance received was in "real time;" it was just provided by a person rather than just a computer. They're trying to argue semantics. If anything it breaks one of the fundamental rules of "One player per hand."
Using AI at a poker table is 100% cheating and brings the spirit of the game into disripute. Carrying a notepad with tactics or info is not an issue whatsoever since the information on that pad is not being given or altered in real time by a sophisticated computer. This should not need an explanation. If a player uses AI you're no longer playing against a player but a machine instead since the real time info being given is influencing your decision making. The same way a player cannot influence the decision of another or give away information because of collusion. If I'm at a live poker table and I notice any player using AI at the table, I am calling them on it for sure. Daniel is 100% right in what he is saying and Poker Ethics/Etiquette must be observed for the good of the game.
The WSOP could eliminate all this by changing a few rules. No TV showings of hands until the tournament is over and no contact by any player with anyone on the rail or anywhere else except those at the table.
This isn’t complicated, it is a contest of poker skills. Saying AI is part of the evolution for “live” poker is ridiculous. Also, what I don’t see anyone talking about is coaching the player from the sidelines, the poker rules clearly states “one player per hand!” If Dominic played any part in assisting Tamayo win that is cheating and the prize money returned. And it is abundantly clear Dominic was coaching between hands.
It's not a clash of ideologies. The rules state you cannot use these. If you don't enforce your rules there's no structure for anything. It's not a bold take at all. What is next. Now I can have my buddy hold a telescope that sees my opponents hold cards and sends it to me and use that? Please. There's not supposed to be outside help during a game and these tools are not allowed to be used. The second place guy should sue him for breaking Nevada gaming codes.
Hahaha! Yup... I just don't see huge penalties unless it's 100% blatant... too hard to police... I think the floor needs to be on top of their game and give warnings and in-game penalties like time outs... I definitely don't believe it should result in disqualifications or monetary penalties. I believe McKeenan and Tamayo thought they might get warned, maybe, and then put it away... but they didnt... nothing should happen to Tamayo... The event is official. What he did didn't break a Nevada Gaming Law or Gaming cheating law... but a policy set by the WSOP, like F-Bomb rule etc... How many others' in the Main went to the rail to ask their friend to look up a hand? And ask for advice? Probably alot
They always compare on-line poker with live. They are not comparable. On-line poker you could be wearing a space suit with the sun screen down. The other players wouldn't know.
It should be uses the same rule as in chess, you lose the game if you have a cellphone with you at the table. In chess it doesn’t matter if the cellphone is on or off, the game is lost.
If WSOP rules do not disallow it and the player has used it to gain an edge, whether right or wrong… it’s not cheating. It might be wrong, unsportsmanlike, shady.
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Once seated. there should be no off-table help. Hell, there should be no bloody cell phones.
100%!
You can stop Cell phones and I 100% 1000% agree with you... But you'll never be able to police outside help... but there are different measures of outside help... If you go to the rail to talk to a coach, calm down, etc... Yes that is fine... Obviously you shouldn't be allowed to have a coach on the rail yell out what to do... Call, fold etc... Have we ever had that? I don't believe so... A person on the rail yelling out "You got 4 BB 5 handed, you gotta shove!"
then you should not allow the player talking with anybody in the stands as well, banning any possible advice from anyone during the game.
There isn't. Cell phones are banned. That's why this is an even bigger issue.
@@borknagar5454only thing dat should be allowed is music I kno I used 2 listen 2 music while playing and friends did 2 not 2 loud tho 2 interrupt the game but jus in background ya kno. What that guy did was totally cheating and back in the day way back I wouldn't have wanted 2 been in his shoes ya kno what im saying would've been very bad 4 him lol
how can you not stand with daniel on this? mad respect to the poker kid for taking a stand!
I stand with him. Because I've been a victim of this sort of thing online
But no one cares. Daniel only cares because its effecting him. He even at times has shown doubt on online poker being rigged. But in the next breath says its not But feels like it is. But he don't try and and find out as gg sponsored player he's not protecting the integrity game there is he no.
I love Daniel but I don't agree with him on this. Since WSOP didn't have a problem with it at the time, then too bad, I hope it gets fixed by next year though.
with people cheating at this modern game of Poker the game will dramatically shrink in popularity. Also, if safeguards aren't put in place to address this issue there can be no happy "ending" for America's favorite card game
Well, because I’m in a wheel chair
No straddles in tournaments.. go play cash...
The problem here is the floor manager not forcing the rules.
there is no rules about ai at in person events just online so technically the floor cant enforce something that dont exist
The rule everywhere is "one player, one hand".
Consulting an AI agent violates that rule.
They aren't doing it in hand about current cards though, so that rule wasn't broken. They were looking at past hands
Agreed 100%
But when the hand is over, you can get up, go to the restroom and talk to a friend or coach about strategy... They probably need a no electronics while in the gaming area while actively being registered in a tournament... Or let it be allowed.
That would mean during a hand. Wasn't the coaching done after the action was complete? What I heard transpire was Tamayo asking how he played a previous hand. Obviously, he didn't walk away from the table to ask if he should raise or call. It's the WSOP's fault; either it's legal to receive coaching AFTER the hand, or it's not. All they have to do is require the players to stay near the table and away from the rail
@@Tom_Bee_ That for me is no different, as a similar hand may come up again and the player now knows what the correct action is because it was checked already.
There is no room for AI in a poker tournament
100%
First, I agree 100%. Imo there should be no electronics on the floor except official tournament broadcasting equipment. this is merely devils advocate. If coaching during breaks is allowed, then how is using coaching tools within the tournaments rules wrong? Wouldn't that instead be a failure on the hosting entity?
@@TheBowtiedBandit Coaching breaks shouldn't even be allowed. Just player vs player, you should have done all your coaching and training before the match.
Theres no room for AI anywhere.
It's the worst shit since social media.
This is how low the WSOP has fallen.
Letting a CHEATER get away with the win in the main event.
I wonder how many officials were also involved in this scam.
Disgusting.
What rule did he break?
True. They probably all got a piece of the pie.
Karma will come to collect eventually.
@@Gymantis no external help. Rule: One man, one hand
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
I think the real question is: WHY didn't the WSOP officials stopped that on the spot, while it was happening? Everyone could see what he was doing.
Why is this even an argument? This is blatant cheating, it's not even a question. Pressure is a very powerful thing, if a player doesn't have the pressure of having to make a critical decision because he's told what decision to make it takes the true competition away and definitely changes the outcome. A big part of playing good poker is being able to make game changing decisions under pressure. If a computer is making those decisions for you are you the one really playing the game?
Nobody was telling anyone what decision to make in the moment. They were analysing past hands
The casino don't allow you to have your phone on and listen to music while playing blackjack or Bacharach. Bro I agree with you it's cheating.
Right! One player per hand.
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
The easiest solution is to have the WSOP make a rule to have no electric software at all in any live tournaments. I just can't believe they let him go to his friend with a laptop and then not say anything about it. Nothing and nobody is supposed to influence the game of play. I didn't think that laptop and his friend were also playing the final table. What a disgrace.
If live, in-game AI is allowed, then the humans at the table are nothing more than conduits for decisions made by the AIs. At that point, the WSOP is just various AIs playing against each other. No one wants that.
Make me a conduit already, if it’s gonna put good money in my pocket.
Agreed … it was wrong
100%
Ofcourse it is but how are you gonna stop it..
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
He was wearing an earpiece. He could have been getting hand by hand advice on ranges and bet sizing from the guys on the laptop.
yes absolutely.
obviously he did but it was determined fair
I won't be playing in the WSOP in 2025 until this gets rectified and clarified.
What would you want to see done?
Do you mean ‘unless’? Otherwise your sentence makes no sense.
@@darylmixan8170Not using computers. Smh. It's that simple
Lol
There was nothing ambiguous about the rules...!!! It was announced by the loud speaker several times, including during the final table. No matter how you cut it, it was obvious cheating.
No... I believe the ambiguous lies in "A PLAYER cannot use software" Yes I know it was for Tamayo's gain... But was it allowed for a player to ask his friend on the rail to look up a hand x,y, z what was the 3 bet ranges and how should I continue with 22 Bigs... I bet that happened alot, and I believe that was allowed.
Not obviously cheating...
The reason it wasn't "Obvious Cheating" is because they were front and center with the laptop going over previous hands... They weren't trying to hide it... They were live on national TV or GoPoker... The other players said nothing about it, the dealers, floor, or directors said nothing about it... No poker pros/audience members said nothing about it... NOBODY mentioned anything! It was an aid, but I believe to be considered 'cheating' they had to 100% know they were breaking the rules and did it anyways... I don't believe they thought they were doing anything wrong
@@darylmixan8170he’s using the software though, he’s not touching it but he’s using it to his advantage. Like when the TV is on and you’re watching it you’re not touching it you’re still using it for entertainment
Its not out right cheating. Its the fact hes being coached during the final table. U people need to understand the diff
They quickly took the ear piece out of his ear and hid it. He was also getting fed info real time not just on the rail.
I’m 100% behind Daniel. I’ve never seen anyone go look at a computer to see how they should play. The other guy wasn’t a pro . I would’ve said something. What’s the point in playing if everyone is going to look at their computer in between hands
WSOP should take a stand with DN and the rest of the poker community and strike Tamayo down. He should have title revoked, be banned and have fines and lawsuits leveled against him.
Playing Devil's advocate for a minute. Although this guy didn't play fair and it was a scummy way to win, you cannot really blame the player here. If the written rules have been overlooked for that long, it is very much the organizers at fault. In any competitive event, people try to gain advantages, how "unfair" they are is very much down to opinion. In poker, people angle shoot, wear sunglasses and other concealing clothing, "table talk" (which is just annoying the other other player in most cases to get a reaction), etc. These things are still tolerated, but aren't very sporting and ruin the game to a degree.
C'mon... Not a chance... It was not implemented at the time... I don't believe they thought they were being nefarious... A player CANNOT use a solver... but can his coach? I know ultimately it was Tamayo... but if he does get in trouble, what happens if a photo of Scott Seiver looking at his friend's phone during the WSOP comes up? Does he lose his bracelets and money? You cannot kill a guy for something so small and in the gray area... It should have been a warning and they should have been told to stop...
Seems like you don’t know how the law works. There would be no real case for the WSOP if they tried to take him to court and they know it.
Can't go that far you have to give him this win he didn't break a known wsop rule . Now saying that they must immediately install a rule. I don't think they should or could even ban him. But they can stop it and that's the right thing to do now. Must close this loophole now. Or the game will be destroyed. I imagine there may even be sites in the future that allows this for everyone which is fine if you make it known. That would be ethical.fair . Just my thoughts. And that's all we really want.
He did nothing wrong. He was getting coaching after the fact, just like I've seen players do for years there. Ban the rail coaching and cell phone use and it's resolved. Otherwise, it's going to continue
IMHO no electronic devices of any kind should be allowed in the room--nothing.
It has to be either very lenient... or VERY strict... I think you start with no electronics, even headphones, at the table... After that you can look at solvers away from the table... Imagine a guy winning a few bracelets and having a picture surface of him looking at a friend's phone with a poker app on it... and they take his money at bracelets?
by anyone
And let's not allow sunglasses, hoodies, and scarves at the table too. It's ridiculous watching these players hide behind sunglasses and hoodies at the table.
@@ExtremeAudits I agree.
So no cameras? You’re the kind of person that people are afraid of accidentally appealing to.
i recently entered a tourny called " social experiment".. loved it!.. everybody else did too!.. no phones allowed at table, no hoodies, sun glasses!.. only a ball cap allowed... i say zero devices or masks, disguises, etc
That worked for Doyle Brunson! Should work for the rest of us.
That is what I have been saying. If you want to cover your head go play online. And I like wearing slightly tinted sunglasses. The WSOP better tighten things up.
@@matthewtate7885Technically Doyle often wore tinted lenses back in the day.
I don't understand why, in the middle of a competition that is played with the mind, and requries logicial thinking and strategy, that a player is allowed to go and confer with other minds on the rail between moves to discuss strategies at all.
In what other sport or similar competition would this ever be allowed? Are chess players allowed to stand up and talk to the crowd during the middle of a game to discuss strategy with the observers?
It's so easily solved, it's stupid. Players are not allowed to confer with the rail during competition. Simple, solved.
You can’t compare chess and poker like they are the same game it’s not even close. If you use a solver in the chess game you will win 10/10 time even if you use a solver in poker you can still lose all 10 games unlikely but can still happen
@@eric5758 It's not as much about the tool itself, as it is receiving 3rd party advice during live competition at all. It doesn't matter if you are asking the person what a solver says, or if you are asking the person what they personally think you should be doing.
Coaching is coaching, and is seldom allowed during competitive events, especially in those which are a competition of minds. It's a competition between the players at the table, not against the player at the table and his friends.
@@eric5758 What a stupid comment. The principle stays the same, you increase your winning rate by not thinking for yourself but instead let an AI think for you!
In what other sport? What about football, baseball, and basketball. I constantly see the players going to the coach and getting some advice.
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
Usually when people like Niteche resort to name calling it's because they know they're wrong. Calling Daniel a moron shows Nitsche is something who got caught cheating and knows he cheated.
Cell phones are so powerful these days, someone could easily pull up software to help them. In-person, high stakes games should ban cell phones at the table, let alone consulting a team running algorithms for you mid game
He did cheat and so did his friends they should all be banned.
And the floor in charge should be fired and never be allowed to run a tournament again.
Get real here. At no time did he get help DURING a hand. At no time did he break ANY written rule. At no time did an official stop him. So where's the cheating? Saying it's against the spirit of the game is prepubescent name calling. This is the real world with REAL TEN MILLION DOLLAR MONEY.
RTA stands for "real-time assistance" and is a term used in poker to describe when a player receives help while playing. RTA tools can include:
Manual input RTA tools: These tools require the player to manually enter information, and then provide solutions based on those inputs.
Static RTA tools: These tools include preflop push/fold charts or postflop betting charts.
RTA tools are considered unethical and are banned at all major poker sites. Most poker players consider using RTA tools to be cheating.
The fact WSOP didn't DQ him is going to hurt them, but probably not enough for them to care. Their credibility is ruined in my eyes.
Here is a prime example of what happened?
"This is like NOT going to school your entire life and JUST using google to find an answer when you need it, or to solve an issue"
Normally people go to school to be educated and have a "Fair" chance at becoming intelligent and the best at what you are trying to achieve
This problem is why I will never play online again.
That and all sites are full of bots
Millions actually play on-line when its a known fact the program can and will cause someone to win and to lose. It's called money and when its involved then many forms or cheating will happen. Maybe the program on-line games uses something to make sure it gets over at a certain time frame. It makes sure there are more players in a hand and someone will bust out. More tourneys more money to be made in a certain amount of time. Programs are made by humans and it can and not be actually random but to get the outcome that is wanted by the program makers. Bots also come into play. You are never getting a real shuffled deck.
The real absolute moron is the 2nd runner up. If he sued then this will be clarified and exposed.
@@rockort3330 Unfortunately, the WSOP probably has attorneys that can outlast that guys checkbook.
@@matthewtate7885 This.
Are we going to allow a camera on an opponent to view heartrate, blood pressure, temperature? It seems so crystal clear... you CAN NOT use any outside tools or help from other players while you are in the game. One player... one hand... why is this even a question? I don't get it.
What a Disgrace to the game and the casino that allowed this.
What's the point of a poker "player" if you rely on AI to basically make all decisions for you? It's like wheeling out a pitching machine at a baseball game.
the point is: MONEY!!!!
Why would The WSOP allow him to do this?
The guy who said Daniel is a moron is the biggest moron of all. Does looking for a loophole to get away for murder absolve you from the crime after it's committed? It's not even an argument!
No machine should be allowed at the poker table.
Alan Keating: the big man of poker. Alan is holding his with 2 hands while Daniel and Doug are holding with 2 fingers
Seeing a laptop seemed very odd to me. No, I have no idea how the computer was being used. Computing technology shouldn't be used period.
Geez. This has been going on since I started playing poker 40 years ago. I see other players coaching and advising a player while they are in a hand. I've seen players read the board for players. As long as the player is losing money to these pros, the pros don't care about rules. As soon as the pro loses to them, now they want to speak up. Stop the hypocripsy.
In all tournaments,coaching is forbidden. Especially in the WSOP. This should call for sanctions, fines and return of prizes won. And a permanent ban from entering any WSOP tournaments in the future..
I gotta give the "nay-no" on straddles in MTTs. Everybody on every table has to be playing the same structure. Straddles make for bigger pots and bigger swings, which is fine for an uber-rich Trustafarian like Keating playing a nosebleed cash game, but is unfair to the table as players on that table will bust quicker than other tables. It doesn't just affect the straddler, it affects the whole table.
Def cheated. Needs to be change o rules asap
Dominic and Tamayo are two little weasels who had to cheat to win, and it made it unfair to the thousands of entrants in the WSOP Tournament. Tamayo should be stripped of his title, and along with Dominic, should be banned from future WSOP events.
Legal action might be expensive and as Daniel said, a negative EV. What about the Gaming Commission? I'm speaking as an amateur player, but the commission isn't just there to make sure the game venue is fair among other responsibilities (Note: They mentioned about the WSOP rules at the end of the video, but it should be set by Nevada Gaming).
There’s no jury that wouldn’t understand that a computer and specialized software will give you a considerable advantage.
Sure. It is cheating and at a minimum against the spirit of competition. But as far as going to court, I don't think any law was broken. Further, since they didn't do anything about the computer on the rail, they can't even say what type of software was or wasn't used.
Hell it's not even illegal to count cards in blackjack.
Imo ... A person like Daniel should be totally listened to.. He Earned what he's done..
absolutely terrible we even have to have this conversation...a solver being used tableside? Wtf... thats like watching wimbledon and 1 player uses a machine to serve perfectly at 130mph while other has a 2x4 instead of a racket. AI has no place anywhere near ANY competitive skill based event (as anything more than a pregame study and memorization), Nor should u be able to go "talk to fans" during a hand. It's attrocious these aren't rules alrdy. Why do you think we all home playing our buddies for $100...WSoBS is a more fitting name.
The bigger scandal is how casinos use shuffle machines to cheat your average player...
Everyone knows that casinos are rigged against players. It's no scandal, just business as usual.
Tournament director and floor are at fault too. They obviously see what is going on and should’ve put a stop to it immediately. Even if the rule is not explicitly written, they are obligated to protect the integrity of the game anytime it becomes questionable. They should’ve put a stop to it and discussed the intricacies later.
EXACTLY!
I’d be okay with a purely Analog (pen and paper, or printout) of the player’s notes on their opponents’ tendencies, but anything past that is potentially gaining an unfair advantage over everyone else.
Yeah I don't play poker much anymore, but watching the FT of the main I was floored that he had a rail with a macbook and earpieces assisting him LOL.
Why don't you play often anymore?
@@PokerTVAA Family decision - plus no legal way to play (at least that I trust) online in my state.
Well because of this they should have better written rules for the next. What the kid did was disgrace to game. At the end he doesn't care. I hope they just fix it for the upcoming year.
If you can't use the software at a blackjack table, you shouldn't use it at a poker table.
How many casinos may let you bring software to any table or use during games.
Last time in Stockholm a guy was sitting with a headphone and reading a book. So annoying
It totally should be considered cheating. The rules should be similar to chess tournaments. During live play, no computers, no seconds or help or coaching is allowed. During adjournments the chess players of course are allowed to meet with their team members, go over strategy, review the plays so far etc.
Daniel is 100% spot on
What about the rule that states you are only allowed one person per hand.
During a hand... after a hand you can preach about it to anybody... You can even talk to your opponent about it... You can ask the pro at the table what they would have done.
How is this even a question? If I use a computer to play blackjack in Vegas then I would be guilty of a FELONY and the casino would/should prosecute and put me in jail AND that is EXACTLY what should happen to EVERYONE involved with this cheating. You should not have access to ANYTHING ACCEPT YOUR BRAIN during a game. You can look at notes BEFORE the game NOT DURING.
Insane to think that anyone might not consider this cheating
That’s just your opinion
No sunglasses, masks, hoodies that cover the face, or hiding the face.
Definitely no coaching during the game.
Poker does not need this rta crap. Daniel's right on the money.
No paper charts, no coaches or sideline coaching, no phones, no AI while on the poker table. Everything you need should be in your head while in any stakes games.
The house enforces the rules. Bottom line of the rule book is usually, "decision of the floor man is final". We play against people. If the house lets someone use AI, then okay. When everyone saw the laptop being used, the floor should of stopped it, on the spot.
So technically, Jonathan did not break any rules, so he did not cheat.
But he has ruined the integrity and spirit of the game.
This needs to be fixed, or say goodbye to Poker as a sport.
No. Juristically he did not cheat, technically he did.
yes he cheated. He got pre flop decision making info before the flop.
…. It’s common sense.
-anything (AI included) to gage your opponent, should only be done “Before” and “After”, never during the match. Such a simple issue to solve..
imagine you had a machine that would give you a 1% increased edge on a slot machine, from 96.5% RTP to 97.5% RTP. (RTP is return to player and a way of measuring EV of a slot. In general you'll lose 3.5% of your bet size per spin on a 96.5% RTP slot)
The casinos would not only kick you out; they'd have police arrest you.
Why is it ok for this person to use a machine against other players? (answer: Not the casinos money; they don't care).
How did what he did increase his edge ? It was used after the hands right ? What were they calculating after the hand that gave him an advantage before the next hand ?
I was in the last 3 tables in a 250k guarantee tournament at hardrock, and a guy was using a raise/fold chart on his phone (while on the table playing!) Director said its not against the rules cus he cant be on his phone during a hand, but Lots of people get away with being on their phone during a hand. Hopefully technology issues like this dont get worse.
would be curious to know how that 10 mill was split up among the colluders. also no one mentioned the earpiece that was pulled out of tomayos ear and whisked away.
So let me make this clear. What Tomayo did was NOT against the rules? If he didn't break the rules then it is not cheating? Don't get me wrong, I agree with Daniel that he "cheated", but if the tournament rules don't explicitly state so, then what he did was fine, although morally questionable.
It's no longer your skill vs another. This goes along with much that has happened the last few years everywhere. Normalize the abnormal, legalize the illegal. If it's done enough, it becomes common and eventually law/rule. Hard to believe that this was allowed? In todays world, not really.
I can't believe this has become a "discussion"... I'm from Hill City South Dakota just down the road from a historical town where a legendary hand was created over bad blood. But history is filled with cheats like Arnold Rothstein, etc and one thing is for sure, there was never a way to simply "unwind it", it ALWAYS ended up being "dealt with" and I believe this is no different.
The game of poker is a time honored tradition, and although it has morphed through many changes, one standard always kept the line... INTEGRITY!! You either played the game with some form of gentlemen's rules, or you found yourself on the wrong end of the trouble that came from cheating....
I hope there is a group that hurries and rises to the surface to correct this issue, because it's NOT going away! It's going to FESTER until something bad becomes of it.
In online poker most sites are bot loaded. One site favors two leagues that they own besides the site itself. Dollars be made by the criminals. / cheaters. Sad but happening all over the place. Defunct league representing a league that no longer exists. In tournaments!! Cuz it was shut down.. wtf! Thank you for giving a shit about the integrity of poker because it seriously matters. Honesty and transparency need to be done and implemented asap!
Cheating is something that stops me from playing much. Too bad it can't be stopped
It’s difficult to explain integrity to people who have none
What's next? Can people use Stockfish in live chess tournaments? 🤔🤦♂️
Daniel is 100% right!!!
You either play based on your skill and brain or don't play. There should be NO outside/AI help.
Really sad but how do they not already have clear rules on this. I get they probably dont care because they are making money either way but when less people play because they know there is cheating they might start to care.
Isn’t it the same if you have your friends standing behind you while you playing blackjack and they are counting cards for you? It’s not illegal but it’s prohibited.
If this is allowed, then you will be seeing Tesla robots playing next year
Daniel is right. If the guy thought solvers were ok then he's an idiot. Also, a cheat! Get him Daniel.
RTA is not an assurance of winning and it may even direct you to the other way. It is a tool applied by your thinking style. Just like stockcharts analysis employed in stock trading, it does not guarantee anything. Only when you trust a certain technical analysis method yourself, it could quickly deliver the result based on your own analysis instead of guaranteeing a positive result. I believe when you employ the thinking of betting on outs/odds, you would even lose quicker than you think while most people think odds calculation is science and definitely deliver you the ultimate winning result. The reason it fails is because the bet size constantly changes from time to time, that adds a dimension on top of everything you can think of, plus the bluffing factor in a real game while logical reasoning is not the only factor of a decision being made.
In a demolition derby, Chrysler Imperials are 'outlawed' . I've seen it go to a drivers vote gaining entry. Needless to say he was the 1st out. Ha! One for all and all for one
Why is this even debatable, somehow noone is arguing whether or not players in chess tournaments should be allowed to consult with a team using solvers, its ridiculous
Part of the blame is on the people who run the WSOP for not writing clear and easily understandable rules regarding the use of the devices. The best rule is banning them from use.
The second best rule is only allowing use during meal breaks/end of the sessions, AWAY from the table
At this stage, we might as well pay AI to play on our behalf, turning offline tournaments into AI battles where anyone can bet on the outcome. Personally, it doesn't bother me much-I’m not a competitive poker player, and I enjoy exploring AI. But it’s like having a reliable friend who can tell you exactly what each player is up to.
PS: I think you should do like chess. No coaching. No electronic device.
Tournamt staff should have been on top of it if it was wrong
It’s insane to even suggest that using computer programs during a live or online match to help you play better is within the bounds of what’s okay. The whole point of when you sit down at a table and wager your money is that everyone’s edge is calculated by their own personal skill level not from some kind of bullshit outside of that table.
online sites are all sketchy except one. The only one that ban, blocks and tried to discourage trackers and bots.
Not Danny's.
Yo, Doug Alan Daniel Brad come play at the Guthrie VFW Post 4578, on Thursday 6:30 or 8:30 the only computer we have is the time clock. If you win you win $20.00 and bragging rights. Bring it, we need practice! Roy.
It's like using an electric bike at the tour de France.
While the computer program used may not have been RTA, the assistance received was in "real time;" it was just provided by a person rather than just a computer. They're trying to argue semantics. If anything it breaks one of the fundamental rules of "One player per hand."
Using AI at a poker table is 100% cheating and brings the spirit of the game into disripute.
Carrying a notepad with tactics or info is not an issue whatsoever since the information on that pad is not being given or altered in real time by a sophisticated computer.
This should not need an explanation.
If a player uses AI you're no longer playing against a player but a machine instead since the real time info being given is influencing your decision making.
The same way a player cannot influence the decision of another or give away information because of collusion.
If I'm at a live poker table and I notice any player using AI at the table, I am calling them on it for sure.
Daniel is 100% right in what he is saying and Poker Ethics/Etiquette must be observed for the good of the game.
Great Vid. Keep it up
Thanks man we appreciate it!
In a live Poker event, there should be (no) outside influencing.
No ear buds, no cell phone, no solvers, no AI Tech period.
The WSOP could eliminate all this by changing a few rules. No TV showings of hands until the tournament is over and no contact by any player with anyone on the rail or anywhere else except those at the table.
That bracelet looks like he's getting ready to d-d-d-duel....
This isn’t complicated, it is a contest of poker skills. Saying AI is part of the evolution for “live” poker is ridiculous.
Also, what I don’t see anyone talking about is coaching the player from the sidelines, the poker rules clearly states “one player per hand!” If Dominic played any part in assisting Tamayo win that is cheating and the prize money returned. And it is abundantly clear Dominic was coaching between hands.
It's not a clash of ideologies. The rules state you cannot use these. If you don't enforce your rules there's no structure for anything. It's not a bold take at all. What is next. Now I can have my buddy hold a telescope that sees my opponents hold cards and sends it to me and use that? Please. There's not supposed to be outside help during a game and these tools are not allowed to be used. The second place guy should sue him for breaking Nevada gaming codes.
Hahaha! Yup... I just don't see huge penalties unless it's 100% blatant... too hard to police... I think the floor needs to be on top of their game and give warnings and in-game penalties like time outs... I definitely don't believe it should result in disqualifications or monetary penalties. I believe McKeenan and Tamayo thought they might get warned, maybe, and then put it away... but they didnt... nothing should happen to Tamayo... The event is official. What he did didn't break a Nevada Gaming Law or Gaming cheating law... but a policy set by the WSOP, like F-Bomb rule etc... How many others' in the Main went to the rail to ask their friend to look up a hand? And ask for advice? Probably alot
They always compare on-line poker with live. They are not comparable. On-line poker you could be wearing a space suit with the sun screen down. The other players wouldn't know.
It should be uses the same rule as in chess, you lose the game if you have a cellphone with you at the table. In chess it doesn’t matter if the cellphone is on or off, the game is lost.
If WSOP rules do not disallow it and the player has used it to gain an edge, whether right or wrong… it’s not cheating. It might be wrong, unsportsmanlike, shady.