Sharing some edgy opinions on horror and jump scares. ►DOWNLOAD MY MUSIC joy-less.bandc... ►SUBSCRIBE TO SUPPORT THE CHANNEL / subscription_. . ►FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER / joylessyt
This is the last thing I'll say about this: There are people out there that enjoy jump scares (I'm not one of them). So if we rid the world of "cheap and lazy jump scares"... Where are they supposed to go? Are they supposed to just stay out of your way? Are their likes and interests just bad and not as important as yours?
I don't think we should entirely get rid of jumpscares; they serve their purpose, but the reason they're so hated is they're killing horror media (At least movies and games). When all a 'horror' story is is a dark theme, gore, and a chain of jumpscare after jumpscare, that's not a well crafted horror story--that's a haunted house simulation
bad jumpscares yes, but a good jumpscare requires a set up followerd by a punchline. If a game is working to create a sence of tension and danger prior to scaring you, then it is setting up the scare just like a good comedian sets up a joke
@@Joyless Old comment I know. But to see the horror genre as different from other genres since it's derived from a feeling is a bit of a misconception. In truth the horror genre is not defined differently from, for example, the first-person shooter genre, because both are made up by certain "traditions" and conventions. All types of genres works this way, they're frameworks that people continuously reuse and reinvent. Of course you could interpret something differently from how the creator intended, which wouldn't make you wrong. But for instance being scared by Goofy skateboarding wouldn't qualify it as an horror game in the conventional sense, since the horror genre is more than how it makes you feel, just like any other genre. Do enjoy your different perspectives on the sound design of games though, it's interesting to recontextualize things in ways they were never meant to be contextualized. It makes it really uncanny.
I love fog, everytime it's foggy where I live I go on a long walk though the park next to my house, I also love white out blizzards. How dare you insinuate I don't like visibility limiting conditions.
Jump scares can be really well made, sure, but they're also the reason why I've yet to play any of Puppet Combo's games. I don't _hate_ jump scares (the overuse of them I don't like, though), and I don't think the use of them cheapens a game or film or makes it a lesser experience, I'm just so easily frightened that it's not even funny. And yet I love being scared… Great vidjeo, Jay! I could listen to you talk for hours, truly.
Thanks a lot man. Yeah same here, I'm actually REALLY easily scared and playing horror games too often or for too long stresses me the fuck out. The thing is though I just have to ask myself what I was expecting to happen when I started playing it? Because obviously getting scared stresses you out it's not the game's fault and I feel like they're criticized for that way too often.
While spending nine minutes to get to the point of "Jump Scares are integral to horror games" in a video titled as such is a bit much, I do think you have a point. Although, I'd also argue there are good jumpscares and there are bad jumpscares, and they both lie in the execution of said scare. A good jumpscare would be MR.X Breaking through a wall and hurling your ass across the room in REsident evil 2, while a bad jumpscare is the big naked guy in Outlast literally throwing you into a cutscene. Whilst one is both shocking, slightly horrifying, and leads to a chase where you have to get away from X's falcon punches, but is also preventable if you wait for while for MR.X to go back to searching the hallways, the other is one scary moment that leads to a cutscene. That's it. It doesn't lead to you having to run away from him, it isn't a pistol shot to sound off anything *Except for said cutscene*, it's just a scare that you guarantee everyone will have so you can have thousands of youtubers react to said scare.
The thing is whenever I lead with the point about jump scares, I hear that "horror isn't meant to be scary, stressful, or frightening" and that "jump scares are universally bad because they are". So I wanted to get out of the way early that horror means scary and that all of it's other mechanics aren't necessarily enjoyable either. Like darkness etc... Also you're right that jumpscares can be bad, I make that point here 9:58
I disagree with the point that jumpscares are integral to horror games. Based on simply two game: subnautica, and Alien Isolation. Both these games barely have jumpscares, and yet rely on excellent sound design and atmosphere to deliver the desired effect, to amazing results.
@@Joyless I've never seen anybody say that "horror isn't meant to be scary, stressful, or frightening" I don't even know how anybody could think that as not having any of those things completely defeated the purpose of horror. .
@@ArchangelExile Look up "how I feel about horror games" by Jordan Underneath. That's a perfect example. The entire comment section seems to agree as well...
I'd actually like to expand on that. I actually think of jumpscares not as the horror itself, but a method of getting the player's blood flowing for the actual horror. Just subtle but startling things like a vase falling over and shattering, a chair falling down a flight of stairs, creating a ruckus. All of these things can add up to make the player feel uneasy and tense, expecting a big BOO jumpscare even if it never happens. Its that anticipation alone that makes the tension so palpable.
This reminds me of another misconception people have, which has lead to a lot of horror games following suit. The idea that it's more scary if your character can't defend themselves. This is ridiculous, because as a person who understands you're playing a game, you can realize that there's no combat mechanics and enemies are either meant to kill you or you're simply supposed to avoid them. It's less scary when the game is effectively telling you "haha don't worry, I don't expect you to KILL these monstrosities", and much scarier when you have a weapon and know you're expected to fight and survive. People say not being able to fight back makes you feel helpless, when really it makes you feel a lot safer. I feel much more helpless when all I have is a shitty handgun, a lead pipe, and clunky controls to fight off shit that came out of my nightmares. Maybe these same people don't like jump scares because they actually like to feel safe in a horror game. In reality, I'm fine with jump scares as long as they're well executed and mean I'm in danger. If it's not a threat or I die once it's finished, then I immediately don't care and am not scared anymore.
Yeah, games like Left 4 Dead are all the scarier because you are forced to face the monster, expert realism tanks are the scariest enemy in a game I've ever seen, there's no option to hide in a closet, once you hear that breathing you have a pause to steel yourself for a fight you're likely to lose against a relentless foe. Dying Light masters this even better; you can hide but sometimes you are forced to put yourself in a situation where you are forced to face the monsters, but having safe zones to cower in most nights makes those times you're caught out all the scarier, you build it up in your head because you normally skip the night and don't acclimatize.
Great video, I agree 100%, this notion that all jumpscares are bad because some are cheap is silly. Although as I hate when someone uses something that's obviously surprising and then goes "har har got you" when you react in any way other than dull-witted slowness/statue-like stoicism, yeah a loud noise and sudden image are going to elicit a response, no shit. But regardless of those cheaper scares, I utterly loathe this pretentious idea that the setup for a scare + no payoff = good all the time, but as soon as you actually have something worth being scared of appear it's "cheap" somehow. So really what good horror is is varied and has lots of elements used in moderation as opposed to broad, formulaic rules. Who'd have thunk it.
Jump Scared isn't horrifying it's just makes me flinch because I couldn't process a what the hell is happening. Once I get a second than to think it's gone, it's an annoyance more than anything.
theoretically no one likes to choke or have their insides burn, but nonetheless many a human enjoys to deepthroat or to consume spicy food. fear and mystery can be enjoyed within the context of fiction, storytelling and interactive entertainment.
Ironic because King's work often uses sudden and unexpected scares to create fear and cash in on tension, which is the same idea as a well done jumpscare. Look up and you'll see the point flying way over your head.
That bit comparing jumpscares to a Call of Duty war setting genuinely spun me for a loop. I've never thought of those kinda sudden actions moments as jumpscares but they totally are!
horror isnt cheap,jump scares do feel cheap though which saddens me abit that its over used now a days,jump scares were once used very rarely so it was more effective
Someone finally said it. I don't understand why a horror game is considered good if it doesn't use jumpscares. I think those people just want to play horror games that don't actually scare them
The thing is as well, I don't think people realize just how common jump scares are. Silent Hill, Resident Evil, and Alan Wake etc... are all held up constantly as the right way to do atmospheric horror but those games have a bunch of jump scares in them.
It's less so that horror uses them and more so how they use them. A jumpscare is one of the most common attempts at scaring an audience and becomes labelled cheap if done wrong because it is very easy to do it wrong. And there is a way to build up a jumpscare and use it effectively(which imo is best done when used very selectively.). Silent Hill 1 accomplishes this with the locker scare and has been remembered for it because of just how effective it is. It plays on the player's knowledge/expectation. Thus it creates a lingering feeling of real fear and uncertainty. Now to be fair this is all mostly subjective based on how I like things, but I feel weak horror have an overuse of jumpscares that skip the build up and aim for an immediate quick effect where you put any kind of image in front of someone in time with a loud sound or just kind of stick to one formula for delivering the scare to the audience. Now I cant say that Jumpscares arent horror because somebody is gonna think this is horrifying but I do think they can be done badly and part of the problem is that the genre is just saturated with movies/games banking on this one feeling when its capable of much more.
I don't understand. A kid can be terrified of the dark without anything ever actually coming out of it to scare them. A book can be scary even though a jumpscare in a book is basically impossible. Why are videogames any different? If I were to make a video about it, I think my main point would be that jumpscares aren't scary. The only purpose they serve is a release of tension. As you're walking down a dark hallway anticipating something to come out at you, tension builds and you feel dread. Once something *does* come out, the tension and dread evaporate in a flash of adrenaline. So a jumpscare makes the situation less scrary, not more
Jump scares are fine. Maybe people complain because its overused in repeated instances. There are good ways to use jump scares along with appropriate build up and anticipation. But even with that, some people do get used to this 'formula'. People can pinpoint the moment of scare and the feeling comes and goes away too quickly to feel satisfying. Horror games are well-liked because some people like feeling disturbed and uncomfortable. These games can stimulate these otherwise rarely felt emotions in everyday life. If a jump scare startles me as much as my boss tapping me on the shoulder while I'm asleep during work, its not going to startle me as much the second time. And you bet I'm going to sleep 30 minutes after lunch.
I mean, you're right. But that's basically what I've just said. To use the comedy example again, jokes get less funny the more you hear them because that's how everything works, you only experience something for the first time once. So you can't really use that to say that they're flawed or bad in concept.
@@Joyless Maybe that's why horror visual novels are somehow scaring the shit out of me and making me look behind my back while I read them. It's really a new experience.
You're right but like I said, I've been talking about this stuff for years and I knew exactly the kind of response that was coming. You'd be genuinely surprised at some of the stuff people say nowadays like the fact that "horror" doesn't mean scary. It sounds obvious but believe it or not it has to be said for some people. It just takes a while...
I think the point is that anyone can pull off a jump scare, (there was even a fad all about it, look up screamer videos) and that undermines good game design or putting any effort into making a spooky atmosphere because either way you're going to scare someone. Thats whats pissing everybody off, the fact that the crappy ones can achieve or get close to the same level of spook as good ones. but yeah there is a group of people who just hate jump scares in general and will fight forever until they get abolished.
Cool video, don't worry, everybody has wrong opinions. Ok seriously now, the thing is not that jumpscares are bad because they make you feel bad, the problem is when jumpscares make you feel nothing, and that happens when the jumpscare, A: is not earned, and B: is predictable. That's why jumpscares are so hated, a lot of games, movies or whatever think jumpscares = scary, and this line of thinking leads to 0,5 second spasms and a "oh shit" at best, and a blank face at worst, the point I'm trying to make I think I don't know I'm just typing words I didn't came here with a end point, what I mean is, a jumpscare depends on everything that surrounds it, and in being able to put the player into that world so he cares. I hope I'm right cause I really don't think jumpscares are the staple of horror because if they are and they scare everybody else that would mean I'm a fucking stone face and I don't think that's the case, last week I saw a cockroach and I got scared shitless I had to gather every bit of courage I have to kill it, talking about that did you ever noticed how cockroaches are the most disgusting yet harmless thing in the world? I think they are the real staple and face of the horror genre. What was I talking again? Oh yeah something about wrong opinions, so anyway
All that is true but nothing is scary without all the stuff that surrounds it (Tension, build up, payoff, atmosphere etc... ). But jump scares are the only thing people will claim are fundamentally bad and shouldn't exist regardless. No one complains about darkness in video games just because games often do it poorly.
@@Joyless I think people just don't like when the jumpscare isn't earned, although now jumpscares have in fact been deemed fundamentally bad by a lot of people due to being very easy to do wrong and used excessively. If there's one thing I think developers of anything horror related should remember, is to valorize your jumpscares, after all, a jumpscare it's like the punchline of a joke, you have to now when to drop it, and you have to now how to carry to it
Again, you're right and these are really good points. But just because they're done really badly a lot doesn't mean they're bad. Everything can be done either really well or really badly.
If the defining feature of Horror games is being unenjoyable then I would say MOST video games are Horror games, and outlast is defenetly the peak of "horror". :) Great video btw, i really appretiate you not haveing a fucking insessent backround music track. and i really mean that. The kind of person to talk about clock tower and NOT inappropriately use the fantastic soundtrack is a good content creator. CoC:DCoTE has some of the best scares(jump and non-jump) and spooks in video gameing, love that game.
I have to say that I've caught a lot of flack for dead space 1 being my favourite horror title 'what about silent hill or outlast' people always say, 'the scares are just husks of flesh slowly ambling towards you in a dimly lit corridor. However if I'm anything I'm as stubborn as hell towards the fact that I fucking love the writing and atmosphere in it it's that the things that give you the feeling of something that's even weird for a ship filled with spikey corpses is what truly interests me.as badly as this is formatted what im trying to say is that the marker is one of the best antagonists and it's just a rock, fight me
i watched this whole thing and im still not sure what hes trying to communicate or what the thesis statement of this video is. my man is not great at being concise, or my ADHD is a little to strong for me to follow along. my best guess at what hes trying to say is this: "a game is not horror unless it scares you and simply having a creepy atmosphere or environment is not scary but jump scares are. Therefore a game is not horror unless it has jump scares" Am i even close?
Great video! Really well done and put-together! Yeah, just because a lot of low-skilled indie (& some AAA) devs shove in a lot of sudden screaming, piano banging, and flashy spoopy images without any buildup in an attempt to easily scare people without having to put in the work doesn't mean that it is an impossibility to use jump scares effectively and non-cheaply. Reminds me of this one TH-camr I like, NitroRad, who, a few years ago, while reviewing an RPG Maker horror game, The Crooked Man, got really pissy and went off on a minute-long tangent about how jump scares are cancerous, even though what happened could barely be called a jump scare at all, with the monster's face flashing the screen with every step it took closer (like, we get it, you didn’t like Fnaf, why you trashing this game over it?), even though a few videos earlier in his Silent Hill video, he took a 30 second tangent to actually praise the literal jump scare at the beginning of the game!
I think what nitrorad and a lot of other people have a habit of doing is believing that jump scares are only jump scares if they're badly done. I know I used to be like this, I refused to believe silent hill had any jump scares. Jump scares can be, and most of the time are, used very badly. The teradactyl jump scare in SH1 is good because it builds up something weird is going on with that. radio. and then an enemy that's a threat to you smashes through the window. For some people they wanna believe that means it's not a jump scare, cuz it's good, and jump scares are inherently bad. When really they're just the weakest techniqe in horror. I think the problem people have with them is their overuse, I know that's my problem. Even if they're good, it's a lot easier to scare someone with them than anything else. To go with the analogy used in this video, they're basically the poop jokes of horror. They can be done well and be funny, but when you do them badly and too often you seem juvenile and uncreative, like modern AVGN. Thus, a lot of lazy and uncreative people making horror games and movies just use almost exclusively jump scares because fuck I don't have a better idea. This has led to people thinking they're just naturally bad, when really you can tell a damn good poop joke.
Horror is my favorite genre in fiction. It's a shame to see so few good horror games ever see the light of day. Jump scares can be an effective tool in a horror setting but they have to be very sparse and meticulously planned. Horror is suspenseful. A persistent feeling of dread. A poor jump scare can be the equivalent of blowing your load when things are just getting good.
Exactly, they should come as a crescendo to build up or to catch you off guard when you thought you were safe. The most effective scares either punctuate tension or violate a feeling of sanctuary.
I don't like jumpscares unless they're done in a way where you know if they're about to happen. look at five nights at freddy's, they do jumpscares in a way where its your fault...unless you're on the hardest custom night.
Jumpscares are definitely a good tool for horror, but shouldn't be relied on exclusively. A jumpscare isn't scary if there is no good atmosphere. You can get screamed at in FNAF all day, and have 173 put your contacts in for you. But unless the world is already scary, its just a jump, no scare, and it will deliver far less every next scare. It takes a LOT of work to get someone terrified without a jumpscare, and isn't always necessary. That kind of fear is not only hard to achieve, _but also probably traumatizing._ I don't like jumpscares that are misused is all.
@@Joyless True. SCP Containment Breach does a really good job making 173 feel terrifying, since he has his own mechanic engrained into the player for the entire game, blinking. Whether he is present or not. Which adds a constant sense of looming neck snappage, even if he is contained. But in the unity remake, not only is he redesigned for marketing purposes (which I feel really takes away from his scariness), his blink meter also only appears when he is nearby. Which is a very binary yes or no answer to if 173 is around the corner. SCP Secret Lab also has a blink counter that only exists when he is around, but given the fact its multiplayer, it would be unfair. But it keeps the tension up by not letting players know when they will blink, and by giving 79 the ability to flicker lights.
Alien Isolation does it really well, too. It doesn't really have jumpscares and yet it's one of the scariest horror games I know, simply due to you being able to hear the alien stomping around one room away from you and getting closer.
@@Freezorgium Alien Isolation is probably one of the best horror games ever made. Id put it up there with the VR edition of FNAF (Only flaw is the need for VR, which just enhances everything 1000%), and SCP Containment Breach (Only flaw was the buggy game engine, really well made otherwise). It does an absolutely fantastic job of atmospheric horror, making you terrified even if the alien cant even access your area. I highly recommend Sovietwombles playthrough of the game, he gets so immersed its unreal. Plus he has really good editing. (And he is also an absolute baby which makes it much funnier.)
For me horror is about being able to feel scared but at the same time doing it on safety. No one likes dark spaces in real life, or any kinds of threats in real life, but I DO enjoy being scared. In my day to day life I almost never have the need or oportunitie to get in touch with the main instinct that led human kind or any species to maintain theirselves alive, so I use this medium to get in touch with this thing that for me is so important, this feeling of danger, but without putting myself in real danger. Having said that, good jumpscares can get a good effect, but to me it's still cheap and lazy. I'm not saying it isn't true horror, it's just bad horror. I can scare my sister by jumping from behind the door, but will it make she get uneasy or even feel this sense of profound danger and dread after it? No, it won't. As it was said in other comment here, jumpscares are not like jokes, they are like tickling someone and calling yourself a humorist for making they laugh with it.
I've heard this point before and I'm not sure I understand it. Tickling still makes you laugh the same way jump scares still scare you regardless of what you call it (uneasy to use yours). You're just branding one as good and the other as bad just because you don't like it. There are a lot of bad jump scares but remember there are loud sudden jumps all the time in action games and no one cares because without the tension, atmosphere, build up, etc... jump scares wouldn't even exist.
@@Joyless if you pay for an humorist and instead of working to make good jokes he gets off of the stage and comes tickle you in your seat, is it comedy? The problem is, in the action genre you want tension all the time but for a different purpose, to bring adrenaline, to get the player going. Being agitated and being uneasy can seem to be the same thing, but they aren't. If you're playing an horror game you want to be terrified, not excited. Jumpscares can be a useful tool in action games, but not in horror. Just to remember, this is my view on the kind of games I and only myself would prefer to play. It is not the universal truth and I'm not claiming to have it. And the same goes for you, that's how you enjoy this media, but art is appreciated differently by each person.
I don't like jump scares either. But horror games are for people who do. That's the place they go for to feel scared, agitated, uneasy and all the negative things that come with it. When you use words like "good horror" or "good comedy" it implies that there is a universal truth and that your way is the correct way. If you prefer laughing at jokes over getting tickled that's cool, but that's your thing not the universal standard.
(Yeah I know, commenting on the 11 months old video) So the thing about jumpscares is that there are three types of jumpscares, one is just a good jumpscare where you get scared and it feels natural because of the suspense created beforehand(ie Silent Hill's school locker room), bad jumpscare that's just some loud noise/something appearing out of nowhere which makes your brain go "Oh shit, oh fuck" for a second just for you to realize it was dumb (ie most but not all of FNAF jumpscares) and the third one that's just disappointing or pitiful (ie anything in JuOn wii game)
personally i only like psychological, at most psychological with gore. I didn't flinch once playing outlast and quit the 2nd because i was bored of it, it just makes me think of blair witch, after the first time watching it it's not that great or interesting
So the point you're trying to make is that jump scares are scary and therefore a distinct lack of them doesn't necessarily equate to quality. There was a lot of beating around the bush and in the end you didn't really say what you were saying in a very succinct manner. You have a reasonable point but fluffing around about how genres limit game design and creativity leads the listener away from the point you're trying to make seeing as how you already introduced the topic to a degree
The first half was really annoying to make as well. Believe it or not though every single time I've had the discussion with someone it has always been necessary. They'd use some synonym for the word "scary" and try and say that it isn't horror.
wonderful video, but do you think in the future, if it isn't too much trouble, you could include a list in the description or a comment of all the games you played in the video? that game in a pixelly car looked really interesting but i don't know the name of it
It's called Dead End Road. but sure, good idea. I was actually considering putting the name over the footage but I didn't want it to be pointless or unnecessary so I bailed at the last second.
You're right but like I said, I've been talking about this stuff for years and I knew exactly the kind of response that was coming. You'd be genuinely surprised at some of the stuff people say nowadays like the fact that "horror" doesn't mean scary. It might not have needed to be said for you but believe it or not I needed to clarify that before I even started talking about jumpscares.
You're right but like I said, I've been talking about this stuff for years and I had to make sure that I was covering every possible counter argument that was gonna come my way. You'd be genuinely surprised at some of the stuff people say nowadays like the fact that "horror" doesn't mean scary. It sounds obvious but believe it or not it has to be said for some people.
I like your content but your self loathing is too much. You're not alone, actually a lot of people feel the way you ddo. It'ss normal. Its not wrong. Be more self confident.
This is the last thing I'll say about this: There are people out there that enjoy jump scares (I'm not one of them). So if we rid the world of "cheap and lazy jump scares"... Where are they supposed to go? Are they supposed to just stay out of your way? Are their likes and interests just bad and not as important as yours?
I don't think we should entirely get rid of jumpscares; they serve their purpose, but the reason they're so hated is they're killing horror media (At least movies and games). When all a 'horror' story is is a dark theme, gore, and a chain of jumpscare after jumpscare, that's not a well crafted horror story--that's a haunted house simulation
Jumpscares aren't like jokes, they are more like tickling the person and calling it comedy.
bad jumpscares yes, but a good jumpscare requires a set up followerd by a punchline. If a game is working to create a sence of tension and danger prior to scaring you, then it is setting up the scare just like a good comedian sets up a joke
Broad blanket statements are bad.
Jumpscares are like pulling out a gun at a comedy club and demanding the audience laughs.
Horror = Atmosphere and setting. A "jump scare" without atmosphere is just like a screamer; not scary, just annoying.
Horror literally just means scary. It has nothing to do with the setting and jump scares, in a lot of cases, actually create the atmosphere.
@@Joyless Old comment I know. But to see the horror genre as different from other genres since it's derived from a feeling is a bit of a misconception. In truth the horror genre is not defined differently from, for example, the first-person shooter genre, because both are made up by certain "traditions" and conventions. All types of genres works this way, they're frameworks that people continuously reuse and reinvent. Of course you could interpret something differently from how the creator intended, which wouldn't make you wrong. But for instance being scared by Goofy skateboarding wouldn't qualify it as an horror game in the conventional sense, since the horror genre is more than how it makes you feel, just like any other genre.
Do enjoy your different perspectives on the sound design of games though, it's interesting to recontextualize things in ways they were never meant to be contextualized. It makes it really uncanny.
Sonic's Schoolhouse was the Baldi's Basics predecessor
I love fog, everytime it's foggy where I live I go on a long walk though the park next to my house, I also love white out blizzards. How dare you insinuate I don't like visibility limiting conditions.
Jump scares can be really well made, sure, but they're also the reason why I've yet to play any of Puppet Combo's games. I don't _hate_ jump scares (the overuse of them I don't like, though), and I don't think the use of them cheapens a game or film or makes it a lesser experience, I'm just so easily frightened that it's not even funny. And yet I love being scared…
Great vidjeo, Jay! I could listen to you talk for hours, truly.
Thanks a lot man. Yeah same here, I'm actually REALLY easily scared and playing horror games too often or for too long stresses me the fuck out. The thing is though I just have to ask myself what I was expecting to happen when I started playing it? Because obviously getting scared stresses you out it's not the game's fault and I feel like they're criticized for that way too often.
While spending nine minutes to get to the point of "Jump Scares are integral to horror games" in a video titled as such is a bit much, I do think you have a point. Although, I'd also argue there are good jumpscares and there are bad jumpscares, and they both lie in the execution of said scare. A good jumpscare would be MR.X Breaking through a wall and hurling your ass across the room in REsident evil 2, while a bad jumpscare is the big naked guy in Outlast literally throwing you into a cutscene.
Whilst one is both shocking, slightly horrifying, and leads to a chase where you have to get away from X's falcon punches, but is also preventable if you wait for while for MR.X to go back to searching the hallways, the other is one scary moment that leads to a cutscene. That's it. It doesn't lead to you having to run away from him, it isn't a pistol shot to sound off anything *Except for said cutscene*, it's just a scare that you guarantee everyone will have so you can have thousands of youtubers react to said scare.
The thing is whenever I lead with the point about jump scares, I hear that "horror isn't meant to be scary, stressful, or frightening" and that "jump scares are universally bad because they are". So I wanted to get out of the way early that horror means scary and that all of it's other mechanics aren't necessarily enjoyable either. Like darkness etc... Also you're right that jumpscares can be bad, I make that point here 9:58
I disagree with the point that jumpscares are integral to horror games. Based on simply two game: subnautica, and Alien Isolation. Both these games barely have jumpscares, and yet rely on excellent sound design and atmosphere to deliver the desired effect, to amazing results.
@@Joyless I've never seen anybody say that "horror isn't meant to be scary, stressful, or frightening" I don't even know how anybody could think that as not having any of those things completely defeated the purpose of horror. .
@@ArchangelExile Look up "how I feel about horror games" by Jordan Underneath. That's a perfect example. The entire comment section seems to agree as well...
I'd actually like to expand on that. I actually think of jumpscares not as the horror itself, but a method of getting the player's blood flowing for the actual horror. Just subtle but startling things like a vase falling over and shattering, a chair falling down a flight of stairs, creating a ruckus. All of these things can add up to make the player feel uneasy and tense, expecting a big BOO jumpscare even if it never happens. Its that anticipation alone that makes the tension so palpable.
It took me a lot of time to realise Half Life 2 is a horror game. Years, even.
This reminds me of another misconception people have, which has lead to a lot of horror games following suit. The idea that it's more scary if your character can't defend themselves. This is ridiculous, because as a person who understands you're playing a game, you can realize that there's no combat mechanics and enemies are either meant to kill you or you're simply supposed to avoid them. It's less scary when the game is effectively telling you "haha don't worry, I don't expect you to KILL these monstrosities", and much scarier when you have a weapon and know you're expected to fight and survive. People say not being able to fight back makes you feel helpless, when really it makes you feel a lot safer. I feel much more helpless when all I have is a shitty handgun, a lead pipe, and clunky controls to fight off shit that came out of my nightmares.
Maybe these same people don't like jump scares because they actually like to feel safe in a horror game. In reality, I'm fine with jump scares as long as they're well executed and mean I'm in danger. If it's not a threat or I die once it's finished, then I immediately don't care and am not scared anymore.
Yeah, games like Left 4 Dead are all the scarier because you are forced to face the monster, expert realism tanks are the scariest enemy in a game I've ever seen, there's no option to hide in a closet, once you hear that breathing you have a pause to steel yourself for a fight you're likely to lose against a relentless foe.
Dying Light masters this even better; you can hide but sometimes you are forced to put yourself in a situation where you are forced to face the monsters, but having safe zones to cower in most nights makes those times you're caught out all the scarier, you build it up in your head because you normally skip the night and don't acclimatize.
i find horror games where your only option is to hide and unable to fight back in any way possible really tedious and annoying.
Great video, I agree 100%, this notion that all jumpscares are bad because some are cheap is silly. Although as I hate when someone uses something that's obviously surprising and then goes "har har got you" when you react in any way other than dull-witted slowness/statue-like stoicism, yeah a loud noise and sudden image are going to elicit a response, no shit. But regardless of those cheaper scares, I utterly loathe this pretentious idea that the setup for a scare + no payoff = good all the time, but as soon as you actually have something worth being scared of appear it's "cheap" somehow. So really what good horror is is varied and has lots of elements used in moderation as opposed to broad, formulaic rules. Who'd have thunk it.
I'm getting lucky with finding small channels like this one, I love your content
Just found the channel too, it's a shame he hasn't uploaded in 5 months...
You make a really good point actually, thanks jay you completely changed my perspective.
I myself am more of a dread guy and enjoyed the shit out of darkwood but your point is totally right
Jump Scared isn't horrifying it's just makes me flinch because I couldn't process a what the hell is happening. Once I get a second than to think it's gone, it's an annoyance more than anything.
Still made you flinch though.
The jump isn't the fear, the fear comes from expecting the jump, or not expecting it. Each case is different.
theoretically no one likes to choke or have their insides burn, but nonetheless many a human enjoys to deepthroat or to consume spicy food. fear and mystery can be enjoyed within the context of fiction, storytelling and interactive entertainment.
Amazing analogy.
*(LOUD-STARTLING SOUND)*
See, Im Scary because i made a loud noise. Take THAT "Stephen King" You hack.
lol "startle" is literally a synonym for scare.
@@Joyless (Facepalm)
Ironic because King's work often uses sudden and unexpected scares to create fear and cash in on tension, which is the same idea as a well done jumpscare.
Look up and you'll see the point flying way over your head.
Jump scares are like the kid who says one good joke but then keeps repeating the same joke.
That bit comparing jumpscares to a Call of Duty war setting genuinely spun me for a loop. I've never thought of those kinda sudden actions moments as jumpscares but they totally are!
horror isnt cheap,jump scares do feel cheap though which saddens me abit that its over used now a days,jump scares were once used very rarely so it was more effective
"Horror isn't scary"
@@maximusegh2309 neither is your mother! But I wouldn't want to meet her at the end of a long dark hallway regardless
Have you played Darkwood? I feel like you'd really like it, I get a sense of that flash horror style from it that you really like and you alone.
Oh sweet. Not yet but it's in a humble bundle at the moment for like 3$ so I'll grab it now.
@@Joyless Nice, hope you like it
Here's a song I made for this video
soundcloud.com/joylessss/jump-scares
Someone finally said it. I don't understand why a horror game is considered good if it doesn't use jumpscares. I think those people just want to play horror games that don't actually scare them
The thing is as well, I don't think people realize just how common jump scares are. Silent Hill, Resident Evil, and Alan Wake etc... are all held up constantly as the right way to do atmospheric horror but those games have a bunch of jump scares in them.
It's less so that horror uses them and more so how they use them. A jumpscare is one of the most common attempts at scaring an audience and becomes labelled cheap if done wrong because it is very easy to do it wrong. And there is a way to build up a jumpscare and use it effectively(which imo is best done when used very selectively.). Silent Hill 1 accomplishes this with the locker scare and has been remembered for it because of just how effective it is. It plays on the player's knowledge/expectation. Thus it creates a lingering feeling of real fear and uncertainty. Now to be fair this is all mostly subjective based on how I like things, but I feel weak horror have an overuse of jumpscares that skip the build up and aim for an immediate quick effect where you put any kind of image in front of someone in time with a loud sound or just kind of stick to one formula for delivering the scare to the audience. Now I cant say that Jumpscares arent horror because somebody is gonna think this is horrifying but I do think they can be done badly and part of the problem is that the genre is just saturated with movies/games banking on this one feeling when its capable of much more.
Alien Isolation has no almost no jumpscares and you know damn well its one of the best horror games out there
You know you can still be very afraid without any jumpscares?
I don't understand. A kid can be terrified of the dark without anything ever actually coming out of it to scare them. A book can be scary even though a jumpscare in a book is basically impossible. Why are videogames any different?
If I were to make a video about it, I think my main point would be that jumpscares aren't scary. The only purpose they serve is a release of tension. As you're walking down a dark hallway anticipating something to come out at you, tension builds and you feel dread. Once something *does* come out, the tension and dread evaporate in a flash of adrenaline. So a jumpscare makes the situation less scrary, not more
9:05 is genuinely the most terrifying thing I have ever seen.
Jump scares are fine. Maybe people complain because its overused in repeated instances. There are good ways to use jump scares along with appropriate build up and anticipation. But even with that, some people do get used to this 'formula'. People can pinpoint the moment of scare and the feeling comes and goes away too quickly to feel satisfying. Horror games are well-liked because some people like feeling disturbed and uncomfortable. These games can stimulate these otherwise rarely felt emotions in everyday life. If a jump scare startles me as much as my boss tapping me on the shoulder while I'm asleep during work, its not going to startle me as much the second time. And you bet I'm going to sleep 30 minutes after lunch.
I mean, you're right. But that's basically what I've just said. To use the comedy example again, jokes get less funny the more you hear them because that's how everything works, you only experience something for the first time once. So you can't really use that to say that they're flawed or bad in concept.
@@Joyless Maybe that's why horror visual novels are somehow scaring the shit out of me and making me look behind my back while I read them. It's really a new experience.
It took you 7:23 to start talking about Jump Scares, Jeebus.
You're right but like I said, I've been talking about this stuff for years and I knew exactly the kind of response that was coming. You'd be genuinely surprised at some of the stuff people say nowadays like the fact that "horror" doesn't mean scary. It sounds obvious but believe it or not it has to be said for some people. It just takes a while...
I think the point is that anyone can pull off a jump scare, (there was even a fad all about it, look up screamer videos) and that undermines good game design or putting any effort into making a spooky atmosphere because either way you're going to scare someone. Thats whats pissing everybody off, the fact that the crappy ones can achieve or get close to the same level of spook as good ones. but yeah there is a group of people who just hate jump scares in general and will fight forever until they get abolished.
Cool video, don't worry, everybody has wrong opinions. Ok seriously now, the thing is not that jumpscares are bad because they make you feel bad, the problem is when jumpscares make you feel nothing, and that happens when the jumpscare, A: is not earned, and B: is predictable. That's why jumpscares are so hated, a lot of games, movies or whatever think jumpscares = scary, and this line of thinking leads to 0,5 second spasms and a "oh shit" at best, and a blank face at worst, the point I'm trying to make I think I don't know I'm just typing words I didn't came here with a end point, what I mean is, a jumpscare depends on everything that surrounds it, and in being able to put the player into that world so he cares. I hope I'm right cause I really don't think jumpscares are the staple of horror because if they are and they scare everybody else that would mean I'm a fucking stone face and I don't think that's the case, last week I saw a cockroach and I got scared shitless I had to gather every bit of courage I have to kill it, talking about that did you ever noticed how cockroaches are the most disgusting yet harmless thing in the world? I think they are the real staple and face of the horror genre. What was I talking again? Oh yeah something about wrong opinions, so anyway
All that is true but nothing is scary without all the stuff that surrounds it (Tension, build up, payoff, atmosphere etc... ).
But jump scares are the only thing people will claim are fundamentally bad and shouldn't exist regardless. No one complains about darkness in video games just because games often do it poorly.
@@Joyless I think people just don't like when the jumpscare isn't earned, although now jumpscares have in fact been deemed fundamentally bad by a lot of people due to being very easy to do wrong and used excessively. If there's one thing I think developers of anything horror related should remember, is to valorize your jumpscares, after all, a jumpscare it's like the punchline of a joke, you have to now when to drop it, and you have to now how to carry to it
Again, you're right and these are really good points. But just because they're done really badly a lot doesn't mean they're bad. Everything can be done either really well or really badly.
i was not expecting cold fear gameplay in this wow
If the defining feature of Horror games is being unenjoyable then I would say MOST video games are Horror games, and outlast is defenetly the peak of "horror". :)
Great video btw, i really appretiate you not haveing a fucking insessent backround music track. and i really mean that. The kind of person to talk about clock tower and NOT inappropriately use the fantastic soundtrack is a good content creator. CoC:DCoTE has some of the best scares(jump and non-jump) and spooks in video gameing, love that game.
I have to say that I've caught a lot of flack for dead space 1 being my favourite horror title 'what about silent hill or outlast' people always say, 'the scares are just husks of flesh slowly ambling towards you in a dimly lit corridor. However if I'm anything I'm as stubborn as hell towards the fact that I fucking love the writing and atmosphere in it it's that the things that give you the feeling of something that's even weird for a ship filled with spikey corpses is what truly interests me.as badly as this is formatted what im trying to say is that the marker is one of the best antagonists and it's just a rock, fight me
i watched this whole thing and im still not sure what hes trying to communicate or what the thesis statement of this video is. my man is not great at being concise, or my ADHD is a little to strong for me to follow along. my best guess at what hes trying to say is this: "a game is not horror unless it scares you and simply having a creepy atmosphere or environment is not scary but jump scares are. Therefore a game is not horror unless it has jump scares" Am i even close?
Great video! Really well done and put-together! Yeah, just because a lot of low-skilled indie (& some AAA) devs shove in a lot of sudden screaming, piano banging, and flashy spoopy images without any buildup in an attempt to easily scare people without having to put in the work doesn't mean that it is an impossibility to use jump scares effectively and non-cheaply.
Reminds me of this one TH-camr I like, NitroRad, who, a few years ago, while reviewing an RPG Maker horror game, The Crooked Man, got really pissy and went off on a minute-long tangent about how jump scares are cancerous, even though what happened could barely be called a jump scare at all, with the monster's face flashing the screen with every step it took closer (like, we get it, you didn’t like Fnaf, why you trashing this game over it?), even though a few videos earlier in his Silent Hill video, he took a 30 second tangent to actually praise the literal jump scare at the beginning of the game!
Spot on, dude. Really happy I shared this finding out I'm not the only one that's noticing this kind of thing.
I think what nitrorad and a lot of other people have a habit of doing is believing that jump scares are only jump scares if they're badly done. I know I used to be like this, I refused to believe silent hill had any jump scares. Jump scares can be, and most of the time are, used very badly. The teradactyl jump scare in SH1 is good because it builds up something weird is going on with that. radio. and then an enemy that's a threat to you smashes through the window. For some people they wanna believe that means it's not a jump scare, cuz it's good, and jump scares are inherently bad.
When really they're just the weakest techniqe in horror. I think the problem people have with them is their overuse, I know that's my problem. Even if they're good, it's a lot easier to scare someone with them than anything else. To go with the analogy used in this video, they're basically the poop jokes of horror. They can be done well and be funny, but when you do them badly and too often you seem juvenile and uncreative, like modern AVGN. Thus, a lot of lazy and uncreative people making horror games and movies just use almost exclusively jump scares because fuck I don't have a better idea. This has led to people thinking they're just naturally bad, when really you can tell a damn good poop joke.
"Who the fuck likes horror?"
I feel attacked
Horror is my favorite genre in fiction. It's a shame to see so few good horror games ever see the light of day. Jump scares can be an effective tool in a horror setting but they have to be very sparse and meticulously planned. Horror is suspenseful. A persistent feeling of dread. A poor jump scare can be the equivalent of blowing your load when things are just getting good.
Exactly, they should come as a crescendo to build up or to catch you off guard when you thought you were safe.
The most effective scares either punctuate tension or violate a feeling of sanctuary.
I'ma mail myself to ya in a big ol' box n' scare ye.
At least I'd see you again buddy x
I don't like jumpscares unless they're done in a way where you know if they're about to happen. look at five nights at freddy's, they do jumpscares in a way where its your fault...unless you're on the hardest custom night.
Jumpscares are definitely a good tool for horror, but shouldn't be relied on exclusively.
A jumpscare isn't scary if there is no good atmosphere. You can get screamed at in FNAF all day, and have 173 put your contacts in for you. But unless the world is already scary, its just a jump, no scare, and it will deliver far less every next scare.
It takes a LOT of work to get someone terrified without a jumpscare, and isn't always necessary. That kind of fear is not only hard to achieve, _but also probably traumatizing._ I don't like jumpscares that are misused is all.
You're absolutely right. But every mechanic can be done badly or really well, that doesn't mean that they're cheap or lazy in concept.
@@Joyless True.
SCP Containment Breach does a really good job making 173 feel terrifying, since he has his own mechanic engrained into the player for the entire game, blinking. Whether he is present or not. Which adds a constant sense of looming neck snappage, even if he is contained.
But in the unity remake, not only is he redesigned for marketing purposes (which I feel really takes away from his scariness), his blink meter also only appears when he is nearby. Which is a very binary yes or no answer to if 173 is around the corner.
SCP Secret Lab also has a blink counter that only exists when he is around, but given the fact its multiplayer, it would be unfair. But it keeps the tension up by not letting players know when they will blink, and by giving 79 the ability to flicker lights.
Alien Isolation does it really well, too. It doesn't really have jumpscares and yet it's one of the scariest horror games I know, simply due to you being able to hear the alien stomping around one room away from you and getting closer.
@@Freezorgium Alien Isolation is probably one of the best horror games ever made. Id put it up there with the VR edition of FNAF (Only flaw is the need for VR, which just enhances everything 1000%), and SCP Containment Breach (Only flaw was the buggy game engine, really well made otherwise). It does an absolutely fantastic job of atmospheric horror, making you terrified even if the alien cant even access your area. I highly recommend Sovietwombles playthrough of the game, he gets so immersed its unreal. Plus he has really good editing. (And he is also an absolute baby which makes it much funnier.)
@@pauldeddens5349 I'll check out out, big ups
For me horror is about being able to feel scared but at the same time doing it on safety. No one likes dark spaces in real life, or any kinds of threats in real life, but I DO enjoy being scared. In my day to day life I almost never have the need or oportunitie to get in touch with the main instinct that led human kind or any species to maintain theirselves alive, so I use this medium to get in touch with this thing that for me is so important, this feeling of danger, but without putting myself in real danger.
Having said that, good jumpscares can get a good effect, but to me it's still cheap and lazy. I'm not saying it isn't true horror, it's just bad horror. I can scare my sister by jumping from behind the door, but will it make she get uneasy or even feel this sense of profound danger and dread after it? No, it won't.
As it was said in other comment here, jumpscares are not like jokes, they are like tickling someone and calling yourself a humorist for making they laugh with it.
I've heard this point before and I'm not sure I understand it. Tickling still makes you laugh the same way jump scares still scare you regardless of what you call it (uneasy to use yours). You're just branding one as good and the other as bad just because you don't like it.
There are a lot of bad jump scares but remember there are loud sudden jumps all the time in action games and no one cares because without the tension, atmosphere, build up, etc... jump scares wouldn't even exist.
@@Joyless if you pay for an humorist and instead of working to make good jokes he gets off of the stage and comes tickle you in your seat, is it comedy?
The problem is, in the action genre you want tension all the time but for a different purpose, to bring adrenaline, to get the player going. Being agitated and being uneasy can seem to be the same thing, but they aren't. If you're playing an horror game you want to be terrified, not excited. Jumpscares can be a useful tool in action games, but not in horror.
Just to remember, this is my view on the kind of games I and only myself would prefer to play. It is not the universal truth and I'm not claiming to have it. And the same goes for you, that's how you enjoy this media, but art is appreciated differently by each person.
I don't like jump scares either. But horror games are for people who do. That's the place they go for to feel scared, agitated, uneasy and all the negative things that come with it.
When you use words like "good horror" or "good comedy" it implies that there is a universal truth and that your way is the correct way. If you prefer laughing at jokes over getting tickled that's cool, but that's your thing not the universal standard.
Oh god, not Sonic's Schoolhouse!
(Yeah I know, commenting on the 11 months old video) So the thing about jumpscares is that there are three types of jumpscares, one is just a good jumpscare where you get scared and it feels natural because of the suspense created beforehand(ie Silent Hill's school locker room), bad jumpscare that's just some loud noise/something appearing out of nowhere which makes your brain go "Oh shit, oh fuck" for a second just for you to realize it was dumb (ie most but not all of FNAF jumpscares) and the third one that's just disappointing or pitiful (ie anything in JuOn wii game)
You're absolutely right. But every mechanic can be done badly or really well, that doesn't mean that they're cheap or lazy in concept.
personally i only like psychological, at most psychological with gore. I didn't flinch once playing outlast and quit the 2nd because i was bored of it, it just makes me think of blair witch, after the first time watching it it's not that great or interesting
2:12 where she go
So the point you're trying to make is that jump scares are scary and therefore a distinct lack of them doesn't necessarily equate to quality. There was a lot of beating around the bush and in the end you didn't really say what you were saying in a very succinct manner. You have a reasonable point but fluffing around about how genres limit game design and creativity leads the listener away from the point you're trying to make seeing as how you already introduced the topic to a degree
The first half was really annoying to make as well. Believe it or not though every single time I've had the discussion with someone it has always been necessary. They'd use some synonym for the word "scary" and try and say that it isn't horror.
I know that this video is a year old already, but, whats the game at 1:07?
Btw, recently discovered your channel and enjoy your videos. Keep it up ;)
Thanks! It's the first clocktower game on SNES :)
imagine thinking five nights at Fredericksburg is a good game
If you think fucking Sudoku is a good game that's not much of a stretch.
wonderful video, but do you think in the future, if it isn't too much trouble, you could include a list in the description or a comment of all the games you played in the video?
that game in a pixelly car looked really interesting but i don't know the name of it
It's called Dead End Road. but sure, good idea. I was actually considering putting the name over the footage but I didn't want it to be pointless or unnecessary so I bailed at the last second.
video is great and I completely agree with your philosophy on jump scares, but can anyone tell me what the game at 8:55 is?
Dead end road :)
@@Joyless tysm!
Absolute great video. Loved the points you discussed in detail throughout. 👌👌
8 minutes of schizo ramblings in an 11 minute video about jumpscares
You're right but like I said, I've been talking about this stuff for years and I knew exactly the kind of response that was coming. You'd be genuinely surprised at some of the stuff people say nowadays like the fact that "horror" doesn't mean scary. It might not have needed to be said for you but believe it or not I needed to clarify that before I even started talking about jumpscares.
8:21 what game is that? It looks eerie...
Dead end road :)
@@Joyless thank you
I politely disagree.
whats the game he is playing at 8:25
Dead end road :)
What is the driving game shown here?
Dead end road.
@@Joyless Thanks!
who is joe
What's the point and click game at 6:45?
Barrow Hill
@@Joyless It really looks like Dark Fall, that shit was my favorite as a kid
Jumpscares are often done poorly, but most people complaining about them are usually just wimps in my experience.
So 1.6 views but only 130 likes? What the hell people
i like the point but i feel like you stretched it out for wayyyy too long.
You're right but like I said, I've been talking about this stuff for years and I had to make sure that I was covering every possible counter argument that was gonna come my way. You'd be genuinely surprised at some of the stuff people say nowadays like the fact that "horror" doesn't mean scary. It sounds obvious but believe it or not it has to be said for some people.
Actually, according to some movie theorists there's no such thing as a "genre"
I like your content but your self loathing is too much. You're not alone, actually a lot of people feel the way you ddo. It'ss normal. Its not wrong. Be more self confident.