One of my favourites of the Welsh lines. The main traffic from Glyn Ceiriog was slate from the Cambrian and Wynne quarries, I wrote the history of the latter based on research by Graham Isherwood and occasionally used to lead the underground tours.
Happy birthday, I am also fond of these locos. Henry Dyke Dennis (1863-1944) certainly had his fingers in lots of pies as he had a Bagnall locomotive named after him on the Snailbeach & District Tramway and also (more infamously) was a Director of Gresford Colliery in Wrexham where Sir Theodore Martin was Chairman. Two shafts were sunk 50 yd (46 m) apart: the Dennis and the Martin. They were named after Sir Theodore Martin, the company chairman, and Mabel Dennis, wife of Henry Dennis, who had ceremonially cut the first sods for each of the respective shafts. Work was completed in 1911. The mine was one of the deepest in the Denbighshire Coalfield: the Dennis shaft reached depths of about 2,264 ft (690 m) and the Martin shaft about 2,252 ft (686 m). Henry had married into a very wealthy family and ultimately took control of the mine. On Saturday 22 September 1934 at 2:08 a.m. a violent explosion ripped through the Dennis section killing 263 miners and later 3 rescuers. Gresford is one of Britain's worst coal mining disasters: a controversial inquiry into the disaster did not conclusively identify a cause, though evidence suggested that failures in safety procedures, insufficient ventilation and poor mine management were contributory factors. The mines manager William Bonsall had been under pressure from the Dennis Family to increase profits following losses in 1933. The Mines agent Harrap who was supposed to be give independent oversight was a major shareholder so had a conflict of interest. The Dennis family also controversially had the mine sealed preventing access by investigators, leading to accusations of hiding evidence and only 11 bodies being recovered. Miners were intimidated with threats of sacking if they spoke to the inquiry. The only prosecution was to Bonsall, a fine of £150 for poor record keeping. Unlike his miners, Dennis was to have a fine grave. For a man who vainly named his interests after himself (not uncommon of those times) it is ironic his name is perhaps best remembered today in a traditional folk song made popular by Ewan McColl. th-cam.com/video/iJhmuUnsXWI/w-d-xo.html www.wrexham-history.com/henry-dyke-dennis-1863-1944/
I never knew that they were, by technicality, 'cab-forwards'. I mean, if you look at it, it appears a relatively conventional locomotive, only with tram plates and so forth. Very pretty little engines, I'm quite fond of them. Some strict specifications there, clearly safety and minimisation of disruption being held in high regard. A shame none survived, but a sight we hope to see again!
Very quaint little tram engines these are, I'm quite a fan of the operating style of the GVT but to hear of a hydraulic governor on a loco, that is a first. It's currently Thanksgiving here in the states so I wish you a happy one! Can't wait for the next video!
Reminds me of the locomotives of the Clogher Valley Railway in County Tyrone, they were 'cab forward' tramway tank engines too although I think they were built by Sharp Stewart.
You can get yourself a kit for one of these (sort of) from Peco if anyone wants one to go with their other 009 stuff given the recent intetest that scale has gained. Always rather liked these locos very charming look. There's the Aberdeen gas works locos that survive as well if anyone wanted to see some standard gauge locos that are fit for street working.
I'm currently building a 009 scale model of Sir Theodore, during my trip on the Talyllyn I got to ride in one of the G.V.T. coach's that they use as First class and inspiration has infected me! Definitely will be using this video for some reference
Interesting story. But perhaps it was the excitement of your birthday, congratulations on surviving another year, in the description you talk about loot and also a 4ft 4.25 inch gauge. But perhaps few read descriptions.
Nice video the hydraulic governor is interesting, from what I’ve heard and I might be wrong but the gauge was 2ft 4 1/2 inch since one of the glyn valley locos apparently traveled to the snailbeach railway since Henry Dennis was also part of that line. But it quickly went back due to the 1/2 inch of difference causing it to ride up on the rails and derail.
You're right about the gauge, it was 2ft 4 1/2". I have the out-of print W.J. Milner book from the 1980s on the GVT, and its local to me (5 minutes by train from Ruabon)
I found this online: The Glyn Valley Tramway started life as a horse drawn tramway in 1873. Increasing traffic as a result of the expansion of the local quarries brought about a change to steam traction in 1888. This change also produced a change in gauge from 2' 4¼" to 2' 4½".
@@moggy823 Yup, it was said that the locos used to relay the line (the first two locos from Snailbeach, also owned by Henry Dennis) were a contributing factor, although they were 2ft 4" gauge.
A very happy birthday! The question is, is the definition of a "Cab Forward" in the same liquid state as the definition of "Tram"? Where only the operating company can define either term by their operation rather than a strict definition. "This is a cab forward because we say it is."
I'm surprised that the protruding centre buffer was permitted on a tram engine. For instance the Corris locos (ordered before the Act changing the title from tramway to railway), had tramway type folding loop couplings to comply with the tramway requirement that couplings could be retracted when not in use. However the Corris locos did not have side skirts or condensers but the Board of Trade did insist on the addition of speed governors.
Love these trams and I really like the model Accucraft produced of them which Iv never got but I do have a couple of the charming coaches (kit built). Iv read stories of the trams running smokebox first on occasion is there any truth to these stories or was the practice of running cab first strictly observed?
I'd dearly love an Accucraft model. At first the practice of cab-forward was strictly observed and the engines were turned at the end of the line before running round. However, by the mid C20th that had pretty much been forgotten. So too many of the restrictions on making smoke and covering up the wheels etc. The GVT had a conventional ex-WW1 Baldwin and no one seems to have bothered about the Tramways Act.
These are intriguing little 2-4-0's. I did not know they existed until now, excellent video as always. Though I'm curious if the engines ever worked "Backwards" (or conventionally) at all with the Tramway act that brought the engines into existence. On the subject, if anyone smarter than me can tell me, why did the Class 04's on the Wisbech and Upwell not have to have forward cabs fitted like these engines, or dual enclosed cabs like other tram engines such as the J70?
The Tramways Act of 1870 was pretty vague in its requirements for tram engines (in fact the Act was so opaque that it didn't even define what a tramway actually *was*, it mostly focused upon how a tramway should operate in relation to local government)- it was up to the local authorities as to how the act was interpreted and enforced, resulting in a lack of consistency across the country.
Its been a while since I've read John Milners books, so I may be a little rusty... The GVT was technically opened under its own right, not under the tramways act, though the strict constrains on the loco design were similar. The line ran road side for most of the way between Chirk and Glyn Ceiriog and there where turntables at both these stations, so this section was supposedly always worked cab forward. However the rules weren't stickily adhered to and there are pictures of locos running conventionally. After Glyn Ceiriog the line left the road and continued down the valley to serve multiple quarries. This was goods only and there was no turntable at Hendry so the locos worked either way. I imagine in later life the rules got quietly forgotten especially after the Baldwin arrived as it was to long for the turntables and didn't comply with any of the tramway regulations anyway!
What would the crew do when the feed water became too hot for the injectors? Was this before pumps were able to push water into the boiler? Also, were the cylinders under the cab or under the smoke box? This is like a baby engine to the mallets modified to be cab forward for the California mountains. I saw the remaining loco at the Sacramento, California Railroad Museum a couple decades ago. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!
You're kinda off on the gauge, the railway was a 2ft 4+1⁄4in gauge line when it started, and when the steam locos were introduced, it was changed to 2ft 4+1⁄2in gauge.
'Ang On A Minit, Anthony ..... Since the locomotive is a cab-forward design, that makes it the _front_ of the locomotive. 02:08 With that in mind, shouldn't this locomotive be considered a 2-4-0, regardless of where the placement of the smoke and fire boxes are? Or is it convention that the smokebox is always the "start" or front of the locomotive. In that case, what about Beyer-Peacock Garrat locomotives, where the wheel arrangement is a 2-6-0+0-6-2 starting from the smokebox? Sorry to be a pain, I just had to ask. And a Happy Birthday to you, Anthony. 🎈🎉🥂
Well yes, it should. I did discuss all that in my original cut of the video but then edited it out as it was a bit confusing. The usual way of noting wheels/axles is from the "front", which is usually the chimney end. But not always.
The front surely is the end that leads when it travels! Therefore, with the cab leading, it should properly be known as a 2-4-0 despite the generally conventional layout that suggests otherwise.
![The Wall Song ร้องข้ามกำแพง | EP.215 | พาเวล นเรศ - พูห์ กฤติน | 17 ต.ค. 67 [1/5]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/IUzrjuf60P4/mqdefault.jpg)
Sooner rather than later..... well, we have a long way to go yet, but this sure would be epic! Lovely stuff! 😁
One of my favourites of the Welsh lines. The main traffic from Glyn Ceiriog was slate from the Cambrian and Wynne quarries, I wrote the history of the latter based on research by Graham Isherwood and occasionally used to lead the underground tours.
Happy birthday, I am also fond of these locos.
Henry Dyke Dennis (1863-1944) certainly had his fingers in lots of pies as he had a Bagnall locomotive named after him on the Snailbeach & District Tramway and also (more infamously) was a Director of Gresford Colliery in Wrexham where Sir Theodore Martin was Chairman. Two shafts were sunk 50 yd (46 m) apart: the Dennis and the Martin. They were named after Sir Theodore Martin, the company chairman, and Mabel Dennis, wife of Henry Dennis, who had ceremonially cut the first sods for each of the respective shafts. Work was completed in 1911. The mine was one of the deepest in the Denbighshire Coalfield: the Dennis shaft reached depths of about 2,264 ft (690 m) and the Martin shaft about 2,252 ft (686 m). Henry had married into a very wealthy family and ultimately took control of the mine. On Saturday 22 September 1934 at 2:08 a.m. a violent explosion ripped through the Dennis section killing 263 miners and later 3 rescuers. Gresford is one of Britain's worst coal mining disasters: a controversial inquiry into the disaster did not conclusively identify a cause, though evidence suggested that failures in safety procedures, insufficient ventilation and poor mine management were contributory factors. The mines manager William Bonsall had been under pressure from the Dennis Family to increase profits following losses in 1933. The Mines agent Harrap who was supposed to be give independent oversight was a major shareholder so had a conflict of interest. The Dennis family also controversially had the mine sealed preventing access by investigators, leading to accusations of hiding evidence and only 11 bodies being recovered. Miners were intimidated with threats of sacking if they spoke to the inquiry. The only prosecution was to Bonsall, a fine of £150 for poor record keeping. Unlike his miners, Dennis was to have a fine grave. For a man who vainly named his interests after himself (not uncommon of those times) it is ironic his name is perhaps best remembered today in a traditional folk song made popular by Ewan McColl. th-cam.com/video/iJhmuUnsXWI/w-d-xo.html
www.wrexham-history.com/henry-dyke-dennis-1863-1944/
Documentary on the Gresford Disaster
th-cam.com/video/0U9Y9gnnkKo/w-d-xo.html
Many happy returns Anthony and thankyou for bringing us these entertaining and educational gems.
I never knew that they were, by technicality, 'cab-forwards'. I mean, if you look at it, it appears a relatively conventional locomotive, only with tram plates and so forth. Very pretty little engines, I'm quite fond of them. Some strict specifications there, clearly safety and minimisation of disruption being held in high regard. A shame none survived, but a sight we hope to see again!
Very quaint little tram engines these are, I'm quite a fan of the operating style of the GVT but to hear of a hydraulic governor on a loco, that is a first.
It's currently Thanksgiving here in the states so I wish you a happy one!
Can't wait for the next video!
Happy Birthday💗🌺💗💗 💐🏵
Love this tram.
Fascinating.
A Really Useful Railway.
Maybe will be again one day! 😉
Reminds me of the locomotives of the Clogher Valley Railway in County Tyrone, they were 'cab forward' tramway tank engines too although I think they were built by Sharp Stewart.
You're a really useful engine.
Interesting as ever ..... thanks ,,,,,,
You can get yourself a kit for one of these (sort of) from Peco if anyone wants one to go with their other 009 stuff given the recent intetest that scale has gained.
Always rather liked these locos very charming look. There's the Aberdeen gas works locos that survive as well if anyone wanted to see some standard gauge locos that are fit for street working.
Fourdees offers a ready to run example of the locos in 009 now, as well as selling ready to run carriages. Peco also produce a kit for O-16.5 as well.
Some belting photos.
Thanks.
Glad you enjoyed it
I never knew there was footage of the tramway. Even if it is just that shot, it's still lovely to see.
happy day of birth old chap! ;)
Thank you kindly
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory my pleasure ;)
I'm currently building a 009 scale model of Sir Theodore, during my trip on the Talyllyn I got to ride in one of the G.V.T. coach's that they use as First class and inspiration has infected me!
Definitely will be using this video for some reference
Thanks. Looking forward to seeing the model!
Interesting story.
But perhaps it was the excitement of your birthday, congratulations on surviving another year, in the description you talk about loot and also a 4ft 4.25 inch gauge.
But perhaps few read descriptions.
Happy Birthday! Enjoy many more!
I'll try to!
Happy Birthday Anthony a great little engine.
Nice video the hydraulic governor is interesting, from what I’ve heard and I might be wrong but the gauge was 2ft 4 1/2 inch since one of the glyn valley locos apparently traveled to the snailbeach railway since Henry Dennis was also part of that line. But it quickly went back due to the 1/2 inch of difference causing it to ride up on the rails and derail.
You're right about the gauge, it was 2ft 4 1/2". I have the out-of print W.J. Milner book from the 1980s on the GVT, and its local to me (5 minutes by train from Ruabon)
I found this online:
The Glyn Valley Tramway started life as a horse drawn tramway in 1873. Increasing traffic as a result of the expansion of the local quarries brought about a change to steam traction in 1888. This change also produced a change in gauge from 2' 4¼" to 2' 4½".
@@moggy823 Yup, it was said that the locos used to relay the line (the first two locos from Snailbeach, also owned by Henry Dennis) were a contributing factor, although they were 2ft 4" gauge.
I was working from the BP works list!
A very happy birthday!
The question is, is the definition of a "Cab Forward" in the same liquid state as the definition of "Tram"? Where only the operating company can define either term by their operation rather than a strict definition. "This is a cab forward because we say it is."
Happy Birthday Anthony. 🍰🍺🚂
Your videos have certainly made me happy. 😁
I don't know what it is, but trams are just charming little locomotives.
Thoroughly enjoyable video, thank you so much and have a Happy Birthday!
Thank you very much!
I'm surprised that the protruding centre buffer was permitted on a tram engine. For instance the Corris locos (ordered before the Act changing the title from tramway to railway), had tramway type folding loop couplings to comply with the tramway requirement that couplings could be retracted when not in use. However the Corris locos did not have side skirts or condensers but the Board of Trade did insist on the addition of speed governors.
Really interesting. It beats the NPCRR No. 21 by more than 25 years. Can you do a review on NER No.66 Aerolite?
working on Aerolite
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory thanks!
Yes! I've always had a morbid curiosity with these Trams. Great video, very informative!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Happy Birthday Anthony. Thank you for your continued output of great videos.
Thank you very much!
Love these trams and I really like the model Accucraft produced of them which Iv never got but I do have a couple of the charming coaches (kit built). Iv read stories of the trams running smokebox first on occasion is there any truth to these stories or was the practice of running cab first strictly observed?
I'd dearly love an Accucraft model. At first the practice of cab-forward was strictly observed and the engines were turned at the end of the line before running round. However, by the mid C20th that had pretty much been forgotten. So too many of the restrictions on making smoke and covering up the wheels etc. The GVT had a conventional ex-WW1 Baldwin and no one seems to have bothered about the Tramways Act.
Nice compilation and commentary. Can you provide source for the film and photos?
Film came from the GVT Trust at Chirk and the photos are in my collection of old postcards.
These are intriguing little 2-4-0's. I did not know they existed until now, excellent video as always. Though I'm curious if the engines ever worked "Backwards" (or conventionally) at all with the Tramway act that brought the engines into existence. On the subject, if anyone smarter than me can tell me, why did the Class 04's on the Wisbech and Upwell not have to have forward cabs fitted like these engines, or dual enclosed cabs like other tram engines such as the J70?
The Tramways Act of 1870 was pretty vague in its requirements for tram engines (in fact the Act was so opaque that it didn't even define what a tramway actually *was*, it mostly focused upon how a tramway should operate in relation to local government)- it was up to the local authorities as to how the act was interpreted and enforced, resulting in a lack of consistency across the country.
Its been a while since I've read John Milners books, so I may be a little rusty... The GVT was technically opened under its own right, not under the tramways act, though the strict constrains on the loco design were similar.
The line ran road side for most of the way between Chirk and Glyn Ceiriog and there where turntables at both these stations, so this section was supposedly always worked cab forward. However the rules weren't stickily adhered to and there are pictures of locos running conventionally.
After Glyn Ceiriog the line left the road and continued down the valley to serve multiple quarries. This was goods only and there was no turntable at Hendry so the locos worked either way.
I imagine in later life the rules got quietly forgotten especially after the Baldwin arrived as it was to long for the turntables and didn't comply with any of the tramway regulations anyway!
What would the crew do when the feed water became too hot for the injectors? Was this before pumps were able to push water into the boiler? Also, were the cylinders under the cab or under the smoke box? This is like a baby engine to the mallets modified to be cab forward for the California mountains. I saw the remaining loco at the Sacramento, California Railroad Museum a couple decades ago. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!
They're conventional with cylinders under the smokebox, they just run "Backwards" in conventional terms as standard.
You're kinda off on the gauge, the railway was a 2ft 4+1⁄4in gauge line when it started, and when the steam locos were introduced, it was changed to 2ft 4+1⁄2in gauge.
I misread
Instead of Sir Theodore
I read Sir The Odor
I read the title as Sir Anthony Dawson. A matter of time, surely.
I'm a republican, soo.............
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory You'll get the joy of turning it down!
@@theimaginationstation1899 I could be the sixth Beatle!
Quick question: Are Traction engines considerd Chramptons if they have the axle behind the firebox?
nope. Cramptons Patent only applied to rail vehicles.
'Ang On A Minit, Anthony ..... Since the locomotive is a cab-forward design, that makes it the _front_ of the locomotive. 02:08 With that in mind, shouldn't this locomotive be considered a 2-4-0, regardless of where the placement of the smoke and fire boxes are? Or is it convention that the smokebox is always the "start" or front of the locomotive. In that case, what about Beyer-Peacock Garrat locomotives, where the wheel arrangement is a 2-6-0+0-6-2 starting from the smokebox? Sorry to be a pain, I just had to ask. And a Happy Birthday to you, Anthony. 🎈🎉🥂
Well yes, it should. I did discuss all that in my original cut of the video but then edited it out as it was a bit confusing. The usual way of noting wheels/axles is from the "front", which is usually the chimney end. But not always.
@@AnthonyDawsonHistory _which is usually the chimney end. But not always_ - I got a chuckle out of that.
The front surely is the end that leads when it travels! Therefore, with the cab leading, it should properly be known as a 2-4-0 despite the generally conventional layout that suggests otherwise.
@@caroleast9636 Agreed.