for anyone wondering. 0.05 m2 is slightly less then the size of A4 paper, or Letter size in the US. 0.002 m2 is that same paper folded in half 5 times. just to give you some idea of how much the stealth can disguise a jet plane.
@@donkeysunited its the radar cross section. that is an area. Of course it is in square meters. In the video it is written with a superscript 2. I just didn't bother to find out how to do that in the comments. Heck, Supercap mentioned square meters for the unit. How the [sensored] did you miss that.... shigh So A4 paper is 21.0cm by 29.7 cm, or 0.21m by 0.297 m zo the area is 0.21 x 0.297 = 0.06237 square meters which is an 24% overshoot of the given radar cross section of 0.05 square meters. folding it double 5 times halves the area five time so 2^5 = 32 times in total. 0.6237 / 32 = 0.1949... square meters. less than 3% off There happy now.
@@sbjchef more like a butterfly going mach one. How is the speed measured by radar anyway. is it redshift of the signal, i.e. doppler effect? Or a complex matrix calculation of all the reflection points of two following sweeps?
My biggest complaint about these series of videos is about the way attacks are undertaken. No Navy or Air Force would every launch their aircraft in such a piecemeal fashion. The long accepted strategy has been to have aircraft take off and form up over the carrier before attacking as a single wave, or in groups from different directions. You guys actually did something like this when you recreated The Dance of Vampires. The defenders might send their planes out one or two at a time if it's a surprise attack. But when you have a carrier vs carrier battle and both sides are expecting a fight they would launch all planes first out of range then move in as a group. I understand this might not be possible yet with DCS and the AI available but I figured I would give some import. Keep up the amazing work!
With modern radar and missiles, "out of range" is getting to be further than the planes can fly. I do think Cap could send a couple of wing up and have them path, but if the goal is surprise on those ships, with satellite, subs, radar, and other imaging tech, the first wing up is going to set alarm bells all over. Neither side would have much success with an hour warning. All those ships would be at stations and extra gear would be online.
Just found your channel last night, been binging these war game eps, fascinating stuff! The simulation aspect is amazing to see, subbed! P.S. I feel very valued after watching these
These guys make some good videos! I found them a year ago and it has been my main channel ever since. I watch Growling Sidewinder also but am not a member, and watch Long Shot also but not a member. The only one I think deserves to be paid is Grim Reapers. It's fully unscripted unlike the other two channels I mentioned, and CAP comes up with some great Historical Missions and just missions for fun. But they are all educating! I certainly like to know where all of our tax dollars go and how good the kit is that was bought...
This is asking a lot... but i would LOVE to see a new series from you guys. an entire war game in the pacific! each video is an battle like this, that affects the future battles! that would be really cool!
What would be great to include is Chinese land-based anti-ship missiles which are a crucial part of Chinese naval deterence like the DF-17 hypersonic glide vehicles, DF-23 ballistic missiles and maybe older subsonic ones too.
they cannot simulate this, because nobody knows how the hypersonic glider works exactly, especially that part called "whole trajectory maneuver"....what is df-23? df-21 df-26 i think
Not only that, China has >200 landbased HQ-9 systems, the probability that none are deployed in their biggest city where their naval ship yard is also located is practically zero
Retired carrier sailor here - we wouldn't. We often have two carriers in the vicinity - one stationed in Yokosuka and one deployed for WESTPAC. Both would be used to guarantee success. Aircraft were too strung out in this scenario. Limitations of the AI I suppose.
Cap, you NEED to limit the number of respawns a human has in these wars, otherwise the 'science' of the attack is completely disrupted by Dark (as an example) wiping out LRSMs, getting wasted then repeatedly respawning with full fuel and ammo, something no one else can do. I understand the need to keep it interesting or players won't turn up, but a cap of 3 (5?) lives will help keep balance plus encourage pilots to stay alive.
The thing is that human pilots would have done the same thing if they launched later. Yeah, there's an argument about situational awareness, but if someone is attentive to the radio and briefings are legit, by the time he's back up it's about the same.
@grimreapers If that is what they want fine, but a simpler method might just be reduce the number of AI by 3-4 per player. That way they represent the pilots getting up in the air layer instead of freebie aircraft.
@@grimreapers SO glad to hear it! The big battle sims are often the most interesting to watch, and it can be frustrating seeing humans doing human things and messing up the intended result. Can't wait to see upcoming events!
All the Chinese sailors were at an all you can eat Chinese buffet and couldn't make it back to the ships in time. Everyone loves a good Chinese buffet.
Chinese anti-carrier weapons not taken into count: Land-based: DF-21,DF-26 Air-based: H6K + YJ-18, J16, J10 Sea-based: Carrier Task Group + J15, 055 + YJ-21, 052D + YJ-18, 093B Nuclear Sub + YJ-18, 039B AIP Sub
Most importantly electronic warfare is not present. Anti-ship missiles like DF-21 and YJ-18 with only a single terminal active RF seeker can be jammed or spoofed. While both Tomahawk Block Va MST and LRASM have a secondary passive RF seeker that will do well even in a high degree of electronic warfare present.
I’d love to see a futuristic US Navy Arsenal Ship strike to see what would’ve happened if they hadn’t cancelled it. They would be made up if a squadron of 2, and would be stealthy and hard to detect over the horizon. Each ship would carry about 500 missiles, so 1000 between the 2, made up of some sams as well as various attack missiles, like lrasm and probably some futuristic american hypersonic attack missiles. Maybe the type 055 would finally have some competition. Let me know if you see this or think it’s possible!
THE American Hypersonic Attack Cruise Missile should be included in this time frame as well...plus the SM 6 BLOCK IB anti Hypersonic interceptor missile for defense.
The Ohio SSGN kind of took over this role with 154 Tomahawk missiles. And the Ohio is much more stealthy so she can pop up anywhere and fire a missile salvo with no warning. I would like to to see them incorporate that into a DCS scenario
@@blueskiestrevor5200 yes, but if i recall correctly the subs aren’t working very well. If they could get some subs to do a pop up attack with like 500 attack missiles that would be good too.
@@blueskiestrevor5200 maybe it was when they tried to have the subs fire torpedoes, but k remember something with the subs being pretty scuffed 😂 I just thought it would be easier to do it with a surface ship
@Ishawn.Ramaaj I haven't heard anything like that, but I suppose it's possible they have issues. I would still trade 150 missiles fried from a hidden platform vs 500 fired from a ship you can see coming hundreds of miles away. Surprise is the most important element in war. And imagine if they could fit the new LRASM into the Ohio class. Then, you could launch 150 stealth anti-ship missiles with no warning and sink an entire fleet
I think the reason the US kill ratio is so low is that you're sending the planes one at a time to attack a group of enemies. The real Navy would get all the aircraft up, have them circling and tanking to maintain a high fuel load, then send in an overwhelming force, from multiple directions, in a coordinated attack.
Also, AIM-260 is a hypothetical weapons system at least a few years away from ioc. PL-15 has been in service since 2016 and is now fielded in large numbers. The US missile should have been AIM-120D-3
Surely for such an important city like Shanghai there would be some land based HQ-9 and/or S400 and short ranged SAM+CIWS system, also some land based YJ-83/12/18s for coastal defense. We are talking about one of the areas in China closest to Taiwan which has multiple layers of air defense and is one of the most difficult to penetrate areas in the world.
@@Iamabot4708 also the landbased Chinese CIWS placement in this sim is horrible...its behind the ship and probably failing because its being blocked by the ship parked in the harbor. If the first open volley failed to take down the LRSAMs, they're probably not going to try to shoot through their own ship to take down the missiles. The Chinese air defense is set up for failure from the start.
@lmn6335 I wish other Americans felt that way when they arw complaining about losing to Chinese and Russian assets im game. Everything I said simply could be fixed by adding more Chinese assets and games. I'm not asking you to change the radar cross section of anything. I'm not asking you to make any missiles more stronger. I'm just stating that from the get-go. The Chinese were at a major disadvantage. When we did the San Diego match, we mapped out where a bunch of American assets were up-and-down the coast of California and the surrounding states. I just find it kind of odd that we Don't do the same to China.
So, the 0.003 is what a plane looks like to radar in ideal head on configuration. The knife like shapes deflect the radar away so it doesn't bounce back to the emitter - however, once a plane turns its whole flat body towards the emitter (like when evading) its unsurprisingly much less stealthy. Looks like they added spherical harmonics. : )
Viewer Suggestion - do a video where you test detection ranges based on how a plane has it's body oriented to the radar. Controlling the orientation of a stealth jet is a huge tactical consideration, and cool addition to the game.
Where are J11s J16s & J10Cs....? Where are DF series missiles.....??? And in China attack video there were Arleigh Burke (US' mot advance destroyer), whereas this time there's no Type 055 active....?
I think it would be far more realistic to spawn the attacking aircraft in already flying and formed up for the attack. The dribs and drabs arrival of the US aircraft I think had a big impact on the AtoA kills and makes it easier for the Chinese to swat down all the missiles as they straggle in. It might be realistic for a defensive situation when carrier task force is surprised and has to scramble, but the USN certainly wouldn't attack like that.
I think it's a behaviour thing. The F35B had the advantage in radar detection distance on the J20... they would/should have RTB'ed after firing the long range missiles.. espiecially considering what they cost.
I think the stealth capability of the J20 is being overstated according to reports "Current Air Force Chief of Staff General David Goldfein has compared the J-20 to the F-117, which reportedly had a radar cross section of 0.269 square feet, with reports suggesting that the J20 is no better that 0.15 square feet". That is from a report in Defence Weekly in 2018 - I cannot see the Chinese have made major changes to the airframe so it is unlikely that the stealth capability has improved. Further, they reported "The Air Force says the F-35 achieved 110 “kills” against “ nearest equivilent adversary aircraft” in Exercise Northern Lightning and achieved a 20-to-1 kill ratio in the early 2017 Red Flag exercise. Marine F-35Bs reportedly suppressed SAM sites without being targeted." The J20 is a poor cousin to the J35, but you also need to look at the sheet weight of numbers the PLAF and PLAN can field in any conflict, especially when coupled to other airframes they operate.
Have you heard of the US navy unmanned overlord ship concept? it is meant to integrate into manned ship Aegis so they use the SMs from those ships before using up their own. they have already completed the first series of tests and have joined up with manned fleets in the pacific for further testing.
It seemed to track, the F35's lost their advantage of cross section when they got too close to the J20s which is why that ratio closed up really quick.
11:38 F35-B is the Marine Corps variant and the flight deck is significantly smaller on an LHD or LHA and they don’t have catapults so they have to VTOL.
11:38 It is because the F-35’s on onboard USS America (and other landing ships) are F-35B’s. This variant is the VSTOL version of the jet, not the F-35A which is the regular version. Also the F-35B’s onboard the Amphibious Assault ships are operated by the US Marine aviators, NOT US Navy pilots. The “B”’s are meant to support the Marines in an amphibious assault, so they are loaded more more for air-to-ground with only a limited air-to-air capability.
If trying to do a 2025 carrier air wing, it would be 24 Super Hornets and 20 F-35C if it's one of the better equipped carriera. Most will have on average 10 F-35C until more become available. Then 5-7 Growlers and 4-5 Hawkeyes. Amongst other helos. For the America class amphibious assault ship, 20 F-35B is fine. If it were a mixed complement, it'd probably have 6 F-35B and a few AH-1Z for attack.
Hey cap, i have a really dumb question, is it possible to put sam missles on a plane? And if so, would it be effective to have say a sa-10 grumble missle fired from a plane instead of a ground launch, thanks for your time!
To be honest, this is too untrue. Currently, besides aircraft carriers, the technology and capabilities of China's navy surface vessels have caught up with or even surpassed those of the United States, and they are still in rapid construction. The United States, due to de industrialization, has insufficient shipbuilding capabilities, and the old fleet of American ships cannot be updated and maintained in a timely manner, which is a serious problem. In the western Pacific, we still have to face China's multi-layered and dense missile defense system, and the US supply line is too long and fragile. It is difficult for the US military to penetrate the second island chain relying on aircraft carrier fleets, let alone launch an attack at such a close position in the first island chain and still win.
Okay Cap, orders are in: Now with the new update, you aren't allowed to go to sleep for a couple of months. We are going need to see some rematches and some new scenarios of AC naval battles between the major nations.
Hey, first, love your videos, I am danger of spending more time watching you guys playing DCS than myself actually playing DCS. One thing: so often the carrier planes get stuck taking off and I see you picking up an F15 or something and gunning them down. Question: Have you tried just having an M163 Vulcan on deck and using that instead?
Here's my idea for a missile. You make a fairly large decoy missile that flies fast toward the enemy and then goes into limp mode. Once it enters their observable radar it flies much slower and tries to stay at the periphery of their range, maybe flying sideways. We'll call this missile the "Platypus". It has the ability to change its radar signature. It can look like an anti-ship missile, a B-52, or any other high value target. Once an enemy missile gets close enough to really knock it out of the sky, it goes super stealth and enters glider mode. Make it as stealthy as possible from all angles, and uses body lift alone to stay airborne. Once the threat has passed it morphs back into a B-52 or F-15 or anything else that would cause them to launch all their missiles at it. Meanwhile you have several more of these in the air at any given time, so there's always a better target "over there" for the enemy missiles to try to lock onto. Yes, human intervention would be able to deduce that these are not real B-52's converting into F-15's, but any automated defense would be perplexed by it. You send these out in advance of the real attack force to deplete the enemy defenses. And if a few platypi get shot down, oh well.
Greetings to ALL Grim Reapers!! I've been playing catch-up over the last few weeks and watching as the core game and your tactics have been evolving, very nice to see and certainly much more realistic now. A few points to mention, dammit Cap I DO watch the videos all the way to the end. Also, drink more Lemon/Ginger tea (with honey) and try some zinc tablets. Bird, Poushh, Dark, Simba - excellent flying, though maybe you should decide in game between yourselves who is to target the Awacs each session? Also, is it possible to dedicate one person for each side as Naval/Ground commander? Then tactics/strategy can change and update in-game? Finally - great job over-all, being a former military and avid board games strategist this is really nice to see everything in colour, motion and with nice details!!
Noticed that the Reagan was only using 3 catapults. Any reason for that? Using all 4 Cats would speed up the launch rate, meaning more aircraft airborn and ready to fight sooner.
If I used cat 4 then the hornets tend to get stuck/bugged. I cured that by restricting to 3 cats. Sadly this reduces launch rates, but at least no planes getting stuck on cats.
If it takes 200 MALDs to drain all the SAMs in order to get LRASMs through on target, what is the point of the LRASM? Why not just launch an equal number of ER Harpoons or NSMs after draining SAMs with MALDs
This is like one “little battle” the first island chain that contains China spans nearly the entire planet earth from north to south, from Japan to Australia… hundreds of bases and assets, I get the game… but it would be unbelievably huge
@@rileymorrisroe6743 Okay so I read the whitepaper on the new DCS update. all they've done in incorporated a 'randomising' factor for RCS so that it spikes up and down periodically. It has nothing to do with frequency or aspect (disappointing) They've also incorporated a 'background noise' feature where very low observable aircraft can blend in with the background radar noise making them effectively invisible at all but point blank. Which might be realistic if you had frequency and aspect effects. But totally breaks the game without it. It would explain why LRASMs were only sometimes engaged but not always. And why J20s were sometimes shooting down F35s at ranges they shouldn't be able to see them at. Honestly if they just added RCS aspect, alot of the BS that makes people angry in these sims would go away. A F35 is over 100x more visible from the side than it is from the front. So IRL it would be detected at 3.5x the distance from side on. This is where tactics would actually make a difference and a Flanking or pincer attack would totally decimate any 5th gen airwing.
hypothetically this was a bolt out of the blue attack as the US could legally sail 500nm from the chinese coast under the premise of making a port call to south korea before opening fire. But during wartime, no a carrier group is not getting within 1000nm without being tracked.
3:45 For those unaware, 0.002 m² is about 3 inches across, or the size of a North American hummingbird, or a European goldcrest kinglet. Or, Aussies might know the Spotted Pardalote.
ah yes...and the ground radar technician seeing a hummingbird going mach 1 is just going to dismiss it lmfao...stop hyping up american stealth as if its invincible...we saw a less capable system shoot down an f117 a few years ago...imagine what new ones will do
@@chargedx5768 I'm sorry, where did I mention American stealth? I was giving a visual reference for those who, like me, had no real concept of how large 0.002 sq meters is. You may need to curb your prejudice before commenting with the big boys again.
@@chargedx5768 I agree with you in principle, that stealth (all stealth) is not invincible, but the F117 example is innacurate, and theres never been an instance where a stealth jet has been shot down as a result of its stealth capabilities failing. Also, i dont think thats the point the guy above is making, as i see this argument of 'ground radar technician seeing a Hummingbird.........' but its just a strawman at the end of the day, the RCS isnt to fool the radar operater, its too fool the radar itself and stay off of the radar for as long as possible so that it can get as close as possible, all stealth has its limits and so even and F-22 will be continuously detected (probrably tracked, but thats more up to debate) at anywhere under 30-50 miles. So the whole point in stealth is to prevent the radar operater from seeing the aircraft for as long as possible, and then to prevent a solid lock when it is seen. (Active seekers on SAMs also need to see the aircraft). The point of a small RCS is too enable the aircraft to avoid radar beams at long ranges so that it can get well within missiles range.
the 052Ds couldnt use their CIWS missiles, the first one barely fired a small percentage of its load would expect the only ships defending the port to be positioned so that they can fire their CIWS SAMs, especially after running out of the long range SAMs
Depending upon how well the Chinese interfaces and data links are, the J-20's with no remaining misisles could begin to return to base and VID the MALD tracks along the way for the land based SAM's so the SAM's won't bother to engage tracks positively VID'd as MALD?
If you only count containers, then Shanghai is number one in the world in terms of container throughput. But if you calculate the total cargo tonnage(Including oil, LNG, etc.), then it's China's Ningbo port first, Singapore's second, and Shanghai's third.@@primeradiant827
In real life however, it's not like this. And if rumor was right, US Navy right now have BACKLOG of ship maintenance. By the way, the Chinese military strategists will not forget their anti-ship missiles' deployment for any possibility.
FYI because you said you didn't know why they do - the F35B is made for the LHD's, and having vtol allows it to take off vertically on a ship deck with no catapult carrying much more capacity than it normally would be able to.
They aren't able to fully utilise VTOL with a full combat load though. They would need to use the deck of the LHD for a short take off, and likewise for landing unless they'd burnt off a lot of fuel on mission and were returning much lighter.
This reminds me of the book "Sea Strike" by James H. Cobb, only more realistic. In that book, a single Zumwalt class destroyer sails into the Yangtze river Delta, destroys a submarine, and sails out. Absolutely ridiculous scenario in an equally ridiculous book.
56:01 That friends, is the unique mating call of a wild "Cap." This endangered species is known to demonatize himself up to thirty-times per hour of video footage. Thank you for the video. Some random comments! There are tpyically 5-6 Growlers on a carrier, which should honestly be placed into the sim as additional F-18's since they use the same airframe and are equipped with the same AIM-120s, except their default loadout also includes an extra pod or two and perhapa some HARMs as well. The rest of the carrier air wing is largely taken up by 10+ helicopters. If the carrier wanted to max-out their fighter compliment, they could probably fit on 90ish, but any more than that and I believe it would be for ferrying purposes only snd lack the capability to conduct flight ops. I'm fairly confident the LRASM is stealthy enough to defeat Chinese radar. Is it possible to have the MALDs attack targets? The kinetic damage can still do quite a a bit and any remaining rocket propellant.
for anyone wondering. 0.05 m2 is slightly less then the size of A4 paper, or Letter size in the US. 0.002 m2 is that same paper folded in half 5 times.
just to give you some idea of how much the stealth can disguise a jet plane.
Thank you.
as a responsible radar operator I would tell my boss that I had a bumble bee doing mach 1
0.05m = 5cm = 2"
5cm x 5cm is a lot smaller than a sheet of A4 paper.
I don't know if he's confusing m2 with square meters.
Still very small.
@@donkeysunited its the radar cross section. that is an area. Of course it is in square meters. In the video it is written with a superscript 2. I just didn't bother to find out how to do that in the comments. Heck, Supercap mentioned square meters for the unit. How the [sensored] did you miss that.... shigh
So A4 paper is 21.0cm by 29.7 cm, or 0.21m by 0.297 m zo the area is 0.21 x 0.297 = 0.06237 square meters which is an 24% overshoot of the given radar cross section of 0.05 square meters. folding it double 5 times halves the area five time so 2^5 = 32 times in total.
0.6237 / 32 = 0.1949... square meters. less than 3% off
There happy now.
@@sbjchef more like a butterfly going mach one. How is the speed measured by radar anyway. is it redshift of the signal, i.e. doppler effect? Or a complex matrix calculation of all the reflection points of two following sweeps?
My biggest complaint about these series of videos is about the way attacks are undertaken. No Navy or Air Force would every launch their aircraft in such a piecemeal fashion. The long accepted strategy has been to have aircraft take off and form up over the carrier before attacking as a single wave, or in groups from different directions. You guys actually did something like this when you recreated The Dance of Vampires. The defenders might send their planes out one or two at a time if it's a surprise attack. But when you have a carrier vs carrier battle and both sides are expecting a fight they would launch all planes first out of range then move in as a group.
I understand this might not be possible yet with DCS and the AI available but I figured I would give some import.
Keep up the amazing work!
With modern radar and missiles, "out of range" is getting to be further than the planes can fly. I do think Cap could send a couple of wing up and have them path, but if the goal is surprise on those ships, with satellite, subs, radar, and other imaging tech, the first wing up is going to set alarm bells all over. Neither side would have much success with an hour warning. All those ships would be at stations and extra gear would be online.
@@up4open The F35s would definitely be out of detectable range. They could have plenty of time to get in formation undetected.
@@up4openThe narrator just literally said, “…I don’t know anymore…” when referring to RADAR. So, what?
Just found your channel last night, been binging these war game eps, fascinating stuff! The simulation aspect is amazing to see, subbed!
P.S.
I feel very valued after watching these
Yeah these are great to watch!
Welcome. Enjoy!
Welcome to the GR family 😊
These guys make some good videos! I found them a year ago and it has been my main channel ever since. I watch Growling Sidewinder also but am not a member, and watch Long Shot also but not a member. The only one I think deserves to be paid is Grim Reapers. It's fully unscripted unlike the other two channels I mentioned, and CAP comes up with some great Historical Missions and just missions for fun. But they are all educating! I certainly like to know where all of our tax dollars go and how good the kit is that was bought...
This is asking a lot... but i would LOVE to see a new series from you guys. an entire war game in the pacific! each video is an battle like this, that affects the future battles! that would be really cool!
What would be great to include is Chinese land-based anti-ship missiles which are a crucial part of Chinese naval deterence like the DF-17 hypersonic glide vehicles, DF-23 ballistic missiles and maybe older subsonic ones too.
they cannot simulate this, because nobody knows how the hypersonic glider works exactly, especially that part called "whole trajectory maneuver"....what is df-23? df-21 df-26 i think
It's not fun to finish the battle in 3 minutes
Not only that, China has >200 landbased HQ-9 systems, the probability that none are deployed in their biggest city where their naval ship yard is also located is practically zero
How do you think they're gonna manage to bring glide vehicles in DCS lmao
@@lmn6335🤣🤣
Shanghai was my favourite city when i visited China in 2007. Lovely and warm but with a nice sea breeze
Hard to imagine the US only sends one carrier. Heck, we've got two near Israel at the moment.
Maybe this was a surprise attack? Otherwise all the ships in harbour would have been manned.
they would probably send stuff from Hawaii, Guam, Thailand...
@@Solidus286 you would probably have china move hundreds of AA batteries to shore and man all ships at that point
@@flyingtanks9313 you're probably right
Retired carrier sailor here - we wouldn't. We often have two carriers in the vicinity - one stationed in Yokosuka and one deployed for WESTPAC. Both would be used to guarantee success. Aircraft were too strung out in this scenario. Limitations of the AI I suppose.
Cap, you NEED to limit the number of respawns a human has in these wars, otherwise the 'science' of the attack is completely disrupted by Dark (as an example) wiping out LRSMs, getting wasted then repeatedly respawning with full fuel and ammo, something no one else can do. I understand the need to keep it interesting or players won't turn up, but a cap of 3 (5?) lives will help keep balance plus encourage pilots to stay alive.
I was about to post the same thing. It's stupid. No more re spawns when the AI are destroyed or gone.
The thing is that human pilots would have done the same thing if they launched later. Yeah, there's an argument about situational awareness, but if someone is attentive to the radio and briefings are legit, by the time he's back up it's about the same.
Way ahead of you. Going to remove the humans from these big games altogether. They don't really want to play these anyways.
@grimreapers If that is what they want fine, but a simpler method might just be reduce the number of AI by 3-4 per player. That way they represent the pilots getting up in the air layer instead of freebie aircraft.
@@grimreapers SO glad to hear it! The big battle sims are often the most interesting to watch, and it can be frustrating seeing humans doing human things and messing up the intended result. Can't wait to see upcoming events!
Watched all the way through! Loved this one! Thank you all for these awesome videos!
Easily one of my favorite GR vids in a while. Loved it and the new updates seemed to make quite the difference in some aspects.
I wish DCS would have a naval war update, also those tracers look soo good and way more entertaining
All the Chinese sailors were at an all you can eat Chinese buffet and couldn't make it back to the ships in time. Everyone loves a good Chinese buffet.
What can I say other than lovely cap, great work 👏
Love the wargames Cap et al. Hope CH is working on a DDG(X) Model for the even more futuristic naval battles.
agreed
Unfortunately the slow build rate of US Navy, we won’t see it until 2035 at best
2030@@dexlab7539
I love your channel so much my dear British Friend. Love from France
Oui oui hon hon hon 🐸
Chinese anti-carrier weapons not taken into count:
Land-based: DF-21,DF-26
Air-based: H6K + YJ-18, J16, J10
Sea-based: Carrier Task Group + J15, 055 + YJ-21, 052D + YJ-18, 093B Nuclear Sub + YJ-18, 039B AIP Sub
This is the same for both sides. Limits of dcs
Most importantly electronic warfare is not present. Anti-ship missiles like DF-21 and YJ-18 with only a single terminal active RF seeker can be jammed or spoofed. While both Tomahawk Block Va MST and LRASM have a secondary passive RF seeker that will do well even in a high degree of electronic warfare present.
I’d love to see a futuristic US Navy Arsenal Ship strike to see what would’ve happened if they hadn’t cancelled it. They would be made up if a squadron of 2, and would be stealthy and hard to detect over the horizon. Each ship would carry about 500 missiles, so 1000 between the 2, made up of some sams as well as various attack missiles, like lrasm and probably some futuristic american hypersonic attack missiles. Maybe the type 055 would finally have some competition. Let me know if you see this or think it’s possible!
THE American Hypersonic Attack Cruise Missile should be included in this time frame as well...plus the SM 6 BLOCK IB anti Hypersonic interceptor missile for defense.
The Ohio SSGN kind of took over this role with 154 Tomahawk missiles. And the Ohio is much more stealthy so she can pop up anywhere and fire a missile salvo with no warning. I would like to to see them incorporate that into a DCS scenario
@@blueskiestrevor5200 yes, but if i recall correctly the subs aren’t working very well. If they could get some subs to do a pop up attack with like 500 attack missiles that would be good too.
@@blueskiestrevor5200 maybe it was when they tried to have the subs fire torpedoes, but k remember something with the subs being pretty scuffed 😂 I just thought it would be easier to do it with a surface ship
@Ishawn.Ramaaj I haven't heard anything like that, but I suppose it's possible they have issues. I would still trade 150 missiles fried from a hidden platform vs 500 fired from a ship you can see coming hundreds of miles away. Surprise is the most important element in war. And imagine if they could fit the new LRASM into the Ohio class. Then, you could launch 150 stealth anti-ship missiles with no warning and sink an entire fleet
It might be long, but it's super cool! Of course we are watching all of it!
I think the reason the US kill ratio is so low is that you're sending the planes one at a time to attack a group of enemies. The real Navy would get all the aircraft up, have them circling and tanking to maintain a high fuel load, then send in an overwhelming force, from multiple directions, in a coordinated attack.
Also, AIM-260 is a hypothetical weapons system at least a few years away from ioc. PL-15 has been in service since 2016 and is now fielded in large numbers.
The US missile should have been AIM-120D-3
Great video, Cap. It was well worth the length of video!
Hey Grim just started watching your videos, they’re awesome!
What about the DF series of anti-ship missiles? In order for the US 7th Fleet to gain an advantage I guess Grim did a lot of work.
'Cap', your social rating score has gone down 100 points.
Xi not happy 😂
Lol Surprised the 50cent aren’t in here for easy money.
+100 cia credit
@@joek7031 对
Dang it!
China has over 700 Long Range SAM systems (HQ-9, S-300, etc.) on it's coast. Only 4 HQ-22 is quite unrealistic
He makes unrealistic battles which only favor America that’s what he is.
@@xxxdddn1202Not true - Cap has a bunch of videos where US/British lose. You need to watch more videos to see that
别人就是想骗出脑袋一热的白痴透露情报在
@@dexlab7539But he definitely wants China to lose. He's cheerleading this whole video
Surely for such an important city like Shanghai there would be some land based HQ-9 and/or S400 and short ranged SAM+CIWS system, also some land based YJ-83/12/18s for coastal defense. We are talking about one of the areas in China closest to Taiwan which has multiple layers of air defense and is one of the most difficult to penetrate areas in the world.
100% what I was thinking the Chinese won't allow the Americans to get that close to their coast and bot have more land based sam sites.
@@Iamabot4708 also the landbased Chinese CIWS placement in this sim is horrible...its behind the ship and probably failing because its being blocked by the ship parked in the harbor. If the first open volley failed to take down the LRSAMs, they're probably not going to try to shoot through their own ship to take down the missiles. The Chinese air defense is set up for failure from the start.
Just a game, just have fun, this kind of fighting has no reference value
@lmn6335 I wish other Americans felt that way when they arw complaining about losing to Chinese and Russian assets im game. Everything I said simply could be fixed by adding more Chinese assets and games. I'm not asking you to change the radar cross section of anything. I'm not asking you to make any missiles more stronger. I'm just stating that from the get-go. The Chinese were at a major disadvantage. When we did the San Diego match, we mapped out where a bunch of American assets were up-and-down the coast of California and the surrounding states. I just find it kind of odd that we Don't do the same to China.
@@lmn6335its boring when one side is set up for failure
So, the 0.003 is what a plane looks like to radar in ideal head on configuration. The knife like shapes deflect the radar away so it doesn't bounce back to the emitter - however, once a plane turns its whole flat body towards the emitter (like when evading) its unsurprisingly much less stealthy.
Looks like they added spherical harmonics. : )
Viewer Suggestion - do a video where you test detection ranges based on how a plane has it's body oriented to the radar.
Controlling the orientation of a stealth jet is a huge tactical consideration, and cool addition to the game.
Where are J11s J16s & J10Cs....?
Where are DF series missiles.....??? And in China attack video there were Arleigh Burke (US' mot advance destroyer), whereas this time there's no Type 055 active....?
I think the Arleigh Burkes should have been launching BGM-109 Tomahawks as well against targets like the air defence.
I don't think DCS can do that. (yet). Otherwise I agree.
Tomahawk block iv and v can target ships as well block v can target them while they're underway
Absolutely. Chose a bad time to make this battle, currently Tomahawks not working in game, just spin in circles, didn't want to wait for game fix.
I think it would be far more realistic to spawn the attacking aircraft in already flying and formed up for the attack. The dribs and drabs arrival of the US aircraft I think had a big impact on the AtoA kills and makes it easier for the Chinese to swat down all the missiles as they straggle in. It might be realistic for a defensive situation when carrier task force is surprised and has to scramble, but the USN certainly wouldn't attack like that.
I think it's a behaviour thing. The F35B had the advantage in radar detection distance on the J20... they would/should have RTB'ed after firing the long range missiles.. espiecially considering what they cost.
you mean they wouldn't just keep charging headlong into the range where they could be seen and shot at? gasp
Haven't seen Violet in a while, she leave the group?
Nope, they have life stuff going on 😮
I think the stealth capability of the J20 is being overstated according to reports "Current Air Force Chief of Staff General David Goldfein has compared the J-20 to the F-117, which reportedly had a radar cross section of 0.269 square feet, with reports suggesting that the J20 is no better that 0.15 square feet". That is from a report in Defence Weekly in 2018 - I cannot see the Chinese have made major changes to the airframe so it is unlikely that the stealth capability has improved. Further, they reported "The Air Force says the F-35 achieved 110 “kills” against “ nearest equivilent adversary aircraft” in Exercise Northern Lightning and achieved a 20-to-1 kill ratio in the early 2017 Red Flag exercise. Marine F-35Bs reportedly suppressed SAM sites without being targeted." The J20 is a poor cousin to the J35, but you also need to look at the sheet weight of numbers the PLAF and PLAN can field in any conflict, especially when coupled to other airframes they operate.
I'm guessing from the comments on the J-20 kinematics your using the WS-10 engined variants, not the newer WS-15 versions?
Have you heard of the US navy unmanned overlord ship concept? it is meant to integrate into manned ship Aegis so they use the SMs from those ships before using up their own. they have already completed the first series of tests and have joined up with manned fleets in the pacific for further testing.
It seemed to track, the F35's lost their advantage of cross section when they got too close to the J20s which is why that ratio closed up really quick.
A good time as always!
Quote of the day “don’t shoot the ships”-Japan
I think the reason a bunch of F-35s started dying they didn't RTB after running out of long range missiles
Nice successor to the SR-71! Love all the control surfaces!
do you have a link to the assets you use?
They’d launch every tomahawk torpedoe from subs before launching a single plane from a carrier
11:38 F35-B is the Marine Corps variant and the flight deck is significantly smaller on an LHD or LHA and they don’t have catapults so they have to VTOL.
No the stovl short takeoff vertical land. They tilt nozzle down 45 degrees full flaps lift fans and do a short takeoff. Plenty of videos to see online
11:38 It is because the F-35’s on onboard USS America (and other landing ships) are F-35B’s. This variant is the VSTOL version of the jet, not the F-35A which is the regular version. Also the F-35B’s onboard the Amphibious Assault ships are operated by the US Marine aviators, NOT US Navy pilots. The “B”’s are meant to support the Marines in an amphibious assault, so they are loaded more more for air-to-ground with only a limited air-to-air capability.
I watched till the end ;) 👍👍
Yay! The hardcore.
@@grimreapers 😁✌
If trying to do a 2025 carrier air wing, it would be 24 Super Hornets and 20 F-35C if it's one of the better equipped carriera. Most will have on average 10 F-35C until more become available. Then 5-7 Growlers and 4-5 Hawkeyes. Amongst other helos.
For the America class amphibious assault ship, 20 F-35B is fine. If it were a mixed complement, it'd probably have 6 F-35B and a few AH-1Z for attack.
Snoop Dog and Chicken - LOVED it 😂❤
Well that was fun !
That was flippin' epic!!
Actually, the fujian may have hq 10s and 1130 ciws in addition to medium range systems.
The profile of the J-20 reminds me of the Firefox plane from the movie.
Hey cap, i have a really dumb question, is it possible to put sam missles on a plane? And if so, would it be effective to have say a sa-10 grumble missle fired from a plane instead of a ground launch, thanks for your time!
Is there any reason you didn't send in the tomahawks from the cruisers as well? Seems like they should send tomahawks with the decoys to me.
Absolutely. Chose a bad time to make this battle, currently Tomahawks not working in game, just spin in circles, didn't want to wait for game fix.
@@grimreapers that's a good reason.
To be honest, this is too untrue. Currently, besides aircraft carriers, the technology and capabilities of China's navy surface vessels have caught up with or even surpassed those of the United States, and they are still in rapid construction. The United States, due to de industrialization, has insufficient shipbuilding capabilities, and the old fleet of American ships cannot be updated and maintained in a timely manner, which is a serious problem. In the western Pacific, we still have to face China's multi-layered and dense missile defense system, and the US supply line is too long and fragile. It is difficult for the US military to penetrate the second island chain relying on aircraft carrier fleets, let alone launch an attack at such a close position in the first island chain and still win.
I wonder what the new code will do with that thrustmaster competition.
Why no SEAD or Wild Weasle missions wirh the new Harm replacements. To take out the not at all Patriot batteries?
Okay Cap, orders are in: Now with the new update, you aren't allowed to go to sleep for a couple of months. We are going need to see some rematches and some new scenarios of AC naval battles between the major nations.
Cap: "This will be the longest video in the world and no one will watch it"
Me, Mostly Drunk: "I'm watchin' it!"
Hey, first, love your videos, I am danger of spending more time watching you guys playing DCS than myself actually playing DCS.
One thing: so often the carrier planes get stuck taking off and I see you picking up an F15 or something and gunning them down.
Question:
Have you tried just having an M163 Vulcan on deck and using that instead?
Awesome stuff as always. I hope the people's champ feels better soon!
Here's my idea for a missile. You make a fairly large decoy missile that flies fast toward the enemy and then goes into limp mode. Once it enters their observable radar it flies much slower and tries to stay at the periphery of their range, maybe flying sideways. We'll call this missile the "Platypus".
It has the ability to change its radar signature. It can look like an anti-ship missile, a B-52, or any other high value target.
Once an enemy missile gets close enough to really knock it out of the sky, it goes super stealth and enters glider mode. Make it as stealthy as possible from all angles, and uses body lift alone to stay airborne.
Once the threat has passed it morphs back into a B-52 or F-15 or anything else that would cause them to launch all their missiles at it.
Meanwhile you have several more of these in the air at any given time, so there's always a better target "over there" for the enemy missiles to try to lock onto.
Yes, human intervention would be able to deduce that these are not real B-52's converting into F-15's, but any automated defense would be perplexed by it.
You send these out in advance of the real attack force to deplete the enemy defenses. And if a few platypi get shot down, oh well.
Greetings to ALL Grim Reapers!! I've been playing catch-up over the last few weeks and watching as the core game and your tactics have been evolving, very nice to see and certainly much more realistic now. A few points to mention, dammit Cap I DO watch the videos all the way to the end. Also, drink more Lemon/Ginger tea (with honey) and try some zinc tablets. Bird, Poushh, Dark, Simba - excellent flying, though maybe you should decide in game between yourselves who is to target the Awacs each session? Also, is it possible to dedicate one person for each side as Naval/Ground commander? Then tactics/strategy can change and update in-game? Finally - great job over-all, being a former military and avid board games strategist this is really nice to see everything in colour, motion and with nice details!!
Video Viewer Valued!
the growlers can be mounted with aim-120s only they end wing tip jamers cant be replaced by aim-9s
47:37 That's probabbly the Ground effect , lift is bigger when close to ground which probabbly pushed the rockets couple feet in the air !
Noticed that the Reagan was only using 3 catapults. Any reason for that? Using all 4 Cats would speed up the launch rate, meaning more aircraft airborn and ready to fight sooner.
If I used cat 4 then the hornets tend to get stuck/bugged. I cured that by restricting to 3 cats. Sadly this reduces launch rates, but at least no planes getting stuck on cats.
Sounds good. Thank you for the explanation Cap. As always, great work by you and the Boys!
If it takes 200 MALDs to drain all the SAMs in order to get LRASMs through on target, what is the point of the LRASM? Why not just launch an equal number of ER Harpoons or NSMs after draining SAMs with MALDs
Leaving out submarines is another major shortcoming of this exercise.
This is like one “little battle” the first island chain that contains China spans nearly the entire planet earth from north to south, from Japan to Australia… hundreds of bases and assets, I get the game… but it would be unbelievably huge
very cool. thanks guys
Good times! Now let's just redo everything you've ever done, so we can see all the new stuff work! Easy peasy ;)
I'd like to see some more in depth testing on what you meant by the stealth mechanic of the core game being changed.
I agree, it realises steath, and will make it these aircraft more vulnerable.
@@rileymorrisroe6743 Okay so I read the whitepaper on the new DCS update. all they've done in incorporated a 'randomising' factor for RCS so that it spikes up and down periodically. It has nothing to do with frequency or aspect (disappointing)
They've also incorporated a 'background noise' feature where very low observable aircraft can blend in with the background radar noise making them effectively invisible at all but point blank. Which might be realistic if you had frequency and aspect effects. But totally breaks the game without it.
It would explain why LRASMs were only sometimes engaged but not always. And why J20s were sometimes shooting down F35s at ranges they shouldn't be able to see them at.
Honestly if they just added RCS aspect, alot of the BS that makes people angry in these sims would go away. A F35 is over 100x more visible from the side than it is from the front. So IRL it would be detected at 3.5x the distance from side on. This is where tactics would actually make a difference and a Flanking or pincer attack would totally decimate any 5th gen airwing.
@@hughmungus2760 Mostly agreed
People in Texas when he says 40 miles is huge. "Austin to Bastrop? Sheee .. "
How about the Wright Brothers' Kitty Hawk Flyer vs the CMS Virginia and USS Monitor?
Do they get to sneak in unrealistically too? Ill see as i watch the video. This is not a criticism by the by i am just wondering if they did ;p
hypothetically this was a bolt out of the blue attack as the US could legally sail 500nm from the chinese coast under the premise of making a port call to south korea before opening fire. But during wartime, no a carrier group is not getting within 1000nm without being tracked.
#4 Is Byron Scott. He was of the deadliest to ever play, along with being one of the best finishers.
Very cool video. Only question is why is 7th fleet only the Reagan CSG. I sailed in 7th recently and I’m on a different carrier.
Love the missions you create, but you could've used B2s and B1s to send in tons of missiles within this mission.
Today I learned that only the F-35A has internal 25mm. So carrier ones can choose non stealth or to be like the original Phantoms and without a gun.
In reality, there'd also be F22s flying CAP and, likely, a C130/C17 or two launching Rapid Dragon, even as decoy missiles to deplete SAMs.
When are you doing a live event, even if it's just a set up
Friday 1900UTC *GR twitch
Sat 1900UTC *Thrustmaster Twitch
Sun 1900UTC *Thrustmaster Twitch
Mon 1900UTC *GR twitch
3:45 For those unaware, 0.002 m² is about 3 inches across, or the size of a North American hummingbird, or a European goldcrest kinglet. Or, Aussies might know the Spotted Pardalote.
ah yes...and the ground radar technician seeing a hummingbird going mach 1 is just going to dismiss it lmfao...stop hyping up american stealth as if its invincible...we saw a less capable system shoot down an f117 a few years ago...imagine what new ones will do
@@chargedx5768
I'm sorry, where did I mention American stealth? I was giving a visual reference for those who, like me, had no real concept of how large 0.002 sq meters is. You may need to curb your prejudice before commenting with the big boys again.
@@chargedx5768Cap himself said, "0.002 sq meters, *_however big that is, I don't even know."_*
@@chargedx5768 I agree with you in principle, that stealth (all stealth) is not invincible, but the F117 example is innacurate, and theres never been an instance where a stealth jet has been shot down as a result of its stealth capabilities failing.
Also, i dont think thats the point the guy above is making, as i see this argument of 'ground radar technician seeing a Hummingbird.........' but its just a strawman at the end of the day, the RCS isnt to fool the radar operater, its too fool the radar itself and stay off of the radar for as long as possible so that it can get as close as possible, all stealth has its limits and so even and F-22 will be continuously detected (probrably tracked, but thats more up to debate) at anywhere under 30-50 miles. So the whole point in stealth is to prevent the radar operater from seeing the aircraft for as long as possible, and then to prevent a solid lock when it is seen. (Active seekers on SAMs also need to see the aircraft).
The point of a small RCS is too enable the aircraft to avoid radar beams at long ranges so that it can get well within missiles range.
I understand diversion, but why would non-stealth attack first, giving up the element of surprise so much sooner?
the 052Ds couldnt use their CIWS missiles, the first one barely fired a small percentage of its load
would expect the only ships defending the port to be positioned so that they can fire their CIWS SAMs, especially after running out of the long range SAMs
Depending upon how well the Chinese interfaces and data links are, the J-20's with no remaining misisles could begin to return to base and VID the MALD tracks along the way for the land based SAM's so the SAM's won't bother to engage tracks positively VID'd as MALD?
34:10 that one MALD that just flew right past everything and off into the sunset…
DF-27 : ?
Obviously, Shanghai, the world's 3rd largest port has almost 0 anti-ship capability. All fleets are free to come and go. Including Somali pirates.
Wait what? 3rd largest? It's the 1st largest.
If you only count containers, then Shanghai is number one in the world in terms of container throughput.
But if you calculate the total cargo tonnage(Including oil, LNG, etc.), then it's China's Ningbo port first, Singapore's second, and Shanghai's third.@@primeradiant827
@@primeradiant827Yeah and by quite a bit
Quote for the day "its a Long One, Its a Big One, its Important" if the loadout was all 260 for use, they would have a bigger kill load.
In real life however, it's not like this. And if rumor was right, US Navy right now have BACKLOG of ship maintenance.
By the way, the Chinese military strategists will not forget their anti-ship missiles' deployment for any possibility.
hard to imagine that you're seriously discussing the feasibility to poke a hornet's nest with bare hands.
FYI because you said you didn't know why they do - the F35B is made for the LHD's, and having vtol allows it to take off vertically on a ship deck with no catapult carrying much more capacity than it normally would be able to.
They aren't able to fully utilise VTOL with a full combat load though. They would need to use the deck of the LHD for a short take off, and likewise for landing unless they'd burnt off a lot of fuel on mission and were returning much lighter.
This reminds me of the book "Sea Strike" by James H. Cobb, only more realistic. In that book, a single Zumwalt class destroyer sails into the Yangtze river Delta, destroys a submarine, and sails out. Absolutely ridiculous scenario in an equally ridiculous book.
your all out of misslies my brother you are the missile
56:01 That friends, is the unique mating call of a wild "Cap." This endangered species is known to demonatize himself up to thirty-times per hour of video footage.
Thank you for the video. Some random comments!
There are tpyically 5-6 Growlers on a carrier, which should honestly be placed into the sim as additional F-18's since they use the same airframe and are equipped with the same AIM-120s, except their default loadout also includes an extra pod or two and perhapa some HARMs as well. The rest of the carrier air wing is largely taken up by 10+ helicopters. If the carrier wanted to max-out their fighter compliment, they could probably fit on 90ish, but any more than that and I believe it would be for ferrying purposes only snd lack the capability to conduct flight ops.
I'm fairly confident the LRASM is stealthy enough to defeat Chinese radar. Is it possible to have the MALDs attack targets? The kinetic damage can still do quite a a bit and any remaining rocket propellant.
nothing is stealthy enough to beat ground radar buddy...a paper wieght going mach 3.5 on radar isnt stealthy...
Thanks J
@@chargedx5768 Just not how stealth and radar work but ok lol.
0:00 since when is The Atlantic Ocean between Japan and China?
45:45 the missiles aren't advanced enough to attack from multiple angles?
I am doing very well.
And thank you for asking 👍🏻
So much spent on cruise missiles and they don't avoid or have ECM so sad
CCp tech looks like USA tech humm. Lifting body tech from the F-22A.
I was wondering what obummer was doing with all the trips to china. Selling state secrets. He is a manchurian candidate. Mr. and mr. obummer both are.
God Rods would be no problem to take everything out.
Get well soon Simba.
What would be the equivalent for guam?