Ruling 7 - Cheating Investigation
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 10 ก.พ. 2025
- This is a scenario from a Mock Tournament conference, where experienced judges role play as players and give feedback to newer judges after hearing their rulings. How would you rule in this scenario? Just a Missed Trigger? Or is it something more serious?
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I feel bad for most of the judges in these videos because they are put on the spot and seem to have very little experience with these situations. I respect all of them for coming on stream and giving us all a great experience and knowledge points! Thanks to the folks playing the judge role and the players for describing everything after a ruling is issued!
But that's why they are participating in these exercises. So that they can expand their knowledge. It seems like these are times where lower level judges working their way up.
Is this on twitch?
Yeah I agree Fatty I do as well and as I said a few years ago I am a judge from another card game yugioh and only like this judge play commander as i do not have time to play other formats like modern or standard unless my friends need me for a 3v3 event then I will play in the modern seat either goblinstorm or pirate aggro I did also say that in yugioh we don't have any events like this to learn and at that point your on your own unless you have a mentor to get you started which I wish we had but what I like to do then is that when a new judge runs the event I like to ask a few simple ruling questions to see how they would rule it and then after the tourney I would sit down and ask them what they were thinking about when they gave the ruling that they gave like for example a missed trigger minus the cheating part of course and the how to fix the game state and if it can what can be done about it and if not what's the accepted gamestate penalty if any at all
@@Mentecl3 yeah sorry about that I was born with a learning disability that affects my ability to properly format sentences so I have an autocorrect add-on that was made for me to fix it but I did that and this response on my phone so I don't have the access to my computer system to use the auto correct right now
The point is to be in a situation you are unfamiliar with and learn from it. If you would do everything perfect, it wouldnt really be a practice.
all of this for "just a missed trigger" is insane and amazing.
love how you guys role play this scenario.
Hey look it's me again, haha I appreciate you helping me out with this one, I have not really done any events at all so this was fantastic for me!
It's okay, little baby boi. Good job
I want to be part of a mock cheating investigation so bad!
If you are interested in hosting a Mock Tournament conference in your area, send me a message, I'll help you set one up. (This goes for anyone, not just OP)
Any chance we can get the follow up explanation? :D
RIGHT? That end made me sad. I remember something along the lines of the word "cheater" being a bad one but I'm on edge waiting for the sequel.
Yeah same I want to see that too
Check out this video for the exciting conclusion: th-cam.com/video/byQL157cIBM/w-d-xo.html
I would consider that the guy that made the mistake and supposed cheating, was also the guy that called the judge, so they figured out the missed trigger a turn later (couple seconds) and then called the judge themselves.
If they really wanted to cheat and get away with it, they wouldnt call a judge on themselves immediately after.
Don't cut me off there!!! I wanna hear the rest! :D
That does not sound like cheating to me, grinders play multible decks usually and nothing indicated cheating in the investigation. More likely the opponent doesnt have an answer and seems to go for an easy win.
That's what I was thinking too.
It's a tough spot to identify a cheater. The yagmoth's player could be trying to incriminate the other one.
But as they said, there's several factors to keep in mind.
Same scenario but the Rest In Peace player activated his land to return the hammer to his hand on his next turn and the opponent calls a judge because he’s returning a card from his gy with Rest In Peace on the battlefield.
@@Playingwithproxies Even then it may not be intentional.
@@dasfabelwesen what if he subconscious only makes mistakes when they are beneficial
are we going to get the full deep dive on the ruling soon?
I too would like to see this
Check out this video for the exciting conclusion: th-cam.com/video/byQL157cIBM/w-d-xo.html
based on my understanding of missed triggers and other mock situations i have some pre watch thoughts:
was the trigger actually missed? was anything done to acknowledge the trigger. there seems to be one exiled card so why was that card exiled? ask the players what happened when rest in peace etb. if nothing was done then it's a missed trigger and opponent gets the opportunity to put it on the stack or just skip it entirely.
it could be interesting if it wasnt missed, ask did the opponent of rest in peace if they recognized the trigger being acknowledged. if the cards were quietly exiled then that could be missed because the deck hides the gy. it wouldn't be a missed trigger but it cant be cheating if the opponent thought it was missed and just didn't see the cards get moved (i dislike how the gy is hidden behind the library instead of always in front like in yugioh)
ask the opponent if they know what rest in peace does. particularly the continuous effect. if they do know then ask why didnt they exile. i guess this is more of a formality than anything. regardless if they know or not if they activate an ability with a continuous effect on the field and that activation was perfectly legal, the consequences are their problem. not reading opponent's card doesn't let you take back your play.
im not sure what the remedy would be if the trigger wasn't missed. i think if the trigger did get acknowledged then the gy should be exiled. that sounds like a reasonable corrective measure that wouldn't break anything. and there might be an infraction from the failing to maintain gamestate? i doubt there's a chance to catch someone cheating here unless they straight fess up that they intentionally ignored rest in peace.
other question would be after the rest in peace trigger resolved (if it did), was anything done to the gy? like was something returned from the gy or something. still dont know what the remedy would be if like a card was retrieved from the gy to hand although i expect it might just get tossed back to exile.
Ruling and policy is so interesting. different card games have different judges and ruling structure but i think the magic judge system is pretty peak. it's a solid system that has good foundations (thanks comprehensive rulebook) compared to some other games.
edit: well that didn't go in a direction i expected. i definitely would not suspect any cheating at all in this case. for one this is self reported and the opponent got a chance to choose to exile all the gy. effect + opponet's choice of alternative is always strictly worse that just doing the effect. also stoneforge is in hand so what's the point. and people play sloppy when they're tired after a long day at a tournament that's just how human endurance works.
How about it's to late. Your turn is up and you didn't do something your card says then you missed out. Continue play
I'd love to hear what the actual answer was and if he was indeed cheating. I heard the player say towards the start that they thought rest in peace was optional.
Check out this video for the exciting conclusion: th-cam.com/video/byQL157cIBM/w-d-xo.html
It is a warning for BOTH, one did not kept track of the state of the board when he was milling (he did not respect the RIP)and the other did not follow the trigger that is not optional.
Wouldn't it just be a double warning and grist mill would be exiled
easy ruling. roll back the left players turn, exile the graveyards, give right player warning, continue. its not an optional trigger. it should have been done, right player failed to maintain the field.
As the players (Who are actually experienced judges, this is an exercise to train new judges) stated, mandatory triggers that are missed are restored at the opponents discretion. They don't HAVE to be restored. The tricky thing is if the opponent knew it was a mandatory trigger and said nothing, then that's illegal, he should mention it if he KNOWS its mandatory. But if the opponent thought it was optional or just doesn't know the card, then it doesn't have to be restored, its at the opponents discretion. The only ones that have to be restored are replacement effects like 'All cards that go to graveyard are exiled instead' that Rest In Peace has
Amy and Nick are playing multiplayer. Amy controls Harvester of Souls and Grizzly Bears, and attacks Nick, who controls his own Grizzly Bears and no other creatures. He blocks her bears with his own Grizzly Bears, but can't avoid taking lethal combat damage himself. In single player the game would end as soon as SBAs were checked, however there are two more people at the table, still in the game.
Amy says that both bears died, so her Harvester has two death triggers and she draws two cards, however Nick says that since he was eliminated at the same time his bears left the game entirely, and so never got put into his graveyard during the round of SBAs which caused him to lose. Who's right? How many cards does Amy draw?
State Based Actions happen all at the same time. So Nicks Grizzly Bears hit the grave at the same time he loses the game. It is only after he loses the game he removes everything. So Amy gets both her triggers.
Nick doesn't leave the game until after he has lost the game. At which point the bears are in the grave.
Nick could have also conceded the game after declare blockers step but before damage is dealt preventing either bear from dying and preventing any card draw.
Could have also just not blocked, but that wouldn't be very interesting.
I always think of the game as a set of rules, just because a rule was forgotten the game is played a certian way, look at mtgo, you cannot just "forget rest in peace" as it enters, the graveyards are exiled. especially in paper when it was caught this soon, imagine if they called a judge 6 turns later when something has been reanimated and attacked and blocked ect. this is cut and dry, exile the yards.
Except the rules specify what should happen when there is a missed trigger. And that is the opponent gets to decide if the trigger goes on the stack.